HARDEST COLORATURA ARIA IN YOUR OPINION!
G Riggs
I have a facination with coloratura rep. and am very into the art of the highThere may not be any single aria that is the absolute hardest, and what is difficult for one singer may be less difficult for another. But among the top half dozen have to be:
coloratura soprano (even though I am a tenor.)
I was just wondering what you guys/girls thought was the hardest coloratura
aria out there. I would find your replies very interesting. Thanks. If you
could give name of aria and composer.
1) Queen Elisabetta's "Ah ritorna qual ti spera" from Act I of Donizetti's
Roberto Devereux
2) the Cabaletta to Anna Belena's mad scene - "Coppia iniqua"
3) "Salgo gia", Abigaille's cabaletta from Act II of Nabucco.
G Riggs
==================================================
The Collector's Guide to Opera Recordings and Videos
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023
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Mike Richter
difficult. In the abstract, I suspect that all are difficult.
NoiZe24 wrote:
>
> I have a facination with coloratura rep. and am very into the art of the high
> coloratura soprano (even though I am a tenor.)
> I was just wondering what you guys/girls thought was the hardest coloratura
> aria out there. I would find your replies very interesting. Thanks. If you
> could give name of aria and composer.
> My vote would be :
> 1. Grossmachtige Prinzessin ( origional and revised version ) From Ariadne auf
> Naxos ( R. Strauss )
Fiakermilli certainly has it harder than Zerbinetta in either version -
unless you're a natural Fiakermilli (heaven forfend!).
> 2. Ach, ich liebte, was so glucklich ( from Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
> W.A. Mozart )
Many would argue that either one of the Schauspieldirektor arias or Come
scoglio is more demanding. Of course, for a true Silberklang or
Fiordiligi ...
Mike
--
mric...@mindspring.com
http://mrichter.simplenet.com
CD-R http://resource.simplenet.com
Mike Richter
for the soprano at all. Try Tancredi, Arsace, Osmin, Idomeneo. (Or drop
by my WWW site this week to listen to some basses who knew what it was
all about.)
Mike
NoiZe24 wrote:
>
> I have a facination with coloratura rep. and am very into the art of the high
> coloratura soprano (even though I am a tenor.)
> I was just wondering what you guys/girls thought was the hardest coloratura
> aria out there. I would find your replies very interesting. Thanks. If you
> could give name of aria and composer.
> My vote would be :
> 1. Grossmachtige Prinzessin ( origional and revised version ) From Ariadne auf
> Naxos ( R. Strauss )
> 2. Ach, ich liebte, was so glucklich ( from Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
> W.A. Mozart )
--
NoiZe24
OmbraRecds
Estellina Rubinskaya
Adding to Zerbinetta's aria(original version),
1. Zerbinetta's aria(new version)
2. Queen of the Night's second aria
3. Lucia's mad scene
Enzo62
fiendishly difficult.
Jason McVicker
"Us opera singers ain't dumb!"
Katia Ricciarelli
Capa081348
>From: noi...@aol.com (NoiZe24)
>Date: 11/14/98 6:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <19981114210052...@ng30.aol.com>
>
>I have a facination with coloratura rep. and am very into the art of the high
>coloratura soprano (even though I am a tenor.)
>I was just wondering what you guys/girls thought was the hardest coloratura
>aria out there. I would find your replies very interesting. Thanks. If you
>could give name of aria and composer.
>My vote would be :
>1. Grossmachtige Prinzessin ( origional and revised version ) From Ariadne
>auf
>Naxos ( R. Strauss )
>2. Ach, ich liebte, was so glucklich ( from Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail
>W.A. Mozart )
>
I'm no singer, but the fact that I Puritani is so rarely done is pretty solid
evidence that its music is fiendishly difficult (of course, it is saddled with
an implausible libretto, too.) For the soprano, Qui la voce strikes this
observer as very, very difficult. And the baritone and tenor roles are also
nearly impossible to cast.
I listened to Callas sing the "Shadow Song", from Dinorah today; another
difficult coloratura aria.
Pat Finley
Un Bel Di...
MNockin
Ariadne. It's almost never done. Strauss had to write a new one because it
was close to impossible to sing well.
You gonna try it falsetto?
NoiZe24
Oh - i have my moments with that in the car or in the shower, noting anyone
would care to hear. Strauss is rolling over in his grave i would imagine
GRNDPADAVE
one coloratura aria that I love beyond all others and in which the vocal
pyrotechnics add to the musical excitement:
"Die Hoelle Rache" from DIE ZAUBERLOETE.
-
==G/P Dave
james jorden
lyric soprano friend of mine was once asked in desperation if she could
possibly learn and perform Queen of the Night to save a performance of
MAGIC FLUTE. She had never bothered to learn the arias before because
she did not consider herself a "coloratura," but, as a favor the music
director, she agreed at least to read through them. To her surprise,
she found them quite simple, with only a bit of polishing necessary to
get them in acceptable shape for this student performance. This same
soprano worked on and off for years on "Sempre libera" but never was
happy with the descending scales.
