Di quella pira
Stregata
On Oct. 21 Erik jan van Sten wrote:
But to me the definitive Trovatore recording is Giulini's, with Domingo
as Manrico - his Di quella pira is also one of the most beautiful I ever
heard, much better than his later Manrico with Levine. To appreciate
Giulini's conducting you have to like slow tempos, but once you adjust
yourself to them this recording is fabulous.
If you like to listen to a strangled voice, coupled with a non-existent high C
at the end of Di quella pira, then not only Giulini's Il Trovatore is for you
but Methta's and Levine's, as well.
TomKauf2
Di quella pira has long been one of my favorite arias--if sung by the right
tenor.
As far as Domingo's feeble attempts at it are concerned, the less said, the
better.
I sure agree with Don Paolo that the two Francos did a great job--but would
like to mention a feew more:
John O'Sullivan--makes you sit up and take notice
Nino Piccaluga
Antonio Paoli
But O'Sullivan's is my personal favorite.
Cheers
Tom
Orliac
Tom Kaufman said:
>As far as Domingo's feeble attempts at it are concerned, the less said, the
> better.
do not sound like their records.
Tom said:
>like to mention a feew more:
>
>John O'Sullivan--makes you sit up and take notice
>Nino Piccaluga
>Antonio Paoli
I would like to add Filipeschi, Salvarezza, Soler, Lazaro, Lois, Lauri Volpi,
De Muro, Slezak, Tamagno, Biel, Fisichella, Gilion.
Al
donpaolo
DOMINGO's "Di quella pira", no matter what stage of his all too
undeservedly lengthy career, was an ear insulting abomination.
No question, the very best "pira" was sung by the Francos - Corelli &
Bonisolli. They both made the call to arms believable & genuine; as
opposed to that strangulated call fot an otorhinolaryngologist that Domingo
croaked out!
Stregata <stre...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971022002...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
Hornymd590
>Di quella pira has long been one of my favorite arias--if sung by the right
> tenor.
>
> better.
I've mentioned this before, but there is an anecdote in the book "Sopranos,
Mezzos...." about Domingo as Manrico. At the Met in the 70's, he was SOOOO
terrified of the high C at the end of "pira" that he during one performance he
demanded William Lewis be in the pit as a "backup" ghost voice just in case he
felt he couldn't sing it. In the end, Lewis didn't need to sing a note but
this displays just how much trouble he has always had with this role.
This being the case, it's funny that the most recommended recordings of
Trovatore (Penguin Guide, Good CD Guide, Rough Guide, Virgin, BBC, etc.) seem
to have him as Manrico! I guess he was lucky to have worked with the right
people since his three assumptions alone (RCA with Mehta/Price, DG with
Giulini and Sony with Levine) certainly wouldn't have merited such praise. I
love him as Otello, Samson, Don Carlo, Radames and many others; but Manrico is
definitely NOT the role he will be remembered for. Thank God he never
attempted Tonio in "Daughter of the Regiment"! (eeegads!!!!)
Dan
Ed Rosen
Hi-
Re the post about Domingo being so afraid of the C that he had William
Lewis stand by: I too have heard this story, and I don't doubt it.
The part that is wrong is that he was afraid of the C. He was afraid
of the B or Bb, the keys he always sang this piece in. NEVER in C!!
Best,
ED
JJ
I just love the freshness and new insights of this thread!
Jon
ALAN H. PORTIGAL
TomKauf2 wrote:
> Di quella pira has long been one of my favorite arias--if sung by the right
> tenor.
>
> As far as Domingo's feeble attempts at it are concerned, the less said, the
> better.
>
> I sure agree with Don Paolo that the two Francos did a great job--but would
> like to mention a feew more:
>
> John O'Sullivan--makes you sit up and take notice
> Nino Piccaluga
> Antonio Paoli
>
> But O'Sullivan's is my personal favorite.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tom
I have always figured the Di quella pira stakes go to Tamagno, Caruso, or
Bjorling. The early Corelli is very good.
Cheers,
Alan
TomKauf2
Commspkmn stated:
>I just think it's a shame that we judge an overall performance of a role by a
single note that the composer didn't even write.
Whether it's a shame or not, it is the truth. Some of use care more about high
notes than others. Others care more about things like style, vocal beauty,
etc.
And there is more to the pira than the high note (I really don't care that
Verdi didn't write it, and thought that Baucarde-the creator of the role-was a
madman for inserting it) I want the tenors who sing it to be absolutely
overwhelming--tremendous virility, climaxed by the high "C". Unfortunately,
some tenors who have been named previously in this thread as ideal
interpreters, just don't have it all. They have some of the qualities--but, to
me, a pira without the high "C" is like a great meal without winde is to many
Frenchmen.
