La fanciulla del West
Bernard Gould
'The Heart of Mary land', 'The Girl I Left Behind Me', both
western dramas.Puccini's 'La faniciulla del West', received its
premiere, on 10 December 1910 Metropolitan New York,
with Emmy Destinn, Enrico Caruso,Pasquale Amato, a star
studded cast ,the great maestro, Toscanini was the conductor.
[also the Mets first world premiere]
Except for the big tenor aria.Ch' ella mi creda libero e lontano
[choose your tenor,mine would be Bjoerling] I have never warmed
to this opera .I wondering how this opera is viewed, except for the
Tebaldi,Del Monaco,MacNeil,Tozzi.Capuana, what are the alternative
recordings that do this opera justice.
Regards Bernard
Nash7676
The orchestra writing becomes more and more interesting. I think the best
available recording right now is the Mehta/Domingo/Neblett one, but the Opera
d'oro cheapo with Tebaldi and Barioni is worth a listen, and people rave about
a live fecording with Steber and del MOnaco from the early 1950s. I just don't
know if it's available.
orp...@my-deja.com
Please don't forget the wonderful live recording from La Scala/ 1991
with Mara Zampieri, Placido Domingo and Juan Pons, cond. Lorin Maazel.
This recording is available at SONY S2K 47 189.
Insiders love the recording with Birgit Nilsson and Joao Gibin, cond.
Lovro von Matacic at EMI.
Nilsson is marvellous, the tenor is only a 2nd class singer.
Orphee
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Pietro Rizzo
tenor ever). If you find them I am sure you would enjoy them. The recordings
are from 1956 and 1966. I would recommend the 1956, the casting is better
than the 1966 edition.
4 April 1956
Franco Corelli - Dick Johnson
Gigliola Frazzoni - Minnie
Tito Gobbi - Jack Rance
La Scala - conductor Antonino Votto
LEGATO SRO-506-2
LEGATO LCD 227-2
8 January 1966
Franco Corelli - Johnson
Dorothy Kirsten - Minnie
Anselmo Conzani - Rance
Met - cond. Jan Behr
MELODRAM CDM 27081
Ciao
Piero
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
--
Posted from [195.197.160.28] by way of f43.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.43]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
GRNDPADAVE
I have many recordings. There are several I would recommend.
For sheer panache in terms of sound and conductorial passion, I favor the EMI
recording led by Lovro von Matacic. His sharp attacks and rhythmic verve
recall Toscanini. Birgit Nilsson is a wonderful (albeit unsexy) Minnie.
The recording cuts a few moments in Act I. The Brazilian tenor, Jaoa Gibin, is
satisfactory, but in no way way competitive with Mario del Monaco or Franco
Corelli. Andrea Mongelli is a superb and growly Sheriff.
Corelli is utterly magnificient in a live recording (La Scala - 4 April 1956)
that also offers in Tito Gobbi the best Sheriff Rance I've heard. The soprano,
Gigliola Frazzoni, has the wild charm and sexiness absent in performances by
more accomplished singers. The conductor is the often underrated Antonino
Votto. The sound quality I find more sharply defined than that of the somewhat
overrated Mitropoulos recording.
A certain roughness, I think Puccini's word was "ruvido", is needed for this
opera to make its impact. This quality I find absent in Mitropoulos' loving
account. His is a more symphonic performance and he is abetted by lovely
singing from Eleanor Steber. Del Monaco is more sensitive here than in his
studio recording and I find thrilling the additional 20 bars of the Act II duet
culminating in a Puccni-prescribed unison high C.
One should know that this was Ravel's favorite Puccini opera. The
orchestration is marvelous. It is a through-composed work and thus offers
fewer excerptible arias than, say, TOSCA.
The chorus is unique in that most of the choristers have names. There are
spectacular scenes. My favorite is the one in which the Sheriff discovers the
hidden bandit by the traces of blood dripping from the attic (depicted in the
orchestra by tinkling harp chords).
