Nilsson or Flagstad?
fam.ericsson
I'm comparing them in a school-work and I need as many opinions as
possible.
Thank you!
Jonas Ericsson
Matthew B. Tepper
>
> Who do you like better Birgit Nilsson or Kirsten Flagstad?
> I'm comparing them in a school-work and I need as many opinions as
> possible.
Frida Leider!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
And my science fiction club's home page --- http://www.lasfs.org/
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Cfehlandt
>I'm comparing them in a school-work and I need as many opinions as
>possible.
>
>
Sounds like a great school! I prefer Flagstad because of her warmer sound,
though the steelier-sounding Nilsson is mighty impressive and sang some
dramatic Italian roles too. Nilsson is the also loudest voice I ever heard in
person.
CF
G Riggs
> fam.ericsson wrote:
> >
> > Who do you like better Birgit Nilsson or Kirsten Flagstad?
> > I'm comparing them in a school-work and I need as many opinions as
> > possible.
>
> Frida Leider!
I must agree with Mr. Tepper. But, seriously, to appreciate Leider's
staggering qualities, it's instructive to compare Flagstad and Nilsson,
who, in a sense, complement one another.
First, Flagstad, whom I prefer in the end: she has an ample caressing
quality and a line without a hint of "lurches" or "corners." Her
expressiveness, at least on recordings, both "live" and in the studio,
seems somewhat restricted in terms of variety and nuance. She could
respond sensitively as a musician, but moments of subtle irony or
sarcasm or obsession seemed to elude her. This is in contrast with her
apparent effect on stage (I never saw her "live"), where she was capable
of superb command merely as a performer. The interviewer/critic
Lanfranco Rasponi insists Flagstad was one of the most effective
actresses on stage he ever saw. Flagstad's sheer sound was HUGE!
I did see Nilsson on stage, and her recordings come off poorly in
comparison (I imagine this is also the feeling of many of those who saw
Flagstad "live"). There is no question Nilsson's line is not as
seamless as Flagstad's. Her voice, while very powerful, does not come
off as sheerly ample and easy as Flagstad's. It may be just as powerful
in its way, though.
One critic wrote, aptly, that Flagstad's voice surrounded the listener
at the theatre with its all-enveloping warmth, while Nilsson's sound was
like a laser, with a stunning top that many agree is the superior of
Flagstad's in most respects.
Nilsson did not engage the heart of the listener in that wonderfully
warm way Flagstad can, but Nilsson was a greater mistress of highly
varied moods. Her compelling, dangerous, obsessed, wary, neurotic
Elektra (we're talking strictly of what she could communicate *with*
*her* *voice*) may well have been beyond Flagstad's expressive
capacities.
As for Leider, her sheer amplitude of tone may not quite equal F's or
N's, but it boasts a superb strength nevertheless and is controlled with
a sense of line comparable to F's. In addition, Leider's tone has even
more of a human warmth than F's. With that warmth, she was able to
communicate--theatrically and vocally--even more varied moods and
subtleties than Nilsson did. Her top was more flexible than either of
the other two, giving her the ability to conquer roles like Rezia and
Norma, along with the great Wagner heroines. Nilsson too performed some
of the more traditional Italian roles, but without the commanding
agility Leider had.
According to observers at the time, Leider could immerse herself on
stage in the most probing way of all. She apparently communicated a
sense of "being" the role, in all its subtleties and shifts, to a degree
beyond either of the other two. Her command of the stage must have been
overpowering, both in the individuality of each of her characterizations
and in the way she could dwarf almost anyone else on stage. These kinds
of descriptions come up again and again from practically every critic
who saw her; and she could be unrecognizable in role after role, whether
going from Wagner to Verdi, from Verdi to Bellini, from Bellini to
Mozart, whatever. Miraculously, at the same time, what she did was
always musically, stylistically, and dramatically apt.
For me, putting matters of sheer size aside, I find the very timbre of
her voice has an intrinsic beauty to it unmatched by any other soprano's
on disc.
GRiggs
================================================
The Collector's Guide to Opera Recordings and Videos
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023
================================================
wk...@juno.com
"Matthew B. Tepper" <ducky兀deltanet.com> wrote:
> Frida Leider!
Ditto.
(If I have to choose between Flagstad and Nilsson, I pick Flagstad).
Bill
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Richard Wall
I'll try, simply.
Both were magnificent singers with huge dramatic soprano voices. Both were
perfect Wagnerians.
Nilsson ventured out of Wagner to most of the repertory (Aida, Tosca, Salome,
Elektra, Turandot, etc) and Flagstad stayed pretty close to home, though she
sang everything in her young years.
Nilsson was probably a better actress than Flagstad.
Vocally:
Nilsson's voice was like a laser beam, bright and clear and rose above any
orchestra - repeat ANY orchestra. I once heard her in concert at Carnegie
Hall with the New Jersey Symphony, conducted by Henry Lewis. In the Elektra
monologue, the orchestra played way too loudly. Birgit just made one of those
faces of hers and soared out above 100+ loud musicians!!
Flagstad's voice was more Italianate, a little warmer and where Nilsson was a
laser beam, Flagstad's voice filled the proscenium with sound up to the
F-sharp. Above that, the entire sound moved out into the house - and it
remained the size of the proscenium. It was a force of nature unlike any
other. But she was a clump of an actress.
Yes, I heard them both live.
I could go on, but I'll let someone else.
