Faust Fall From Grace
OmbraRecds
last few decades. Is it the lack of singers, or a change in tastes among
audiences, or the fact that opera has become a director-driven art form of
late. These rather perverse individuals seem to take delight in skewing the
grea composers' intentions. I saw a unbelievably ugly final scene from Otello,
in which an obese Desdemona expired on what looked like a motel bed in a prison
cell, with not one visual clue that this was glorious Venice.
PCB
J.Venning
news:20030817133847...@mb-m06.aol.com...
> .....I saw a unbelievably ugly final scene from Otello,
> in which an obese Desdemona expired on what looked like a motel bed in a
prison
> cell, with not one visual clue that this was glorious Venice.
> PCB
You obviously missed the thread a little while back, when we discussed
the Spanish stage director's (Calixto) production of Verdi's "Ballo in
Maschera", which was also put on here in Copenhagen, where the curtained
went up to reveal 12 men sitting on toilet seats. Use your imagination for
the rest of the opera, when I say that everything went downhill from there
on.
Not every opera chief has the desire to maintain what has always been the
tradition in staging - for better or worse - and what with lack of funds and
talents prevailing in the opera scene, we are likely to have to endure such
"experiments" into another era - an era of which I am personally not fond,
but is probably necessary in the evolution of the Theatre.
J.
Andante teneramente
I started listening to a recording but didn't like the opera at all.
I think I gave up after the first CD.
As far as I am concerned, it must be a change of taste.
Regards
P.S.: Pardon my nit-picking: Desdemona dies in Cyprus.
stephenmead
in the
> last few decades. Is it the lack of singers, or a change in tastes among
> audiences, or the fact that opera has become a director-driven art form of
> late.
I don't think Gounod's Faust ever fell from grace in France where it has
always been a staple of the repertory and a sort of national landmark. But
in Anglo-Saxon countries, the opera did go from being one of the most
often-perfomed to a comparitive rarity, and I think that it just went out of
fashion. It was considered very poor tasted indeed in England to admit to a
liking for Gounod's music until quite recently. However I do remember a
superb perfomance at Covent Garden in the 80's with Alfredo Kraus, Valerie
Masterson and Evgeny Nesterenko and there will be a new production at the
Royal Opera next season with Alagna/Gheorghiu/Bryn Terfel. An excellent
recording was made in 91 with Richard Leech/Cheryl Studer/ Jose van Dam,
with the chorus of the French army joining in for the soldier's chorus.
comes...@hotmail.com
grow weary of. Part of the reason is the sticky, Sunday School morality
tale. Part, for me. is the sentimental music which clothes it. Too, I
think the music is a bit too accessible for it's own good. Finally, here
just seems to me to be something enervating and tiring in Gounod's
melodies here (Romeo is much better, imo.) I can occasionally enjoy part
of the Garden scene, but that's about it.
I'm afraid this time, I'm in agreement with Wagner's assessment of
Faust: "The pretty embroidery of a charming little girl."
~ Roger
David Melnick
Still unjaded 54 years after first seeing it,
Dav,
loving Benvenuto C on the BBC
OmbraRecds
>
>Still unjaded 54 years after first seeing it,
So do I. The "Golden Calf" can be very exciting with a vigorous baritone, and
the great waltz is blood pumping.
PCB
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
OmbraRecds wrote:
>
> Why do you suppose Charles-Francois Gounod's Faust has fallen from grace in the
> last few decades. Is it the lack of singers, or a change in tastes among
> audiences, or the fact that opera has become a director-driven art form of
> late.
"Fall from grace"? What planet do you live on? It seems to remain part
of the standard repertoire most places I have occasion to check. (Often
with "creative" stagings I could happily do without, but there seem no
dearth of performances, world-wide.)
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
FYI, a check of "performances" on Operabase shows it scheduled for the
following cities, between Jan 1, 2003 and July, 2004 (and that's not
counting single performances in places I never heard of):
Rome
Paris (Bastille)
Madrid
Sacramento (CA)
New York (Met)
Torino
Cape Town
Salt Lake City
Chicago
Houston (Heights)
Berlin
London
That doesn't sound much like a "neglected" opera, does it?
Richard Loeb
that it is not held as nearly as high repute as it was around the turn of
the century, and is not performed nearly as often. The old MET wasn't called
the "Faustspielhaus" around the 1900s for no reason. I'm not sure what the
reason is, the lack of excellent French singers compared to the great French
tradition of the past, perhaps it is the rather candy cotten coated way it
handles the great myth. I like to hear it now and again and enjoy its
tunefullness and craftmanship while realizing at the same time its serious
faults. Richard Loeb
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3F3FE4D5...@earthlink.net...
Daniel Kessler
through the indexes of British Opera over the past 50 years. Back in the 50's
and 60's, one can find up to 20 productions per year of the work. However, by
the mid 90's there are only a mere handful each season.
With the passage of time, I've come to like his "Romeo" far better than his
"Faust," which strikes me as a rather creaky piece, full of pieties and a rather
black and white view of the world.
I think the piece is out of sync with the world we inhabit today. Of course,
the lack of a good French tenor does hamper works like "Faust."
With the passage of time, my favorite "Faust" opera today is that of Busoni,
("Dr. Faust") which I believe comes closer to the spirit of the source.
NBPalmer1
>through the indexes of British Opera over the past 50 years. Back in the
>50's
>and 60's, one can find up to 20 productions per year of the work. However,
>by
>the mid 90's there are only a mere handful each season.
This is most certainly true, having begun my opera-going in the '50's. However
don't overlook the smaller German houses, where it is still quite frequently
performed under the title "Marguerite".
Regards, NICK/London
Sergio H. da Silva
in the past in the Italian translation.
Gounod is all finesse and nowadays the world is too rude ....
"OmbraRecds" <ombra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030817133847...@mb-m06.aol.com...
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:3F400151...@pop.cybernex.net:
> The popularity of Gounod's "Faust" has definitely dropped off. I just
> checked through the indexes of British Opera over the past 50 years.
> Back in the 50's and 60's, one can find up to 20 productions per year of
> the work. However, by the mid 90's there are only a mere handful each
> season.
>
> With the passage of time, I've come to like his "Romeo" far better than
> his "Faust," which strikes me as a rather creaky piece, full of pieties
> and a rather black and white view of the world.
>
> I think the piece is out of sync with the world we inhabit today. Of
> course, the lack of a good French tenor does hamper works like "Faust."
>
> With the passage of time, my favorite "Faust" opera today is that of
> Busoni, ("Dr. Faust") which I believe comes closer to the spirit of the
> source.
How do you feel about the Mahler Symphony #8, of which the longer second
movement is based on Goethe's Part II?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Ancona21
the
last few decades. Is it the lack of singers, or a change in tastes among
audiences, or the fact that opera has become a director-driven art form of
late. >>
It's a crappy opera. Simple as that.
Ancona
OmbraRecds
Luckily, not the same planet you do, dear. Now stay calm, Dr. Smith will be
right back with Robbie.
June Lockhart
Tom Kaufman
>always been a staple of the repertory and a sort of national landmark. But
>in Anglo-Saxon countries, the opera did go from being one of the most
>often-perfomed to a comparitive rarity, and I think that it just went out of
>fashion. It was considered very poor tasted indeed in England to admit to a
>liking for Gounod's music until quite recently. However I do remember a
>superb perfomance at Covent Garden in the 80's with Alfredo Kraus, Valerie
>Masterson and Evgeny Nesterenko and there will be a new production at the
>Royal Opera next season with Alagna/Gheorghiu/Bryn Terfel. An excellent
>recording was made in 91 with Richard Leech/Cheryl Studer/ Jose van Dam,
>with the chorus of the French army joining in for the soldier's chorus.
>
>
anything by wagner by 10 miles.
If this be poor taste, so be it. I am proud of my "poor taste"
By the way, I saw Roger did not like it. Big surprise--he is a Wagnerite.
Wagner thought Faust was garbage--another reason for my loving it.
