Hojotoho - to scoop or not to scoop ?
Benjamin Rochefort
Ring-addict (I now own three versions of it) ! The following question is
perhaps naive, but anyway, here it is :
Some sopranos attack the high notes of the Hojotoho cry dead on (Nilsson
for instance), while others scoop to the upper notes.
What's the story behind that ? Have these two ways of singing always
coexisted, or does the score indicate that one way is to be favored over
the other ?
Who sings your favorite Hojotoho ?
--
Benji di Parigi
Tristan848
notes and a real trill. There is exactly one soprano I know who sings the Ho Jo
as written - Frida Leider. It sounds like an umbrella opening up and she has
the trill - thrilling to hear! Wolf
Peter Sakharov
>Who sings your favorite Hojotoho ?
My greatest and most impressing Hojotoho experience was
life Berrit Lindholm in the Swedish Royal Opera "Ring" in
1975. But I never found any records of hers with Hojotoho.
Peter Sakharov
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Peter
Kirsten Flagstad
Matthew B. Tepper
trist...@aol.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
Leider is my first choice too -- THEN Flagstad!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
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"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
David Shengold
Frida Leider it is!
The most accurate- indeed the only accurate-- "Hojotoho" I have heard in the
theatre was from Rita Hunter at the Met in 1977- better than I remember her
recording with "Reggie" as being, though it's been many years.
-David Shengold
----------
In article <19990923181908...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
Fafner73
>
My score (Dover reprint of the Peters Edition) shows no scoop, but as I recall,
most singers DO scoop.
Jon A Conrad
>My score (Dover reprint of the Peters Edition) shows no scoop, but as I recall,
>most singers DO scoop.
If it's like my Dover score, it *does* show slurs connecting the octave
notes. That marking is traditionally a request for portamento. Wagner's
scores are full of such portamento slurs (commonly ignored these days,
alas).
Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
con...@udel.edu
NNRathbun
<Wagner's scores are full of such portamento slurs (commonly ignored these
days, alas)>
I've wondered about this. Does anyone know or have a theory how it developed
that portamento disappeared from Wagner singing? Who are good examples of
singers (past or present) who use it well?
Thanks,
Nancy
Matthew B. Tepper
nnra...@aol.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
I can't answer your question directly, but I might advise you to listen
to some of the very early Wagner recordings. There is practically a
whole CD devoted to them on Symposium 1081, entitled "The Harold Wayne
Collection, Volume 5," including many recordings from Bayreuth made in
1904.
I recently got another disc on the same label, Symposium 1135, entitled
"From the Yale Collection of Historical Sound Recordings," with more
1904 Bayreuth recordings. These include some Rhinemaiden trios (both
from _Rheingold_ and _Götterdämmerung_) in which the Flosshilde was one
Ottilie Metzger, later murdered by the Nazis. (I imagine she also would
have sung the First Norn.)
Curiously, some years ago I had a live-in girlfriend named Nancy who
referred to our supply of dental floss as "Flosshilde." Must be
something really strange about women with that name!
Jon A Conrad
>> <Wagner's scores are full of such portamento slurs (commonly ignored
>> these days, alas)>
> I've wondered about this. Does anyone know or have a theory how it
> developed that portamento disappeared from Wagner singing?
That's an interesting question. Maybe an article exists somewhere on the
subject; it could certainly be a whole dissertation.
Without having investigated all the aural evidence, I can hypothesize that
it was lost in the two movements of (1) general move in the early 20th
century toward the ahistorical "just the notes, as written" philosphy that
also cleared out appoggiaturas and ornamentation, and (2) wish to
dissociate Wagner from "all those Bad Italian Habits" (never mind that he
himself expressed the wish for good Italianate voices and manners in his
music). Now the practice is endangered in other music as well (I think
the first mezzo I heard render the opening phrases of the Liber Scriptus
from Verdi's Requiem with no portamento was Shirley Verrett on a Cleveland
Orch. broadcast performance c. 1970 -- maybe at the conductor's
insistence?), although it is part of every operatic style prior to, say,
Berg.