+++++++++++++++
fam.ericsson wrote:
>
> Who do you like better Birgit Nilsson or Kirsten Flagstad?
> I'm comparing them in a school-work and I need as many opinions as
> possible.
>
> Thank you!
> Jonas Ericsson
Matthew B. Tepper
>
> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> > fam.ericsson wrote:
> > >
> > > Who do you like better Birgit Nilsson or Kirsten Flagstad?
> > > I'm comparing them in a school-work and I need as many opinions as
> > > possible.
> >
[excellent essay comparing all three sopranos snipped for space]
I am delighted that my smart-assed response elicited such an evocative
and well-reasoned response as yours. I think you have amply delimned
some of the best features of these three well-loved sopranos, and for
that alone you deserve my thanks. And for those who get annoyed at my
frequently flip remarks, you have proven that something good can come
from them!
dtritter
compared for their virtues, but need not occasion a competition.
dft
[unless you want sweden v. norway jokes...]
Kevin McGowin
> In article <362F74...@deltanet.com>,
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <ducky兀deltanet.com> wrote:
>
> > Frida Leider!
>
> Ditto.
>
> (If I have to choose between Flagstad and Nilsson, I pick Flagstad).
>
> Bill
>
Flagstad. But I'll take Windgassen over Melchior.
Kevin>
MD
a diamond point to the tone. Flagstad was miraculous, with
a wealth of opulent tone, and perfect pitch also, but
I always found her top effortful, and she also did a bit of
scooping, for dramatic effect I'm sure. Nilsson to me is
the zenith of dramatic sopranos. A close second would be
Varnay in her prime, which unfortunately was not long. In
terms of sheer vocal endowment, breadth of repertoire, musical
intelligence, acting ability and amazing consistency over
several decades, Nilsson would earn my vote by a wide
margin. It's difficult to compare Nilsson and Flagstad, because
the instruments were totally different. Flagstad's voice darkened
with age and became rather matronly. Nilsson kept the same voice
throughout her career, keeping her clarion top to the end, although
it was not always in tune as she passed 60. Flagstad sang well into
her middle 60's with almost undiminished quality, though the top
was not available to her after about 1956. 2 great artists in any case.
fam.ericsson wrote:
> Who do you like better Birgit Nilsson or Kirsten Flagstad?
> I'm comparing them in a school-work and I need as many opinions as
> possible.
>
> Thank you!
> Jonas Ericsson
Mike Richter
>
> Who do you like better Birgit Nilsson or Kirsten Flagstad?
> I'm comparing them in a school-work and I need as many opinions as
> possible.
>
sum up my own reaction by saying that Nilsson emphasized the superhuman
qualities, Flagstad, the human in the characters they portrayed.
Therefore, Nilsson excelled in roles that Flagstad did not undertake,
such as Salome, but failed to bring warmth to those they both essayed.
Farrell and Traubel were also mentioned. Traubel had the most womanly
voice of any of the great modern hochdramatisch sopranos. Her tone was
warm and rich, at times more of a Dalila than a Bruennhilde. In a word,
her sound was seductive.
Farrell may have been the greatest technician among them but never
seemed involved in the character. It is as though she was demonstrating
the role, not performing it. However, she excelled in everything from
Bach through Berg with a generosity of voice and art which seem
unmatched.
In conclusion, none was 'the best' over the spectrum of roles they
assumed - and arguments for others (Leider, Bampton, ...) should be
taken seriously. Even though they sang the same roles in many cases,
they sang them very differently and each had something unique to offer.
Mike
mric...@mindspring.com
http://mrichter.simplenet.com
CD-R http://resource.simplenet.com
Joel P. Klein
>You're asking a hard question; it's like comparing ermine and sable!! But
>I'll try, simply.
>
>Both were magnificent singers with huge dramatic soprano voices. Both were
>perfect Wagnerians.
>
>Nilsson ventured out of Wagner to most of the repertory (Aida, Tosca, Salome,
>Elektra, Turandot, etc) and Flagstad stayed pretty close to home, though she
>sang everything in her young years.
>
>Nilsson was probably a better actress than Flagstad.
>
>Vocally:
>
>Nilsson's voice was like a laser beam, bright and clear and rose above any
>orchestra - repeat ANY orchestra. I once heard her in concert at Carnegie
>Hall with the New Jersey Symphony, conducted by Henry Lewis. In the Elektra
>monologue, the orchestra played way too loudly. Birgit just made one of those
>faces of hers and soared out above 100+ loud musicians!!
>
>Flagstad's voice was more Italianate, a little warmer and where Nilsson was a
>laser beam, Flagstad's voice filled the proscenium with sound up to the
>F-sharp. Above that, the entire sound moved out into the house - and it
>remained the size of the proscenium. It was a force of nature unlike any
>other. But she was a clump of an actress.
>
>Yes, I heard them both live.
>
>I could go on, but I'll let someone else.
>+++++++++++++++
A wonderful post! How about adding Traubel and Farrell to the list?
Capa081348
>From: cfeh...@aol.com (Cfehlandt)
>Date: 10/22/98 12:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <19981022151850...@ng23.aol.com>
>
Nilsson is the also loudest voice I ever heard in
>person.
>
Seriously, regarding Nilsson and Flagstad. I view them as the operatic
equivalents of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans respectively. Flagstad's
immense waves of sound, high, yet deep, as predictable and relentless as the
tides. And Nilsson's tempestuous dark sea of her own, with its whirlpools of
sound, its hurricanes, its waterspouts, that surges, and wanes, and crashes
majestically, (and every once in a great while erratically) on the rocks of our
operatic peninsula.
