Most Overrated Opera
TODD DISSINGER
the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the stage?
Remember, everyone has an opinion.
Todd
Bill Clark
Ok, how about Barber of Seville?
Juliet A. Youngren
I adore Rossini, and I don't limit my appreciation to his comic
works, but I truly fail to see what people enjoy in _Semiramide_.
J.A.Y.
John Feather
REGGIMENT; and used those casts for DON PASQUALE, TURCO IN ITALIA, SONNAMBULA, COMPTE
ORY and perhaps even LAKME.
IMHO!!! IDOMENEO shows up more often than I care to listen to it, and I
would love to see those same resources used on a one-time revival of some
Cherubini or Spontini.
joa...@rain.org
same. Die Zauberflote should only be presented as "Magic Flute Lite" in a
much abbreviated form.
Never figured why so many people like Verdi's "Falstaff". Recently
suffered through an intermnible SFO "Herodiae" which wasn't much better than
"Les Troyans".
Under appreciated opera may be "Xerxes". LA Opera did a fabulous
job with it this season.
R. Stauss' "Elektra" can drive them screaming from the hallowed halls.
--
arnold v. lesikar
> OVER RATED: Anything by Mozart. Most of his works all sound the
>same. Die Zauberflote should only be presented as "Magic Flute Lite" in a
>much abbreviated form.
Well the Magic Flute is hardly my favorite either, except for the Queen of
the Night Aria, which is still magic for me.
But I have never tired of any of the Da Ponte/Mozart operas. I particularly
love the ensembles of Cosi, and the long finale of Act 1.
>
> Never figured why so many people like Verdi's "Falstaff". Recently
>suffered through an intermnible SFO "Herodiae" which wasn't much better than
>"Les Troyans".
i have trouble appreciating Falstaff too at this point. But it was Verdi's
last opera, written at the age of 80. I think you have to look at it as a
summing up of his life in music. Probably one has to be familiar with the
rest of Verdi's work to appreciate Falstaff. I am still working my way
through Verdi. Myself, I am not ready for Falstaff yet.
> R. Stauss' "Elektra" can drive them screaming from the hallowed halls.
Oh yes! The recent broadcast of Elektra on PBS with Hildegard Behrens was a
powerful emotional experience. Finally I began to understand what Aristotle
meant by "catharsis!" The emotional impact must have been much like that in
the Athens theater at the time of Sophocles, Aeschylus, and Euripides.
Juliet A. Youngren
I'll second the wish for more _Don Pasquale_. That was one of the
first operas I managed to sit all the way through (telecast with
Beverly Sills--late '70s/early '80s? I was about 11) and I'd love
to see it again.
Dream cast would have to include Harolyn Blackwell as Norina, after
hearing her rendition of "Quando il cavaliere" at the Richard Tucker
gala a couple of years ago.
J.A.Y.
Mitchell Weitz
>Dream cast would have to include Harolyn Blackwell as Norina, after
>hearing her rendition of "Quando il cavaliere" at the Richard Tucker
>gala a couple of years ago.
Norina's aria is "Quel guardo il cavaliere".
Mitchell Weitz mwe...@pipeline.com
David Oyen
>
>Just for the heck of it, are there any operas out there that have been on
>the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
>dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
>that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the stage?
Death to Parsifal
Ditto the Italian version of Don Carlo(s)
How about Medee and Don Carlos?
The French versions of course.
Could we see a revival of something by Meyerbeer?
(And this from a Wagnerian)
How about Robert le Diable?
Maybe von Weber's Oberon in English, the way it was written!
Just some off the cuff wishes.
David Oyen
tha...@netcom17.netcom.com
:
: Just for the heck of it, are there any operas out there that have been on
: dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
: that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the stage?
: Remember, everyone has an opinion.
:
: Todd
I'm probably only exposing my own limitations, but I cannot
derive much pleasure from DER ROSENKAVALIER. If it disappeared from
the repertoire I wouldn't miss it.
Thalia
Ruggero Andrea Ruschioni
: In article <3oh54k$n...@ralph.vnet.net> to...@vnet.net (TODD DISSINGER) writes:
: :
: : Just for the heck of it, are there any operas out there that have been on
: : the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
: : dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
: : that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the stage?
: :
: : Remember, everyone has an opinion.
: :
: : Todd
I think there is a lot of great contemporary operas which are never staged.
I'd love to see Corigliano's Ghost of Versailles go to hell and give some
space to Penderecki's Der Teufel von Lodun or Ligeti's Le Gran Macabre.
RR
David Pickering
>the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
>dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
>that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the stage?
>
>Remember, everyone has an opinion.
>
>Todd
Cilea's ADRIANA LECOUVREUR is an opera I've always thought was highly
over-rated. However the number of performances of it have gone down
recently.
Personally I don't think it's a question of some works being performed
too much as much as it is that there are some works which are not
performed enough. Opera companies do need to ensure that they will sell
enough tickets and get enough donations to stay afloat so each year they
keep putting up sure sellers like LA BOHEME, TRAVIATA, CARMEN, IL
BARBIERE, DON GIOVANNI, etc. because they know they can always fill
their seats.
Unfortunately putting on unfamiliar works includes a larger element of
risk then staging the old warhorses. In these times, when government
funding will probably all-but-disappear, and private donations become
harder to get as corporate sponsors are forced to tighten their belts
and "downsize", most opera companies are very hesitant to take on those
risks. Companies in major metropolitan areas like New York or Chicago
have the luxury of having enough opera goers with esoteric tastes that
they can produce new or unfamiliar works and still get enough receipts
so they don't lose their collective shirts.
