Older Divas/Younger Men
Cindi123654
I just came from seeing the wonderful Christine Goerke sing Donna Anna in
Pittsburgh
and saw another Donna Anna in the audience, Carol Vaness. Apparently Vaness
was there to cheer on her boyfriend Charles Castronovo who was singing Ottavio.
From my view, Castronovo has got to be no older than 25. Does anyone know?
And does anyone know of any other May-December couplings?
REG
there's Tetrazzini, who lost all her money according to Scott (??) on a
much younger man. And there is one of my absolutely favorite divas -
everyone will know who - who just stopped singing in the last couple of
years - who had been many years out of America in the late sixties and
seventies, and then returned, having finally given up a husband who
consistently undermined her career (not just according to me, but to a
biographer) for a much younger man.
Not, as Ancona has observed, that there's anything wrong with that...
"Cindi123654" <cindi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011104174806...@mb-fc.aol.com...
David Melnick
Miss Vaness is not in the December of her life. I say Go for it, girl!
Grant Menzies
>Has anyone noticed the amount of opera singers with their younger boyfriends?
>I just came from seeing the wonderful Christine Goerke sing Donna Anna in
>Pittsburgh
>and saw another Donna Anna in the audience, Carol Vaness. Apparently Vaness
>was there to cheer on her boyfriend Charles Castronovo who was singing Ottavio.
<snip>
He's singing Ferrando in our COSI in Portland this February, and I'm
told that Ms. Vaness will be here to cheer him on, too. Should be
fun.
Grant
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Grant Menzies
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lis K. Froding
cindi...@aol.com (Cindi123654) wrote:
I seem to recall that Carol Vaness was married to a somewhat
younger man quite a few years ago.
Lis
Jeff
Vaness is only 48, although I am not certain how old Castronovo is. The
couple is singing together quite a bit theses days. Last summer it was in
Savonlinna, and next year in Toulouse, and I believe in Dallas in 2003 in
Don Giovanni. I am not certain if Castronovo is also in the cast for LA
Opera's upcoming "The Merry Widow," which Ms. Vaness is slated to sing.
Since Ms. Vaness is in Pittsburgh, does this mean that she will be singing
in Pittsburgh Opera's "Salome" after all ?
Jeff
Parterrebox
offered as a package with Castronuovo as the Italian Singer.
CB White
dmel...@pacbell.net wrote on 11/4/01 5:18 PM:
> My Dear,
>
> Miss Vaness is not in the December of her life. I say Go for it, girl!
Even December doesn't mean dead. My father died this summer at age 84,
having had an affair with a married woman for the last 11 years of his life.
Trust me; it wasn't platonic. I ran into the, um, evidence.
Lis K. Froding
A different kind of coupling might be Caballe/Carreras, Sutherland/Pavarotti.
Lis
CBWeimer
>offered as a package with Castronuovo as the Italian Singer.
There's a nice life-imitates-art element to Vaness offering that particular
opera & role in this context, you know?
Christopher Weimer
si...@webtv.net
> father died this summer at age 84,
> having had an affair with a married
> woman for the last 11 years of his life.
> Trust me; it wasn't platonic. I ran into
> the, um, evidence.
CB, forgive me if I'm being too personal: please accept my condolences
upon the loss of your father. But what a hoot he must have been if the
above story is any indication. What a surprise that must have been for
you <g>
Best John
Ancona21
Now there's a mental picture to give you nightmares. As Bebe described her
night of love with Frasier: Greco-Roman wrestling on a trampoline.
Ancona
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
Cindi123654 wrote:
>
> Has anyone noticed the amount of opera singers with their younger boyfriends?
> I just came from seeing the wonderful Christine Goerke sing Donna Anna in
> Pittsburgh
> and saw another Donna Anna in the audience, Carol Vaness. Apparently Vaness
> was there to cheer on her boyfriend Charles Castronovo who was singing Ottavio.
> From my view, Castronovo has got to be no older than 25. Does anyone know?