A very famous young "mezzo"-soprano has recently performed with ease the
most dazzling baroque display arias by Vivaldi and Mozart, but proved
herself incapable of negotiating "Deh vieni non tardar," an aria that
Kathleen Battle once said "any university junior voice major can sing."
Different people find different things difficult.
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre
"Gay people not only keep opera going,
they keep plays about opera going."
--- Bette Midler
james jorden
>
> If the aria lies well for a singer, it's easy for her. If not, it's
> difficult. In the abstract, I suspect that all are difficult.
Remember, Caballe says that Callas told her that only "two things" are
really difficult in the role of Norma; if you can sing those passages,
you can sing the whole role.
Xise
It goes on for about 10 minutes with all kinds of leaps, trills and all the
coloratura you can think of. The soprano has to have a lot of stamina and be
in excellent shape. She is a ballerina and has to dance while singing.
I have seen many a world-wide numero uno soprano become exhausted before the
aria is over.
Regards,
Ximena
Braden Mechley
> Fiakermilli certainly has it harder than Zerbinetta in either version -
> unless you're a natural Fiakermilli (heaven forfend!).
Sure, though technically the subject under discussion is hardest *arias*,
not *roles*. If we're talking *roles*, no less an expert than Edita
Gruberova has proclaimed Aminta in Strauss' DIE SCHWEIGSAME FRAU harder
than either Zerbinetta or 'milli.
** Braden Mechley ** ele...@u.washington.edu ** Department of Classics **
Capa081348
>From: grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE)
>Date: 11/15/98 4:39 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <19981115073914...@ng66.aol.com>
I absolutely agree, and "pyrotechnics" is a very apt description, Dave. One of
those cases, of which there are many, where Mozart's music is so evocative of
the character of the singer. (Sarastro, Cherubino, Zerlina, the Countess, among
many other examples). I think that in this area, Mozart is supreme.
Verdi, on the other hand, occasionally assigned some of his finest arias to
characters to whom they do not seem quite so well-suited. Di Luna's "Il
Balen", and the Duke's "La Donna e Mobile" are good examples. The Duke singing
that WOMEN are fickle!
Weaver translates part of that area as
"The man's always wretched
Who believes in her,
Who recklessly entrusts
His Heart to Her. "
Those words belong more properly to a Don Jose, than a Duke Of Mantua.
But maybe I'm being unfair; the music of the aria, which conveys a sense of
flippancy and perhaps juvenility, IS appropriate to the Duke, I guess, who is
oblivious to how his amatory pursuits have undermined the lives of those around
him. (Hmm, sounds familiar, doesn't it?)
Enrique Eskenazi
capa0...@aol.com (Capa081348) wrote:
>Verdi, on the other hand, occasionally assigned some of his finest
arias to
>characters to whom they do not seem quite so well-suited. Di Luna's
"Il
>Balen", and the Duke's "La Donna e Mobile" are good examples. The Duke
singing
>that WOMEN are fickle!
I think that aria is fit for the Duca in many respects:
1) The Duca is exactly "unfaithful" as he sings of the women. We had
heard him before (prior act) almost crying bc. "ella mi fu rapita" and
stating that with Gilda he feels "almost moved to be virtuous" (quasi
spinto a virtu), but now we see him wooing another girl, not even
recalling Gilda. It is a magnificent example of what is called
"psychological projection", isn't it?. And it confirms what he sung in
his first aria: "Questa o quella per me pari sonno"
2) Musically, it is gay, frivolous, charming and superficial. More or
less like the Duca himself
3) Most important: the simplicity of the tune has also its dramatic
purpose, and fulfills it quite marvelously IMO. The melody is simple,
catchy, so that can be easily remembered by the audience, specially when
later Rigoletto is pushing the corpse and hears it again. It is the
necessary hint for Rigoletto to understand that the Duca is still alive.
About Di Luna, it's the only moment in which he can explain his love for
Leonora. And the music rises from the peaceful beginning: "The light of
her smile makes the light of the stars seem pale" to the more intense
fires of his love: "the tempest of my heart...the love, the love that
burns in me". The music is passionate and affirmative, the same as the
Count. He may be brutal, but is this aria his only chance to manifests
also his loving a passionate nature.
O,h, how I love Verdi's music!
---
Enrique
eske...@mail.sendanet.es
Io chi sono? Eh, non lo so.
-Nol sapete?
Quasi no.
GRNDPADAVE
>Verdi, on the other hand, occasionally assigned some of his finest arias to
>characters to whom they do not seem quite so well-suited. Di Luna's "Il
>Balen", and the Duke's "La Donna e Mobile" are good examples. The Duke
>singing
>that WOMEN are fickle!
