What King did Mozart say this to?
WalkerDlwalke
an awful lot of notes in his composition? - it was something like "Only as many
as are neccesary", right?
What I really want to know is what composition were they talking about and with
whom was he speaking. It was a king wasn't it?
Thanks,
Dave
REG
hearing the Abduction, something like "Very good, but too many notes,
Mozart". (The comment has always seemed a little suspicious to me because I
don't think anyone much talked back to a Hapsburg with that court etiquette,
and it seems a little too much like "Scribble, scribble, scribble, eh Mr.
Gibbon?".
In any case, if the interchange is correct, the Emperor was accurate and
Mozart was falsifying, since, in fact, there is a letter from Mozart to his
father in which he complains of the changes that he has been forced to put
into Marten Alle Arten in order to accomodate the "flexible throat of Mme.
Calalieri" (a singer, not his administrative intern).
"WalkerDlwalke" <walker...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020226214928...@mb-ml.aol.com...
Grant Menzies
>It is said to have been Mozart's response to the Emperor who commented, on
>hearing the Abduction, something like "Very good, but too many notes,
>Mozart".
<snip>
The monarch in question was the Habsburg Emperor Josef II, brother of
Marie Antoinette of France and son of Empress Maria Theresa.
Grant
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Grant Menzies
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Mark D Lew
walker...@aol.com (WalkerDlwalke) wrote:
The line you quote was spoken by Tom Hulce to Jeffrey Jones in the movie
Amadeus. They were portraying the characters of Mozart and the Emperor
Joseph II. You can find the entire exchange quoted at
<http://www.toomanynotes.com/Amadeus.htm>.
I don't remember the movie well enough to say which piece they were
referring to, but REG's suggestion of Entführung certainly makes sense in
terms of the story, since that was Mozart's first operatic success in
Vienna.
If there is any evidence that Mozart actually said this, I shall be very
surprised. If anyone can cite a reference to the "too many notes" line
prior to 1984, I shall be moderately surprised. I always assumed that
Peter Shaffer invented the conversation for "Amadeus".
I don't like to correct typos, but in case anyone is trying to look her up,
the agile-throated Constanze is actually Caterina Cavalieri (not
Calalieri).
mdl
dtritter
dft
David Melnick
Shaffer may have been stealing a line from
Louis Zukofsky's "Bottom: On Shakespeare" (1964),
which contains the judgment (from a Poundian
perspective) that Shakespeare used "too many
words".
David
dtritter
lot of invented dialogue, written in the early '30's [so much for
shaffer theory] ... i've seen it elsewhere too, and so i suspect it came
down over the decades from perhaps an authentic source. difficulty with
the court censor was a commonplace. actually joseph II was thought in
his short reign to be a liberal, not in the tradition of his mama, you
may want to look into some of h.c. robbins landon's investigations of
the vienna of the era.
dft
David Melnick
So that may be where Zukofsky got his line
about Shax! Zuke was nothing if not eclectic.
Thanks,
Dav
Mark D Lew
> i first read the anecdote in marcia davenport's "mozart," which has a
> lot of invented dialogue, written in the early '30's [so much for
> shaffer theory] ... i've seen it elsewhere too, and so i suspect it came
> down over the decades from perhaps an authentic source.
Aha, excellent! If anyone can follow this trail even further back, I shall
be delighted.
> difficulty with
> the court censor was a commonplace. actually joseph II was thought in
> his short reign to be a liberal, not in the tradition of his mama, you
> may want to look into some of h.c. robbins landon's investigations of
> the vienna of the era.
Joseph's reign wasn't THAT short. He reigned as sole emperor for ten years,
not counting the 15 as "co-emperor" with his mother. He died at age 48. Not
exactly old, true, but not really young for the era either. (Older than
Mozart was when he died....)
I would say that the contrast between Joseph and Maria Theresa was
primarily personal. Politically, both were modernizing reformers
interested in social welfare, and Joseph followed through with his mother's
programs. Notwithstanding a personality which was conservative to the point
of bigotry, Maria Theresa was the one who pushed through the difficult but
overdue political and economic changes that allowed Austria-Hungary to
become a modern state. Without her work -- not least of which was the
system of public education that nurtured the young men who became her
political opposition -- Joseph's own liberal initiatives would not have
been possible at all. This applies both to the continuing political reforms
which his mother would have pursued on her own (eg, abolition of serfdom)
and to the social reforms which she probably wouldn't have (eg, religious
freedom, promotion of the arts).
mdl
John Lynch
REG wrote:
> In any case, if the interchange is correct, the Emperor was accurate and
> Mozart was falsifying, since, in fact, there is a letter from Mozart to his
> father in which he complains of the changes that he has been forced to put
> into Marten Alle Arten in order to accomodate the "flexible throat of Mme.
> Calalieri" (a singer, not his administrative intern).
A few years ago, a colleague in the music library stood in my door, his face a
mask of grief, to announce that someone had just discovered 19 more measures to
"Martern aller Arten."
