Pav high note in "Rigoletto"
Braden Mechley
> I heard a 1971 recording of Rigoletto today with Pav (and Sutherland
> and Milnes). About half-way through the second act there is an
> ensemble--I don't know what it's called--at the end of which the Duke
> rushes off to have his way with Gilda.
This is actually the Duke's often-cut cabaletta (with chorus), "Possente
amor mi chiama." It's cheap music, traditionally omitted in performances,
though at least a verse may make it if the tenor insists or the conductor
actually realizes that leaving it out makes for an awkward musical
scramble (as in TRAVIATA Act Two when "O mio rimorso!" is removed; "No,
non udrai rimproveri" can be excised more easily -- and no one ever
misses it).
> Pav attempted a high note which I think was way above C-- does anybody
> know what note this might have been,
It's a high D (and he does it on his other two recordings too: the film
soundtrack and the Chailly recording; who knows whether he'll squeeze it
out on the much-delayed DG/Met version).
> and whether tenors generally try it--
Alfredo Kraus sings it on his two recordings also (RCA/Solti and
EMI/Rudel), but I can't offhand think of another Duke on a complete set
who does. I'm pretty sure Francisco Araiza ventures it on his Philips
aria recital (no doubt long-deleted). I know that I was semi-surprised
that Nicolai Gedda didn't do it on his complete recording for EMI.
> or if it's in the original score?
No, it's not. The custom whereby a cabaletta ends with a singer taking a
high note and holding it for all s/he's worth only really took hold in
this century. If you look in the scores of all these 19th century Italian
operas, you'll see that virtually all the arias and cabalettas "end low."
(When was the last time you heard a Leonora end "D'amor sull'ali rosee" on
the A-flat in the middle of the treble clef? Or a Violetta do the same at
the close of "Sempre libera"? They're both written that way, but we
virtually never hear them as such ...)
B, who loves interpolated high notes when they're solid
** Braden Mechley ** ele...@u.washington.edu ** Department of Classics **
benzonia
Sutherland and Milnes). About half-way through the second act there
is an ensemble--I don't know what it's called--at the end of which
the Duke rushes off to have his way with Gilda.
Pav attempted a high note which I think was way above C--
does anybody know what note this might have been, and whether tenors
generally try it--or if it's in the original score?
GRNDPADAVE
Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 01:32 EDT
Message-id: <Pine.OSF.3.96b.98072...@saul9.u.washington.edu>
SNIP >>> SNIP
Alfredo Kraus sings it on his two recordings also (RCA/Solti and
EMI/Rudel), but I can't offhand think of another Duke on a complete set
who does.
>>>>>>
which has his best offering of "Possente amor". Sung with the kind of
enthusiasm Kraus invests in it, this aria makes a wonderful effect. It is now
unusual for this aria to be omitted, thereby reversing what had been a
tradition.
==G/P Dave
ho...@my-dejanews.com
attempted a high D, an octave above this.
In article <35BAE0...@bellatlantic.net>,
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Ken B Lane
that follows the "Parmi veder le lagrime".
In the score it is an octave lower.
However, in performances at the Metropolitan Opera the highlight of PAV's Duke
was the d flat above high C at the end of the Duke of Mantua-Gilda duet.
In the score it, the d flat above high C, also, as in the stretta following the
Parmi, is an octave lower than sung by PAV.
Many tenors have sung the same D flat above high C in the duet and also in Il
Trovatore's Act One trio of Manrico, leonora and the Count di Luna, myself
included.
PAV was sensational at his debut in the role of the Duke at the "Met", as was
Sutherland's Gilda.
Benz...@bellatlantic.net The high note PAV sang was a d flat above high C at
the end of the Duke of Mantua-Gilda duet.
In the score it is an octave lower.
Many tenors have sung the same D flat above high C in the duet and also in Il
Trovatore's Act One trio of Manrico, leonora and the Count di Luna, myself
included.
PAV was sensational at his debut in the role of the Duke at the "Met", as was
Sutherland's Gilda.
Benz...@bellatlantic.net The high note PAV sang was a d flat above high C at
the end of the Duke of Mantua-Gilda duet.
In the score it is an octave lower.
Many tenors have sung the same D flat above high C in the duet and also in Il
Trovatore's Act One trio of Manrico, leonora and the Count di Luna, myself
included.
PAV was sensational at his debut in the role of the Duke at the "Met", as was
Sutherland's Gilda. And Milnes, at the time, was at the top of his form.
Kenneth Lane, the Wagnerian Hiawathian
Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey 07034-0131, USA
E-Mail: KenB...@aol.com
My website: WagnerOpera,com where soon recordings of my singing in world
premieres of 6 Wagner songs, including a Lullaby, on the main stage "live" of
Carnegie Hall can be downloaded. The solo program was entitled "WAGNER-The
Epic and The Lyric",Thursday May 28th, 1998, at 8 PM. It will be a 2-CD set on
Valhalla Records obtainable around Christmas time along with three other CDs.
TomKauf2
>This is actually the Duke's often-cut cabaletta (with chorus), "Possente
>amor mi chiama." It's cheap music, traditionally omitted in performances,
>though at least a verse may make it if the tenor insists or the conductor
>actually realizes that leaving it out makes for an awkward musical
>scramble (as in TRAVIATA Act Two when "O mio rimorso!" is removed; "No,
>non udrai rimproveri" can be excised more easily -- and no one ever
>misses it).
I disagree with his calling the "possente amor mi chiamo" cheap music. It is a
stirring, rousing cabaletta, giving the tenor a good chance to show off his
skills. I would characterize it as exciting, when properly sung, as Pavarotti
does.