>
>"The man's always wretched
>Who believes in her,
>Who recklessly entrusts
>His Heart to Her. "
>
>Those words belong more properly to a Don Jose, than a Duke Of Mantua.
>
>But maybe I'm being unfair; the music of the aria, which conveys a sense of
>flippancy and perhaps juvenility, IS appropriate to the Duke, I guess, who is
>oblivious to how his amatory pursuits have undermined the lives of those
>around
>him. (Hmm, sounds familiar, doesn't it?)
>
>
>
>
>Pat Finley
>Un Bel Di...
Verdi's "La Donna e Mobile" is one of the great coups de théâtres as the French
would say.
-
The historical François Premier, after whom the Duke is modeled, is supposed to
have scratched on his window pane, using a diamond ring: "chaque femme est
différente".
-
Of course, the irony of the Duke's canzone is that it he who is fickle, while
Gilda is the one whose constancy leads her to sacrifice her life to save him.
-
Of course this has nothing to do with coloratura except that Gilda is one of
the rare Verdi roles that requires it. "Caro nome" is built around a falling
scale that is the musical equivalent of a sigh. The trills are essential to
the aria. Best I ever heard in this role was Erna Berger. Come to think of
it, she is my favorite Queen of the Night, too.
-
All the best,
G/P Dave
che...@postoffice2.bellatlantic.net
suis Titania" and Lakme's "Bell Song" should be at the top of the list. The Mad
Scene from Hamlet also is up there.
Arias like "Martern aller Arten" and "Ach ich Liebte" sound harder than they are.
If you have a solid range, and have no trouble with scales and support, they are not
really hard. Mozart was smart when writing for the soprano voice, and set the
difficult passages up very well. The only thing I worry about when singing
Konstanze is that my accompanist might screw up. A different level of pinpoint
accuracy is needed in the French arias I mentioned.
Mike Richter wrote:
> If the aria lies well for a singer, it's easy for her. If not, it's
> difficult. In the abstract, I suspect that all are difficult.
I agree Mike. It depends on the individual talent of the soprano.
> NoiZe24 wrote:
> > My vote would be :
> > 1. Grossmachtige Prinzessin ( origional and revised version ) From Ariadne auf
> > Naxos ( R. Strauss )
Yes, this also is a challenge.
> Many would argue that either one of the Schauspieldirektor arias or Come
> scoglio is more demanding. Of course, for a true Silberklang or
> Fiordiligi ...
Nope - there are much more challenging arias in the Mozart soprano rep. How about
"Non piu di fiori"?
Mike Richter
> Arias like "Martern aller Arten" and "Ach ich Liebte" sound harder than they are.
> If you have a solid range, and have no trouble with scales and support, they are not
> really hard. Mozart was smart when writing for the soprano voice, and set the
> difficult passages up very well.
Sopranos are not the only ones to benefit from Mozart's skills. Every
voice for which he wrote is realized ideally. If you have solid
technique, there's no reason to fear any of his compositions. Of course,
the technical demands for Sarastro are not the same as those for Osmin
and Idomeneo needs different skills from Ottavio - but the bass or tenor
(or baritone or mezzo) finds the music as well suited to his/her
instrument as does the soprano.
Mike
Rodelinda
(Okay, technically it's not a coloratura *soprano* piece, but it still sounds
pretty damn hard.)
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 17:24 EST
>Message-id: <72nk0d$4ag$1...@talia.mad.ibernet.es>
>arias to
>>characters to whom they do not seem quite so well-suited. Di Luna's
>"Il
>>Balen", and the Duke's "La Donna e Mobile" are good examples. The Duke
>singing
>>that WOMEN are fickle!
>
Thanks for offering a superb analysis of "La Donna e Mobile", an aria which
Stravinsky once stated as exemplifying more genius than the entirety of
Wagner's RING.
-
Rigoletto's triumph interrupted by the off-stage Duke singing "La Donna e
Mobile" is a bit of magic that has gripped operatic audiences since March 11,
1851.
-
On the subject of "Il Balen", I think Professor Gabriele Baldini said it best
observing that a line like "Ah l'amor, l'amore ond'ardo" does not merely
describe the baritone's passion, but causes the entire audience to sing
collectively, albeit silently, with him.
-
Di Luna must retain some sympathy because in the end it is his tragedy. He has
fulfilled the Gypsy's vengeance by murdering his own brother.
-
Verdi's music (like Shakespeare's poetry) is capable of making the supernatural
seem not merely plausible but horrifically and yet beautifully truthful.