All told, I prefer Nilsson, who always seem to be singing on the edge, to
Flagstad, who seems to be so effortlessly in control. And I'm definitely going
to have dig up more Frida Lieder; I have never seen such testimonials to her
art as I have here today.
Pat Finley
Un Bel Di...
Alrod
an excellent post, but one point needs clearing up.
>[Leider's} top was more flexible than either of
>the other two, giving her the ability to conquer roles like Rezia and
>Norma, along with the great Wagner heroines.
Leider's top was flexible and lovely when present, but became
unreliable relatively early. Flagstad's didn't begin to give out until
about age 50 (after 35 years on the operatic stage) and Nilsson's
never really did - it was other parts of her voice that aged.
There's more than a few Leider recordings where the high notes are cut
off quickly in order not to go bad or avoided completely, and there's
a film clip of her where the top goes spectacularly astray.
That being said, I like all three.
And someone said something about Flagstad's repertoire being more
limited than Nilsson's. That's not really true, as Flagstad sang
everything from Tosca to Fledermaus in the first half of her career,
giving up those roles for a more restricted diet of Wagner, Beethoven
and a few others only when she hit 40.
All three sang a great deal other than Wagner, which is to their
credit, though only Leider made an effort towards new music, such as
(I think) Busoni's Dr. Faust.
Alrod
PANPERSON
>person.
I think that Farrell's voice was even bigger although not as focused. And
Corelli agrees with me!
DAVID MY COFFEE MUG SAYS: HOLD ME, I AM A FERMATA IT MAKES MY DAY
PANPERSON
>Bach through Berg with a generosity of voice and art which seem
>unmatched.
>
>
The most interesting thing about Farrell - besides her voice which was
georgeous - is that she had this inate ability to sing anything and everything
in the style that it should be sung in. And that does not only include Bach
to Berg but everything that was every written. Listen to all that singing she
did on the Gary Moore show (if you are old enough) Her Broadway stuff is
amazing. She could belt out a tune just as well as she could sing Bach or
Berg. A truly American gift to the world of music.
Richard Wall
Martina Arroyo and Jon Vickers. I didn't say "best", I said loudest. I
heard Vickers drown out Nilsson!
PANPERSON wrote:
>
> >Nilsson is the also loudest voice I ever heard in
> >person.
>
> I think that Farrell's voice was even bigger although not as focused. And
> Corelli agrees with me!
Richard Wall
uninvolved with what she was doing, almost as though there were something at
home on the stove she was more concerned about! I saw an ANDREA CHENIER at
the old house where she practically yawned onstage! A glorious voice to be
sure. Do you know her recvording "Arias in the Great Tradition"? Stunning!
dtritter
>
> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 wk...@juno.com wrote:
>
> > In article <362F74...@deltanet.com>,
> >
> > > Frida Leider!
> >
> > Ditto.
> >
> > (If I have to choose between Flagstad and Nilsson, I pick Flagstad).
> >
> > Bill
> >
> Flagstad. But I'll take Windgassen over Melchior.
>
> Kevin>
Did I read this aright? Kevin, I don't think even Windgassen would take
Windgassen over Melchior. [Granted, he was the best we had in a
heldentenor-less era, but pleeeeeease!]
dft
Richard Wall
dtritter wrote:
>
> Kevin McGowin wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 wk...@juno.com wrote:
> >
> > > In article <362F74...@deltanet.com>,
G Riggs
> On 22 Oct 1998 12:27:29 PDT, G Riggs <ehu...@concentric.net> wrote:
> an excellent post, but one point needs clearing up.
>
> >[Leider's} top was more flexible than either of
> >the other two, giving her the ability to conquer roles like Rezia and
> >Norma, along with the great Wagner heroines.
>
> Leider's top was flexible and lovely when present, but became
> unreliable relatively early. Flagstad's didn't begin to give out until
> about age 50 (after 35 years on the operatic stage) and Nilsson's
> never really did - it was other parts of her voice that aged.
>
> There's more than a few Leider recordings where the high notes are cut
> off quickly in order not to go bad or avoided completely, and there's
> a film clip of her where the top goes spectacularly astray.
Granted, but I've always had the impression that these cut off notes of
hers occur at random moments in her discography, unrelated to
chronological decline. For instance, in the late 1920s, in Isolde's
Narrative and Curse and in Brunnhilde's "Ewig war ich," both with Maestro
Leo Blech, some of the highs are sadly truncated. But later, in live
performances from the 1930s at Covent Garden under more galvanizing
conductors like Beecham and Furtwaengler, she's practically chomping at
the bit. The top notes soar and there seems to be ample strength in
reserve. The confrontation scene in Act II of Goetterdaemmerung is a
stern test of one's upper register, yet, at her farewell performance in
1938 under Furtwaengler, she wings her way right through it without a hint
of trouble . She was turning 50 that year.
My hunch is that she kept her top, but she had less psychological
resiliency than F. or N. Since I've always taken a dim view of Blech's
uninspiring leadership anyway, it could be that she was more "in gamba,"
as the Italians say, with a real genius at the podium than with an
efficient "time-beater." I appreciate that Blech was a conscientious
musician, who, in addition, played no small part in building up the superb
Berlin ensemble of the 1920s. But that doesn't seem, to me anyway, to
translate into dynamic leadership at the podium, unfortunately. Leider,
in her autobiography, praises Blech as someone who was always reassuring
and business- like, putting everyone at their ease and very precise and
unruffled -- a maestro one could depend upon at short notice to whip
everything into shape. He apparently soothed her nerves. I'm not sure
these are ideal qualities for real inspiration, however. Others who have
actually been out there performing may be better qualified to judge.