JRL
Alessandro il Grande
> It is said to have been Mozart's response to the Emperor who commented, on
Sb correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Jozef II's (the Emperor in question)
headstone read sth like (rough translation) "Here lies Jozef II, a man who
failed in all his undertakings"? Now there's a sense of humour!! I'd love to
meet the guy. I bet he led an interesting life, socializing with Mozart,
fighting against the prussians and ottomans etc.
> In any case, if the interchange is correct, the Emperor was accurate and
> Mozart was falsifying, since, in fact, there is a letter from Mozart to his
> father in which he complains of the changes that he has been forced to put
> into Marten Alle Arten in order to accomodate the "flexible throat of Mme.
> Calalieri" (a singer, not his administrative intern).
It's fascinating to think about all the little details that have affected
exactly how a certain piece of music finally ended up being in its final
form.....'Martern aller Arten' is one of my favourite moments in all opera.
Aleksi
•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•
1-0 to the Arsenal!!!!
Matthew B. Tepper
news:3C7D316F...@se.sei.interessato:
And it demonstrates just the right kind of defiance that we need now....
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Old Fart
<Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It is said to have been Mozart's response to the Emperor who commented, on
> hearing the Abduction, something like "Very good, but too many notes,
> Mozart". (The comment has always seemed a little suspicious to me because I
> don't think anyone much talked back to a Hapsburg with that court etiquette,
> and it seems a little too much like "Scribble, scribble, scribble, eh Mr.
> Gibbon?".
Somewhere, over 45 years ago, I read this same story with a footnote
that said the Emporer's remark was directed at the size of the
orchestra. "Too many notes" meant that the orchestration was heavy,
which Mozart's were for his time.
Britta
mark...@earthlink.net schrieb:
>If there is any evidence that Mozart actually said this, I shall be very
>surprised. If anyone can cite a reference to the "too many notes" line
>prior to 1984, I shall be moderately surprised. I always assumed that
>Peter Shaffer invented the conversation for "Amadeus".
I've certainly heard the line before then. It's an anecdote that I remember
hearing in my student days. (Yes, it was Kaiser Joseph II, yes, it was
"Entfuehrung.") Now I've just checked the books I have lying around here,
and I've found it in two of them. One is one of those gaudy sorts of
"Opernfuehrer" from 1980, one is a serious reference book that's gone
through all sorts of revisions and been around forever.
The lines are quoted identically in both of them:
KJ: Reche viele Noten, lieber Mozart!
WAM: Gerade so viel als noetig sind, Majestaet!
One book calls this an "anekdotisch ueberlieferter Wortwechsel," and the
other one says something like "the story is told that...." I suppose this
means that it's an old and famous story, but nobody can verify for sure what
was actually said. Normally something like this is referenced with
something like, "as XXX wrote in a letter to YYY" or something, so it may
be a case of "se non e' vero, e' ben trovato," but it's certainly an old and
well-known story.
Britta
Britta
>The lines are quoted identically in both of them:
>
>KJ: Reche viele Noten, lieber Mozart!
>WAM: Gerade so viel als noetig sind, Majestaet!
I really hate to answer my own posts. It makes me feel like Cherubino.
But that typo is so awful, I can't stand it. "RECHT viele Noten," obviously.
After sending the other post, another book occurred to me, and I've just
had a look. This is simply an amusing collection of anecdotes about
musicians. Nothing serious, but the stories are meant to be all true.
Here the conversation is quoted as:
KJ: Gewaltig viele Noten, lieber Mozart!
WAM: Majestaet, keine zuviel und keine zuwenig.
This is definitely an improved version, delivering the conversation in the
most amusing way possible.
Is this what you call an urban myth?
Britta
A Tsar Is Born
"Too beautiful for our ears, my dear Mozart, and a monstrous lot of
notes!"
It was the Roman Emperor Joseph II, who had commissioned the work as
part of his attempt to create a New German School of Opera (he had
already created German Theater, a triumph). The opera idea did not
work at all, and the work in question, Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail,
is the only survivor. Joseph found the vocal lines far too Italiante
and elaborate for the simpler Germanic style he hoped Mozart would
invent.
He was wrong -- the opera became, in the next ten years, a certified
hit throughout Germany, the most popular of Mozart's operas during his
own lifetime.
As for a National German Opera, Mozart got around to that, but only
after Joseph was dead and just before his own death, with Die
Zauberflote.
Hans Lick
atsar...@hotmail.com
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 02/27/2002 2:38 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <a5jg4...@enews3.newsguy.com>
>
>Alessandro il Grande <chi...@se.sei.interessato> wrote in
>news:3C7D316F...@se.sei.interessato:
>
>> the mystical "REG" wrote:
>>
>>> It is said to have been Mozart's response to the Emperor who
>>> commented, on
>>
>> Sb correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Jozef II's (the Emperor in
>> question) headstone read sth like (rough translation) "Here lies Jozef
>> II, a man who failed in all his undertakings"? Now there's a sense of
>> humour!! I'd love to meet the guy. I bet he led an interesting life,
>> socializing with Mozart, fighting against the prussians and ottomans
>> etc.
