La donna e mobile .....offensive or no
James Wang
Greetings, everyone!
I'm new to the group, so please no flames til the second post!
I was discussing favorite recordings with a woman friend and la donna
e mobile came up. I got the impression that women MAY find the aria
a bit offensive. Is this true? Just how bad is fickle supposed to
be, anyway?
--- James
Bobschaaf
Don't worry about it! The ditty expresses the Duke's attitude, not
Verdi's.
Since said Duke is a rapist, and an otherwise thoroughly reprehensible
character, his trashing of women in song is the least of his sins.
Then again, Catullus wrote that what a woman says in love should be
"written
on the wind and on the rushing waters." We're dealing with art here, and
some
art offends. Big deal.
cheers,
Bob Schaaf
Johannes Roehl
quad...@next05pg2.wam.umd.edu (James Wang) wrote:
>Greetings, everyone!
>
> I'm new to the group, so please no flames til the second post!
>I was discussing favorite recordings with a woman friend and la donna
>e mobile came up. I got the impression that women MAY find the aria
>a bit offensive. Is this true? Just how bad is fickle supposed to
>be, anyway?
The Duke of Mantova is one of the worst chauvinistic, sexist assholes opera has
ever seen! (I really hate him when Rigoletto discovers, because he hears him
singing again, that he has killed his own daughter....)
He is not supposed to sing a song which is PC ! Just look, what he is doing, he
seduces or rapes women after he had their husbands imprisoned...
>--- James
--
===============================================================================
Johannes Roehl At night, they enter at Nepal
Department of Physics And pierce the lover and his lass
University of Washington From underneath the bed - you call
Email: ro...@u.washington.edu It wonderful; I call it crass
-John Updike
===============================================================================
Elizabeth Finkler
In <4m80gj$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> bobs...@aol.com (Bobschaaf)
writes:
>> I was discussing favorite recordings with a woman friend and la
donna
>> e mobile came up. I got the impression that women MAY find the aria
>> a bit offensive. Is this true?
>
>Verdi's.
>Since said Duke is a rapist, and an otherwise thoroughly reprehensible
>character, his trashing of women in song is the least of his sins.
>
>
>
>
>
>
This made me think back to a "Rigoletto" I heard performed by the
now-defunct Pennsylvania Opera Theater, which performed all operas in
English. The translation was done by the artistic director, Barbara
Silverstein, and the first few lines came out...
"Women are idiots,
False and fictitious,
Always capricious
In their affections..."
In a local radio interview, Ms. Silverstein remarked that for all its
charm, "La donna e mobile" "really is a nasty song."
But then again, Gilda gets abused in one way or another by just about
everyone in her life, doesn't she.
Liz
Santa Clara
Lisa R. Hirsch
quad...@next05pg2.wam.umd.edu (James Wang) wrote:
>Greetings, everyone!
> I'm new to the group, so please no flames til the second post!
>I was discussing favorite recordings with a woman friend and la donna
>e mobile came up. I got the impression that women MAY find the aria
>a bit offensive. Is this true? Just how bad is fickle supposed to
>be, anyway?
>--- James
I try not to get too incensed over sexism in 19th and 18th C. operas -
their composers and librettist were men of their time, and you can
hardly hold them to 20th C. standards of behavior and thought. (I do
find 20th C. analytical methods (feminist, Marxist, whatever)
appropriate to use as tools for examining older artworks, however.)
As regards "La donna e mobile:" I see some irony in these words being
put in the mouth of the Duke of Mantua.
-- Lisa
Marcello Tava
James Wang wrote:
>
> Greetings, everyone!
>
> I'm new to the group, so please no flames til the second post!
> I was discussing favorite recordings with a woman friend and la donna
> e mobile came up. I got the impression that women MAY find the aria
> a bit offensive. Is this true? Just how bad is fickle supposed to
> be, anyway?
>
> --- James
The aria wants to be as offensive as possible, both in the lyrics and in
the music. Verdi wrote an unusually trivial theme to send the message of
a vulgar man that illustrates his vulgar philosphy about women and love.
Verdi also chooses to use this trivial theme when he makes Rigoletto
realize that the Duca is still alive. So Rigoletto's disappointment is
extreme because he's facing the Duca's shadow singing his worst song.
I've seen a Rigloetto here in Stuttgart the 3rd of March 1996 and the
regist chose to make the Duca piss during "La donna e' mobile" song.
Very impressive.
Marcello.
mad...@ic3.ithaca.edu
> Greetings, everyone!
>
> I'm new to the group, so please no flames til the second post!
> I was discussing favorite recordings with a woman friend and la donna
> e mobile came up. I got the impression that women MAY find the aria
> a bit offensive. Is this true? Just how bad is fickle supposed to
> be, anyway?
>
> --- James
> >
The song might be a bit offensive - if it wasn't for the fact that the
character singing it was a louse and drunk at the time!
Mariah
Brian Newhouse
Keep in mind that the man singing it is a notorious womanizer and playboy,
and that he's singing a song that he happens to identify with (think of it
as "his song") and that I suppose he would consider an excuse for his own
fickleness--of course, that leads us to the very touchy question of female
sexual autonomy and the "double standard"--not to mention _Cosi fan tutte_
In article <4m7ugj$q...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>,
quad...@next05pg2.wam.umd.edu (James Wang) wrote:
> Greetings, everyone!
>
> I'm new to the group, so please no flames til the second post!
> I was discussing favorite recordings with a woman friend and la donna
> e mobile came up. I got the impression that women MAY find the aria
> a bit offensive. Is this true? Just how bad is fickle supposed to
> be, anyway?
>
> --- James
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
David Pickering
Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.opera: 2-May-96 Re: La donna e mobile
....... by Brian Newh...@mail.cris
> and that he's singing a song that he happens to identify with (think of it
> as "his song") and that I suppose he would consider an excuse for his own
> fickleness--of course, that leads us to the very touchy question of female
> sexual autonomy and the "double standard"--not to mention _Cosi fan tutte_
It also reinforces the fact that the Duke is an absolute lout which
makes Gilda's self-sacrifice for him all the more tragic.