> Who are good examples of >singers (past or present) who use it well?
From the past, Frida Leider for sure. From the almost-present, Rita
Hunter's Brunnhilde on the Goodall RING uses it beautifully, along with a
good trill.
Claud H. Shirley III
In her final broadcast Met performance of the role of Brunnhilde,
February 3, 1951, Flagstad observes perfectly the upward portamenti and
the staccato high notes are at pitch (seven out of eight anyway). AND
she trills. Magnificent. But her scenes that follow make you forget
all about the tricks - the sheer immense Andressesque beauty of her
voice and the sincerity she communicates, pales the other singers, and
elevates Wagner's music considerably, IME.
Mike Richter
Jon A Conrad wrote:
> Without having investigated all the aural evidence, I can hypothesize that
> it was lost in the two movements of (1) general move in the early 20th
> century toward the ahistorical "just the notes, as written" philosphy that
> also cleared out appoggiaturas and ornamentation, and (2) wish to
> dissociate Wagner from "all those Bad Italian Habits" (never mind that he
> himself expressed the wish for good Italianate voices and manners in his
> music).
I just checked the two sets of excerpts on my forthcoming CD-ROM. Both
Austral on the 'potted Ring' and Gottlieb on the Pathe from 1928/29
scoop beautifully and effectively. Each also hits the exposed top notes
precisely, so the swoop (I prefer that to arpeggio or scoop) is a
deliberate effect.
Mike
mric...@cpl.net
http://mrichter.simplenet.com
CD-R http://resource.simplenet.com
Edward A. Cowan
> I recently got another disc on the same label, Symposium 1135, entitled
> "From the Yale Collection of Historical Sound Recordings," with more
> 1904 Bayreuth recordings. These include some Rhinemaiden trios (both
> from _Rheingold_ and _Götterdämmerung_) in which the Flosshilde was one
> Ottilie Metzger, later murdered by the Nazis. (I imagine she also would
> have sung the First Norn.)
The two Rhinemaiden trios (from _Das Rheingold_ and from
_Götterdämmerung_) are also in EMI's "Sänger auf dem grünen Hügel"
("Singers on the green hill"), 1C 181-30 669/78, ten LPs, out-of-print.
In addition, Metzger is heard in "Stark ruft das Lied," a compilation of
Erda's utterances in Act 3, sc.i of _Siegfried_, but without a baritone
as Wanderer.
The Austrian label Preiser once issued an LP recital of Ottilie Metzger
(alas, I seem not to have it), on CO 310. This offers Erda's "Weiche,
Wotan" from _Das Rheingold_, the _Siegfried_ item listed above,
Waltraute's narrative from _Götterdämmerung_, and "In seiner Blüte" from
_Rienzi_, with other items from operas of Gluck, Meyerbeer, Verdi, Bizet
(from _Djamileh_!), and Saint-Saëns.
Ottilie Metzger (1878-1943) was a formidable singer, and her recordings
are well-worth seeking out...
-- E.A.C.
Jjparterre
middle B to a high B marked staccatto (a moment later,from C to C). That does
not indicate a scoop, but rather a portamento, a *controlled* and musical
effect, not a Konetzni whoop.
I have always felt one reason Nilsson did not sing the slur is that, as a
younger singer, she had a rather obvious register break around the high
G-natural/A-flat -- especially earlier in the evening before the voide really
warmed up. If you listen, for example, to her Isolde or Turandot from the late
50s into the early '60s, she always "flipped" or "popped" into the highest
notes, using the diction to facilitate the new attack. )"Mir'l --*ACHT* das
Abenteuer!" "Quel grr -- *I*do e quella morte!") In other words, Nilsson
risked cracking if she tried a full-voice octave portamento up to the high B
and C.
She wasn't alone in this, of course. If you listen to Joan Sutherland's
ESCLARMONDE, you will hear that Massenet wrote exactly the same type of figure
going up to the high D in the "Esprits de l'air" scene. Sutherland masks her
register adjustment with an aspiration: "Entendez ma voi--HHH-- oix!!" and
"Obeissez- moi -- HHH- oi!" In fact,some Brunnhildes use the same gimmick to
sneak around that tricky portamento: Martha Moedl, for one.