Don Tommaso
Tom Kaufman
URL of web site:
<A href="www.geocities.com/Vienna/8917/index.html">Tom Kaufman's site</A>
Andre Storfer
I particularly enjoy the TRD late '30s recording, in which Margaret Dumont
plays her namesake.
[In the english translation]
Also, Ms. Dumont made nice TV's.
AES
"Ancona21" <anco...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030817201347...@mb-m12.aol.com...
Matthew燘. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:20030817202118...@mb-m01.aol.com:
While the robot best known as "Robbie" from "Forbidden Planet" did make a
couple of guest appearances on "Lost in Space," the one which was a regular
on the show was simply called "The Robot."
A Tsar Is Born
> in which an obese Desdemona expired on what looked like a motel bed in a
prison
> cell, with not one visual clue that this was glorious Venice.
Possibly because, if this was Verdi's opera, none of it takes place in
Venice.
Hans Lick
OmbraRecds
>
>Possibly because, if this was Verdi's opera, none of it takes place in
>Venice.
>
>Hans Lick
Cyprus was a Venetian stronghold, and should have had some visual trappings
indicative of its' conquerors.
PCB
stephenmead
"Tom Kaufman" <tomk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030817203555...@mb-m16.aol.com...
both Gounod *and* Wagner, and I do!
And having seen Mr and Mrs Alagna in Romeo et Juliette at Covent Garden,
personally I can't wait to see them in Faust!
Daniel Kessler
opinions....
Other than Mahler's songs, which, for me, contain the best kernels of musical
thought of the master, I don't much care for Mahler, particularly his
symphonies... find them terribly overblown and pretentious and even
lugubrious, often ridiculous or feignedly so. EEKKK! I know I will have
stirred the wrath of the multitides for uttering such thoughts.
If I want to wallow in sorrow, feel sorry for myself -- give me "Kat'a
Kabanova." But with Janacek, I feel clensed, rather than sorry for myself.
Janacek gets to the point and doesn't linger. Mahler stretches it out to
unbearable and unnecessary lengths, I think. Life moves on. Viva la
difference! I used to think I saw depth in Mahler's symphonies, now they
strike me as shallow and wallowing in one's sorrow or his sorrow.
Please note that Janacek never wrote any symphonies and Mahler never wrote any
operas. And what could be more down and out than Janacek's "From the House of
the Dead?" But, the premise in that piece "in every being, a spark of the
devine." And what a wonderful thought that is! Very uplifting after
realizing that nearly every character in that opera is "damaged goods."
Random Harvest
"NBPalmer1" <nbpa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030817183557...@mb-m28.aol.com...
Close, but I think the German title is Margarete. I'm not usually a
nitpicker, but searchers might have better luck with Margarete.
Rand
A Tsar Is Born
Your evidence for the existence of Cypriot Venetian glories?
Nothing there could or should possibly make an audience imagine the story
was set in Venice.
Only slightly less ludicrous than the Paris Opera staging that set it "in
the Arab culture of the island," a fantasy of the producer -- the culture of
the island having been at that time entirely Greek with the gloss of a
French ruling class.
Hans Lick
Leonard Tillman
> with Robbie.
" Ohh, The pain....the pain..."
L."Doc Zacky" T
Leonard Tillman
Indeed.
As crappy as Aida, La Boheme, Carmen, Don Giovanni, I Puritani, La Forza
del Destino, et al. - But it's in good company.
> Simple as that.
Simple as this: Managerial and directorial whims. Unhappily, --
crappily consequential.
Recommended to anti-Gallic ears:
The uniquely heroic Faust of a certain Italian superstar......goes by
the name of Corelli.
LT
OmbraRecds
>Nothing there could or should possibly make an audience imagine the story
>was set in Venice.
A recent documentary on Venice that indicated the Venetian's had left their
mark on the island's style during their time there. I have never been there,
nor remember even reading anything about the look of the place. Thank you for
the information.
I will now do some research on the history of Cyprus. Should make fine summer
reading.
Regards,
Patrick
Matthew燘. Tepper
> I know I'm going to offend many by saying this, but we all have our
> opinions....
>
> Other than Mahler's songs, which, for me, contain the best kernels of
> musical thought of the master, I don't much care for Mahler,
> particularly his symphonies... find them terribly overblown and
> pretentious and even lugubrious, often ridiculous or feignedly so.
> EEKKK! I know I will have stirred the wrath of the multitides for
> uttering such thoughts.
>
> If I want to wallow in sorrow, feel sorry for myself -- give me "Kat'a
> Kabanova." But with Janacek, I feel clensed, rather than sorry for
> myself. Janacek gets to the point and doesn't linger. Mahler stretches
> it out to unbearable and unnecessary lengths, I think. Life moves on.
> Viva la difference! I used to think I saw depth in Mahler's
> symphonies, now they strike me as shallow and wallowing in one's sorrow
> or his sorrow.
>
> Please note that Janacek never wrote any symphonies and Mahler never
> wrote any operas. And what could be more down and out than Janacek's
> "From the House of the Dead?" But, the premise in that piece "in every
> being, a spark of the devine." And what a wonderful thought that is!
> Very uplifting after realizing that nearly every character in that opera
> is "damaged goods."
I hear you -- I have the Mackerras recording of _From the House of the
Dead_ nearby on my to-be-listened-to-soon list. (And yesterday at least I
listened to the fillers, "Mladi" and "Rikadla" while reading the plot
synopsis of the opera.)
Leonard Tillman
falling Fausts.
L "pigeons are bad enough" T
Tom Kaufman
>> By the way, I saw Roger did not like it. Big surprise--he is a Wagnerite.
>> Wagner thought Faust was garbage--another reason for my loving it.
>>
>> Don Tommaso
To which Steve correctly replied:
>>
>Hi - there isn't any rule written down anywhere that says you can't enjoy
>both Gounod *and* Wagner, and I do!
>And having seen Mr and Mrs Alagna in Romeo et Juliette at Covent Garden,
>personally I can't wait to see them in Faust!
I may have been wrong in describing Roger as a Wagnerite--just an impression,
and if I gave the impression that I was using Wagnerite as a pejorative, that
was also wrong. It is no more a pejorative than it would be to call me an
obsucre 19th century opera-ite :-) :-).
we all have our likes and dislikes, and are entitled to them.
However, I would opine that devoted Wagnerites are more likely to pay attention
to the """master's""" writings than others, and that relatively few of us love
both Wagner and Meyerbeer equally. I love the latter, and can take the former
in limited doses. Gounod is no Meyerbeer (for both good and bad), but is
strongly influenced by him--consider the church scene, or the brilliant
soldier's chorus.
Be that as it may,
cheers for the individuality of taste in opera
Tom
Pat Finley
> Why do you suppose Charles-Francois Gounod's Faust has fallen from grace in the
> last few decades.
>
When I first started listening to opera about 12-15 years ago, Faust
was among the last of the 'famous'warhorses to make an appearance on
one of the three LA stations that presented complete operas on a
weekly basis (those were the days!)
By the time I first heard it, I had read about its history, how it had
been probably the most popular opera in the world in the last third of
the nineteenth century, and how it had fallen from favor (outside of
France) by the end of the Great War, if not earlier.
When I finally did hear it on the radio (I think Alfredo Kraus was the
first Faust I heard)I loved it and listened to it a lot for a year of
two. But I soon tired of it in a way that I've tired of no other
opera.
I wrote once here, (and I remember that G/P Dave took issue with me)
that the beauties of Faust were all on the surface; it's a lovely
surface, but still just a surface. It seems to me extremely
accessible music that one "gets" immediately, but which one is likely
to tire of quickly, because there isn't much going on beneath the
surface. Something like the difference between a 'pretty' still life
by a talented amateur, and one by, say, Cezanne.
Another thing that comes into play for some people, I suspect, is that
Gounod's "Faust" is a pale re-working of Goethe's masterpiece; it
tells the story in a superficial way, but passes over most of the deep
questions the philosopher-poet poses.** The Germans don't even
like to hear it referred to it as "Faust".