Much as I enjoy the work of Leonard Slatkin, I would say that the RCA recording
should be avoided, although this is the most complete version yet actually
including a few bars in Act I that Puccini cut before the world premiere.
Pages from the original manuscript have been on view at the Morgan Library in
New York City. What a pity that there are no recordings from the original cast
of Caruso, Destinn and Amato with Toscanini at the helm.
The real theme of this opera is nostalgia -- the longing of the miners for
their families. Minnie is their surrogate mother and although there is a
supposedly happy ending, it is the miners who must suffer the loss of their
beloved Minnie.
==G/P Dave
CharlesHandelman
>tenor ever). If you find them I am sure you would enjoy them. The
I love Franco..but remember a dude named CARUSO???My friend's dad saw the Met
premiere with Caruso!!!!!Imagine!!!!
Corelli is a wonderful tenor...but let us place him in proper
perspective....with Tucker,Caruso,Gigli,etc. CH
MNockin
"Western" in Italian. It just grates on my sensibilities, but then I am an
Easterner living in AZ. Many Westerners I know love it dearly because it is
the only opera that celebrates their history.
AZ Opera is doing it this month, BTW, and I'm sure it will sell out with a cast
including: Mary Jane Johnson/Pam south, Craig Sirianni/Tonio di Paolo, Donnie
Ray Alber/Edoardo del Campo conducted by ??. They don't even tell us the name
of the conductor! That really irks me.
Maria
Jon Davis
>the only opera that celebrates their history.
Maria does it again with her "limited" stock of information. What about BALLAD
OF BABY DOE?
Jon Davis
"Any American who is prepared to run for President should automatically,
by definition, be disqualified from ever doing so."
Gore Vidal
Matthew B. Tepper
<20010107111019...@ng-mn1.aol.com>:
>> Many Westerners I know love it dearly because it is
>>the only opera that celebrates their history.
>
>Maria does it again with her "limited" stock of information. What about
>BALLAD OF BABY DOE?
Then there is Andrew Imbrie's _Angle of Repose_ done at the San Francisco
Opera in the late 1970s. (I attended every performance but one, and heard
that one broadcast live on the radio in Los Angeles.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
REG
are you familiar with the recording of her first Minnie, with Lauri-Volpi? I
saw it once and, in an incredible moment of stupidity, thought I'd wait a
while to get it...nevermore. Any opinions?
GRNDPADAVE <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010107092114...@ng-ma1.aol.com...
Corellifan
>perspective....with Tucker,Caruso,Gigli,etc.
He did, Charlie, he did.
Mark D. Lew
oy兀earthlink.net (Matthew B. Tepper) wrote:
> >Maria does it again with her "limited" stock of information. What about
> >BALLAD OF BABY DOE?
>
> Then there is Andrew Imbrie's _Angle of Repose_ done at the San Francisco
> Opera in the late 1970s. (I attended every performance but one, and heard
> that one broadcast live on the radio in Los Angeles.)
In the past 20 years, several local composers have written works based on
northern California history, including David Conte's THE DREAMERS and Henry
Mollicone's EMPEROR NORTON.
As for older works, four come to mind:
Victor Herbert's NATOMA premiered at the Met just two months after FANCIULLA.
Franco Leoni's L'ORACOLO, in Italian, premiered in Italy about a year
before FANCIULLA.
The most consciously "Western" is Mary Carr Moore's (no relation to
Douglas) NARCISSA, which brought the popular trend of romanticized frontier
hero(ine) stories to the opera stage.
Most FANCIULLA-like, I think, is Quinto Maganini's THE ARGONAUTS. Maganini
was, like his friend Gaetano Merola, an Italian-American. The work, in
English, premiered at San Francisco Opera some time in the 1940s, I think.
It is written in a lyrical, Puccini-wannabe style (which I rather like...)
I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones I know.
mdl
Matthew B. Tepper
<markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>:
>In article <zo266.16385$Ps.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
>oy兀earthlink.net (Matthew B. Tepper) wrote:
>
>> >Maria does it again with her "limited" stock of information. What
>> >about BALLAD OF BABY DOE?