Dave
dp...@andrew.cmu.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The future will be better tomorrow.
-- Former Vice President Dan Quayle
David Pickering
by John Fea...@access4.dig
> REGGIMENT; and used those casts for DON PASQUALE, TURCO IN ITALIA,
SONNAMBULA, C
> OMPTE
> ORY and perhaps even LAKME.
I definitely agree with you about DON PASQUALE. Other Donizetti operas
I would like to see performed more often are ROBERTO DEVEREUX and ANNA
BOLENA. SONNAMBULA was reportedly Queen Victoria's favorite opera, both
it and NORMA seem to have all-but-disappeared from the repertoire since
Callas died and Sutherland and Sills retired.
I still hope that the Met's production last year of Dvorak's RUSALKA
will lead to more performances of this opera. The collapse of communism
seems to have had a positive effect on the production of Russian and
Easter European opera (witness the Kirov Opera's recent cycle of Russian
operas). I can only hope that Janacek's JENUFA gains more performances
as well.
>
> IMHO!!! IDOMENEO shows up more often than I care to listen to it, and I
> would love to see those same resources used on a one-time revival of some
> Cherubini or Spontini.
Until just a few years ago, IDOMENEO was almost never performed so it
may be a bit premature to call this one a warhorse.
David Pickering
> same. Die Zauberflote should only be presented as "Magic Flute Lite" in a
> much abbreviated form.
I must strongly disagree. If productions of Mozart have a flaw it's
that too many directors downplay the comic elements. I personally love
ZAUBERFLOTE and the Mozart/De Ponte operas.
>
> Never figured why so many people like Verdi's "Falstaff".
Maybe because we it, along with OTELLO are the two most perfect operas
Verdi ever wrote--great music combined with the almost flawless libretti
of Boito. I'm personally glad that Verdi's last opera was a comedy, his
only other comedy, UN GIORNO DI REGNO is not bad but it was one of
Verdi's earlier operas and sounds to my ears more like Donizetti than
Verdi.
> Recently
> suffered through an intermnible SFO "Herodiae" which wasn't much better than
> "Les Troyans".
I happen to like LES TROYENS so that's hardly a condemnation, IMHO.
>
> Under appreciated opera may be "Xerxes". LA Opera did a fabulous
> job with it this season.
>
> R. Stauss' "Elektra" can drive them screaming from the
hallowed halls.
Or standing in ovation. I still think George Solti's recording of this
opera with Birgit Nilsson is one of the most intense experiences in
recorded opera.
David Pickering
> first operas I managed to sit all the way through (telecast with
> to see it again.
>
> Dream cast would have to include Harolyn Blackwell as Norina, after
> hearing her rendition of "Quando il cavaliere" at the Richard Tucker
> gala a couple of years ago.
I wouldn't mind hearing Ruth Ann Swenson sing the role either:)
Robert Matthews
(Bill Clark) wrote:
> In article <3oh54k$n...@ralph.vnet.net>, to...@vnet.net (TODD DISSINGER) says:
> >
> >Just for the heck of it, are there any operas out there that have been on
> >the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
> >dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
> >that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the stage?
> Ok, how about Barber of Seville?
My first instinct was "La Traviata",another one of those warhorses
every opera company seems to drag out every other season to suck the
subscribers in. But then I thought about this and realized that if I never
hear "Una Voce Poco Fa" again as long as I live I'd be perfectly happy. So
"Barber" it is.
Robert Matthews
=====================================================
"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.
"I don't much care where--" said Alice.
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.
=====================================================
Phil Miller
: Well the Magic Flute is hardly my favorite either, except for the Queen of
: the Night Aria, which is still magic for me.
While after a dozen or so listenings to the Magic Flute I have become
tired of the simpler melodies, I still find the Masonic ritual sections
to be some of the most sublime music anywhere. Especially great
is the guy who sings the head Mason part in the 1937 Beecham recording
(and it's got better sound than one would think).
philll
Mike Quigley
>: R. Stauss' "Elektra" can drive them screaming from the hallowed halls.
>I really like Elektra, but I am amazed at its general popularity.
I a society where people can watch the OJ Simpson trial on TV as well as
the most lurid talk shows, I have no problems in seeing why Elektra is
popular.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shameless plug: My home page -- http://mindlink.net/a4369/mq.html
Interviews with The Beach Boys, Alice Cooper, Pink Floyd and more!
Phil Miller
: OVER RATED: Anything by Mozart. Most of his works all sound the
: same. Die Zauberflote should only be presented as "Magic Flute Lite" in a
: much abbreviated form.
And then there are those of us to whom Mozart *is* opera.
: R. Stauss' "Elektra" can drive them screaming from the hallowed halls.
I really like Elektra, but I am amazed at its general popularity.
philll
Christopher Rickey
On Mon, 8 May 1995 tha...@netcom17.netcom.com wrote:
> In article <3oh54k$n...@ralph.vnet.net> to...@vnet.net (TODD DISSINGER) writes:
> :
> : Just for the heck of it, are there any operas out there that have been on
> : the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
> : dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
> : that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the stage?
> :
> : Remember, everyone has an opinion.
> :
> : Todd
>
> I'm probably only exposing my own limitations, but I cannot
> derive much pleasure from DER ROSENKAVALIER. If it disappeared from
> the repertoire I wouldn't miss it.
