Turandot is a very silly opera
J. Miller
There, I've said it!
Although I've heard Turandot before (along with the usual excerpts),
tonight I listened to it for the first time with a libretto. What a mess!
In a nutshell: a very selfish prince and a very selfish princess scream at
each other, remorselessly cause the deaths of many innocent people, then
live happily ever after. I think the crowds that are cheering at the end
will live to regret that union (if they're lucky).
And the music, except for a few bright spots (the ensemble at the end of
Act 1, Nessun dorma, and Liu's other aria that I've forgotten) it really
wasn't very enjoyable. A better vehicle for a bleating tenor I never saw
(most of Calaf's lines end with exclamation points)...even Bjoerling had
trouble giving his character any shading. Turandot is forced to screech
out monotonously high tones until well into the second half of the opera.
Then later, once the shrew has been tamed ("she may be saying no, but she
really means yes" proven true, yet again), she turns into a big nothing.
Just exactly at what point did Puccini lay down his pen? And why, oh why
is this opera so popular?
--
Janice Miller
mill...@usit.net
Clarksville, TN
William Curley
I suspect that the flams in reply to this posting will be more numerous than almost anything experienced on this group. I will try and give you my counterarguments.
1) This opera is for me avery interesting example of an opera where the chorus is an integral part of the drama. They are out searching for Calaf's name. I don't think that the chorus is as active in most operas.
2) The dramatic confrontation between Turandot and Calaf can be a magnificent taut engaging contest, (see Corelli/Nilsson).
3) The Ping/Pang/Pong characters provide very wise comic relief.
4) The thought of the father warning a stranger away from his daughter, out of concern for the stranger not the daughter is very gripping.
5) There are several extremely interesting and pleasant arias, in the opera. Liu's first appearance is one very clear example.
6) The thoughts and emotions expressed "In Questa Reggia" are perfectly understandable and certainly "connect" with me.
7) I don't understand what the basis for your pessimism about the future. After all they both are "conquered by love" and Liu's suicide. They both exit the opera much more humane people than they entered it.
8) The oriental musicality has always been a source of joy to me. It is very well done (IMHO).
I lok forward to a very interesting thread.
Bill
dkessler
There are legions of cold, caloused inviduals out there today in the
audiences and elsewhere and the appeal that this work can be explained in
those terms.
Now don't tell me its just a fable and no deeper meanings should be
sought in this story since Pucini drenches the score in such emotionalism
that you can rest on that 'fable' idea.
Let us not forget that this 'fable' comes to us from a play by Carlo
Gozzi, the Venetian playwright who was the arch enemy of the humanist
playwright, Carlo Goldoni who was literally driven from Venice by this
horrible man.
J. Miller
William Curley <wcu...@billsun.lehman.com> wrote in article
<WCURLEY.97...@billsun.lehman.com>...
> I suspect that the flams in reply to this posting will be more numerous
than almost anything experienced on this group. I will try and give you my
counterarguments.
>
> 1) This opera is for me avery interesting example of an opera where the
chorus is an integral part of the drama. They are out searching for Calaf's
name. I don't think that the chorus is as active in most operas.
True, but they are searching because they are being systematically executed
for not knowing his name. I find this detracts from the beauty of the
moment :).
>
> 2) The dramatic confrontation between Turandot and Calaf can be a
magnificent taut engaging contest, (see Corelli/Nilsson).
The Bjoerling/Nilsson version I heard (on very scratchy records) was
unpleasantly coarse and screechy.
>
> 3) The Ping/Pang/Pong characters provide very wise comic relief.
I agree.
>
> 4) The thought of the father warning a stranger away from his daughter,
out of concern for the stranger not the daughter is very gripping.
In the version I heard, this role was not represented well. And if he was
so darned upset about his daughter, could he not have done something about
her?
(.....)
> 7) I don't understand what the basis for your pessimism about the
future. After all they both are "conquered by love" and Liu's suicide. They
both exit the opera much more humane people than they entered it.
They both have their minds on other things, don't they? Anyway, it's
incredibly simplistic (not of you, but of the librettist) to assume that a
kiss and a suicide will transform a woman whose bloody tactics have
destroyed China's peace (acc. to PP&P), and a man who would have let the
whole country be murdered before he told her his name. Neither one of
these characters is going to win the humanitarian of the year award.
>
And I haven't written off Turandot, I've never "seen" it. I'm sure it can
be a very grand and impressive affair. And certainly, many opera plots
don't bear close scrutiny (and we love them anyway!). Maybe it was unfair
of me to take pot shots at what is probably regarded as a weak story, but I
was, and am, looking for new points of view. Thank you for yours, Bill,
and I hope to hear a few more.
Janice
Brian Newhouse
In article <E53GG...@nonexistent.com>, dkessler
<dkes...@yorick.ny.cybernex.net> wrote:
> Let us not forget that this 'fable' comes to us from a play by Carlo
> Gozzi, the Venetian playwright who was the arch enemy of the humanist
> playwright, Carlo Goldoni who was literally driven from Venice by this
> horrible man.
Actually, Puccini's libretto much simplified the original Gozzi. Most
importantly, the self-sacrificing slave girl Liu who kills herself for
love in the opera is not in Gozzi; her equivalent in the plot is
Turandot's scheming lady-in-waiting Adelma, who neither kills herself nor
is killed at the end. Busoni's _Turandot_ is much closer to Gozzi, albeit
much condensed.
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
Rosario Gennaro
J. Miller wrote:
>
> There, I've said it!
It's OK :) Everybody is entitled to his/her opinion :)
>
> Although I've heard Turandot before (along with the usual excerpts),
> tonight I listened to it for the first time with a libretto. What a mess!
> In a nutshell: a very selfish prince and a very selfish princess scream at
> each other, remorselessly cause the deaths of many innocent people, then
> live happily ever after. I think the crowds that are cheering at the end
> will live to regret that union (if they're lucky).
Well the point is that at the end they are supposed to be *changed*,
especially Turandot. Also if you look at stories with this attitude,
not too many opera plots are not "silly".
