"Ernani", one of Verdi's best?
Lloyd
In my libretto to this wonderful opera, William Weaver is the author of
the preface, which, in my view, gives a lucid and highly informative
review of "Ernani"s importance in Verdi's development as probably the
world's greatest opera composer. If any of you agree with the above, why
do we not have more posts in this Discussion Group about "Ernani",
Verdi's first of his "bandit" operas?
BTW, my set feaures Pavarotti, Sutherland, Nucci, and Burchuladze, in
the main roles, with Bonynge conducting the orchestra and chorus of the
Welsh National Opera. I believe the singing to be very good, and not
surprisingly, for Welsh singers, the choral work is superb!
Lloyd
david...@aol.com
main roles, with Bonynge conducting"
The trouble is you have to put up with Bonynge and Sutherland.
-david gable
Mrs T xx
What's wrong with Sutherland? I mean that as a perfectly genuine
question as I thought (perhaps wrongly) that she was universally
considered as extremely bloody good.
I have her CD recordings of Traviata, Trovatore, Rigoletto, Faust (and
a few others probably) and was very impressed by her clearness of tone
and impeccable coloratura. I'm certainly not an expert (just an
amateur sop myself) but I always really liked her voice and never
noticed any obvious "flaws" before....
Can anyone clarify pls??
Tks
Mrs T xx
Lloyd
I also found that Sutherland started off in this set, quite tentative
and even weak. However, as the opera progressed, she was good to very
good and in the duets, she was exceptionally pleasant to hear.
Boynge's conducting didn't turn me on, but I thought the orchestra
played well. But how about the opera?
Lloyd
Mark
It is thought by many that her diction is less than clear. I have many
of her recordings and enjoy her voice quite a bit, myself.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
time!
As with all Verdi...there are moments of great beauty and power...but that's
about it. Which could explain why the opera is not performed as often as
other Verdi's wonderful works.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Lloyd" <lpis...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14375-44...@storefull-3155.bay.webtv.net...
Ken Meltzer
Jon E. Szostak, Sr. wrote:
> Lloyd: I'm one of those people who personally thinks the opera sucks big
> time!
>
> As with all Verdi...there are moments of great beauty and power...but that's
> about it. Which could explain why the opera is not performed as often as
> other Verdi's wonderful works.
>
> Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Ernani is not my favorite Verdi, but it does have one of the most
beautiful baritone roles in any of his operas. For me, the whole opera
is worth it just to hear Carlo's great third-act scene. I also like
the tenor role a great deal, although didn't Tucker refuse to sing it,
calling it a "comprimario" part? Del Monaco, Bergonzi, Corelli and
others certainly didn't think so.
Anyway, lots of full-blooded excitement, and in Carlo's part and the
final trio, something much greater.
Best,
Ken
Lloyd
Mark, I think you put your finger on Sutherland's greatest weakness -
her poor diction. Otherwise, the general opera-listener surely isn't
wrong in acknowledging Dame Joan's marvellous coloratura and her breath
control.
Lloyd
Lloyd
During the brief time that I have participated in the Discussion Group,
your comments have impressed me great deal. Therefore, I am perplexed
that you say that Verdi only had "moments" of great beauty and power! I
believe that in Aida, Trovatore, Traviata, Otello, Don Carlos, and
Rigoletto, ( just to name a few), Verdi composed incredible hours of
music that has spell-bound opera lovers all this time.
Notwithstanding the above, I appreciate your comment about "Ernani".
Lloyd
donpaolo
me, contains some of the most challenging, rousing & great singing ever
penned for this particular vocal category...guess I have MacNeil in mind!!!
DonPaolo
"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:KNOdnQ4tcaPtKdvZ...@comcast.com...
Richard Loeb
25732-44...@storefull-3157.bay.webtv.net...
I think that Jon is correct - Verdi wasn't always right all of the time -
there are moments in some of the earlier works that are just not very good
music - Verdi is sometimes accused of writing "oomp-pah-pah" music and that
music does rear its head in Macbeth, Rigoletto, Ernani, his galley
works----there are also moments that are, in fact, lousy music - e.g. the
dreadful music written for Leonora in the middle of Di quella pira. In the
recent Luisa Miller broadcast I heard some bouncy music which really did not
fit the dramatic situation.However, I will say that I think Aida, Otello and
Falstaff are brilliant dramatically and musically first note to last.
I guess what I trying to say is that I don't know of any operatic composer
who doesn't have moments of either musical or dramatic weakness - Wagner,
Mozart, Puccini, Verdi, all of them. Richard
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Hell...even Tucker refused to sing the damn thing. There's just not enough
for me in this opera to allot the time to listen. Arias, excerpts...sure!
But other than that...it's just not my cup of tea. De gustibus!
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:btadnSuHRfx5I9vZ...@rcn.net...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
her fans who were constantly thrilled beyond belief at the sound of her
immense artistry.
Speak to the audiences who stood screaming 'Brava!' for so long that they
could no longer clap...that her diction was bad.
I sang chorus to a goodly number of her performances at LOC. Sometimes even
we on stage couldn't always understand just what she was singing...but it
sounded so good no one gave a damn.
One of the greatest artist of all time...with a vocal technique which very
few others could even come near duplicating. A great colleague...with an
incredible sense of humor and most approachable to all her fans and
colleagues.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Lloyd" <lpis...@webtv.net> wrote in message
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REG
Ecco un' artiste!
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1145469267.7...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
david...@aol.com
"But how about the opera?"
The short answer is that I love it. Parts of it are magnificent.
Others I can live without. I'm inordinately fond of the whole last
act. Well, once the revellers are done. Not that I mind them, but
it's the music for Elvira, Ernani, and Silva in the last act that I
love. The concertato at the end of the third act--and indeed the third
act as a whole--is one of the peaks in the early Verdi's output. I
love Elvira's line, "Ogni cor serba un mistero."
Ernani is the baritone's opera. Don Carlo is the only human being in
it. Verdi used a lighter touch in writing Carlo's music than elsewhere
in the opera, a light touch of a kind rare in his operas for many years
to come, and it's because he used so light a touch that he succeeded in
painting something resembling a three-dimensional portrait. Ernani and
Silva are mere Romantic types, monsters lacking the three dimensions of
Carlo: each has a couple of emotions in his quiver and nothing else in
the way of personality. Despite the beauty of "Infelice" and a
thrilling cabaletta added after the premiere, Silva is a crashing and
unsympathetic bore: he only exhibits one emotion, and at tedious
length.