** In much the same way that "Man of La Mancha", a nice enough
musical, with a couple of great numbers, fails to capture the spirit
of "Don Quixote", and the spirit and depth of its principal
characters (at least to me).
That said, the final trio of Faust remains, for me, one of the most
stirring moments in all of opera. It is its 'sauving' grace.
Pat
Andre Storfer
news:ce68920e.03081...@posting.google.com...
> Another thing that comes into play for some > > people, I suspect, is that
Gounod's "Faust" is a > pale re-working of Goethe's masterpiece; it
> tells the story in a superficial way, but passes > over most of the >deep
questions the philosopher-poet poses.
Did I go to the Opera to do Philosophy 101, or to enjoy the music, although
I realize among the feinshmeckers at rmo, enjoying music for its own sake is
declasse.
> The Germans don't even like to hear it referred to it as "Faust". <
That's always been one of my priorities, pleasing germans in their likes and
dislikes. What did they want to call it, "Mephistopheles and his
Panzer-Faust?" Yes, I know they prefer calling it after a supporting
soprano.......no cheers ! !
> Pat
AES
GRNDPADAVE
He singled out the Love Duet as superior. I'd say that it is the first really
sensuous Love Duet in all opera.
The opera is a wonderful compendium of styles. Not only do we have two
marvelous bass solos, one of the greatest tenor arias ever, two lovely solos
for the soprano, but we have one of the most rollicking choruses ever.
There is scarcely a dull moment in this opera.
Gounod had a tremendous gift for melody and lavished it unstintingly on this
work.
Mu opinion, of course, but this opera would be in the repertory if we could
find singers of the DiStefano/De los Angeles/Siepi calibre to sing it.
==G/P Dave
Tom Kaufman
>been probably the most popular opera in the world in the last third of
>the nineteenth century, and how it had fallen from favor (outside of
>France) by the end of the Great War, if not earlier.
Whenever I see the words "fallen from favor" I always assume its with the
intellectual elitists. To put it bluntly (will I ever live this down?): what do
they know, except to worship Wagner.
>
>
>I wrote once here, (and I remember that G/P Dave took issue with me)
>that the beauties of Faust were all on the surface; it's a lovely
>surface, but still just a surface. It seems to me extremely
>accessible music that one "gets" immediately, but which one is likely
>to tire of quickly, because there isn't much going on beneath the
>surface. Something like the difference between a 'pretty' still life
>by a talented amateur, and one by, say, Cezanne.
I still love the operas I "got" immediately 50 years ago, and still refuse to
give the inaccesible ones another chance. It's my conviction that it's the
composer's job to make his operas accessible--if he refuses, he knows where he
can go.
>
>Another thing that comes into play for some people, I suspect, is that
>Gounod's "Faust" is a pale re-working of Goethe's masterpiece; it
>tells the story in a superficial way, but passes over most of the deep
>questions the philosopher-poet poses.**
Well, it's an opera--not a lesson in philosophy.
The Germans don't even
>like to hear it referred to it as "Faust".
That breaks my heart.
>
>
>That said, the final trio of Faust remains, for me, one of the most
>stirring moments in all of opera. It is its 'sauving' grace.
Funny, it's the one piece I am most likely to skip. Could it be because I am
not a Christian, so the religion fails to move me?
My favorite--perhaps my favorite chorus in all opera is, of course, the
soldier's chorus.
Cheers
Tom
>
>Pat
Leonard Tillman
>Berlioz, not a forgiving critic, found much to
> praise in Gounod's FAUST.
Berlioz's own version, along with Gounod's and Boito's (Mefistofele),
remain, musically, the most appealing and popular.
>He singled out the Love Duet as superior. I'd
> say that it is the first really sensuous Love
> Duet in all opera.
>The opera is a wonderful compendium of
> styles. Not only do we have two marvelous
> bass solos, one of the greatest tenor arias
> ever, two lovely solos for the soprano, but we
> have one of the most rollicking choruses ever.
The baritone's aria, too, is among the most impressive in the
repertory.
>There is scarcely a dull moment in this opera.
>Gounod had a tremendous gift for melody and
> lavished it unstintingly on this work.
I find Faust his greatest work, with Romeo and Juliette a close
second.
>My opinion, of course, but this opera would be
> in the repertory if we could find singers of the
> DiStefano/De los Angeles/Siepi calibre to sing
> it.
Even as performed by a majority of lesser soloists of the present,
this opera has been done very well. Fortunately, it hasn't vanished.
Its presentations are simply less frequent than we, its fans, would
prefer.
And luckily, we have our recordings, both live and studio
performances, to satisfy our yearnings, though video versions are few.
>==G/P Dave
Best,
LT
"The bridges you cross before you come to them, are over rivers that
aren't there."
stephenmead
relatively few of us love
> both Wagner and Meyerbeer equally. I love the latter, and can take the
former
> in limited doses. Gounod is no Meyerbeer (for both good and bad), but is
> strongly influenced by him--consider the church scene, or the brilliant
> soldier's chorus.
<snip>
Now here's a composer who really has fallen from grace ( she must have
really slippery fingers.....) Here again I would attribute that to changing
fashion as Meyerbeer's operas were also among the most popular in the world
until the First World War. Again as with Gounod, it became a mark of the
musical connoiseur to express disdain for Meyerbeer as all effect and no
substance, a lot of grand opera flummery. But I for one greatly regret that
one virtually never sees or hears Les Hugenots, Le Prophet, Robert le Diable
or L'Africaine. OK, maybe they are not the greatest music ever written, but
you don't have to listen only to the most profound masterpieces all the time
do you? When I have heard or seen Meyerbeer's operas I have enjoyed them
tremendously. And I love Wagner too but I guess I am just an opera junkie, I
seem to like 'em all..
Andante teneramente
--snip--
> Another thing that comes into play for some people, I suspect, is that
> Gounod's "Faust" is a pale re-working of Goethe's masterpiece; it
> tells the story in a superficial way, but passes over most of the deep
> questions the philosopher-poet poses.** The Germans don't even
> like to hear it referred to it as "Faust".
--snip--
But we *love* the Ave Maria. Isn't that something???
Regards
Dan
> >That said, the final trio of Faust remains, for me, one of the most
> >stirring moments in all of opera. It is its 'sauving' grace.
>
> Funny, it's the one piece I am most likely to skip. Could it be because I
am
> not a Christian, so the religion fails to move me?
>
> My favorite--perhaps my favorite chorus in all opera is, of course, the
> soldier's chorus.
I don't see why being Christian means you will enjoy the trio more than
somebody else, or why the trio will fail to move you because you are not
Christian. I think, if anything, the music is just gorgeous and can easily
be enjoyed on that level by an unreligious person. The idea of God saving
the oppressed/unhappy, as far as I know, is not a pure Christian belief and
therefore, with that added significance to Marguerite's pleading vocal line,
it can be very moving indeed.
Dan
Commspkmn
<< I don't see why being Christian means you will enjoy the trio more than
somebody else, or why the trio will fail to move you because you are not
Christian. I think, if anything, the music is just gorgeous and can easily
be enjoyed on that level by an unreligious person. The idea of God saving
the oppressed/unhappy, as far as I know, is not a pure Christian belief and
therefore, with that added significance to Marguerite's pleading vocal line,
it can be very moving indeed.
Dan>>
And it's absolutely gorgeous music as well.
Best,
Ken
Leonard Tillman
>That said, the final trio of Faust remains, for
> me, one of the most stirring moments in all of
> opera. It is its 'sauving' grace.
-------------------
>Funny, it's the one piece I am most likely to
> skip. Could it be because I am not a
> Christian, so the religion fails to move me?
>My favorite--perhaps my favorite chorus in all
> opera is, of course, the soldier's chorus.
----------------------
>I don't see why being Christian means you will
> enjoy the trio more than somebody else, or
> why the trio will fail to move you because you
> are not Christian. I think, if anything, the
> music is just gorgeous and can easily be
> enjoyed on that level by an unreligious
> person. The idea of God saving the
> oppressed/unhappy, as far as I know, is not a
> pure Christian belief and therefore, with that
> added significance to Marguerite's pleading
> vocal line, it can be very moving indeed.