If you really want to find a deep meaning in Turandot, there are
many ways you can go: Turandot's frigidity induced by memories of
sexual abuse (was it really an ancestor who was taken by force???),
the power of Love, etc etc
>
> And the music, except for a few bright spots (the ensemble at the end of
> Act 1, Nessun dorma, and Liu's other aria that I've forgotten) it really
> wasn't very enjoyable.
I find all Act I with the choruses to be amazing. The riddle scene is
just breathtaking. Liu's arias are so moving. Timur's farewell to
Liu' after her death makes me cry all the time I hear it.
And Nessun Dorma is just that :)
> Then later, once the shrew has been tamed ("she may be saying no, but she
> really means yes" proven true, yet again), she turns into a big nothing.
True. But then again Puccini did not write that part ...
> Just exactly at what point did Puccini lay down his pen?
After Liu's death. And personally I never understood why the opera
should go further. Why does Turandot need a kiss from Calaf to
turn back into a loving woman? Why isn't Liu' example of Love
and dedication enough to move her?
Any answer?
> And why, oh why
> is this opera so popular?
Oh boy, speaking of sillyness, I have the same question about the Ring
:)
---Rosario
Tom Ascher
I've wondered if the negative portrayal of Turandot was somehow an attempt by
Puccini to publicly get back at his wife who indirectly caused the death of
a servant woman who was driven to suicide by wrongful accusations of having
had an affair with Giacomo...?!
=====================================================================
Tom Ascher Internet: u15...@uicvm.cc.uic.edu
University of Illinois at Chicago Phone: (312) 413-3665
James Jorden
J. Miller wrote:
>Although I've heard Turandot before (along with the usual excerpts),
>tonight I listened to it for the first time with a libretto. What a mess!
>In a nutshell: a very selfish prince and a very selfish princess scream at
>each other, remorselessly cause the deaths of many innocent people, then
>live happily ever after. I think the crowds that are cheering at the end
>will live to regret that union (if they're lucky).
>
>And the music, except for a few bright spots (the ensemble at the end of
>Act 1, Nessun dorma, and Liu's other aria that I've forgotten) it really
>wasn't very enjoyable. A better vehicle for a bleating tenor I never saw
>(most of Calaf's lines end with exclamation points)...even Bjoerling had
>trouble giving his character any shading. Turandot is forced to screech
>out monotonously high tones until well into the second half of the opera.
>Then later, once the shrew has been tamed ("she may be saying no, but she
>really means yes" proven true, yet again), she turns into a big nothing.
>Just exactly at what point did Puccini lay down his pen? And why, oh why
>is this opera so popular?
I think Janice makes some valid points, and misses some others.
To answer your question, the official Puccini/not Puccini line of
demarcation is right after the choral response to the death of Liu, just
before the "Indian movie" music that leads into Calaf's "Principessa di
morte" rant. And you should keep in mind that no commercial recording
yet has included the real complete ending by Alfano, which is no great
shakes musically, but makes far better sense emotionally.
The first problem is the recording you're listening to. While Bjoerling
did in fact make many very fine records (his Boheme is lovely), this
Turandot is (IMO) not remotely one of them. The voice is both far too
small and too cold in timbre to make the role of Calaf work; in
addition, he often bleats like a sheep (listen to the end of "Nessun
dorma", when he sounds like Gedda in tight underwear). Even the
smallish-voiced Pavarotti pulls this role off (on record, anyway)
because the color of the voice is so very Italianate, but who you really
want to hear is an Italian dramatic tenor a la Martinelli, Lauri-Volpi,
or (more accessibly) del Monaco or Corelli.
Another problem is the sound of this RCA performance. Thoughit has been
improved greatly from previous releases, it's still sterile and
unatmospheric. The wonderful artists Birgit Nilsson and Renata Tebaldi,
though better cast than Bjoerling, are both a notch below their
respective bests in these roles (Nilsson on EMI opposite Corelli and
Scotto, Tebaldi on Decca with del Monaco and Borkh). So, a different
recording (the Decca Sutherland/Pavarotti/Caballe is also excellent,
though not as "real" sounding as the two I just mentioned) may well
reconcile you to the real beauty of the melodies and the dazzling
orchestration.
The story of the opera is something of a stumbling-block, that is true;
perhaps had Puccini lived to finish the opera (and perhaps do some
retouching after the premiere, as he did with many of his works), he
would have been able to pull off the emotional wallop he was going for
in the transformation of the ice-princess. Then again, maybe not: that
whole man-hater defeated idea is just not something we buy into so much
these days. I will say I have seenm performances where the singers fill
in the holes in the plot and made me believe through their acting (the
widely-maligned Dame Gwyneth Jones brings off both the transformation
and the dramatic catharsis very nicely, thank you-- I'll be glad to
detail the acting choices she employs if you are interested). But I
will admit that it is in fact a flaw in an opera if the payoff is so
dependent upon the individual *acting* performance of a role that is so
difficult to cast *vocally*.
Anyway, I think what Puccini was going for (and apparently not able to
get across to his librettists) was the idea that Turandot was so
terrified of feeling love that she regularly destroyed anyone or
anything she was attracted to. In the aria "Del primo pianto" she
recalls that when she first glimpsed Calaf, she saw in his eyes "the
proud certainly of a hero" and "for that I loved you, and for that I
hated you." Conflicted and confused, she saw her only two choices as "to
conquer or to be conquered-- and now I am conquered." Besides, after
all those years, she is terrified of the new experience of living
without the hatred and fear that has sustained her for so long. Calaf,
by giving her his name, surrenders all his power over her, and literally
places his life at her mercy. That way he cannot possibly threaten her,
and she is free to experience honest emotion.
Again, it's hard to bring off, especially after all the bloodshed that
goes before (again, I think a miscalculation of the sensibility of the
audience by Puccini & Co.) We are so moved by the suicide of Liu that
we tend to blame Turandot for her death, when in fact the slave-girl
offers her life freely as the only way of expressing her unrequited
(and, more importantly, unrequitable -- is that a word?) love for the
Unknown Prince. This vital dramatic point is often blurred by lyric
sopranos who weep and whine and in general play the whole "Tu che di
gel" scene as if they were remembering the death of a favorite doggy in
traffic; in fact Liu's mood is elated, even joyous as she chooses her
own death in direct defiance of the Princess's will.