>>
>>> In any case, if the interchange is correct, the Emperor was accurate
>>> and Mozart was falsifying, since, in fact, there is a letter from
>>> Mozart to his father in which he complains of the changes that he has
>>> been forced to put into Marten Alle Arten in order to accomodate the
>>> "flexible throat of Mme. Calalieri" (a singer, not his administrative
>>> intern).
>>
>> It's fascinating to think about all the little details that have
>> affected exactly how a certain piece of music finally ended up being
>> in its final form.....'Martern aller Arten' is one of my favourite
>> moments in all opera.
>
>And it demonstrates just the right kind of defiance that we need now....
>
>--
>Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
The author of AMADEUS used the correct interchange but in the wrong context.
When LE NOZZE DI FIGARO was premiered in Vienna (in 1786) virtually every
number was encored.
The opera was already quite long without repetitions, so Josef II decreed that
there would be no encores thenceforward.
It was on this occasion that he praised Mozart while asserting there were too
many notes.
The charge was a subtle one, in that Josef II was objecting not simply to the
length of the opera but to its musical density.
Mozart, of course, defended the opera on all counts.
For all practical purposes, this is the oldest opera in the active repertory --
and yet it always seems like the youngest.
==G/P Dave
Britta
>The author of AMADEUS used the correct interchange but in the wrong context.
>
>When LE NOZZE DI FIGARO was premiered in Vienna (in 1786) virtually every
>number was encored.
>
>The opera was already quite long without repetitions, so Josef II decreed that
>there would be no encores thenceforward.
>
>It was on this occasion that he praised Mozart while asserting there were too
>many notes.
This starts to get interesting. It's certainly the first time that I've heard
this bit about "so many notes" applied to anything except the Entfuehrung.
As I understand the story about the Nozze, Kaiser Joseph II let it go for
three performances before cutting out any repeats, by the way.
I find the "so many notes" remark much more plausible for Entfuehrung. This
premiere was important to KJ, it was part of his big plan to establish a
"Deutsches National-Theater." It's natural that he would be more critical
about something that was so dear to his heart. He had been expecting
something a little more "deutsch," more like the simpler Singspiele that
were common at the time, so it's understandable that the complexity of the
Entfuehrung was a little schock to him.
But I'm certainly no Mozart expert. Do you have a good reference for this?
>The charge was a subtle one, in that Josef II was objecting not simply to the
>length of the opera but to its musical density.
>
>Mozart, of course, defended the opera on all counts.
Are you still talking about Nozze?
>For all practical purposes, this is the oldest opera in the active repertory --
>and yet it always seems like the youngest.
This seems an odd thing to say, since Entfuehrung is the older piece, so
maybe I'm just confused altogether. Or maybe Entfuehrung isn't the repertoire
piece in America that it is here?
Britta
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 02/27/2002 5:46 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <a5jr4...@drn.newsguy.com>
Britta,
As far as I can recall, the references to NOZZE DI FIGARO appear in Alfred
Einstein's biography of Mozart.
I will look it up and provide the exact citation.
ENTFUEHRUNG is really short opera. I remember being disturbed by Peter
Schaffer's attribution of Josef II's remarks to this singspiele rather than to
the much longer and musically rich FIGARO.
As far as this topic is concerned, I borrow a line from our most famous
Austrian movie star: "I'll be back."
==G/P Dave
Alessandro il Grande
> For all practical purposes, this is the oldest opera in the active repertory --
> and yet it always seems like the youngest.
What is active repertory? I would've thought some of Gluck's or Händel's works had
enjoyed fame&success from their premieres all the way to our day.....
just a thought!
A.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 02/27/2002 6:59 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C7D80FF...@se.sei.interessato>
A good thought.
There is, I think, a distinction between a repertory piece and one that is
revived from time to time.
So we have occasional revivals of operas by Monteverdi, Gluck, Pergolesi,
Handel, et al.
But FIGARO, I dare say, is heard somewhere in major opera houses throughout
Europe and the Americas.
And that has probably been the case every year since 1786.
==G/P Dave
Robert Gordon
> What is active repertory? I would've thought some of Gluck's or Händel's works had
> enjoyed fame&success from their premieres all the way to our day.....
My understanding is that Figaro is the first opera to be continuously performed from
the time it first appeared to the present. Earlier operas (Entführung, Idomeneo,
Gluck, Handel) disappeared for a while during the 19th century and had to be
rediscovered. In the case of Gluck and Handel the rediscovery is still in progress.
Figaro, Don Giovanni, and Zäuberflöte never had to be rediscovered.
BTW I don't think it's correct to use an umlaut with Handel's name. He anglicized his
name when he moved to England -- George Frederick Handel.
-- Rob Gordon
John Lynch
Alessandro il Grande wrote:
> Sb correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Jozef II's (the Emperor in question)
> headstone read sth like (rough translation) "Here lies Jozef II, a man who
> failed in all his undertakings"? Now there's a sense of humour!! I'd love to
> meet the guy. I bet he led an interesting life, socializing with Mozart,
> fighting against the prussians and ottomans etc.