Dave
dp...@andrew.cmu.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfinished business: May 5, 1996
City of Pittsburgh Marathon
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists
elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
--Calvin & Hobbes
Gerald C. Young
In article <4m7ugj$q...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>, quad...@next05pg2.wam.umd.edu (James Wang) says:
>
>Greetings, everyone!
>
> I'm new to the group, so please no flames til the second post!
>I was discussing favorite recordings with a woman friend and la donna
>e mobile came up. I got the impression that women MAY find the aria
>a bit offensive. Is this true? Just how bad is fickle supposed to
>be, anyway?
>
>--- James
I think that you will find that "flaming" is rare in this news group.
We are quite a genteel bunch. "La Donna e mobile" was intended to be
offensive. It represents the philosophy of the not nice Duke of Mantua
who believes that women were created to make men happy and that his
"love em and leave em" style is appropriate. It has always been a show
stopper as a tenor aria but, yes, it is offensive in content.
Regards,
Gerald C. Young
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Peter Brennan
On May 03, 1996 09:11:43 in article <Re: La donna e mobile .....offensive
or no>, 'David Pickering <dp...@andrew.cmu.edu>' wrote:
>It also reinforces the fact that the Duke is an absolute lout which
>makes Gilda's self-sacrifice for him all the more tragic.
spells it Gilda. She HATES Rigolleto's Gilda. An idiotic wimp who deserves
everything she gets.
Desdemona, though, is a different thing altogether.
Dan Ford
> In a local radio interview, Ms. Silverstein remarked that for all its
> charm, "La donna e mobile" "really is a nasty song."
The same could be said of the singer. What makes Rigoletto such a
marvelous piece of theater is that Verdi & Co made these atrocious people
unfailingly fascinating.
> But then again, Gilda gets abused in one way or another by just about
> everyone in her life, doesn't she.
And she in turn deceives her father and even those unfortunate victims of
society, Sparafucile & Co.
- Dan
Lance Hargis
Lisa R. Hirsch wrote:
>
> quad...@next05pg2.wam.umd.edu (James Wang) wrote:
>
> >Greetings, everyone!
>
> > I'm new to the group, so please no flames til the second post!
> >I was discussing favorite recordings with a woman friend and la donna
> >e mobile came up. I got the impression that women MAY find the aria
> >a bit offensive. Is this true? Just how bad is fickle supposed to
> >be, anyway?
>
> >--- James
>
> their composers and librettist were men of their time, and you can
> hardly hold them to 20th C. standards of behavior and thought. (I do
> find 20th C. analytical methods (feminist, Marxist, whatever)
> appropriate to use as tools for examining older artworks, however.)
>
> As regards "La donna e mobile:" I see some irony in these words being
> put in the mouth of the Duke of Mantua.
>
> -- Lisa
But then, is this issue really worthy of discussion? Opera of this type
is a portrayal...not an endorsement...
Diana Slivinska
David Pickering (dp...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
: Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.opera: 2-May-96 Re: La donna e mobile
: ....... by Brian Newh...@mail.cris
: > and that he's singing a song that he happens to identify with (think of it
: > as "his song") and that I suppose he would consider an excuse for his own
: > fickleness--of course, that leads us to the very touchy question of female
: > sexual autonomy and the "double standard"--not to mention _Cosi fan tutte_
: It also reinforces the fact that the Duke is an absolute lout which
: makes Gilda's self-sacrifice for him all the more tragic.
bear in mind also, the song serves a definite purpose in the drama.
back in my music school days, many singers used to agonize over how a composer
as gifted as Verdi could write such a trite-sounding aria, with that annoying
oom-pah-pah accompaniment. to many of us, it sounded like a hack's version
of a tenor aria.
one of our profs (and i believe he was right) pointed out that Verdi wrote
the "bad aria" that way on purpose--so that it would be instantly recognizable
and instantly identified with the duke, so that when Gilda is killed in his
place in the final act, and you hear the reprise of the aria from offstage,
you realize immediately that the Duke is still, unfortunately, alive, and that
Gilda is dead.
as for the misogynistic statements in the text of the aria, what do you
expect from the Duke? praise for women? it underscores the grossness and
brutality of his character. now if only women sacrificing themselves for
such creeps were *not* such a prominent feature of 19th-century (and even
20th century) life...but that's another thread...
ciao,
--diva
Peter G. Ford
On 6 May 1996 15:48:28 GMT, Diana Slivinska <di...@platinum.nb.net>
wrote:
>David Pickering (dp...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
>: Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.opera: 2-May-96 Re: La donna e mobile
>: ....... by Brian Newh...@mail.cris
>: > Keep in mind that the man singing it is a notorious womanizer and playboy,
>: > and that he's singing a song that he happens to identify with (think of it
>: > as "his song") and that I suppose he would consider an excuse for his own
>: > fickleness--of course, that leads us to the very touchy question of female
>: > sexual autonomy and the "double standard"--not to mention _Cosi fan tutte_
>
>: It also reinforces the fact that the Duke is an absolute lout which
>: makes Gilda's self-sacrifice for him all the more tragic.
>
>bear in mind also, the song serves a definite purpose in the drama.
A quick look around the Palazzo del Te in Mantua should convince
you that Verdi's portrayal of the Duke is very, very tame compared
to the historical Gonzaga family. Leave the kids at the hotel.
--
Peter G. Ford
<p...@space.mit.edu>
Pasquale J. Di Pillo
In <4ml70c$b...@news.nb.net> di...@platinum.nb.net (Diana Slivinska)
writes:
>
<<< SNIP, SNIP>>>
to many of us, it sounded like a hack's version
>of a tenor aria.
>
>one of our profs (and i believe he was right) pointed out that Verdi
wrote
>the "bad aria" that way on purpose--so that it would be instantly
>ciao,
>
>--diva
WHOA! WHOA!, A bad aria?? You've got to be kidding.
