The C in "Di quella pira"
david...@aol.com
The tenor for whom the role of Manrico was written not only did not
have a high C, he had trouble with B's and B flats. Throughout the
score of Trovatore supplied for the tenor, Verdi was very careful in
every duet with Leonora to make sure there was an ossia low enough that
the tenor could manage it. Some years later another tenor specifically
asked Verdi if he could interpolate a C at the end of "Di quella pira."
"Yes, give the audience a gift," was Verdi's reply.
At one point Riccardo Muti was rehearsing for a perfomance of
Rigoletto. The tenor wanted to interpolate a B at the end of "La donna
e mobile." Muti wouldn't let him, but, on opening night, the tenor
avenged himself. Late in the last act when Rigoletto, unawares, is
dragging the sack with Gilda's body in it, he hears the Duke singing
"La donna e mobile" in the distance, and this time "La donna" ends with
a high B, which the tenor is supposed to sing softly as if falling
asleep. Muti's tenor seized on the B, sang it as loud as he could and
held onto it as long as he could.
-david gable
The Handelmaniac
david...@aol.com wrote:
> The f "Di quella pira."
> "Yes, give the audience a gift," was Verdi's reply.
>
> At one point Riccardo Muti was rehearsing for a perfomance of
> Rigoletto. The tenor wanted to interpolate a B at the end of "La donna
> e mobile." Muti wouldn't let him, but, on opening night, the tenor
> avenged himself. Late in the last act when Rigoletto, unawares, is
> dragging the sack with Gilda's body in it, he hears the Duke singing
> "La donna e mobile" in the distance, and this time "La donna" ends with
> a high B, which the tenor is supposed to sing softly as if falling
> asleep. Muti's tenor seized on the B, sang it as loud as he could and
> held onto it as long as he could.
>
> -david gable
SADLY, Muti senza acuti comes to the Met for Attila in 2 yrs..That will
be a bore.....no high notes...The man is a disgrace.CH
david...@aol.com
The Handelmaniac wrote:
> SADLY, Muti senza acuti comes to the Met for Attila in 2 yrs..That will
> be a bore.....no high notes...
> The man is a disgrace
"Disgrace" isn't quite the right word. He suffers from an unfortunate
form of Puritanism, but "disgrace" is not quite fair. (He may also
change his tune somewhat if he reads the new book on performance
practice in 19th-century Italy that's about to come out.)
(You say nothing about Verdi's remark.)
-david gable
Andrew T. Kay
> The Handelmaniac wrote:
>
> > SADLY, Muti senza acuti comes to the Met for Attila in 2 yrs..That will
> > be a bore.....no high notes...
>
> > The man is a disgrace
>
> "Disgrace" isn't quite the right word. He suffers from an unfortunate
> form of Puritanism, but "disgrace" is not quite fair. (He may also
> change his tune somewhat if he reads the new book on performance
> practice in 19th-century Italy that's about to come out.)
A couple of points and a question, and the question can be fielded by
anyone who cares to answer it:
(1) Are there unwritten high notes in ATTILA that Met patrons who care
about ATTILA are going to expect and miss? My question is sincere. The
work was an obscurity until recent decades -- I am not aware that it
has any established "Di quella pira high-C"-type performance tradition
that will be at issue. Then again, I suppose it's possible to throw
spurious high notes into any solo of any opera, if the conductor is
submissive enough.
(2) I'm sure many here shared Charlie's reaction to the announcement
that Muti would be making his Met debut in a couple of seasons. My
response was different -- I think the debut itself is a good thing,
even an occasion for some excitement, and I'll want to hear the
broadcast if they're still doing them by that point. But I was dismayed
he wanted to do *that* opera. I know it's become one of his
specialties; I just don't share his fondness for it at all (and I've
heard him conduct it). Maybe he just wanted to do a Verdi opera that
the Met doesn't mount every third season.
(3) In response to Charlie's prediction that the performance will be
boring, I'm tempted to launch into my usual counterpoint on the
unwritten-high-notes debate (What's disgraceful about performing music
as it was actually published? Isn't it conceivable that a performance
including traditional unwritten high notes could also be boring, and
one without them could be exciting? Can't a conductor who frowns on
unwritten high notes still deliver the goods in matters of shaping,
accents, rhythm, precision, and color [which, IMO, this one frequently
does], to say nothing of whatever qualities the singers might bring to
the table?), but those parenthetical rhetoricals will have to do for
the moment.
Todd K
Silverfin
david...@aol.com wrote:
> At one point Riccardo Muti was rehearsing for a perfomance of
> Rigoletto. The tenor wanted to interpolate a B at the end of "La donna
> e mobile." Muti wouldn't let him, but, on opening night, the tenor
> avenged himself. Late in the last act when Rigoletto, unawares, is
> dragging the sack with Gilda's body in it, he hears the Duke singing
> "La donna e mobile" in the distance, and this time "La donna" ends with
> a high B, which the tenor is supposed to sing softly as if falling
> asleep. Muti's tenor seized on the B, sang it as loud as he could and
> held onto it as long as he could.
>
What a twat.
In orchestras at least, it is very much not the done thing to
play something significantly differently in performance to how
it was in rehearsals. Especially if it doesn't fit with the rest
of the music.
But maybe it's different for opera singers?
SIlverfin
Ken Meltzer
Andrew T. Kay wrote:
> (3) In response to Charlie's prediction that the performance will be
> boring, I'm tempted to launch into my usual counterpoint on the
> unwritten-high-notes debate (What's disgraceful about performing music
> as it was actually published? Isn't it conceivable that a performance
> including traditional unwritten high notes could also be boring, and
> one without them could be exciting? Can't a conductor who frowns on
> unwritten high notes still deliver the goods in matters of shaping,
> accents, rhythm, precision, and color [which, IMO, this one frequently
> does], to say nothing of whatever qualities the singers might bring to
> the table?), but those parenthetical rhetoricals will have to do for
> the moment.
I saw Muti conduct opera twice. Both were concert performances with
the Philadelphia Orchestra of Macbeth and Nabucco. They were anything
but boring. The execution of the music, by both the singers and the
orchestra, was absolutely breathtaking. In fact, I think that early
Verdi is one of Muti strengths. He really captures the excitement and
energy of these works, all the while securing beautiful balance and
tonal quality.
Would I have preferred that these performances have included some
unwritten high notes? Absolutely. Would I have rather heard a
slovenly performance with unwritten high notes? Absolutely not.