As for the film clip of Leider and Lorenz in the Dawn Duet, she doesn't
even attempt the last "Heil." But I believe this clip comes from a
rehearsal, and Leider usually "marked" when rehearsing anyway. So this
may not be indicative.
Please, does all this strike you as rationalizing? I suppose the acid
test would be any impressions that others may wish to share with us of her
top notes in those final Covent Garden appearances. They come from
1936-38. Have other listeners received contrary impressions of her top in
these performances? It seems quite thrilling to me. (In fact, in her
autobiography, Leider names 1937 as her best year.)
Cordially,
G Riggs
G Riggs
> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 wk...@juno.com wrote:
>
> > In article <362F74...@deltanet.com>,
> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <ducky兀deltanet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Frida Leider!
> >
> > Ditto.
> >
> > (If I have to choose between Flagstad and Nilsson, I pick Flagstad).
> >
> > Bill
> >
> Flagstad. But I'll take Windgassen over Melchior.
Well, I hope you realize this is a minority position ;-) Seriously,
though, I've often wondered whether, in the comparatively fewer Wagner
heroes he performed, Vickers, and not Windgassen, may have been a possible
superior to Melchior.
My own minority opinion?
Mike Richter
>
> I heard Farrell many times, both in concert and at the Met. She was always
> uninvolved with what she was doing, almost as though there were something at
> home on the stove she was more concerned about!
There may well have been. Her technique was so solid that she never
seemed to produce the notes - they were just there. And she was always
clearly quite involved with her family life; I have the impression that
she went to her performances as one goes to one's day job.
Mike
> I saw an ANDREA CHENIER at
> the old house where she practically yawned onstage! A glorious voice to be
> sure. Do you know her recvording "Arias in the Great Tradition"? Stunning!
Richard Wall
forced onto him by highly influential people on the Met board. So she was
never given Bing's famous star treatment, such as he gave Tebaldi, Sutherland,
Price, Corelli, etc. I think this was reflected in Farrell's onstage
demeanor. She didn't feel comfortable in that house. Plus, in the first act
of CHENIER, she was in the biggest white dress I ever saw. She was massive,
and that couldn't have been comfortable for her.
PANPERSON
>of CHENIER, she was in the biggest white dress I ever saw. She was massive,
>and that couldn't have been comfortable for her.
Plus I do believe that somewhere towards the beginning of her entrance she
discusses that her girdle is too tight. I will have to check my score but I
am sure that it is one of the lines.
Richard Wall
ox
warmer tone...RKBB
fam.ericsson <fam.er...@mbox302.swipnet.se> wrote in message
01bdfddd$bc8870a0$14cff482@default...
>Who do you like better Birgit Nilsson or Kirsten Flagstad?
>I'm comparing them in a school-work and I need as many opinions as
>possible.
>
>Jonas Ericsson
GRNDPADAVE
Schwartzkopf: DIDO AND AENEAS. Both singers amplify the beauty of Purcell's
music to a degree I have never experienced apart from their performance.
Flagstad's "When I am laid in earth" is a model of baroque singing.
-
As for Nilsson, I was privileged to see her in BALLO and in ELEKTRA. But I
think of her as the gleaming Brunnhilde, particularly in the Leinsdorf
recording with George London, Jon Vickers and Gre Brouwenstein (sp).
==G/P Dave
GRNDPADAVE
during the brief tenure of Ingemar Johannsen as World's Heavyweight Champion.
-
When Johannsen defeated Floyd Patterson, the Scandinavian Clubs seemed to
reappear under the name "Sons of Sweden".
-
When Patterson regained the crown, the clubs suddenly reverted to "Sons of
Norway",
-
What's the point? Why have an "or" when we are fortunate enough to have an
"and"?
-
Patterson and Johannsen.
Norway and Sweden.
Nilsson and Flagstad.
==G/P Dave
(Yes, I know Patterson wasn't Norwegian, but he was a wonderful boxer).
Thor Even Brenden
I have heard of that DIDO. Could you tell me what label I will find it on?
Your friend
Thor
GRNDPADAVE <grndp...@aol.com> skrev i artikkelen
<19981024081049...@ng15.aol.com>...
Derrick Everett
Thor Even Brenden <thor...@ol.telia.no> wrote in article
<01bdff6f$91c80720$b9e6ccc3@thor>...
> Hi Dave!
> I have heard of that DIDO. Could you tell me what label I will find it
on?
> Your friend
> Thor
>
Reissued on EMI References CDH 7610062. But probably long since gone from
EMI's catalogue, and therefore it might not be easy to find.
Derrick
Derrick Everett
Cfehlandt <cfeh...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981022151850...@ng23.aol.com>...
> >Who do you like better Birgit Nilsson or Kirsten Flagstad?
> >I'm comparing them in a school-work and I need as many opinions as
> >possible.
> >
sound,
> though the steelier-sounding Nilsson is mighty impressive and sang some
> dramatic Italian roles too. Nilsson is the also loudest voice I ever
heard in
> person.
>
Um .... Flagstad sang Desdemona, Amelia (Ballo), Aida, Minnie, Mimi and
Tosca.