Most of the Habsburgs are entombed in two churches in Vienna. Their hearts are
preserved in urns in an Augustinian church, and the rest of their bodies in the
Kaisergruft, a large vault in a Franciscan church. The earliest Habsburgs, named
Wolf, I seem to recall, were placed in simple wooden coffins in a corner of the
room. Succeeding generations were placed side by side in ever more elaborate
containers, culminating in a huge sarcophagus on which effigies of Maria
Theresia and Josef are depicted as waking up in bed "on that bright and
cloudless morn" as though they had just heard Gabriel's horn. Josef II decided
that such display was ridiculous--besides, they were running out of space--and
decreed that the rest of them would be put into plain copper caskets. Franz
Josef and Elisabeth and their son Rudolf are in an adjoining room which also
contains a bust of Carl, who is buried elsewhere. In the larger vault, when I
saw it in 1955, was a placard indicating a space reserved for the Herzog von
Reichstadt, known in France as l'Aiglon, the son of Napoleon and his Austrian
wife, who was then buried in the Invalides in Paris with his father.
In short, Josef II does not have a headstone.
JRL
David Melnick
> My understanding is that Figaro is the first opera to be continuously performed from
> the time it first appeared to the present. Earlier operas (Entführung, Idomeneo,
> Gluck, Handel) disappeared for a while during the 19th century and had to be
> rediscovered.
> Figaro, Don Giovanni, and Zäuberflöte never had to be rediscovered.
>
My impression was that there had to be a Mozart
revival, too, which regained a place in the standard
repertory for D.G., Zauberflote and Nozze only
in the 20th century after a considerable period
of neglect. Ditto for much of his instrumental
music (I think the D minor concerto was the only
piano concerto in the standard rep for a long time).
David
John Lynch
Robert Gordon wrote:
> BTW I don't think it's correct to use an umlaut with Handel's name. He anglicized his
> name when he moved to England -- George Frederick Handel.
>
Actually, he called himself George Frideric Handel.
JRL
REG
extensive version of Blondchen's Durch aria. I frankly don't think that in
either case the additions do much.
"John Lynch" <ano...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3C7CE18F...@worldnet.att.net...
thierry morice
> Succeeding generations were placed side by side in ever more elaborate
> containers, culminating in a huge sarcophagus on which effigies of Maria
> Theresia and Josef are depicted as waking up in bed "on that bright and
> cloudless morn" as though they had just heard Gabriel's horn.
Actually it's Maria Theresia with her husband Franz I
> Josef II decided
> that such display was ridiculous--besides, they were running out of space--and
> decreed that the rest of them would be put into plain copper caskets. Franz
> Josef and Elisabeth and their son Rudolf are in an adjoining room which also
> contains a bust of Carl, who is buried elsewhere.
in Madeira.
>In the larger vault, when I
> saw it in 1955, was a placard indicating a space reserved for the Herzog von
> Reichstadt, known in France as l'Aiglon, the son of Napoleon and his Austrian
> wife, who was then buried in the Invalides in Paris with his father.
The Duke of Reichstadt died in 1832 and was buried in Vienna. His
father had died in 1821 on St Helena (sp?) and his body was brought to
the Invalides in 1840. 100 years later, in 1940, the mortal remainders
of the Aiglon were transported to Paris.
> In short, Josef II does not have a headstone.
>
definitely
th.
John Lynch
the earliest Habsburgs were counts named Fuchs, not Wolf.
JRL
Mark D Lew
> A few years ago, a colleague in the music library stood in my door, his face a
> mask of grief, to announce that someone had just discovered 19 more
measures to
> "Martern aller Arten."
Two of my soprano friends refer to this aria as "Martern fall apart-en".
mdl
Mark D Lew
> Is this what you call an urban myth?
Yes, it is, and evidently a much older one than I realized.
Thanks to all who have followed up on this. I have a strange passion for
chasing down the origin of stories like this. Britta, can you tell me the
title, edition, and date of the "serious reference book that's gone through
all sorts of revisions and been around forever" you mentioned? Also, if
that book makes cites any earlier reference as its source, could you please
let me know that as well? Thanks so much.
mdl
thierry morice
> Thanks for the correction and clarifications! And on this bright and cloudy morn I have one of my own:
> the earliest Habsburgs were counts named Fuchs, not Wolf.
>
subject:
the cradle of the Habsburg family is in the actual Switzerland, the
"Habichtsburg" (hawk's castle) now in ruins, dominating the river
Aare.
th.
Alessandro il Grande
> But FIGARO, I dare say, is heard somewhere in major opera houses throughout
> Europe and the Americas.
>
> And that has probably been the case every year since 1786.
Perhaps........btw what other works would qualify?
A.
Alessandro il Grande
> BTW I don't think it's correct to use an umlaut with Handel's name. He anglicized his
> name when he moved to England -- George Frederick Handel.
It's just a habit...I don't know, I somehow his deutsche Name better. Don't ask why!
A.
