Santuzza: Mezzo or Soprano
SeattleJohn
grabs. Is it a dramatic soprano part or a mezzo part and who does it
better? Eileen Farrell was about the best I've heard in a live
broadcast from the Met..
CHSIII
live Met braodcast from 1971, with the young Enrico di Giuseppe), and though
Zajick sings it magnificently, her involvement doesn't come close to
Fiorenza's. Also not to be missed are any of Simionato's live
performances - when ti comes to the curse, Simionato is without equal.
The best soprano Santuzza in my time (imo) was Elinor Ross. Of course,
Tebaldi's recording with Bjoerling is fabulous, and I wish she had done the
role at least for a season at the Met - perhaps she thought she would give
too much to this role live - her involvement on stage often precariously
hovered between rock-solid technique, and total abandon.
<mezz...@mezzoman.co.uk> wrote in message
news:W76dnTZNfe_FRCnX...@giganews.com...
>
> Mezzo definitely! Cossotto more or less owned the role in her heyday, I
> saw
> her do it at the Garden and have yet to see or hear better. Check out the
> fab dvd conducted by Karajan. Rita Hunter had a pretty good stab at it
> though, and more recently also at ENO Jane Dutton was very good indeed.
> Then there was Troyanos...
> --
> mezzomanUK
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
mezz...@mezzoman.co.uk wrote:
> Mezzo definitely! Cossotto more or less owned the role in her heyday, I saw
> her do it at the Garden and have yet to see or hear better. Check out the
> fab dvd conducted by Karajan. Rita Hunter had a pretty good stab at it
> though, and more recently also at ENO Jane Dutton was very good indeed.
> Then there was Troyanos...
I agree, I prefer a mezzo in the role (probably because I WAS a mezzo,
when I was an aspiring opera singer). However, every vocal score I've
ever seen lists Santuzza as a soprano.
Pat
> Santuzza is about the only role for women that seems truly up for
> grabs.
Oh, I wouldn't say that at all. Rossini's Rosina, I have read, was
written for a "coloratura contralto", but is usually sung by mezzos,
and has also been sung by any number of famous sopranos -- including
Callas, Sills, and Battle.
A number of other examples come to mind (Carmen, Kundry, Adalgisa,
etc) , but I think 'Rosina' is one of the clearest.
Pat
mysterytenor
> I agree - Cossotto was the best Santuzza (if you can get it, don't miss the
> live Met braodcast from 1971, with the young Enrico di Giuseppe), and though
> Zajick sings it magnificently, her involvement doesn't come close to
> Fiorenza's. Also not to be missed are any of Simionato's live
> performances - when ti comes to the curse, Simionato is without equal.
>
> The best soprano Santuzza in my time (imo) was Elinor Ross. Of course,
> Tebaldi's recording with Bjoerling is fabulous, and I wish she had done the
> role at least for a season at the Met - perhaps she thought she would give
> too much to this role live - her involvement on stage often precariously
> hovered between rock-solid technique, and total abandon.
>
>
> news:W76dnTZNfe_FRCnX...@giganews.com...
>
>
>
> > Mezzo definitely! Cossotto more or less owned the role in her heyday, I
> > saw
> > her do it at the Garden and have yet to see or hear better. Check out the
> > fab dvd conducted by Karajan. Rita Hunter had a pretty good stab at it
> > though, and more recently also at ENO Jane Dutton was very good indeed.
> > Then there was Troyanos...
> > --
> > mezzomanUK
I agree that Cossotto was the best after Simionato, but I was lucky
enough to see Simionato in three performances of Cav, twice with
Bjoerling and once with Peerce, and she was the best Santuzza I ever
saw.
Ed
Jonathan Ellis
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:h9367...@news3.newsguy.com...
I'm personally a fan of a soprano in the role, rather than a mezzo. If only
because the majority of mezzos sound, well, just too - well - self-assured
and "grown-up".
Right now I'm working fairly heavily in the "really good amateur / semi-pro"
opera scene. And the best performance of Santuzza that I've seen at THIS
level, at least, was by a pretty amazing 22-year-old high soprano, just out
of university (did a degree - not even a music degree, either - although she
is just going to the Royal Academy of Music in London to start a
postgraduate Masters.) Not just singing, but acting, as well, made a really
great job of playing the role as a "panicking, possibly pregnant
18-year-old". And when the role had been open to auditions, her chosen
audition piece was Norina's aria from Don Pasquale, which tells you what
kind of voice she is: Santuzza was pretty much at the lower end of her pitch
range, and the more extreme end of her emotional range, but she nailed the
part beautifully...
Actually in the same company, we have an older and more "polished"
sounding... well... soprano is what she calls herself, but with a range wide
enough to take on not just mezzo but contralto roles too, and a speaking
voice so low that it's almost baritone (she wants to audition as Micaela for
our next production of Carmen - but our director wants her to audition as
Carmen! And she could sing both roles equally well, at opposite ends of her
range, and has recently sung as Violetta both in English and Italian with
two other semi-pro companies...) On a different night, she also sang the
role of Santuzza with us. Actually a better-trained voice than the younger
woman, but I actually felt the slightly rawer edge on the younger woman's
voice made for the better fit for the role: moreover she was incomparably
the better actor, both vocally and physically...