I'm sympathetic to the Romantic theatre, and I like to think I have
some understanding of what Hugo was up to: I know what melodramatic
excess lent access to. But I cannot entirely grasp the ending of
Ernani. Oh, I know what happens. Ernani swears to kill himself when
Silva blows the horn, Silva blows it, and Ernani, true to his word,
keeps it. I also know that the ending of Hernani is a bit different
in that Hugo's heroine commits suicide along with Hernani. What I
can't understand is a brilliant critical intelligence like Theophile
Gautier's swallowing such an ending at the time of the battle of
Hernani. The fact that he could means there's something I'm not
getting, probably because I wasn't a young Frenchman in 1830. (I'm not
a young Frenchman in 2006.)
You might be interested in tracking down what little George Bernard
Shaw wrote about Ernani. He was capable of taking it perfectly
seriously and poking fun at it at the same time in the best Shaw
manner. The technique of guying what you then defend he learned from
Romantic irony. Stendhal and all that.
My favorite studio recording is
Price/Bergonzi/Sereni/Flagello/Schippers. Schippers is more exciting
in the live Met performances with Price, Bergonzi, MacNeil, and Tozzi
and Price, Corelli, Sereni, and Siepi. I find the Milanov-Del
Monaco-Warren-Siepi-Mitropoulos performance a major disappointment.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
"What's wrong with Sutherland? I mean that as a perfectly genuine
question as I thought (perhaps wrongly) that she was universally
considered as extremely bloody good."
She is extremely bloody good.
I have an enormous respect for Miss Sutherland. Technically, I think
she was a nearly flawless singer. There's nothing wrong with her basic
musicianship: she can count and sing in tune. Nevertheless, I don't
think she was remotely as musical as many other singers with the same
Reklam. I don't find her interesting either musically or expressively.
I do like her in a couple of brilliant Baroque show pieces--"The
Soldier tir'd," "Torniamo a vagheggiar" [sp?]--and she had a sense of
fun that shines through in aspects of, say, her Marie in Fille du
Regiment. But God forbid I should ever have to listen to her singing
the slow expressive music of Mozart or Bellini or pretending to storm
the heavens in Verdi. I prefer any number of singers to Sutherland in
Mozart or Verdi. In Bellini, I'd rather listen to Gencer or Callas.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
"In the recent Luisa Miller broadcast I heard some bouncy music which
really did not fit the dramatic situation."
Not in the last act, you didn't.
-david gable
Richard Loeb
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1145501658....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Nope it wasn't the last act!!!!!! Richard
david...@aol.com
Jon writes:
"everybody complains about her diction...even some of the thousands of
her fans who were constantly thrilled beyond belief at the sound of her
immense artistry."
Her poor diction doesn't bother me at all. I dislike her because I
don't hear any "immense artistry." All I hear is a brilliant
technique.
"Speak to the audiences who stood screaming 'Brava!' for so long that
they could no longer clap...that her diction was bad."
What would I learn from them? As much as I'd learn from the even
larger audiences that cheer Eminem to the rafters? (You are trying to
prove by statistical argument that Sutherland was great.)
-david gable
REG
say that the poor pronunciation is really irrelevant. I do agree that in a
general sense one can think of expressive musicians who don't enunciate
clearly (like, for example, instrumentalists), but I don't think the lack of
enunciation is a completely or even largely neutral event.....I think it
makes a real difference.
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1145502265....@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
david...@aol.com
"I think it makes a real difference."
Well, I'm hardly in favor of poor enunciation. I was mainly being a
wise guy in responding to Jon, but only on that one point. (The
implication of Jon's post was that people object to Sutherland's
enunciation but are then overwhelmed when they hear her sing. Neither
part of this equation applies to me: I never complain about her
diction and I could easily live without ever hearing her sing a note.)
-david gable
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
the fact they loved her artistry. There are a few singers that some listen
to just for their vocal qualities...that's the nature of singing in general.
Of course there are many reasons to like or dislike a particular
artist...tone...vocal production...acting...looks...stage
presence...musicianship...and all of the above. You pay's your money and
you take's your chances.
That audiences cheer Eminem does not necessarily make him a great singer
though...in fact I don't think he sings at all...just raps. As far as Rap
goes...I much rather they'd be hanging him FROM the rafters.
But again...de gustibus! If you don't enjoy her...or can't understand
her...do what I do to Eminem. Don't listen!!!!!
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1145502265....@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
REG
Thanks.
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1145503537.6...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ortrud
-Ortrud Jones
REG wrote:
> It's just too bad he doesn't have Cappucilli.
>
> Ecco un' artiste!
.
Steve Silverman
"Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:fcadnVMapYawWdvZ...@giganews.com...
>
> Verdi is sometimes accused of writing "oomp-pah-pah" music and that
> music does rear its head in Macbeth, Rigoletto, Ernani, his galley works
I wouldn't include Rigoletto here. Yes it contains some superficial music,
but it is deliberately written in this way for a specific dramatic purpose.
Unlike his earlier operas, where it was simply an integral feature of his
developing style.
Steve Silverman
CHSIII
> Her poor diction doesn't bother me at all. I dislike her because I
> don't hear any "immense artistry." All I hear is a brilliant
> technique.
>
Yes - you have catalogued your limitations before.
Lloyd
Richard....
Yes, in spite of his genius, Verdi was human, and therefore incapable of
perfection. The same must be said of all the other composers and human
beings, who tried to create something original.
Then, of course, it does become very human for some of us to postulate
that one artist is more accomplished than another. For this reason, I
will say that "Ernani" is not Verdi's best opera but that it contains
some passages and arias that do warrant universal acclaim. I will go all
out and opine that among opera composers, Giuseppe Verdi is the giant of
them all. (But I love opera - no matter who the composer. This does not
mean that all operas are equal.)
Lloyd
Lloyd
David, thank you for so much pertinent information. I remember reading
about GBS's criticisms of some operas, and in terms of the plot of the
particular story, he certainly had the credentials to be critical.
However, I believe that there were times when he delved too deeply into
the musical renditions and therefore became redundant.
Lloyd
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
I disagree and say...there is NO "...giant of them all..."! When you get to
the rarefied atmosphere of the likes of Wagner, Verdi, Mozart, Puccini,
Janacek, Mussorgsky...and their ilk...you really cannot in good conscience
state unequivocally that one is the greatest of all.
You may prefer one over the rest...but it certainly must end at that. For
me...and many others...Wagner takes 1st preference...but that's not to say
he was really greater than the others. All were great artists in their own
right...and each deserves their due and our respect.