•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•
"....JA MAAILMA PELASTUU!" -Ekomies
Alessandro il Grande
> Most of the Habsburgs are entombed in two churches in Vienna. Their hearts are
> preserved in urns in an Augustinian church, and the rest of their bodies in the
> Kaisergruft, a large vault in a Franciscan church. The earliest Habsburgs, named
> Wolf, I seem to recall, were placed in simple wooden coffins in a corner of the
> room. Succeeding generations were placed side by side in ever more elaborate
> containers, culminating in a huge sarcophagus on which effigies of Maria
> Theresia and Josef are depicted as waking up in bed "on that bright and
> cloudless morn" as though they had just heard Gabriel's horn. Josef II decided
> that such display was ridiculous--besides, they were running out of space--and
> decreed that the rest of them would be put into plain copper caskets. Franz
> Josef and Elisabeth and their son Rudolf are in an adjoining room which also
> contains a bust of Carl, who is buried elsewhere. In the larger vault, when I
> saw it in 1955, was a placard indicating a space reserved for the Herzog von
> Reichstadt, known in France as l'Aiglon, the son of Napoleon and his Austrian
> wife, who was then buried in the Invalides in Paris with his father.
>
> In short, Josef II does not have a headstone.
Thanks for an interesting and exhausting reply. I wonder where I read that
headstone-stuff....I have to go check one of these days.
Btw do you really know all that by heart or did you look it up somewhere?!
regards,
Aleksi
•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•
"I'm feeling homicidal. Say anything!"
Robert Gordon
The point of the initial claim is, no other works would qualify. Figaro is the
first. But not the last -- to mention a few: Don Giovanni, The Magic Flute, The
Barber of Seville.
-- Rob Gordon
Alessandro il Grande
> > Perhaps........btw what other works would qualify?
>
> The point of the initial claim is, no other works would qualify. Figaro is the
> first. But not the last -- to mention a few: Don Giovanni, The Magic Flute, The
> Barber of Seville.
So other works DID qualify. Of course only one can qualify as the
first/oldest.....that's not like big news.....
A
John Lynch
Alessandro il Grande wrote:
> Thanks for an interesting and exhausting reply. I wonder where I read that
> headstone-stuff....I have to go check one of these days.
>
> Btw do you really know all that by heart or did you look it up somewhere?!
>
It is one of the things I remember from being stationed in Austria in 1954-55. A
small group of us was taken through the Kaisergruft by a Franciscan friar, who knew
the names of all the people in the various boxes. When we moved into the room with
Franz Josef, Elisabeth and Rudolf, he whipped out a rosary and expected us to join
him in praying for the deceased. None of us was Roman Catholic, so we stood silently
until he finished. As we were leaving he gave us directions to the Augustinian church
where we saw the urns containing the Habsburg's hearts.
JRL
Elisa
>Thanks for an interesting and exhausting reply.
A classic 'thank-you'.
Elisa
-----
To reply directly, remove the obvious
thierry morice
> Thanks for an interesting and exhausting reply. I wonder where I read that
> headstone-stuff....I have to go check one of these days.
>
I think (but it is nothing but a vague reminiscence) Joseph II said
towards the ed of his life:
"my epitaph should be : here lies a man who failed in all his
enterprises".
Of course, no headstone etc ... but the sentence is attested (or is it
another urban legend?)
th.
Alessandro il Grande
>
> >Thanks for an interesting and exhausting reply.
>
> A classic 'thank-you'.
...? Well if that was a compliment, thank YOU. *takes another sip of
cider* d'ya think I should pay more attention....hmmh...
anyway, bon weekend
A.
•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•
I have erased the thin line between genius and insanity.
Alessandro il Grande
> It is one of the things I remember from being stationed in Austria in 1954-55. A
> small group of us was taken through the Kaisergruft by a Franciscan friar, who knew
> the names of all the people in the various boxes. When we moved into the room with
> Franz Josef, Elisabeth and Rudolf, he whipped out a rosary and expected us to join
> him in praying for the deceased. None of us was Roman Catholic, so we stood silently
> until he finished. As we were leaving he gave us directions to the Augustinian church
> where we saw the urns containing the Habsburg's hearts.
I wonder how they preserve those organs......! Are they like in deep freeze or
something?
A.
•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•
I sold my soul to the Devil. He wanted a refund!
Alessandro il Grande
> Your quotation is right, though. I think (but it is nothing but a vague
> reminiscence) Joseph II said
> towards the ed of his life: "my epitaph should be : here lies a man who
> failed in all his enterprises".
>
> Of course, no headstone etc ... but the sentence is attested (or is it
> another urban legend?)
Yeah, a similar thought crossed my mind.....that it had nothing to do with
cemeteries, it was just a funny comment uttered by the man. I'm pretty sure I
read it in of my history books....and they're supposed to be quite trustworthy
and not full of hearsay.
A.
