recommendations on Carmen
bcheuk
Hi all,
I want to buy Bizet's Carmen and I need your recommendations on which
one to pick. I saw the new Sinopoli's (Jennifer Larmore as Carmen) on
Teldec which is on sales at HMV, is it any good?
Thanks in advance.
Ed (NY)
bcheuk <bch...@inforamp.net> wrote in article
<57bcc6$a...@news.inforamp.net>...
> There are many recordings of Carmen, and many more opinions. Since this
is certainly subjective, I'll offer mine.
Given my preference for musical drama, I have always loved the 1972
Bernstein MET recording. It achieves a wonderful dramatic tension that I
have not heard on other recordings. Its use of the spoken dialog adds to
that drama. I find the singing totally acceptable (I think Marilyn Horne
sang it very well, although she wasn't ideal on stage; the other roles are
done equally as well). However, the orchestra and conducting are the stars
here, and I recommend this version if that's what's important to you.
David M Pickering
Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.opera: 25-Nov-96 recommendations on
Carmen by bch...@inforamp.net
> one to pick. I saw the new Sinopoli's (Jennifer Larmore as Carmen) on
> Teldec which is on sales at HMV, is it any good?
This goes along with the comment made about the HvK "La Boheme": good
singers sabotaged by lousy conducting. I consider Larmore one of the
more exciting young singers out there today and Sinopoli to be possibly
the biggest fraud to mount the conducting podium in the last 30 years.
I would love to hear Ms. Larmore sing this part under a conductor who
does not choose his tempi by throwing darts at a dartboard. Btw, for
all the thrashing Angela Gheorghiu has taken on r.m.c. recently, her
Micaela on the Teldec set is quite good.
As to recordings: I don't think there's an obvious "first choice". I'd
recommed either the Beecham recording on EMI with Victoria De Los
Angeles or Solti's London/Decca recording with Tatiana Troyanos.
Dave
dp...@andrew.cmu.edu
http://www.psy.cmu.edu/~dp3u/dave.html
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WP
Could you elaborate on Mr. Sinopoli's "dartboard" tempi? I too had considered the Larmore version. I have
Sinopoli's "Salome" and his "Tannhauser" and am impressed by both (so were the CD buying guides) As for
Carmen, I have the 1964 Callas on EMI (her voice has started to go, but it's still a fun set) and also the von
Karajan. . . (oh my gawd! I've done it again. I'll hear about this one!) I've gotten some pretty good
recordings on the Teldec label, so, more info please on this one?
David M Pickering
Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.opera: 26-Nov-96 Re: recommendations on
Carmen by W...@slip.net
considered the Larmore
> version. I have Sinopoli's "Salome" and his "Tannhauser" and am
impressed by both (so were the
> CD buying guides) As for Carmen, I have the 1964 Callas on EMI (her
voice has started to go,
> but it's still a fun set) and also the von Karajan. . . (oh my gawd!
I've done it again. I'll
> hear about this one!) I've gotten some pretty good recordings on the
Teldec label, so, more
> info please on this one?
There seems to be no why or wherefore in Mr. Sinopoli's choice of tempi
in far too many of his performances. I have no objection to an
unusually slow tempo if a conductor is skilled enough to use this slow
tempo effectively (e.g., Knappertsbusch, Giulini, or Klemperer).
However I find this skill almost totally lacking in Sinopoli. I found
his recording of "Nabucco" to be almost unlistenable despite a fairly
good cast--among other things, he managed to turn "Va pensiero" into a
dirge.
The same can be said Sinopoli's "Tannhauser". This opera is about a man
literally torn between the sacred and the sensual and but you don't get
much of a sense of this conflict in Sinopoli's reading (it's a pity too
since this may be the best Wagnerian role for Placido Domingo's voice).
Sinopoli shares Von Karajan's tendency towards musical "coldness" but he
lacks any HvK's musical strengths.
Andrés Moreno Mengíbar
I prefer with no doubt the Berganza (what a Carmen!!!!)-Domingo-Cotrubas
(what a Micaela!!!!)-Milnes-Abbado on DG. A wonderful experience. The
Berganza art of singing builds the best Carmen I've never heard. Andres.
David M Pickering <dp...@andrew.cmu.edu> escribió en artículo
<4maP2x200...@andrew.cmu.edu>...
> Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.opera: 25-Nov-96 recommendations on
> Carmen by bch...@inforamp.net
> > I want to buy Bizet's Carmen and I need your recommendations on which
> > one to pick. I saw the new Sinopoli's (Jennifer Larmore as Carmen) on
> > Teldec which is on sales at HMV, is it any good?
>
> This goes along with the comment made about the HvK "La Boheme": good
> singers sabotaged by lousy conducting. I consider Larmore one of the
> more exciting young singers out there today and Sinopoli to be possibly
> the biggest fraud to mount the conducting podium in the last 30 years.
> I would love to hear Ms. Larmore sing this part under a conductor who
> does not choose his tempi by throwing darts at a dartboard. Btw, for
> all the thrashing Angela Gheorghiu has taken on r.m.c. recently, her
> Micaela on the Teldec set is quite good.
>
> As to recordings: I don't think there's an obvious "first choice". I'd
> recommed either the Beecham recording on EMI with Victoria De Los
> Angeles or Solti's London/Decca recording with Tatiana Troyanos.
>
>
Trat Colins
You know, a lot of people like Berganza, but after listening to this
recording I was not that impressed. The main reason I was not impressed
is that she sings with a lot of straight-tone. Now, my theory teacher
loves straight-tone, but I can't stand it at all. It has become
acceptable in the pop world, but not acceptable in the classical world.
That's just my opinion.
Peter J. Ullman
> I prefer with no doubt the Berganza (what a Carmen!!!!)-Domingo-Cotrubas
> (what a Micaela!!!!)-Milnes-Abbado on DG. A wonderful experience. The
> Berganza art of singing builds the best Carmen I've never heard. Andres.
I have not heard the recording, but isn't Berganza somewhat
"light-voiced" for the role of Carmen?
James G. Jorden
In <329E0A...@ix.netcom.com> "Peter J. Ullman"
<p_ul...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>I have not heard the recording, but isn't Berganza somewhat
>"light-voiced" for the role of Carmen?
Interesting question that really opens up a can of worms. Certainly we
are used to hearing big dramatic voices in this part, but a lighter
voice is certainly valid. Carmen is after all a young woman, and
playing her as a flirt as opposed to a femme fatale makes a lot of
sense. A lyric mezzo-soprano or even a soprano can bring something new
to this part and enjoy a great success, as did Regine Crespin at the
Met about 20 years ago, my very favorite Carmen of all. (This is in
contrast to a role like Amneris which really makes no sense except for
a dramatic mezzo: Horne and Baltsa both learned this to their sorrow.)
Berganza didn't do Carmen very much on stage, and was very careful
about the size of the theater and choosing a conductor who didn't think
"Carmen" was written by Wagner.
Jennifer Larmore just recorded "Carmen" with some success, and one of
these days I'll bet Bartoli takes it on.
jj
Mike Richter
Berganza's Carmen in Paris (on LaserDisc and VHS from Dreamlife) was too
light-voiced, too old - and by far the best on video. She is absolutely
persuasive in her interpretation and Domingo is better here than in any
other assumption of the role. Conducting and production are fine, but
neither Escamillo nor Micaela is acceptable to me. The interplay among
Carmen and the other gypsies is ideal and, thanks to the spoken
dialogue, works wonderfully well.
--
Mike Richter
mric...@mindspring.com
http://mrichter.simplenet.com
http://www.opera.it/FreeWeb/mrichter
Stefan
"Peter J. Ullman" <p_ul...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> I prefer with no doubt the Berganza (what a Carmen!!!!)-Domingo-Cotrubas
>> (what a Micaela!!!!)-Milnes-Abbado on DG. A wonderful experience. The
>> Berganza art of singing builds the best Carmen I've never heard. Andres.
>
>"light-voiced" for the role of Carmen?
Light-voiced ? Here we go again ? Who said Carmen should be Erda or
Dalila ? Definitely not Bizet. The first Paris Carmen Galli-Marié was a
kind of larger-voiced soubrette, creator of Mignon and also sang Serva
padrona, Zerlina, Bohemian Girl & etc She actually complained the final
tessitura was still somewhat low. The first recorded Carmen - Destinnova
was a Czech spinto - the most famous Aida at Met & Covent Garden. the
first Swedish Carmen was a light soubrette, etc. The sultry Carmen is a
later innvention. Do your home work. It-s fun.