>>
>> Then there is Andrew Imbrie's _Angle of Repose_ done at the San
>> Francisco Opera in the late 1970s. (I attended every performance but
>> one, and heard that one broadcast live on the radio in Los Angeles.)
>
>In the past 20 years, several local composers have written works based
>on northern California history, including David Conte's THE DREAMERS and
>Henry Mollicone's EMPEROR NORTON.
Ooh, ooh, I *must* find out more about that last one!
>As for older works, four come to mind:
>
>Victor Herbert's NATOMA premiered at the Met just two months after
>FANCIULLA.
>
>Franco Leoni's L'ORACOLO, in Italian, premiered in Italy about a year
>before FANCIULLA.
Is that the one set in San Francisco's Chinatown (perhaps in the "Barbary
Coast" era?), in which the bad guy ends up strangled with his own queue?
>The most consciously "Western" is Mary Carr Moore's (no relation to
>Douglas) NARCISSA, which brought the popular trend of romanticized
>frontier hero(ine) stories to the opera stage.
>
>Most FANCIULLA-like, I think, is Quinto Maganini's THE ARGONAUTS.
>Maganini was, like his friend Gaetano Merola, an Italian-American. The
>work, in English, premiered at San Francisco Opera some time in the
>1940s, I think. It is written in a lyrical, Puccini-wannabe style (which
>I rather like...)
>
>I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones I know.
I plan to add to that. The first scene of _Nixon in Washington_ will take
place at an unspecified campaign stop of the 1950 Californian Senate race
(Nixon vs. Helen Gahagan Douglas), and the remainder of the opera is to be
set in, well, Washington.
Mark D. Lew
oy兀earthlink.net (Matthew B. Tepper) wrote:
> >In the past 20 years, several local composers have written works based
> >on northern California history, including David Conte's THE DREAMERS and
> >Henry Mollicone's EMPEROR NORTON.
>
> Ooh, ooh, I *must* find out more about that last one!
Yeah, you and me both. It was commissioned by West Bay about 10 or 15 years
ago. Henry conducts at WBO fairly often, including the Butterfly I did in
1999, when I met him. I've heard him doodle at the piano plenty, but I
never heard any real compositions [1]. I wanted to borrow a score to look
over, and when I heard about EMPEROR NORTON, that was my first choice. He
said he'd get me a copy of something some time, but we never followed up on
it. I'll have to bug him again....
> >Franco Leoni's L'ORACOLO, in Italian, premiered in Italy about a year
> >before FANCIULLA.
>
> Is that the one set in San Francisco's Chinatown (perhaps in the "Barbary
> Coast" era?), in which the bad guy ends up strangled with his own queue?
Yes, that's the one. Not exactly authentic, but it's as close as it gets to
my own California heritage.
mdl
[1] Unless you count the theme song from the old TV show "Fantasy Island"....
Matthew B. Tepper
>In article <MTa66.2337$Kb6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Well, there *was* a stereotypical "Chinaman" character in Imbrie's _Angle
of Repose_, but his scene got cut in rehearsals.
James Kahn
>I think the major problem with Fanciulla is getting the audience to accept a
>"Western" in Italian. It just grates on my sensibilities, but then I am an
>Easterner living in AZ. Many Westerners I know love it dearly because it is
>the only opera that celebrates their history.
I suppose it wouldn't be out of the question to perform it in English,
though that wouldn't change the nature of the music (I would not want to
hear it reorchestrated with banjos and harmonicas:)).
>AZ Opera is doing it this month, BTW, and I'm sure it will sell out with a cast
>including: Mary Jane Johnson/Pam south, Craig Sirianni/Tonio di Paolo, Donnie
>Ray Alber/Edoardo del Campo conducted by ??. They don't even tell us the name
>of the conductor! That really irks me.