BTW, if a tenor has a particularily beautiful voice -e.g. the young Carreras,
I can forgive many shortcomings in the upper register--but not as Manrico or
Arnoldo.
Cheers
Tom
>
>
Commspkmn
TomKauf2 wrote:
<<Whether it's a shame or not, it is the truth. Some of use care more about
high
notes than others. Others care more about things like style, vocal beauty,
etc.
And there is more to the pira than the high note (I really don't care that
Verdi didn't write it, and thought that Baucarde-the creator of the role-was a
madman for inserting it) I want the tenors who sing it to be absolutely
overwhelming--tremendous virility, climaxed by the high "C". Unfortunately,
some tenors who have been named previously in this thread as ideal
interpreters, just don't have it all. They have some of the qualities--but, to
me, a pira without the high "C" is like a great meal without winde is to many
Frenchmen.
BTW, if a tenor has a particularily beautiful voice -e.g. the young Carreras,
I can forgive many shortcomings in the upper register--but not as Manrico or
Arnoldo.>>
Well, Arnoldo in William Tell has many written high C's as opposed to the
interpolated ones in Di Quella Pira for Manrico. If a Manrico is only worthy
if he has a top C for Di Quella Pira, than we would have to eliminate from
consideration such tenors as Enrico Caruso, Franco Corelli, Carlo Bergonzi,
Mario Del Monaco, Jussi Bjoerling, Richard Tucker-to name just a few singers
who, at one time or another either in recordings or live performances,
transposed the cabaletta down to B.
A is A
TomKauf2 wrote in message <19971022170...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> ...a pira without the high "C" is like a great meal without winde is to
many
> Frenchmen.
You're thinking of Germans.
Commspkmn
<<I've mentioned this before, but there is an anecdote in the book "Sopranos,
Mezzos...." about Domingo as Manrico. At the Met in the 70's, he was SOOOO
terrified of the high C at the end of "pira" that he during one performance he
demanded William Lewis be in the pit as a "backup" ghost voice just in case he
felt he couldn't sing it. In the end, Lewis didn't need to sing a note but
this displays just how much trouble he has always had with this role.
This being the case, it's funny that the most recommended recordings of
Trovatore (Penguin Guide, Good CD Guide, Rough Guide, Virgin, BBC, etc.) seem
to have him as Manrico! I guess he was lucky to have worked with the right
people since his three assumptions alone (RCA with Mehta/Price, DG with
Giulini and Sony with Levine) certainly wouldn't have merited such praise. I
love him as Otello, Samson, Don Carlo, Radames and many others; but Manrico is
definitely NOT the role he will be remembered for. Thank God he never
Sure, Domingo was terrified of the unwritten high "C" (or even the transposed
"B") in "Di Quella Pira." But there is a lot more to this role than that one
note. I recall a 1970's broadcast from the Met with Domingo and Caballe.
Again, the high note in "Di Quella Pira" is strained, but everything else is
committed, and sung with beautiful legato.
I think Carlo Bergonzi was also a superb Manrico (as evidenced by his DGG
studio recording) and a new Opera D'Oro reissue of a 1964 La Scala performance
in Moscow. But he too transposed the cabaletta in live performance.
Claud H. Shirley III
Commspkmn wrote:
> I think Carlo Bergonzi was also a superb Manrico (as evidenced by his DGG
> studio recording) and a new Opera D'Oro reissue of a 1964 La Scala performance
> in Moscow. But he too transposed the cabaletta in live performance.
Not, as I mentioned in a previous posting, when I heard him.
Ed Rosen
I hope all great meals come without winde. Now wine- that's another
story. I don't think it causes winde. Now beans- that's another
story.
>
TomKauf2
Commspkmn wrote:
"> If a Manrico is only worthy if he has a top C for Di Quella Pira, than we
would have to eliminate from consideration such tenors as Enrico Caruso,
Franco Corelli, Carlo Bergonzi,
> Mario Del Monaco, Jussi Bjoerling, Richard Tucker-to name just a few singers
who, at one time or another either in recordings or live performances,
transposed the cabaletta down to B.