That sounds about right. FYI, they were already an "item"
when Charles was on of our "resident company", here in Los
Angeles. It's easy to make uncharitable remarks about a
young singer at the start of his career taking up with an
established diva, but in this case, they seem to be
genuinely devoted (and it's been going on for several years,
now).
Valfer
with a man and a woman becoming romantically involved, no matter their ages.
Could it be perhaps that you took a fancy for the named tenor, only to find
out that he was already "taken"?
Valfer
"Cindi123654" <cindi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011104174806...@mb-fc.aol.com...
CB White
si...@webtv.net at si...@webtv.net wrote on 11/4/01 10:32 PM:
Thank you, John! And yes, it was a surprise. I was still running into the
stuff after he died. I never figured out what some of that stuff was *for*!
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
Valfer wrote:
>
> Sorry, but I must show my displeasure at this posting. I see nothing wrong
> with a man and a woman becoming romantically involved, no matter their ages.
>
> Could it be perhaps that you took a fancy for the named tenor, only to find
> out that he was already "taken"?
>
You may be right, Valfer - I've met the young man, and he's
tall and handsome, with a charming personality, as well as a
pretty good voice. A young woman could easily "take a
fancy" to him, I think. (And some young people seem to think
that "romance" belongs only to those under thirty.)
Mark D Lew
(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> (And some young people seem to think
> that "romance" belongs only to those under thirty.)
Well, that's about how old I was when I lost interest in "romance".
Perhaps the urge comes back later in life?
mdl
Valfer
died ten years later in his girlfriend's bed. I guess I carry his genes.
Valfer
"Mark D Lew" <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net...
Matthew B. Tepper
ya02408000R06...@news.earthlink.net:
Yep, it sure does, if the "right" partner shows up!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Matthew B. Tepper
news:A8TF7.803$vB.3...@eagle.america.net:
> No problem with "that" here. My great-grandfather was widowed at age
> 86 and died ten years later in his girlfriend's bed. I guess I carry
> his genes.
My widowed dad (who will be 84 on Saturday) remarried earlier this year,
and it wasn't "merely" for companionship.
Ron Obvious
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9s951...@enews3.newsguy.com...
> "Valfer" <Val...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> news:A8TF7.803$vB.3...@eagle.america.net:
>
> > No problem with "that" here. My great-grandfather was widowed at age
> > 86 and died ten years later in his girlfriend's bed. I guess I carry
> > his genes.
>
> My widowed dad (who will be 84 on Saturday) remarried earlier this year,
> and it wasn't "merely" for companionship.
>
Does that mean your stepmother is a good cook and does the laundry without
complaint?
Ron Obvious
Matthew B. Tepper
news:9sc4lm$vad$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net:
She's an excellent cook and he does the laundry.
A Tsar Is Born
news:3BE7631D...@earthlink.net...
I must protest against the EXTREME inaccuracy of this discussion, at least
as propounded by Ms. Gamble.
Charles is indeed very handsome, very charming, very young and a damn good
singer to boot. (Lovely liquid line, flawless enunciation.)
But tall he ain't, by any reasonable definition (and this has been noted in
reviews of his performances with tall sopranos).
Hans "the Hobbit" Lick
atsar...@hotmail.com
Ancona21
without complaint? >>
Have you heard the one about the man who married a woman who was half-French
and half-Chinese?
Ancona The Stereotypist
Tom Hamilton
Maybe someone out there can verify this operatic urban legend.
It was stated by a former Met Bass-baritone who coached me for a while that
Gladys Swarthout sang her best after being 'Serviced' back stage before her
entrance?
Just curious..
Tom
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyţ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9scv9...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> "Ron Obvious" <chryst...@infi.net> wrote in
> news:9sc4lm$vad$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net:
>
> >
> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyţ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
Ron Obvious
"Ancona21" <anco...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011108133205...@mb-fc.aol.com...