So when was the last time the Met did this opera? You'd think it would be
a big draw, since it's still Puccini, after all, and does have one or two
popular arias. Yet the Met in recent memory has just been recycling
Butterfly, Tosca, Boheme, and Turandot.
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Customoper
>>including: Mary Jane Johnson/Pam south, Craig Sirianni/Tonio di Paolo,
>Donnie
>>Ray Alber/Edoardo del Campo conducted by ??. They don't even tell us the
>name
>>of the conductor! That really irks me.
Consider yourself lucky!! Most opera companies these days tell you the name of
the conductor, but not the singers!! La Scala is most guilty of this. Smacks of
more Muti ego.
Re Fanciulla, I love this opera. Perhaps my favorite Puccini work. There are a
few reasons why it is not performed as often as other works.
First of all, forgetting the locale, the role of Minnie is as taxing as
Turandot, and a whole lot longer. And she has to "give" emotionally to a much
greater degree. Dick Johnson is not much easier for the tenor. Truth to tell,
there has not been a satisfactory tenor in this opera since the days or
Corelli, Del Monaco, and Tucker. All three had big success in this work.
Domingo has done it fairly often, but, IMHO, simply lacks the needed high notes
to do the role justice, and always cut them short, or got hoarse.
If the Met, or any major theater, were to stage Fanciulla today, who do you
think should be cast?
Me- I would chose Millo as Minnie. I think she has the voice and temprement for
this role, and would be wonderful. As Johnson, I would chose Giordani, though
the role is very "verismo." I think he is more than ready for this repertoire,
and I believe he is doing his first Calaf somewhere soon. As Rance, well, I
don't know. He's sort of an American version of Scarpia, but not as cruel, and
more sympathetic. Who would you choose?
Best,
Ed
Custo...@earthlink.net for free catalog of CDs. Video & Audio Cassettes
For free catalog of live opera on CD, video, and audio cassettes, please e-mail
your name and mailing address.
donpaolo
voice too light, IMO. As to Rance, how about Mark Delavan? You're also
right on re: lacking a decent Johnson since Corelli/Tucker. Domingo was
simply awful in the part. I did like Martinucci in last broadcast. Maybe
Vladimir Galouzine?
Regards,
DonPaolo
Customoper <custo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010109133155...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
Ed Rosen
donpaolo? Maybe Galouzine would be just right. I am not overly familiar with
him. I think Armiliato would also be fine in this demanding role.
Best,
Ed
donpaolo
impressive. Maybe Dario Volonte?
DonP.
Ed Rosen <custo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3A5B71B0...@earthlink.net...
Vince Quaresima
>
> In <20010107105226...@ng-md1.aol.com> mno...@aol.com (MNockin) writes:
>
> >I think the major problem with Fanciulla is getting the audience to accept a
> >"Western" in Italian. It just grates on my sensibilities, but then I am an
> >Easterner living in AZ. Many Westerners I know love it dearly because it is
> >the only opera that celebrates their history.
False.
"Ballad of Baby Doe" comes to mind. Unless they've redone geography and
Colorado is no longer considered part of the American West...
And "Doe" really *does* celebrate the history of the American West since
it is based on real life rather than fiction.
Donatella Perinati
la ringrazio
donatella perinati
"Pietro Rizzo" <pietr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
F43IQAChFloBW...@hotmail.com...
MNockin
>Don't know about Armilliato. .... Maybe Dario Volonte?
Wish we had better prospects here in Az. Our alternating tenors for Fanciulla
are Tonio di Paolo and Craig Sirianni.
In the title part we have Mary Jane Johnson and Pam South. I am very familiar
with the former's fine Elektra in Santa Fe, but know nothing of the latter.
TheDivo
Mary Jane Johnson did Fanciulla here in Santa Fe a few years back and was
very good.
Bill
Capa0848
>From: custo...@aol.com (Customoper)
>Date: 01/09/2001 10:31 AM Pacific
Dick Johnson is not much easier for the tenor. Truth to tell, there has not
been a satisfactory tenor in this opera since the days or Corelli, Del Monaco,
and Tucker. All three had big success in this work.