As a non-Christian, I, and several atheists I know, enjoy the trio on
a spiritual level, a few degrees beyond what I consider "emotional",
as the flowing melodic line progresses to its uplifting conclusion -
possibly a universal experience with enthusiasts of this opera, whatever
their religious denomination(s), if any.
As to sheer overall beauty of music, Faust has relatively few peers.
>Dan
Alan Watkins
> we all have our likes and dislikes, and are entitled to them.
>
> However, I would opine that devoted Wagnerites are more likely to pay attention
> to the """master's""" writings than others, and that relatively few of us love
> both Wagner and Meyerbeer equally. I love the latter, and can take the former
> in limited doses. Gounod is no Meyerbeer (for both good and bad), but is
> strongly influenced by him--consider the church scene, or the brilliant
> soldier's chorus.
>
> Be that as it may,
>
> cheers for the individuality of taste in opera
>
> Tom
I'm just an orchestral musician and while I can't say how many people
love both Wagner and Meyerbeer equally, I love both of them for they
wrote great parts for me. As did Gounod, for that matter.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Commspkmn
<< I'm just an orchestral musician and while I can't say how many people
love both Wagner and Meyerbeer equally, I love both of them for they
wrote great parts for me. As did Gounod, for that matter.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins >>
"Just" an orchestral musician?!? That's pretty important in my book.
I really think most people don't sit around playing the Wagner v. Meyerbeer
game. They are far different enough composers that a comparison is of little or
no use.
Better to appreciate what each brought to the operatic stage. And the
contributions of both are considerable.
Best,
Ken
Alan Watkins
Robert le Diable is popular in Prague. I have played for Mr Monteil
quite a number of times over the last three or four years and we also
did Dukas Ariane et Barbe-Bleue both of which I liked immensely.
We got good reviews and full houses for them.
We also did Halevy La Juive for which we got good reviews :):) No one
knew Meyerbeer or Dukas or Halevy so I think we did quite well.
Capa0848
>From: "Andre Storfer" and...@comcast.net
>Date: 08/18/2003 1:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <FDa0b.147917$Oz4.39208@rwcrnsc54>
>> Another thing that comes into play for some > > people, I suspect, is that
>Gounod's "Faust" is a pale re-working of Goethe's masterpiece; it tells the
story in a superficial way, but passes over most of the deep questions the
philosopher-poet poses.
>
>Did I go to the Opera to do Philosophy 101, or to enjoy the music, although
>I realize among the feinshmeckers at rmo, enjoying music for its own sake is
>declasse.
>
I understand what you're saying -- but the whole essence of the story is
'philosophical' in its truest sense -- Faust, as we meet him, is a ' lover of
knowledge' - a philosopher - who is seeking for meaning in his existence.
But Gounod's answer, for the most part, is 'A moi la jeunesse'; certainly youth
and the pursuit of the comely Marguerite is part of the secret of life, but,
for men of your age and mine, surely that's not the whole package.
Is it?
> The Germans don't even like to hear it referred to it as "Faust". <
>
>That's always been one of my priorities, pleasing germans in their likes and
dislikes. " Yes, I know they prefer calling it after a supporting
soprano.......no cheers ! !
Let me put it this way ... Don't you cringe inside just a little when you hear
someone raving about "Aida" the musical?
For all I know, it might be a very nice show --- but it just isn't the
original, is it?
>> Pat
When a man laughs at his troubles he loses a good many friends. They never
forgive him the loss of their prerogative.
H L Mencken
Capa0848
>
>I still love the operas I "got" immediately 50 years ago, and still refuse to
give the inaccesible ones another chance. It's my conviction that it's the
>composer's job to make his operas accessible
Liberace was accessible. Bocelli is accessible.
There's got to be more to it than that.
>
>>That said, the final trio of Faust remains, for me, one of the most stirring
moments in all of opera. It is its 'sauving' grace.
>
>Funny, it's the one piece I am most likely to skip. Could it be because I am
not a Christian, so the religion fails to move me?
>
>My favorite--perhaps my favorite chorus in all opera is, of course, the
soldier's chorus.
I think that was the first number to wear on me...
Ah well. To each his own.
>Cheers
>
>Tom
Best,
REG
And then there was the Gong Show.
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5812-3F4...@storefull-2278.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Leonard Tillman
>My favorite TV show of all time, almost.
In its genre, the other leading shows were Star Trek and (when dealing
with intergalactic fantasy) Twilight Zone.
Outer Limits -- not quite their equal.
>And then there was the Gong Show.
One that I never watched. Fortunately so, I'm told. :)
Best,
LT
Andre Storfer
news:20030818225742...@mb-m16.aol.com...
It is! It is! That's the missing ingredient.
The French got it right.
Now, about the wine......................
> > The Germans don't even like to hear it referred to it as "Faust". <
> >
> >That's always been one of my priorities, pleasing germans in their likes
and
> dislikes. " Yes, I know they prefer calling it after a supporting
> soprano.......no cheers ! !
>
> Let me put it this way ... Don't you cringe inside just a little when you
hear
> someone raving about "Aida" the musical?
I cringe at the homespun philosophy pages of "Reader's Digest," but kapsule
kultur has its place......[in dentist's waiting rooms.]
>
> For all I know, it might be a very nice show --- but it just isn't the
> original, is it?
You want Faust as served up by Goethe? Read Goethe. Music with Goethe as a
convenient hook?....I prefer Gounod....
. . . de gustabuses ain't what they used to was. . .
> >> Pat
>
AES
Leonard Tillman
ones) of the Faust legend, which is textually most faithful to Goethe?
Andre Storfer
AES
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:22444-3F4...@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Leonard Tillman
>Me? You're asking me? I think it was Mel
> Brooks' version. AES
In a different league, altogether! The man is a near-deity.
There was also, IIRC, a "Transylvanian Lullaby" in his "Young
Frankenstein" (Pronounced, "Fronkenshteen").
LT
>"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net>
> wrote in message
>news:22444-3F423809-131@storefull-2274.p
Pat Finley
> >By the time I first heard it, I had read about its history, how it had
> >been probably the most popular opera in the world in the last third of
> >the nineteenth century, and how it had fallen from favor (outside of
> >France) by the end of the Great War, if not earlier.
>
> Whenever I see the words "fallen from favor" I always assume its with the
>
> >
> Cheers
>
> Tom
> >
I like Will Rogers' thought -- "We are all ignorant -- only on
different subjects." :-)
Pat
CHSIII
> ones) of the Faust legend, which is textually most faithful to Goethe?
>
Leonard Tillman
ones) of the Faust legend, which is textually most faithful to Goethe? "
>Boito
That would seem to be so.
http://www.web-helper.net/PDMusic/Master-Operas/mefistofele.asp
Faust's salvation is in its way more uplifting than even the more
spectacularly melodic trio concluding Gounod's work.
Good to have both versions, in any case.
David Melnick
century works in the active repertoire. This is
especially apparent in symphony programs, but also in
the opera house.
Already, less Beethoven is heard in symphony halls
than, say, 50 years ago.
We can't help it. Tastes do change.
Won't it be sad for Wagnerians when the Master
falls out of favor due to changing tastes!
There will be a whole world of opera buffs who
say, "Well, I liked Wagner when I was young, but
I've gotten so tired of all those cliches. And
those meaningless orchestral effects! Why bother?
It's odd that he was as popular as he was."
After that there will be a whole generation that
doesn't even hear any Wagner except among the few
devotees who play old recordings and reminisce about
his former sway over the musical public.
A Brute cry will ring out: "Jacob Meyerbeer, thou
art mighty yet!"
Tom Kaufman
>falls out of favor due to changing tastes!
I will laugh my head of--but still can't figure out what he was the master of.
>
>There will be a whole world of opera buffs who
>say, "Well, I liked Wagner when I was young, but
>I've gotten so tired of all those cliches. And
>those meaningless orchestral effects! Why bother?
>It's odd that he was as popular as he was."