Derrick
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sat, Oct 24, 1998 12:56 EDT
>Message-id: <01bdff6f$91c80720$b9e6ccc3@thor>
>
>Hi Dave!
>I have heard of that DIDO. Could you tell me what label I will find it on?
>Your friend
>Thor
Dear Thor,
That recording I have seen only on LP. It was issued by HMV (England) an
affiliate of RCA Victor. It was a single LP -- about 49 minutes. This is one
of the most vital operas ever written. It is full of lusty tunes and has a
greater feel for Dido's tragedy than is conveyed by Berlioz immense opera. But
I love the Berlioz work very much -- especially the interpolation from "The
Merchant of Venice".
The Flagstad voice never whitened. There was always a kind of pink blossom in
the sound. And it was a plushly feminine voice. nilsson, by contrast, is an
Amazon. And I strongly recommend her Minnie in FANCIULLA DEL WEST -- she
doesn't merely hit a note, she splits it like a William Tell-directed arrow.
I also love her Donna Anna in the Leinsdorf recording of DON GIOVANNI.
All the best,
Dave
Matthew B. Tepper
pondered what I'm pondering as follows:
>
>Um .... Flagstad sang Desdemona, Amelia (Ballo), Aida, Minnie, Mimi
>and Tosca.
And Michal in Carl Nielsen's _Saul og David_.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
And my science fiction club's home page --- http://www.lasfs.org/
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
PANPERSON
>Listen, you couldn't see the sofa she was sitting on! (That's how big.)
>
>
The same could be said for Pavarotti. But his profession was being an opera
singer while hers was to be a housewife who occassionally sang an opera or two.
Makes a big difference.
There have been a number of "large" singers who really looked stupid because of
their size but could sing really good. Tetrazzini was immense. Caballe
was laughed at at her American debut until she sang Come Bello. Callas was
not so small at the beginning of her career. Marilyn Horne does not shop in
the petite department.
But none the less this is a list of great singers. Still sometimes I would
rather listen to them than watch them on stage.
Ivrys88
civilized exchange of ideas. Thanks to you all. :-)
Quite a contrast to the "Domingo yes, Domingo no" squabbling that we've seen
entirely too much of lately, IMO...
Mark D. Lew
(PANPERSON) wrote:
> Plus I do believe that somewhere towards the beginning of her entrance she
> discusses that her girdle is too tight. I will have to check my score
but I
> am sure that it is one of the lines.
Maddalena says:
>Soffoco, moro tutta chiusa in busto stretto
>a squame ombra di moro o in un corsetto, come s'usa
>in seta di nakara!
I'll leave it to someone else to write a proper translation, if that's even
necessary, but the gist of it is, "This corset is too tight, it's killing
me".
mdl
drak...@aol.com
effort and so could sing long, taxing parts such as Isolde. To my ears, the
Flagstad voice is more beautiful. Birgit's voice seems a bit cold and
colorless to me. I heard her once, in Tosca with Franco Corelli.
In article <01bdfddd$bc8870a0$14cff482@default>,
"fam.ericsson" <fam.er...@mbox302.swipnet.se> wrote:
> Who do you like better Birgit Nilsson or Kirsten Flagstad?
> I'm comparing them in a school-work and I need as many opinions as
> possible.
>
> Thank you!
> Jonas Ericsson
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
drak...@aol.com
with. He implies that he was very intimidated by her high notes, especially
high C. Of course he might have said the same about Farrell as well.
Judging from live recordings I have heard, no one could outsing Corelli in
the upper register up to high C. I also heard him with Nilsson in Tosca at
the Met and do not believe that he was overshadowed in the least. And
Tebaldi didn't have a tiny voice, either.
In article <19981023024047...@ng105.aol.com>,
panp...@aol.com (PANPERSON) wrote:
> >Nilsson is the also loudest voice I ever heard in
> >person.
>
> I think that Farrell's voice was even bigger although not as focused. And
> Corelli agrees with me!
> DAVID MY COFFEE MUG SAYS: HOLD ME, I AM A FERMATA IT MAKES MY DAY
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Matthew B. Tepper
>
> OK, let's say that on stage we have the biggest voiced sopranos of the
> 60's thru the 80's: Nilsson, Crespin, Rysanek, Farrell, G. Jones, E.
> Marton, Dimitrova (did I omit any). They all sing simultaneously, in
> unison, a scale leading to top Bb. Who(m) would you hear above the
> others; or if not exactly drowning out the others, who(m) would you be
> able to identify?
Eva Turner!
james jorden
> Renata Tebaldi
You know, a coach friend of mine who heard these ladies frequently in
the theater would agree with you -- though he notes that Nilsson's voice
was so brilliantly focused that it *carried* better than Tebaldi's
through a full orchestration. But the sound of Tebaldi's voice (around
G, A-flat, A especially) was far fuller and more enveloping than
Nilsson's. He also notes Regine Crepsin at her best, which,
unfortunately, was not very frequently by the time he started attending
the Met (1969).
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
latest opera gossip from parterre box:
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre/lacieca.htm
Mike Richter
Fortissimo, perhaps Farrell. The others are not in that league (Crespin
might win a third lower, though).
Which brings the point: though the foritssimo is louder in some ways, a
mezza voce can carry over it all if it is properly produced. I first
heard Nilsson in Aida. In Act I, with the Met orchestra and chorus and a
few reasonably capable singers in full cry (Gorr, Thomas - that sort),
she hung an A natural over the crowd in such a way that all of them were
obviously mere accompaniment to the note.