La Donna e Mobile is a such great tune. When I was growing up, it was
on everyone's lips and was thought of as represantative of all Italian
opera songs. I once read somewhere that Verdi wouldn't let the opera
musicians see the music at the rehearsals for the premiere of Rigoletto
until the very last minute so the tune would not be leaked out. He knew
that people would be humming it in the streets and that's exactly what
happened.
Pat Di Pillo
Carmen Z. Catoni
A word pro males:
Well, Fr. Lorenzo da Ponte wrote "In uomini, in soldati" for Cosi fan
Tutte. This was earlier.
HAPPY LISTENING!!!
Luis A. Catoni
Miami, Fl.
Carmen Z. Catoni
What was impressive?
Carmen Z. Catoni
Carmen Z. Catoni
The best translation of this aria I've ever seen!!! (Doesn't mean I share
the ideas expressed)
Marcello Tava
Carmen Z. Catoni wrote:
>
> What was impressive?
>
> HAPPY LISTENING!!!
>
> Luis A. Catoni
>
> Miami, Fl.
The man who pissed.
HAPPY Watching!!!
Marcello.
Marcello Tava
Pasquale J. Di Pillo wrote:
>
>
> WHOA! WHOA!, A bad aria?? You've got to be kidding.
>
> La Donna e Mobile is a such great tune. When I was growing up, it was
> on everyone's lips and was thought of as represantative of all Italian
> opera songs. I once read somewhere that Verdi wouldn't let the opera
> musicians see the music at the rehearsals for the premiere of Rigoletto
> until the very last minute so the tune would not be leaked out. He knew
> that people would be humming it in the streets and that's exactly what
> happened.
>
> Pat Di Pillo
If Verdi would have written a great tune or a wonderful aria to put it
on the mouth of the Duca, he would have "only" been a writer of great
tunes and wonderful arias, and not VERDI. Like in plays bad characters
express themselves by means of bad words, in Verdi's operas bad
characters must express themselves by means of bad words and (sometimes,
here's an example) easy, trivial tunes (I can't say La donna e' mobile
is bad).
Your informations concerning the rehearsal are right but they mean
only that Verdi thought the theme so easy to learn that everybody could
memorize it even after a single listening. And that was what actually
happened. He himself could have heard it in a street or in a bar (why
not?)
At the same time he was jealous about that tune because trivial doesn't
necessarily mean "easy-to-compose".
Finally, I don't think that popularity must necessarily mean greatness.
In the last fifty years a lot of people in Italy were humming in the
streets a lot of popular tunes. And very few of them were great.
Marcello.
Dean Giustini
An additional point to your discussion about Verdi is that Italians
respond to the music because it a) has a rhythmic drive and forward
propulsion and b) it is allied to stories of great human drama. The
Italian melodies are "easy to learn" as you state it, but more importantly
they evoke from the psyche so much identification of the character and his
predicament. One of the reasons "La donna" is so popular is also because
it expresses sentiments of the Italian male, his feelings for women and
his innate sexual drives.
Verdi should never be trivialized as a mere melodist. He conceived the
idea of "music drama" before Wagner. His art is an integrated whole.
Dean Giustini "A baritone in Calgary Opera"
Roberto Perli
> If Verdi would have written a great tune or a wonderful aria to put it
>on the mouth of the Duca, he would have "only" been a writer of great
>tunes and wonderful arias, and not VERDI. Like in plays bad characters
>express themselves by means of bad words, in Verdi's operas bad
>characters must express themselves by means of bad words and (sometimes,
>here's an example) easy, trivial tunes (I can't say La donna e' mobile
>is bad).
But, I should point out, not all Duca's arias are bad or trivial. He has three
in the opera, two of which are indeed quite trivial (La donna e` mobile and
Questa o quella); but he also has "Parmi veder le lagrime", which I regard as
a very noble aria. Could we interpret this as evidence that also the Duca, in
the mind of the composer, was capable of having true feelings, although for a
very short moment? Maybe the Duca really liked Gilda, until he met
Sparafucile's sister. In a sense the Duca himself is "mobile" in his feelings
(not only in his actions), not just "la donna", as he appears to think.
Just a thought. Please don't flame me.
Regards
Roberto
August Helmbright
Dean Giustini <gius...@acs.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
[cut]
>Verdi should never be trivialized as a mere melodist. He conceived the
>idea of "music drama" before Wagner. His art is an integrated whole.
>Dean Giustini "A baritone in Calgary Opera"
I came to Verdi relatively late, via his Requiem and Falstaff. When I
was younger, I was almost exclusively a Wagner enthusiast when it came
to opera. Now (at age 42), I realize how much I've been missing out
on. What I am constantly amazed at is the infinite musical and
dramatic variety that Verdi can achieve with modest forces. (I think
it was in B.H. Haggin's Conversations with Toscanini in which he
quotes Toscanini as saying that Wagner achieved great effects with
huge forces in Die Meistersinger, but Verdi managed the same thing in
Falstaff with only three voices). Verdi is certainly one of a handfull
of all time great composers (not just opera composers).
August
Gunawan Ferry Mulyadi Gunawan
In article <4m7ugj$q...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>,
James Wang <quad...@next05pg2.wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>Greetings, everyone!
>
> I'm new to the group, so please no flames til the second post!
>I was discussing favorite recordings with a woman friend and la donna
>e mobile came up. I got the impression that women MAY find the aria
>a bit offensive. Is this true? Just how bad is fickle supposed to
>be, anyway?
>
>--- James
Not really, considering it's put on the mouth of a silly count.
Anyway, I'm a guy, so I don't know much about a woman's feelings. But I
think women will find Die Zauberfloete much more offensive ( one of my
friend got so offended that she refused to hear it again despite her
*obnoxious* fondness of Mozart and *many* really charming moments of
the opera ).