As an aside...which is why I thoroughly detest the foul disrespect afforded
these composers by most of the production designers and directors these
days.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
(aka 'staunch Wagnerian')
"Lloyd" <lpis...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16321-444...@storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net...
Lloyd
Jon E. S. Sr.
I've said brefore that had Bizet lived to compose more operas, there is
no doubt in my mind that he might well have been crowned The GiANT. For
pure orchestral work, I have no trouble voting for Wagner. The vocal
part of his operas, for the most part, do not compare with Verdi.
In any event, I doff my hat to anyone, and certainly to you, for having
a studied and experienced opinion concernig mussic - i all its forms!
The bottom line is that we may have our different tastes and opinions,
but we all love opera.
Lloyd
david...@aol.com
"Yes - you have catalogued your limitations before."
Yes, it's very sad to need more than Sutherland was ever capable of
giving.
-david gable
donpaolo
is a let down). Should have been re-worked to allow the baritone to have
the last word & re-named Carlo Quinto, or something like that. The bit
about killing himself upon hearing the Horn Blowing at Midnight is pure
silliness, even for an opera plot!
DonPaolo
"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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donpaolo
DonP.
"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:e6adnaYS8-e2VNvZ...@comcast.com...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
certain of whether or not an artist could or would continue to surpass (or
even equal) themselves where they to live longer.
The time-line stops when we die. Period! No amount of conjecture can
ensure greatness beyond the grave...at least not on this plane of existence.
It's nice to think so of course...but unfortunately it doesn't tally with
the reality of things.
That Wagner or Verdi or any others would have done more and perhaps better
can't be construed with certainty. Look at R. Strauss...he pretty much was
at a loss for operatic composition by the end of his life...and some would
say long before then.
I've stated on a number of occasions what you've echoed in your last
sentence. I'm glad we agree on that point...as I'm certain do most RMO
denizens.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Lloyd" <lpis...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:25732-444...@storefull-3157.bay.webtv.net...
david...@aol.com
"If you don't enjoy her...or can't understand her...do what I do to
Eminem. Don't listen!!!!!"
This is reasonable advice, but even following reasonable advice is
fraught with problems in the real world. There are recordings of
operas featuring Sutherland and Bonynge where the competition is
limited. Furthermore, I'm a great admirer of Signor Pavarotti, in most
of whose studio recordings he was coupled with Sutherland with Bonynge
at the helm.
-david gable
Mark D Lew
Szostak, Sr. <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote:
> That audiences cheer Eminem does not necessarily make him a great singer
> though...in fact I don't think he sings at all...just raps. As far as Rap
> goes...I much rather they'd be hanging him FROM the rafters.
Eminem is a great rapper. I resisted him for a long time, due to his
reputation, which I found unpleasant, but in fact he's very very good.
I agree that he doesn't sing. (He agrees, too.) Rapping and singing
aren't the same.
mdl
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
such lyric speaking can be extremely difficult. I merely don't like the
subject matter and prose...with lyrics that are mostly puerile and nasty for
the most part. That and the extremely repetitious sound...it all sounds the
same to me.
If one likes it...God bless! I really don't! De gustibus.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Mark D Lew" <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:210420060345111328%mark...@earthlink.net...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
well)...I always found his conducting mundane and uninspired for the most
part...although his ballet recordings are not all that bad.
His place in history was turning her away from the heavier repertoire to the
'bel canto' side of singing. For that...I'll be eternally grateful.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1145595262.2...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Sergio da Silva
because although Sutherland is past her prime, her big manner delivery and
coloratura fit the role.
But it is far from my favorite set.
I still prefer Domingo,Freni,Bruson,Ghiaurov/Muti live. It has its problems
but it is superbly sung (Domingo and Bruson are excellent).
Then there is the Mitropolous Florence with Del Monaco,Cerquetti,Bastianini
and Christoff, a stellar cast with a spetacular conductor.
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
shir...@hotmail.com
to write this opera. And some of the music shows flashes of the later
Verdian genius. I like "Oh de' verd'anni miei." BUT... the first time
I listened to Ernani, I didn't particularly like it, I think the plot
is remarkably silly, and while the music of Trovatore is enough to make
me overlook THAT unlikely plot, the music of Ernani isn't wonderful
enough yet to make me overlook the shortcomings of the opera's plot.
At least, not for me. I do not currently own a recording of it. Perhaps
I would warm to it if I listened again. But I listened to the
Bergonzi/Price recording, and the opera STILL didn't do much for me.
Melissa
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<shir...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1145686982.5...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Lloyd
I'm glad to have read your post. However, I hope that the plots of
operas are not the general motivation for accepting, liking, rejecting,
or hating the music. I frankly liken most opera plots to the inane
"soap-operas" of radio and television.
Be that as it may, perhaps you will listen to the complete opera again,
and pay particular attention to the many duets and quartets. I did find
that there were several places where the singing turned me on, while I
kept searching for the Verdian aria. Then, in other places, my marginal
notes in the libretto penned the all-familiar sentiment, "THIS IS
TYPICAL VERDI".
While I won't say that "Ernani" is one of Verdi's best, I think it was
the forerunner of some of his great operas.
Lloyd
Sergio da Silva
I just listened to XM Radio Vox yesterday and they relayed the complete
Ernani from Florence in 53 with Del Monaco,Cerquetti,Bastianini and
Christoff. It was a delight from beginning to end. I specially love the end
when Ernani dies at Elvira's arm with lovely music.
Granted the plot is silly but many operas share the same fate.
The fact is Ernani is terribly difficult to sing and requires four major
singers. And Elvira is the most difficult to cast because it is a
coloratura, lyric and spinto role all at the same time. Leontyne Price for
example fails and badly at the coloratura side while Sutherland shines
exactly on that but misses the point on the other. Of all recordings the
singer who was best in the role is Montserrat Caballe, she recorded it for
RAI at the height of her powers (although she lacks a trill). The young
Sutherland could have been great (her recording of the aria is superb) but
later she could not do the role full justice. Freni had a smaller voice than
the role requires and also failed at the coloratura but she is an engaging
performer.
There are so many chestnuts in this opera I'm surprised some don't like it.