Now don't misunderstand--I would certainly not term it as "great" music.
But I do agree with the need for the cabaletta (sung at least once) to give
"shape" to the piece, and also agree that the elder Germont's cabaletta in La
traviata comes as close to being dispensable as it is possible for a cabaletta
to get,
Two other cabalettas which I consider essential are Leonora's "Tu vedrai che
amore in teraa", after the miserere, and Amelia's Simon Boccanegra cabaletta
between "Cielo di stelle orbato", and the love duet. The latter was
unfortunately cut by Verdi for the 1881 revision of the opera, during a time
when cabalettas were considered ":passé"--and conductors have not yet cought on
to its' importance in giving shape to Amelia's opening cavatina in Act I.
Without it, the Cielo di stelle orbato" is neither fish nor fowl--too miniscule
to be an aria, and definitely not part of the ensuing duet. With the cabaletta,
the "Cielo di stelle orbato" can be immediately recognizable for what it is--a
tempo di mezzo.
Chhers
Tom Kaufman
GRNDPADAVE
----------------------------------
>I disagree with his calling the "possente amor mi chiamo" cheap music. It is
>a
>stirring, rousing cabaletta, giving the tenor a good chance to show off his
>skills. I would characterize it as exciting, when properly sung, as Pavarotti
>does.
===================
Tom, I shuddered when I saw the word "cheap" used in a message regarding Verdi.
Thanks for setting the record straight.
-
The first time I heard this aria -- totally unexpected -- was in a Tucker /
Gueden / Warren RIGOLETTO in 1951. Tucker sang it with such boyish good spirit
and enthusiasm that I wondered why we had not heard it before. All the cuts
were opened. So I got to hear the full "Ah veglia donna", as well.
-
Del Monaco sings this ditty in the Erede recording (also with the incredibly
charming Gueden).
-
Pavarotti's attempt at the high note (either D or E-flat) sounds -- to me --
rather like a squawk. I think Kraus sang it best in his Mercury recording with
Bastianini and Scotto (and just a tad less well in each of his subsequent
recordings).
-
The aria offers a wonderful contrast to the ensuing (and painful) entrance of
Rigoletto. The "la-ra la-ra", incidentally, is Verdi's idea -- it is not in
Piave's libretto. But with Verdi-Piave it is often difficult to figure the
division of labor because of the way in which Verdi treated his best librettist
(Boito not withstanding).
-
==G/P Dave
Stregata
>Tom, I shuddered when I saw the word "cheap" used in a message regarding
>Verdi.
>Thanks for setting the record straight.
But, Grandpa, Verdi has been accused in many circles as being a "cheap"
composer just because of the repeated use of "oompah-pah" in his music. To
say such a thing is utterly ludicrous, IMO.
Stregata
Stregata
>Tom, I shuddered when I saw the word "cheap" used in a message regarding
>Verdi.
Grandpa: Maybe I did not express myself correctly in my previous message.
What I meant to say was that to accuse Verdi of being cheap because of his use
of "oompah-pah" is utterly ludicrous.
Stregata
Braden Mechley
> I disagree with his calling the "possente amor mi chiamo" cheap music.
> It is a stirring, rousing cabaletta, giving the tenor a good chance to
> show off his skills. I would characterize it as exciting, when properly
> sung, as Pavarotti does.
I see that my use of the word "cheap" has stirred up some negative
response, but I'll stand by it all the same. First of all, surely no one
will submit that this brash piece can stand among Verdi's best cabalettas
-- if it could, it wouldn't have been cut for such a long time. Second,
by "cheap" I don't mean to imply "utterly unenjoyable" -- most cabalettas
(even the horrible Odabella/Foresto duet one in ATTILA or several of those
in MASNADIERI) can be exciting in good hands.
Third, I think we do Verdi a disservice if we imply that all his music is
equally top-drawer; it rather devalues the (staggering) quantity of
first-rate music he _did_ write (including some really good cabalettas).
I don't like putting him (as so often happens with Mozart) completely
beyond any kind of criticism; I respect his contributions too much for
that.
> Two other cabalettas which I consider essential are Leonora's "Tu vedrai
> che amore in teraa", after the miserere,
Here too you mean "essential" in musical terms, right? This too is not
the best piece of music Verdi wrote, by a long shot, but certainly in
great hands (Callas', of course, but also Carol Vaness' -- on her recital
disc, anyway) it has some spring. More important (and I expect that here
I'm riding on Tom's coat-tails), removing "Tu vedrai" means disregarding
Verdi's remarkable reshaping of the usual disposition of the Italian
operatic _scena_.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 16:41 EDT
>Message-id:
><Pine.OSF.3.96b.98072...@saul9.u.washington.edu>
>
>On 26 Jul 1998, TomKauf2 wrote:
>> I disagree with his calling the "possente amor mi chiamo" cheap music.
>> It is a stirring, rousing cabaletta, giving the tenor a good chance to
>> show off his skills. I would characterize it as exciting, when properly
>> sung, as Pavarotti does.
>
>I see that my use of the word "cheap" has stirred up some negative
>response, but I'll stand by it all the same. First of all, surely no one
>will submit that this brash piece can stand among Verdi's best cabalettas
>-- if it could, it wouldn't have been cut for such a long time. Second,
>by "cheap" I don't mean to imply "utterly unenjoyable" -- most cabalettas
>(even the horrible Odabella/Foresto duet one in ATTILA or several of those
>in MASNADIERI) can be exciting in good hands.
>
>Third, I think we do Verdi a disservice if we imply that all his music is
>equally top-drawer; it rather devalues the (staggering) quantity of
>first-rate music he _did_ write (including some really good cabalettas).