No. I am but a simple man who is never happier than when skimming the
surface of complex matters in search of the plain and simple. But I have
referred your question to David Melnick who is acquainted with the ascending
node of the ecliptic on the celestial equator and may be able to assist you.
But, parenthetically, I have read that the French are a nation of children.
Is there any truth to that?
Ron The Obvious
Matthew B. Tepper
news:20011108133205...@mb-fc.aol.com:
Do tell -- I have a psycho-bitch-ex-girlfriend-from-hell who was part
French and part Chinese, so this sounds like more ammunition!
Ron Obvious
> anco...@aol.com (Ancona21) wrote in
> news:20011108133205...@mb-fc.aol.com:
>
> ><< Does that mean your stepmother is a good cook and does the laundry
> > without complaint? >>
> >
> > Have you heard the one about the man who married a woman who was
> > half-French and half-Chinese?
> >
> > Ancona The Stereotypist
>
> Do tell -- I have a psycho-bitch-ex-girlfriend-from-hell who was part
> French and part Chinese, so this sounds like more ammunition!
>
I'm gonna guess that she starched your underwear and overcooked the
linguini.
Ron Obvious
Ancona21
French and part Chinese >>
Did you ever come home to find that she had eaten the laundry?
Ancona
Matthew B. Tepper
md.aol.com:
That would have been just about normal, compared to what she *did* do.
Matthew B. Tepper
@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net:
No, she used to leave the following phrase on the telephone message pad,
beautifully calligraphed: "Gli enigma sono tre, la morte e una!" Really.
Unfortunately she had a terrible allergy. She was allergic to work.
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
A Tsar Is Born wrote:
>
> I must protest against the EXTREME inaccuracy of this discussion, at least
> as propounded by Ms. Gamble.
>
> Charles is indeed very handsome, very charming, very young and a damn good
> singer to boot. (Lovely liquid line, flawless enunciation.)
>
> But tall he ain't, by any reasonable definition (and this has been noted in
> reviews of his performances with tall sopranos).
Well. "tall" is relative, I suppose, and opera singers these
days seem to be giants. Charles is certainly pretty close
to six feet, judging by the fact that I'm 5'7", and he was a
good bit taller than I, when I stood next to him - if I have
to look up to a man's face, I consider him tall - even if I
don't have to tilt my head back to see him. (Of course he
COULD have been wearing "elevators", but I doubt it.)
Jose Van Dam, also, is not exactly short by normal standards
(according to an article I read, he's "not quite six feet")
but in the cast photo in the booklet for the Solti
"Meistersinger" recording, they have him in the middle, with
the rest of the singers rising like stair-steps across the
stage to either side of him. ....And the Paris "Don Carlos"
booklet shows his head about even with Hampson's shoulder.
Of course, someone told me Hampson is aroung 6'7", and in
the Meistersinger cast, neither Matilla nor Hepner are
exactly dwarves, either. Based on the photographic
evidence, when I met him for the first time I expected Van
Dam to be short, but he also is taller than I.
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
"Matthew B. Tepper" wrote:
>
>
> No, she used to leave the following phrase on the telephone message pad,
> beautifully calligraphed: "Gli enigma sono tre, la morte e una!" Really.
Why? (And shouldn't that be "enigme" in the plural?)
> Unfortunately she had a terrible allergy. She was allergic to work.
Sounds like my ex-husband!
Mark D Lew
(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Why? (And shouldn't that be "enigme" in the plural?)
"Enigmi", actually. The "gli" should have tipped you off that it's a
masculine noun, in spite of ending in "-a". Greek nouns ending in "-ma"
are always[*] masculine in Italian.
"Enigma" comes to both Italian and English from Greek, along with "stigma",
"dogma", "magma", and "zeugma", all of which are masculine nouns in
Italian, spelled the same as in English, but pluralized differently. The
proper Greek plural for all of these ends in "-mata", a habit partially
adopted in English but thankfully giving way to the more usual "-mas"
ending. In Italian they all pluralize in "-mi"
All of this applies equally to "aroma", "dilemma", "diploma", "melisma",
"miasma", and probably others that don't come immediately to mind.