Here is a mini-guide:
"Comme ruggida al cespite...O tu che all'alma adora" (Ernani's big aria - it
is however tricky to sing specially the cabaletta, the big voices like Del
Monaco and Corelli ignore all the markings and bark over it, Domingo sings
it perfectly)
"Ernani, involami...Tutto sprezzo che d'Ernani" (Elvira's big aria, a hard
one to sing, it begins lyric and then ends in a dazzling coloratura
cabaletta - listen to young Sutherland)
"Da quel di che t' ho veduta" ( a deligthful duet between Carlo and Elvira -
listen to Bruson and Freni)
"Trio: Tu se', Ernani!" (a hot blood trio with Carlo, Elvira and Ernani -
again Bruson, Freni and Domingo are excellent here)
"Che mai vegg'io!...Infelice, e tuo credevi...Infin, che un brando vindice"
(a great bass aria for Silva - listen to Cesare Siepi's recital, it only has
the aria not the caballeta. For the caballeta you have to get the MET DVD
and listen to Raimondi who sings it with aplomb)
"Vedi come il buon vegliardo" (a great concertato with all the characters
with the baritone taking the lead).
I could go on but all the acts have delightful music and this is just Act I
!!!
I know why Jon does not like it, it has only one meaningful scene for the
chorus (Si ridesti il Leon di Castiglia) and it is not as good as the chorus
in Il Trovatore for example :-)
"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:2u2dnZgHO6wCrdfZ...@comcast.com...
Daniel Kessler
Sergio da Silva wrote:
Granted the plot is silly but many operas share the same fate.
...and every time that I recall that the hero of "Ernani" has to die on the
sound of the horn because of his sworn oath to do...makes me want to chuckle.
Lloyd
Senor da Silva, I am pleased to say that we are of the same mind! Muchas
gracias!
Lloyd
david...@aol.com
Relative to what? Wordsworth? The poetry of Boito in La gioconda that
you so much admire? Or, assuming that you believe his rapping meets
the minimum conditions for music, Beethoven? Verdi? Paul McCartney?
-david gable
Lloyd
Your post was very interesting and helpful, so it goes without saying
that I agree with your comments - except for what you said about the
chorsus. For example, at the very beginning of the opera, the "Evviva!
Beviam! beviam!"; then a little later, "Dunque verremo"; in the second
part, "Esultiamo! Letizia ne inondi"; and in the third part, "Ad
augusta"; and finally, at the end, " Oh, come felici gioiscon gli
sposi"; - all sung well by the famous Chorus of the Welsh National
Opera, in my CD set.
BTW, if you ever decide to write a mini guide for the rest of the opera,
I'd be delighted to read it.
Lloyd
tapef...@webtv.net
Agree completely, re the work's many "chestnuts", as well as enjoying
the recollections of it, and of these great recordings.
Ernani is musically among my Verdi favorites, and has been so since my
first hearing of it.
About Siepi, vis a vis Silva's Cabaletta: Didn't he sing it in the
MDM/Warren performance, but in an unexpected and unusual sequence? He
was one of the finest in the role, in any case.
LT
Sergio da Silva
I'll have him check :-)
I was mentioning the CD arias recently released in the Decca Classic Series.
<tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1145722310.1...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
REG
Since you're going to be a regular poster here, which is great, I have a
favor to ask - when you respond, could you include at least part of the post
you are responding to,because on my newsreader, when you don't, I can't see
who is immediately before you that you are answering.
Best
"Lloyd" <lpis...@webtv.net> wrote in message
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donpaolo
:>)
DonPaolo
"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:2u2dnZgHO6wCrdfZ...@comcast.com...
donpaolo
"Daniel Kessler" <dkes...@pop.cybernex.net> wrote in message
news:4448ECF8...@pop.cybernex.net...
> Granted the plot is silly but many operas share the same fate.
>
> ...and every time that I recall that the hero of "Ernani" has to die on
> the
> sound of the horn because of his sworn oath to do...makes me want to
> chuckle.
It DOES make me chuckle - every time I hear that agreement, I think of a
comic aside alla Sid Cesar & Carl Reiner in their mock Italian, turning to
the audience, winking & singing something like "Yeassa rrrighte - you ken
taka you horn & shove it to the northern part of Ameerrrikka - - - uppa you
ess....
DonPaolo
Andrew T. Kay
[Gable's distaste for Sutherland and Bonynge on their ERNANI]
> ditto plus Burchuladze was not very good either.
Was Burchuladze ever good? He always has sounded shaggy, ill-tuned and
careless of rhythms in my experience with him, which I'll admit is not
vast: a few studio recordings, a DVD of AIDA, some Met broadcasts. The
best-case scenario is that he'll be in a role that isn't a long one.
He's the only thing I don't like about, for example, the Levine/DG
ONEGIN.
> I still like this set
> because although Sutherland is past her prime, her big manner delivery and
> coloratura fit the role.
I can do without almost every element of this, being only a qualified
admirer of Sutherland (see David Gable's posts), and not being able to
stand Nucci or Burchuladze. I also rarely find Bonynge's conducting
inspiring (he does occasionally surprise me, as with the thrilling
conclusion to which he brings the baritone/bass duet in Act II of
PURITANI), and I do not recall this being one of the rarities. That
leaves an Ernani who is very good, but not one in a class by himself.
> But it is far from my favorite set.
> I still prefer Domingo,Freni,Bruson,Ghiaurov/Muti live. It has its problems
> but it is superbly sung (Domingo and Bruson are excellent).
Same here. What I most value of this, although I agree that all the
male leads are in fine fettle here (including Ghiaurov, who, late
though it is, has the means and the measure for Silva), is the
intensity of the conducting, and the power and precision that Muti gets
from his orchestral and choral forces. It's not just a sterile exercise
in prim exactitude either -- right from the start, those choristers
singing along with Ernani come charging out like a locomotive; their
focus and their zeal are remarkable. The problematic element here is
Freni; this seems to me one of her three great, indisputable Verdian
follies (the others being Aida and the FORZA Leonora). While she brings
her usual virtues of musicianship and personality to it and creates
appealing effects where she can, the sheer size of the role has her
sounding labored, nervous, and close to the limit of her resources too
much of the time. (She looks terrified trying to bellow out the aria in
the video version.)
If that's too big of a debit, or if someone has a particular antipathy
to one or more of the other participants, my runner-up choice would be
the Schippers/RCA. In this I miss the electricity and tension of the
above (partly owing, perhaps, to the above being a live recording; the
RCA sounds particularly studio-bound when one compares them), but
everyone on it is well qualified and satisfying nevertheless.
> Then there is the Mitropolous Florence with Del Monaco,Cerquetti,Bastianini
> and Christoff, a stellar cast with a spetacular conductor.
Unfortunately, that strands those of us who find Del Monaco and/or
Christoff hard to listen to. Shame, too, because Bastianini strikes me
as well nigh ideal for Carlo.