That was me, until my tastes matured.
>
>After that there will be a whole generation that
>doesn't even hear any Wagner except among the few
>devotees who play old recordings and reminisce about
>his former sway over the musical public.
>
>A Brute cry will ring out: "Jacob Meyerbeer, thou
>art mighty yet!"
>
That's my motto. Much better than Wagner.
Tom
stephenmead
> >Won't it be sad for Wagnerians when the Master
> >falls out of favor due to changing tastes!
>
> I will laugh my head of--but still can't figure out what he was the master
of.
> >
> >There will be a whole world of opera buffs who
> >say, "Well, I liked Wagner when I was young, but
> >I've gotten so tired of all those cliches. And
> >those meaningless orchestral effects! Why bother?
> >It's odd that he was as popular as he was."
>
> That was me, until my tastes matured.
> >
> >After that there will be a whole generation that
> >doesn't even hear any Wagner except among the few
> >devotees who play old recordings and reminisce about
> >his former sway over the musical public.
> >
> >A Brute cry will ring out: "Jacob Meyerbeer, thou
> >art mighty yet!"
> >
>
> That's my motto. Much better than Wagner.
>
> Tom
> >
> >
year when Opera Rara gave a concert performance, which was being recorded
live, of Meyerbeer' s Italian opera Margarita d'Anjou, which had not been
performed anywhere for more than 100 years. Great cast including Bruce Ford,
terrific fun, splendid music.The CD's will be released later this year, so
look out for it!
Tom Kaufman
>year when Opera Rara gave a concert performance, which was being recorded
>live, of Meyerbeer' s Italian opera Margarita d'Anjou, which had not been
>performed anywhere for more than 100 years. Great cast including Bruce Ford,
>terrific fun, splendid music.The CD's will be released later this year, so
>look out for it!
>
Tom Kaufman
>
>There's got to be more to it than that.
Yep. But you are comparing performers (third rate) to composers. Meyerbeer
being first rate.
Cheers
stephenmead
> >Hello - I was fortunate enough to be at the Royal Festival Hall earlier
this
> >year when Opera Rara gave a concert performance, which was being recorded
> >live, of Meyerbeer' s Italian opera Margarita d'Anjou, which had not been
> >performed anywhere for more than 100 years. Great cast including Bruce
Ford,
> >terrific fun, splendid music.The CD's will be released later this year,
so
> >look out for it!
> >
> My copy (I contributed to the booklet) just arrived. Great.
>
> Tom
>
Well I didn't need to tell you that then did I? I didn't know I was talking
to an authority! I remember what a splendid overture it had and the first
act finale with the banda was partiularly thrilling.
Tom Kaufman
>to an authority! I remember what a splendid overture it had and the first
>act finale with the banda was partiularly thrilling.
>
authority.
But I do contribute to these booklets with some regularity.
Three cheers for Opera Rara.
Alan Watkins
> >Subject: Re: Faust Fall From Grace
> >From: tomk...@aol.com (Tom Kaufman)
>
> >
> >I still love the operas I "got" immediately 50 years ago, and still refuse to
> give the inaccesible ones another chance. It's my conviction that it's the
> >composer's job to make his operas accessible
>
> Liberace was accessible. Bocelli is accessible.
>
> There's got to be more to it than that.
>
>
> >
> >>That said, the final trio of Faust remains, for me, one of the most stirring
> moments in all of opera. It is its 'sauving' grace.
> >
> >Funny, it's the one piece I am most likely to skip. Could it be because I am
> not a Christian, so the religion fails to move me?
> >
> >My favorite--perhaps my favorite chorus in all opera is, of course, the
> soldier's chorus.
>
> I think that was the first number to wear on me...
>
> Ah well. To each his own.
Yes, you have it right....to each his or her own.
Alan Watkins
> Thanks, but my making a slight contribution to the booklet hardly makes me an
> authority.
>
> But I do contribute to these booklets with some regularity.
>
> Three cheers for Opera Rara.
>
explore the potential of the timpani and it's use as a harmonic
instrument rather than a rhythmic instrument and there is an important
solo part for four drums (unusual at the time) in Diable which I have
had the pleasure of playing. There are important timpani parts in
other works he composed.
Whatever people perceive as his musical stature today, I would suggest
that at least he played an important part in creating what is today
called "the modern orchestra".
Tom Kaufman
>> soldier's chorus.
>>
>> I think that was the first number to wear on me...
Many people don't like, or look down on, martial music. I love it.
Tom Kaufman
>explore the potential of the timpani and it's use as a harmonic
>instrument rather than a rhythmic instrument and there is an important
>solo part for four drums (unusual at the time) in Diable which I have
>had the pleasure of playing
As I remember, you are in Prague, one of the few cities that gave Meyerbeer's
Robert during recent years. Is that where you played it?
Wonderful opera--perhaps my favorite single French opera, ahead even of La
juive.
BTW, since you are in Prague, do you know if there wer any recent scholarly
histories of Czech opera houses, with plenty of performance details.
The best I know of are Teuber on Prague, Nejedly on Prague, Pala on Prague
(very rare--have never seen it offered), and Bondi on Brno.
Thanks and cheers
stephenmead
"Alan Watkins" <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:62c8649c.0308...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> Meyerbeer, it is often forgotten, was one of the first composers to
> explore the potential of the timpani and it's use as a harmonic
> instrument rather than a rhythmic instrument and there is an important
> solo part for four drums (unusual at the time) in Diable which I have
> had the pleasure of playing. There are important timpani parts in
> other works he composed.
>
> Whatever people perceive as his musical stature today, I would suggest
> that at least he played an important part in creating what is today
> called "the modern orchestra".
>
> Kind regards,
> Alan M. Watkins
Thank you for that, very interesting. I have never heard all of Robert le
Diable, only parts of it, including the beautiful soprano aria Robert toi
que j'aime which has very striking and effective writing for solo cor
anglais and harp. Meyerbeer's writing for orchestra is often very original
for instance the use of the solo bass clarinet in the "marriage" trio just
before the massacre in the final scene of Hugenots.
Capa0848
>Message-id: <20030822074012...@mb-m11.aol.com>
>
>>> >My favorite--perhaps my favorite chorus in all opera is, of course, the
>>> soldier's chorus.
>>>
>>> I think that was the first number to wear on me...
>
>Many people don't like, or look down on, martial music. I love it.
>
>Tom
I do too, for the most part. Lots of great marches and processions in opera.
I never tire of the Triumphal March in Aida, the finale to Rheingold, the march
in Tannhauser, just to name a few that to come to mind.
Just a few days ago I heard "Stars and Stripes Forever" on the radio. From a
live performance before a Moscow audience. From all the clapping in time and
cheering, you'd have thought you were on the Boston esplanade on the Fourth of
July.
There's something about a good march ...
Pat
Tom Kaufman
>Diable, only parts of it, including the beautiful soprano aria Robert toi
>que j'aime which has very striking and effective writing for solo cor
>anglais and harp. Meyerbeer's writing for orchestra is often very original
>for instance the use of the solo bass clarinet in the "marriage" trio just
>before the massacre in the final scene of Hugenots.
The Dynamic recording of the Martina franca Robert, starring Warren Mok is
absolutely wonderful, especially his Act III duet with Bertram. Other favorite
moments are the Sicilienne in Act I (especially the Escalais recording),
Alice's two solos, the Valse infernale and Nonnes qui reposez in Act III, and
the entire Act IV Robert/Isabelle duet where her solo forms a bridge passage
between the slow and fast portions of the duet. There also is a wonderful trio
for Robert, Bertram and Alice in Act V, which sort of serves as a warm-up by
the composer for the big duet in Huguenots. Finally, there is the Mario aria in
Act II, not given in Prague or Martina Franca, but sung in Berlin and by the
great Merritt at Carnegie hall.