Best,
Ken
Ken Meltzer
The Handelmaniac wrote:
> SADLY, Muti senza acuti comes to the Met for Attila in 2 yrs..That will
> be a bore.....no high notes...The man is a disgrace.CH
Charlie-
Besides the fact that Muti does not allow unwritten high notes, what
else do you find disgraceful about his conducting?
Best,
Ken
mer...@icon.co.za
The Handelmaniac wrote:
>
>
> SADLY, Muti senza acuti comes to the Met for Attila in 2 yrs..That will
> be a bore.....no high notes...The man is a disgrace.CH
Is this not rich? Someone who can't tell a C from an A on a score
calling
Muti "a disgrace"!
--
Jeffrey
Ken Meltzer
david...@aol.com wrote:
> The tenor for whom the role of Manrico was written not only did not
> have a high C, he had trouble with B's and B flats. Throughout the
> score of Trovatore supplied for the tenor, Verdi was very careful in
> every duet with Leonora to make sure there was an ossia low enough that
> the tenor could manage it. Some years later another tenor specifically
> asked Verdi if he could interpolate a C at the end of "Di quella pira."
> "Yes, give the audience a gift," was Verdi's reply.
Verdi then continued: "And for an extra special gift, transpose the
cabaletta down a half-step or, even better, a full step. Sing only one
verse, and please ignore the rhythms and markings I've written out.
When your solo part ends and the chorus comes in, make sure not to sing
your part of the ensemble ("Madre infelice"), so that you can 'load up'
for the B or B-flat that is soon approaching.
Now, let me hear it. Perfect!"
Best,
Ken
capa0...@aol.com
david...@aol.com wrote:
. Muti's tenor seized on the B, sang it as loud as he could and
> held onto it as long as he could.
>
> -david gable
I think the tenor showed contempt for both the director and his
colleagues. In effect he's saying "It's about me!"
This is the type of artistic egocentricity that gave prima donna its
modern meaning.
I guess I would make an exception if the singer had been led to believe
he could sing the aria one way and was double-crossed at the last
moment.
Otherwise the singer is just one element in an entire package --
principal singers - chorus - orchestra - dance - set design - lighting
- costuming and all the rest --- whose many other elements may all
have been directed toward a certain artistic effect. When the singer
goes off on his own, he's jeopardizing the overall presentation.
It's a bit like a priest pouring water and wine behind his back -- it
may be impressive, but it's out of place in the big picture.
Pat
Ken Meltzer
david...@aol.com wrote:
> At one point Riccardo Muti was rehearsing for a perfomance of
> Rigoletto. The tenor wanted to interpolate a B at the end of "La donna
> e mobile." Muti wouldn't let him, but, on opening night, the tenor
> avenged himself. Late in the last act when Rigoletto, unawares, is
> dragging the sack with Gilda's body in it, he hears the Duke singing
> "La donna e mobile" in the distance, and this time "La donna" ends with
> a high B, which the tenor is supposed to sing softly as if falling
> asleep. Muti's tenor seized on the B, sang it as loud as he could and
> held onto it as long as he could.
Would that be "B" as in "Bonisolli"? (;-)
Best,
Ken
Donald Grove
tenor, but ambiguous as to whether he was saying that the high C
should be taken. He was giving that particular tenor a reason for
taking it that left the decision with the tenor. Verdi didn't say
"You are singing the part as I intended it to be sung."
To me, the interpolated high C in Di Quella Pira is part of the
"excitement factor" in a performance. I would say that if the high C
isn't going to be taken (or taken twice, my favorite way, but not
always safe for the singer) then there had better be some other
quality about the performance which makes up for it. Truthfully, I
have yet to hear a tenor do the part justice, let alone the C, so the
C is just one of many factors. I'd even settle for an exciting
"Deserto sulla terra" (I've only heard a few performances of Trovatore
at the Met starting in the mid '80s, none of Manrico's had the power
or intensity of Corelli, or even Bjorling. The Trovatore's that I've
seen that were exciting were carried by the Azucena: Zajick, or in one
performance the Di Luna: Nucci).
I also agree with that poster who said that most of us wouldn't know
where the high notes are ordinarily interpolated in Atila.
There is a long history of singers picking and choosing how they will
do things, and an long history of composers, conductors, impresarii,
intendants and managers resisting or supporting such activity. The
singers who want to sing those notes are usually correct if they say
that the audience wants to hear them. Sometimes that is only the
singers ego, but I think it's generally true. Even when a Manrico is
downright awful, there are people who will judge him on whether he
takes the C or not. Most houses expect it to happen and won't hire a
Manrico with no C.
On 26 Jul 2006 22:40:42 -0700, "david...@aol.com"
donpaolo
(when sung correctly & freely & ringing & held) are pleasing, beautiful,
thrilling! Why is the man such an anhedonist?
DonPaolo
"The Handelmaniac" <vissida...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153975261.5...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
wkas...@comcast.net
donpaolo wrote:
> Overall, I like his conducting, but c'MON already, Riccardo, - high notes
> (when sung correctly & freely & ringing & held) are pleasing, beautiful,
> thrilling! Why is the man such an anhedonist?
Probably because he understands that there are lots of tenors out there
whose high notes aren't sung correctly, or freely, or ringingly, but
are simply bellowed, and often inappropriately so (David's example
illustrates this, I think). Better that such singers concentrate on
what the composer wrote, before they ruin things further.
Bill
donpaolo
"Andrew T. Kay" <lastredl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1153986175....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> david...@aol.com wrote:
> (1) Are there unwritten high notes in ATTILA that Met patrons who care
> about ATTILA are going to expect and miss? My question is sincere. The
> work was an obscurity until recent decades -- I am not aware that it
> has any established "Di quella pira high-C"-type performance tradition
> that will be at issue. Then again, I suppose it's possible to throw
> spurious high notes into any solo of any opera, if the conductor is
> submissive enough.
There's a beautiful high note at the end of the baritone's (Ezio's)
calabetta that follows his big aria (Dagli immortali vertici). Zancanaro
sings the most gorgeous rendition of the aria, but, alas, no high note.
Milnes & Cappuccilli hit a Bb, IIRC.
Yeah, I LOVE the interpolated high note, but when the aria is presented as
beautifully as Zancanaro did, it's a small sacrifice.
DonPaolo
donpaolo
brings to mind the rather obvious & simple idea that Alfredo Kraus so
eloquently put forth - don't perform the operas that cannot be cast
properly.
DonPaolo
<wkas...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1154005303.3...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
donpaolo
DonPaolo
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154002687.8...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Sergio da Silva
allow the high C. If a tenor can sing all the markings, the aria in key, the
"Madre infelice" part and still do a high C, he would allow it.