Mike
donpaolo wrote:
>
> The subject of this thread motivated me to bring out a thought that I have
> long pondered as to "most powerful".
>
> OK, let;s say that on stage we have the biggest voiced sopranos of the 60's
> thru the 80's: Nilsson, Crespin, Rysanek, Farrell, G. Jones, E. Marton,
> Dimitrova (did I omit any). They all sing simultaneously, in unison, a
> scale leading to top Bb. Who(m) would you hear above the others; or if
> not exactly drowning out the others, who(m) would you be able to identify
>
> Yeah, I know it's nutty, but, what the Hell?
>
> After we decide on this "winner", we can do it with regard to tenors &
> baritones.
>
> Regards,
>
> DonP.
--
donpaolo
Ed Rosen
<ducky兀deltanet.com> writes:
>donpaolo wrote:
>>
>> OK, let's say that on stage we have the biggest voiced sopranos of
the
>> 60's thru the 80's: Nilsson, Crespin, Rysanek, Farrell, G. Jones, E.
>> Marton, Dimitrova (did I omit any). They all sing simultaneously,
in
>> unison, a scale leading to top Bb. Who(m) would you hear above the
>> others; or if not exactly drowning out the others, who(m) would you
be
>> able to identify?
>
>Eva Turner!
Renata Tebaldi
Ed
Alrod
>The subject of this thread motivated me to bring out a thought that I have
>long pondered as to "most powerful".
>
>OK, let;s say that on stage we have the biggest voiced sopranos of the 60's
>thru the 80's: Nilsson, Crespin, Rysanek, Farrell, G. Jones, E. Marton,
>Dimitrova (did I omit any). They all sing simultaneously, in unison, a
>scale leading to top Bb. Who(m) would you hear above the others; or if
>not exactly drowning out the others, who(m) would you be able to identify
>
>Yeah, I know it's nutty, but, what the Hell?
You left out Angeles Gulin. I suspect she was quite a bit louder than
Marton.
But you'd have no trouble identifying Nilsson.
Alrod
Emma Alban
"projection". Nilsson had both; a brilliant cutting edge especially at the top
but a lot of weight behind the tone. However a "rich" or "thick" voice may not
ring out in a big theater and can sound rather small -- Horne did, though I
don't believe it was a small voice in her prime. On the other hand the young
Kathleen Battle had a real "ping" that cut through the masses of the Mahler
8th, for example, and literally shone all around the Met (I'm thinking
especially of Sophie in Werther where she was singing beside the past her best
but still very loud Crespin, and Krauss who had a bright point on the tone.
Bjorling had that sort of projection -- his voice came right to your ear, not
massive but gorgeous.).
All of the ladies mentioned had very big voices and on a given night in
particular space all might have cut through the others. Marton had an immense
sound with thrilling bounce in her best years (the opening night Ortrud with
Domingo was pretty incredible, so was her Empress. I have an in house tape
which captures just how massive, thrusting and easy the voice was over a wide
range). Rysanek had immense high notes though the middle of her voice was
generally not in focus and she had some years where her tone thinned out.
Dimitrova had, IMO, a "massive" tone which did not always have as much impact
as one might have expected. She shook the walls when I heard her in Parma and
Dallas for example, but as I heard it, her tone was huge but not satisfying
somehow at the Met. Farrell also had massiveness in the middle and lower
parts of her voice and a gorgeous color, but either screamed the top or pulled
back and sang lightly. I loved her, though she lost volume and security
rapidly after 1965; and there were many who were unsatisfied with her,
especially in Italian roles where neither timbre nor temperament were "right"
and she was unlikely (or unable) to "cut loose" in the big soaring moments.
But in concert she could and did (I remember a first act Walkuere with
Bernstein as well as an Ariadne where there was a shining abundance. Her first
appearance on the met stage, a gala where she sang Ozean du Ungeheurer, with
stunning optional high C was staggering. That night Rysanek's high B's in
"meinen Lippen sie Kuessen so Heiss' could be heard in some other galaxy. I
think Farrell is well captured on the Testament CD even if the mike is a little
close.)
The biggest voice I ever heard live was Crespin from 1961-69. The tone was
huge, shining, enveloping and seamless until the B flat. And on a good night
she could fling that and the B natural out with real immensity. I'll never
forget her sound bouncing all over the house as Brunnhilde in the 2 Karajan
Walkueres she was vouchsafed at the met. Those I trust thought the rolling
richness, size and color of this voice, spinning hugely on an orchestra,
closest to the effect of Flagstad.
Tebaldi and Stella both had some of that quality on their good nights and so
did Milanov who was capable of screaming a lot by the time I heard her, but
once sang a Desdemona on tour where from first to last her sound was a huge
shaft of light. One thing no one has talked about it the size of softness --
Crespin, Tebaldi and Milanov had HUGE pianissimi, effortlessly delivered. When
a sound like that fills a big space an audience gasps -- as I heard them do
with those three singers. Caballe also had a lot of volume but could not pour
it out all evening (so act three of her Aida was always a disaster as far as I
can tell, I saw 2 at the Met and 2 at La Scala). But she had a very large
pianissimo, especially in the unrefurbished Carneigie but on a good night in
the new Met too.