>I don't like putting him (as so often happens with Mozart) completely
>beyond any kind of criticism; I respect his contributions too much for
>that.
The problem is the use of your adjective "cheap" to describe the "Possente
amor" aria.
-
To find this characterization offensive does not require one to elevate the
aria to the status of "Di quella pira".
-
There are moments in Verdi's early and middle operas -- usually associated with
banda music - where he intentionally invokes a popular (sometimes referred to
as "vulgar") style. The Bachanalia chorus in the last of TRAVIATA or the
election victory chorus at the end of the prologue of BOCCANEGRA are examples
that come to mind.
-
These pieces constitute a kind of aural scenery. They would be out of place if
they were profound, but thedy are jarring because of the more serious music
they either follow or precede.
-
Now I agree with Tom that the TROVATORE cabaletta, which balances the "D'amor
sul'alee" cavatina, is a lovely piece. It creates a wonderful break following
the the high point of the Miserere and the intense duet with Di Luna that
follows.
-
Woe unto the soprano or impressario who fails to perform this aria now that it
has been allowed to establish itself by the likes of Tebaldi, Callas and Price.
-
TomKauf2
<< I see that my use of the word "cheap" has stirred up some negative
response, but I'll stand by it all the same. First of all, surely no one
will submit that this brash piece can stand among Verdi's best cabalettas
-- if it could, it wouldn't have been cut for such a long time. >>
I think Braden used a rather poor choice of words here. "Cheap" has some
extremely negative connotations. Perhaps, had he said something to the effect
of "Possente amor mi chiamo" is not one of Verdi's most inspired compositions",
or "enjoyable as "Possente amor mi chiamo" may be some opera fans, it is by no
means Verdi's best cabaletta", the hornets would have remained in their nest.
Obviously, no matter how great a composer is, it is impossible for all of his
music to be of an equally high quality. This appllies as much to Mozart, Wagner
or Donizeeti as it does to Verdi. And we can have legitimate differences of
opinion as to what corresponds to the best and to the worst of each composer's
output.
Braden's other point, an implication that "Possente amor" was cut for such a
long time is due to its' intrinsic lack of merti is also worthy of some
discussion. I can think of several other reasons for the cut. But please note
that all of these are nothing more than conjecture on my part---regretfully, I
have too many deadlines to meet to do the necessary research to support any of
them:
a. That it was deemed to hold up the action.
b. That it was cut on some occasion because the tenor involved felt he could
not handle it, and that the cut was made to last.
c. By the late 1850s and certainly early 1860s, cabalettas were found to be
going rapidly out of style. Just consider the frequency of cabalettas in
Stiffelio or Il trovatore, and compare them to the number in Ballo in Maschera
or Forza. Or, if you prefer contrast the 1862 Forza to the 1869 version. It may
well be that this pruning of cabalettas was part of a general attempt to remake
earlier operas with more "modern" ideas.
Tom Kaufman
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 16:41 EDT
>Message-id:
><Pine.OSF.3.96b.98072...@saul9.u.washington.edu>
>
>Third, I think we do Verdi a disservice if we imply that all his music is
>equally top-drawer; it rather devalues the (staggering) quantity of
>first-rate music he _did_ write (including some really good cabalettas).
===================
This is the kind of academic argument that is the opposite of "reductio" ad
absurdam. To say that the music is "not cheap" does not imply that it is first
quality.
-
No one made the claim of this music being "top drawer". Not Tom, nor I, nor
anyone. So you have created a straw man -- an "inflatio" ad absurdam and then
castigated it.
-
It is neat to refute an argument that no one has made. But is it
intellectually honest to do so?
-
==G/P Dave
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 17:43 EDT
>Message-id: <199807262143...@ladder01.news.aol.com>SNIP>>>>SNIP>>>SNIP
>Braden's other point, an implication that "Possente amor" was cut for such a
>long time is due to its' intrinsic lack of merti is also worthy of some
>discussion. I can think of several other reasons for the cut. But please note
>that all of these are nothing more than conjecture on my part---regretfully,
>I
>have too many deadlines to meet to do the necessary research to support any
>of
>them:
>
>a. That it was deemed to hold up the action.
>b. That it was cut on some occasion because the tenor involved felt he could
>not handle it, and that the cut was made to last.
>c. By the late 1850s and certainly early 1860s, cabalettas were found to be
>going rapidly out of style. Just consider the frequency of cabalettas in
>Stiffelio or Il trovatore, and compare them to the number in Ballo in
>Maschera
>or Forza. Or, if you prefer contrast the 1862 Forza to the 1869 version. It
>may
>well be that this pruning of cabalettas was part of a general attempt to
>remake
>earlier operas with more "modern" ideas.
Tom's posting should really be read in its entirety, butI wanted to comment
further on the subject of cuts.
When I first saw RIGOLETTO in 1949 I did not realize how much of Verdi's score
was "edited".
-
Not just an entire number as in "Possente amor" - but even the "Vendetta,
vendetta" cross-talk in the Scene 1 ensemble or much of the Rigoletto / Gilda
duet in Scene 2 or even the little coda to the trio in the Storm Scene.
Two bars here, three bars there. It was a pernicious practice to "tighten"
Verdi's operas.
-
One of the great things that has happened in recent years is the restoration of
this music. No opera suffers more from disfiguring cuts than does LA TRAVIATA.
When I find out that the otherwise fine LUCREZIA BORGIA with Kraus, Caballé,
Perlea is cut, I feel that I have been cheated of Donizetti's art.