While I certainly agree with him in principle as far as many of thse tenors are
concerned--I did not say "at one time or another". I suspect that many
(most???, all????) tenors transpose at one time or another, forr one reason or
another. It's the ones who transpose all (or most) of the time that I object
to. And as another newsgroup member pointed out, Carreras may be superb in "Ah
si ben mio", but wanting in the "pira". Nobody ever said that the world of
opera is a rose garden, any more than the corporate world--and just as most
corporate managers are judged by how well they handled their most recent
crisis, tenors who tacke Manrico will be judged by the cabaletta, not the
andante. Carreras may be a wonderful Alfredo or Rodolfo--but a Manrico he
isn't.
>
Cheers
Tom
Joel P. Klein
I just bought the 1963 Florence Trovatore with Caballe and Tucker.
Tucker was in absolutely glorious voice. Certainly, it's transposed
down a half tone, but the voice and technique are so very secure.
Before criticism is made of the greats for this transposition, we need
to realize that concert pitch has been continually rising. While this
creates little problem for the pianist or violinist, for a spinto or
dramatic tenor it can be dreadful. While we know that Tucker or
Corelli could sing ringing high C's, in live performance they had to
pace themselves.
Stregata
On Oct. 22 Dan wrote:
Speaking of the young Carreras, his Trovatore with Davis has one of the more
> strained versions of "Di quella pira". But listen to "Ah si ben mio"
>leading
> up to it and you've got a wonderful example of just how beautiful his voice
> once was. It's not as impressive as his Tosca with the same conductor (his
> voice showing sings of deterioration over the five or so years since that
> recording), but a marvel nevertheless. Where did this voice go?
>
>Dan
>
>
Ah yes, where did this voice go? A non-pareil golden voice which filled the
decade of the 70's with his glorious singing. Early Verdi, Rossini,
Donizetti, some Puccini, those were the composers that suited Jose's voice.
He lasted only a decade. By the early 80's his voice sounded strained and had
lost that golden quality that so resembled the young Di Stefano.
Where did the voice go? They say he lost it with his illness. When illness
struck the voice had gone already.. Possible causes: Greed, ill-advised
repertory, trying to achieve too much too soon, and perhaps taking his
God-given voice for granted.
The same as Pavarotti, Carreras filled an era for us his admirers. Thank God
we have his recordings and the remembrance of his live performances. There
will always be one Jose for us his fans: The golden-voiced Jose.
>
>
E.J. van Sten
Exactly! I am as crazy as a door to love this recording. I also like
Domingo's Otello, Don Carlos, Duca, Alfredo and many other roles, so it
can't be an incident...anybody know a good clinic?
EJ
Stregata wrote:
> On Oct. 21 Erik jan van Sten wrote:
>
> But to me the definitive Trovatore recording is Giulini's, with
> Domingo
> as Manrico - his Di quella pira is also one of the most beautiful I
> ever
> heard, much better than his later Manrico with Levine. To appreciate
> Giulini's conducting you have to like slow tempos, but once you adjust
>
> yourself to them this recording is fabulous.
>
> If you like to listen to a strangled voice, coupled with a
> non-existent high C
Claud H. Shirley III
> been early in his career.
No. It was fairly late, sometime around '72, at the Civic Center in
Atlanta, with the met on Tour, in a cast that included Scotto, MacNeil,
Cossotto, and Vinnco, with Levine conducting. He sang Rodolfo the same
week, if you want to look it up in the Annals. I have taught music,
performed as a tenor, and coached singers for years. The usual
transposition occurs on the words "suo figlio!" more specifically on the
first syllable of figlio, where Verdi has written a high A, accompanied
by a diminished chord (diminished chords by their nature, minor third on
minor third, are circular, and lend themselves to modulation in any
direction) - most tenors choose to lower to an A-flat at this point,
leading the key of the bridge section down a half-step to resolve
finally in F-sharp, which is the dominant leading to the tonic key of B
major, the usual lowered key, although I have also heard this cabaletta
lowered to B-flat as well. If you are listening for it, the lift to the
High A on "figlio" com'e scritto, a whole step instead of a half step,
and it is unmistakable to a trained ear. Furthermore, we were all
waiting to see if he would do it or not. I can tell you that his
rendition that evening sounded almost identical to the version he
recorded for his complete Verdi arias set on Philips. The C's, on "pur
teco" and "all'armi" were not easy, it took him a moment to tune, but
they were real, resonant, and in the fashion that he employed, swelled
until they took on his characteristic baritonal hue before the cut-off.
I might add, that once he was set on the final C, he strode off stage,
waving his sword, in an attitude of personal victory, as well as
dramatic defiance.