> Thalia
>
>
I'll second that recommendation.
Pete
: Just for the heck of it, are there any operas out there that have been on
: the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
: dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
: that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the stage?
I saw IL TROVATORE at the Met a while back. Maybe I was having a bad
day, but - nothing to do with the performance - I thought the opera
was gloomy and tedious and I wished I had spent the money on something else.
Pete
g.f.
Christopher Rickey <stg...@fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>
>> I'm probably only exposing my own limitations, but I cannot
>> derive much pleasure from DER ROSENKAVALIER. If it disappeared from
>> the repertoire I wouldn't miss it.
>> Thalia
>
>I'll second that recommendation.
Oh dear, I feel like leaping to the defense of something I love,
though of course this is all opinion! I realize it's quite an
acquired taste, but honestly: on stage it's magic! I was in
heaven all three and a half hours while my friends admittedly
were squirming at the Houston production :) My vote for overrated
might go instead to Manon Lescaut, or Butterfly. Hmmm Fidelio
is mighty hard to sit through, too. But I figure at some point
I'll end up liking all of them. That's the funny thing about
music: give stuff a try a year later and see what you think!
Ruggero Andrea Ruschioni
: On Mon, 8 May 1995 tha...@netcom17.netcom.com wrote:
: > In article <3oh54k$n...@ralph.vnet.net> to...@vnet.net (TODD DISSINGER) writes:
: > :
: > : Just for the heck of it, are there any operas out there that have been on
: > : the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
: > : dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
: > : that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the stage?
: > :
: > : Remember, everyone has an opinion.
: > :
: > : Todd
: >
: > I'm probably only exposing my own limitations, but I cannot
: > derive much pleasure from DER ROSENKAVALIER. If it disappeared from
: > the repertoire I wouldn't miss it.
: > Thalia
: >
: >
: I'll second that recommendation.
NO WAY.....Except if replaced by Elektra or Salome :)
(Just thought to balance the discussion a little...)
R
Panther
tha...@netcom17.netcom.com writes:
>In article <3oh54k$n...@ralph.vnet.net> to...@vnet.net (TODD DISSINGER) writes:
>:
>: Just for the heck of it, are there any operas out there that have been on
>: the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
>: dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
>: that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the stage?
>:
>: Remember, everyone has an opinion.
>:
>: Todd
> I'm probably only exposing my own limitations, but I cannot
>derive much pleasure from DER ROSENKAVALIER. If it disappeared from
>the repertoire I wouldn't miss it.
Pagliacci gets my vote.
James Lewis
I know the response I'll get, but anything by Wagner (except
Meistersinger and Dutchman) would not be missed by this opera buff.
I'm already taking cover.
--
Jim Lewis - jk...@freenet.scri.fsu.edu
. . . Without ecology . . . there would _be_ no economy.
joa...@rain.org
: philll
--
I recently was asked to teach an introductory class called Gems
of German Opera. I gagged knowing thatI could not avoid including
something from my dreaded Mozart. Luckily the program was printed with
the tite "Gems of 19th Century German Opera and I escaped. So since my
opera tastes seem off base to several of the responders, I am dying to
get your reactions to my choice for an INTRODUCTORY opera class for
seniro citizens for Elderhostel. I chose excerpts for a four day(2hrs)
class as follows: (I know I strecthed the 19th Century a bit with R Stauss)
1. Die Fledermaus
2. Die Freischutz
3. Die Meistersinger
4. Hansel and Gretel
5. Das Rheingold
6. Salome
7. Capriccio
8. Ariadne Auf Naxos
9. Die Frau Ohne Schatten
10. Der Rosenkavalier
What would you have chosen for an INTRODUCTORY class. They
members can primarily to be in Santa Barbara in the winter time, not
necessarily to take an opera class.
joa...@rain.org
: Christopher Rickey (stg...@fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de) wrote:
: : On Mon, 8 May 1995 tha...@netcom17.netcom.com wrote:
: : > Thalia
: : >
: : >
: : I'll second that recommendation.
: NO WAY.....Except if replaced by Elektra or Salome :)
: (Just thought to balance the discussion a little...)
: R
--
ROSENKAVALIER
I think the second act Presentation of the Rose and the Third Act
Final Trio to be the most gorgeous music ever written in opera. I saw a
Production in SFO a few years ago and was involuntarily sobbing at the
crescendo. Absolutely carried away. I ask no more from opera.
Joan, Santa Barbara
James Tappin
Melisande" ranks as one of the most tedious dirges I've ever heard; no
tunes, a plot that doesn't seem to go anywhere and all to often stagings
of the utmost dreariness.
--
+------------------------+------------------------------------+---------+
| James Tappin, | School of Physics & Space Research | O__ |
| s...@star.sr.bham.ac.uk | University of Birmingham | -- \/` |
| Ph: 0121-414-6462. Fax: 0121-414-3722 | |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+---------+
Gene Ward Smith
> In article <3oj6oe$2...@news.rain.org>, joa...@rain.org () writes:
> >same. Die Zauberflote should only be presented as "Magic Flute Lite" in a
> >much abbreviated form.
> the Night Aria, which is still magic for me.
The whole thing is magic--as music. As opera it is less than the music
deserves, and not up there with Don G. (In case you weren't aware, Don
Giovanni is the greatest opera ever written, unless it is Tristan.) It was
what came to mind when people were talking about listening to opera as
concert music--if you do that, this is unquestionably of the very best
operas ever penned.