"Turandot" works better, I think, in the theater than on disc (assuming
-- and this is very optimistic indeed -- that the leads can sing the
music acceptably) because the act of observing the sheer physical effort
of pulling off these murderous roles is enormously exciting and
therefore makes the characters seem more heroic -- this really is a
death-defying opera, and on those occasions when the stars not only
survive but triumph, the feeling is terrific, overwhelming.
On a slighly less dazed level, I will say the opera can be a striking
spectacle of exotic and colorful costumes, crowd movement, and dance.
And there's a half-naked muscleman in the first act, a production detail
that I think enhances any opera with the possible exception of
"Dialogues of the Carmelites".
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre
"Without Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals, there is no theater."
-- Mel Brooks in "To Be or Not to Be"
Lis K. Froding
In <01bc1272$886f52a0$LocalHost@first-floor> "J. Miller"
<mill...@usit.net> writes:
>
[snip snip]
>Just exactly at what point did Puccini lay down his pen?
After Liu's suicide.
>And why, oh why is this opera so popular?
Sorry to disagree with you, but I rather enjoy this opera. It's also
quite a spectacle.
>Janice Miller
Lis
J. Miller
Lis K. Froding <too...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5d9aae$b...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>...
featured Carreras and Marton, not my personal favorites for anything done
in the last 10 - 15 years. Any suggestions? (yes, Mike, I know :)
Janice
Brad
Janice, your post gave me one of the most enjoyable belly-laugh that I've
had lately, and another reason to continue reading rec.music.opera!
--
Brad Snow
fsb...@aurora.alaska.edu
doc...@okc.oklahoma.net
In article <32F825...@ix.netcom.com>,
James Jorden <jjo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>To answer your question, the official Puccini/not Puccini line of
>demarcation is right after the choral response to the death of Liu, just
>before the "Indian movie" music that leads into Calaf's "Principessa di
>morte" rant. And you should keep in mind that no commercial recording
>yet has included the real complete ending by Alfano, which is no great
>shakes musically, but makes far better sense emotionally.
actually, Puccini composed the music all the way up to the point where
Turandot says "mia gloria e finita". he just did not orchestrate it.
alfano used all of this except the music for the kiss. and it is
exactly at this point that the music begins to become incoherent.
puccini's sketches pointed in an entirely different direction than
alfano's completions - dawn, for example was supposed to come with
only a few instruments creating a light sound color and releasing
the brutal oppression of the darkness with which the opera began
at sunset....
alfano's response to turandot was to have calaf brutalize her more
than she had brutalized men in general - a total misreading of the
libretto and the musical sketches.
while alfano renders the end of the opera incoherent, it is inappropriate
to speculate on puccini's incompetence in this matter since his sketches
were entirelyl self-consistent with the rest of the opera and pointing
in an entirely different direction from the current ending.
Linda B. Fairtile
doc...@okc.oklahoma.net writes:
> actually, Puccini composed the music all the way up to the point where
> Turandot says "mia gloria e finita". he just did not orchestrate it.
> alfano used all of this except the music for the kiss. and it is
> exactly at this point that the music begins to become incoherent.
> puccini's sketches pointed in an entirely different direction than
> alfano's completions - dawn, for example was supposed to come with
> only a few instruments creating a light sound color and releasing
> the brutal oppression of the darkness with which the opera began
> at sunset....
I'm just curious -- what's your source for this information?
--
Linda B. Fairtile
Astoria, New York
ta...@bway.net
Linda B. Fairtile
James Jorden writes:
>Anyway, I think what Puccini was going for (and apparently not able to
>get across to his librettists) was the idea that Turandot was so
>terrified of feeling love that she regularly destroyed anyone or
>anything she was attracted to. [SNIP] Calaf, by giving her his name,
>surrenders all his power over her, and literally places his life at her
>mercy. That way he cannot possibly threaten her, and she is free to
experience honest emotion.
Bravo, James. This is as good an explanation of Turandot's behavior
as I have seen anywhere. You're also correct, I think, about the Liu
problem. She was, of course, Puccini's invention, and therefore not
a part of the original story. The emotion that wells up as a result of
her death throws the whole ending off balance. It's not the first time
that Puccini made a major dramatic miscalculation, but in the past
he always had the time, and also the counsel of strong artistic
personalities, to get the libretto back on track.
Brian Newhouse
In article <32F825...@ix.netcom.com>, jjo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[a very good sympathetic yet critical account of a very problematic opera
snipped]
> On a slighly less dazed level, I will say the opera can be a striking
> spectacle of exotic and colorful costumes, crowd movement, and dance.
> And there's a half-naked muscleman in the first act, a production detail
> that I think enhances any opera with the possible exception of
> "Dialogues of the Carmelites".
>
Gee, sounds like Menotti and his inevitable children or Zeffirelli with
his inevitable animals...but seriously, let's rise to the occasion: name
an appropriate use of a half-naked muscleman to enhance any of the
following operas (preferably in the first act):
Le nozze di Figaro
Cosi fan tutte
Fidelio
La Cenerentola
Lucia di Lammermoor
Simon Boccanegra
La Gioconda
The bartered bride
The Queen of Spades
Tristan und Isolde
La boheme [and keep the weather in mind!]
Adriana Lecouvreur
Werther
Pelleas et Melisande
L'enfant et les sortileges
The mother of us all
The turn of the screw
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
doc...@okc.oklahoma.net
In article <tasha.11...@bway.net>,
ta...@bway.net (Linda B. Fairtile) wrote:
>I'm just curious -- what's your source for this information?
>
a book by Ashbrook and Powers and references cited therein.
published 91. some of the sketches are available in this book
and in the references.