If I ever hear a recording of ERNANI that I have not heard, it will be
the live Gavazzeni (c. 1967?) with Caballé. I've read promising
things, although I understand that not only is it heavily cut but that
Gavazzeni rushes so mercilessly as to make Muti sound Valiumated.
For what it's worth, I have grown to love the opera. Not all of it is
at the same level, but little in it descends to the perfunctory, pro
forma level of so much of, say, ATTILA.
Todd K
grndp...@aol.com
Date: Wed, Apr 19 2006 11:14 am
Email: lpisa...@webtv.net (Lloyd)
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In my libretto to this wonderful opera, William Weaver is the author
of
the preface, which, in my view, gives a lucid and highly informative
review of "Ernani"s importance in Verdi's development as probably the
world's greatest opera composer. If any of you agree with the above,
why
do we not have more posts in this Discussion Group about "Ernani",
Verdi's first of his "bandit" operas?
BTW, my set feaures Pavarotti, Sutherland, Nucci, and Burchuladze, in
the main roles, with Bonynge conducting the orchestra and chorus of the
Welsh National Opera. I believe the singing to be very good, and not
surprisingly, for Welsh singers, the choral work is superb!
Lloyd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My opinion is that ERNANI, of all the operas before LUISA MILLER, is
Verdi's most successful, with Act III being his best single scene
before the last act of RIGOLETTO.
Author of "The Story of Giuseppe Verdi", Gabriele Baldini, apparently
agrees. His chapter on ERNANI is a must for understanding how Verdi's
music transcends his libretti.
Each act is progressively shorter than its predecessor. As Baldini puts
it: the soprano is wooed by three male voices. Her affinity with each
is directly proportionate to their vocal proximity to her tessitura.
As others have noted, the baritone is the real "hero" of the opera as
his character matures from vengeful lover to merciful monarch.
What could be more more Verdian than the sweeping phrase: "E vinctor
dei secoli..." or the wonderful choral response to "A Carlo Magno sia
gloria ed onor."
==G/P Dave
==G/P Dave
grndp...@aol.com
Date: Sat, Apr 22 2006 2:23 am
Email: shira...@hotmail.com
Groups: rec.music.opera
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Melissa
~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you can find it the MYTO recording from the Met offers a stellar
cast:
Del Monaco, Milanov, Warren and Siepi with James McCracken in a tiny
role. All led by Dimitri Mitropoulos.
The last act is surprising as that brief scene is expanded using ballet
music from other Verdi operas, most notably, MACBETH.
Warren's "O Sommo Carlo" is spectacular.
If this recording fails to do anything for you, then none will.
==G/P Dave
REG
there's enough recorded evidence that the great Elvira we really missed in
this last century was Ponselle. And wasn't there some guy named Enrico or
something like that?
Best
"Sergio da Silva" <dasi...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:9Sq2g.6334$t61....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:F6adnUkGtN5...@rcn.net...
Sergio da Silva
remember Milanov was disappointing and a trial to listen to.
<grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1145734893.6...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Ken Meltzer
Sergio da Silva wrote:
> Since my brother has this set I heard it once many years ago. Even so I
> remember Milanov was disappointing and a trial to listen to.
I agree. By that stage of her career, the kind of florid music that
Elvira has in her opening scene just didn't come easily to Milanov.
Still, del Monaco, Warren, and Siepi offer lots of thrills.
Best,
Ken
Sergio da Silva
to him. But he is such an intense performer and brings a lot of authority to
Silva that I forget the basically strange Slavic/Russian sound (not
something Burchuladze does).
Del Monaco sings sharp and sometimes tires on my ear but like Christoff he
is on fire that day, listen to how he sings "Io tuo fido saro..." in Act 1,
quite impressive.
Burchuladze did the following things I liked:
- First CD on Decca (it has some arias and songs), it is impressive
- The Commendatore in Karajan's Don Giovanni
- Padre Guardiano in La Foza conducted by Sinopoli
I also saw him live once as Ramfis in Aida and I enjoyed it (a big voice),
specially how he can be so sensitive sometimes, he did a splendid
pianissimo in begining of Act 3 ("...ogni mistero del umano a lei l'e
noto"). It is a very hard thing for a bass to do (although it is marked in
the score as so).
But his recent Kochubey in Mazeppa was a hit and miss, there is a hole in
the middle of the voice (judging from the broadcast), although he did bring
some gravitas to the part.
"Andrew T. Kay" <lastredl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1145731102....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
shir...@hotmail.com
I'm glad you do. Perhaps I should give it another listen. It HAS been
a long time. It's just that it failed to win me over during my
original introduction. (I mean, Elvira has THREE guys all hot for her
and they ALL show up in Act I??) Granted, many opera plots are not
known for their great lucidity or logic. But somehow, I just couldn't
digest Ernani.
Melissa
david...@aol.com
"My opinion is that ERNANI, of all the operas before LUISA MILLER, is
Verdi's most successful [ . . .]"
I suppose the strongest competition comes from Nabucco or the original
version of Macbeth. I have a lot of respect for I due Foscari,
although it might fall into the category of noble failure.
"[ . . . ] with Act III being his best single scene before the last act
of RIGOLETTO."
Act III is impressively sustained for the early Verdi, but I think the
last act of Luisa is at least as good as anything in Rigoletto or
Traviata. With the last act of Luisa Miller, Verdi is operating on a
higher plane altogether, the evidence for which claim is the ambition
and mastery it demonstrates. Verdi had never attempted a single
undivided 20-minute-long number like the Scena, preghiera, duetto, e
terzetto finale from Luisa before, and he wouldn't have been able to
pull it off if he had. The whole third act of Ernani is no longer than
that single number. And every aspect of the Luisa number exhibits a
new level of ambition and mastery from its harmonic language to the
level of the large-scale rhythm of the unfolding of its successive
movements.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
"I know that we could go on forever with 'what ifs', but it seems to me
that there's enough recorded evidence that the great Elvira we really
missed in this last century was Ponselle."
Exactly.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
"By that stage of her career, the kind of florid music that Elvira has
in her opening scene just didn't come easily to Milanov. Still, del
Monaco, Warren, and Siepi offer lots of thrills."
It may be a cheap shot, but I can't resist quoting the title of the
Time magazine review when that Met Ernani was new: "Early Verdi, Late
Milanov."