(Anglophones who enjoy saying "libretti" instead of "librettos" may want to
try impressing their friends with discussions of "melismata".)
mdl
[*] I should know better than to say "always", but if there's an exception
I sure can't think of it. If someone else can find one, I'll consider that
well worth being proven wrong.
Ron Obvious
"Mark D Lew" <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote
> All of this applies equally to "aroma", "dilemma", "diploma", "melisma",
> "miasma", and probably others that don't come immediately to mind.
> (Anglophones who enjoy saying "libretti" instead of "librettos" may want
to
> try impressing their friends with discussions of "melismata".)
>
> mdl>
If I tried impressing MY friends with discussions of "melismata" they would
tie me to the railroad tracks and have a taigate party while waiting for the
MainLine Express from Altoona to zoom through. And it would be exactly what
I deserved.
Ron Obvious
daniel f. tritter
Ron Obvious wrote:
thousands are asking where they can line up for tickets, money no object.
jeez, altoona, another great music center!
dft
Valfer
Caballe, Tebaldi and Horne. Reach your own conclusions...
Valfer
"Tom Hamilton" <fro...@mnsi.net> wrote in message
news:9seot...@enews1.newsguy.com...
Valfer
nobody wanted to discuss greek food right after breakfast.
Valfer
"Mark D Lew" <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net...
Ron Obvious
"daniel f. tritter" <dtri...@bway.net> wrote
> thousands are asking where they can line up for tickets, money no object.
> jeez, altoona, another great music center!
>
>
> dft
>
If I've told you once I've told you at least a million times not to
exaggerate.
Ron Obvious
Matthew B. Tepper
And avoid clichés like the plague.
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
Mark D Lew wrote:
>
> In article <3BEB87D2...@earthlink.net>, "Evelyn Vogt Gamble
> (Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Why? (And shouldn't that be "enigme" in the plural?)
>
> "Enigmi", actually.
I stand corrected! (It's been a long time since I took
Italian at nightschool, and when you sing it, you don't have
to worry about the grammar - the words are there already.)
But "gli" does take the plural of the noun - the point I was
making to Matthew.
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
Valfer wrote:
>
> I've heard the same nonsense said about Ponselle, Garden, Galli-Curci,
> Caballe, Tebaldi and Horne. Reach your own conclusions...
>
I first heard it (when young) from a bass I was dating. (I
already reached MY conclusions, considering the source and
the circumstances.) (:=D}
REG
I'm saving that for Charles.
"Valfer" <Val...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:_4SG7.16$tg4....@eagle.america.net...
> I've heard the same nonsense said about Ponselle, Garden, Galli-Curci,
> Caballe, Tebaldi and Horne. Reach your own conclusions...
>
> Valfer
>
> "Tom Hamilton" <fro...@mnsi.net> wrote in message
> news:9seot...@enews1.newsguy.com...
> > I find this subject most informative and enjoyable.
> > Maybe someone out there can verify this operatic urban legend.
> > It was stated by a former Met Bass-baritone who coached me for a while
> that
> > Gladys Swarthout sang her best after being 'Serviced' back stage before
> her
> > entrance?
> >
> > Just curious..
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyş@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:9scv9...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> > > "Ron Obvious" <chryst...@infi.net> wrote in
> > > news:9sc4lm$vad$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyş@earthlink.net> wrote in message
Mark D Lew
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> And avoid clichés like the plague.
And don't mix metaphors in the middle of the stream.
mdl
A Tsar Is Born
> Well. "tall" is relative, I suppose, and opera singers these
> days seem to be giants. Charles is certainly pretty close
> to six feet, judging by the fact that I'm 5'7", and he was a
> good bit taller than I, when I stood next to him - if I have
> to look up to a man's face, I consider him tall - even if I
> don't have to tilt my head back to see him. (Of course he
> COULD have been wearing "elevators", but I doubt it.)