•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•
How about a little peel & squeal at my place?
parterre box
John Lynch
Alessandro il Grande wrote:
> John Lynch wrote:
>
> > It is one of the things I remember from being stationed in Austria in 1954-55. A
> > small group of us was taken through the Kaisergruft by a Franciscan friar, who knew
> > the names of all the people in the various boxes. When we moved into the room with
> > Franz Josef, Elisabeth and Rudolf, he whipped out a rosary and expected us to join
> > him in praying for the deceased. None of us was Roman Catholic, so we stood silently
> > until he finished. As we were leaving he gave us directions to the Augustinian church
> > where we saw the urns containing the Habsburg's hearts.
>
> I wonder how they preserve those organs......! Are they like in deep freeze or
> something?
Nothing was said about preservation! I suspect that the hearts are now just dried up lumps
of mummified flesh.
The urns--bronze, from the looks of them--are on shelves in a small room, and can be seen
through a grille in the door.
JRL
Matthew B. Tepper
news:11c52029.0203...@posting.google.com:
> Larry King
Nope ... Don!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Mark D Lew
<chi...@se.sei.interessato> wrote:
> Yeah, a similar thought crossed my mind.....that it had nothing to do with
> cemeteries, it was just a funny comment uttered by the man. I'm pretty sure I
> read it in of my history books....and they're supposed to be quite trustworthy
> and not full of hearsay.
Supposed by whom? If you're talking about school textbooks, not by me.
mdl
Alessandro il Grande
> > Yeah, a similar thought crossed my mind.....that it had nothing to do with
> > cemeteries, it was just a funny comment uttered by the man. I'm pretty sure I
> > read it in of my history books....and they're supposed to be quite trustworthy
> > and not full of hearsay.
> Supposed by whom? If you're talking about school textbooks, not by me.
Not schoolbooks, I have Maailmanhistorian pikkujättiläinen (Finnish for 'the Small
Giant of World History'), a nice, small 1150-page pocketbook and then I have 6
parts of the Otavan Suuri Maailmanhistoria ('Otava's big world history') series
which comprises 22 books in full. They've been published by the two biggest
publishing houses here in Finland and should be trustworthy.
Aleksi
•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•*•
HEADLINE: Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge
Andre Storfer
supposed to be quite trustworthy and not full of hearsay.
Whoa...one assumes you're joking.
History, Mel Brooks got the essence of it right.
Andre E. Storfer
Proud Clarion
Archbishop Colloredo of Salzburg, who was known to prefer Masses of relatively
brief length?
PC
Mark D Lew
<chi...@se.sei.interessato> wrote:
> Not schoolbooks, I have Maailmanhistorian pikkujättiläinen (Finnish for
'the Small
> Giant of World History'), a nice, small 1150-page pocketbook and then I have 6
> parts of the Otavan Suuri Maailmanhistoria ('Otava's big world history')
series
> which comprises 22 books in full. They've been published by the two biggest
> publishing houses here in Finland and should be trustworthy.
Thanks. If you happen to look it up, please let me know if your book cites
a source for the quote. I want to see how far back it can be traced. So
far the earliest confirmed sighting mentioned here is G/P Dave's 1954 book.
mdl
Alessandro il Grande
> Thanks. If you happen to look it up, please let me know if your book cites
> a source for the quote. I want to see how far back it can be traced. So
> far the earliest confirmed sighting mentioned here is G/P Dave's 1954 book.
OK, I'll let you know!
A.
Britta
mark...@earthlink.net schrieb:
>Thanks. If you happen to look it up, please let me know if your book cites
>a source for the quote. I want to see how far back it can be traced. So
>far the earliest confirmed sighting mentioned here is G/P Dave's 1954 book.
Ta-DAA ta-DAA ta-DAAAAAAH --- I've got it! The source is Franz Xaver (sometimes
given as Xavier) Niemetschek, Mozart's first biographer. Published in Prague
in 1798, again in an expanded version in 1808. It was called:
Leben des k.k. Kapellmeisters Wolfgang Gottlieb Mozart nach Originalquellen
geschrieben
Niemetschek was a music critic in Prague and a great Mozart admirer. He had
an enormous correspondence with Mozart's family, and the story is that
Konstanze lent him a lot of personal family documents. His estate, which
supposedly contained all this correspondence, has been lost. (He also was
responsible for getting some of Mozart's compositions published (Breitkopf),
and took over the responsibility for the education of Mozart's son after
Mozart's death.)
Meanwhile I've found the story all over the place. You can even find it in
Groves if you look hard enough. I think it's interesting that in English
translation the words are invariably given as "too many notes." The German
doesn't have this blatant criticism. I would translate it more like "What
a lot of notes!" or something like that.
Britta
Alessandro il Grande
> Thanks. If you happen to look it up, please let me know if your book cites
> a source for the quote. I want to see how far back it can be traced. So
> far the earliest confirmed sighting mentioned here is G/P Dave's 1954 book.
I found the spot where I read it, but the book doesn't give a specific source for
the quote. There is however a list of sourcebooks at the end and the one that is
most likely to be the source for such a piece of information would be book titled
'The Revolutionary Emperor Joseph II 1741-1790' by some guy called S.K.Padover.