==G/P Dave
skip
difficult one, First aria in La Sonammbula, Strauss's Amore, Lucia's
first aria, of course all of bel canto is subject to difficulty,
depending on ornamentations that are used.
che...@postoffice2.bellatlantic.net wrote:
>
> I'm a dramatic coloratura soprano checking in to cast my vote. I think both "Je
> suis Titania" and Lakme's "Bell Song" should be at the top of the list. The Mad
> Scene from Hamlet also is up there.
>
> Arias like "Martern aller Arten" and "Ach ich Liebte" sound harder than they are.
> If you have a solid range, and have no trouble with scales and support, they are not
> really hard. Mozart was smart when writing for the soprano voice, and set the
Cfehlandt
>Strauss.
>It goes on for about 10 minutes with all kinds of leaps, trills and all the
>coloratura you can think of.
I would second this suggestion and also nominate "The Soldier Tired" from
Artaxerxes.
CF
Christina West
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
> Of course this has nothing to do with coloratura except that Gilda
> is one of the rare Verdi roles that requires it.
Verdi himself wrote, re this aria, to the husband of the soprano,
Teresa de Giuli-Borsi:
"As for the cavatina in the first act, I don't see where agility comes
into it. Perhaps you haven't understood the tempo, which should be
Allegretto molto lento. At a moderate pace, and sung sottovoce, it
shouldn't give the slightest difficulty".
I suspect he was being disingenuous; Borsi had been pestering him
- unsuccessfully - for an extra aria for Gilda. The aria, while not
vocally elaborate, certainly requires a sound trill, and well-placed
and accurate staccati. Perhaps in those days, of course, these assets
were taken for granted! :)
--
Christina West
xina on IRC
Email: xi...@argonet.co.uk
Web: www.argonet.co.uk/users/xina/
Mark D. Lew
> Verdi, on the other hand, occasionally assigned some of his finest arias to
> characters to whom they do not seem quite so well-suited. Di Luna's "Il
> Balen", and the Duke's "La Donna e Mobile" are good examples.
No no no, "Il balen" is absolutely crucial to Di Luna. Without it he
becomes just another generic villain.
Charles Osborne is more articulate than I, so I'll quote him:
<< Di Luna is a man whom desire has driven virtually to madness, and this
is reflected in his music. He is not an evil, Iago-like figure, but an
_homme plus sensuel_ pushed completely off balance: Verdi's music conveys
this with a Mozartian precision. >>
Boos and hisses to the baritone who treats it simply as a lovely tune, when
Verdi has made it so much more. "Il balen" gives the baritone a chance to
encapsulate his entire character development in a single aria. The
attraction which starts out so suave gradually becomes more obsessive, so
that by "Ah, l'amor, l'amore ond'ardo" he sounds just a little bit crazy,
and by the second "sperda il sole d'un suo sguardo" he sounds more than a
little desperate. By the time he reaches the cabaletta (ie, "Per me ora
fatale") he's totally out of control.
mdl
zerbi...@my-dejanews.com
noi...@aol.com (NoiZe24) wrote:
> I have a facination with coloratura rep. and am very into the art of the high
> coloratura soprano (even though I am a tenor.)
> I was just wondering what you guys/girls thought was the hardest coloratura
> aria out there.
Fuor del mar, from Idomeneo (lots of middle voice runs for the tenor--terribly
difficult stuff).
No, no, I'll take no less, from Semele (try it sometime. Weird intervals PLUS
middle voice runs for the soprano).
Zerbinetta
a.a. #1248
--
"We're women. We have double standards to live up to."
--Ally McBeal
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
G Riggs
> I'm a dramatic coloratura soprano checking in to cast my vote. <snip> Arias like
> "Martern aller Arten" and "Ach ich Liebte" sound harder than they are.
> If you have a solid range, and have no trouble with scales and support, they are not
> really hard. Mozart was smart when writing for the soprano voice, and set the
> difficult passages up very well. The only thing I worry about when singing
> Konstanze is that my accompanist might screw up. <snip>
>
> Mike Richter wrote:
>
> > If the aria lies well for a singer, it's easy for her. If not, it's
> > difficult. In the abstract, I suspect that all are difficult.
>
> I agree Mike. It depends on the individual talent of the soprano.
>
> > NoiZe24 wrote:
> > > My vote would be :
> > > 1. Grossmachtige Prinzessin ( origional and revised version ) From Ariadne auf
> > > Naxos ( R. Strauss )
>
> Yes, this also is a challenge.
>
> > Many would argue that either one of the Schauspieldirektor arias or Come
> > scoglio is more demanding. Of course, for a true Silberklang or
> > Fiordiligi ...
>
> Nope - there are much more challenging arias in the Mozart soprano rep. How about
> "Non piu di fiori"?
Upon reflection, I must agree on the last point. In fact, both "Non piu di fiori"
(Clemenza di Tito) and "D'Oreste d'Ajace" (Idomeneo) would probably be my candidates for
the most difficult arias Mozart ever composed for the prima donna.