Stefan J
Stefan Pilczek
bcheuk wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I want to buy Bizet's Carmen and I need your recommendations on which
> one to pick. I saw the new Sinopoli's (Jennifer Larmore as Carmen) on
> Teldec which is on sales at HMV, is it any good?
>
My recommendations for Carmen:
For the Guiraud version: de los Angeles/Beecham on EMI
For the version with spoken dialogue: Troyanos/Solti
Supplemented with the highlights disc of the Callas/Pretre set.
Also recommended (if you can find a copy) the deleted EMI References CD
of Supervia's recordings of Carmen excerpts, coupled with her complete
Rossini recordings. Some of the Carmen recordings are now available on
Nimbus (if you like their processing, which I don't) and Pearl (which I
haven't heard).
Try also the Pearl CD of Ninon Vallin, which has all of Carmen's main
numbers. The surfaces are on the high side (sometimes Pearl don't tame
them as they might), but it's worth listening through it for the singing.
And you'll also get superb performances of Lia's aria from Debussy's
"L'enfant prodigue" and 'Depuis le jour' from "Louise".
Happy listening.
Trat Colins
Stefan wrote:
>
> >
> >I have not heard the recording, but isn't Berganza somewhat
> >"light-voiced" for the role of Carmen?
>
> Light-voiced ? Here we go again ? Who said Carmen should be Erda or
> Dalila ? Definitely not Bizet. The first Paris Carmen Galli-Marié was a
> kind of larger-voiced soubrette, creator of Mignon and also sang Serva
> padrona, Zerlina, Bohemian Girl & etc She actually complained the final
> tessitura was still somewhat low. The first recorded Carmen - Destinnova
> was a Czech spinto - the most famous Aida at Met & Covent Garden. the
> first Swedish Carmen was a light soubrette, etc. The sultry Carmen is a
> later innvention. Do your home work. It-s fun.
> Stefan J
Ok, this brings up a good question. What type of voices are acceptable
as Jose and Carmen? I just listened to a live recording of Carmen with
Nicolai Gedda as Jose and Simionato as Carmen. Now, Gedda sings the
role beautifully, but IMO, he is not a Jose voice. I don't think you
have to have necessarily a dramatic voice for either Carmen or Jose, but
I do think you need a voice with some umph. I think a strong lyric can
get by doing the two roles, but not a strictly lyric voice such as
Gedda. And of course as someone else also mentioned, it would depend
upon your conductor in whether or not the conductor thinks Bizet is
Wagner or not.
But for my taste, I want somebody with some strength in their voice. OF
course that is just my preference. What do you all think?
Christina West
In article <329F40...@worldnet.att.net>, Trat Colins
<bjoe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Ok, this brings up a good question. What type of voices are acceptable
> as Jose and Carmen? I just listened to a live recording of Carmen with
> Nicolai Gedda as Jose and Simionato as Carmen. Now, Gedda sings the
> role beautifully, but IMO, he is not a Jose voice. I don't think you
> have to have necessarily a dramatic voice for either Carmen or Jose, but
> I do think you need a voice with some umph. I think a strong lyric can
> get by doing the two roles, but not a strictly lyric voice such as
> Gedda. And of course as someone else also mentioned, it would depend
> upon your conductor in whether or not the conductor thinks Bizet is
> Wagner or not.
>
> But for my taste, I want somebody with some strength in their voice. OF
> course that is just my preference. What do you all think?
I too find Gedda an excellent Jose, but agree that the part does benefit
from someone with rather more 'heft' in the tone. On the other hand, for my
money, the finest Carmen on record is still the (comparatively) light-voiced
de los Angeles - she is almost alone, too in discovering the HUMOUR of
Carmen - only Julia Migenes (who would be my second choice) comes close in
that respect. After those two, the blusterings of Horne and Resnik sound
faintly ridiculous. The fact that both de los Angeles and Migenes (and
Gedda) sing in good French is also an important point as far as I am
concerned.