For my taste Gulin, though a force of nature was always too much the belter --
her tone was not rock steady and she tended to fly out of tune, giving her
singing an aggressive rather than a thrilling force. Marton became that kind
of singer, IMO. Jones too, though possessed of a spectacular endowment with
everything -- caliber, size, color, range -- was never sufficiently in control
of her voice to make the effect of these others. The voice teacher's cliche,
"big voices have big problems" tended to apply to all but Nilsson in my
experience, but ironically, Nilsson had not the abundant radiant beauty of tone
in the very middle of her voice that Crespin, Tebaldi, the younger Stella all
had.
By the way, if someone mentioned Gulin, someone should also mention Ingrid
Bjorner who had a huge, unreliable voice. And Marion Lippert who sounded
amazing for exactly twelve months then came back to the Met and was booed
loudly. Or Shroeder-Finen. who had a magnificent voice which lasted only about
four years, or for that matter the much more consistent and often wonderful and
always over looked Rita Hunter. That was a very big voice and on the nights
she could keep it steady and focused, very beautiful.
Emma Albani
Ed Rosen
Farrell was loud when she opened up, but she rarely really opened up
and let it rip.
Her voice was so big over all, that even when she almost seemed like
marking- during a performance- it was still easy to hear her.
My big problem with her was that she seemed to "save" her voice all
evening long. It's one thing to save for a big last act, but in
Gioconda, she saved all evening long, especially in the last act. Many
of us jokingly said that she was saving for Act 5!
A couple of days ago I was listening to the CD release on the Grand
Tier label of the '62 Gioconda broadcast with Farrell, Corelli,
Merrill, Rankin, Tozzi. Farrell saves almost the entire afternoon.
Only on a very few occasions does she really seem to open up.
The stars of this performance, for me, are Corelli and Merrill. The
big duet with these two voices is overwhelmingly thrilling. What a
match!
Corelli didn't do too many Enzos in the old Met, but this one was one
for all time. And if you think Merrill wasn't involved, well, here he
is involved as can be, with a wonderful snarl to go along with his
gorgeous voice.
Farrell, in the title role, really takes a back seat to these two
greats.
Best,
Ed
Emma Alban
Hunter.<
I meant of course, her SINGING was often overlooked. I doubt anyone ever under
any circumstances over looked HER.
Emma
Ed Rosen
, a gala where she sang Ozean du Ungeheurer, with
>stunning optional high C was staggering. That night Rysanek's high
B's in
>"meinen Lippen sie Kuessen so Heiss' could be heard in some other g
I attended this same gala, and I remember the date. It was Dec. 14,
1960. I remember it because it was the eve of my birthday.
Among other things, that evening presented the final appearance ever on
the Met stage of Lily Pons. She sang Caro nome, and it was the only
time I ever saw her. I was surprised by the ease with which her voice
really filled the theater. She must have really been something 25
years earlier!
Farrell's "Ocean, thy mighty monster" was thrilling, and huge. I never
heard her sing like that again. I saw her many times in Italian
operas- Chenier, Forza, Cavalleria, Gioconda- and, as I said in an
earlier post- she always sounded as though she was saving her voice.
You could certainly hear her, but it was not exciting.
And Rysanek in this gala- I have never heard anyone with such soaring
top notes as she had in the Giuditta selection. She got a tremendous
ovation, I recall.
And for me, the highlight of the gala was the complete Act 2 of
Butterfly with Tebaldi. She was in incredible voice, and sang in a way
that I will never forget. Size wise, her voice was as big if not
bigger than any soprano who sang before her that evening. I will never
forget the attack on the A#- "Abramo Lincoln" when she sights the ship.
It was spine-tingling, and perhaps the biggest, most beautiful high
note I have ever heard from any soprano any time.
She gave so much in that act. Maybe it was due partly to the fact that
she didn't have the other two acts to sing, I don't know. But I do
know that for those 45 minutes or so, Renata Tebaldi was the greatest
soprano that ever lived.
Best,
Ed
Richard Wall
>
> The subject of this thread motivated me to bring out a thought that I have
> long pondered as to "most powerful".
>
> OK, let;s say that on stage we have the biggest voiced sopranos of the 60's
> thru the 80's: Nilsson, Crespin, Rysanek, Farrell, G. Jones, E. Marton,
> Dimitrova (did I omit any).
Yes. Tebaldi, Arroyo.
Joe
In article <71394b$o...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, lyr...@ix.netcom.com(Ed
Rosen) wrote:
> In <363524...@deltanet.com> "Matthew B. Tepper"
> <ducky兀deltanet.com> writes:
> >
> >donpaolo wrote:
> >>
> >> OK, let's say that on stage we have the biggest voiced sopranos of
> the
> >> 60's thru the 80's: Nilsson, Crespin, Rysanek, Farrell, G. Jones, E.