-
I am not referring to alternative arias or excisionsd that the composer himself
made. I am in a distinct minority in favoring the 4-act version of DON CARLOS
that Verdi himself devised in 1883-4 as opposed to the 1886 conflation that
restored the original 5-act structure but retained Verdi's most recent
reworkings.
-
The fact that some music HAS been cut by the performing group (not by the
composer) is not, in my judgment, a legitimate reason to perpetuate the cut.
-
==G/P Dave
A T
ridiculous. the duke is so bent into getting gilda , that he invents all
the false notions expressed in the piece. with it he simply wants to
reinforce the prior scene in order to get her to think he is honest. to cut
it is atrocious . problem is not many can sing it ( i have heard a few of
those). from what i have heard, and this is pure hearsay, it had been quite
a while since it had been sung, till master krauss sang it. is this true?
long live tenors that can sing it! (delmonaco, _ _
\ @ /
( )
( )
_\/ \/_ one that did ) hehehehe
Braden Mechley
> extremely negative connotations. Perhaps, had he said something to the
> effect of "Possente amor mi chiamo" is not one of Verdi's most inspired
> compositions", or "enjoyable as "Possente amor mi chiamo" may be some
> opera fans, it is by no means Verdi's best cabaletta", the hornets would
> have remained in their nest.
Is this sort of couching really necessary??? How about: "I know LOTS and
LOTS of people just love 'Possente amor' [in fact, before today I'd never
met a single listener so vociferous on the point], but let me HUMBLY
submit that I think Verdi was having a LESS THAN COMPLETELY BRILLIANT,
WONDERFUL AND INSPIRED day he wrote it; still, I'm so unworthy to touch
the hem of his garment that I really shouldn't criticize"? Better?
And I'm still waiting to learn why any tenor really wants to sing this
piece. Unless he has a high D with which to cap it, it scarcely "shows
off" anything about his voice or his technique. Maybe if someone actually
had the courage and musicianship to venture some decorations on the second
verse? I've never heard any tenor do that with any Verdi cabaletta I can
think of; anybody else?
Braden Mechley
> Third, I think we do Verdi a disservice if we imply that all his music
> is equally top-drawer; it rather devalues the (staggering) quantity of
> first-rate music he _did_ write (including some really good cabalettas).
You wrote:
> This is the kind of academic argument that is the opposite of "reductio"
> ad absurdam. To say that the music is "not cheap" does not imply that
> it is first quality.
Sorry, but I wasn't constructing an "academic argument" (and it's "ad
absurdum," by the way); rather, I was responding to the suggestion (not
Tom's, but I can't remember whose) that the word "cheap" (and, by
implication, anything else implying vulgarity or something less than
wonderful) was just unthinkable in a discussion of Verdi.
> No one made the claim of this music being "top drawer". Not Tom, nor I,
> nor anyone. So you have created a straw man -- an "inflatio" ad
> absurdam and then castigated it. It is neat to refute an argument that
> no one has made. But is it intellectually honest to do so?
Did I miss the point at which rec.music.opera was turned into a formal
academic venue? Were I writing for publication in a major journal or
indeed making a formal protest to an article written in one, I would of
course do so with citations of the various holders of the various points
of view. But in the present context, I don't see what's wrong with
responding to a given post and moving from that to general reflections on
trends actually observed.
In any case, your pretense that no one has ever advanced the idea that a
great composer's work is all wonderful and beyond reproach shows far less
intellectual honesty than anything I've yet written. (Transport yourself
back to the year of the Mozart Bicentennial to see what I mean -- or, more
to the present point, read Ed Rosen's post to the effect that all Verdi's
cabalettas are terrific; it sounds much like his assertions that all
Tebaldi recordings were magnificent and that Franco Corelli was great in
everything he did.)
I'm still puzzled why my OPINION that "Possente amor" is a vulgar piece of
music has caused so many people to act as if I'd said that RIGOLETTO
itself were a piece of junk. Not so: it's one of my very favorite Verdi
operas.
Ed Rosen
<benz...@bellatlantic.net> writes:
>
>I heard a 1971 recording of Rigoletto today with Pav (and
>Sutherland and Milnes). About half-way through the second act there
>is an ensemble--I don't know what it's called--at the end of which
>the Duke rushes off to have his way with Gilda.
>
> Pav attempted a high note which I think was way above C--
>does anybody know what note this might have been, and whether tenors
>generally try it--or if it's in the original score?
This note is a D natural, and of recent tenors, only Alfredo Kraus
attemped it in the theater on a regular basis.
Pavarotti would never attempt a D in public.
Best,
Ed
Ed Rosen
But almost none, save Kraus, have interpolated the unwritten high D at
the conclusion.
I have hear it sung live by Tucker, Carreras. Pavarotti, Leech,
Domingo, Kraus, Alagna, and others.
I think it's a wonderful cabaletta. I think almost every cabalettas
are wonderful. I love them. It's a shame when this piece is cut, as
it often is.
Ed
Ed Rosen<legat...@earthlink.net> for free catalog
Legato Classics, Inc.
http://www.legatoclassics.com
Enrique Eskenazi
<Pine.OSF.3.96b.98072...@saul9.u.washington.edu>,
Braden Mechley <ele...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>This is actually the Duke's often-cut cabaletta (with chorus),
"Possente
>amor mi chiama." It's cheap music, traditionally omitted in
performances,
>though at least a verse may make it if the tenor insists or the
conductor
>actually realizes that leaving it out makes for an awkward musical
>scramble (as in TRAVIATA Act Two when "O mio rimorso!" is removed; "No,
>non udrai rimproveri" can be excised more easily -- and no one ever
>misses it).
No one? I, for one, (whenever the singer is an able one) ALWAYS do!