Anyway, I just don't really care about that kind of stuff. Es ist mir
doch total Wurst. Hey, the composers composed it at the time when the
pieces were composed. Time's changed, hasn't it?
Nur mein 2 Pfennig,
Johannes Roehl
per...@ssc.sas.upenn.edu (Roberto Perli) wrote:
>
>> If Verdi would have written a great tune or a wonderful aria to put it
>>on the mouth of the Duca, he would have "only" been a writer of great
>>tunes and wonderful arias, and not VERDI. Like in plays bad characters
>>express themselves by means of bad words, in Verdi's operas bad
>>characters must express themselves by means of bad words and (sometimes,
>>here's an example) easy, trivial tunes (I can't say La donna e' mobile
>>is bad).
>
>But, I should point out, not all Duca's arias are bad or trivial. He has three
>in the opera, two of which are indeed quite trivial (La donna e` mobile and
>Questa o quella); but he also has "Parmi veder le lagrime", which I regard as
>a very noble aria. Could we interpret this as evidence that also the Duca, in
>the mind of the composer, was capable of having true feelings, although for a
>very short moment? Maybe the Duca really liked Gilda, until he met
>Sparafucile's sister.
He actually got rid of her long, long before he met Sparfuciles sister, but as
far as the music is concerend you are right, when he seduces Gilda there`s no
triviality
In a sense the Duca himself is "mobile" in his feelings
>(not only in his actions), not just "la donna", as he appears to think.
>Just a thought. Please don't flame me.
Why should anybody flame you; you are probably right, the duca is even more
than mobile. He is one of the characters I dislike most in all opera (I kinda
like Don Giovanni, don`t know why), he is a womanizer, a rapist, a dictator and
never pays for it...
>Regards
>
>Roberto
Marcello Tava
Dean Giustini wrote:
>
> An additional point to your discussion about Verdi is that Italians
> respond to the music because it a) has a rhythmic drive and forward
> propulsion and b) it is allied to stories of great human drama. The
> Italian melodies are "easy to learn" as you state it, but more importantly
> they evoke from the psyche so much identification of the character and his
> predicament. One of the reasons "La donna" is so popular is also because
> it expresses sentiments of the Italian male, his feelings for women and
> his innate sexual drives.
>
> idea of "music drama" before Wagner. His art is an integrated whole.
>
> Dean Giustini "A baritone in Calgary Opera"
I concur with what you wrote about Verdi. But, as an Italian male, let
me feel "La donna e' mobile" not representative of my feelings towards
women. (Did he rape Gilda or not?)
Marcello.
Johannes Roehl
gun...@math.wisc.edu (Gunawan Ferry Mulyadi Gunawan) wrote:
>In article <4m7ugj$q...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>,
>James Wang <quad...@next05pg2.wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>>Greetings, everyone!
>>
>> I'm new to the group, so please no flames til the second post!
>>I was discussing favorite recordings with a woman friend and la donna
>>e mobile came up. I got the impression that women MAY find the aria
>>a bit offensive. Is this true? Just how bad is fickle supposed to
>>be, anyway?
>>
>>--- James
>
>Not really, considering it's put on the mouth of a silly count.
>Anyway, I'm a guy, so I don't know much about a woman's feelings. But I
>think women will find Die Zauberfloete much more offensive ( one of my
>friend got so offended that she refused to hear it again despite her
>*obnoxious* fondness of Mozart and *many* really charming moments of
>the opera ).
what is wrong with the Zauberfloete in this aspect ?
>Anyway, I just don't really care about that kind of stuff. Es ist mir
>doch total Wurst. Hey, the composers composed it at the time when the
>pieces were composed. Time's changed, hasn't it?
>Nur mein 2 Pfennig,
>
--
===============================================================================
Johannes Roehl Books! 'tis a dull and endless
strife:
Department of Physics Come, hear the woodland linnet,
University of Washington How sweet his music! on my life,
Email: ro...@u.washington.edu There's more of wisdom in it.
-W.Wordsworth
===============================================================================
Carmen Z. Catoni
>I concur with what you wrote about Verdi. But, as an Italian male, let
>me feel "La donna e' mobile" not representative of my feelings towards
>women. (Did he rape Gilda or not?)
>
> Marcello.
He certainly did, at least sychologically. Even if, at that moment she
would have agreed to the act, that's how she feels moments later when her
father, asking her "E tu, a che piangi" and she answers "A l'onta, padre
mio"
HAPPY LISTENING!!
Hans C Hoff
Johannes Roehl asked what was wrong with the Zauberfloete with respect
to its attitude towards women.
In the text, quite a lot actually. Just two rather blatant examples of
male chauvinism come to my mind off hand:
Firstly the Speaker's words to Tamino: "Ein Weib tut wenig, plaudert
viel, Du Juengling glaubt das Zungenspiel" (women are good-for-nothing
chatterboxes; do you, youngster, believe their chatter?).
Then Sarastro says to Pamina (as she tells him that her mothers name is
dear to her) that the Queen is a proud woman and that 'Ein Mann muss
eure Herzen leiten, denn ohne Ihn pflegt jedes Weib aus ihrem
Wirkungskreis zu schreiten' (Women must be led by men, or else they are
apt to leave their walk in life.).
Hardly women's lib this. But to take offence of die Zauberfloete (of all
things) seems a rather serious misconception of the opera itself and its
prevailing spirits both of noble humanity and joyous tomfoolery, and
IMHO also shows a serious lack of appreciation for the timespirit of its
origin. The mentioned remarks (and a few other ones in a similar vein)
are immaterial to the action and the role of women is not a prevailing
topic; those remarks are rather unimportant snippets, probably in
accordance with masonic teachings of that age, and cannot conceivably
have any bearing whatsoever upon the views and attitudes of contemporary
people regarding sexual equality !
For anyone to react in this way IMHO thus is quite pointless (not least
because you then bereive yourself of a wonderful experience).
HCH
-------
Wer viel wagt, gewinnt oft viel !
Papageno.