I've stood next to him often, and he appears to be shorter than I am.
I'm also 5'7 and don't wear elevators.
Of course he COULD have been stooping, but Rigoletto is hardly in the tenor
fach.
And the reviews of his Don Ottavio in the summer of '00 made much of the
fact that Donna Anna was head and shoulders taller than he.
Jean Coeur de Lapin
atsar...@hotmail.com
A Tsar Is Born
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net...
"stigma",
> "dogma", "magma", and "zeugma", all of which are masculine nouns in
> Italian, spelled the same as in English, but pluralized differently. The
> proper Greek plural for all of these ends in "-mata", a habit partially
> adopted in English but thankfully giving way to the more usual "-mas"
> ending. In Italian they all pluralize in "-mi"
>
> All of this applies equally to "aroma", "dilemma", "diploma", "melisma",
> "miasma", and probably others that don't come immediately to mind.
> (Anglophones who enjoy saying "libretti" instead of "librettos" may want
to
> try impressing their friends with discussions of "melismata".)
Would the plural of "smegma" be "smegmata" ?
Just curious.
Hans Lick
atsar...@hotmail.com
Mark D Lew
<ench...@herodotus.com> wrote:
> Would the plural of "smegma" be "smegmata" ?
For the Greek root word, yes. I'm not convinced that it takes a plural at
all in English. OSPD [*] says "smegmas", but I'm not sure I trust that.
All my other English dictionaries say nothing on the matter. In Italian,
smegma is yet another masculine noun, and Zingarelli lists "smegmi" as the
plural.
Merriam-Webster tells me that the Greek word means "detergent, soap".
(Probably would deter a lady, too....)
mdl
[*] Official Scrabble Player's Dictionary, the only dictionary I know that
explicitly lists all plurals.
Leonard Tillman
-------------
Incredible, Anckkee, a laff-riot!
- Got any anti-Hebrew one or two-liners, as well?
(Not to neglect *us*, I mean.)
LT
A Tsar Is Born
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net...
> "Enigma" comes to both Italian and English from Greek, along with
"stigma",
> "dogma", "magma", and "zeugma", all of which are masculine nouns in
> Italian, spelled the same as in English, but pluralized differently. The
> proper Greek plural for all of these ends in "-mata", a habit partially
> adopted in English but thankfully giving way to the more usual "-mas"
> ending. In Italian they all pluralize in "-mi"
>
> All of this applies equally to "aroma", "dilemma", "diploma", "melisma",
> "miasma", and probably others that don't come immediately to mind.
> (Anglophones who enjoy saying "libretti" instead of "librettos" may want
to
> try impressing their friends with discussions of "melismata".)
I think the rule is, if a word came into English before pedants started
writing dictionaries, it IS de facto (and de jure) English and takes an
English plural: aromas, dilemmas, diplomas, dogmas, perhaps even stigmas and
miasmas (a favorite, at least in the singular, with E.A. Poe). "Magma",
"zeugma", "smegma" and "melisma" were artificially (i.e. not common speech
but by publication) added to English, and therefore retained their Greek
plurals.
Of course, where does that leave us about datum (sing. of data) or the very
recent media (sing. of medium), out of Latin....?
Hans Lick
atsar...@hotmail.com
Mark D Lew
<ench...@herodotus.com> wrote:
> I think the rule is, if a word came into English before pedants started
> writing dictionaries, it IS de facto (and de jure) English and takes an
> English plural: aromas, dilemmas, diplomas, dogmas, perhaps even stigmas and
> miasmas (a favorite, at least in the singular, with E.A. Poe). "Magma",
> "zeugma", "smegma" and "melisma" were artificially (i.e. not common speech
> but by publication) added to English, and therefore retained their Greek
> plurals.
Well, one problem with your theory is that it doesn't accord with the
facts. Your two lists have no correlation with frequency of taking the
-mata plural form nor date of entry into the English language.