What I would like to see more often is a MICAELA with more tone and volume -
I don't want Dmitrova or Marton, but someone of the weight of Freni would be
about right, as in the Norman/Schicoff version - pity I don't care for
Norman's Carmen....:=)
Christina
--
_________________________ ___________________________________________
| ____ | |
| / / / | xi...@argonet.co.uk |
| |___ hristina /_/_/est | |
|_________________________|_________________*ZFC__A*__________________|
James G. Jorden
In <na.c6c2b3473...@argonet.co.uk> Christina West
<xi...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
>
>for my money, the finest Carmen on record is still the (comparatively)
>light-voiced de los Angeles - she is almost alone, too in discovering
>the HUMOUR of Carmen - only Julia Migenes (who would be my second
>choice) comes close in that respect.
Try Crespin on Erato/RCA. She sings the whole role with a bemused
half-smile in the voice. This set also includes the finest Escamillo on
disc, Jose Van Dam.
jj
Peter J. Ullman
> Light-voiced ? Here we go again ? Who said Carmen should be Erda or
> kind of larger-voiced soubrette, creator of Mignon and also sang Serva
> padrona, Zerlina, Bohemian Girl & etc She actually complained the final
> tessitura was still somewhat low. The first recorded Carmen - Destinnova
> was a Czech spinto - the most famous Aida at Met & Covent Garden. the
> first Swedish Carmen was a light soubrette, etc. The sultry Carmen is a
> later innvention. Do your home work. It-s fun.
> Stefan J
Dear Sir:
What do you mean by "here we go again", and "do your homework"? I =
really do not understand what these statements have to do with voices =
for Carmen?
Surely for quite some time the role of Carmen has been sung by very =
well-known mezzos, i.e. Horne, Ludwig, Meier, Troyanas, etc.
Perhaps you could educate us all as to what Bizet had originally =
intended "his" Carmen to be? I have not been able to find any definite =
references.
And, if it turns out that it's a matter of choice, then I would still =
prefer a "darker" voice because at least IMHO it goes better with the =
role. Of course others may have different opinions.
Mike Richter
Peter J. Ullman wrote:
> Surely for quite some time the role of Carmen has been sung by very
> well-known mezzos, i.e. Horne, Ludwig, Meier, Troyanas, etc.
True, but it was classically sung by sopranos and altos as well. It is a
role capable of many interpretations and many women of various voice
categories and qualities have essayed it - with substantial success.
>
> Perhaps you could educate us all as to what Bizet had originally
> intended "his" Carmen to be? I have not been able to find any definite
> references.
The first Carmen was a lyric soprano - but that does not mean that it
was his choice. He wrote the music. If it is well sung by any voice
category in a sound interpretation, it should be worth hearing.
>
> And, if it turns out that it's a matter of choice, then I would still
> prefer a "darker" voice because at least IMHO it goes better with the
> role. Of course others may have different opinions.
My preferences include the Italian contralto Gabriela Besanzoni and the
Spanish soprano Victoria de los Angeles. I happen not to prefer Farrar's
selections, though it was a great success for her. For one of the great
readings - and one certainly not short at either end of the vocal range
- I turn quite often to Ponselle. Each of these artists presents a
concept of Carment different from any of the others, yet all seem
consonant with the score and with the libretto.
Christina West
In article <57n9c0$s...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, jjo...@ix.netcom.com(James
I did have the Crespin recording many moons ago, and she was indeed a fine
Carmen. I can't remember who the Jose was, but I seem to remember he was
awful, though. (Was it Guy Chauvet?)
William Hobbs
I saw Berganza in the Edinburgh Festival production of Carmen when it
was presented at the Opera Comique - waited in line for six hours to
get a return and even had to deal with a rude box office attendant
(imagine that in Paris!) but it was worth it. Abbado had stepped
down as conductor over the choice of orchestra but we still had
Domingo, Ricciarelli, Raimondi, Barbie, Senechel et al in a good
production.
The staging tried to centre on Jose and the concept was his
flashbacks of events while awaiting execution. Still after almost 20
years it is Berganza I remember - a spoiled child use to flirting
without consequence. This Carmen was not a dark one until things
started going bad... even the Card scene started as a game but I
remember the face and voice darkening as the game proceeded. The
final scene was riviting.. she dared Jose to do something about her
leaving believing he was to much of a coward and she almost got away
with it. I dont recall the voice at any point being either too light
or unsuitable.