(Better still, there were no catfights between our sopranos over the part -
they actually became best of friends.)
Jonathan.
Richergar
canto roles - there really were not 'mezzos' then, and it was either a
soprano, whatever that meant, or a contralto, whatever that meant. The
roles today are often not sung in key when sung by sopranos, or are
sung with such extensive interpolations that they are really being
'revised' for the voice type. Adalgisa was initially, of course,
written for a soprano, as were a number of the 'seconda donna' roles
in the bel canto repertoire, and the distinction wasn't really made
(Giovanna sings higher than Anna in the Bolena duet, for example).
But I think that you're certainly right about Kundry and less so,
Carmen, which I think is kind of a graveyard for sopranos (with the
one obvious historical exception). It is never really high 'enough',
even with the soprano interpolations into the second act ensemble, and
the third act can be a killer in the card scene. I think that a lot of
the lesser-performed Massenets (and in fact, to some extent Charlotte)
are roles that can be sung by soprano or mezzo.
Also the Composer is or has been in the past pretty frequently sung
by mezzo - Stauss never met an upper fifth of the voice he didn't
like.
Bob M.
> Santuzza is about the only role for women that seems truly up for
> grabs.
How about Lady Macbeth?
Bob
Richergar
do a good job in this role live (as opposed to recordings) without
significant transpositions. I am not talking about ducking the Db,
which lots of sopranos seem to do, but just the general tessitura,
which sounds more mezzo-ish than it is. The one exception I can think
of is the remarkable live performance by Christa Ludwig, when she was
on the elevator on the way up....it is a great performance, but it has
always also sounded to me like she is singing it under the influence
of a B-12 shot or something else, so much in overdrive is she.. You
certainly can't sing Trionfa from the original version live (I know
that Flo does so on the recording) if you're not a soprano.
wagnerfan
news:d2eac196-2574-4723...@o13g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
I may have my head handed to me, but I have never really heard a mezzo
do a good job in this role live (as opposed to recordings) without
significant transpositions. I am not talking about ducking the Db,
which lots of sopranos seem to do, but just the general tessitura,
which sounds more mezzo-ish than it is. The one exception I can think
of is the remarkable live performance by Christa Ludwig, when she was
on the elevator on the way up....it is a great performance, but it has
always also sounded to me like she is singing it under the influence
of a B-12 shot or something else, so much in overdrive is she.. You
certainly can't sing Trionfa from the original version live (I know
that Flo does so on the recording) if you're not a soprano.
Even Cossotto sings it (Trionfai) shrilly on the on the EMI set. IMHO the
aria is really not very good and can no way be compared to its replacement.
Wagner fan
Richergar
been on Voce and also I think now on Chandos. I have to tell you that
people don't always like Hunter, and I get that it's not the last word
in Italianate singing, but I have a real soft spot for her in this
(and in Wagner, although I defer to you on it) , and recall her as
very good with it.
The new book by Phillip Gossett has a very interesting take on the
aria, and in fact on the entire set of revisions....he tends to prefer
the opera as originally given, and feels like pieces like La Luce,
however special on their own grounds, don't entirely fit in. I am not
sure I have a position on it, and find that Gossett on many cases
takes almost deliberately provocative positions to try to prove a
point about musicologists and how the performing world needs them. But
it is point of view.
My only real problem with either version of Macbeth is that for me it
doesn't 'end' right. There's no way that after the magic of the
Sleepwalking Scene that you can go back to the 'fight', no matter how
brief it is. The choral ending helps, but somehow what was going in a
very dark direction becomes a little banal, at least to my
ears....maybe he tackled it a little two early....imagine it with an
Otello type ending.
Best
On Sep 21, 2:30 pm, "wagnerfan" <wagner...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Richergar" <richer...@gmail.com> wrote in message
wagnerfan
There also a version with Rita Hunter from a BBC transmission that's
been on Voce and also I think now on Chandos. I have to tell you that
people don't always like Hunter, and I get that it's not the last word
in Italianate singing, but I have a real soft spot for her in this
(and in Wagner, although I defer to you on it) , and recall her as
very good with it.
The new book by Phillip Gossett has a very interesting take on the
aria, and in fact on the entire set of revisions....he tends to prefer
the opera as originally given, and feels like pieces like La Luce,
however special on their own grounds, don't entirely fit in. I am not
sure I have a position on it, and find that Gossett on many cases
takes almost deliberately provocative positions to try to prove a
point about musicologists and how the performing world needs them. But
it is point of view.
My only real problem with either version of Macbeth is that for me it
doesn't 'end' right. There's no way that after the magic of the
Sleepwalking Scene that you can go back to the 'fight', no matter how
brief it is. The choral ending helps, but somehow what was going in a
very dark direction becomes a little banal, at least to my
ears....maybe he tackled it a little two early....imagine it with an
Otello type ending.