> > Never figured why so many people like Verdi's "Falstaff". Recently
> >suffered through an intermnible SFO "Herodiae" which wasn't much better than
> >"Les Troyans".
> i have trouble appreciating Falstaff too at this point.
This is going to sound obnoxious, but one thing that Falstaff and the
Magic Flute have in common is that purely as music, they are practically
unbeatable. The music in Falstaff is amazing in its subtlety, when
compared to Verdi's earlier stuff. It also works as opera, IMHO.
Another candidate for being better as music than as opera is Fidelio.
Beethoven's musical mastery is light-years beyond people like Puccini, who
nevertheless had an idea of how to write an *opera*. Or maybe just had a
good librettist...
When I saw these operas, I constantly found myself *listening* to the
music just as music, and a hell of a lot was going on in there.
--
Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/University of Toledo
gsm...@lab1.cc-math.utoledo.edu
Christopher Rickey
On 9 May 1995, g.f. wrote:
> In article <Pine.BSD.3.91.950508...@fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de>,
> Christopher Rickey <stg...@fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm probably only exposing my own limitations, but I cannot
> >> derive much pleasure from DER ROSENKAVALIER. If it disappeared from
> >> the repertoire I wouldn't miss it.
> >> Thalia
> >
> >I'll second that recommendation.
>
> Oh dear, I feel like leaping to the defense of something I love,
> though of course this is all opinion! I realize it's quite an
> acquired taste, but honestly: on stage it's magic! I was in
> heaven all three and a half hours while my friends admittedly
> were squirming at the Houston production :) My vote for overrated
Oh, maybe that's the problem. The production I saw lasted over four hours.
bse...@hulaw1.harvard.edu
> Phil Miller (mil...@sc.hp.com) wrote:
> : joa...@rain.org wrote:
> : : same. Die Zauberflote should only be presented as "Magic Flute Lite" in a
> : : much abbreviated form.
>
>
> : : R. Stauss' "Elektra" can drive them screaming from the hallowed halls.
>
> : I really like Elektra, but I am amazed at its general popularity.
>
>
> : philll
>
>
> --
>
>
> I recently was asked to teach an introductory class called Gems
> of German Opera. I gagged knowing thatI could not avoid including
> something from my dreaded Mozart. Luckily the program was printed with
> the tite "Gems of 19th Century German Opera and I escaped. So since my
> opera tastes seem off base to several of the responders, I am dying to
> get your reactions to my choice for an INTRODUCTORY opera class for
> seniro citizens for Elderhostel. I chose excerpts for a four day(2hrs)
> class as follows: (I know I strecthed the 19th Century a bit with R Stauss)
> 1. Die Fledermaus
> 2. Die Freischutz
Yes
> 3. Die Meistersinger
No
> 4. Hansel and Gretel
Yes
> 5. Das Rheingold
Maybe, carefully introduced
> 6. Salome
Same as 5
> 7. Capriccio
I adore this opera, but it's not intro material
> 8. Ariadne Auf Naxos
Same as 5
> 9. Die Frau Ohne Schatten
> 10. Der Rosenkavalier
Yes, but carefully introduced
Eugenia Horne
David Pickering <dp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.opera: 7-May-95 Re: Most Overrated Opera
[Reformatted...]
>> I wouldn't mind if the Met presented fewer ELISIR D'AMORE and FILLE DU
>> REGGIMENT; and used those casts for DON PASQUALE, TURCO IN ITALIA,
>>SONNAMBULA, COMPTEORY and perhaps even LAKME.
>
>I definitely agree with you about DON PASQUALE. Other Donizetti operas
>I would like to see performed more often are ROBERTO DEVEREUX and ANNA
>BOLENA. SONNAMBULA was reportedly Queen Victoria's favorite opera, both
>it and NORMA seem to have all-but-disappeared from the repertoire since
>Callas died and Sutherland and Sills retired.
I PURITANI shows up in more references by Queen
Victoria as her "dear Puritani" partly because it
was the first opera she and Albert saw together.
(Her voice instructor was Luigi Lablache and taught
her bunches of arias from Puritani and other things.)
Her favourite music has to be Albert's though, especially
the little duet her wrote for her for a "wedding present".
(She was a soprano and Albert was a baritone.)
For opera that someone should revive (even if in concert
version), I vote for something of Duke Ernst II's (Queen
Victoria's brother-in-law). He reportedly wrote five operas
(among them SANTA CHIARI) which were fairly well received,
revived several times in several countries over the next
40 or 50 years and then they just disappeared. Supposedly
they musically "resemble" Donizetti and Bellini, and I have
this sneaking suspicion he may have had an uncredited
collaborator in the musical composition department.
[Hopefully, I spelled everything reasonably closely...]
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Feelings of admiration and even love are not sinful - nor can you
prevent the impulses of one's nature - but it is your duty to avoid
the temptation in every way. - Prince Albert [via Queen Victoria]
joa...@rain.org
Don Giovanni is not "the best opera ever written." It is just that
someone "famous" SAID it was the BOEW. Who made that quote? And why pray
tell is it repeated as if it were indisputible fact. How can there be
just one "best"? And also why should it be considered "the best"? It has
a pathetic theme, repetitive music and trite catharis. So an unappealing
philander gets it in the end.