>
>Domingo has done it fairly often, but, IMHO, simply lacks the needed high
>notes to do the role justice, and always cut them short, or got hoarse.
>Best,
>Ed
=========================
Hi, Ed.
Just for the sake of balance:
Chicago, La Fanciulla del West
Elisabeth Forbes, Opera Magazine (U.K.),
December 1990
Bartoletti and the orchestra sounded even more at home in 20th-century Italy,
when Harold Prince's production of La Fanciulla del West was revived. Prince
staged Puccini's opera as if it were in the same category as Oklahoma! - as
'Minnie get your Gun' - which worked perfectly. . .
Placido Domingo, in excellent voice, was a fine Dick Johnson... while his
phrasing of 'Ch'ella mi creda' was impeccable: plenty of emotion, but no sobs.
=====================
La Scala, La Fanciulla del West
Marco Vallora, Opera Magazine (U.K.), June 1991
Perhaps the second performance (January 31) could be thought of as the real
opening night, featuring as it did Placido Domingo, who brought great charisma
and pathos to the role. [Another tenor in the previous performance] was
certainly no competition for him. Domingo [...] was an imposing, dramatic
Ramerrez.
=====================
Splendor in the Wild West
Tim Page, New York Newsday, 12th October 1991
Although Puccini's "La Fanciulla del West" - "The Girl of the Golden West" - is
probably the most distinguished work in the repertory to receive a world
premiere at the Metropolitan Opera (Dec. 10, 1910, with composer and playwright
on hand, Caruso and Destinn in the cast, and Toscanini in the orchestra pit),
the company has shown little parental pride in recent years. Until Thursday
night, "Fanciulla" had not been seen at the Met since the 1969-70 season, when
it was presented in a borrowed production. [...]
. The part of Dick Johnson is all but ideal for Placido Domingo, falling as it
does somewhere between the easy lyricism required for, say, a Rodolfo, and the
more strenuous demands of an Otello. Domingo sang with lustrous tone (some
ravishing pianissimos in the first act) and his customary dramatic intelligence
was everywhere in evidence.
[...] It was a good night to be at the Met.
=============
How the 'West' was winning
Daily News, 14th October 1991[...]
Debuting director Giancarlo del Monaco (son of late tenor Mario) has staged the
opera with vigorous realism, though at times (notably in Act III) it's
difficult to focus on some characters. Another debutant, conductor Leonard
Slatkin, was triumphant - he led the work with great propulsion or
expansiveness as required, he brought out every glory in Puccini's opulent
score...
As the bandit Ramirrez (a.k.a: Dick Johnson), tenor Placido Domingo was
vocally and dramatically superb - I doubt even Caruso (who created the role)
sang it more gloriously.
=================
Regards,
Pat
These things are doubtless: yet in truth we've had
Strange thunders from the potency of song;
Mingled indeed with what is sweet and strong,
From majesty:
Keats Sleep and Poetry
MNockin
I don't doubt that at all, it's the tenors that have me questioning whether or
not to go. I also don't know if I get Johnson or South.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 01/15/2001 5:34 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <20010115183447...@ng-mg1.aol.com>
>
>>I think the major problem with Fanciulla is getting the audience to accept a
>>"Western" in Italian.
>
>charming and amusing, and that aspect of it is skin deep at most. The
>problem
>with Fancuilla for Puccini's usual audience is the comparative modernism of
>the
>opera's language. Fanciulla is the most harmonically advanced score Puccini
>ever composed, one of the most subtlely and complexly orchestrated, and one
>of
>the most nearly through-composed. Paradoxically, it's the opera by Puccini
>that owes the most to Debussy, just as Turandot is the opera that owes the
>most
>to Mussorgsky.
>
>-david gable
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
Good points, although I think IL TABARRO is actually Puccini's most advanced
score, harmonically and orchestrally.
TURANDOT is more popular than FANCIULLA or TABARRO, I think, because it has
more hit tunes.