Best
I have never understood that idea that one should stick to the original
versions for consistency when those versions contain material that is
sub-par. (Yes I think the aria Trionfai is a piece of junk in the worst
showcase tradition). I must say that the version of Macbeth I originally
heard was the usual revised version without the ballet but with Macbeth's
final aria thrown in for the baritone's sake and I never noticed any kind on
inconsistency. I do enjoy the original version with Hunter on Chandos but I
always go away missing the superior revisions Verdi composed. My favorite
early Verdi opera by far. And yes I agree the final chorus is not Verdi at
his most inspired but the opera as a whole scination for me unmatched by the
other early Vrdi operas.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Richergar wrote:
> I may have my head handed to me, but I have never really heard a mezzo
> do a good job in this role live (as opposed to recordings) without
> significant transpositions. I am not talking about ducking the Db,
WHAT "Db"? (I assume we're still discussing Santuzza). I don't recall
anything higher than a Bb in my piano score. I'm not sure there IS a
pitch assigned to her final shriek when she learns of Turridu's death,
but I doubt whether any singer with an ounce of acting ability would try
to SING it!
Richergar
The thread had kind of drifted to Lady Macbeth, based on someone's
comments about Lady also being a role that either sopranos or mezzos
can sing,
On Sep 21, 3:02 pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
Pat
> On Sep 18, 5:14 pm, SeattleJohn <johnmixonrobe...@msn.com> wrote:> Santuzza is about the only role for women that seems truly up for
> > grabs.
>
> ========================
I think both Donna Elvira and Zerlina fit into this category as well,
usually done by sopranos, but occasionally by mezzos. In fact I think
Mozart wrote Zerlina as a sort of mezzo-soubrette role -- which is
rather a rarity, I think.
================
I was going to mention this over the weeked, but I forgot, and it kind
of ties into this subject. I was browsing the net looking for details
on early Bayreuth performances, and came across some interesting
information on Marianne Brandt, who was, IIRC, the first Brangane,
the first Kundry, the first American Siegfried Erda, a magnificent
Ortrud, and all the rest.
Anyway, I was shocked by two little bits of trivia I ran across --
first that Brandt sang one of the Valkryies in an early (not sure if
it was the debut) performance of "Walkure." Can you imagine getting a
singer of that stature to sing one of the Valkyries today?? She must
have been very devoted to RW's artistic goals.
The other thing of interest that I ran across was that Brandt made her
first big splash (so to speak) singing Recha/Rachel in "La Juive."
It's difficult to imagine a modern singer being a great success at
both Rachel and Ortrud, no?
While I was Googling Marianne Brandt, I ran across "The Assoluta Voice
in Opera, 1797-1847, a book by our old friend Geoffrey Riggs with
which I was unfamiliar. It seems to have been written just a few
years ago, and quite a bit of it is online -- preview chapters, I
guess they call them. Very interesting reading, if you like reading
about singers you can never hear, as I do.
Pat
.
Richergar
think I posted on it here years ago, although perhaps that was on
Opera L - and I find myself going back to it fairly frequently. Well
worth the effort imho.
Richergar
Prague and Vienna, the Zerlinas were what we would consider sopranos.
One starred early as Susanna, and the other as the Countess (in
Figaro). Apparently Mozart considered Zerlina the star (prima donna)
of the opera.
It is pretty well known that Patti carried the role of Zerlina for
most of her career, which is why I put myself on this goose chase. One
thing I read with some amusement, though, recently, was Walsh's book
on the Monte Carlo opera....apparently, when they got Patti late in
her years, and early in theirs, for a season, she offered a few roles,
and tried to push Zerlina on them. She preferred this role because it
required the least of her, and of course they demurred. One of the
tantalizing things is that the book talks about the fact that Zerlina
only had one aria and one duet....now, Zerlina has two arias, and
several duets, so one wonders always how much these things were cut
anyway.
One question...there is apparently a duet with Zerlina and I think
Masetto that is almost never sung, where she theatens to castrate him.
I don't think I have ever heard it. Has anyone ever heard it? I am
sure it is on some complete recordings.
wagnerfan
I did a little checking on this because I was curious and in both
Prague and Vienna, the Zerlinas were what we would consider sopranos.
One starred early as Susanna, and the other as the Countess (in
Figaro). Apparently Mozart considered Zerlina the star (prima donna)
of the opera.
It is pretty well known that Patti carried the role of Zerlina for
most of her career, which is why I put myself on this goose chase. One
thing I read with some amusement, though, recently, was Walsh's book
on the Monte Carlo opera....apparently, when they got Patti late in
her years, and early in theirs, for a season, she offered a few roles,
and tried to push Zerlina on them. She preferred this role because it
required the least of her, and of course they demurred. One of the
tantalizing things is that the book talks about the fact that Zerlina
only had one aria and one duet....now, Zerlina has two arias, and
several duets, so one wonders always how much these things were cut
anyway.
One question...there is apparently a duet with Zerlina and I think
Masetto that is almost never sung, where she theatens to castrate him.
I don't think I have ever heard it. Has anyone ever heard it? I am
sure it is on some complete recordings.
Yes that duet was first recorded commercially for the Leinsdorf set and has
been recorded a couple times since - minor Mozart definitely. Wagner fan