Granted, occaisonal moments of musical interest and granted even some
brilliance. But definitely no reason to call it the "best".
--
OpBuff
But without Rosenkavalier, opera would not be opera!
TODD DISSINGER
: Don Giovanni is not "the best opera ever written." It is just that
: --
OK, you got us there. Let's rephrase it. DG is the best opera written
BEFORE 1800.
Todd
Eric Dew
> 1. Die Fledermaus
> 2. Die Freischutz
> 3. Die Meistersinger
> 4. Hansel and Gretel
> 5. Das Rheingold
> 6. Salome
> 7. Capriccio
> 8. Ariadne Auf Naxos
>
> What would you have chosen for an INTRODUCTORY class. They
>members can primarily to be in Santa Barbara in the winter time, not
>necessarily to take an opera class.
I might add Martha by Friedrich Von Flotow. Also, Lehar's Das Land des Lacheln.
(The Land of Smiles) is a fun one with some good tunes.
EDEW
Stephen P. Guthrie
>joa...@rain.org wrote:
>
>: Don Giovanni is not "the best opera ever written." It is just that
>: someone "famous" SAID it was the BOEW. Who made that quote? And why pray
Actually quite a few people. Including Wagner and I think George Bernard Shaw?
Also Isak Dinesen (Karen Blixen).
Clifford Ando
I would trade every single piece of garbage (which is essentially
everything) from Rossini, Bellini, and Donizetti, for one more Strauss
opera from the 1910's or, for that matter, for one more Verdi opera
between Othello and Falstaff.
Christopher Rickey
On Mon, 8 May 1995, David Pickering wrote:
> Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.opera: 7-May-95 Re: Most Overrated Opera
> by @rain.org
> > OVER RATED: Anything by Mozart. Most of his works all sound the
> > same. Die Zauberflote should only be presented as "Magic Flute Lite" in a
> > much abbreviated form.
>
> I must strongly disagree. If productions of Mozart have a flaw it's
> that too many directors downplay the comic elements. I personally love
> ZAUBERFLOTE and the Mozart/De Ponte operas.
>
I agree. (A first in this newsgroup?) I saw a production that was
farcical and downright stupid - just like the plot. It was, however,
enjoyable. Directors who would try to make sense of the plot are going
about it the wrong way. This production I saw was so deliberately stupid
it was funny: I have never heard so much laughter in an opera performance
before, including one lady behind me who shrieked like a banshee in delight.
Christopher Rickey
On 10 May 1995 joa...@rain.org wrote:
>
> Don Giovanni is not "the best opera ever written." It is just that
> someone "famous" SAID it was the BOEW. Who made that quote? And why pray
> tell is it repeated as if it were indisputible fact. How can there be
> just one "best"? And also why should it be considered "the best"? It has
> a pathetic theme, repetitive music and trite catharis. So an unappealing
> philander gets it in the end.
>
> Granted, occaisonal moments of musical interest and granted even some
> brilliance. But definitely no reason to call it the "best".
>
Among others, Hegel and Kierkegaard affirmed this choice. Kierkegaard
even made it the centerpiece of the Diary of a Seducer in Either/Or. It
was in a sense THE romantic opera of all time (German romantic; has
little to do with love).
bse...@hulaw1.harvard.edu
some good points to make on questions of aesthetics.
What is "Best" and why is it so? These are good questions. For me,
Don Giovanni falls in a "best" category, but it certainly is hard to say one
opera is THE BEST. DG falls, for me, in a group that includes "Otello" and
"Tristan & Isolde" as "bests", for instance. Others will say "Marriage of Figaro",
"Falstaff", and "Meistersing" -- good choices, but not mine. To bash those of
us who don't like a certain Mozart or Verdi opera, or even Mozart and Verdi at
all, is simply descending to unpleasantness. Discussion is fine, invective is
not.
Ben
George Silberstern
: Just for the heck of it, are there any operas out there that have been on
: the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
: dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
: that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the stage?
My "short" list includes Traviatta, Boheme, Aida, Forza, Rigoletto,
Fledermaus, Barbiere di Siviglia, Contes d'Hoffman, 99% of all Mozart,
just to name a few.
Would like to see things like Russalka, Cert a Kaca, Tsar's Bride, Zaza,
Viaggio A Reims, Mose in Eggito, Tiefland, Tote Stadt, Postillon du
Lonjumeau, Lakme, Donna del Lago, Anna Bolena, Caterina Coronaro, again to
name a few. Some of the Haydn operas would be nice too!
Personally, another MET fixture much in need of a (permanent) vacation:
General LeCrime (I mean, James Levine).
Different matter: Anyone who also looks at Fidonet, there is now a
CLASSICAL MUSIC echo there, and on the backbone. Ask your local Fidonet
member System Operator to request it! Lots of interesting chatter...
Panther
Phil Miller writes:
>to be some of the most sublime music anywhere. Especially great
>is the guy who sings the head Mason part in the 1937 Beecham recording
>(and it's got better sound than one would think).
A treasure, indeed. The British did an excellent job of recording in
the late 30's. They have continued quite continuously. The American
Victor people [especially] should have been forced to go over there
and study for a few years before attempting any actual recording.
Sheez, and we invented the thing.
Robert R Brock
: : : same. Die Zauberflote should only be presented as "Magic Flute Lite" in a
: : : much abbreviated form.
: : And then there are those of us to whom Mozart *is* opera.
: : : R. Stauss' "Elektra" can drive them screaming from the hallowed halls.