Hans C Hoff
Hans C Hoff
Suz...@indirect.com
Johannes Roehl <roehl> wrote:
But I
>>think women will find Die Zauberfloete much more offensive ( one of my
>>friend got so offended that she refused to hear it again despite her
>>*obnoxious* fondness of Mozart and *many* really charming moments of
>>the opera ).
>what is wrong with the Zauberfloete in this aspect ?
What I find "wrong" with it is the plot-line, which some analysts have
pointed out shows signs of having been deliberately altered from a
fairly standard Mom-sends-hero-to-save-daughter-from-wicked-dad story
line to one in which Mom becomes this awful, unnatural mother and Dad,
who is full of stuffy baloney and sterile ritual about "wisdom" and
authority and how "manly" you have to be to earn them (so that you can
properly direct your poor, weak, silly, chatterbox of a wife properly)
who becomes the good guy. Altogether, the story can be read as deeply
demeaning to women in general -- and it's TOO LONG. Ah, Mozart, too
many notes . . . some of them stunningly beautiful, but this is an
opera that I have left before the end because I was worn out with it.
The fact that its "meaning," such as it is, is so blithely insulting
to me as a female human being certainly doesn't *help* the situation,
if you see what I mean.
But look what Tolstoi did to his lively and delightful Natasha at the
end of WAR AND PEACE? Women who are drawn to the artistic products
of a culture consistently framed in terms of their own belittlement
and demonization from its inception have to find their own means of
dealing with the emotions this provokes (and yes, of course there have
been exceptions; but the canon in any art is not made of those
exceptions but of the rule). The first job of course is to realize
that their unease and discomfort is not a fluke, it is a gut-reaction
to the fact that there really is a problem here. Not so easy, since
the culture has always been presented as if there were not one, and
until pretty recently that opinion has not been challenged with any
significant success.
Anybody interested in looking at opera in this light could do much
worse than read Catherine Clement's classic book on the subject,
OPERA, OR THE UNDOING OF WOMEN, first published in 1979; it's a
breathless, brilliant, illuminating read.
SMCharnas
Valmoose
Whoa!!!!
Die Zauberflote is mythology/fairy tale. It can't be read as a
sociological/psychological text. Hint: all the characters are archetypes,
aspects of one human being. Hence, it's timelessness. One must escape
the blinders and prejudices of one's own time to understand it as it's
meant to be understood.
Val Vadeboncoeur
ValMoose
"We don't see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
Anais Nin
Gunawan Ferry Mulyadi Gunawan
>what is wrong with the Zauberfloete in this aspect ?
>
Then you must have interpret this passage ( I think there are others,
but I don't quite remember ) differently from my and my friend's
interpretation ( or maybe you have a buggy translation? ):
SPRECHER: "Ein Weib hat also dich berueckt? Ein Weib tut wenig, plaudert
viel. ..."
( Speaker: "A woman has thus deceived you? A woman does little, chats much ).
As I said, I don't really care what the masons thought of women in the
18th century, I just enjoy the opera. I certainly am not of the same opinion
as the abovesaid quotation.
Ferry
Mark Hannon
I would say in most operas I know of a woman has the most
heroic (heroineic?) role.
Agreed 90 percent of the time they end up dying sad deaths but
the drive of most operas is to make the lead woman the
most sympathetic character
while highlighting injustices served on them by men
and considering the time at which
these operas were wrote I would say that operatic heroines
have a greater role in the action than the impact of
women in Western society at that time.
Just my opinion in the hope of starting some discussion
Robert Sheaffer
In article <319469...@sn.no>, Hans C Hoff <hch...@sn.no> wrote:
>Johannes Roehl asked what was wrong with the Zauberfloete with respect
>to its attitude towards women.
>
>things) seems a rather serious misconception of the opera itself and its
>prevailing spirits both of noble humanity and joyous tomfoolery, and
Gosh, it's a good thing that you people are worrying about trivial
stuff like that, and aren't paying attention to the *really* offensive
stuff. Like, for example, Monostatos' aria....
"ein Schwartzer hasslich ist..."
You can't impose late twentieth-century sensitivities on 18th
century works. To do so is to misread them completely.
--
Robert Sheaffer - Robert....@siemensrolm.com - Skeptical to the Max!
Robert Pryor
In article <4mtro1$d...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
Johannes Roehl <roehl> wrote:
>> But I
>>think women will find Die Zauberfloete much more offensive ( one of my
>>friend got so offended that she refused to hear it again despite her
>>*obnoxious* fondness of Mozart and *many* really charming moments of
>>the opera ).
>
it can certainly be argued that the opera we have from Schikaneder and
Mozart represents the triumph of the masculine principle over the
feminine.
Pamina is removed from the influence of Konigin/mother/night/evil for her
own good by Sarastro/father/light/good, male youth, Tamino, is led away
from the dangerous treacheries of the female/emotional/creative/chaos by
instruction in appropriate male/rational/preservative/ordered behaviour
despite the cost to its female companion and by the end the phallic flute
is restored to its rightful male lineage from its usurpation by the
castrating forces of darkness
this is only one of many forms of interpretation (try any mixture of
Freudian/Feminist/Marxist etc for something interesting) but i think it
is plain that it is reasonably easy to sustain a reasonable argument for
Zauberflote being triumpantly, gloriously masculinist
those interested might look to 'Family Affairs, or Parents Terribles' in
Catherine Clement's 'Opera, or the Undoing of Women' (Virago), just like
a good opera you don't have to buy it all but it makes you think
robert
Bart Thomas
In article <4nau2l$1...@italy.eng.sc.rolm.com>,
shea...@italy.eng.sc.rolm.com (Robert Sheaffer) wrote:
> Gosh, it's a good thing that you people are worrying about trivial
> stuff like that, and aren't paying attention to the *really* offensive
> stuff. Like, for example, Monostatos' aria....
>
> "ein Schwartzer hasslich ist..."