James Kahn
In article <32F7F8...@heory.lcs.mit.edu>,
Rosario Gennaro <ros...@theory.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>I find all Act I with the choruses to be amazing. The riddle scene is
>just breathtaking. Liu's arias are so moving. Timur's farewell to
>Liu' after her death makes me cry all the time I hear it.
>And Nessun Dorma is just that :)
"Just that"? Meaning that no one falls asleep during it? :-)
--Jim
====================================================================
ka...@troi.cc.rochester.edu Department of Economics
http://kahn.econ.rochester.edu University of Rochester
Rochester, NY 14627
James Jorden
But did Puccini really write the music (I mean, bar by bar) or did he
just leave a collection of sketches? Part of Puccini's genius was in
his transitions from idea to idea. My objection to Alfano's ending is
that he does not seem to use Puccini's materials in a particularly
enlightened way, and the result sounds so abrupt and jerky.
James Jorden
Brian Newhouse wrote:
>
> Gee, sounds like Menotti and his inevitable children or Zeffirelli
> with his inevitable animals...but seriously, let's rise to the
> occasion: name an appropriate use of a half-naked muscleman to enhance
> any of the following operas (preferably in the first act):
Aw, Brian. I never said the beefcake guy had to be *appropriate*, just
that it would be *fun*. I mean, how appropriate are all those silly
ballets in French grand opera? But, since you asked . . .
> Le nozze di Figaro
A well-built Figaro might well be stripped to the waist to do the
heavy and sweaty work of furnishing his room. Said sweatiness would add
an earthy touch to all the Figaro-Susanna sexual tension. And imagine
Marcellina's leer when she glimpses Figaro's shiny pecs!
> Cosi fan tutte
Actually, I've used this idea. While Dorabella and Fiordiligi are
lamenting their sad, lonely separation from their lovers, a humpy
barechested gardener wanders by, catching Dorabella's eye for a moment
until she is silently admonished with a glance from Fiordiligi.
> Fidelio
Shirtless prisoners are reasonable enough. Again, the brutal heat in
Seville...
> La Cenerentola
Perhaps in a Peter Sellars production, Ramiro could have the
invitations to the ball delivered by a strip-o-gram?
> Lucia di Lammermoor
wrestlers? Okay, you got me.
> Simon Boccanegra
Sailors?
> La Gioconda
Hell, in Gioconda anything goes. Acrobats at the festa. Fisherguys
later on.
> The bartered bride
more acrobats
> The Queen of Spades
a particularly kinky Old Countess, with buff bodyguards to help her
to bed?
> Tristan und Isolde
raunchy, half-naked sailors lounging on the deck and later taunting
Brangaene.
> La boheme [and keep the weather in mind!]
if it's so warm in Act 4, why can't a well-build Schaunard take off
his shirt? (actually this happens in the Ponnelle production)
> Adriana Lecouvreur
there's a ballet in Act 3, always a good excuse for a little male
flesh, and of course Act 1 takes place backstage in the dressing rooms
of a theater. Period dance-belts?
> Werther
I wouldn't go to this opera even if it *did* feature naked
musclemen, so the point is moot.
> Pelleas et Melisande
A beefy Golaud in bed recovering from his wound, Melisande giving
him a guilt-ridden sponge bath?
> L'enfant et les sortileges
You got me.
> The mother of us all
A Sandow-the-Strongman character would not be out of place in this
Americana piece.
> The turn of the screw
Of course! Peter Quint appears nude in little Miles' dreams. (This
one was a real softball question, wasn't it?)
James Jorden
> L'enfant et les sortileges
J. Miller
James Jorden <jjo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<32F825...@ix.netcom.com>...
> Scotto, Tebaldi on Decca with del Monaco and Borkh). So, a different
> recording (the Decca Sutherland/Pavarotti/Caballe is also excellent,
> though not as "real" sounding as the two I just mentioned) may well
> reconcile you to the real beauty of the melodies and the dazzling
> orchestration.
Granted, the sound on these old records *was* horrid.
>
> widely-maligned Dame Gwyneth Jones brings off both the transformation
> and the dramatic catharsis very nicely, thank you-- I'll be glad to
> detail the acting choices she employs if you are interested).
Actually, that might help. Just listening I don't think is enough for
opera, and I don't know when, or if, I'll ever see Turandot.
> conquer or to be conquered-- and now I am conquered." Besides, after
> all those years, she [Turandot] is terrified of the new experience of
living
> without the hatred and fear that has sustained her for so long. Calaf,
> by giving her his name, surrenders all his power over her, and literally
> places his life at her mercy. That way he cannot possibly threaten her,
> and she is free to experience honest emotion.
But how long can he keep that up? (no cheap shots please :)
>
> audience by Puccini & Co.) We are so moved by the suicide of Liu that
> we tend to blame Turandot for her death, when in fact the slave-girl
> offers her life freely as the only way of expressing her unrequited
> (and, more importantly, unrequitable -- is that a word?) love for the
> Unknown Prince.
But it wouldn't have been necessary if Calaf hadn't dreamed up this whole
bend her till she breaks scheme of the name. And in the end, Liu's death
was meaningless (except to herself). Being asked to believe that the death
of a stranger could permanently transform a cold-hearted killer is
ludicrous at best. A momentary weakness on Turandot's part, perhaps, but
*no* amount of orchestration could convince me of her rebirth.
> And there's a half-naked muscleman in the first act, a production detail
> that I think enhances any opera with the possible exception of
> "Dialogues of the Carmelites".
Here we go again....
Janice
CAVRQT
Half naked muscleman could be:
Nozze - the Count
Fidelio - any prisoner
Lucia - any soldier
Tristan - himself
La Boheme - any boheme who'd pawned his overcoat AND jacket...
and so it goes, so it goes.
Full frontal nudity at the Met Show!!!!
Linda B. Fairtile
On Tue, 4 Feb 1997 Tom Ascher wrotes:
>I've wondered if the negative portrayal of Turandot was somehow an attempt by
>Puccini to publicly get back at his wife who indirectly caused the death of
>a servant woman who was driven to suicide by wrongful accusations of having
>had an affair with Giacomo...?!
Well, some people do say that Liu was meant to represent the servant woman...