Later in her career, Nilsson's voice, though less accurate as to pitch, became
more equalized in scale, with the top less detatched. At that time, she began
singing the portamenti as written, perhaps because she could now do so more
reliably.
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
latest opera gossip: http://www.parterre.com/lacieca.htm
Matthew B. Tepper
eac...@anet-dfw.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
The Yale CD mentioned above also has Metzger in the "Séguedille" from
_Carmen_, auf Deutsch, of course, and also recorded in Bayreuth in 1904.
On this evidence I'd say she was a far more natural Carmen than, say,
Waltraud Meier.
Matthew B. Tepper
jjpar...@aol.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>If you listen to Joan Sutherland's ESCLARMONDE, you will hear that
>Massenet wrote exactly the same type of figure going up to the high D in
>the "Esprits de l'air" scene. Sutherland masks her register adjustment
>with an aspiration: "Entendez ma voi--HHH-- oix!!" and "Obeissez- moi --
>HHH- oi!"
Interesting; I don't recall her having done that in the house at the
re-premiere. I should try to hunt down an aircheck.
Cramnella
>that portamento disappeared from Wagner singing?
This is just a theory of mine. In general, portamenti were more common before,
say, the 40s, at which time they fell in to disrepute and were considered to be
schmaltzy and in poor taste. If you listen to violinists before the 40s, they
were much more liberal in their application of portamenti.
Marc Allen
Jjparterre
>say, the 40s, at which time they fell in to disrepute and were considered to
>be
>schmaltzy and in poor taste.
I think another aspect is that the "Bayreuth" style of Wagner performance
strongly reflected the taste of Cosima Wagner, who leaned more toward textual
projection over lyricism. Portamento singing tends (especially in less than
perfect singers) to lead to some obscuring of the text; as such, Cosima
demanded a vocal style that disconnected the line, the better to emphasize
clear consonant sounds. The influence of Bayreuth was and is a very profound
one; international styles of movement, stage design and singing technique have
always tended to be founded on the Bayreuth model.
What you say about "sentimentality" is of course also true; many critics are
embarassed by any musical expression that carries a strong emotional charge,
calling it "tasteless" or "vulgar." A Sieglinde who hailed her brother as
"Sie------gmund," using a big portamento, would likely inspire horror and
loathing in the pages of OPERA. (Isn't it one of their reviewers who called
Callas's reading of the Liebestod "lurid," simply because she used portamento?)
NWDixieboy
Seattle this summer and brought down the house. Trills, VOLUME!!!!,
beauty, on perfect pitch . It did it for me and everyone in the house.I
never heard Nilsson or Flagstad, so I can't compare live sound, but
Eaglen is hard to beat in my book. I would love to hear Marc do it.
She'd scoop a bit, but STILL!!!
--
John Roberts
email:jrob...@uswest.net
Visit my web site with photos of me and my garden which has received
national publicity at http://www.gayseattle.com/NWDixieboy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
The Grand Inquisitor
Jjparterre wrote
> I think we should keep our terminology straight. Wagner wrote a slur from
a
> middle B to a high B marked staccatto (a moment later,from C to C). That
does
> not indicate a scoop, but rather a portamento, a *controlled* and musical
> effect, not a Konetzni whoop.
> I have always felt one reason Nilsson did not sing the slur is that, as a
> younger singer, she had a rather obvious register break around the high
> G-natural/A-flat -- especially earlier in the evening before the voide
really
> warmed up.>
Putting aside the question of whether her break was as stated, its location
has no bearing on a singer's ability to execute a connected octave jump.
Indeed it is one of the 'safest' of vocal maneuvers, and it is a device
commonly used in early vocal training because of its effectiveness in
bridging the passaggio, and helping to facilitate blending the two
registers. I presented no difficulties for Miss Nillson.