G Riggs
========================================
The Collector's Guide to Opera Recordings and Videos
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023
========================================
Larisa Migachyov
:che...@postoffice2.bellatlantic.net wrote:
:
:> Arias like "Martern aller Arten" and "Ach ich Liebte" sound harder than they are.
:> If you have a solid range, and have no trouble with scales and support, they are not
:> really hard. Mozart was smart when writing for the soprano voice, and set the
:> difficult passages up very well.
:Sopranos are not the only ones to benefit from Mozart's skills. Every
:voice for which he wrote is realized ideally. If you have solid
:technique, there's no reason to fear any of his compositions. Of course,
:the technical demands for Sarastro are not the same as those for Osmin
:and Idomeneo needs different skills from Ottavio - but the bass or tenor
:(or baritone or mezzo) finds the music as well suited to his/her
:instrument as does the soprano.
But why, o why did Mozart write nothing for contralto? <sigh>
--
Larisa Migachyov * Quant'e bella giovinezza
Biomechanical Engineering * Che si fugge tuttavia!
Stanford University * Chi vuol esser lieto, sia;
http://www.stanford.edu/~lvm * Di doman non c'e certezza.
Mike Richter
> But why, o why did Mozart write nothing for contralto? <sigh>
In fact, he wrote nothing for the baritone, either. He wrote for the
voice categories he had around. So, you may have to do with some of
those pants roles - and you will find them just as satisfying in their
way.
Recommendation: Find somewhere Maureen Forrester's LP (I'm almost sure
no one has transferred it to CD, but I'd love to be wrong) Westminster
WST-17074. Put on Side 2, band 1, ''Non piu di fior''. Then complain
that he wrote nothing for contralto.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 20:21 EST
>Message-id: <58b2a6a548%xi...@argonet.co.uk>
It seems to me that "Caro nome" is the aria Sulllivan is parodying with the
outrageous coloratura of Mabel's "Poor Wandering One". The episode beginning
"Take ha-ha-ha-heart" shows Frederick's bride-to-be to be as pure as Gilda --
and given the situation -- almost as brave.
-
==G/P Dave
Capa081348
>From: mark...@earthlink.net (Mark D. Lew)
>Date: 11/16/98 6:40 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>
Hi, Mark
I guess we read di Luna differently. I DO see him as pretty much a generic
villain, who sings that one aria that is totally out of character with
everything else we know about him. A few quotations (from William Weaver's
translation:
"Tie those knots, tighter!" (re Azucena)
"Oh, Luck, she's in my power!" (ditto)
"With your torture, then, I can wound his heart!"
"As dawn breaks, the son to the block, the mother to the stake!"
"Vengeance is my only God!"
"I would like to make worse the unworthy man's fate! Make him die a hundred
deaths in a thousand horrible spasms!"
This is not a nice man, Mark. The only reason we warm to him at all, is that
one wonderful aria, which again, I submit, this sadist does not deserve. Read
all of his other words, (at least in the Weaver text) and then "Il Balen".
Instead of the other way around, assuming that the "Il Balen" Count doesn't
seem like such a bad guy, and then rationalizing his subsequent actions.
Again my original point was that Mozart has no peer in melding the music to the
character. I think the world of Verdi, but here and occasionally elsewhere, I
think, Verdi had some great music in his head and worked it into the opera
even though it was inappropriate to the character to whom he entrusted it.
Someone else suggested that "La Donna e Mobile" was some kind of psychological
projection of motives, or something to that effect, and was really very apropos
for the Duke. That's a bit too subtle for me, and I submit for Verdi, as well.
Again, I think he had a great tune, and wanted to work it into the opera
some way or other; the music IS appropriate to the Duke, light, frivolous. But
the words are not. "Questa o quella" is perfect for the Duke; but women being
"mobile" has nothing to do with the rest of the text, as I read it.
Best Regards,
GRNDPADAVE
>Someone else suggested that "La Donna e Mobile" was some kind of
>psychological
>projection of motives, or something to that effect, and was really very
>apropos
>for the Duke. That's a bit too subtle for me, and I submit for Verdi, as
>well.
> Again, I think he had a great tune, and wanted to work it into the opera
>some way or other; the music IS appropriate to the Duke, light, frivolous.
>But
>the words are not. "Questa o quella" is perfect for the Duke; but women being
>"mobile" has nothing to do with the rest of the text, as I read it.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Pat Finley
Verdi and Piave were never so close to creating a vital a Don Giovanni-like
character as when they built their Duke of Mantua around Hugo's Françpos
Premier, a historic personnage (first Valois king and patron of Leonardo).
This king is famous for his saying "Souvent femme varie" (which is what "La
Donna e Mobile" is all about).