I imagine this was the type of Carmen Supervia must have been. Her's
was not a heavy voice and when I stop to think about it neither was
my first Carmen's - Rise Stevens (an Octavian, Hansel, Cherubino as
well as Delila).
Guess it all proves that there is more than one way to sing a role.
Perhaps that is one of the reasons Carmen is a great opera... it can
accomodate many vocal types.
Mike Richter
and VHS.
Peter J. Ullman
Does anyone know of a really "good" reference that would shed light on
what type of voice Bizet had envisioned for his Carmen?
Carmen Z. Catoni
We must not forget the French tradition of the Falcon voice. Since the times of
Meyerbeer, who created his great roles for Marie Cornelie Falcon, most great French
roles are either for very high soprano (Lakme, Philline, Juliette, Dinorah, etc) or for
this ambiguous voice. Anyone willing to take a look at Carmen's score can see that
there are many "Oppure"s (optional lines) with which the singer can adapt the role to
her characteristics. Remember Carmen, Charlotte, Valentine and other great French role
taken by either sopranos or mezzos.
HAPPY LISTENING!!!
Luis A. Catoni
cat...@bellsouth.net
Ho da fare un dramma buffo e non trovo l'argomento.
Mitchell Weitz
Christina West <xi...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>What I would like to see more often is a MICAELA with more tone and volume -
>I don't want Dmitrova or Marton, but someone of the weight of Freni would be
>about right, as in the Norman/Schicoff version - pity I don't care for
>Norman's Carmen....:=)
>
>Christina
Freni had recorded Micaela twice previously, first with Leontyne
Price, Franco Corelli and Robert Merrill, then with Grace Bumbry and
Jon Vickers. Either of those is preferable to the Jessye Norman
recording.
********************
Mitchell Weitz
mwe...@quicklink.com
********************
Stefan
>Mike Richter
>mric...@mindspring.com
>http://mrichter.simplenet.com
>http://www.opera.it/FreeWeb/mrichter
Farrar, yes -- but there is something to be said for the more dramatic
soprano school of the German type -- Barbara Kemp made a fiery final
scene with Pattiera-- or the French -- Ninon Vallin's final duo with
Friant (?) is one of the best on record. And I would have loved to hear
more of Mahler's favourite Carmen Gutheil-Schoder (Olympia - Frau Fluth
over Elektra to Erwartung) than a skimpy Seguedille. Sigrid Arnoldson is
also beguiling in the habanera & air des cartes and probably very close
to early Scandinavian Carmens. Bizet's opera came to Stockholm just two
years after the Paris première and Swedish opera at that time was
extremely true to French concepts which survived provincially here long
after they were dead in Paris.
Stefan J
Stefan
>> Dalila ? Definitely not Bizet. The first Paris Carmen Galli-Mari=E9 was a=
>
>> kind of larger-voiced soubrette, creator of Mignon and also sang Serva
>> padrona, Zerlina, Bohemian Girl & etc She actually complained the final
>> tessitura was still somewhat low. The first recorded Carmen - Destinnova
>> was a Czech spinto - the most famous Aida at Met & Covent Garden. the
>> first Swedish Carmen was a light soubrette, etc. The sultry Carmen is a
>> later innvention. Do your home work. It-s fun.
>> Stefan J
>
>Dear Sir:
>
>What do you mean by "here we go again", and "do your homework"? I =
>
>really do not understand what these statements have to do with voices =
>
>for Carmen?
>
>
>well-known mezzos, i.e. Horne, Ludwig, Meier, Troyanas, etc.
>
>
>intended "his" Carmen to be? I have not been able to find any definite =
>
>references.
>
>And, if it turns out that it's a matter of choice, then I would still =
>
>prefer a "darker" voice because at least IMHO it goes better with the =
>
>role. Of course others may have different opinions.
I don't want to be arrogant and it took me a long time to do my home
work too. But knowing a thing or two about the interpretation history of
a work never diminished my pleasure in listening/seeing them.