< If you listen, for example, to her Isolde or Turandot from the late
> 50s into the early '60s, she always "flipped" or "popped" into the highest
> notes, using the diction to facilitate the new attack. )"Mir'l --*ACHT*
das
> Abenteuer!" "Quel grr -- *I*do e quella morte!") In other words, Nilsson
> risked cracking if she tried a full-voice octave portamento up to the high
B
> and C.>
Diction cannot facilitate an attack, at least not in a positive sense. It is
more likely that she was attempting to execute a dramatic device. In the
interest of clear terminology, "flipped" and "popped" have no meaning in
vocal pedagogy. "...risked cracking..."? No.
>
> She wasn't alone in this, of course. If you listen to Joan Sutherland's
> ESCLARMONDE, you will hear that Massenet wrote exactly the same type of
figure
> going up to the high D in the "Esprits de l'air" scene. Sutherland masks
her
> register adjustment with an aspiration: >
What is meant by "register adjustment" as used here is unclear, but one
assumes it refers to the proportionate tension shared by the two muscle
groups which adjust the length, thickness, and contour of the vocal folds in
response to changing patterns of pitch, intensity, and vowel, Since the the
physical dimensions of the vocal folds should vary with each of these
patterns, the balance or ratio of tension shared between them must vary
correspondingly. These adjustments are a continual and ongoing process
throughout the vocal compass. In a well blended and unified technique (which
Miss Sutherland surely possessed in a measure superior to most singers)
these adjustments are virtually imperceptible. The notion that these
adjustments can be "masked by an aspiration" is a non sequitur. There is no
basis for such an idea.
"Entendez ma voi--HHH-- oix!!" and
> "Obeissez- moi -- HHH- oi!" In fact,some Brunnhildes use the same gimmick
to
> sneak around that tricky portamento: Martha Moedl, for one.
>
> Later in her career, Nilsson's voice, though less accurate as to pitch,
became
> more equalized in scale, with the top less detatched. >
At no time in her public career did miss Nillson sing with a detached top.
Such a condition is rarely, if ever, found in an opera singer. It would have
been physically impossible for her to have sung the roles she sang.
Major Funding
needed to take the elevator from ground level to sing Hojotoho, making hers the
creamiest brand.
-------------------
General Tso
"Don't they have love affairs in Philadelphia?" Samuel Barber
pin...@my-deja.com
jjpar...@aol.com (Jjparterre) wrote:
> I think we should keep our terminology straight...
...and our sexual orientation as well.
> Wagner wrote a slur...
Wagner an anti-semite?
Just kidding, folks. Couldn't resist, considering the source.
Jjparterre
>has no bearing on a singer's ability to execute a connected octave jump.
>Indeed it is one of the 'safest' of vocal maneuvers, and it is a device
>commonly used in early vocal training because of its effectiveness in
>bridging the passaggio, and helping to facilitate blending the two
>registers. I presented no difficulties for Miss Nillson.
You are wrong. The fact that this technique is taught as an exercise does not
mean it is easy; in fact, many sopranos I know complain *precisely* about the
difficulty of making the adjustment when singing rising vocal figures that
bridge the octave from B to B or C to C.
>Diction cannot facilitate an attack, at least not in a positive sense. It is
>more likely that she was attempting to execute a dramatic device.
Again, you are wrong. Listen to the recordings, live or studio. In the moments
I pointed out, Nilsson sings the initial consonant of the word, then performs a
separate attack the high note on the first vowel of the word. There is a tiny
but audible pause in the sound. That is when she makes the adjustment between
the registers.
> In the
>interest of clear terminology, "flipped" and "popped" have no meaning in
>vocal pedagogy.
"Flipped" means changing to the vocal position used for higher notes; the
sensation for the soprano is that the sound suddenly moves upward in the head,
like a coin being flipped into the air.
"Popped" means that the singer puts breath pressure behind slightly tensed
cords, "popping" them open and beginning their vibration suddenly. Most singers
use a "popping" attack on extreme high notes.
>In a well blended and unified technique (which
>Miss Sutherland surely possessed in a measure superior to most singers)
>these adjustments are virtually imperceptible.