>
> >> Marton, Dimitrova (did I omit any). They all sing simultaneously,
> in
> >> unison, a scale leading to top Bb. Who(m) would you hear above the
>
> >> others; or if not exactly drowning out the others, who(m) would you
> be
dtritter
the great story came where pons and milanov shared a dressing room that
night, and dainty lily, coy as always, remarked to milanov that
"tonight, zinka, they get a little of the old and a little of the new,"
to which the not-too-coy milanov retorted, "yaz, and dey're makink deir
choices."
glad to be reminded as well of the fabulous leonie singing "meine lippen
sie kussen so heiss," and waltzing about the stage in the orchestral
interlude...the house went nuts.
as to the main course of this thread, some nominees don't even make the
cut on this list for sheer power. i think that nilsson farrell and
crespin leave the others in their wake in this respect, and while bowing
to no one in admiration of the latter two, all i can think of is nilsson
in italian (sic) repertoire: at the end of turandot act 2, with corelli,
massed chorus and forte orchestra under stokie, and all you could hear
was nilsson and the shaking of the walls of the house ... likewise at
the end of aida act 2. and, god! i'm tired of those who admire her power
but denigrate the beauty of the voice; these ears have heard a few
thousand sopranos, and for beauty qua beauty, nilsson remains in my top
two dozen of any repertoire.
but need we pit raphael against botticelli? this ain't no competition,
friends. i guess you can measure decibels, but even that doesn't say
what is the work performed, the theater, the conductor and orchestra,
the time within the career...
one thing that is not at work here, and that is the recorded product,
which has never been a factor in measuring size or a number of other
vocal characteristics. i cannot count the times that i have heard a
given singer on disc, with great pleasure, only later to hear him/her
live and be compelled to curse the engineer who helped perpetrate a
fraud against all of us.
dft
donpaolo
Ed Rosen <lyr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<713gea$d...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>...
<<snip snip>>
But I do
> know that for those 45 minutes or so, Renata Tebaldi was the greatest
> soprano that ever lived.
Wow - how did I ever miss that oneI was living in NY at the time, too.
For many of us Ed, she was indeed the greatest soprano that ever lived,
taking the career in its totality.
Regards,
DonP.
Ed Rosen
writes:
full justice. Her limpid tones filled the space between stage and
audience as if by magic. So gorgeous, so special. There will never be
another Renata Tebaldi.
Best,
Ed
Ian Graham
<donp...@erols.com> writes
>OK, let;s say that on stage we have the biggest voiced sopranos of the 60's
>thru the 80's: Nilsson, Crespin, Rysanek, Farrell, G. Jones, E. Marton,
>Dimitrova (did I omit any). They all sing simultaneously, in unison, a
>scale leading to top Bb. Who(m) would you hear above the others; or if
>not exactly drowning out the others, who(m) would you be able to identify
Forgive me for appearing an English chauvinist but the soprano with the
biggest, most opulent voice I have ever heard was Rita Hunter.
IG
--
Ian Graham mailto:i...@robinsg.demon.co.uk
xroybar...@juno.com
<i...@robinsg.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Forgive me for appearing an English chauvinist but the soprano with the
>biggest, most opulent voice I have ever heard was Rita Hunter.
Hunter was good but never got out of Nilsson's shadow. And she was a
lot better than Amy Shuard!
Roy
Ed Rosen
writes:
Honestly, I always thought Hunter sounded like a giant bumble bee!!
Ed
Ian Graham
xroybar...@juno.com writes
>On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:27:32 +0000, Ian Graham
><i...@robinsg.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Forgive me for appearing an English chauvinist but the soprano with the
>>biggest, most opulent voice I have ever heard was Rita Hunter.
>
>Hunter was good but never got out of Nilsson's shadow. And she was a
>lot better than Amy Shuard!
>
other singers she needed a really good mentor to give her some
direction. Also I believe she suffered from the difficulty of appearing
rather lazy, cancelling performances and missing rehearsals. Her
autobiography is full of whinges about how badly and unfairly she had
been treated by conductors and managements.
She can be heard at her best on the ENO Goodall Ring Cycle. I can still
recall her Gotterdammerung Brunnhilde which was sung with appparently
effortless power: a magnificent piece of singing.
Shahrdad
sound huge, but in different ways. Nilsson's voice has a concentrated force
that projects forward with an amazing force, almost like a powerful laser
beam. Farrell's voice isn't as concentrated, but it pours forth in a lush,
more opulent flood of tone, the way I imagine Flagstad's voice must have. I
think of Nilsson's voice as a powerful stream of water from a fire-hose,
whereas Farrell's sounds like deep, wide river of sound.
S.
cef...@hotmail.com
> A couple of days ago I was listening to the CD release on the Grand
> Tier label of the '62 Gioconda broadcast with Farrell, Corelli,
> Merrill, Rankin, Tozzi. Farrell saves almost the entire afternoon.
> Only on a very few occasions does she really seem to open up.
>
> The stars of this performance, for me, are Corelli and Merrill. The
> big duet with these two voices is overwhelmingly thrilling. What a
> match!
>
> Corelli didn't do too many Enzos in the old Met, but this one was one
> for all time. And if you think Merrill wasn't involved, well, here he
> is involved as can be, with a wonderful snarl to go along with his
> gorgeous voice.
>
> Farrell, in the title role, really takes a back seat to these two
> greats.
>
> Best,
> Ed
>
I've always wondered about this performance ever since I saw it in a CD store
in London (stupid me, I didn't pick it up -- it was either buy the Gioconda
or have dinner. I should've skipped dinner). Now of course I can't find it
anywhere. That being the case, I wonder if it's worth pestering my friends
travelling abroad to pick it up OR should I settle for the (supposedly)
forthcoming Gioconda with Suliotis and Tucker. I know it's like comparing
apples to oranges, but you get my drift. I also notice a Forza with Corelli
and Price from the Met while I was in Madrid. Again, I foolishly let it
pass. Should I try to regain it? I know, I know, from now on if I see it,
I'm getting it. Thanks.
peter miele
wash, d.c.
cef...@hotmail.com
Umm...excuse me, I have sudden urge to go to the bathroom.