---
Enrique
eske...@mail.sendanet.es
Io chi sono? Eh, non lo so.
-Nol sapete?
Quasi no.
CLewis2666
the A-flat in the middle of the treble clef? Or a Violetta do the same at
the close of "Sempre libera"? They're both written that way, but we
i'm always disappointed when the soprano doesn't take the high note at the end
of Sempre libera
too many don't these days, including Georghiu
Rost did, bless her!
Charles Lewis from London
A T
the very first line thells you that
"a very powerfull love calls me and i must fly towards it"
. it summarizes the duet. and denotes the intensity
of the duke's( not hernandez) intentions. it is a very important part of the
plot.
GRNDPADAVE
Braden Mechley wrote:
<< But in the present context, I don't see what's wrong with responding to a
given post and moving from that to general reflections on trends actually
observed.
In any case, your pretense that no one has ever advanced the idea that a
great composer's work is all wonderful and beyond reproach shows far less
intellectual honesty than anything I've yet written.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
===
There you go again!
Denying that "Possente amor" is "cheap" is not equivalent to arguing "that a
great composer's work is all wonderful and beyond reproach" . That bogus
extrapolation is your pretense not mine.
-
Your insistance on paraphrasing the rebuttal to your observation in such a
distorted manner is what I drew attention to. Now you may (and do) persist in
ignoring what actually is said by substituting what you find more challengeable
from your point of view. But the fact remains you made a scurrilous charge
quite in keeping with the old snobbism that once was rife against nearly all
Verdi's music. The man, in my view, wrote much great music and some mediocre
music. He wrote no "cheap" music.
-
==G/P Dave
-
PS. I thank you, nonetheless, for your correction of my spelling.
MarkDLew
>piece. Unless he has a high D with which to cap it, it scarcely "shows
>off" anything about his voice or his technique. Maybe if someone actually
>had the courage and musicianship to venture some decorations on the second
>verse? I've never heard any tenor do that with any Verdi cabaletta I can
>think of; anybody else?
I assume that any tenor who really wants to sing this piece is interested in
how it related to the development of the plot and the Duke's character
development, not for any reason of showing off vocally. Believe it or not,
there are some tenors who really are more interested in their character than
vocal display.
mdl
MarkDLew
>i'm always disappointed when the soprano doesn't take the high note at the end
>of Sempre libera
>too many don't these days, including Georghiu
>Rost did, bless her!
A few months ago a friend of mine sang Violetta for a small company and we were
surprised when on opening night she didn't take the high note, even though she
seemed healthy and we'd all heard her do it several times in rehearsal. When I
asked about it, she said (quoting someone, I think), "I'd rather they wonder
why I DIDN'T choose to sing the high note than wonder why I DID." (She said
she could tell her top wasn't quite 100% that night and she knew the E-flat
would come out a little shrill.)
Higher isn't always better. If a singer chooses not to take the high note, it's
a fairly good bet that her high note is one that you didn't want to hear.
mdl
Jack Johnson
fight over what can be won.
How about I arbitrate: Braden, no one is suggesting that Verdi's "work is
all wonderful and beyond reproach." Just because someone says his work is
*not* cheap does not mean that it *is* excellent.
That said: whether work is termed vulgar, mediocre, or cheap is not
especially important or worth fighting about. The point is that the poster
believes the passage not to be good, and certainly not up to the talents of
the composer. If you wanted to fight over word choice and semantics, an
argument could be made for cheap: Cheap here may refer to the expense of
talent and creativity. It may sound as though Verdi just tossed this off,
without expending the thought and creativity he put into other parts of the
opera. In other words, that may be just another way of labeling the
mediocre work of a genius.
GRNDPADAVE wrote in message
<199807271027...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Ed Rosen
around, when the NYCO was doing it complete,in the early-mid 70's. The
tenor was Jose Carreras, and he ornamented to some extent, and sang two
wonderful, unwritten, B naturals. He omitted the D at the end, becasue
that was beyond his range.
I happen to have a private tape, however, made in my house in 1975,
where he sings a full voice, wonderful Db at the conclusion of the Act
1 trio of Trovatore. Ricciarelli was the Leonora, and I was the Di
Luna!
Best,
Ed
Ed Rosen<legat...@earthlink.net>
Legato Classics, Inc.
http://www.legatoclassics.com
>
>And I'm still waiting to learn why any tenor really wants to sing this
>piece. Unless he has a high D with which to cap it, it scarcely
"shows
>off" anything about his voice or his technique. Maybe if someone
actually
>had the courage and musicianship to venture some decorations on the
second
>verse? I've never heard any tenor do that with any Verdi cabaletta I
can
>think of; anybody else?
>
>
Braden Mechley
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 GRNDP...@aol.com wrote:
> But the fact remains you made a scurrilous charge quite in keeping with
> the old snobbism that once was rife against nearly all Verdi's music.
The irony that you, who criticized _me_ for taking one remark as typical
of a broader-sweeping negative trend, have just now done precisely the
same thing with one of my side comments is too delicious for any further
words.
> The man, in my view, wrote much great music and some mediocre music.
> He wrote no "cheap" music.
Obviously this whole mess derives from different understandings of the
word "cheap." Hilarious! Not exactly what I'd have selected as a _parola
scenica_, but never mind ...
Michael Black
>i'm always disappointed when the soprano doesn't take the high note at the end
>of Sempre libera
>too many don't these days, including Georghiu
In Gheorghiu's case, consider yourself blessed that she DIDN'T.
A T
it should be self-explanatory
Ed Rosen
<qcom...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>if anyone wants to hear a hi d try bjoerling's "cujus animam"
>it should be self-explanatory
It may be self explanatory, but it's not a D. It's a Db, which is a
half step lower.