In the case of the last presentation with Licitra he was wise not allowing
it. To me Licitra's problem is high C and above, not that he can't do it but
it is just not comfortable for him.
Anyway a Manrico must do much more than just this aria, there are many who
sing an awful "Ah si ben mio" and then transpose "Di quella pira" and sing a
B (instead of a C) and the audience usually does not know or care and cheer
the lousy tenor :-)news:1154001484....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
performance...and a cherished one.
That Muti chooses to deny the audience something (a gift) for his own
reasons merely shows that he couldn't care less about what people think of
his performances...even to the point of cutting the legs off a few singers
here and there in order to show who's boss.
Still...his strength IS in balancing an orchestra to its' full power...and
dramatic impact. A case in point is his 'Aïda'.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:N7KdnSX5JtXBJFXZ...@rcn.net...
wkas...@comcast.net
Jon E. Szostak, Sr. wrote:
> That Muti chooses to deny the audience something (a gift) for his own
> reasons merely shows that he couldn't care less about what people think of
> his performances...
Or he's protecting them from anti-musical singers who emply high notes
badly and inappropriately.
Bill
The Handelmaniac
:
>>
> Or he's protecting them from anti-musical singers who emply high notes
> badly and inappropriately.
>
> Bill
NAME THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154001484....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<wkas...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1154007742.1...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Richard Loeb
I saw Muti very often in Philadelphia and he kindly opened all of his
rehearsals to me - I can tell you that he doesn't give a rat's ass what the
public thinks about his performances - why should he????? he has a vision
and follows it - the public can like it or not. I recall a rehearsal of
Scheherezade which was open to the public - he played the same phrase two
ways - first in a very Stokowski-like manner and the second without those
mannerisms - he asked the audience what they liked and they overwhelmingly
liked the first - he then smilingly said that he was going to conduct it the
second way!!!!
Richard
wkas...@comcast.net
Richard Loeb wrote:
> I recall a rehearsal of
> Scheherezade which was open to the public - he played the same phrase two
> ways - first in a very Stokowski-like manner and the second without those
> mannerisms - he asked the audience what they liked and they overwhelmingly
> liked the first - he then smilingly said that he was going to conduct it the
> second way!!!!
BRAVO MUTI!!!
Bill
Ken Meltzer
Richard Loeb wrote:
> I saw Muti very often in Philadelphia and he kindly opened all of his
> rehearsals to me - I can tell you that he doesn't give a rat's ass what the
> public thinks about his performances - why should he????? he has a vision
> and follows it - the public can like it or not.
And it's not as if what Muti does is an unknown commodity. You know
that if you go to a Muti-led performance, it's not going to include any
unwritten high notes. That won't be surprise, or at least, it
shouldn't be.
Best,
Ken
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<wkas...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1154009655.1...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
ljo
> reasons merely shows that he couldn't care less about what people think of
> his performances...even to the point of cutting the legs off a few singers
> here and there in order to show who's boss.
>
That statement could have used a little more thought - - actually, a lot
more. And by the way, when you're done with your crystal ball I'd like to
borrow it in order to advance my understanding of the Handelman brain and
those who revere him.
> Still...his strength IS in balancing an orchestra to its' full power...and
> dramatic impact. A case in point is his 'Aďda'.
donpaolo
Muti! Don't ask me to name 'em, Charlie (*_*)
DonPaolo
"The Handelmaniac" <vissida...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154007908.8...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
donpaolo
& is otherwise willing to generously share the high notes!
DonPaolo
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154010244.4...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
donpaolo
"Sergio da Silva" <dasi...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:yc3yg.24875
> the lousy tenor :-)
lousy tenors (and, give automatic standing ovations) no matter what!
DonPaolo
Ken Meltzer
donpaolo wrote:
> No surprise, yet sill, a disappointment - provided, of course the singer has
> & is otherwise willing to generously share the high notes!
>
> DonPaolo
I think you and I agree, Paul, both on Muti's strengths as a conductor,
and the wish that he would allow a little more leeway. But as we all
know, no one's perfect! (;-)
Best,
Ken
wkas...@comcast.net
ljo wrote:
> That statement could have used a little more thought - - actually, a lot
> more.
That's a lot to ask on RMO...
Bill
ljo
All of us?
ljo
wkas...@comcast.net
Donald Grove wrote:
> Even when a Manrico is
> downright awful, there are people who will judge him on whether he
> takes the C or not.
Well, I suppose that if a Manrico is going to be awful, then it's
better that he be awful with the C than without it. But I'd rather
hear a musical, well sung Manrico without the C than a musically
slovenly one that includes it.
Bill
The Handelmaniac
>THINK!!!!!!!
I have over 10,000 tapes.....RARELY does a singer miss an interpolated
high note..because on this level..they can do it....Thjey transpose
when they want...but mostly they MAKE IT>
Muti is a total BORE..Look at that "Come scritto" trovatore
Video...UGH>>>>>
Even VERDI allowed extra high notes..and we know the tradition..Muti is
all by his little egotistical self...and I cannot listen to his
recordings....CH
donpaolo
high notes"!
P.
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154015740.1...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
david...@aol.com
high notes into any solo of any opera, if the conductor is submissive
enough."
This presupposes the authority of the primo ottocento score over primo
ottocento performance practice.
"What's disgraceful about performing music as it was actually
published?"
This presupposes that the music "as it was actually published" is
definitive in every case, that the definitive is possible in every
case, and it doesn't and isn't.
Performance traditions and corresponding attitudes toward the score
have varied from period to period, culture to culture. The Renaissance
composer left it to the performers to add the accidentals (musica
ficta) necessary to avoid certain forbidden intervals: generally more
than one solution will work. (There are also no tempo, dynamic, or
phrasing markings in Renaissance music.) Many a composer of the 17th,
18th, and 19th centuries expected the singer to ornament, often
extensively, the bare bones that he wrote down on paper. In writing
out the ornamentation, Bach and, in some cases, Mozart were rare
exceptions. Handel was not. No composer before the late 19th century
ever exhibited Muti's extreme attitude toward the score. It is not
until the music of Mahler and Stravinsky that composers had to assert
an unprecedented control by means of the score because of the specific
nature of the subtle refinements in them. With Mahler and Stravinsky,
aspects of performance that would once have been entrusted to the
judgment of the performer within the context of a living performing
tradition could no longer be entrusted to him. Even so, much of the
control Mahler attempted to exert was exerted by means of an
unprecedentedly extensive use of verbal injunctions and an
unprecedentedly extensive use of finicky dynamic markings: gradually
get slightly louder here; speed up ever so slightly here. Obviously, a
range of realizations is possible under this regime. The
"mechanically geared" rhythmic shifts in a piece like Le sacre du
printemps, of course, could not be controlled by verbal indications
alone, and Stravinsky meticulously wrote out his changing meters.