: : I really like Elektra, but I am amazed at its general popularity.
: : philll
: --
: I recently was asked to teach an introductory class called Gems
: of German Opera. I gagged knowing thatI could not avoid including
: something from my dreaded Mozart. Luckily the program was printed with
: the tite "Gems of 19th Century German Opera and I escaped. So since my
: opera tastes seem off base to several of the responders, I am dying to
: get your reactions to my choice for an INTRODUCTORY opera class for
: seniro citizens for Elderhostel. I chose excerpts for a four day(2hrs)
: class as follows: (I know I strecthed the 19th Century a bit with R Stauss)
: 1. Die Fledermaus
: 2. Die Freischutz
: 3. Die Meistersinger
: 4. Hansel and Gretel
: 5. Das Rheingold
: 6. Salome
: 7. Capriccio
: 8. Ariadne Auf Naxos
: 9. Die Frau Ohne Schatten
: 10. Der Rosenkavalier
: What would you have chosen for an INTRODUCTORY class. They
: members can primarily to be in Santa Barbara in the winter time, not
: necessarily to take an opera class.
If THAT list doesn't kill the pour buggers, they are good for another
fifty years!
Bob
Peter Bengtson
Elektra. It is Strauss's most experimental work, tonally he
goes further in it than in any other of his works, it had a
great impact in its day, and it's still a powerful dramatic
experience. So I'd talk about Elektra instead of Salome!
Peter
Stephan Petersen
In article <3osdpq$3...@Radon.Stanford.EDU>,
s...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU writes:
> In article <3orqcn$p...@ralph.vnet.net>, TODD DISSINGER <to...@vnet.net>
> >wrote: joa...@rain.org wrote:
> >
> >: Don Giovanni is not "the best opera ever written." It is just that
> >: someone "famous" SAID it was the BOEW. Who made that quote? And why
> >pray
>
> Actually quite a few people. Including Wagner and I think George Bernard
> Shaw? Also Isak Dinesen (Karen Blixen).
I know of Goethe, E.T.A. Hoffmann, Kierkegaard, and Brecht.
All the best,
Stephan
--
Stephan Petersen s.pet...@sushi.tng.oche.de
I can't give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.
-- The Wizard of Oz
Gene Ward Smith
> Don Giovanni is not "the best opera ever written." It is just that
> someone "famous" SAID it was the BOEW.
I make up my own mind. I don't rely on some unnamed person to tell me
what to think, and it is rude as well as quite false to suggest otherwise.
Since you have opened the hostilities, I will merely point out that you
don't like Don Giovanni because it requires a more sophisticated ear than
you evidently now possess. Your limitations give you no grounds for
boasting and are *not*, as you seem to imagine, evidence of your
independence of thought.
> Who made that quote? And why pray tell is it repeated as if it were
> indisputible fact.
I didn't *repeat* it. It is a conclusion I came to when I saw a
production of it, and I did not assign to it a lonely place on Mount
Olympus in any case.
> How can there be just one "best"?
I actually gave two candidates for "best". And sometimes "best" happens.
I think Beethoven without question or serious competition wrote the best
symphony ever written, for instance.
Admittedly, my list of best was shortened for the purpose of producing an
epigrammatic witticism. It may have lacked soul but at least it possessed
brevity.
> Granted, occaisonal moments of musical interest and granted even some
> brilliance. But definitely no reason to call it the "best".
So presumably, despite your complaints about the assigning of merit, you
could produce a list of things you think better.
DEBORAH BROWNE
stopped. However, truth to tell, I am not yet a Richard Strauss
fan so please know I am ready to be convinced someday.Cheers---Debbie Browne
Christopher Rickey
On 12 May 1995 bse...@hulaw1.harvard.edu wrote:
> If Mr. Rickey could be a little calmer about his position, he does have
> some good points to make on questions of aesthetics.
> What is "Best" and why is it so? These are good questions. For me,
> Don Giovanni falls in a "best" category, but it certainly is hard to say one
> opera is THE BEST. DG falls, for me, in a group that includes "Otello" and
> "Tristan & Isolde" as "bests", for instance. Others will say "Marriage of Figaro",
> "Falstaff", and "Meistersing" -- good choices, but not mine. To bash those of
> us who don't like a certain Mozart or Verdi opera, or even Mozart and Verdi at
> all, is simply descending to unpleasantness. Discussion is fine, invective is
> not.
>
> Ben
>
> >
> > Among others, Hegel and Kierkegaard affirmed this choice. Kierkegaard
> > even made it the centerpiece of the Diary of a Seducer in Either/Or. It
> > was in a sense THE romantic opera of all time (German romantic; has
> > little to do with love).
Excuse me? Invective? Against what? Someone asked who thought Don
Giovanni was one of the best and I stated that two well-known
philosophers thought that it was THE opera. I assumed no position on
this. The second part was merely to ward off any misunderstanding that
by romantic these philosophers were talking about love, which is how we
commonly understand the word romantic today.
Perhaps the misunderstanding is that the thoughts of the person to whom I
was responding were attributed to me. Whatever good asthetic points were
made weren't mine.
joa...@rain.org
: I would get rid of Fille and Elisir.
: But without Rosenkavalier, opera would not be opera!
--
I agree. The most sublime moment in all of opera is the final act trio
in Rosenkavalier - "Marie Terese", and second must be the second act
Presentation of the Rose duet. I get chills just writing about this and
remembering it. The rest of Rosenkavalier granted can get a bit tiresome,
especially the first act, but those two scenes are worth it all, the most
gorgeous ending ever in opera.