Ed
singerman
consider it as a C sharp ...
Jack Johnson
D natural?
Michael Black wrote in message <35be957...@news.mindspring.com>...
>singerman <noe...@com.net> wrote:
>
>>well, a d is still a d, even if it is a d flat, unless you want to
>>consider it as a C sharp ...
>
>What planet are you on? As any singer can attest, when you reach a
>certain range, a half step is a *HUGE* difference compared to the
>lower part of your range. So, NO, a d flat is still not a d. They
>are completely different when getting that high in the tenor range.
>As a tenor myself, I can personally attest to this.
>Michael Black
>http://www.stairway.org/bjorling/
>"Dolora Zajick Rules!!! Any questions?"
A T
late last night, forgive me!!! it has been 6 years since i last sang it.
regards
_ _
\ @ /
( )
( )
_\/ \/_
Michael Black
Izzy the Nudnick
<jj_a...@jumpnet.com> wrote:
> What is the high note in the roasted swan song in Carmina Burana? Is that a
> D natural?
The roasted swan song?
I thought that was what Brunnhilde sang at the end of "Gotterdammerung."
--
Izzy a Nudnick? Izzy ever!
JDavis6627
>a
>> D natural?
>
>The roasted swan song?
>
>I thought that was what Brunnhilde sang at the end of "Gotterdammerung."
>
>
That was the roasted swantz song.
Jon Davis
"We are all fumbling along . . alone."
Ned Rorem
singerman
Michael Black
>well, i think it is.
You think???! Then you're obviously not a singer or you've never sung
that high.
singerman
>
> You think???! Then you're obviously not a singer or you've never sung
> that high.
Yeah sorry for not knowing everything. I used to be a baryton before and i
didn't care at all what notes tenors sang then. And even now, i completely
don't care about high notes, as long as an aria is sung properly. I mean,
singing is not just about high notes. It is about phrasing well, feelings
and lots of other things. If it were only about high notes, why not just
do your vocal exercices in front of the public. And saying that" i'm
obviously not a singer" because i dare "to think" is completely... (what
ever) Well... it is probably true. i'm not a singer. I just try to be an
artist.
Regards.
Michael Black
> Yeah sorry for not knowing everything. I used to be a baryton before and i
> didn't care at all what notes tenors sang then. And even now, i completely
> don't care about high notes, as long as an aria is sung properly. I mean,
> singing is not just about high notes. It is about phrasing well, feelings
> and lots of other things. If it were only about high notes, why not just
> do your vocal exercices in front of the public. And saying that" i'm
> obviously not a singer" because i dare "to think" is completely... (what
> ever) Well... it is probably true. i'm not a singer. I just try to be an
> artist.
Wow, what eloquent patronizing...blech...no one was debating whether or not
high notes are the end all or whether or not they are valid or not...that's an
entirely different debate. The argument is that once you reach a certain part
of your range, a half step is a huge deal. So for you to say that a d is a d
flat and vice versa is utter arrogance and ignorance on your behalf. Wait
until you start, if you haven't already, that part of your range when you
begin to vocalize on a d flat and d and you will know what I am talking about.
--
David
This is just one listener's opinion, of course, but I think that ALL of the
cabalettas that used to be standard cuts from Rigoletto, Trovatore, and Traviata
are trash:
"Possente amor" (Duke)
"O mio rimorso" (Alfredo)
Germont's cabaletta following "Di provenza"
"Tu vedrai" (Leonora's cab following the Miserere)
This is not a blanket criticism of the cabalettas in these or any other operas.
"Sempre libera" and "Di quella pira," for example, are well motivated dramatically
and musically superior to the above examples. "Possente amor" in particular
strikes me as crude and primitive, although "O, mio rimorso" isn't much better.
Germont's cabaletta is interesting in that its textures and motives are linked to
those in "Di provenza," but it's still a turkey. As elaborate as it is, "Tu vedrai"
is dramatically irrelevant and rhythmically square, and it's especially
disappointing in the context of the deeply moving "D'amor sull'ali" and the truly
original Miserere. How Verdi could append such a conventional cabaletta, an empty
display piece, to such an original tempo di mezzo, I'll never know. A case of
Homer nodding.
-david gable
David
opinion that "Possente amor" is cheap, and I agree that "Possente amor" is cheap.
-david gable
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, Aug 2, 1998 13:34 EDT
>Message-id: <35C4A312...@midway.uchicago.edu>
Now that you have written that, I hope you are relieved.
Fortunately, the aria remains while your critique of it will fade like grafitti
written in disappearing chalk.
==G/P Dave
David
> Now that you have written that, I hope you are relieved.
> Fortunately, the aria remains while your critique of it will fade like grafitti
> written in disappearing chalk.
> ==G/P Dave
No, Rigoletto will not last forever. Life on this planet may be wiped out by
global warming in the next millenium, you don't know how long so-called "classical"
music is going to last, and one day the sun will burn out. In any case, none of us
would ever have heard of Verdi if "Possente amor" was the best he was capable of.
The only reason it survives is because it is embedded in Rigoletto.
If you like extremely primitive melodies accompanied by two or three chords and a
total absence of counterpoint, I suggest you take up rock'n'roll. Personally, I
can't stand music so simple minded I could have written it myself.
-david gable
James Jorden
> If you like extremely primitive melodies accompanied by two
> or three chords and a total absence of counterpoint, I suggest
> you take up rock'n'roll. Personally, I
> can't stand music so simple minded I could have written it myself.