If ever there was a culture in which the score was not definitive, it
was Italian culture in the first half of the 19th century. The musical
efficacy of interpolated high notes has to be judged on a case by case
basis. The fact is, interpolated high notes virtually never destroy
the underlying abstract musical structure: the notes interpolated
invariably belong to the underlying harmony. It is possible but not
inevitable that they will destroy the shape of a melody.
The composer of Falstaff was not the same man who wrote Attila or
Trovatore. Verdi's attitude toward Trovatore at the time of the
premiere is revealing. In preparing the tenor part for the premiere,
he writes out, not the high notes that he would ideally prefer to hear,
but notes he is certain the tenor can manage. When another tenor with
a ringing high C comes along and asks the maestro whether he should
insert the famous high C at the end of "Di quella pira," Verdi responds
in the affirmative: "Give the audience a gift." (It is very dubious
that the tenor would even have bothered to ask had Verdi not been
involved in the performance in question. What validates the high C,
Verdi's permission or its efficacy in the context of a rousing call
to arms sung before the tenor rushes off to save his mother from a
burning stake, a call to arms that brings down the curtain?)
(If you have a score of Trovatore, you can find many instances of
Verdi's accommodation of a tenor who can't manage a B flat. Look
at the first lines for Leonora and Manrico in "Di geloso amor
sprezzato" at the end of the first act. They sing in octaves all the
way down to Leonora's high B flat on the syllable "tro-": "son
pur TRO-op-po [son pur troppo]." In the same spot, Manrico sings the
syllables "dal-la-MO-o-or [dall'amor]," the arrival of "MO-"
coinciding with Leonora's B flat on "TRO-". Rather than a B
flat, Verdi gives Manrico a G natural. The only time Manrico deviates
from the soprano is when she arrives at a high note he doesn't have.
The highest note in "Ah, si, ben mio" is an A flat.)
The published score of Trovatore does not enshrine the ideal: it
reflects the limitations of the tenor who sang the premiere. In
performing Trovatore today, should we be bound by the limitations of
one long dead singer? Should we grant the authority of primo ottocento
scores the same authority we grant the score of Le sacre du printemps?
Precisely what I hate about all too many performances of classical
music from the last quarter century (and, above all supposedly
"historically informed" performances) is that they do just that.
-david gable
Andrew T. Kay
> Verdi probably meant it ironically and it is the very reason Muti does not
> allow the high C. If a tenor can sing all the markings, the aria in key, the
> "Madre infelice" part and still do a high C, he would allow it.
> In the case of the last presentation with Licitra he was wise not allowing
> it. To me Licitra's problem is high C and above, not that he can't do it but
> it is just not comfortable for him.
Agree re: Licitra in that TROVATORE (on the evidence of the Sony
recording, I believe Muti got the best possible Manrico that we could
expect from him at that time); also agree with others who've astutely
pointed out the deplorable habit of bad tenors to ignore several bars
of music they're supposed to sing so they can "load up" for some
unwritten circus-act display. "Madre infelice" isn't the only case.
I've seen one such hack do this in person in Alfredo's cabaletta in
TRAVIATA, where there isn't even any choral racket to cover the gap. To
me, *that* is the disgrace. If that's a gift, I hope it comes with a
receipt.
While I'm cheerleading for the worthy Riccardo, I'll note that I
recently listened to several TROVATOREs, including his (it's never been
my favorite of the big Verdi operas, and I'd been away from it for a
while), and I continue to wonder at his reputation for "rigidity." Even
on a performance as recent as this one, when his detractors would have
you assuming rigor mortis had fully set in, there are parts that he
shapes with a wonderful elasticity (he's as free with his phrasing of
the very opening of the opera, the pre-Ferrando fanfares, as anyone on
record; and he and Frittoli pull "D'amor sull'alli rosee" around like
taffy -- hardly two consecutive phrases line up the same way).
Todd K
david...@aol.com
Sergio da Silva wrote:
> Verdi probably meant it ironically
You could not be more wrong.
-david gable
Mitchell Kaufman
> SADLY, Muti senza acuti comes to the Met for Attila in 2 yrs..That will
> be a bore.....no high notes...The man is a disgrace.CH
The Handelmaniac also wrote:
"I always say that I am not "qualified" to judge conducting from a
technical point of view."--11/29/03
"I never feel qualified to judge conducting"--5/5/98
"I rarely feel qualified to judge conducting"--4/10/02
"I never feel "qualified' to judge most conducting"--10/30/05
"I rarely review conducting, feeling I am not "qualified,"--11/1/03
"I never feel 'qualified' because I think I would need more
of a technical background to determine certain elements of their
conducting..pro and con"--10/10/04
MK
Donald Grove
sacrificing the high C.
Donald Grove
point ambiguous. It was very indulgent of Verdi to call the tenor's C
a gift, if he was not being ironic. Either way, the tenor would
probably have been flattered. What is the context that clears up the
irony question?
Also, by the time of Trovatore, was C "en poitrine" a given? Or is it
possible that a tenor could have opted to sing it without chest?
On 27 Jul 2006 11:29:38 -0700, "david...@aol.com"
david...@aol.com
wkas...@comcast.net wrote:
> Well, I suppose that if a Manrico is going to be awful, then it's
> better that he be awful with the C than without it. But I'd rather
> hear a musical, well sung Manrico without the C than a musically
> slovenly one that includes it.
In short, you are not discussing the ideal, you are choosing the lesser
of two evils within the context of two conceivable "real world"
situations.
-david gable
Ken Meltzer
In this discussion, everyone keeps referring to the "C" as if that's a
given. In my experience, most tenors transpose the cabaletta down and
interpolate a high B or even a B-flat.
My preference would be to have "Di quella pira" sung in key, and with
both verses, with C's interpolated in the second.
But let's assume the tenor doesn't have a reliable "C" to sing on
stage. What would be everyone's preference here for a live performance
of "Di quella pira"?
Best,
Ken
Donald Grove
remark before I read your other, longer post.