Of course, Monastatos (like Otello) was NOT a "sub-saharan african", or
whatever better term you may prefer for a possible ancestor of an african
american, but a moor, or moslem, a member of a group of people who had
enspired, both fear (look at the moslem invasions of eastern europe), and
curiosity, as in Turco in Italia, and Abduction from the Seraglio.
> You can't impose late twentieth-century sensitivities on 18th
> century works. To do so is to misread them completely.
>
Couldn't agree more!
---> Bart
Larisa Migachyov
: In article <4mtro1$d...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
: Johannes Roehl <roehl> wrote:
: >> But I
: >>think women will find Die Zauberfloete much more offensive ( one of my
: >>friend got so offended that she refused to hear it again despite her
: >>*obnoxious* fondness of Mozart and *many* really charming moments of
: >>the opera ).
Really? What is so offensive about it? True, the plot is rather tangled
and has a lot of Masonic symbolism in it that a non-Freemason cannot
really understand, but offensive? I don't think so. I'd think a
feminist would find _Cosi Fan Tutte_ much more offensive. :) Me, I just
listen to Mozart's heavenly music and enjoy it.
Larisa
James Kahn
In article <5116f2$4...@epx.cis.umn.edu>,
Sarastro makes a couple of negative generalizations about women.
(One of the lines, toward the end of Act 1, is often intentionally
mis-translated into English, as if our tender ears can't handle it.) But
really, can't anyone sort out the message (if any) of an entire opera, or
of the composer, from particular statements by one of its characters?
If someone is going to react so strongly to something so minor, how
is he or she to react about something truly offensive. Johannes should
politely suggest to his friend that she get some sense of proportion.
The same goes for "Cosi". I don't think the men come off looking
particularly better than the women, and only the shallowest reading
of the opera would see its message as misogynist.
Let's not take these things (or ourselves) quite so seriously.
--Jim
====================================================================
ka...@troi.cc.rochester.edu Department of Economics
http://kahn.econ.rochester.edu University of Rochester
Rochester, NY 14627
Matthew B. Tepper
Larisa Migachyov wrote:
>
> : In article <4mtro1$d...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
> : Johannes Roehl <roehl> wrote:
> : >> But I
> : >>her *obnoxious* fondness of Mozart and *many* really charming
> : >>moments of the opera).
>
> tangled and has a lot of Masonic symbolism in it that a non-Freemason
> cannot really understand, but offensive? I don't think so. I'd think
> a feminist would find _Cosi Fan Tutte_ much more offensive. :) Me, I
> just listen to Mozart's heavenly music and enjoy it.
>
I think some of Sarastro's orations about a woman's "proper place" are
potentially more offensive than even _Cosi_.
On the other hand, the one thing I LIKE about _Zauberflöte_ is
Papageno's realization that, just as there can be such things as black
birds in the world, it is perfectly natural and understandable for there
to be black men as well. In this regard, at least, the bird-catching
fool seems more "enlightened" than all the other characters in the
opera, plus the composer and librettists put together!
--
"Robert A. Heinlein -- An incontestably great science fiction writer,
whose social philosophies were as nearly as ludicrous as his politics
were loathsome." -- from _The Tepper's Dictionary_, work in progress
Matthew B. Tepper http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm Quack!
Richard L. Kaye
These, of course, are the descendents of those who put fig leaves
on the Greco-Roman statues at the turn of the century. Art (and
music, of course) are not created in a vacuum, and they will
reflect the style of their time. Our job is to appreciate and
understand the art, not to try to make it reflect OUR own times.
RLK
Hans C Hoff
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> I think some of Sarastro's orations about a woman's "proper place" are
> potentially more offensive than even _Cosi_.
>
> On the other hand, the one thing I LIKE about _Zauberflöte_ is
> Papageno's realization that, just as there can be such things as black
> birds in the world, it is perfectly natural and understandable for there
> to be black men as well. In this regard, at least, the bird-catching
> fool seems more "enlightened" than all the other characters in the
> opera, plus the composer and librettists put together!
Is it at all surprising that the text of ZF (and probably a lot of other
18th century libretti as well) are full of remarks, events and attitudes
that we today consider offensive? With regard to ZF this seems
particularly predictable; it was intended as popular entertainment in
Schikaneders suburban vau-de-ville theatre in Vienna, where the audience
was not very sophisticated even after the standards of the time.
As to Sarastro's remarks about women, they cannot possibly have made any
offense in 1791, considering what was then the prevailing outlook on a
womans place in society. At that time no woman anywhere had the right to
vote, in many very civilized countries women did not even have the right
to possess property; in other countries ownership of what little they
were allowed to possess could be exercized only through the guardianship
of a male relation.
The sentence in the ZF most lacking in present-day Political Correctness
is however probably Monostatos words 'weil ein Schwarzer hasslich ist' -
'because a black man is hideous'. Also this must be seen in the light of
the time when the words were concocted; a negro was in Central Europe at
that time a most exotic creature; there were hardly any negro
inhabitants in any European country, and thus the problem of
discrimination did not exist.
BTW, I believe a lot of black singers have performed in ZF (possibly
even in the part of Monostatos). In Sweden alone two couloured tenors
have sung Tamino's part in recent years (Esaias Tewolde and Christer St.
Hill). They obviously did not mind (and the credibility of a black
Tamino would also be rather dubious if Monostatos' words were considered
of any significance).
To take offence of the original text, even if used today, seem to me to
reveal a total lack of sense both of proportion and of history.
It seems much more justified to take offence by both music and libretto
in Alban Bergs 'Lulu'; this is however probably less PC.
Hans C Hoff
hch...@sn.no
Matthew B. Tepper
Hans C Hoff wrote:
>
> BTW, I believe a lot of black singers have performed in ZF (possibly
> even in the part of Monostatos). In Sweden alone two couloured tenors
> have sung Tamino's part in recent years (Esaias Tewolde and Christer
> St. Hill). They obviously did not mind (and the credibility of a black
> Tamino would also be rather dubious if Monostatos' words were
> considered of any significance).