-
The irony of this music and text has been discussed before. Verdi, in this
opera, vindicates his tutor, Lavigniac (sp), who forced the young Verdi to
copy and memorize much of DON GIOVANNI. (Verdi said he could never enjoy
Mozart as a result of this kind of training) -- but the minuet in Act I of
RIGOLETTO shows the gain as well as the elegance of the Perigordino (dance
music) in the same scene. Piave, whom I rate above Boito as a librettist,
never did anything better, but he nearly equalled this triumph in LA TRAVIATA .
(A delectable sidebar is the support Giuseppina displayed towards Piave when
the latter was being bullied by the irascible Lion of Bussetto).
-
==G/P Dave
Mark D. Lew
(Capa081348) wrote:
> I guess we read di Luna differently. I DO see him as pretty much a generic
> villain, who sings that one aria that is totally out of character with
> everything else we know about him. A few quotations (from William Weaver's
> translation:
<<quotes snipped>>
> This is not a nice man, Mark. The only reason we warm to him at all, is that
> one wonderful aria, which again, I submit, this sadist does not deserve. Read
> all of his other words, (at least in the Weaver text) and then "Il Balen".
> Instead of the other way around, assuming that the "Il Balen" Count doesn't
> seem like such a bad guy, and then rationalizing his subsequent actions.
>
> Again my original point was that Mozart has no peer in melding the music
to the
> character....
Of course he's not a nice man. I didn't say he isn't a villain; I said he
isn't a "generic villain". The aria can show us how he came to be the
weird passionate sadist that he is.
I acknowledge that you have a different opinion on this, and I don't need
to change your mind, but for others who my be following along, I'm going to
repeat myself and quote Charles Osborne again, because I think he states
the point exactly:
<< Di Luna is a man whom desire has driven virtually to madness, and this
is reflected in his music. He is not an evil, Iago-like figure, but an
_homme plus sensuel_ pushed completely off balance: Verdi's music conveys
this with a Mozartian precision. >>
mdl
Mark D. Lew
(Capa081348) wrote:
> I agree with you and Mr. Osborne in the sense that Verdi's MUSIC conveys the
> impression of di Luna that you and the esteemed Mr. Osborne share. But the
> TEXT of the opera, I submit, does not. And again, that is my point, that
> occasionally Verdi's music is not suited to the character who sings it, based
> upon the personality of the character as revealed to us through his words and
> the words of the characters around him.
OK, I'll buy that. Still, I think the more complex character is more
interesting. I like to see a singer/actor make the most of a character,
even if it means extrapolating beyond what is explicit in the text (or the
music).
mdl
Carol Wald
Italian titled simply _Tosca_, which is written in the first person
singular by *Scarpia* from his "journals" and shows all too clearly how
obsessive passion can become sadistic -- and how its all weirdly
rationalized, the sadism vindicated, by the thwarted lover.
(Remember to buy at independent booksellers!!) Carol
Capa081348
>Message-id: <markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>
>
>In article <19981117003951...@ng72.aol.com>, capa0...@aol.com
I agree with you and Mr. Osborne in the sense that Verdi's MUSIC conveys the
impression of di Luna that you and the esteemed Mr. Osborne share. But the
TEXT of the opera, I submit, does not. And again, that is my point, that
occasionally Verdi's music is not suited to the character who sings it, based
upon the personality of the character as revealed to us through his words and
the words of the characters around him.
But I'm probably being too much of a textualist in a primarily musical medium,
here. I suppose that some opera composers might assume that their audience is
familiar with the source material. I do not know if, in Gutierrez' play on
which Il Trovatore is based, if di Luna is more of the distraught, crazed,
rejected lover that you suggest, or the awful monster that his own words in the
opera seem to show him to be. Verdi may have taken some short cuts,
character-wise, if the play was well-known to the public of his time (so that
he wouldn't have to spend much time on the subtleties of the characters).
But enough of this micro-analysis! It's a beautiful opera, Il Trovatore, by a
great composer, and, to paraphrase Keats ever so slightly,
"Beauty is truth, truth beauty," that is all
We know on earth, and all we need to know.
Capa081348
>From: Carol Wald <cw...@earthlink.net>
>Date: 11/17/98 10:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <3651BE...@earthlink.net>
Hi, Carol,
Certainly sexual obsession can ruin an otherwise good man. Heck, I was once
accepted in polite society!
Seriously, though, in this instance at least, Puccini's touch was a little
surer than Verdi's I think. Scarpia (like di Luna, IMO) is evil personified.
He is wicked, treacherous, lustful and sadistic. And just about every note of
Puccini's score bears this out, as does s almost every word of Scarpia's in the
libretto.
Mark, for whom I have great respect, wrote that he likes an actor to make the
most of a character, even if it means extrapolating beyond what is explicit in
the text. And I agree with this up to a point. Lord knows there have probably
been thousands of interpretations of Hamlet in the last four hundred years.