I just looked over the notes in Ah Si Ben Mio. I made the mistake of
looking at the Adler Tenor Anthology first. It's down a half step! It
makes the top written notes all G. It seems to me a tenor who can't
handle the A flats as written probably will not fare better with the
Gs. Hmm. And they don't include Di Quella Pira, just Ah Si Ben Mio.
I checked it in my full score, and it's in D flat, like it should be!
On 27 Jul 2006 11:29:38 -0700, "david...@aol.com"
<david...@aol.com> wrote:
Andrew T. Kay
With good cause -- the real world is where he is most likely to attend
a performance of TROVATORE.
Todd K
wkas...@comcast.net
david...@aol.com wrote:
Of course. I'd rather have a musical Manrico with a brilliant
interpolated C.
Bill
david...@aol.com
Bill Kasimer writes:
> BRAVO MUTI!!!
You're awfully quick to side with Muti. I wouldn't side with Muti
until I had heard the two options, and Richard Loeb has loaded the dice
in favor of one of the options. Richard describes the first option as
a performance "in a Stokowski-like manner" but he doesn't characterized
the other performance at all.
How things have changed! Luckily for us, we live in an enlightened
period, the period of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, the
period when audiences and performers FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME IN HISTORY
have come to understand music, have come to exhibit the proper respect
for, not the music, but the score. There was a time before our period
of unprecedented enlightenment when the invocation of Stokowski's name
would not have been a pejorative. Today it is, and Richard Loeb uses
it as such, loading the dice against the performance he describes as
Stokowski-like and in favor or the performance the character of which
he doesn't even bother to describe. Under those conditions, I'd choose
Stokowski-like.
-david gable
Ken Meltzer
The Handelmaniac wrote:
(snip)
> Muti is a total BORE..Look at that "Come scritto" trovatore
> Video...UGH>>>>>
Charlie-
Do you think that all of Muti's conducting is a total bore, or just
those sections where he doesn't allow interpolated high notes?
In the times I've heard Muti, I've always been impressed by the beauty
of the sound, the precision, and wonderful balances he draws from the
musicians, both instrumental and vocal. And I think in early Verdi,
Muti's energetic approach really captures the revolutionary nature of
these scores.
Best,
Ken
wkas...@comcast.net
Ken Meltzer wrote:
> My preference would be to have "Di quella pira" sung in key, and with
> both verses, with C's interpolated in the second.
'Zackly.
> But let's assume the tenor doesn't have a reliable "C" to sing on
> stage. What would be everyone's preference here for a live performance
> of "Di quella pira"?
If he's got a secure B or Bb, transpose down and sing 'em, since the
transposition can be accomplished pretty well without calling attention
to itself. After all, it's opera, not a Home Run Derby.
Bill
Richard Loeb
"Di quella Pira" is diluted if sung twice and also the lines for Leonora in
the middle of the two verses are frankly awful.
As for the high C, I suppose a nicely nailed high C can make up for a great
deal of bawling the rest of the role, but I would rather have it the other
way round, beautifully sung and either no high c or a transposition down. I
really don't care all that much Richard
david...@aol.com
Ken Meltzer wrote:
> In this discussion, everyone keeps referring to the "C" as if that's a
> given. In my experience, most tenors transpose the cabaletta down and
> interpolate a high B or even a B-flat.
> My preference would be to have "Di quella pira" sung in key, and with
> both verses, with C's interpolated in the second.
> But let's assume the tenor doesn't have a reliable "C" to sing on
> stage. What would be everyone's preference here for a live performance
> of "Di quella pira"
I agree with your ultimate preference for the ideal, although I
actually question the efficacy of inclusion of the second verse, and I
couldn't care less when it's cut. The second verse is the result, not
of the increasingly naturalistic direction Verdi was taking, but of an
ancient convention. (I prefer for the second verse of "Addio del
passato" not to be cut: these decisions should be made on a case by
case basis.)
As for the real world in which not every tenor has a ringing high C, I
don't mind transposition at all. In any case, Verdi sanctioned such
transpositions as late as Otello, and the quartet in the second act of
Otello, originally composed in B major, was transposed down to B flat
to accomodate I can't remember which of his principals. That
transposition down DOES bother me, because it occurs within the very
tight continuous weave of the second act, yet I can't avoid it, because
it's enshrined in the score. The transposition of "Di quella pira"
doesn't bother me at all.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
A number of the Puritans in this thread are perfectly happy with
Rimsky's thorough bowdlerization of Mussorgksy's Boris but squawk over
the interpolation of single high notes in Italian opera. I'm
particularly amazed to see Richard Loeb siding with Muti, whose
contempt for the Rimsky would no doubt be withering.
-david gable
Ken Meltzer
david...@aol.com wrote:
> Bill Kasimer writes:
>
> > BRAVO MUTI!!!
>
> You're awfully quick to side with Muti. I wouldn't side with Muti
> until I had heard the two options, and Richard Loeb has loaded the dice
> in favor of one of the options. Richard describes the first option as
> a performance "in a Stokowski-like manner" but he doesn't characterized
> the other performance at all.
I'm a huge Stokowski fan. He is one of my handful of favorite
conductors of all time. If he came back tomorrow, I'd sell the house
in order to buy tickets to his concerts.
But my reaction to Richard's story was the same as Bill's-"Bravo Muti!"
Not because Stokowski's approach to Scheherazade was bad (it was
magnificent, IMO) and that Muti's is great (I've never heard it). I
would say "Bravo Muti!" because he was telling the audience that "while
you may prefer a certain interpretive approach, I'm going to share a
different one with you." I think that is the job of a conductor-to
interpret according to his experience, his reading of the score and his
personality.
After the performance, the audience may still have preferred a
Stokowski-like approach to
Muti's. Great! Hearing Muti's interpretation gave them a basis for
comparison and reinforced their beliefs. What a wonderful opportunity
for an audience. Likewise, some may have preferred Muti's. They too
gained from the experience.
One of the great things about great works of art is that they are
subject to many different interpretations. Each tells us something
about the score and maybe even about ourselves.
Thank goodness we live in an age of recordings that allows us to
compare and contrast the work of artists like Stokowski and Muti.
And while I'm at it, I'd like to put in a good word for Rimsky-Korsakov
and of course for the orchestras who make conductors sound good!
Best,
Ken
david...@aol.com
Andrew T. Kay wrote:
> > In short, you are not discussing the ideal, you are choosing the lesser
> > of two evils within the context of two conceivable "real world"
> > situations.
>
> With good cause -- the real world is where he is most likely to attend
> a performance of TROVATORE.