Cheers
Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Thank you for that, very interesting. I have never heard all of Robert le
>Diable, only parts of it, including the beautiful soprano aria Robert toi
>que j'aime which has very striking and effective writing for solo cor
>anglais and harp. Meyerbeer's writing for orchestra is often very original
>for instance the use of the solo bass clarinet in the "marriage" trio just
>before the massacre in the final scene of Hugenots.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Tom Kaufman
>in Tannhauser, just to name a few that to come to mind
With all the great marches by first class Italian composers (Dom Sebastien,
Jone by Petrella, Maria Regina by Pacini, Orazi by Mercadante)--you would name
two by Wagner. :-) :-)
Don Tommaso
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
letters to be typed in
news:20030822112103...@mb-m03.aol.com:
>> the finale to Rheingold, the march
>>in Tannhauser, just to name a few that to come to mind
>
> With all the great marches by first class Italian composers (Dom
> Sebastien, Jone by Petrella, Maria Regina by Pacini, Orazi by
> Mercadante)--you would name two by Wagner. :-) :-)
If you count Meyerbeer as at least Italian-influenced (well, he picked up
that "Giacomo" *somewhere*), I would also nominate the Coronation March
from _Le prophete_.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's Fault!
Alan Watkins
> >Meyerbeer, it is often forgotten, was one of the first composers to
> >explore the potential of the timpani and it's use as a harmonic
> >instrument rather than a rhythmic instrument and there is an important
> >solo part for four drums (unusual at the time) in Diable which I have
> >had the pleasure of playing
>
> As I remember, you are in Prague, one of the few cities that gave Meyerbeer's
> Robert during recent years. Is that where you played it?
>
> Wonderful opera--perhaps my favorite single French opera, ahead even of La
> juive.
>
> BTW, since you are in Prague, do you know if there wer any recent scholarly
> histories of Czech opera houses, with plenty of performance details.
>
> The best I know of are Teuber on Prague, Nejedly on Prague, Pala on Prague
> (very rare--have never seen it offered), and Bondi on Brno.
Yes I played Diable in Prague which is how I came to know the part.
As many know, there is also an important part for timpani in
Meyerbeer's Coronation March which no doubt today is pretty dull and
boring. However, at the TIME he wrote it that was interesting writing
for the instrument.
I thought Diable a wonderful work. Over the next few days I will try
and assist with histories of Czech opera houses by private email.
Personally I love the National Theatre where I have spent much of my
life. It was opened in 1883 to Libuse by Smetana and I had the honour
to be the timpanist in Libuse when the theatre was re-opened after
refurbishment in 1983.
Special moment for Old Chap, remembering who played the part 100 years
before I did. Still the same music!
Pat Finley
> > the finale to Rheingold, the march
> >in Tannhauser, just to name a few that to come to mind
>
> With all the great marches by first class Italian composers (Dom Sebastien,
> Jone by Petrella, Maria Regina by Pacini, Orazi by Mercadante)--you would name
> two by Wagner. :-) :-)
>
Hey, I named one Italian march (Aida) -- that's the limit permitted by
the Wagnerian Chowder and Marching Society by-laws.
There are some fine marches/processionals in Russian operas too. I
once attended a relative's graduation ceremony at a local university.
A couple of thousand graduating seniors were awarded their diplomas,
and the distribution must have taken ninety minutes or more.
And the college band played Rimsky-Korsakoff's stirring "March of the
Nobles" for the whole damn time. At least it was stirring for about
ten minutes ...
But please, Tom, I hope you're not saying that the 'Entrance of the
gods into Valhalla' and the Act II march in Tannhauser are not worth
including in a roster of fine marches?
Pat
Andante teneramente
> gods into Valhalla' and the Act II march in Tannhauser are not worth
> including in a roster of fine marches?
There's something strange aboute the "Entrance of the Gods into
Walhall". It may sound marchlike --- but it is in 3/4 times.
Actually the 3/4 time begins at the rainbow ("Zur Burg fuehrt die
Bruecke") and goes on till the end, with the exception
of a few bars with the sword motiv ("so gruess ich die Burg").
Regards
Capa0848
>From: alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins)
It was opened in 1883 to Libuse by Smetana and I had the honour
>to be the timpanist in Libuse when the theatre was re-opened after
>refurbishment in 1983.
>
>Kind regards,
>Alan M. Watkins
=====================
Amazing that you should mention that. I heard the Festival March (I think
that's what's is usually called in English) from Libuse just this afternoon on
Los Angeles' KMZT.
It had been several years since I first heard the entire opera, which has some
great music, but like most of Tchaikovsky's and Dvorak's lesser-known operas is
hampered by an undistinguished libretto. Or perhaps it were fairer to say a
libretto on a story quite unfamiliar to almost everyone in other countries.
Smetana's 'march', if one can call it that, is quite unlike western European
marches (at least to my amateurish ear). It's quite long and free flowing, and
the rhythm (meter?) is not nearly so pronounced. At times it becomes almost
lyrical; but it's a lovely piece.
Capa0848
>Date: 08/22/2003 4:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bi6acl$m98$01$1...@news.t-online.com>
I tried to use the phrase march/procession a couple of times in this thread so
as to be a little more inclusive; technically it may not be a march, but I find
that solemn and stately cadence, with its intertwining themes, much more
interesting than most of the conventional marches.
Aage Johansen
>>
> Meyerbeer, it is often forgotten, was one of the first composers to
> explore the potential of the timpani and it's use as a harmonic
> instrument rather than a rhythmic instrument and there is an important
> solo part for four drums (unusual at the time) in Diable which I have
> had the pleasure of playing. There are important timpani parts in
> other works he composed.
There's a nice timpani part in Verdi's Macbeth - the opening of the chorus
"Sparve il sol!", Act 2, Scene 2.
--
Aage J.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 08/23/2003 4:23 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <oprucpp9...@news.online.no>
Meyerbeer was probably familiar with Beethoven's Ninth Symphony where the 2nd
movement makes use of kettledrum solos.
==G/P Dave
Richard Loeb
every single moment he can. We all know by this time he doesn't like
Wagner - Believe you me he has told us enough times, but it sounds like some
kind of an obsession. For the rest of us it is just boring - I won't block
him because he can be really interestng to read but thiese incessant and all
too predictable rants against Wagner are just boring. Richard Loeb
"Capa0848" <capa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030822220446...@mb-m22.aol.com...
Andante teneramente
> >Subject: Re: Faust Fall From Grace
> >From: "Andante teneramente" dd...@gmx.de
> >Date: 08/22/2003 4:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <bi6acl$m98$01$1...@news.t-online.com>
> >
> >> But please, Tom, I hope you're not saying that the 'Entrance of the
> >> gods into Valhalla' and the Act II march in Tannhauser are not worth
> >> including in a roster of fine marches?
> >
> >There's something strange aboute the "Entrance of the Gods into
> >Walhall". It may sound marchlike --- but it is in 3/4 times.
> >Actually the 3/4 time begins at the rainbow ("Zur Burg fuehrt die
> >Bruecke") and goes on till the end, with the exception
> >of a few bars with the sword motiv ("so gruess ich die Burg").
> >
> >Regards
> >
>
> I tried to use the phrase march/procession a couple of times in this thread so
> as to be a little more inclusive; technically it may not be a march, but I find
> that solemn and stately cadence, with its intertwining themes, much more
> interesting than most of the conventional marches.
I was being serious: It *is* a bit strange. I read about the ending
of Rheingold several times in this thread and didn't even realize it
is in 3/4 time. I wasn't critisizing you.
Regards
Tom Kaufman
>every single moment he can. We all know by this time he doesn't like
>Wagner - Believe you me he has told us enough times, but it sounds like some
>kind of an obsession. For the rest of us it is just boring - I won't block
>him because he can be really interestng to read but thiese incessant and all
>too predictable rants against Wagner are just boring. Richard Loeb
>
I can't help it. I just love the man and his music.
But will try to resist.
Tom
Matthew燘. Tepper
?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Leonard Tillman
>there will be a new production at the Royal
> Opera next season with
> Alagna/Gheorghiu/Bryn Terfel.
What a treat they would have been in the Met's b'cast this past season.