But then again, Turandot is also portrayed negatively by Gozzi, Busoni, etc.
It's the way she has to be in order for the story to work. She's got to have
something evil to change *from*.
Uwe Schneider
On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, James Jorden wrote:
> > L'enfant et les sortileges
> Performed on a double bill with "Daphnis et Chloe"
Have you thought of a production where the 'sortileges' were painted on
naked bodies of the singers. Wouldn't that show the teraltion
between human beeings and evry-day-things - and isn't that what the opera
is about too?
Uwe Schneider
John Lynch
Brian Newhouse wrote:
...but seriously, let's rise to the occasion: name
> an appropriate use of a half-naked muscleman to enhance any of the
> following operas (preferably in the first act):
> La Gioconda
Hey, Gioconda has everything else: lust, rape, adultery, poisoning,
murder, suicide, AND a ballet, so why not a half-naked muscleman?
--
John Lynch
James Jorden
John Lynch wrote:
>
> Hey, Gioconda has everything else: lust, rape, adultery, poisoning,
> murder, suicide, AND a ballet, so why not a half-naked muscleman?
Now that I think of it, the San Fran "Gioconda" with Scotto and That
Tenor features a tall, muscular black lead dancer in the "Danza delle
ore" -- he is wearing only boots, a gladiator's helmet, a g-string and
a FABulous multicolor lame' cape, so I would call him perhaps
three-quarters naked.
g.f.
In article <E550B...@nonexistent.com>,
Brian Newhouse <newh...@mail.crisp.net> wrote:
>In article <32F825...@ix.netcom.com>, jjo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>
>Gee, sounds like Menotti and his inevitable children or Zeffirelli with
>an appropriate use of a half-naked muscleman to enhance any of the
>following operas (preferably in the first act):
This is the funniest idea I've read on here in ages. I'll try
a few.
>Le nozze di Figaro
Instead of the usual bumbling country fellow, make the Gardener
a shirtless lawn boy.
>Lucia di Lammermoor
Swimming about in the fountain as she sings "Regnava nel Silencio"?
>La boheme [and keep the weather in mind!]
I don't know, but if it involved the Australian Boheme's Rodolfo,
I'm there.
>tHe turn of the screw
Well at least Britten would have approved.
Actually, since James mentioned Dialogues of the Carmelites, I'm
put in mind of all the shirtless executioners in Tosca productions--
the guy dropping the guillotine being a hunk sure would break
up that nasty sad ending. (Tongue in cheek! Tongue in cheek!)
Brian Newhouse
In article <32F8C0...@ix.netcom.com>, jjo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
[and my apologies in advance for any duplications of private e-mail]
> > Fidelio
> Shirtless prisoners are reasonable enough. Again, the brutal heat in
> Seville...
Somehow I hadn't imagined Pizarro as being humane enough to include
Nautilus machines in his prison...remember, we're talking shirtless
_musclemen_ here.
> > Simon Boccanegra
> Sailors?
Yes, of course, sailors, dockworkers, stevedores, etc. in the Prologue,
among Boccanegra's followers.
> > The Queen of Spades
> a particularly kinky Old Countess, with buff bodyguards to help her
> to bed?
Better yet, the shepherds in the second-act pastoral interlude (in which
the leads _are_ yclept Daphnis and Chloe)
> > Tristan und Isolde
> raunchy, half-naked sailors lounging on the deck and later taunting
> Brangaene.
(you know, I _like_ this one)
> > Adriana Lecouvreur
> there's a ballet in Act 3, always a good excuse for a little male
> flesh, and of course Act 1 takes place backstage in the dressing rooms
> of a theater. Period dance-belts?
STAGEHANDS!! (as Frank Zappa might have whispered)
>
> > L'enfant et les sortileges
> You got me.
Oh come now; what about that black Wedgwood teapot "with the manner of a
boxing champion"?
>
> > The turn of the screw
> Of course! Peter Quint appears nude in little Miles' dreams. (This
> one was a real softball question, wasn't it?)
But is Quint sufficiently hunky to qualify?
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
James Jorden
g.f. wrote:
> Actually, since James mentioned Dialogues of the Carmelites, I'm
> put in mind of all the shirtless executioners in Tosca productions--
> the guy dropping the guillotine being a hunk sure would break
> up that nasty sad ending. (Tongue in cheek! Tongue in cheek!)
Well, since you brought it up (and for those few of you have have not
already heard this story) I actually played the executioner in
"Dialogues of the Carmelites" while in college. I wore quite a few hats
besides that executioner's hood, BTW: assistant to the director, acting
coach, costumer, assistant stage manager, and head of the shift crew.
But anyway, you see, the executioner had to be on stage because the top
half of the (prop) guillotine was visible to the audience-- they could
see the blade hurtling down just before hearing the shlunk! notated by
M. Poulenc. The director's first idea was that I would appear stripped
to the waist, and despite my then-sleek figure -- this was approximately
the same period as the notorious "Fish Suit Picture"
(http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre/editor.htm) -- I said, no thank you,
a monk's robe will do just fine.
Well, the first night everything went all right: I hauled in the rope
and released, and the blade fell and made the noise the necessary 16
times. Second night, though, after Nun #7, I noticed slack in the
rope, and then realized: the rope was broken and there was no way to
hoist the blade for the remaining nuns! I frantically whispered this
fact to the soprano playing Madame Lidoine, and she grabbed a stage
weight and whonked the stage with it as I continued to mime operating
the guillotine. (A friend who came backstage after the performance
commented, "Sounded like you were stunning cattle back there..."
What do you expect from a "Carmelites" production where the executed
nuns lined up backstage and sang sotto voce: "Another nun bites the
dust, another nun bites the dust, and another nun's gone...."?
But at least I didn't have to go topless.
Sgtntx
I was also drafted to "appear" in a production of Carmelites... in order
to set the scaffold for the final scene. I then went backstage to create
the sound of the guillotine... there was a metal boom bolted to the deck
with a wheel and tire placed at the bottom, so I could move another metal
pipe against the boom and down to impact the wheel/tire, giving the sound
of "metal and meat," as the director requested. I also sang to the nuns
as they exited... "This one's for you, wherever you are"... "How do you
solve a problem like Maria?" They had forgotten to tell me the effect was
being mic'ed... thank goodness it was only dress rehearsal.