The real treat for R. Strauss fans is to explore his lieder and
especially Four Last Songs. Absolutely moving beyond all belief. I have
a special provision in my estate plan to have a R. Strauss Lieder
Memorial Concert when I go. Can't think of a better way to be sent off.
I just hope I am not done in prematurely by a crazed Mozart junkie.
joa...@rain.org
: : I recently was asked to teach an introductory class called Gems : :
of German Opera. I gagged knowing thatI could not avoid including : :
something from my dreaded Mozart. Luckily the program was printed with :
: the tite "Gems of 19th Century German Opera and I escaped. So since my
: : opera tastes seem off base to several of the responders, I am dying to
: : get your reactions to my choice for an INTRODUCTORY opera class for :
: seniro citizens for Elderhostel. I chose excerpts for a four day(2hrs)
: : class as follows: (I know I strecthed the 19th Century a bit with R
Stauss) : : 1. Die Fledermaus : : 2. Die Freischutz : : 3. Die
Meistersinger : : 4. Hansel and Gretel : : 5. Das Rheingold : : 6. Salome
: : 7. Capriccio : : 8. Ariadne Auf Naxos : : 9. Die Frau Ohne Schatten :
: 10. Der Rosenkavalier
: : What would you have chosen for an INTRODUCTORY class. They
: : members can primarily to be in Santa Barbara in the winter time, not
: : necessarily to take an opera class.
: If THAT list doesn't kill the pour buggers, they are good for another
: fifty years!
: Bob
--
Great reply LOL :-) :-)
Please Bob, there were carefully culled SELECTIONS from the above:
1. Salome's Dance
2. Moonlight scene and final question from Capriccio
3. Zerbinetta's aria from Ariade
4. The unborn children from Frau
5. Wolf's Glen from Freischutz
6. Waltz sequences from Fledermaus
7. Witch's house death from Hansel and Gretal
Plus I used the Anna Russell introduction to Das Rheingold.
Now the poor buggers really do have something to live for, for the next
fifty years! The glories of German Opera. Congratualte me. I think I
picked the best from the best.
Joan, Santa Barbara
joa...@rain.org
: Met this season with Kiri. Everytime we thought a melody was starting it
: stopped. However, truth to tell, I am not yet a Richard Strauss
: fan so please know I am ready to be convinced someday.Cheers---Debbie Browne
--
To become a fan of R. Stauss you may want to try his orchestral works
first and especially the Rosenkavalier Suite. Then try Don Quixote, Til
Eulenspiel, Also Sprach Zarathusta, etc. You will see his musical
brilliance. Then try Highlights from Rosenkavalier and see if you are
not moved by the final act "Marie Terese" trio and then the second act duet
"Presentation of the Rose" scene.
A lot of R. Strauss is tiresome but the gems are well, well worth
the wait. Sheer brilliance in opera, it doesn't get any better. His our
Last Songs and other lieder is absolutely gorgeous when the mood is
right. Good luck, you have a life time to get to know him. Don't miss him.
Dan Ford
I don't want to sound ungrateful for your effort (I am 63) but I think
the best thing you could do for your seniors is turn the class over to
someone else. Indeed, if this is really an introductory course, perhaps
the title should be changed so as to include that other country to the
south of the Alps :)
- Dan
dan....@unh.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pubpages.unh.edu/~df
joa...@rain.org
<3olppi$6...@hpscit.sc.hp.com> <3opdkr$e...@news.rain.org>
<3p1a14$8...@umt.umt.edu>
<Pine.OSF.3.91a.95051...@hopper.unh.edu>
Organization: RAIN Public Access Internet (805) 967-RAIN
Distribution:
GEMS OF 19TH CENTURY GERMAN OPERA
Dan, I was disappointed too. I had an Italian intro class all prepared
but the program was printed "Gems of 19th Century German Opera" and some
people came especially to get introduced to German Opera, some came
because there was a course on American Film and some came because it was
Santa Barbara in the winter.
So the challenge was what would you pick if you were faced with
that for a title?
Dan Ford (d...@hopper.unh.edu) wrote:
: I don't want to sound ungrateful for your effort (I am 63) but I think
: - Dan
--
BGNewhouse
>the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
>dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
>that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the
stage?
Speaking entirely in terms of "operas out there that have been on
the MET schedule forever", my choices would be:
1) Cavalleria/Pagliacci
2) Gioconda
3) Andrea Chenier
No flames, please; I certainly don't have anything against Italian opera
in general, and I will admit that Gioconda can be a very effective show in
the right hands. I mention these three because a) none are particularly
distinguished as music (compared to Verdi or Puccini) and b) with the
current shortage of singers (particularly up-and-coming male singers) who
can manage the heavy Italian repertory on a level worthy of the tradition
of the Met, we are going to have to conserve the singers who can do this
repertory properly for the basic Verdi-Puccini repertory (and probably
have to cut back a bit on that).
I would also nominate 4) Elektra; it's a terrific vehicle for the right
ladies, but we don't have the right ladies any more, and frankly I find
the piece a bit pretentious after having lived with it for six months in
college. (And though the piece isn't quite standard rep even in New York,
I can definitely do without Die Frau ohne Schmattes.)