-david gable
Richard Loeb
vas
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1145756475....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> Grandpa Dave writes:
>
> "My opinion isn that ERNANI, of all the operas before LUISA MILLER, is
Why the original version of Macbeth?? - instead of the atmospheric "La Luce
langue" we get the dreadful "Trionfai" in the worst tradition of Italian
"showpieces"; Macbeths "Vada in fiamme" a standard revenge piece that is far
weaker musically and dramatically than the Macbeth-Lady Macbeth duet that
replaced it. I do think that Macbeths last act aria though is wonderful and
should be placed in the revised version. Richard
david...@aol.com
"Why the original version of Macbeth??"
Richard, I didn't say I preferred the original version of Macbeth. I
don't. In fact, on that subject I agree with you right down the
line. But Grandpa Dave was talking about the pre-Luisa operas, and
that necessarily excludes the revision of Macbeth.
Lest you think there's no disagreement between us, I should add that
I'm much less dismissive of the conventions and traditions of the
primo ottocento than you are. In your assessment of the relative
virtues of the two Macbeth's, you indict not only the first version
of Macbeth, but also, implicitly, the whole primo ottocento tradition.
You object to "the dreadful 'Trionfai'" because it's "in
the worst tradition of Italian 'showpieces,'" to Macbeth's
"Vada in fiamme" because it's "a standard revenge piece."
Verdi's development was not the consequence of a gradual abandonment
of the primo ottocento tradition that nourished him. As with every
other artist, Verdi's development was rooted in a tradition that he
transformed, in Verdi's case a tradition that he knew better than we
do and loved. Verdi was only capable of transforming the tradition
because he had mastered it.
Elsewhere in this thread, you remark:
"In the recent Luisa Miller broadcast I heard some bouncy music
which really did not fit the dramatic situation."
The "bouncy" music in Luisa might well make me chuckle when I heard
it, but I'm equally willing to bet that I wouldn't think it
didn't fit the dramatic situation. Verdi thought it fit and with
very good reason: he operated within an internally consistent system
of inherited conventions, the recourse to which seemed perfectly
natural to him, and the more you're steeped in primo ottocento opera,
the more you see its logic and consistency.
-david gable
jeff
Luciano Pavarotti, Leona Mitchell, Ruggero Raimondi, Sherrill Milnes
I prefer the radio broadcast from the same season but both capture
Pavarotti in great voice. Everyone else is in excellent form. Check out
the comments at Amazon -- there are so many Pavarotti/Milnes/Mitchell
bashers here, it's not surprising this release was ignored. Of all the
Ernani's I have heard, the Sutherland was the only one I sold off --
all of them are way too past their primes. However, there is a
recording of Sutherland, Horne and Pavarotti doing the trio (Horne as a
bass) from a recital at Lincoln Center which is beautifully sung.
Lloyd
Yes, REG, I will try to remember to do what you requested.
Lloyd
Richard Loeb
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1145773017.8...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Take it easy there David - I think I understand Verdi's development as an
operatic composer - but lousy music is lousy music - a comprehension of why
it might be in the score at any point in history does not change its
musico-dramatic value. As with any great composer, you really cannot
separate music from drama, and its pretty clear to me me that often Verdi
stuck to the conventions of the time when he was composing; even there he
wasn't right all of the time -
The Luisa Miller example I referred to is the duet between Rodolfo and
Frederica at the end of Act 1 sc.2., Dramatically, the scene is charged with
emotion - she has just learned the Rodolfo is not interested in her but
another - he asks for forgiveness; she will give none - however the duet is
an extremely banal piece of music that has nothing of the import needed. The
first time I heard Luisa Miller was the recent broadcast and I must say it
immediately hit me that the music was really not a good "fit" for what was
happening on stage. I just checked with Budden to see what he has to say and
I must say that, for what it's worth, he agrees - the music really has no
connection to the drama at all. I agree with you that Verdi knew through and
though the musical conventions of the time - that doesn't mean however that
the music he wrote necessarily fit the dramatic situation. He wasn't right
all of the time.
There are other examples I can give you and with other composers including
Rossini and Wagner.
The point I am making is that, though I understand why some arias or duets
of somewhat dubious dramatic and even musical value may be in the score at
any point in the development of a composer, that does not make the music any
better, nore valuable or relevant.. The fact is the great composers also
wrote some music that wasn't so great. Richard
david...@aol.com
"Take it easy there David"
Richard, I thought I responded reasonably dispassionately to your
remarks.
-david gable
Mark D Lew
<"david...@aol.com"> wrote:
> Relative to what? Wordsworth? The poetry of Boito in La gioconda that
> you so much admire? Or, assuming that you believe his rapping meets
> the minimum conditions for music, Beethoven? Verdi? Paul McCartney?
Relative to most rappers today. I am comparing him to neither singers
nor poets. (I am, however, comparing him to those who read poetry
aloud, which in my mind is approximately what rap is a form of.)
On the question of whether rap qualifies as music, I think that's
largely a semantic question, one which is greatly obscured by the fact
that for many people the definition of music is "music that I like".
Personally, I think rap is best appreciated if it is not considered to
be "music", but from an academic standpoint I think it's hard to
formulate a definition of music which excludes it that doesn't also
exclude other works one does want to consider music.
mdl
Mark D Lew
<"grndp...@aol.com"> wrote:
> What could be more more Verdian than the sweeping phrase: "E vinctor
> dei secoli..." or the wonderful choral response to "A Carlo Magno sia
> gloria ed onor."
I, too, love this wonderful chorus.
For those who missed earlier iterations of this discussion, this tune
-- like the more famous chorus from Nabucco -- became an anthem for
Italian nationalism.
In 1846, when Ernani was in its second year of success, the
conservative, pro-Austrian Pope Gregory XVI passed away. For the first
time in generations, the Habsburg candidate for the Papacy was defeated
and the liberal Cardinal Mastai-Ferretti was elected as Pius IX.
As it later unfolded over his long pontificate, Pius IX gradually grew
less liberal and eventually came to be as much an enemy of nationalism
as Gregory ever was, but early in his term he was the focus of the
hopes and inspirations of the neo-Guelf brand of nationalism [*]. One
of Pius's first acts as Pope was to pardon most of the Papacy's purely
political prisoners, thus connecting him in the public's mind to Carlo
Quinto of the opera.
mdl
[*] Prior to the Unification in the 1860s, Italy was composed of
several small and medium-sized states. One of these was the Papal
States, a large area in central Italy for which the secular ruler was
the Pope in that capital in Rome. In casting about for possible rulers
of a united Italian kingdom, some felt that the Pope was the best
candidate. This view was commonly termed "neo-Guelfism".