Its performers on that occasion were passable, a flaw being the
otherwise satisfactory-to-fine Marcus Haddock's "passagio-breaking"
apex in "Salut demeure", but the ROH trio above should be
near-legendary. Especially Bryn Terfel.
>An excellent
> recording was made in 91 with Richard
> Leech/Cheryl Studer/ Jose van Dam, with the
> chorus of the French army joining in for the
> soldier's chorus.
The set captures Leech's voice in good condition, prior to the tremolo
afflicting his later performances. Studer, however much reviled here,
due to a "fan" not of her choosing, is a fine Marguerite, Hampson, a
smooth Valentin, and Van Dam, a model of suavity, understated menace,
and bass-baritonal grandeur as Mephisto.
Best,
LT
"Plain women know more about men than beautiful women do."
-- Katharine Hepburn
susurrus
Mr. Tillman wrote:
<Its performers on that occasion were passable, a flaw being the . .
"passagio-breaking" apex in "Salut demeure" . . . >
Dear Mr. Tillman:
I am uncertain of your meaning re that flaw. Will you be kind enough to
elucidate? I'll be ever so grateful.
the susurrussi
Leonard Tillman
>Mr. Tillman wrote:
"<Its performers on that occasion were
passable, a flaw being the . . "passagio-breaking" apex in "Salut
demeure" . .
>Dear Mr. Tillman:
Yes?
>I am uncertain of your meaning re that flaw.
> Will you be kind enough to elucidate? I'll be
> ever so grateful.
Ever so grateful, eh?
Well, My Dear Susurrus, a recent article, of yours, in fact, on the
subject of falsetto (or not) seemed to touch upon the vocal actions
involved when optimally done.
As I recall,
When Mr. Haddock, singing rather well throughout most of his celebrated
aria approached the anticipated and inevitable "Ou se devine la
*presence* ", - a form of what some friends here would call the dreaded
"cracker syndrome" became markedly manifest.
On this very ng, there was, afterwards, some debate as to Haddock's
execution of that note. The consensus was that he was unsuccessfully
attempting the usual full-voiced procedure, as done by most of his
countless illustrious predecessors.
My impression was that he'd have made it on another occasion, this one
not being his luckiest day, so to speak.
Di Stefano's much-admired live version, which I've yet to hear, is said
to have featured a soft - but not quite falsetto - effect during this
elusive note.
Haddock's rendition contained an audible "crack" or at best, an abrupt
shift to the portion of the vocal cords associated with falsetto sound.
At least this is the impression of a "talented amateur" - IOW, a
non-academic.
Now, Susurrus, would you care to discuss the foregoing? I will defer
to your academic or experiential expertise - no joke.
>the susurrussi
Best,
LT
aka - That Jew Tillman Dude
susurrus
Mr. Tillman responded to my serious and non-confrontational query thusly:
> Well, My Dear Susurrus, a recent article, of yours, in fact, on the
> subject of falsetto (or not) seemed to touch upon the vocal actions
> involved when optimally done.
>
> As I recall,
> When Mr. Haddock, singing rather well throughout most of his celebrated
> aria approached the anticipated and inevitable "Ou se devine la
> *presence* ", - a form of what some friends here would call the dreaded
> "cracker syndrome" became markedly manifest.
>
> On this very ng, there was, afterwards, some debate as to Haddock's
> execution of that note. The consensus was that he was unsuccessfully
> attempting the usual full-voiced procedure, as done by most of his
> countless illustrious predecessors.
>
> My impression was that he'd have made it on another occasion, this one
> not being his luckiest day, so to speak.
>
> Di Stefano's much-admired live version, which I've yet to hear, is said
> to have featured a soft - but not quite falsetto - effect during this
> elusive note.
>
> Haddock's rendition contained an audible "crack" or at best, an abrupt
> shift to the portion of the vocal cords associated with falsetto sound.
>
> At least this is the impression of a "talented amateur" - IOW, a
> non-academic.
>
> Now, Susurrus, would you care to discuss the foregoing? I will defer
> to your academic or experiential expertise - no joke.
>
Dear Mr. Tillman:
Are you saying that Haddock's voice broke on the high C and not in the
passaggio? If so, how does your expression "passagio-breaking apex" relate
to that, given that the passaggio lies at roughly E to F above middle C?
susurrusissimus
Leonard Tillman
"[....]At least this is the impression of a "talented amateur" - IOW, a
non-academic. "
And concluded with a charactistically friendly and purely
non-confrontational:
"Now, Susurrus, would you care to discuss the foregoing? I
will defer to your academic or experiential expertise - no joke. "
Susurrus answered:
>Dear Mr. Tillman:
>Are you saying that Haddock's voice broke on
> the high C and not in the passaggio?
In *effect*, I may well have been saying this, given that among other
points made, I was and am again saying that I'm "a non-academic". See
below.
>If so,
As a distinguished, established, highly competent teacher of voice, it
is for you to tell us what is so in this regard, and exactly how it is
so.
I expect no less of you.
> how does your expression
> "passagio-breaking apex" relate to that, given
> that the passaggio lies at roughly E to F
> above middle C?
Ah, your point has been made! Albeit belatedly.
But is the passaggio identically positioned with all male singers, or
even with all tenors, -- or does it vary among individuals?
Perhaps you might, as I've amiably and non-confrontationally requested
(see above), discuss and enlighten us non-academics who'd genuinely like
a better, more comprehensive understanding of the vocal mechanisms and
related techniques.
>susurrusissimus
Leonardissimmo, TJTD
PS:
Your treatise:
susurrus
news:14228-3F...@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net...
I wrote in part:
"[....]At least this is the impression of a "talented amateur" - IOW, a
non-academic. "
And concluded with a charactistically friendly and purely
non-confrontational:
"Now, Susurrus, would you care to discuss the foregoing? I
will defer to your academic or experiential expertise - no joke. "
Susurrus answered:
>Dear Mr. Tillman:
>Are you saying that Haddock's voice broke on
> the high C and not in the passaggio?
In *effect*, I may well have been saying this, given that among other
points made, I was and am again saying that I'm "a non-academic". See
below.
Susurrus: Even some "non-academics" can distinguish between cracking on a
high C and cracking on an F.
>If so,
As a distinguished, established, highly competent teacher of voice, it
is for you to tell us what is so in this regard, and exactly how it is
so.
Susurrus: Yes, well, I can write at length about technique. But I already
know what my own thoughts are. What I was after was YOUR thoughts when you
wrote:
" a flaw being the otherwise satisfactory-to-fine Marcus Haddock's
"passagio-breaking" apex in "Salut demeure".
I expect no less of you.
> how does your expression
> "passagio-breaking apex" relate to that, given
> that the passaggio lies at roughly E to F
> above middle C?
< Ah, your point has been made! Albeit belatedly. >
Susurrus: Not really. I wasn't making a point. I was asking for your
thinking. I ask again.
susurrus
Leonard Tillman
" [....]Ah, your point has been made! Albeit belatedly."
Susurrus responded with:
>Susurrus: Not really. I wasn't making a point.
To give benefit of doubt, I'll concede it was perhaps not intentional,
but the point was made by you, that my "passaggio break" reference
seemed incorrect regarding the note at which it was dealt with by Mr.
Haddock vis a vis high C or E to F above middle C - *terms of which* - I
have admitted unfamiliarity, ergo the possibility of inaccuracy. ("Not
that there's anything wrong with that"..)
How would you, from a standpoint of expertise, characterize what we
heard at that moment?
>I was asking for your thinking. I ask again.
Asked and answered, within the limits of technical reference thus far
familiar to me.
As with several vastly more illustrious singers than myself, some of
whom were of "the Golden Age", I do not happen to read music, -- a fact,
btw, that I've often made known here, and that any devout follower of LT
posts should readily recall.
I, in turn, asked for some of your thinking, i.e., in the form of
discourse, explanation, and possible critique, pro and/or con, of Marcus
Haddock's vocal management, and seeming difficulty at that point in the
broadcast performance under discussion.
- I ask again.