Switch to decaf, okay? A cabaletta is SUPPOSED to have a direct popular
appeal. That means it is best written in a style without any sort of
complexity that engages the intellect, the better to let the purely
kinesthetic effect of the driving rhythm and melodic hooks rouse the
audience to a frenzy.
What a freaking snob you are!
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
latest opera gossip from parterre box:
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre/lacieca.htm
Ed Rosen
I happen to love this cabaletta, as I do just about every cabaletta. If
this makes me simple minded, then so I am.
I recall with great fondness the debut of Alfredo Kraus at the Old Met
in the early months of 1966. We in the audience (at least many of us)
were familiar with his recording of the complete opera with Scotto,
Bastianini (his second recording, with Moffo, Merrill) had yet to be
recorded) and we knew he did this cabaletta complete with an incredible
high D natural at the end.
We were faced with two questions to which we didn't know the answer:
first, would he do the cabaletta? The Met had already done Rigoletto
tht season with other tenors, and with no cabaletta- which was the way
they always did it at that time. So we figured that Kraus wouldn't do
it.
Were we surprised when he didn't leave the stage at the usual time, and
the orchestra launched in the "Possente amor." Some applauded.
Now, the second question loomed. Would he sing the D natural? It
wasn't written, so would the conductor allow it?
Our question was answered: the glorious sound of the tenor voice
soaring into the stratosphere. He did, it was great, and the ovation
was long and loud.
Although this was not a broadcast, some person with great forsight (not
me) was there with a wonderful quality tape recorder, so we can relive
that moment again and again.
Simple minded- hardly! Thrilling is a better adjective.
Best,
Ed
Ed Rosen<legat...@earthlink.net> for free catalog
Enrique Eskenazi
Rosen) wrote:
>I recall with great fondness the debut of Alfredo Kraus at the Old Met
>in the early months of 1966. We in the audience (at least many of us)
>were familiar with his recording of the complete opera with Scotto,
>Bastianini (his second recording, with Moffo, Merrill) had yet to be
>recorded) and we knew he did this cabaletta complete with an incredible
>high D natural at the end.
snip much interesting matter
>Were we surprised when he didn't leave the stage at the usual time, and
>the orchestra launched in the "Possente amor." Some applauded.
>
>Now, the second question loomed. Would he sing the D natural? It
>wasn't written, so would the conductor allow it?
>
>Our question was answered: the glorious sound of the tenor voice
>soaring into the stratosphere. He did, it was great, and the ovation
>was long and loud.
>
He did it as well in Madrid 1989, 33 years later! With a tenor as able
and thrilling as Kraus, cabalettas as 'Possente amor" or "O mio rimorso"
reveal all their power and interest, and is hard not love them
By the way, which was the rest of the cast in that Old Met performance?
---
Enrique
eske...@mail.sendanet.es
Io chi sono? Eh, non lo so.
-Nol sapete?
Quasi no.
TomKauf2
does not like as one of the best available ways to stir up a reaction. Of
course, Braden and David are as entitled to dislike "Possente amor", and
similar cabalettas as others (myseld included) are entitled to like them, and,
naturally, they have a right to use whatever terms they choose to disparage
them. This is not the issue here.. I once made the mistake, quite a few months
ago as describing Boris Godunoff as "unintersting" on r.m.o I had about three
or four IMHOs in that posting, but left it (or an equivalent for my taste)
out of that particular sentence. Wow! did I get a reaction, and I honsetly
don't blame the people who came down on me like a swarm of hornets. I had to
both eat my words (no garlic allowed) and apologize.
Since then, I have learned better, and now, I would never use such words for
music I don't like--nor would I use words such as boring.
There has to be a certain amount of room for differences in taste--although I
really do agree with Braden and David that these cabalettas <I>could be</I>
regarded by some as primitive, obvious, leaving nothing to the imagination, and
lacking profundity.
But, so what??
They are calculated to bring the house down, which they do, when well sung.
They are also helpful to give shape to a musical umber- -in other words, they
close the "barn door".
Cheers
Tom
A T
there will be no electricity though, so learn the parts!
Tom Bacon
I had the pleasure of attending a Master Class given by Lotfi Mansouri, the
General Director of the San Francisco Opera, in which he was working with 4
Merola singers. When talking about a cabelleta he advised the singer, "Let
your personality shine through and don't hurry. This is a time when the
conductor must follow you!"
Tom Bacon
from the outside looking in...
David
> Switch to decaf, okay?
Trust me on this one. I never consume caffeine in any form.
> A cabaletta is SUPPOSED to have a direct popular
> appeal. That means it is best written in a style without any sort of
> complexity that engages the intellect, the better to let the purely
> kinesthetic effect of the driving rhythm and melodic hooks rouse the
> audience to a frenzy.
This is precisely the critical point at issue. Rigoletto is a very powerful
and sophisticated work of art. Which makes it all the more disappointing
when there is suddenly an intrusive cabaletta unmotivated by the action and
on a considerably lower musical plane. If you don't truly appreciate how
someone might raise this objection, then you don't truly appreciate how
aesthetically and dramatically effective and above all how tight the rest of
the opera is.
> What a freaking snob you are!
A snob I emphatically am not. The word snob is derived from the Latin sine
nobilitate (that is: without nobility). Snobbery occurs when one feigns
the taste of those whom one regards as having superior taste (as some of
those who were not nobles once pretended to share the taste of the
nobility). This I never do. My contentious opinions are both honestly
derived and entirely my own. Perhaps you consider me a "freaking elitist."
To that charge I will readily plead guilty. But elitism and snobbery are
two entirely different things, the blurring of this distinction in the
context of contemporary American populism notwithstanding.
-david gable
Ed Rosen
>r
>
>By the way, which was the rest of the cast in that Old Met
performance?