Aleksi
Mark D Lew
> Ta-DAA ta-DAA ta-DAAAAAAH --- I've got it! The source is Franz Xaver
(sometimes
> given as Xavier) Niemetschek, Mozart's first biographer. Published in Prague
> in 1798, again in an expanded version in 1808. It was called:
>
> Leben des k.k. Kapellmeisters Wolfgang Gottlieb Mozart nach Originalquellen
> geschrieben
Britta, you are a jewel. This makes my day. Do you have the original
text, or just a reference? I'd love to see what Niemetschek's actual words
are here -- preferably along with an approximate English translation to
help me out, but I do want to see the German.
> Meanwhile I've found the story all over the place. You can even find it in
> Groves if you look hard enough. I think it's interesting that in English
> translation the words are invariably given as "too many notes." The German
> doesn't have this blatant criticism. I would translate it more like "What
> a lot of notes!" or something like that.
In the movie Amadeus, the "too many notes" line was delivered in a very
memorable way. Perhaps the general story already existed, but it was the
movie that popularized that exact English phrase?
mdl
Matthew B. Tepper
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net:
For me, the memorable line in the play "Amadeus" is, "Well, there it is!"
Britta
mark...@earthlink.net schrieb:
>Do you have the original
>text, or just a reference? I'd love to see what Niemetschek's actual words
>are here -- preferably along with an approximate English translation to
>help me out, but I do want to see the German.
Mark, you are *such* a pain in the ass. OK, already. I dragged my poor
old bones all the way across town to the Zentralbibliothek, are you
satisfied? So I've got the book now, in a real copy of the first edition,
which means it's in little bitty tiny print in the old script, all smudgy
and hard to decipher, so my poor old eyes are giving out too.
Anything for peace in the family, or the newsgroup, or whatever.
Grumble grumble grumble!
After all the effort, the book is *great*. It's easy to see why people
call it apocryphal. This fellow relates entire conversations between
Leopold and six-year-old Wolfgang. Wolfgang's deathbed speech, as reported
by Niemetschek, is so pathetic, it's ludicrous. He also makes a big
mystery out of the death, and the mysterious messenger who commissioned
the Requiem and all that, and goes on a lot about the Italian intrigants
at court. (It sounds a *lot* like the movie, as far as I remember it.) He
keeps saying things like "I heard this from the widow's own lips," it's
really fun, the whole thing.
Anyway, the conversation is given (exactly as Hans Lick reported it here
a week or so ago):
Zu schoen fuer unsere Ohren, und gewaltig viel Noten, lieber Mozart!
Gerade so viel, Eure Majestaet, als noetig ist.
(And Niemetschek reports that Mozart gave this answer "mit jenem edlen Stolze,
und der Freimuetigkeit, die grossen Geistern so gut ansteht," which gives
you an idea of the whole tone of the book.)
Too beautiful for our ears, and a powerful lot of notes, dear Mozart!
("gewaltig viel" doesn't translate very well, sorry. You could just as
well say "a hell of a lot of notes" or something like that.)
Exactly as many, Your Majesty, as is necessary.
(If you want anything else out of this book, ask fast, because I can only
keep it two days!)
>In the movie Amadeus, the "too many notes" line was delivered in a very
>memorable way. Perhaps the general story already existed, but it was the
>movie that popularized that exact English phrase?
I dunno.
Britta
David Melnick
> Mark, you are *such* a pain in the ass. OK, already. I dragged my poor
> old bones all the way across town to the Zentralbibliothek, are you
> satisfied? So I've got the book now, in a real copy of the first edition,
> which means it's in little bitty tiny print in the old script, all smudgy
> and hard to decipher, so my poor old eyes are giving out too.
>
> Anything for peace in the family, or the newsgroup, or whatever.
Dear Britta,
You're wonderful.
(Please note that I didn't tar you with that
famous ambiguous word "nice," in such poor
repute on r.m.o.)
Sincerely,
David
P.S. Some great first editions disappeared from
the San Francisco Public Library when staff members
discarded books they didn't think were important
at the time of the library's move to its new building.
Come to think of it, that one fact should eliminate
S.F. from consideration in the little "world-class city"
contest recently held on r.m.o. Fortunately,
the libraries at Berkeley and Stanford are nearby.
Mark D Lew
<dmel...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> P.S. Some great first editions disappeared from
> the San Francisco Public Library when staff members
> discarded books they didn't think were important
> at the time of the library's move to its new building.
> Come to think of it, that one fact should eliminate
> S.F. from consideration in the little "world-class city"
> contest recently held on r.m.o.
Yes, that was absolutely shameful. I want to leave little notes on the
shelves saying, "hey, if you ever decide to throw this book away, please
give it to me instead."
The Oakland library is no better. I remember once I had borrowed an old
score, and I photocopied a few pages from it there at the library before
taking it home. The book was falling apart, so the pages I was copying were
loose.