Richard Loeb
news:1145825435.7...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
indictment of the whole primo ottocento" - where did that come from?????
believe me it was no such thing - just a comment about the the musical and
dramatic value of that specific piece of music (Trionfai - which I think is
pretty bad both musically and dramatically) - so did Verdi when he replaced
it with something far better Richard
atsar...@hotmail.com
attracted by the PLAY before he began work on the OPERA, and the first
collaboration with Piave, who usually did what he was told and would
eventually produce Rigoletto, Traviata and Boccanegra. The story is
extremely clear (as was never true when Solera was the librettist) and
the characters extremely simple and uncomplicated -- just a few years
later, they would all have bored Verdi out of his skull; at this point
in his career, he just tossed tunes at them and didn't worry much about
personalities. That considered, they're very exciting tunes, and the
opera's popularity for its first hundred years is easy to understand,
as is its fall from grace now that we prefer more probing,
psychological Verdi. (The dearth of decent Verdi sopranos doesn't help
matters.)
The recording from Decca is certainly NOT the one I would recommend --
I'd put the RCA with young and juicy Leontyne Price, young and
ever-suave Bergonzi, young and authoritative Flagello and, alas, Mario
Sereni sleepwalking as Don Carlo way ahead. There's a wonderful video
(from La Scala?) with Bruson just dandy as the king and Freni and
Domingo as the lovers.
Bonynge never understood Verdi and could never be propulsive -- his
Trovatore is just WRONG. For another thing, Sutherland did not sing
Elvira until she was fairly mature -- over 50 -- and somewhat set in
her ways. She could still do amazing things -- I last heard her Lucia
when she was almost 60, and the vocalism was still extraordinary -- but
she did not project passion very often. (Her video of Lucrezia Borgia
is even later -- she looks matronly, which is appropriate to the
character, but sings the bejezus out of it.) Her recording of Elvira's
aria from1959 is silvery and sublime, very much about young love and
sublime coloratura as her performance on the complete recording is not.
I just attended Acis and Galatea at the New York City Opera, and every
time the soprano opened her pretty mouth and cooed pretty sounds, I
thought, "Oh Joan, even TODAY you could sing this girl into the ground.
As for 1960 when you made that flawless recording...." Well, friends,
it was kinda sad. (The guys were good, though.)
Sutherland is deplored by many, adored by others. Controversy is good
for art. She certainly had the most perfect coloratura technique of her
day, but she had no conception of how to become a stage personality
other than herself. Some people know how to do that by instinct, and
others never figure it out.
Verdi was a genius, and Ernani was one of his earliest hits, as it
deserved to be. (It was the first Verdi opera heard outside Italy --
thanks to Donizetti, who was running the Imperial Opera in Vienna, and
staged it, and probably wrote the basso's cabaletta.) It suited the
taste of the times. But the times changed, and Verdi is one of the
forces that changed them.
Hans Lick
Andrew T. Kay
> The recording from Decca is certainly NOT the one I would recommend --
> I'd put the RCA with young and juicy Leontyne Price,
Wasn't she about 40 when that was made? I nitpick, of course. It's
singing of a high order by a performer who had many good years left;
it's just that I would consider her a mite past young and juicy. That
description better fits her stunning "Blue Album" of Puccini/Verdi
stuff conducted by de Fabritiis; the Reiner Verdi Requiem (too bad
Schippers, or just about anyone else, wasn't conducting *that*), and
her first complete Aida and Tosca.
> young and
> ever-suave Bergonzi, young and authoritative Flagello and, alas, Mario
> Sereni sleepwalking as Don Carlo way ahead.
At least he's of mellifluous voice and on good behavior. He's an odd
one for me -- I usually find him pleasant to listen to on studio
recordings, but he's like a different singer on live recordings I have
(AIDA, DON CARLO), and not in the complimentary way that that is
usually meant. In front of an audience, he seems to have had a tendency
to resort to huffing and puffing and doing crude, blowsy things with
the musical line in the service of, I guess, suggesting "passion" and
"intensity." It can be a bit embarrassing. All things considered, if
this is the alternative, I'd rather he be bland.
> There's a wonderful video
> (from La Scala?) with Bruson just dandy as the king and Freni and
> Domingo as the lovers.
That is indeed from La Scala, under Muti -- the controversial
production by Ronconi, reissued a couple years ago on a Kultur DVD. I
myself prefer to listen to EMI's audio-only version (I find Ronconi's
concept a bit cold and clinical), but someone interested in this opera
could do well by ordering the Schippers/RCA and the Muti DVD.
As to the question posed in the title of this thread, it depends. Verdi
wrote about 28 operas, and this one could fairly be said to fall near
the middle. I'd have to be in an extremely generous mood toward it to
get it into the top *ten*, but certainly it's one of the essential
early (pre-RIGOLETTO) works, along with NABUCCO, MACBETH, LUISA MILLER,
and the still-terribly-underrated STIFFELIO. If the revised version of
MACBETH is off limits (which it fairly must be, I suppose), ERNANI may
even be my favorite of that quintet.
Todd K
david...@aol.com
"at this point in his career, he just tossed tunes at them and didn't
worry much about personalities."
This is completely untrue. But it is precisly the false view of primo
ottocento opera that I object to.
"Donizetti [ . . . ] probably wrote the basso's cabaletta"
Nope. Silva's cabaletta was added for the first performance at La
Scala on 3 September 1844.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
I love Sereni's performances as Don Carlo both on RCA and in the live
Met performance with Price, Corelli, Siepi, and Schippers. I don't
find him the least bit dull in either case. But I have heard live
Sereni performances of the unfortunate type Todd describes. (I like
him in the De los Angeles/Serafin Traviata, too, although I am a bit
let down by his Belcore in the Freni/Gedda L'elisir.)
-david gable
shir...@hotmail.com
pleasure in this opera in the least. I haven't listened to a "bad"
Verdi opera yet, although there are operas of his that I'm less crazy
about. I just feel that he improved with age, and Aida and Otello could
not possibly have been written better, or written at all by anyone but
Verdi. The man was quite simply a genius, and Italian opera would be
infinitely poorer without him. I think part of the trouble was that
when I first heard Ernani, I had high expectations that were somehow
not met. And I haven't revisited it since.
I definitely don't expect Opera plots to make all that much sense. I
like Ballo in Maschera and that one DEFINITELY has a silly plot. But
every opera has it's own integrity, if you will. And lines that would
be ridiculous if they were merely spoken, make much more emotional
sense when they are sung.
Melissa
Ken Meltzer
david...@aol.com wrote:
> I love Sereni's performances as Don Carlo both on RCA and in the live
> Met performance with Price, Corelli, Siepi, and Schippers.