Commspkmn
<<I can tell you that his
rendition that evening sounded almost identical to the version he
recorded for his complete Verdi arias set on Philips. The C's, on "pur
teco" and "all'armi" were not easy, it took him a moment to tune, but
they were real, resonant, and in the fashion that he employed, swelled
until they took on his characteristic baritonal hue before the cut-off.
I might add, that once he was set on the final C, he strode off stage,
waving his sword, in an attitude of personal victory, as well as
dramatic defiance.>>
GregF NC
>GreF NC!!! Sometimes you don't engage your brain before making these
>statements. Ticker *regularly* sang BOHEME at the Met. In fact, it's the
>first opera I heard him sing in the old house. :+)
Maybe you meant this in a friendly manner, I'll try to take it as such.
While we're on the subject of brain engagement though, are you not aware that
"Che gelida manina" is also often transposed down? I suppose now you're going
to tell me that "Ticker "regularly"" sang the high C here as well.
Greg Fitzmaurice
Durham, NC
Commspkmn
<<Bergonzi always lowered the Pira- back to his Met debut in 1956. I saw
him do the role on tour in the late 70's, also, and the Pira was
lowered. The transposition may have taken place at another spot, not
the traditional "sua figlio", but it was surely lowered.>>
That's what I had always thought. I was surprised to hear that he took it "in
key" during the latter stages of his career.
Commspkmn
<<I wasn't aware that Richard Tucker ever sang a high C, live or recorded.>>
I believe he sings a high C in his RCA recording of La Boheme.
Richard Wall
GreF NC!!! Sometimes you don't engage your brain before making these
statements. Ticker *regularly* sang BOHEME at the Met. In fact, it's the
first opera I heard him sing in the old house. :+)
GregF NC wrote:
>
> >While we know that Tucker or
> >Corelli could sing ringing high C's
>
> I wasn't aware that Richard Tucker ever sang a high C, live or recorded.
>
> Greg Fitzmaurice
> Durham, NC
Joel P. Klein
gre...@aol.com (GregF NC) wrote:
>>While we know that Tucker or
>>Corelli could sing ringing high C's
>
>I wasn't aware that Richard Tucker ever sang a high C, live or recorded.
>
>Greg Fitzmaurice
>Durham, NC
>
Oh yes, and quite easily! Listen to the Ballo duet, just released on
Sony, with Eileen Farrell.
I believe that Tucker knew his instrument extremely well. He was
probably the most reliable tenor of that generation of great tenors.
(How I wish we had them on stage today!)
I also bought the Sony Boheme with Sayao and Tucker that was recorded
in the late 40s. While the big notes are transposed down that semi
tone, they are easily produced with plenty of squillo.
tom_hamilton
In article , comm...@aol.com says...
Why is it that I have not seen the name of Luciano Pavarotti ???
I am familiar with his rendition of this Di Quella Pira and Ah si only through
recordings. IMHO LP's performance ranks right up there with all the so-called
best.
Any comments?
Be well:
Tom
Commspkmn
<<Why is it that I have not seen the name of Luciano Pavarotti ???
I am familiar with his rendition of this Di Quella Pira and Ah si only through
recordings. IMHO LP's performance ranks right up there with all the so-called
best.>>
If you want to hear a fine representation of Pavarotti's Manrico, try an issue
on the BellaVoce label of a 1975 performance from San Francisco, with
Pavarotti, Sutherland, Obraztsova and Wixell. It's a performance that reminds
you of why Pavarotti created such a sensation back in those days.
il Doge
I used to have an LP entitled "20 Tenors, 1 Aria." It was
"Di quella pira" sung by 20 different tenors. I can't even
remember who all of them were, but I do remember that the
one with Caruso sported a high C held for (gee can't remember
that one either... 28 seconds???). I always thought it
sounded like it had been altered somehow.
I just got a new turntable after being without one for several
years. I am going to get all my old vinyl out. Maybe I still
have this one.
--
Dal
JQS
Remember Mario del Monaco?
It's fantastic in that aria
Regards
JQS
John L Molloy <jmo...@superiway.net> wrote in article
<62qmug$9...@nr1.calgary.istar.net>...
> If I had to pick my favourite di quella recording, it would be
> probably be Carlo Bergonzi's.
>
>
Mike Richter
GlennGr wrote:
>
> Pedro laVirgen did DQP?
Westminster Gold LP WGS-8214 "Viva LaVirgen"
> I thought he was a zarzuela singer, and not an overly
> impressive one at that. Will have to check him out a little closer.
Not on the basis of what I hear on that LP.
Mike
mric...@mindspring.com
http://mrichter.simplenet.com
CD-R http://resource.simplenet.com