>---
>Enrique
>eske...@mail.sendanet.es
>
It was a wonderful cast- along with Kraus, it was MacNeil, in top form,
and Roberta Peters, also in top form. I believe the conductor was
Molinari-Pradelli- when he was still a fine conductor.
Best,
Ed
Mark D. Lew
dga...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
> A snob I emphatically am not. The word snob is derived from the Latin sine
> nobilitate (that is: without nobility).
Folk-etymology alert!
This is a myth. There is zero evidence that "snob" derives from "sine
nobilitate". On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence which suggests
that use of acronyms and pseudo-acronyms is less than 100 years old,
whereas the word "snob" dates to the late 18th century.
The same applies to "without papers", "for unlawful carnal knowledge" and
half a dozen other phony acronym stories.
mdl
--
Yes, that's right, I finally left AOL.
Jack Johnson
folk-etymology, the one for "hocus pocus." I heard it is an Anglo-Saxon
derivation of a Latin phrase heard in church ("hoc ist . . ."). In other
words, so much mumbo jumbo.
Mark D. Lew wrote in message ...
Enrique Eskenazi
<dga...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>
>This is just one listener's opinion, of course, but I think that ALL of
the
>cabalettas that used to be standard cuts from Rigoletto, Trovatore, and
Traviata
>are trash:
>
>"Possente amor" (Duke)
>"O mio rimorso" (Alfredo)
>Germont's cabaletta following "Di provenza"
>"Tu vedrai" (Leonora's cab following the Miserere)
>
Does this mean that you prefer performances without these cabalette? If
that is the case, we obtain different pleasure of these opera bc. I
always feel a bit of frustration when they're cut (except when the
singers are not up to the task) and do enjoy enormously when they're
well sung...
howar...@vanderbilt.edu
I think it is solid, vigorous Verdi of his middle period. It has the same
quality and character as La donna e mobile, Questa o quella, etc. Maybe you
don't like middle period Verdi. I do find the dance music in the first scene
of Rigoletto below standard. Much of what Bellini and Donizetti wrote can be
called "hack music." Examples: choral music in Norma and Lucia. But these
guys were grinding out operas at amazing speed.
Howard Hood
In article <35C501A9...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
dga...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
> James Jorden wrote:
>
> > Switch to decaf, okay?
>
> Trust me on this one. I never consume caffeine in any form.
>
> > A cabaletta is SUPPOSED to have a direct popular
> > appeal. That means it is best written in a style without any sort of
> > complexity that engages the intellect, the better to let the purely
> > kinesthetic effect of the driving rhythm and melodic hooks rouse the
> > audience to a frenzy.
>
> This is precisely the critical point at issue. Rigoletto is a very powerful
> and sophisticated work of art. Which makes it all the more disappointing
> when there is suddenly an intrusive cabaletta unmotivated by the action and
> on a considerably lower musical plane. If you don't truly appreciate how
> someone might raise this objection, then you don't truly appreciate how
> aesthetically and dramatically effective and above all how tight the rest of
> the opera is.
>
> > What a freaking snob you are!
>
> A snob I emphatically am not. The word snob is derived from the Latin sine
> nobilitate (that is: without nobility). Snobbery occurs when one feigns
> the taste of those whom one regards as having superior taste (as some of
> those who were not nobles once pretended to share the taste of the
> nobility). This I never do. My contentious opinions are both honestly
> derived and entirely my own. Perhaps you consider me a "freaking elitist."
> To that charge I will readily plead guilty. But elitism and snobbery are
> two entirely different things, the blurring of this distinction in the
> context of contemporary American populism notwithstanding.
>
> -david gable
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Wed, Aug 5, 1998 09:05 EDT
>Message-id: <6q9la6$lde$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
>I don't agree that this cabaletta is inferior music and shouldn't be heard.
>I think it is solid, vigorous Verdi of his middle period. It has the same
>quality and character as La donna e mobile, Questa o quella, etc. Maybe you
>don't like middle period Verdi. I do find the dance music in the first scene
>of Rigoletto below standard. Much of what Bellini and Donizetti wrote can be
>called "hack music." Examples: choral music in Norma and Lucia. But these
>guys were grinding out operas at amazing speed.
When Igor Stravinsky wrote of a Verdi aria: "It has more genuine inspiration
than the entirety of Wagner's 'Ring'" -- he was referring not to "Possent amor"
but to "La donna e mobile".
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, but I think it is overstating the
case to put this enthusiastic little aria at the same level as its more
enaging brothers. If it were THAT good, it would have lain dormant for so many
decades.
-
==G/P Dave
Ancona21
<<I've always wondered whether one of my favorite etymologies is a
folk-etymology, the one for "hocus pocus." I heard it is an Anglo-Saxon
derivation of a Latin phrase heard in church ("hoc ist . . ."). In other
words, so much mumbo jumbo.>>
"Hic est corpus," this is the body. 17th-century Puritans, who disparaged the
use of Latin in church as well many other Catholic practices and rituals, were
said to have parodied the Communion phrase thus. More folk than documented,
but it seems convincing.
I believe "Abracadabra" has a similar etymology.
Ancona21
Nemo me impune lacessit
Mark D. Lew
<jj_a...@jumpnet.com> wrote:
> I've always wondered whether one of my favorite etymologies is a
> folk-etymology, the one for "hocus pocus." I heard it is an Anglo-Saxon
> derivation of a Latin phrase heard in church ("hoc ist . . ."). In other
> words, so much mumbo jumbo.
I believe that one is authentic, but I can't confirm it.
mdl
--
Recent change in e-mail address: mark...@earthlink.net