In short, you're coming around to the early 19th century Italian
attitude: what matters is not the abstract skeleton in the score but
what we can realize with this cast under these circumstances here
today.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
wkas...@comcast.net wrote:
> Of course. I'd rather have a musical Manrico with a brilliant
> interpolated C.
So would I.
-david gable
Andrew T. Kay
> The published score of Trovatore does not enshrine the ideal: it
> reflects the limitations of the tenor who sang the premiere.
If Verdi felt strongly about these high notes, might he not have
authorized a revision to the score at some later point in his long
life, once he'd heard the part sung by tenors not as "limited" as the
first Manrico? You know the composer's biography as well or better than
I do, and so you know that if there were two things he was not averse
to, they were (1) writing detailed letters to Ricordi and (2) revising
scores when he had second, third, or fourth thoughts about an opera.
But for some reason, he never got around to it. I'm sure you're going
to say something along the lines of, "He knew there was no need,
because he knew that every singer who performed the opera would be well
schooled in an idiomatic performance tradition that includes
interpolated high notes. The come scritto aesthetic of Muti is a
late-20th-century phenomenon that would be anathema to him"; but I do
not believe I can be persuaded that those traditional interpolations
are *necessary* ("desirable" at least would be open for debate), and
that a performance lacking them has a strike against it.
Todd K
Damian R
"Andrew T. Kay" <lastredl...@aol.com> wrote in message
> also agree with others who've astutely
> pointed out the deplorable habit of bad tenors to ignore several bars
> of music they're supposed to sing so they can "load up" for some
> unwritten circus-act display. "Madre infelice" isn't the only case.
> I've seen one such hack do this in person in Alfredo's cabaletta in
> TRAVIATA, where there isn't even any choral racket to cover the gap. To
> me, *that* is the disgrace. If that's a gift, I hope it comes with a
> receipt.
It's not just tenors of course - all those opera recordings where the
sopranos miss out a few bars ready for the interpolated high notes and
cadenzas - Traviata and Barbiere particularly spring to mind.
Ken Meltzer
The Handelmaniac wrote:
> Even VERDI allowed extra high notes..and we know the tradition..Muti is
> all by his little egotistical self...
Not totally alone. Arturo Toscanini often took a similar approach. A
good portion of his life intersected Verdi's and he actually had the
opportunity to meet with the composer.
And before anyone gets too excited, I'm not suggesting by the above
that Toscanini's approach was the correct way to interpret Verdi, or
even a way approved by the composer. Only that there is some
historical precedent for what Muti does.
Best,
Ken
David Melnick
I've heard many a fine B. Doesn't B-flat begin to sound a
little un-Manricolike?
Sincerely,
Cantaloupe Eyes
Donald Grove
celebrate Rockland County Opera production) and the Almaviva asked me
to cover for him on several measures of his line in the first act
finale, so that he could relax for a breath before he went up to his
C.
It was fine with me. He had a C, and the tessitura of the Act I
finale is brutal for Almaviva. I don't think that it's bad practice
to do what you need to get the top notes out, in an ensemble where
another singer can cover the part while you rest.
(As far as my voice is concerned, the tessitura of the entire part is
outrageous, but other tenors handle it quite well.)
On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:19:44 +0100, "Damian R" <thes...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
wkas...@comcast.net
david...@aol.com wrote:
> Bill Kasimer writes:
>
> > BRAVO MUTI!!!
>
> You're awfully quick to side with Muti.
Because I want the guy with the stick to conduct a work as HE hears it,
and thinks that it should be played - not the way that someone else did
it, or even worse, the way an audience "consensus" desires. He's
supposed to be a musician, an interpreter, not a grubby American
politician.
Bill
Richard Loeb
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154027625....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Yes, exactly right. Muti used the opportunity to conduct a phrase of the
music in two different ways. When he announced that he would conduct it
without the Stokowski exaggerations, the audience and orchestra burst out
laughing. It was a demonstration to the audience that music can be conducted
in different ways and also that Muti would do it his way. No loaded dice, no
hidden agenda, just an account of how Muti conducts and his relationship
with the audience.
Richard
alanwa...@aol.com
A very good post and absolutely spot on in my opinion. It is a muse
that has to be recreated all over again every night. Different
interpretations are surely the fascination of all music?
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Ken Meltzer
Donald Grove wrote:
> I just sang tenor in the chorus of Barbiere (the internationally
> celebrate Rockland County Opera production) and the Almaviva asked me
> to cover for him on several measures of his line in the first act
> finale, so that he could relax for a breath before he went up to his
> C.
>
> It was fine with me. He had a C, and the tessitura of the Act I
> finale is brutal for Almaviva. I don't think that it's bad practice
> to do what you need to get the top notes out, in an ensemble where
> another singer can cover the part while you rest.
I understand that. But I do have a problem with a singer leaving out
music the composer did write in order to save the energy to sing
something that he didn't!
Best,
Ken
ljo
>..Muti is
> all by his little egotistical self...and I cannot listen to his
> recordings....CH >
And I have been informed that he does not listen to *your* recordings. Of
course, Maestro Muti is actually able to tell whether a piece is performed
as written, whereas the Opera Clown replies upon Cosmic vibrations . .
Richard Loeb
news:1154028389....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
sometimes don't, but I must have seen him conduct and rehearse over a
hundred times and he does not swerve from the way he thinks this music
should be conducted. As a side note, he had very little use for the social
aspects of the role (buttering up the money people) - he really couldn;t
stand that and I saw him once stare down a grande dame making her way down
the aisle late to the performance - I will never forget the sight of him
standing on the podium, arms crossed, and tapping his foot. The audience
burst out in applause. Richard
alanwa...@aol.com
> And it's not as if what Muti does is an unknown commodity. You know
> that if you go to a Muti-led performance, it's not going to include any
> unwritten high notes. That won't be surprise, or at least, it
> shouldn't be.
> Best,
> Ken
And singers know that as well and if they do not wish to be bound by
his reluctance to accept interpolated notes they should not accept the
engagement.
My bet is, however, that many singers would probably be quite happy to
be engaged to sing with Mr Muti conducting, interpolated notes or not.
Andrew T. Kay
> I don't want two verses since, as I have said before, I think the impact of
> "Di quella Pira" is diluted if sung twice and also the lines for Leonora in
> the middle of the two verses are frankly awful.
Oh, I want two verses. I've read that about Leonora's lines from others
too, and I don't agree; I love to hear them. Do you mean they're awful
as poetry or awful as music? They're not impressive as melody, but I
don't think they're really supposed to be -- their function is strongly
rhythmic (very like the bandits' interjections between verses in
Ernani's Act I aria, but more concise), and they do exactly what
they're supposed to do: keep the temperature high (no pun intended)
while the tenor collects himself.