>susurrus
LT
susurrus
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote
> I, in turn, asked for some of your thinking, i.e., in the form of
> discourse, explanation, and possible critique, pro and/or con, of Marcus
> Haddock's vocal management, and seeming difficulty at that point in the
> broadcast performance under discussion.
> - I ask again.
>
I didn't hear that performance. And I've never heard Mr. Haddock sing, so
I'm unfamiliar with the technical status of his technique.
But I will observe that one of the more common reasons for a voice to crack
above the break, especially on a C or a B-flat, is anxiety. Anxiety can
prevent the taking of a full relaxed energizing breath of air accompanied by
an unforced lowering of the larynx, all of which are a needed for a
full-throated resonant on-pitch high C. It's a little like going off the
high-board or skiing the moguls in the dark. You must have learned the
proper technique, and then trust the technique when it is time to deliver
before a world-wide audience on a radio broadcast. On the other hand maybe a
burp got in his way.
susurrus
Leonard Tillman
>"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net>
> wrote
Always a possibility, but I'd go with the anxiety explanation. Probably
happens to most singers at various times, a Met broadcast debut being
particularly daunting, even for a tenor with, I believe, over eight
years public experience including the international scene.
Haddock sang beautifully in the ROH "Tales of Hoffmann" telecast not
long ago on WNYE - TV.
>susurrus
Alan Watkins
> >Subject: Re: Meyerbeer Fall From Grace(was Faust Fall From Grace)
> >From: alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins)
>
> It was opened in 1883 to Libuse by Smetana and I had the honour
> >to be the timpanist in Libuse when the theatre was re-opened after
> >refurbishment in 1983.
> >
> >Kind regards,
> >Alan M. Watkins
> =====================
> Amazing that you should mention that. I heard the Festival March (I think
> that's what's is usually called in English) from Libuse just this afternoon on
> Los Angeles' KMZT.
>
> It had been several years since I first heard the entire opera, which has some
> great music, but like most of Tchaikovsky's and Dvorak's lesser-known operas is
> hampered by an undistinguished libretto. Or perhaps it were fairer to say a
> libretto on a story quite unfamiliar to almost everyone in other countries.
>
> Smetana's 'march', if one can call it that, is quite unlike western European
> marches (at least to my amateurish ear). It's quite long and free flowing, and
> the rhythm (meter?) is not nearly so pronounced. At times it becomes almost
> lyrical; but it's a lovely piece.
>
>
> Pat
Yes it is a great opera but it is too "national" to travel. Mr
Smetana's operas are mostly "national". Dvorak's are not for we know
that Rusalka travels well but one of his finest works (and genuinely
funny): "Kate and the Devil" does not travel either. No one knows the
music, no one has the sets, no one has the costumes.
Smetana was a great composer and although it has appeared in many
distinguished recordings I would guess there are not that many live
performances of the complete Ma Vlast outside of the Czech Republic.
If you listen to both Libuse and Dalibor you will find the origins of
Ma Vlast.
Alan Watkins
With respect, it is more than Beethoven 9. In all nine symphonies
Beethoven wrote for a pair of timpani (basically, tonic dominant) but
Meyerbeer and others began the process of lifting the instrument into
real harmonics. I suspect the biggest influence on Meyerbeer was that
he played the instrument.
So, too, did Jules Massenet (timpanist of the Paris Opera Orchestra)
and it is said (and I cannot vouch for the accuracy) that he wrote
down on the skins of his drums such musical ideas as came to him in
the pit. It's only a guess but he was probably doing Bellini at the
time.
Adolphe Adam was also a professional timpanist and both he and
Massenet took not just the timpani forward but also the vital small
orchestral percussion, as you can easily hear in any of the Massenet
"Scenes" or, indeed, Le Cid. Or Adam, or Auber. This was picked up
by Bizet and also Offenbach.
The French influence upon percussion writing is profoundly underrated.
And it goes back a long way: right back to the Philidor brothers march
for four timbales in the 17th century which is possibly the first
written down music for two players (and a minor 3rd at that). And
also to the wonderful solos from Jean Phillipe-Rameau. Was his
overture Zais the first to open with a solo bass drum? I suspect it
was. A lot of this work sounds like Berlioz, yet it was written
nearly two centuries before.
And we are still here, harmonically, with the Everly Brothers (no,
that wasn't a bass drum in Till I Kissed You, it was the Old Ladies
doing their thing).
Works fall from grace from time to time but my instruments do not.
Capa0848
>From: alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins)
>And it goes back a long way: right back to the Philidor brothers march
>for four timbales in the 17th century which is possibly the first
>written down music for two players (and a minor 3rd at that).
>Kind regards,
>Alan M. Watkins
I do not know of these brothers. Are they any relation to Francois Danican
Philidor, the late eighteenth century composer who was also the greatest
chessplayer of his age?. His "L'Analyse du Jeu des Echecs" was the first
systematic treatise on the strategy of that great game. When he played three
opponents 'sans voir' (i.e. without sight of the board, calling out his moves
in chess notation after hearing the move of his opponent(s), witnesses signed
affidavits to attest to the performance -- because otherwise, it was thought,
few would have believed it possible.
Were the Philidors the equivalent of the German Bachs, i.e. a musical dynasty?
Pat
Money is a singular thing. It ranks with love as man's greatest source of joy.
And with death as his greatest source of anxiety.
JK Galbraith "The Age of Uncertainty"
Alan Watkins
> >Subject: Re: Meyerbeer Fall From Grace(was Faust Fall From Grace)
> >From: alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins)
>
> >And it goes back a long way: right back to the Philidor brothers march
> >for four timbales in the 17th century which is possibly the first
> >written down music for two players (and a minor 3rd at that).
>
> >Kind regards,
> >Alan M. Watkins
>
> I do not know of these brothers. Are they any relation to Francois Danican
> Philidor, the late eighteenth century composer who was also the greatest
> chessplayer of his age?. His "L'Analyse du Jeu des Echecs" was the first
> systematic treatise on the strategy of that great game. When he played three
> opponents 'sans voir' (i.e. without sight of the board, calling out his moves
> in chess notation after hearing the move of his opponent(s), witnesses signed
> affidavits to attest to the performance -- because otherwise, it was thought,
> few would have believed it possible.
>
> Were the Philidors the equivalent of the German Bachs, i.e. a musical dynasty?
>
> Pat
Yes, they most certainly were a dynastic musical family and one to
whom anyone interested in that period of music in France owes an
enormous debt.
Francois was the son of the principal writer of the march - Andre
Danican Philidor. Andre Philidor was the the Music Librarian to Louis
XIV (a great music loving monarch) and Francois was brought up in the
royal court in Versailles serving for some time as a page boy, I
believe.
I did not know of the extent of his ability at chess and thank you for
such fascinating information.
Andre Philidor, apart from writing a substantial quantity of music in
his own right, also preserved a great deal of music that might
otherwise have been lost by copying it out. Andre was a specialist in
the timpani and the march I mentioned was first performed for the King
at Versailles in 1683. I am away from my recordings but I believe his
brother's name was Jacques....all had the middle name of Danican.
It's a brief piece, less than four minutes, but because Andre Danican
Philidor wrote it out so carefully it is probably the first timpani
duo for two players to have survived in notation (and indeed one of
the earliest pieces of any timpani part to survive in original
notation). Centuries on, it is still a thrilling piece to play for
both players and includes what might be described as "stereo" effects
between them, rather as the "battle" finale of Nielsen Symphony 4
anticipates such reproduction.
It is still in the repertoire of timpanists long after 1683 and I
note, with some satisfaction, that many University percussion courses
include it in 2003.
One of my joys over the last decade or so has been taking classical
music into schools and children, of course, are always fascinated by
percussion and what I call my "old ladies". We have done a number of
concerts in which a colleague and I have finished with the Philidor
march - which kids love - and then asked them to GUESS when it was
written. The earliest answer we have so far is, I think, 1900.
While not technically difficult in the contemporary sense, the march
shows a deep understanding of the capability of the timpani and is
certainly not for beginners. It was certainly contemporary in it's
time....I don't know of too many Kings who sat listening to a drum duo
in 1683.