For replacements, I advocate more Rossini, especially with Bartoli and
Larmore both rising; I'm amazed the Met has never done Cenerentola, and
hope for Mose and/or William Tell. Also, it would be nice if Benackova
were to be the spearhead for the Met to plunge into a full-scale Czech
revival (Smetana and Dvorak as well as Janacek).
Brian Newhouse
Msekus
fans.
Joan points out the ending trio as one of the main highlights and the
presentation of the silver rose, but there are so many more awesome
moments. I think that once you fully learn, analyse and appreciate this
opera no part is tedious.
For those of us in "middle age" when the Marshallin says in act one
"Manchmal steh' ich auf mitten in der Nacht und lass' die Uhren alle, alle
steh'n" (Sometimes I rise in the middle of the night and stop all, all the
clocks) speaks volumes to us about how life goes on (by the way the
Marshallin is 29!)
In the third act when the Marchallin pulls Faninal out of his funk and
offers him a ride in her carrige and they are about to leave is another of
those powerful moments. The Marchallin's "Ja, Ja" (maybe the most
difficult line in all of opera because of its pure simplicity) in response
to Fanimal"s "Sind halt also, die jungen Leut" (That's how they are - the
young folk!) hits me like a ton of bricks when it is done well. At this
point I am already weepy eyed, and from here until the Moor picks up
Sophies hankerchief as a memento for the Marchallin and the final notes
flow from the orchestra I am a true mess. I challenge anyone to come up
with a more poingnant moment in opera. There are some that are equal, but
none that surpass!
joa...@rain.org
Chills upon reading it even now. The "jaja" so eloquently described was
added on later in the Lotte Lehman recording as it was forgotton in the
original peicemeal recording and it is sung by her friend and fellow Strauss
interpreter instead.
Joan, Santa Barbara
--
Mitchell Weitz
>Speaking entirely in terms of "operas out there that have been on
>the MET schedule forever", my choices would be:
>1) Cavalleria/Pagliacci
>2) Gioconda
>3) Andrea Chenier
year will be the first in several decades. It's only been in the repertory
once in the past 11 years and that was with a borrowed production.
>hope for Mose and/or William Tell. Also, it would be nice if Benackova
>were to be the spearhead for the Met to plunge into a full-scale Czech
>revival (Smetana and Dvorak as well as Janacek).
>Brian Newhouse
They've been doing quite a few Czech operas in recent years: a revival of
Jenufa, Kat'a Kabanova, Rusalka, and next season The Makropolous Case.
Mitchell Weitz mwe...@pipeline.com
Christopher Spring
> >Just for the heck of it, are there any operas out there that have been on
>
> >the MET schedule forever that you feel are WAY overrated and could be
> >dumped for something that has been neglected or is underated? What operas
>
> >that are in the standard "rep" do you feel need a vacation from the
> stage?
I haven't kept up with this group, so I don't know what road this subject
has taken, but I would nominate Tosca. I know this will make me quite
unpopular with most, but this seems to be one of the most vacuous operas
imaginable. Feel free to tear me down. It is only an opinion.
Christopher Spring
mah...@u.washington.edu
Valmoose
for the longer ones, like Der Rosenkavalier, I have to disagree with your
selection. The third act trio is one of the most wonderful musical
creations of the last hundred years. If done well, and the performance I
saw this year at the Met with Levine, von Otter and Vaness was done very
well, you can be transported to a place where only the greatest composers
can even aspire to. In fact, Strauss himself said it was the best thing he
ever wrote and he was right. Of course, if you've already bailed out
long by then, the third act just seems to compound the misery.
ValMoose
"We don't see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
Anais Nin
Lori Labadie
Well, I'm not going to tear you apart <g>, but I DO disagree about Tosca
being overly done or needing a vacation. Yes, Tosca is a yearly event at
the Met, but it's such an incredible opera with so much depth. It's also
my favorite opera, BTW.
As much as I love Madama Butterfly, I think that one could maybe use a
rest. At *least* for a year.
I really enjoyed Rusalka two years ago and some of the newly staged
operas this season. I hope the Met will continue in that vain.
Lori
James Kahn
>I haven't kept up with this group, so I don't know what road this subject
>has taken, but I would nominate Tosca. I know this will make me quite
>unpopular with most, but this seems to be one of the most vacuous operas
>imaginable. Feel free to tear me down. It is only an opinion.
No flames here, just befuddlement. I know Tosca has its detractors, but
it's always seemed to me to have one of the better opera storylines.
Surely it's better than the "boy meets girl, girl gets consumption and
dies" plot of Boheme and Traviata, for example. And the drama carries
forward better than, say, in Madama Butterfly, where nothing really happens
from the end of Act 1 to the end of the opera. The story is reasonably
tight and dramatic (ok, melodramatic, but this is opera, after all).
So what's wrong with it?
--Jim
--
ka...@troi.cc.rochester.edu |
ka...@finance.wharton.upenn.edu |
Paul Pelkonen
: Though a bad performance of any opera can seem interminable and doubly so
Van Otter is indeed wonderful...especially ont he 1991 Haitink recording on
EMI....beats the hell out of Georg Solti's. Haitink conducts the score with a
lightnessthat is missing from Solti's rendition...good singing but too much
Wagnerian excess. Check this out!
Paul
dring...@gmail.com
Lots of heart balanced with a good dose of comedy. Magic Flute, on the other hand, makes me want to run. Much ado about not enough. A handful of great arias are not enough to sustain the ponderous weight of it.