Sutherland's voice was notable for great agility and brilliance of tone on top;
an even scale was never one of her strongest features. Your argument from
theory (and utterly ignoring observation) that "since she had a unified
technique, she must have had an even scale" begs the question of what
"technique" means.
>The notion that these
>adjustments can be "masked by an aspiration" is a non sequitur. There is no
>basis for such an idea.
The only basis is the evidence of one's ears. Sutherland aspirates during
these portamenti; for an instant she actually stops producing a singing tone,
then reattacks, obviously in a different vocal position.
Frankly, you are presenting an aerodynamic argument that a bumblebee cannot
fly, while refusing to look out the window for a little empirical evidence.
You were much more amusing back when you just insulted people. This pretentious
farrago of technical singing terms is utterly unconvincing.
Jjparterre
your parade of bigoted humor.
dtritter
>
> In article <19990925095230...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
> jjpar...@aol.com (Jjparterre) wrote:
>
> > I think we should keep our terminology straight...
>
> ...and our sexual orientation as well.
>
> > Wagner wrote a slur...
>
> Wagner an anti-semite?
>
> Just kidding, folks. Couldn't resist, considering the source.
what a keenly honed sense of humor!
gaaaaaby, you were funnier when you were discussing dr. mengele.
dft
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Peter
> Eaglen sang Hojotoho as an encore AFTER a two hour Wagner concert in
> Seattle this summer and brought down the house. Trills, VOLUME!!!!,
> beauty, on perfect pitch . It did it for me and everyone in the house.
Have you heard Eaglen's SONY recording of the "Hojotoho"? I hope that
you can tell me that she is "much better in person" than on her
recording, because the latter did not impress me at all.
Mike Richter
Jjparterre wrote:
>
> > In general, portamenti were more common before,
> >say, the 40s, at which time they fell in to disrepute and were considered to
> >be
> >schmaltzy and in poor taste.
>
> I think another aspect is that the "Bayreuth" style of Wagner performance
> strongly reflected the taste of Cosima Wagner, who leaned more toward textual
> projection over lyricism. Portamento singing tends (especially in less than
> perfect singers) to lead to some obscuring of the text; as such, Cosima
> demanded a vocal style that disconnected the line, the better to emphasize
> clear consonant sounds. The influence of Bayreuth was and is a very profound
> one; international styles of movement, stage design and singing technique have
> always tended to be founded on the Bayreuth model.
I agree in principle, but Gottlieb *was* singing with the Bayreuth
forces when she swooped (or term of your choice). The recording was of
the Bayreuth forces on their excursion to Bayreuth in 1928. However
Cosima may have felt about her, this was Bayreuth then. The cast may
have some familiar names - except for Gottlieb.
Wotan: Ludwig Weber
Loge, Siegmund, Siegfried: Walther Kirchhoff
Brünnhilde: Henriette Gottlieb
Sieglinde, Waldvogel: Mme. Schram-Tschoerner
Erda: Margarete Klose
Hagen: Ludwig Hoffmann
Robert T. Jones
until sometime in the mid-1950s, even before the days of Nilsson. Gadski's
recording has a wonderful series of swoops (I wouldn't refer to it as a
"scoop," which is a much decried flaw of quite another type). You can hear
Flagstad swooping it in her film performance in "The Great Broadcast of
1938." Traubel always did it. And in more recent times Gabriele Schnaut
swooped quite spectacularly in the Met broadcast of "Walkure" about two
years ago. Once you've heard it done brilliantly, as Schnaut did it, you'll
probably never be content with the un-swooped version.
cegb...@erols.com
> My greatest and most impressing Hojotoho experience was
> life Berrit Lindholm in the Swedish Royal Opera "Ring" in
> 1975. But I never found any records of hers with Hojotoho.
>
If you want a recording, she makes a fabulous entrance as Helmwige in
THE SOLTI RING. Her "hojotohos" are wonderful (complete with
portamenti).