David-
There's also a late-50s performance with del Monaco where Sereni is in
absolutely gorgeous voice. MYTO has issued this one.
Best,
Ken
david...@aol.com
Richard wrote:
"Yes but my statement about a "showy piece........" somehow evolved
into"an indictment of the whole primo ottocento" - where did that come
from????? "
I'm not trying to be quarrelsome, and I can only seem to be splitting
hairs, but to object to an Italian composer's resort to "the standard
X" or to "the typical Y" rather than objecting to a particular
unfortunate instance of X or Y is to object to the system as a totality
rather than to a failed instance of the system at work.
As for bouncey Luisa, I conceded that I, too, have chuckled at such
passages from Italian opera: so did Gilbert and Sullivan, who guyed,
for example, the "cat-like tread" of the typical conspirator from
Italian opera. But to claim that such a bouncey passage or that a
cat-like tread is "inappropriate" to the dramatic situation is to claim
that there is some transcendent standard of appropriateness to which
the examples can be compared. It is quite obvious that neither the
primo ottocento composer nor the primo ottocento audience member
thought either bounciness or cat-like tread was remotely inappropriate:
living inside the system they didn't chuckle where we who live outside
it can't help but. Neverthelelss, we, too, can relearn the conventions
governing primo ottocento opera, learn to submit to them again, at
which point our objections will come from inside the system.
What I am calling "the system" is close to being synonymous with the
word "tradition," and far more powerful than any composer and far more
responsible for the music he writes is the tradition he stems from. It
is not only Verdi but the primo ottocento tradition that Verdi was born
into that ultimately produced Otello. His principal master and model
was the despised Gaetano Donizetti. When Verdi wrote Falstaff, he was
taking on the master's Don Pasquale just as surely as Beethoven picked
up the gauntlet that Bach threw down with the Goldberg Variations when
he set out to write the Diabelli Variations.
-david gable
Richard Loeb
David Melnick
> It is quite obvious that neither the
> primo ottocento composer nor the primo ottocento audience member
> thought either bounciness or cat-like tread was remotely inappropriate:
> living inside the system they didn't chuckle where we who live outside
> it can't help but.
I love the historical appreciation of conventions as much as
the next guy, but that's a pretty big assumption, isn't it?
For example, in the 1940s and early 50s (before the
convention changed of having an orchestra playing behind
almost every scene), moviegoers were sensitive to when
background music was "appropriate" and when it wasn't quite.
Actually, with the distance of a couple of generations,
some of that particular sensitivity has become dulled, and
people note the convention of "lots of music in the
background" in the period and the different types of music
according to the type of film and the moment in it (and for
some, from composer to composer), but not all the
distinctions of decorum people made then.
People in the 1840s might well have heard some accompanying
figures in early Verdi and laughed when they weren't
"supposed to" laugh. Most operas of most composers failed,
after all, and among the reasons may have been just such a
failure of appropriateness of the music to the emotion being
portrayed.
I have taken years to appreciate some of the more
elementary (I won't say "oompah") figures and even melodies
at moments in early Verdi, and I attribute this gain in my
appreciation not to an acceptance of a specific historical
convention, but rather to my understanding how appropriate
they are by a "transcendent standard" (historically
situated, of course, but situated across 400 years of music,
not the first half of the 19th century).
dav
Ortrud
-Ortrud Jones
david...@aol.com wrote:
> "my set feaures Pavarotti, Sutherland, Nucci, and Burchuladze, in the
> main roles, with Bonynge conducting"
>
> The trouble is you have to put up with Bonynge and Sutherland.
>
> -david gable
.
REG
was already some queasiness with some of the conventions, and Stendahl, for
lots of complicated reasons, was a great Rossini partisan. I do think,
however, David, that some of what we hear as bounciness, particularly in the
battle music, would not have been necessarily heard that way. Remember until
the 19th century, and in fact until well into it, military battles were
often fought in formation. There were always musicians associated with the
armies, specifically during the assaults, and they kept the soldiers in line
with martial music that was at least closely related to the music that we
often hear as trivial or irrelevant today.
"David Melnick" <dmel...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Pdc3g.97008$4P2....@fe03.news.easynews.com...
atsar...@hotmail.com
I never heard Bergonzi sound other than suave and in perfect control in
live performance (aside from the final Otello). I first heard him in
1970, in Ballo, an ideal that no Riccardo since has equaled.
No you couldn't call Ernani near the middle, unless you include 20
works as Verdi's middle period. It was his early period -- this was his
fifth opera. The middle period does not begin until (your choice)
Stiffelio, Luisa Miller, Rigoletto, or Vepres.
Most of Macbeth -- all the big numbers except La luce langue -- dates
from 1847.
Personal opinion: Jerusalem is better than Nabucco or Stiffelio.
Certainly it ranks with the best of the other pre-Luisa operas.
Hans Lick
Andrew T. Kay
[At the time of the RCA ERNANI]
> Price was in her mid-30s and SOUNDED young and juicy.
The recording was made in July 1967. This means she was 40 on the dot
(unless you
have information that her official date of birth of 10 February 1927 is
erroneous, and that she's always claimed to be older than she is.
Usually when people falsify that sort of thing, they go in the other
direction). She seems to me here to clearly be taking on the vocal
characteristics of her mature years -- duskier in the lower register,
thicker in the middle, the top not so much changed, but perhaps a
little smaller. A simple comparison with, say, the Reiner Verdi Requiem
or the PORGY excerpts or the first TROVATORE should bear this out.
Understand I'm not taking issue with your liking or recommending her
performance. I would not even take issue with your recommending her
remake of FORZA with Levine from almost ten years later. I would even
second the recommendation. She was an artist of great magnetism and she
made many good recordings. I just can't hear her as sounding "young" on
that ERNANI, because I know what she sounded like when she really
*was*.
> No you couldn't call Ernani near the middle, unless you include 20
> works as Verdi's middle period. It was his early period -- this was his
> fifth opera. The middle period does not begin until (your choice)
> Stiffelio, Luisa Miller, Rigoletto, or Vepres.
I thought it was clear that my "somewhere in the middle" did not refer
to chronology of composition but to the quality of this opera vis-a-vis
others by Verdi. I noted that I was attempting to address Lloyd's
question in the thread title. "Is ERNANI one of Verdi's best?" Well, I
went on to say, Verdi wrote about 28 operas, and this one falls
somewhere in the middle. It would be reasonable to say it's, say, about
the twelfth- or thirteenth-best. There are almost as many better ones
as lesser ones. *That* middle.
Todd K