Indeed, the first opera performance I ever saw had George Shirley as
Tamino.
--
Matthew B. Tepper * Management and IS Consultant
Positive Support Review Inc. * tep...@psrinc.com
World Wide Web site: http://www.psrinc.com/psr.htm
PSR's 1996 IS Compensation Study is now available!
obl...@nonsense.net
On 9 Sep 1996 13:35:30 GMT, miga...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Larisa
Migachyov) wrote:
|: In article <4mtro1$d...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
|: Johannes Roehl <roehl> wrote:
|: >> But I
|: >>think women will find Die Zauberfloete much more offensive ( one of my
|: >>friend got so offended that she refused to hear it again despite her
|: >>*obnoxious* fondness of Mozart and *many* really charming moments of
|: >>the opera ).
|: >
|
|Really? What is so offensive about it? True, the plot is rather tangled
|and has a lot of Masonic symbolism in it that a non-Freemason cannot
|really understand, but offensive? I don't think so. I'd think a
|feminist would find _Cosi Fan Tutte_ much more offensive. :) Me, I just
|listen to Mozart's heavenly music and enjoy it.
I find it mystefying that so many people today seem to have no sense
of history. This stuff was written 200 years ago; why should anyone
expect it to conform to today's standards? It's the same syndrome as
the poster (or posters?) who insist on saying that classical music has
had its day, as though only the present moment exists.
__
I may respect my employer's opinions,
but I don't have to share them.
E-mail to: bob...@taconic.net
(The header may be altered
to foil autospam software.)
Peter L. Kantor
In article <5116f2$4...@epx.cis.umn.edu>, miga...@maroon.tc.umn.edu says...
>
>: In article <4mtro1$d...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
>: Johannes Roehl <roehl> wrote:
>: >> But I
>: >>think women will find Die Zauberfloete much more offensive ( one of my
>: >>friend got so offended that she refused to hear it again despite her
>: >>*obnoxious* fondness of Mozart and *many* really charming moments of
>: >>the opera ).
>: >
>
>Really? What is so offensive about it? True, the plot is rather tangled
>and has a lot of Masonic symbolism in it that a non-Freemason cannot
>really understand, but offensive? I don't think so. I'd think a
>feminist would find _Cosi Fan Tutte_ much more offensive. :) Me, I just
>listen to Mozart's heavenly music and enjoy it.
>
What is offensive about it - to a feminist of the late 20th century -
is this: the whole plot revolves around the way that gender is associated
with positive or negative qualities, So basically Sarastro represents
the male qualities of wisdom and enlightenment, and the Queen of the Night
represents female qualities of deviousness, desire for power (always evil
in women, but not in men, apparently),ignorance, and so on. So Pamina is
kidnapped by the white male power structure (so enlightened that they keep
slaves, which says a lot) in order to be lectured by Sarastro about how
all she really needs is a man to keep her in line and out of trouble.
That's just for a start...then of course, there's the racism...
I notice that many productions have started cutting some of the dialogue
that could be construed as really racist -- they'd done that at the Met
last time I was down there. But it seems like if they started cutting
the sexist lines, there'd be nothing left for the singers to sing...they'd
have to hum;-)
Now, that said, I am a feminist, and I still listen to Mozart (and I DO have
a sense of history, so don't start:-) IMHO, however, any cultural artifact
that has as much a presence in the current culture as a Mozart opera DOES
need to be discussed in the context of the present as well as in the context
of the past. That doesn't mean we should ban Zauberfloete from the stage. But
neither should we dismiss as irrelevantthose issues that surround its
performance in the present.(Things haven't changed enough that we can
afford to.)
There you have it
Pax
Sarah
Douglas Clark
These extraordinary Americans!
--
Douglas Clark Voice: +44 1225 427104
69 Hillcrest Drive, Email: D.G.D...@bath.ac.uk
Bath, Somerset, BA2 1HD, UK Benjamin Press: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~exxdgdc
redrick
da...@delphi.com (Peter L. Kantor) (Sarah?) wrote:
>Now, that said, I am a feminist, and I still listen to Mozart (and I DO have
>a sense of history, so don't start:-) IMHO, however, any cultural artifact
>that has as much a presence in the current culture as a Mozart opera DOES
>need to be discussed in the context of the present as well as in the context
>of the past. That doesn't mean we should ban Zauberfloete from the stage. But
>neither should we dismiss as irrelevantthose issues that surround its
>performance in the present.(Things haven't changed enough that we can
>afford to.)
Hear, hear! A very sensible approach.
If Mozart was a sexist he was simply wrong. The Magic Flute has
many important things to say to our times both philosophically
and musically, but its composer (or librettist) need not be taken
as our Mentor in all things.
BTW, the generally held views of a woman's place in society in
the late 18th century would be unacceptable to all but the most
atavistic today. But the references in the Magic Flute may have
had a more specifically political intent. The late empress Maria
Theresa (1740 to 1780) had held religiously intolerant,
anti-Semitic, and (most important to Masons of the time)
anti-Enlightenment views. These views and their adherents
continued to be associated with her after her death.
Regards, -Rick
--
red...@az.com
Before my death I would like to tell you, the working
people, what I have thought of your oppressed position.
You are compelled to spend all your lives in want and
in heavy labor while others who do no work at all profit
by what you produce. You are slaves of these men,
and it should not be. -Leo Tolstoy
Owen Hartnett
In article <Dxu8zs.7...@bath.ac.uk>, exx...@bath.ac.uk (Douglas
Clark) wrote:
>>Now, that said, I am a feminist, and I still listen to Mozart (and I DO have
>>a sense of history, so don't start:-) IMHO, however, any cultural artifact
>>that has as much a presence in the current culture as a Mozart opera DOES
>>need to be discussed in the context of the present as well as in the context
>>of the past. That doesn't mean we should ban Zauberfloete from the stage. But
>>neither should we dismiss as irrelevantthose issues that surround its
>>performance in the present.(Things haven't changed enough that we can
>>afford to.)