And I am not totally against a Peter Sellars, say, updating the milieu of an
eighteenth century opera. There is no one way.
But we have to be careful with this, too. I think it's fair to say that most of
us don't want modern singers to invent their own musical ornamentations -- that
they should, for the most part, sing the music as written. But shouldn't they
also refrain from "ornamentation" of the characters they portray? I think most
libretti offer a range of reasonable interpretations of the major characters (I
think one could reasonably portray Pinkerton as either unfeeling or dense or
both, for example). But if actors adopt personae that are in no way justified
by the text, I think that's carrying things a bit too far. And anyone who
portrays di Luna, as a good, or normal, or decent man, driven to distraction
and destruction, by his obsession for Leonora, is finding a character in the
text that I just don't think is there.
DIVAMEG
I have missed part of this thread, perhaps, and am taking this quote out of
context, but to say Mozart didn't write for the baritone voice?
The Count Almaviva would beg to differ!
Larisa Migachyov
:Larisa Migachyov wrote:
:
:> But why, o why did Mozart write nothing for contralto? <sigh>
:In fact, he wrote nothing for the baritone, either. He wrote for the
:voice categories he had around. So, you may have to do with some of
:those pants roles - and you will find them just as satisfying in their
:way.
:
:Recommendation: Find somewhere Maureen Forrester's LP (I'm almost sure
:no one has transferred it to CD, but I'd love to be wrong) Westminster
:WST-17074. Put on Side 2, band 1, ''Non piu di fior''. Then complain
:that he wrote nothing for contralto.
Oh, I know that aria; but it's for a mezzo, not for a contralto. So are
the pants roles.
Deborah Overes
Larisa Migachyov wrote in message <737imc$6vl$1...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>...
>Mike Richter wrote:
>:Larisa Migachyov wrote:
>:
>:> But why, o why did Mozart write nothing for contralto? <sigh>
>:
>:In fact, he wrote nothing for the baritone, either. He wrote for the
>:voice categories he had around. So, you may have to do with some of
>:those pants roles - and you will find them just as satisfying in their
>:way.
>:
>:Recommendation: Find somewhere Maureen Forrester's LP (I'm almost sure
>:no one has transferred it to CD, but I'd love to be wrong) Westminster
>:WST-17074. Put on Side 2, band 1, ''Non piu di fior''. Then complain
>:that he wrote nothing for contralto.
>
>Oh, I know that aria; but it's for a mezzo, not for a contralto. So are
>the pants roles.
>
>--
>Larisa Migachyov
There are some contralto arias in "Mitridate" and the oratorio "La Betulia
Liberata", although I believe these were originally for countertenor. There
is also a concert aria titled "Ombra felice" (which Maureen Forrester has
recorded as well). Further than that, we have to settle for Third Lady in
"Die Zauberflote" and Marcelina in "Le Nozze di Figaro" as long as they cut
the aria. Is there anything sadder than being a Mozart freak AND a
contralto? Sigh indeed.
Deborah Overes
The Undiva
Daniel Gundlach
Deborah Overes wrote in message ...
>
>There are some contralto arias in "Mitridate" and the oratorio "La Betulia
>Liberata", although I believe these were originally for countertenor.
Surely not _originally_ for countertenor, but perhaps castrato. There are
also low-ish roles in Ascanio in Alba (the title role) and Apollo et
Hyacinthus (both Zephyrus and Apollo).
Not his most inspired music, perhaps, but even here, there are moments...
Daniel
Shahrdad
G Riggs wrote in message <364E47EB...@concentric.net>...NoiZe24 wrote:
I have a facination with coloratura rep. and am very into the art of the high
coloratura soprano (even though I am a tenor.)
I was just wondering what you guys/girls thought was the hardest coloratura
aria out there. I would find your replies very interesting. Thanks. If youThere may not be any single aria that is the absolute hardest, and what is difficult for one singer may be less difficult for another. But among the top half dozen have to be:
could give name of aria and composer.1) Queen Elisabetta's "Ah ritorna qual ti spera" from Act I of Donizetti's Roberto Devereux
2) the Cabaletta to Anna Belena's mad scene - "Coppia iniqua"
3) "Salgo gia", Abigaille's cabaletta from Act II of Nabucco.
These are all very difficult pieces, but none are part of the high coloratura repertoire. They require a dramatico-coloratura, a singer such as Callas or Sutherland. Sills did a nice job with the first two, especially the Devereux one, though none were truly suited to her voice. She had the ambition and the technique to pull them off nicely, but at great cost to her delicate instrument. Callas' Bolena Mad Scene will probably remain unrivaled; Sills is also very good, but Sutherland was very near to retirement. The best version of the Nabucco cabaletta is probably Callas' from 1949, in horrible sound, but she tears through the music with incredible power, trills with the force of a hurricane, and a clarion high C. She herself never equaled this version. All other singers seem to fall short in one way or another, weak or non-existent trills, poor agility, or an overtaxed instrument. Dimitrova is pretty good in this, though her trills aren't really up to snuff.