After I got home, I realized that the last page I copied I had left in the
photocopier. So I immediately phoned them up (this was about 15 minutes
later), to let them know. The guy checked the photocopier, and reported
back to me, "Sorry, it's gone now," as if that were tough luck for me. I
tried to explain to him that I don't need the page (I have my copy, after
all), but I was calling for the sake of the book. I could tell he was
rather clueless, so I asked him to just tell me where such a page would be
taken if it were found, figuring that next time I was in I'd chase it down
myself and get it back into the book where it belongs. He assured me that
if such a page were found loose in the photocopier they would simply throw
it away. I was speechless.
When I returned the book, I left my photocopied page in there, so at least
the next person doesn't find the page missing entirely.
mdl
Mark D Lew
> Mark, you are *such* a pain in the ass. OK, already. I dragged my poor
> old bones all the way across town to the Zentralbibliothek, are you
> satisfied?
I'm delighted with the information you've provided -- thanks so much! --
but distressed at the thought that it caused you such trouble.
I hope my request wasn't too inconsiderate. If so, my excuse is that it
would never occur to me that a trip to the library could ever be
unpleasant. :-)
mdl
Britta
mark...@earthlink.net schrieb:
>> Mark, you are *such* a pain in the ass. OK, already. I dragged my poor
>> old bones all the way across town to the Zentralbibliothek, are you
>> satisfied?
>
>I'm delighted with the information you've provided -- thanks so much! --
>but distressed at the thought that it caused you such trouble.
>
>I hope my request wasn't too inconsiderate. If so, my excuse is that it
>would never occur to me that a trip to the library could ever be
>unpleasant. :-)
Oh, good grief. I obviously need to learn to use those silly :-)
things. All my grumbling was meant as a joke. We Bavarians have a
reputation for being "grantig" that we have to keep up, you know. I
thought my complaining would be exaggerated enough that you would
realize I wasn't serious.
First, it's not a big deal, and second, it interested me too. Now
I've got to look around and see if this book has been ever translated.
You would *love* it. It's just really hard to read in its present
state, that's all.
Britta
Mark D Lew
> Oh, good grief. I obviously need to learn to use those silly :-)
> things. All my grumbling was meant as a joke.
Yes, I know.
Forget about the smiley face. I tried one just now, but it didn't work.
> We Bavarians have a
> reputation for being "grantig" that we have to keep up, you know. I
> thought my complaining would be exaggerated enough that you would
> realize I wasn't serious.
I always take you seriously, Britta. But don't worry, I'm never offended. I
just play along.
This lovey-dovey thing isn't working for us. We should try bickering again,
like we used to. Ah, those were the days. Maybe someone will start a
Nabucco thread to get the ball rolling.
> First, it's not a big deal, and second, it interested me too. Now
> I've got to look around and see if this book has been ever translated.
> You would *love* it.
Yes, that was my thought, too. It's on my list to look for.
mdl
orphee
mark...@earthlink.net says...
>
>In article <a61qh...@drn.newsguy.com>, Britta <britt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> We Bavarians have a
>> reputation for being "grantig"
Jo Britta, please stay "grantig", a good-natured Bavarian is an oxymoron!
So please don't change, I love you 'so wie Du bist - vom Scheitel bis zur
Sohle':-)))
Dein Orpherl
>I always take you seriously, Britta. But don't worry, I'm never offended. I
>just play along.
Mark, you just don't understand Bavarian humor :-))))
Orphee
Britta
>Jo Britta, please stay "grantig", a good-natured Bavarian is an oxymoron!
Orpherl --- wenn i Di nit hätt!
Deine Resi
Britta
mark...@earthlink.net schrieb:
>We should try bickering again,
>like we used to. Ah, those were the days. Maybe someone will start a
>Nabucco thread to get the ball rolling.
How nice that you don't hold a grudge or anything like that.
Britta
Andre Storfer
AES
Mark D Lew
> How nice that you don't hold a grudge or anything like that.
But it's such a nice grudge.
--
In article <a62eb...@drn.newsguy.com>, orphee <orph...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Mark, you just don't understand Bavarian humor :-))))
No doubt. I don't think I understand British humor either. I have no ear
for irony.
mdl
orphee
>In article <a62eb...@drn.newsguy.com>, orphee <orph...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mark, you just don't understand Bavarian humor :-))))
>
>No doubt. I don't think I understand British humor either. I have no ear
>for irony.
Poor Mark,
You don't know what you are missing. Humor and irony makes our life sweeter!
:-)))))))))
Orphee
Gary Holtzman
>
> It is one of the things I remember from being stationed in Austria in
> 1954-55. A small group of us was taken through the Kaisergruft by a
> Franciscan friar, who knew the names of all the people in the various
> boxes. When we moved into the room with Franz Josef, Elisabeth and
> Rudolf, he whipped out a rosary and expected us to join him in praying
> for the deceased. None of us was Roman Catholic, so we stood silently
> until he finished. As we were leaving he gave us directions to the
> Augustinian church where we saw the urns containing the Habsburg's
> hearts.
The Kaisergruft is currently open to the general public. I visited about two
or three years ago when I was in Vienna.
--
Gary Holtzman
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