The Grand Inquisitor
CTB:>>Putting aside the question of whether her break was as stated, its
location
has no bearing on a singer's ability to execute a connected octave jump.(I
now add the following: The "break", the point of separation between the two
register mechanisms, is found in the vicinity of E to F above middle C. Its
exact position is dependent upon several variables, i.e., the weight of the
voice, the levels of intensity being sung, the vowel, and the general
technical condition of the mechanism. Miss Nillson did NOT have a register
break around G# or A). Indeed it is one of the 'safest' of vocal maneuvers,
and it is a device commonly used in early vocal training because of its
effectiveness in bridging the passaggio, and helping to facilitate blending
the two registers. It presented no difficulties for Miss Nillson.
Jtp: You are wrong. The fact that this technique is taught as an exercise
does not
mean it is easy; (Let's get a couple of points straight here. I did not say
it was 'easy', I said 'safe'. They are different concepts. Moreover, I did
not say it was taught as an exercise. One does not teach technique as
exercises. The reverse is true. Exercises teach technique. The purpose of a
vocal exercise is to encourage natural movement, to remove muscular
blockages, to strengthen that which is correct, to develop and integrate the
registers, and to effectively position the larynx so that it provides the
open-throated resonance so essential to good singing. To get at the
functional core of the vocal apparatus, one must know what scale patterns to
select, when and how to use them, and why they can be expected to work. Each
exercise must be be selected on the basis of individual needs. No exercise
posses intrinsic merit. Its sole importance is its suitability as a problem
solver and the manner in which it is executed. Rote exercises are virtually
useless)... in fact, many sopranos I know complain *precisely* about the
difficulty of making the adjustment when singing rising vocal figures that
bridge the octave from B to B or C to C. (Which vocal figures were those
anonymous sopranos referring to? The octave jump is the least difficult
figure. Others are more so. I will concede that you may know some sopranos
who find it difficult. Some beginners do, as well as some singers who have
studied long and wrongly).
>
CTB: Diction cannot facilitate an attack, at least not in a positive sense.
It is more likely that she was attempting to execute a dramatic device.> (A
further note about diction: There is an erroneous belief that good diction
fosters good vocalization. Although good diction unquestionably enhances
technical proficiency, it is relatively ineffective in the face of technical
deficiencies. Limited range, poor resonance, shortness of breath, throat
constriction and tremulous movements of the tongue and jaw are problems
related to poor physical coordination within the laryngeal pharynx that can
neither be corrected nor alleviated by diction).
Jjp: Again, you are wrong. Listen to the recordings, live or studio. In the
moments
I pointed out, Nilsson sings the initial consonant of the word, then
performs a
separate attack the high note on the first vowel of the word. There is a
tiny but audible pause in the sound. That is when she makes the adjustment
between the registers. (Not so. She pauses in order to execute the staccato
note called for in the score. The 'adjustment' has already been made, and
retained in balanced equilibrium during the pause. Readers should not infer
that this adjustment is a conscious and mechanical action taken for each and
every sung note. One of the principal goals of study is to train the
technique so that every adjustment is reflexive, unconscious, balanced, and
instantaneous).
CTB: In the interest of clear terminology, "flipped" and "popped" have no
meaning in
vocal pedagogy.
Jjp: "Flipped" means changing to the vocal position used for higher notes;
the sensation for the soprano is that the sound suddenly moves upward in the
head,
like a coin being flipped into the air. (I see. What you may be trying to
express, though I doubt you understand it, is the aural perception of the
textural changes which occur when the voice moves from one extreme of its
range to its opposite, when swelling and diminishing, or when negotiating
larger intervals. Every pitch, every intensity level, and every vowel
requires, ideally, a special setting of the vocal folds with regard to their
length, thickness and elasticity. Each of these dimensions produces
modifications of texture which are identifiable with either the chest voice
or the head voice. Since the symptoms associated with these mechanisms
correspondingly create vibratory impulses centered in the chest and the
head, both the change in registration and the symptoms aroused give the
impression that the voice "rolls, or rotates, from one type of sensation and
one locale to another. This is known as 'register rotation', not as
"flipped").