But we might dismiss as irrelevant those issues from the Magic Flute. It's
the intent and the effect that demands scrutiny. Obviously, Mozart was
reflective of the ideals of his day, as we are reflective of those of
ours. The Magic Flute merely reflects the prevailing sentiment. Today, we
regard some of those sentiments as bad, so we also have to judge these
sentiments as to their effect on people of today. I would submit that
Pamina has very little effect as a role model today and our society is
much more likely to be molded by the effect of parental disobedience by
The Little Mermaid than by Pamina's subservience or her mother's tyranny.
So, what should contemporary practice of quasi-sensitive material be?
Obviously, some restraint is needed (the Mikado's "Object all sublime"
comes to mind) so long as the art is not stripped by the censor. Making
Othello anything but a Moor or removing the N-word from Huckleberry Finn,
or making Pamina a valkyrie because we find it more "comfortable" is a
cop-out. Art is meant to be uncomfortable--elevator music is meant to be
comfortable.
-Owen
Micah Freedman
Richard L. Kaye (rk...@world.std.com) wrote:
: reflect the style of their time. Our job is to appreciate and
: understand the art, not to try to make it reflect OUR own times.
I agree with this as far as not taking unreasonable offense goes;
however, art must ALSO be relevant to our times to be worth
viewing/performing. Fortunatly (or un-), our culture has not so
completely changed since the 18th c. that this is a problem. Plus, the
masterworks tend to to speak to universal human issues that rise above
the specific culture in which they were created.
--
Micah
mi...@asci4d.com
James Kahn
In article <51g44v$8...@news2.delphi.com>,
Peter L. Kantor <da...@delphi.com> wrote:
>
>What is offensive about it - to a feminist of the late 20th century -
>is this: the whole plot revolves around the way that gender is associated
Apart from the fact that this is looking at an 18th century work
through 20th century glasses....
The story is part fairytale, so it's "guilty" of the same transgressions
of virtually every fairytale you can think of--the evil stepmother,
the wicked witch, etc. So I don't get too worked up over it, any
more than over Cinderella or Hansel and Gretel. But beyond that,
there's much more. Pamina always strikes me as a fairly stong
character in her own right, hardly a helpless female. And Papageno
effectively pokes fun at the whole thing. While it's true Mozart
was a freemason and surely viewed Sarastro favorably, it's equally
clear to me that Papageno was speaking for him as well. In fact,
if there's a single character we are really supposed to relate to
I'd say it's Papageno, not Sarastro or Tamino.
>That's just for a start...then of course, there's the racism...
I have to admit I haven't studied the libretto in some time, and don't
have it in front of me, but I don't recall any genuinely racist
dialogue (though I'm sure someone will post some examples).
The fact that Monostatos is evil and dark-skinned could be construed
as racist stereotyping, but his own words (lamenting the fact that
no one likes him because of his skin color) make him a little more
human and sympathetic than the usual stock villain. But the biggest
hole in the "racist" theory comes again from Papageno. When he
first sees Monostatos he's startled, having never seen a black man
before. But then he shrugs his shoulders and says something like
"Why not? There are black birds, so why not black people too?"
I'm not suggesting that the opera is making some grand social statement,
and I really don't care much about these things, but it's hard to imagine
a more poignant rebuke of racism than this simpleton shrugging
his shoulders.
>I notice that many productions have started cutting some of the dialogue
>that could be construed as really racist -- they'd done that at the Met
>last time I was down there.
You know, "To Kill a Mockingbird" and "In the Heat of the Night" have
a lot of racist dialogue. Not to mention "Huckleberry Finn". It would
be kind of silly to cut the racist dialogue out of those. I would
prefer the Met treat its audience like mature adults, but I suppose if
there are too many potential audience members who are so immature that
they can't deal with sensitive subjects, I guess I can't blame the Met
for accomodating them. But these people should grow up.
Christine Duncan
>In the referenced article, da...@delphi.com (Peter L. Kantor) writes:
>>In article <5116f2$4...@epx.cis.umn.edu>, miga...@maroon.tc.umn.edu says...
>>>
>>>: In article <4mtro1$d...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>,
>>>: Johannes Roehl <roehl> wrote:
>>>: >> But I think women will find Die Zauberfloete much more offensive
>>
(Comment: It would be nice if people started to realise that women
are individual human beings - some even have functioning brains - who
don't necessarily share feelings and opinions about anything at all any
more than men do. I do not find Zauberflote offensive. I do not find
Cosi offensive. People telling me what I find offensive is offensive. OK?)
>>
>>What is offensive about it - to a feminist of the late 20th century -
>>is this: the whole plot revolves around the way that gender is associated
>>with positive or negative qualities... <snip>
>>
>>So Pamina is kidnapped by the white male power structure...
>
>These extraordinary Americans!
It is good for a laugh, though, you must admit. And it is an interesting way
to approach opera (and literature, art, ballet and so on as well): spot the
bits you decide are offensive after an analysis of their 1990s political
correctness, and share them with the world. Think how bad it will get
when we get to *real* awfulness: people being entombed alive, assassins
being hired to kill people, princesses murdering young men who can't answer
questions, women being seduced and their fathers killed, women murdering
babies, children encountering wicked witches in the forest, nuns being
executed, jealousy and strangulation, incest and mayhem...Offensive,
offensive, offensive!! Stay away!!
Personally I prefer to enjoy the music and the drama, but chacun a son gout.
Christine
Adam A. Ferguson
In article <51skrg$1...@tuan.adacel.com.au>,
I find it ironic that people accuse Herr Mozart of "sexism" when the opera
shows the exact opposite. Who, in fact, leads Tamino through the trials
of fire and water? Pamina! Who can Papageno not survive without?
Papagena. Thus Mozart may appear to be looking down on women, but he is
really trying to show them as almost better than some of the men!
Something to ponder...
Adam A. Ferguson
aafe...@mailbox.syr.edu