Todd K
The Handelmaniac
Note how we will NEVER have peace as long as this thing exists..Do not
blame me.I wrote about opera..This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that
destorys us.....
SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Donald Grove
mot!
On 27 Jul 2006 12:37:05 -0700, "Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com>
wrote:
ljo
"Mitchell Kaufman" <forg...@iaint.disclosinit> wrote in message
news:1hj510i.1472fueyc6hqN%forg...@iaint.disclosinit...
> The Handelmaniac <vissida...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> SADLY, Muti senza acuti comes to the Met for Attila in 2 yrs..That will
>> be a bore.....no high notes...The man is a disgrace.CH
>
> The Handelmaniac also wrote:
>
> "I always say that I am not "qualified" to judge conducting from a
> technical point of view."--11/29/03
>
> "I never feel qualified to judge conducting"--5/5/98
>
> "I rarely feel qualified to judge conducting"--4/10/02
>
> "I never feel "qualified' to judge most conducting"--10/30/05
>
> "I rarely review conducting, feeling I am not "qualified,"--11/1/03
>
> "I never feel 'qualified' because I think I would need more
> of a technical background to determine certain elements of their
> conducting..pro and con"--10/10/04
>
> MK>
Dang! I was just popping my knuckles . . gettin' ready to go look for that
stuff. Thanks.
ljo
Richard Loeb
"Andrew T. Kay" <lastredl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154029239....@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Yes but (Lord withhold thy Lightning!!!!) every note Verdi wrote was not a
masterpiece and I find that Leonoras lines between the two verses are awful
as music and prose - just how they hit me. Richard
david...@aol.com
Andrew T. Kay wrote:
> If Verdi felt strongly about these high notes, might he not have
> authorized a revision to the score at some later point in his long
> life, once he'd heard the part sung by tenors not as "limited" as the
> first Manrico?
He could have, if he had ever prepared an edition for publication. To
quote from the critical edition: "During the first thirty-five years
of its existence, the orchestral score of Il Trovatore circulated only
in manuscript copies. Possibly as early as 1888, Ricordi engraved a
full score of the opera 'in luogo di manoscritto.' [. . .] A second
edition appeared about 1895, also without plate numbers. Both scores
were available for rental only, and there is no evidence that Verdi had
a hand in their publication. Neither is a significant source for this
edition, nor are the three editions published after Verdi's death."
The first published score based directly on the bound autograph in
Verdi's hand housed in the archives of the Casa Ricordi in Milan was
published in 1992.
> You know the composer's biography as well or better than
> I do, and so you know that if there were two things he was not averse
> to, they were (1) writing detailed letters to Ricordi and (2) revising
> scores when he had second, third, or fourth thoughts about an opera.
Verdi grew up in one world and lived to see a very different one, in
the creation of which he played an important part. Furthermore, you're
talking about revisions of a very different and more significant kind.
The revisions of, say, Don Carlos weren't made merely to accomodate the
strengths or ranges of individual singers, although some of them were
made for practical reasons. The revisions were made (a) to insure,
alas, a score that Verdi didn't feel was intolerably long, and (b) for
aesthetic reasons. He cared very deeply about this opera, the longest
and one of the two or three most ambitious he ever wrote, and he wanted
it to be as strong musically as possible. Turning back to Trovatore
merely in order to produce a score that would accomodate the range of
some ideal tenor would have been a very different proposition.
> The come scritto aesthetic of Muti is a
> late-20th-century phenomenon that would be anathema to him"; but I do
> not believe I can be persuaded that those traditional interpolations
> are *necessary* ("desirable" at least would be open for debate), and
> that a performance lacking them has a strike against it.
All I can say is that you grant the score a greater authority than
Verdi did. Verdi took for granted a way of doing things that you and
Muti don't acknowledge, especially in the period all the way down to
Sicilian Vespers.
-david gable
Ken Meltzer
Richard Loeb wrote:
> Yes but (Lord withhold thy Lightning!!!!) every note Verdi wrote was not a
> masterpiece and I find that Leonoras lines between the two verses are awful
> as music and prose - just how they hit me. Richard
It could be worse, Richard. Some composers wrote entire operas that
sound like those few lines!
Best,
Ken
david...@aol.com
David Melnick wrote:
> I've heard many a fine B. Doesn't B-flat begin to sound a
> little un-Manricolike?
The first Manrico didn't even have a B flat.
-david gable
Richard Loeb
LOL - yes thats true!!!! Richard
ljo
"The Handelmaniac" <vissida...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154029284....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
O come now, Opera Clown! It is unreasonable to describe the quoted material
as 'writing about opera'. It is more in the nature of writing about
Handelman.
ljo, smiling widely at the thought of ch referring to anybody, let alone
Muti, as "his little egotistical self".
David Melnick
Yes. I enjoyed your account of the whole affair.
V. should have found himself a real tenor. :-)
Cant. Eyes
alanwa...@aol.com
Mitchell Kaufman wrote:
> The Handelmaniac <vissida...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > SADLY, Muti senza acuti comes to the Met for Attila in 2 yrs..That will
> > be a bore.....no high notes...The man is a disgrace.CH
>
> The Handelmaniac also wrote:
>
> "I always say that I am not "qualified" to judge conducting from a
> technical point of view."--11/29/03
>
> "I never feel qualified to judge conducting"--5/5/98
>
> "I rarely feel qualified to judge conducting"--4/10/02
>
> "I never feel "qualified' to judge most conducting"--10/30/05
>
> "I rarely review conducting, feeling I am not "qualified,"--11/1/03
>
> "I never feel 'qualified' because I think I would need more
> of a technical background to determine certain elements of their
> conducting..pro and con"--10/10/04
>
> MK
Perhaps it is one of those rare occasions?
david...@aol.com
Ken Meltzer wrote:
> But I do have a problem with a singer leaving out
> music the composer did write in order to save the energy to sing
> something that he didn't!
Again, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, and in the case of
precisely the kinds of examples being discussed in this thread, I think
it makes sense for the singer to omit what the composer wrote in order
to prepare for climactic passages including high notes, interpolated or
otherwise. In the final stretta from "Di quella pira" it doesn't make
the slightest bit of difference whether the Manrico sings the notes
doubled by the tenors singing forte in the chorus. Once again, the
question is what is most effective. I'd opt for having all of the
notes well represented even though the Manrico doesn't double them
(which he would do virtually inaudibly in any case) and a Manrico with
the energy to pull off the high C. Or B. Or B flat.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
I'm not actually arguing for a cavalier attitude toward the music.