Jjp: "Popped" means that the singer puts breath pressure behind slightly
tensed
cords, "popping" them open and beginning their vibration suddenly. Most
singers
use a "popping" attack on extreme high notes. (This is, of course, a
formulation for disaster. Two important factors are involved in the physical
process which yields vocal tone. One is the tensing of the vocal folds,
which enables them to meet the requirements of various pitch-intensity
patterns. The other is the positioning of the of the larynx and pharyngeal
cavities, which results in tonal tonal amplification or resonance. At the
inception of vocal tone, the muscle groups responsible for these two
processes move from relaxation to balanced tension. The precision of the
attack is determined by the precision of these movements.
The term "attack" is an inappropriate one to describe the onset of phonation
because it implies an aggressive beginning. A superior one is the old
Italian expression 'con slancio', which means "to launch". The underlying
impression is one of gentleness rather than forcefulness, of allowing the
physical mechanisms to come into motion rather than acting upon them. The
ideal tonal attack is to "let" the mouth open, think the vowel and tonal
form, and then "hear" vibrations appear within the thought form, without
acting upon them. The vocal folds can easily be approximated neurologically
by "thinking" them to close, and it is this phenomenon which prepares the
mechanism for phonation and makes a clean attack one without pre-tension or
guttaral noises. This procedure should apply to all all attacks for all
voice types, regardless of pitch or intensity. Conscious, volitional
preparatory efforts (e.g., expanding the rib cage, elevating the chest,
taking an unusually large breath, breathing through the nose, tucking in or
protruding the abdomen, assuming a "set" facial expression or mouth
position, raising the soft palate, lowering the larynx, etc.) more often
than not promote self-consciousness and body stiffness, and constitute
measures which inhibit free, spontaneous movements. Paradoxically, the art
of preparing for phonation is in essence the art of learning how to prepare
without preparing).
CTB: In a well blended and unified technique (which Miss Sutherland surely
possessed in a measure superior to most singers) these adjustments are
virtually imperceptible.
Jjp: Sutherland's voice was notable for great agility and brilliance of tone
on top;
an even scale was never one of her strongest features. Your argument from
theory (and utterly ignoring observation) that "since she had a unified
technique, she must have had an even scale" begs the question of what
"technique" means. (CTB: Obviously I did not say that she had an "even
scale", regardless of the strawman you have tossed in. I did not even use
the term. But let's examine the point. A so-called "even scale" is a linear
vocal pattern in which each tone is perfectly graduated in proportion to its
neighbors. No two pitches, whether produced by the voice or by any other
instrument, are ever identical. Therefore the "even scale", commonly
considered a series of identical tonal qualities, is actually an "evenly
graded" scale, i.e., a succession of vocalized sounds that share identical
resonance characteristics and for which the ratio of registration for each
pitch differs from, but matches, that of its neighbors. Efforts directed
toward the achievement of an even scale through absolute uniformity of
quality and tonal texture "lock" the registration and seal in vocal faults.
Such practices limit the functional capacity of the mechanism and make the
voice colorless and qualitatively uninteresting. I do not ignore
observation. I have seen and listened to Miss Sutherland. And the readers
here can decide which of us knows what technique means, and whether I am
begging the question).
CTB: The notion that these adjustments can be "masked by an aspiration" is a
non sequitur. There is no basis for such an idea.
Jjp: The only basis is the evidence of one's ears. Sutherland aspirates
during
these portamenti; for an instant she actually stops producing a singing
tone, then reattacks, obviously in a different vocal position.(CTB: See my
comments above).
Jjp: Frankly, you are presenting an aerodynamic argument that a bumblebee
cannot
fly, while refusing to look out the window for a little empirical evidence.
You were much more amusing back when you just insulted people. This
pretentious farrago of technical singing terms is utterly unconvincing.
(CTB: When you are exposed for the superficial fraud that you are, attack
the other person, Jorden. You are in way over your head in these matters. I
suggest that you would be more comfortable discussing them with someone
closer to your own level, say Skip for example. I recall his incisive
response to one of my posts regarding technique: "Nobody's interested in
that clinical shit." You will feel right at home with Skip).