TURANDOT is also more exotic and in Liu offers a heroine that is recognizable
as one of Puccini's "little women".
==G/P Dave
neil_...@my-deja.com
> Corelli is utterly magnificient in a live recording (La Scala - 4
April 1956)
> that also offers in Tito Gobbi the best Sheriff Rance I've heard.
The soprano,
> Gigliola Frazzoni, has the wild charm and sexiness absent in
performances by
> more accomplished singers. The conductor is the often underrated
Antonino
> Votto.
Everytime I read a thread about Fanciulla recordings someone always
starts raving about the Corelli/Frazzoni recording. But I still have
never seen this recording available anywhere in the UK, and I also
couldn't find it when I was last in New York! Can anyone help me?
cheers
Neil
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
MD
-- THE VOCAL RESOURCE: http://www.ups.edu/faculty/mdelos/vocal.htm HOMEPAGE: http://www.halcyon.com/nwac/
Ed Rosen
Best,
Ed
Enrique Eskenazi
>
>Everytime I read a thread about Fanciulla recordings someone always
>starts raving about the Corelli/Frazzoni recording. But I still have
>never seen this recording available anywhere in the UK, and I also
>couldn't find it when I was last in New York! Can anyone help me?
It is a Legato issue, produced by Ed Rosen who posts regularly in this
group. Get his e-address and ask him.
You also might try the following URL:
http://www.lyricdist.com
Regards
---
Enrique
eske...@teleline.es
PS: I still prefer the Del Monaco/Steber Fanciulla
Ed Rosen
contact me at this e-mail address.
Best,
Ed
MD
Mark D. Lew
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
> Good points, although I think IL TABARRO is actually Puccini's most advanced
> score, harmonically and orchestrally.
Sorry GPD, but I agree with the other David. FANCIULLA is more advanced
harmonically than TABARRO.
TABARRO has a lush sound, but harmonically it's pretty easy to break down.
There are a few "advanced" spots in the ending, but most of the opera falls
easily into the usual Puccini pattern of harmonizing a melody with one
triad throughout the middle of the orchestra and in the bass a note which
is of the same tonality but not the root of the triad.
TABARRO seems to have a bit more in the way of added 6ths and 9ths than we
see in "easier" Puccini, but the basic pattern is still there. Even that
quasi-augmented chord that seems to be associated with Michele's jealousy
-- the one that's spelled like a major third plus the augmented fourth --
sounds to me like a minor triad with an added sixth and the root missing.
That's pretty much how he uses the same sound in Butterfly, where it's a
melodic fragment rather than a chord.
Most of the discordant sounds earlier in TABARRO are achieved simply by
harmonizing normally and then adding a tone which is a half-step off of one
of the main tones, a technique which is effective but simple (and thus
typical of Puccini, who consistently goes for simple but effective). It's
essentially the same scheme he uses for the faux out-of-tune organ grinder
sound applied to the orchestra at large.
For me, at least, FANCIULLA is much more difficult to make sense of.
There, the prevailing harmony is genuinely augmented (also hinted at in
Butterfly, but not developed to nearly the same extent). All other Puccini
I've seen, with the possible exception of parts of Turandot, is basically
standard tonality with various added tones. Much of FANCIULLA is "normal"
Puccini (eg, "Ch'ella mi creda"), but there are also large sections which
don't seem to have a standard tonality at all, but rather are based on some
sort of whole-tone scale. I assume that's what David has in mind when he
refers to Debussy.
Also, if you're looking at just small sections, rather than the opera as a
whole, I think you have to consider the opening of act three in TURANDOT
(ie, before "Nessun dorma"). If you grant that Debussian harmony (or for
that matter, even Stravinskian) is not really what anyone calls "modern"
anymore, then I'd say this little segment of TURANDOT is the most
harmonically "modern" that Puccini ever gets.
(For what it's worth, I'm a big fan of TABARRO. From a music-only point of
view, it's my favorite Puccini score.)
mdl
Yorick Meefout
I just recently 'discovered' Il Tabarro and I'm so much amazed by it, that I
really cannot find words to describe my fealings.