I'm simply insisting that the printed score, although a very good
roadmap, does not necessarily supply the best let alone the definitive
solution in every case. I'm also pointing out that Muti's attitude
is thoroughly unhistorical. If you want to guarantee a performance of
an Italian opera the like of which Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, and
Verdi never intended, all you have to do is strictly and faithfully
realize the printed score.
As for Toscanini, a reformer set on radically overturning the way
things had always been done, Toscanini did NOT know the man who wrote
Attila and Il Trovatore and, unlike Verdi, he did NOT grow up inside
the performance traditions of the primo ottocento. Toscanini knew the
composer of Otello, Falstaff, and the Quattro pezzi sacri. And we all
know the famous story about the first performance of the Te Deum, which
Toscanini conducted. Going over the Te Deum with Verdi before its
first performance, Toscanini introduced a ritardando with some
trepidation because it hadn't been marked in the score. "Bravo!"
said Verdi, "just what I wanted." "But Maestro, you didn't write that
in your score." "If I had," replied the composer, "every conductor in
Italy would exaggerate it." In short, the score does NOT literally
transcribe "the composer's intentions." A strict realization of
the score is not what Verdi wanted or expected, even from Toscanini.
The score was destined for musicians living within a particular
performance tradition who, rather than mechanically realizing the
score, would respond to the musical shapes and shape them in bringing
them to life.
-david gable
Ken Meltzer
Ken Meltzer
david...@aol.com wrote:
> Again, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, and in the case of
> precisely the kinds of examples being discussed in this thread, I think
> it makes sense for the singer to omit what the composer wrote in order
> to prepare for climactic passages including high notes, interpolated or
> otherwise. In the final stretta from "Di quella pira" it doesn't make
> the slightest bit of difference whether the Manrico sings the notes
> doubled by the tenors singing forte in the chorus.
I have to disagree, David. First of all, Verdi took the trouble to
write out Manrico's part, which must count for something. Second, not
all the notes Manrico sings in the concerted passage are identical to
what the chorus tenors are singing. And third, even where his notes
are the same, the text is different, and pertinent to the drama. So,
if the tenor sings what's written, and the conductor does a good job of
balancing everyone, Manrico's part can be heard. I think that does
make a difference.
If the tenor has to omit what Verdi wrote in order to get out the
interpolated note, so be it. But that practice strikes me as no more
proper than throwing all performance tradition to the winds by omitting
interpolated high notes.
Best,
Ken
Andrew T. Kay
> Ken Meltzer wrote:
>
> > But I do have a problem with a singer leaving out
> > music the composer did write in order to save the energy to sing
> > something that he didn't!
>
> Again, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, and in the case of
> precisely the kinds of examples being discussed in this thread, I think
> it makes sense for the singer to omit what the composer wrote in order
> to prepare for climactic passages including high notes, interpolated or
> otherwise.
I'm surprised, David -- I'm not joking when I say I had to look at the
header again and make sure I had the author correct. I thought you'd
hate that sort of thing even more than I do. I've seen you compare
singers to barnyard animals for incorrectly counting rests; I never
anticipated you could be unperturbed about their leaving out whole
measures of *notes* the composer thought were important enough to
include. (Much else of what I had to say, about Manrico's notes in one
of the passages at issue not all being duplicated by the tenors in the
chorus, et cetera, has been said well by another respondent.)
Todd K
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
But this really does open a huge can of worms...doesn't it? That's really a
most intriguing question Ken.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154026489.1...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> But let's assume the tenor doesn't have a reliable "C" to sing on
> stage. What would be everyone's preference here for a live performance
> of "Di quella pira"?
> Best,
> Ken
Ken Meltzer
Jon E. Szostak, Sr. wrote:
> If the tenor in fact had no 'C'...then he shouldn't be singing the role.
That may be, Jon. But he would be in pretty august company-at least in
the company of tenors who were not willing to sing a high C on stage in
a performance of Trovatore.
Best,
Ken
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
available. If 'B' not available...then I hold by my original thought...the
tenor shouldn't be singing the role...nor should he be hired for the part.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:CY6dnWrStvRfhVTZ...@comcast.com...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154033661.3...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Donald Grove
Maschera, Verdi used another preventive measure: add an extra measure
of music where you want a fermata, and mark that the tempo should not
change in that passage.
On 27 Jul 2006 13:28:54 -0700, "david...@aol.com"
Ken Meltzer
Jon E. Szostak, Sr. wrote:
> You've got me there Ken. You'll get no argument about this.
>
> Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
In any event, Jon, it's nice to see such an excellent and spirited
discussion about opera here, isn't it?
Best,
Ken
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
problem...why can't we have both then? It's the bull-headed refusal on the
part of Muti to allow the 'C' by such a tenor that get's my goat. If the
tenor has no 'C'...then Muti shouldn't have hired him to begin with.
Bit of a Catch-22...what?
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154027768.3...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> wkas...@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
>> Of course. I'd rather have a musical Manrico with a brilliant
>> interpolated C.
>
> So would I.
>
> -david gable
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
obstreperous.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154034050....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
alanwa...@aol.com
Not strictly relevant to the vocal art or not necessarily but if you
take part in the first rehearsal of a contemporary work also be
prepared to spend six hours or more going over 9 minutes of music while
the composer adjusts his score having heard it realised for the first
time by the forces he wrote for......
Ken Meltzer
Jon E. Szostak, Sr. wrote:
> problem...why can't we have both then? It's the bull-headed refusal on the
> part of Muti to allow the 'C' by such a tenor that get's my goat. If the
> tenor has no 'C'...then Muti shouldn't have hired him to begin with.
Jon-
On another one of my opera groups (I think Parlour), one of the members
posted a transcription of a talk Muti gave before the La Scala
Trovatores. As I recall, he made a point about how taking the high C
out of play removed a burden from tenors who usually spend the first
part of the opera worrying about how they are going to get it out.
According to Muti, this frees up the tenor to concentrate on doing
justice to all the rest of the music.
Whether this is a rationalization or not, I'll leave for others to
judge.
Best,
Ken
alanwa...@aol.com
If it helps, at the time of Mr Verdi some members of the orchestra left
out whole parts as well:):)
Richard Loeb
smidgeon of truth there Richard
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154034673.3...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Richard Loeb
news:sY-dnfd6q6lbtFTZ...@comcast.com...
silvery tone (and a ringing '"Di Quella Pira") Richard