As for the High Coloratura repertoire, I think a great test is Elvira's Qui la Voce. One needs flawless technique to pull off the cavatina, and the cabaletta is a great test of agility and scale-work, diatonic and chromatic. Mozart also has many concert arias which only the finest technician can pull off. He gives the singers runs that never seem to end, and then asks them to go up to a high F and even two high G's (in Popoli di Tesoglia). And as for Verdi, very few sopranos are able to fully succeed in Sempre Libera, especially the little notes near the very end. Many have to fake that section, or rewrite it altogether.
S.
HenryFogel
>From: "Shahrdad" <Shah...@email.msn.com>
>Date: 11/D/YYYY 5:33 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <1P%72.225$fu2.3...@typhoon.stlnet.com>
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BE1AF5.3F0ED940
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable> NoiZe24 wrote:=20
> I have a facination with coloratura rep. and am very into the =
>art of the high=20
> coloratura soprano (even though I am a tenor.)=20
> I was just wondering what you guys/girls thought was the hardest =
>coloratura=20
> aria out there. I would find your replies very interesting. =
>Thanks. If you=20
> could give name of aria and composer.
>what is difficult for one singer may be less difficult for another. But =
>among the top half dozen have to be:=20
> 1) Queen Elisabetta's "Ah ritorna qual ti spera" from Act I of =
>Donizetti's Roberto Devereux=20
> 2) the Cabaletta to Anna Belena's mad scene - "Coppia iniqua"=20
> 3) "Salgo gia", Abigaille's cabaletta from Act II of Nabucco.=20
>
> =20
>
> These are all very difficult pieces, but none are part of the high =
>coloratura repertoire. They require a dramatico-coloratura, a singer =
>such as Callas or Sutherland. Sills did a nice job with the first two, =
>especially the Devereux one, though none were truly suited to her voice. =
> She had the ambition and the technique to pull them off nicely, but at =
>great cost to her delicate instrument. Callas' Bolena Mad Scene will =
>probably remain unrivaled; Sills is also very good, but Sutherland was =
>very near to retirement. The best version of the Nabucco cabaletta is =
>probably Callas' from 1949, in horrible sound, but she tears through the =
>music with incredible power, trills with the force of a hurricane, and a =
>clarion high C. She herself never equaled this version. All other =
>singers seem to fall short in one way or another, weak or non-existent =
>trills, poor agility, or an overtaxed instrument. Dimitrova is pretty =
>good in this, though her trills aren't really up to snuff. =20
>
> As for the High Coloratura repertoire, I think a great test is =
>Elvira's Qui la Voce. One needs flawless technique to pull off the =
>cavatina, and the cabaletta is a great test of agility and scale-work, =
>diatonic and chromatic. Mozart also has many concert arias which only =
>the finest technician can pull off. He gives the singers runs that =
>never seem to end, and then asks them to go up to a high F and even two =
>high G's (in Popoli di Tesoglia). And as for Verdi, very few sopranos =
>are able to fully succeed in Sempre Libera, especially the little notes =
>near the very end. Many have to fake that section, or rewrite it =
>altogether.
>
I would have said Zerbinetta's aria from Strauss' Ariadne auf Naxos --
particularly in its original version; it is difficult, it is very long, and it
requires a good deal of physical action during the singing as well.
Henry Fogel
PANPERSON
to do all that colluratura work.
David: My coffee cup says "hold me I am a fermata" And leave a chocolate
chip cookie as well.
zerbi...@my-dejanews.com
"Shahrdad" <Shah...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> As for the High Coloratura repertoire, I think a great test is =
> Elvira's Qui la Voce. One needs flawless technique to pull off the =
> cavatina, and the cabaletta is a great test of agility and scale-work, =
> diatonic and chromatic. Mozart also has many concert arias which only =
> the finest technician can pull off. He gives the singers runs that =
> never seem to end, and then asks them to go up to a high F and even two =
> high G's (in Popoli di Tesoglia). And as for Verdi, very few sopranos =
> are able to fully succeed in Sempre Libera, especially the little notes =
> near the very end. Many have to fake that section, or rewrite it =
> altogether.
>
> S.
I wouldn't necessarily call either Elvira in Puritani or Violetta roles for a
"high coloratura" voice--both call for significant vocal weight and carrying
power in the middle of the voice, along with vocal agility. The reason
"Sempre libera is so hard," IMO, is that the kind of voice that can succeed
in the rest of the opera is somewhat limited in agility.