"If it doesn't hurt, it isn't art."
Brian Newhouse
> Well, since you brought it up (and for those few of you have have not
> already heard this story) I actually played the executioner in
> "Dialogues of the Carmelites" while in college. I wore quite a few hats
> besides that executioner's hood, BTW: assistant to the director, acting
> coach, costumer, assistant stage manager, and head of the shift crew.
>
> But anyway, you see, the executioner had to be on stage because the top
> half of the (prop) guillotine was visible to the audience-- they could
> see the blade hurtling down just before hearing the shlunk! notated by
> M. Poulenc. The director's first idea was that I would appear stripped
> to the waist, and despite my then-sleek figure -- this was approximately
> the same period as the notorious "Fish Suit Picture"
> (http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre/editor.htm) -- I said, no thank you,
> a monk's robe will do just fine...
A _monk's_ robe for a flunky of the notorious Committee of Public Safety
during the Reign of Terror of the French Revolution? Quelle horreur!
(And so much for French anti-clericalism)
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
Daniel Kessler
The story is repellant although the packaging is attractive! There have
been times since it was first premiered that it wasn't so popular. That
it has become popular today says something about the audiences that like
it.
Rosario Gennaro
g.f. wrote:
> >Lucia di Lammermoor
>
> Swimming about in the fountain as she sings "Regnava nel Silencio"?
thats a great idea :)
Sorts of the omnipresent pool boy in Melrose Place :)
---Rosario
Rosario Gennaro
Poor Janice
if she only knew what she was going to start with a silly question
on Turandot ;)
Anyway for people who have seen the MET production of Pagliacci.
What about the acrobat who decides to appear in a VERY small
tanktop right when Nedda sings the bird song?
Very very distracting!! :)
---Rosario
John Posch
> Brian Newhouse wrote:
> >
>name an appropriate use of a half-naked muscleman to enhance any of the >following operas (preferably in the first act)
Makes me think of the gorgeous, more-than-half-naked muscleman who sang
Tarquinius in Opera Theater of St. Louis' production of Britten's The
Rape of Lucretia this past summer. We had seats in the first row. By
the way, he could sing pretty well too :)
Linda B. Fairtile
As long as we're confessing, in the early 1980s I killed 48 nuns over
the course of three nights at Oberlin College. We didn't have a guillotine,
so I was backstage with a HUGE machete, which I slid down a metal pipe until
it landed (thunk!) in a block of soft wood at the bottom. And unlike you
wise guys out there, making nun jokes and such, I was bawling my eyes out.
It's a good thing I had my part memorized :-)
Who ever thought this thread would turn into "50 ways to kill a bunch of nuns"?
Peter Landers
In _Opera as Drama_, Joseph Kerman gives four paragraphs to his
continued assault on Puccini, directing all his venom this time
at TURANDOT. Here are some choice snippets:
"Noone can deny the dramatic potential to be found within the
tale. Puccini, however, did not find it; his music does
nothing to rationalize the legend or illuminate the characters;
it is consistent throughout, of cafe-music banality...
The Hymn to the Moon has as little to do with the action
as the "Miserere" in IL TROVATORE. Most damaging of all,
Turandot's surrender has no motivation...
"The inescapable central message of the piece, then, is that the
way to proceed with a frigid beauty is to get your hands on her.
Then she will shout "Love"; in which sentiment you share, even
though previously she has shown her hand by murderous treachery
toward you and by destroying the one half-appealing character in
the play... There is no organic reason for the bogus orientalism
lacquered over every page of the score; it provides local color or
exoticism for its own sake but also, more deeply, a chance for the
artist to wriggle out of his irresponsibilty... Rarely has myth
been so emptily employed as in this absurd extravaganza. Drama is
entirely out of the question."
IMO, while he may have several points there, he is on the attack and
it colors our perception of his credibility. I *do* agree with him
that opera must satisfy the demands of drama. The original idea,
after all, was to revive Sophocles. I think composers who are thinking
about writing opera ought to read this book. I have a "soft spot"
for Puccini, myself, but I can read past the invective. He asks some
very important questions. (*groan!* you should see what he says about
TOSCA! I want to grab him by the lapels and say "Leave the saints
alone!)
Pete L.
Lis K. Froding
In <01bc1338$34bc8e40$a4caf1cd@first-floor> "J. Miller"
<mill...@usit.net> writes:
>
>Lis K. Froding <too...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
><5d9aae$b...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>...
>> In <01bc1272$886f52a0$LocalHost@first-floor> "J. Miller"
>> <mill...@usit.net> writes:
>> >
>Maybe a video would be better, but the only one I've ever seen for
>sale featured Carreras and Marton, not my personal favorites for
>anything done in the last 10 - 15 years. Any suggestions? (yes, Mike,
>I know :)
>
>Janice
There's a Met video w/Domingo & Marton. And one from Verona (?) with
Ghena Dimitrova.
Lis
doc...@okc.oklahoma.net
In article <32FA03E6...@sdsp.mc.xerox.com>,
Peter Landers <lan...@sdsp.mc.xerox.com> wrote:
>In _Opera as Drama_, Joseph Kerman gives four paragraphs to his
>continued assault on Puccini, directing all his venom this time
>at TURANDOT. Here are some choice snippets:
without going into the particulars, Kerman himself admits he
is not particularly good at harmonic analysis, so his questions
remain largely unanswered due to his inability to find the
answers in the music. they are all their.
many aspects of these issues are discussed in Ashbrook and
Power's book on Turandot, including the music Puccini actually
composed for the kiss (which was ignored by alfano who
completed the opera). it is to alfano that we owe the
opera's dramatic and musical incoherence. puccini's
sketches point to an ending of psychological depth of
mythic dimensions.
doc...@okc.oklahoma.net
In article <5dd6ul$21...@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>,
the story is quite insightful and full of psychological truth.
calaf descends into the darkness and releases turandot from
her psychotic hell. it is the orphic cycle done in
psycho-sexual symbolism.