But on the subject of harmony on Stravinksy I have a question, and I hope
I'm not being very stupid by asking this:
There are a few seconds in the part that La Frugola sings (you know that
great moment with the cat an the ron-ron-ron) that I find really similar to
Baba the Turcs aria in the Rake's Progress.
I'm talking about the part that starts with "Se tu sapessi gli ogetti
strani" in Il Tabarro and the aria "As I was saying" (beginning of act III)
in the Rake's Progress.
Now and to make it really interesting both ladies sing about the same
subjuct! They both describe all the strange things they own.
Do you think Stravinksy was inspired for that part by Il Tabarro? Or am I
being stupid :)
Yorick Meefout.
"Mark D. Lew" <mark...@earthlink.net> schreef in bericht
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net...
Mark D. Lew
<yor...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> There are a few seconds in the part that La Frugola sings (you know that
> great moment with the cat an the ron-ron-ron) that I find really similar to
> Baba the Turcs aria in the Rake's Progress.
> I'm talking about the part that starts with "Se tu sapessi gli ogetti
> strani" in Il Tabarro and the aria "As I was saying" (beginning of act III)
> in the Rake's Progress.
In Tabarro, are you talking about when the main theme repeats? There
Puccini uses appoggiaturas on the bass note, with the effect of adding the
tone a half step down from the root. That's exactly the sort of thing I was
talking about in the other post.
I don't know Rake's Progress very well, and I can't recall the part you're
talking about, but that sort of thing is fairly common in Stravinsky. I
wouldn't necessarily conclude that Stravinsky was directly inspired by
Tabarro, though.
(On the other hand, perhaps you're talking about the tonality, which is
basically minor but with a sort of Dorian flavor.)
> Now and to make it really interesting both ladies sing about the same
> subjuct! They both describe all the strange things they own.
And perhaps also Kaspar in Menotti's Amahl?
mdl
Enrique Eskenazi
>Do you think Stravinksy was inspired for that part by Il Tabarro? Or am I
>being stupid :)
I don't think so, but it is quite possible that Puccini was inspired on
Stravinsky (Petrouchka) when he wrote the music for the organ playing the
waltz danced by Giorgetta and Luigi...
Regards
---
Enrique
eske...@teleline.es
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 01/27/2001 6:03 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <94vndj$1ok$1...@diana.bcn.ttd.net>
Stravinsky and Puccini often met in Paris.
I think Stravinsky reveals the influence of Act II of LA BOHEME by using an
authentic French tune to enliven the fair.
Puccini used "Les trois tambours" while Stravinsky used "Il avait une jambe de
bois". Stravinsky's misfortune was that the tune he chose was still in
copyright as he sadly learned after losing a lawsuit and being forced to pay
substantial damages.
My favorite story concerning these two concerns Debussy who was recovering in a
hospital. Puccini paid a call on him (blithely chain-smoking all the while).
Debussy praised Puccini's work, but only wanted to hear Puccini's opinion of
PELLIAS.
Stravinsky, a hypochondriac, had avoided a hospital visit but wanted to know
what Debussy and Puccini had said. The latter confided that he praised the
harmonies, but, in an aside to Stravinsky, offered: "the melodies are as
changeless as a nun's habit."
The TABARRO bit probably was influenced by Stravinsky as the barrel organ is
deliberately played out of tune.
Another admirer of Puccini was Ravel, who thought that FANCIULLA offered a
textbook on first-rate operatic orchestration.
==G/P Dave
Mark D. Lew
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
> Another admirer of Puccini was Ravel, who thought that FANCIULLA offered a
> textbook on first-rate operatic orchestration.
It's often forgotten that came to opera as a symphonist. Even in his
teenage compositions, the writing for the orchestra is masterful. In
contrast, he didn't really get the hang of writing for voice until his
third or fourth opera. Likewise for his sense of the theater.
mdl