Have a nice day.
CTB
The Grand Inquisitor
bridge the octave from B to B or C to C. (CTB: Which vocal figures were
those
anonymous sopranos referring to? The octave jump is the least difficult
figure. Others are more difficult. I will concede that you may know some
sopranos
who find it difficult. Some beginners do, as well as some singers who have
studied long and wrongly).
>
CTB: Diction cannot facilitate an attack, at least not in a positive sense.
It is more likely that she was attempting to execute a dramatic device.
(CTB: A
further note about diction: There is an erroneous belief that good diction
fosters good vocalization. Although good diction unquestionably enhances
technical proficiency, it is relatively ineffective in the face of technical
deficiencies. Limited range, poor resonance, shortness of breath, throat
constriction and tremulous movements of the tongue and jaw are problems
related to poor physical coordination within the laryngeal pharynx that can
neither be corrected nor alleviated by diction).
Jjp: Again, you are wrong. Listen to the recordings, live or studio. In the
moments I pointed out, Nilsson sings the initial consonant of the word, then
performs a separate attack the high note on the first vowel of the word.
There is a
tiny but audible pause in the sound. That is when she makes the adjustment
between the registers. (CTB: Not so. She pauses in order to execute the
staccato
note called for in the score. The 'adjustment' has already been made, and
retained in balanced equilibrium during the pause. Readers should not infer
that this adjustment is a conscious and mechanical action taken for each and
every sung note. One of the principal goals of study is to train the
technique so that every adjustment is reflexive, unconscious, balanced, and
instantaneous).
CTB: In the interest of clear terminology, "flipped" and "popped" have no
meaning in vocal pedagogy.
Jjp: "Flipped" means changing to the vocal position used for higher notes;
the sensation for the soprano is that the sound suddenly moves upward in the
head, like a coin being flipped into the air. (CTB: I see. What you may be
trying to
express, though I doubt you understand it, is the aural perception of the
textural changes which occur when the voice moves from one extreme of its
range to its opposite, when swelling and diminishing, or when negotiating
larger intervals. Every pitch, every intensity level, and every vowel
requires, ideally, a special setting of the vocal folds with regard to their
length, thickness and elasticity. Each of these dimensions produces
modifications of texture which are identifiable with either the chest voice
or the head voice. Since the symptoms associated with these mechanisms
correspondingly create vibratory impulses centered in the chest and the
head, both the change in registration and the symptoms aroused give the
impression that the voice "rolls, or rotates, from one type of sensation and
one locale to another. This is known as 'register rotation', not as
"flipped").
Jjp: "Popped" means that the singer puts breath pressure behind slightly
tensed cords, "popping" them open and beginning their vibration suddenly.
Most
singers use a "popping" attack on extreme high notes. (CTB: This is, of
course, a
formulation for disaster. Two important factors are involved in the physical
process which yields vocal tone. One is the tensing of the vocal folds,
which enables them to meet the requirements of various
pitch-intensitypatterns. The other is the positioning of the of the larynx
observation. I have seen and listened to Miss Sutherland many times. And the
The Grand Inquisitor
The Grand Inquisitor
its own hands.
CTB
Benjamin Rochefort
answered my original query. Sorry about the confusion created because of
my use of the term 'scoop', I should have written 'swoop' or portamento
(but then I didn't even know what a portamento was !).
--
Benji di Parigi
andre35
A.
MD
>
>
> Jjp: Sutherland's voice was notable for great agility and brilliance of tone
> on top;
> an even scale was never one of her strongest features.
EXCUSE ME???!!!! The most seamless scale since Rosa Ponselle, regardless of
what you may consider her other faults. I'm always amazed that people who have
no concept of what they're talking about take paragraph after paragraph to make
their point.... in this inane "dance" about vocal pedagogy, about which neither
of you gentlemen seems to have too firm a grip, I just couldn't let the above
statement go unchallenged. Listen to her two octave scale passages in the
Julius Caesar excerpts and tell me again that she was not known for an even
scale.....