LEOCAPRI
>>let's rise to the occasion: name
an appropriate use of a half-naked muscleman to enhance any of the
Cosi fan tutte<<
I recall a workshop performance of the beginning of act one (which as you
will recall consists of three consecutive all-male trios) in which Ferando
and Guglielmo were high spirited teens in tight sexy gym clothes, tossing
a frisbie. This concept could easily be translated to the weight-room,
with Alfonso as a wise old towel-boy. Scene two, then, would be in the
ladies' steam bath, and scene three would bring everyone together in the
healthfood snack bar. Logically the act one finale would take place in a
coed basketball game, with Despina disguised as a referee.
Mark Shulgasser
rgand...@aol.com
>
>The story is repellant although the packaging is attractive! There have
>been times since it was first premiered that it wasn't so popular. That
>it has become popular today says something about the audiences that like
>it.
And what might that be?
ron
Musipro
rgand...@aol.com wrote:
>In article <5dd6ul$21...@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>, >XTQ...@prodigy.com
>(Daniel Kessler) writes:
>>The story [of Turandot]is repellant although the packaging is
attractive! >>There have
>>been times since it was first premiered that it wasn't so popular. That
>>it has become popular today says something about the audiences that like
>>it.
>And what might that be?
It might be the same taste for violence liberally mixed with eroticism
that draws people to slasher pics--that's actually a description of many
operas by many composers, not just "Turandot." Perhaps the increasing
popularity of opera in general (if it is indeed increasing) reflects the
fact that you can get an awful lot of visceral thrills going to one, while
at the same time convincing yourself that you're doing something elevated
and "cultural."
John Lynch
Daniel Kessler wrote:
>
> The story is repellant although the packaging is attractive! There have
> been times since it was first premiered that it wasn't so popular. That
> it has become popular today says something about the audiences that like
> it.
One reason it wasn't so popular is that there was nobody to sing it.
There was a thirty-five or forty year wait at the Met between the
performances with Maria Jeritza and Giacomo Lauri-Volpi in the late
Twenties or early Thirties and those with Birgit Nilsson and Jussi
Bjoerling in the early Sixties. There were performances around Italy in
the Fifties to my knowledge--I was stationed in Verona and kept checking
the papers for performances but they were always a couple of hundred
miles away. And there was a recording of the opera with Callas in the
title role and Schwarzkopf as Liu in the Fifties. I think it took the
Zefirelli extravaganza at the Met and Pavarotti's interminable
repetition of Nessun dorma to bring the opera to its present popularity
among the unwashed.
James Jorden
John Lynch wrote:
> One reason [Turandot] wasn't so popular is that there was nobody to
> sing it. There was a thirty-five or forty year wait at the Met between
> the performances with Maria Jeritza and Giacomo Lauri-Volpi in the
> late Twenties or early Thirties and those with Birgit Nilsson and
> Jussi Bjoerling in the early Sixties.
Of course Bjoerling never sang Calaf at the Met. Appearing opposite
Nilsson was first and foremost Franco Corelli. Later on, various tenors
including Richard Tucker and (I believe) Sandor Konya took on the role.
> There were performances around
> Italy in the Fifties to my knowledge--I was stationed in Verona and
> kept checking the papers for performances but they were always a
> couple of hundred miles away. And there was a recording of the opera
> with Callas in the title role and Schwarzkopf as Liu in the Fifties. I
> think it took the Zefirelli extravaganza at the Met and Pavarotti's
> interminable repetition of Nessun dorma to bring the opera to its
> present popularity among the unwashed.
Turandot was not exactly a novelty in Italy in the '50s. San Francisco
also did a revival in the late '50s with Leonie Rysanek as the Princess
Around that same time she performed the Kaiserin in SF. I remember
reading an old interview from the early '60s where she talked about how
she loved these two roles but would not ever sing them at the Met --
well, she was half right!
I agree that Turandot is really a festival opera, not meant to be
bread-and-butter repertoire. I have attended a couple of recent
performances at the Met that had literally *nothing* going for them. In
fact, even the (rather puny) muscleman in Act 1 left me cold!
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre
"I don't want to be educated. I want to be drowned in beauty!"
-- Diana Vreeland
James Jorden
Rosario Gennaro wrote:
> Anyway for people who have seen the MET production of Pagliacci.
> What about the acrobat who decides to appear in a VERY small
> tanktop right when Nedda sings the bird song?
> Very very distracting!! :)
Consider it a tribute to the remarkable gifts of Diana Soviero (who
sings Nedda in the current revival) that I never noticed either the tank
top or the acrobat wearing it!
Daniel F. Tritter
Sorry to be a nag about details, but Bjoerling only recorded it with
Nilsson, never sang it live at the Met. It came into reperetoire the year
after he died, and the Calaf, luckily for those of us there, was the
supremely endowed Franco Corelli [don't ask about the night he was sick
and we endured Giulio Gari]...
The Turandot we missed, after Jeritza, was Dame Eva Turner. I dunno where
she got that squillo out of that stubby little body, but I wish we'd had
a chance to hear her in New York.
dft
Lis K. Froding
In <32FBDB...@ma.ultranet.com> John Lynch <jly...@ma.ultranet.com>
writes:
>Daniel Kessler wrote:
>>
>> The story is repellant although the packaging is attractive! There
>> have been times since it was first premiered that it wasn't so
>> popular. That it has become popular today says something about the
>> audiences that like it.
>
>
>There was a thirty-five or forty year wait at the Met between the
>performances with Maria Jeritza and Giacomo Lauri-Volpi in the late
>Twenties or early Thirties and those with Birgit Nilsson and Jussi
in
>the Fifties to my knowledge--I was stationed in Verona and kept
checking
>the papers for performances but they were always a couple of hundred
>miles away. And there was a recording of the opera with Callas in the
>title role and Schwarzkopf as Liu in the Fifties. I think it took the
>Zefirelli extravaganza at the Met and Pavarotti's interminable
>repetition of Nessun dorma to bring the opera to its present
>popularity among the unwashed.