I assume by "pedants writing dictionaries" you mean Samuel Johnson's
(1746). One word in your first list (aroma) date after that time, and two
words on your second list (magma, zeugma) date well before. Of course, for
many reasons, a word's entry into the English language is not so simple as
the date shown in the dictionary. Still, I think your separation from older
and newer words is suspect.
With regard to the plurals you are even more off. From your first list,
only one word (melisma) shows the Greek plural. On your first list, three
words (dogma, stigma, miasma) show the -mata plural as one of two
acceptable. Diploma also shows diplomata as an alternate plural when used
in the older sense of an official state document (such as might be carried
by a diplomat). Dilemma pluralizes to dilemmas, but lemma shows lemmata as
an alternate plural.
I know of no prescriptive rule for use of such plurals. A descriptive
rule, I think, would be closer to the opposite of what you say. The word
retains the -mata plura if upon entry into the language it was used
primarily by speakers who know Greek, and if it has a continued tradition
of use in a community sufficiently conservative to maintain the unusual
plural form against pressure to conform to a more familiar English form.
In the past two centuries, Greek has gradually become less familiar among
educated Anglophones. Thus, recent words (eg, aroma, smegma) never really
held the -mata form. Of the older words, the perseverance of the -mata
form seems correlated with use of the word in elite and old-fashioned
communities. This is particularly noticeable with regard to contexts in
which the -mata form is used. Stigmata is the standard plural when
referring to marks on the body, especially in the context of Christ, but
gives way to stigmas when referring to a metaphoric mark of shame. Dogma
and diploma tend to take the Greek plural only when used as technical
terms, and adopt the ordinary -s plural in more general contexts.
My descriptive rule fails to account for zeugma or melisma. Zeugma is a
technical term used only by educated specialists, and thus might be
expected to keep the -mata form. Here I would propose that the word was
simply too infrequently used, even among experts, to maintain the form.
Melisma is new enough that it shouldn't have been learned with a Greek
plural. Here I believe that Merriam Webster is just wrong. My experience
is that people who talk about more than one melisma really do say
"melismas" and not "melismata". To whatever extent the latter persists at
all, I believe it is due to intentionally elitist usage.
> Of course, where does that leave us about datum (sing. of data) or the very
> recent media (sing. of medium), out of Latin....?
Datum is no problem. Data is rarely discussed in the singular, and those
who do discuss it typically know to say "datum". This is in the same
category as graffiti/graffito.
Media, as far as I'm concerned, has bifurcated sufficiently that it can be
thought to have two separate definitions.For a route, substance or person
through which something travels, the singular "medium" is a perfectly
ordinary word, and "media" is its usual plural. For the organs of the
communications industry, "media" is simply a collective noun. In this
latter sense, the word is gradually losing the connection with its original
singular. In other words, it is traveling the same path recently completed
by agendum/agenda. And like agenda, media is starting to see usage of a
newly invented plural created by adding an s.
mdl
John Lynch
Mark D Lew wrote:
> And like agenda, media is starting to see usage of a
> newly invented plural created by adding an s.
The usage you describe in your last sentence, above, was called "creative
illiteracy" by Thomas H. Middleton.
JRL
Mark D Lew
[answering me]
Another stick-in-the-mud pedant, no doubt. Does he object to the word
"agendas"? Does he object to the word "pea"?
mdl the creative illiterate
John Lynch
Mark D Lew wrote:
Haven't the foggiest. I know him only as the person who continued the
Double-Crostic puzzles that used to appear in Harpers and the old Saturday Review
of Literature. He retired from that some years ago and I don't know if he is still
among the quick. He also wrote books similar to Willard Espy's on word play and
neologisms. He railed against people who protest that English is a living language
as an excuse for mistaking "flaunt" for "flout," "parameter" for "perimeter,"
"flounder" for "founder"--words that sound like the word they think they want to
use. And against people who pronounce "route" as "rout."
JRL, the epithetless