>John Lynch
I seem to recall that NYCO had a production going for a number of years
prior to the Met's Zeffirelli extravaganza.
Lis
Kentd49183
James Jorden writes: >>>Consider it a tribute to the remarkable gifts of
Diana Soviero (who
sings Nedda in the current revival) that I never noticed either the tank
top or the acrobat wearing it!<<<<<
I didn't notice the tank top either. And I'm usually on a sort of
autopilot alert for visuals of that sort. D.S. *was* compelling.
Kent
doc...@okc.oklahoma.net
In article <01bc1272$886f52a0$LocalHost@first-floor>,
"J. Miller" <mill...@usit.net> wrote:
> Turandot is forced to screech
>out monotonously high tones until well into the second half of the
opera.
Huh? she doesn't even open her mouth until halfway through
the second act!
>Just exactly at what point did Puccini lay down his pen?
Puccini wrote through Turandot's line "la mia gloria e finita"
though the 8 measures for the kiss are not his, Alfano replaced
Puccini's sketch with his own music. That is the point at which
the opera begins to appear incoherent.
J. Miller
doc...@okc.oklahoma.net wrote in article <5do860$5...@dallasI5.dallas.net>...
> In article <01bc1272$886f52a0$LocalHost@first-floor>,
> "J. Miller" <mill...@usit.net> wrote:
>
> > Turandot is forced to screech
> >out monotonously high tones until well into the second half of the
> opera.
>
> Huh? she doesn't even open her mouth until halfway through
> the second act!
>
JM
Joseph Nachman
Peter Landers (lan...@sdsp.mc.xerox.com) wrote:
: In _Opera as Drama_, Joseph Kerman gives four paragraphs to his
: continued assault on Puccini, directing all his venom this time
: at TURANDOT. Here are some choice snippets:
(snip)
: . (*groan!* you should see what he says about
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: TOSCA! I want to grab him by the lapels and say "Leave the saints
^^^^^
: alone!)
: Pete L.
"That shabby little shocker" - that's what he says, and isn't this
the most apt description of this work!
Joseph
James Jorden
Joseph Nachman wrote:
> [Kernan calls "Tosca"] "That shabby little shocker" - that's what he
> says, and isn't this the most apt description of this work!
Well, no. Kernan here and elsewhere in his thought-provoking but IMO
highly overrated book commits the fallacy of insisting that any opera
that does not meet his own definition of excellence is therefore bad and
unworthy.
Puccini was not trying to create either "Don Giovanni" or "Die Walkure";
he was writing an exciting melodramatic entertainment, and I think he
succeeded admirably. When you compare "Tosca" to its contemporaries
like "Fedora" or "Andrea Chenier", you see just how skillful a craftsman
Puccini was: the action never sags, the music is always vivid and
exciting, and you even overlook certain gaping holes in plot and
continuity Puccini's librettists left unfilled.
When I see one of the finer films of Alfred Hitchcock, say, "Psycho" or
"Notorious" or "Rebecca", I am entertained and excited, dazzled by the
odd viruouso effect, and sometimes moved by individual artists'
performances. That was Hitchcock's not ignoble intent, one he fulfills
handily. I do not think it is fair to carp, "But this is nowhere near so
important a work of art as 'Rules of the Game.'"
ed waffle
In <3305EC...@ix.netcom.com> James Jorden <jjo...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>Joseph Nachman wrote:
>
>
>> [Kernan calls "Tosca"] "That shabby little shocker" - that's what he
>> says, and isn't this the most apt description of this work!
>
>Well, no. Kernan here and elsewhere in his thought-provoking but IMO
>highly overrated book commits the fallacy of insisting that any opera
>that does not meet his own definition of excellence is therefore bad
and
>unworthy.
>
>Puccini was not trying to create either "Don Giovanni" or "Die
Walkure";
>he was writing an exciting melodramatic entertainment, and I think he
>succeeded admirably. When you compare "Tosca" to its contemporaries
>like "Fedora" or "Andrea Chenier", you see just how skillful a
craftsman
>Puccini was: the action never sags, the music is always vivid and
>exciting, and you even overlook certain gaping holes in plot and
>continuity Puccini's librettists left unfilled.
In the Preface to the new and revised edition, (1988) Kerman
discusses some of the reactions to his "shabby little shocker"
description of Tosca, most notably Mosco Carner and Peter Conrad. I
suggest that readers of "Opera as Drama" may want to move on to
Conrad's "Songs of Love and Death", a collection of essays that has
some gems (and some really dull stuff).
Kerman writes in the new edition, that "The deletion of many of the
spot judments in the original ...can be seen as a further response to
the climate of today's criticism, which is so much more hospitable to
interpretation than to evaluation." Kerman is right, but for the wrong
reasons.
ECW
doc...@okc.oklahoma.net
In article <3305EC...@ix.netcom.com>,
James Jorden <jjo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Joseph Nachman wrote:
>
>
>> [Kernan calls "Tosca"] "That shabby little shocker" - that's what he
>> says, and isn't this the most apt description of this work!
>
of meaningful musical analysis. If one of his central conceits is that
the drama must be in the music for something to be called opera, than he is
not justified in evaluating without doing a detailed musical
analysis to demonstrate the reason behind his judgment.
his taste is one thing, but it is not research. nor is it demonstrably true,
rather the opposite is the case if the piece is studied with an open and acute
mind.
Linda B. Fairtile
>his taste is one thing, but it is not research. nor is it demonstrably true,
>rather the opposite is the case if the piece is studied with an open and acute
>mind.
Exactly. In fact, in the course of researching my current book project, which
involves reading everything ever written about Puccini, I have found more
complex, detailed, and thoughtful analyses of Tosca's music than of any
other Puccini opera. It could be that the opera's "anti-intellectual"
reputation, fostered not only by Kerman but also by a number of Italian
writers who valued its visceral approach above all else, represents a
challenge to scholars. Or it could be that there really *is* something there.