Of course we can all have different opinions -- I might like Beethoven's
9th on a synthesizer with bass drum. But authenticity is not just
pedantry -- it is also a good way to get new light on standard
repertory.And new aspects on roles that were routinely done in a certain
way. Galli-Marié obviously had a much lighter voice than most modern
Carmens and many of the first Carmens were sopranos. In the 80ies and
90ies of the last century there was much controversy between the
interpretation of Carmen as a roving butterfly by more soubrette like
singers and Carmen as a doomed femme fatale. In our day there was the
same controversy about Berganza versus more sultry darkish kind of Carmen
voices. And why does a darker voice "go better with the role" ? Question
your own prejudices ? Many interesting things have also been written
about Carmen and other femmes fatales by feminist writers but the
essential thing is that music perhaps should not always be played or sung
by voices/instruments that did not exist at the time of composition.
Who wants the likes of Corelli or Schwarzkopf in Händel these days as in
the 50ies. Or am I being prejudiced too ?
Stefan J
Karen Mercedes
When he began writing the opera, Bizet envisioned a lyric soprano -
actually a particular singer (whose name escapes me at the moment).
However, by the time the score was completed and sung through the first
time, he realised he didn't want that "bright" or "light" a sound, and he
recast the role for a specific _falcon_/mezzo of his acquaintance at the
time (again, the name escapes me).
The role, as I posted separately, is most accurately classified for
_falcon_ - which is a voice type in the French classification system that
doesn't have a direct counterpart in Italy or Germany. It comes closest,
in Italian terms, to a lirica-spinta mezzo soprano with a good top
register (i.e., a high, almost-dramatic mezzo).
The fact that the role has been sung successfully by lyric mezzos -
Troyanos, Rise Stevens, Marilyn Horne - and spinto sopranos - Maria
Callas - as well as some mezzos I think could truly have been accurately
classified as _falcons_ - Conchita Supervia - seems to bear out its proper
classification as a _falcon_ role. The trouble is, outside France, there
are no singers calling themselves _falcons_, so we have to make do with
the next best thing, which is either a spinto soprano with a good bottom
to her voice, or a lyric mezzo with a good "top".
Karen Mercedes
=====
On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Peter J. Ullman wrote:
> Perhaps you could educate us all as to what Bizet had originally
> intended "his" Carmen to be? I have not been able to find any definite
> references.
Karen Mercedes
I believe Carmen is one of those roles that is most correctly classified
by the French term _falcon_, rather than by any of the Italian or German
fachs. To my mind a _falcon_ comes closest to what, in Italian terms, we
might call a high mezzo soprano lirica-spinto. The fact that the role can
be performed equally successfully by spinto sopranos (e.g., Callas, de los
Angeles) and lyric mezzos (Troyanos, Stevens) would seem to bear this out.
Don Jose seems to be pure lyric-to lirico spinto tenor territory. Jan
Peerce didn't do too badly, but Domingo is the quinessential Don Jose, to
my way of thinking - he adds a manliness that is much needed for this
character to keep from seeming entirely like a wimply mama's boy. The
average straigh lyric tenor a la Pavarotti or Fernando de la Mora just
doesn't have the "bottom" in his voice to carry this role off
successfully. IMO, of course.
Karen Mercedes
obl...@nonsense.net
|might call a high mezzo soprano lirica-spinto. The fact that the role can
|be performed equally successfully by spinto sopranos (e.g., Callas, de los
|Angeles) and lyric mezzos (Troyanos, Stevens) would seem to bear this out.
Would you classify Calve as a spinto? I suppose so. She did
everything from Carmen and Santuzza (her most famous roles) to
Marguerite and Ophelie. I wonder whether Calve used Bizet's soprano
alternatives. And then there was Farrar--the most famous Carmen of
her day--whom I'd be tempted to classify as a lyric soprano on the
basis of her recordings. Surely the voice must have sounded weightier
in the theater for her to have succeeded so in the roles she made her
own.
|Peerce didn't do too badly, but Domingo is the quinessential Don Jose, to
|my way of thinking - he adds a manliness that is much needed for this
|character to keep from seeming entirely like a wimply mama's boy. The
Agreed. Jobin may have lacked a little of that bottom, but he
projected Jose's headstrongness brilliantly, which saved him from
wimpiness. If the Jose is too wimpy, the plot simply doesn't work.
His being headstrong is crucial to the story in all four acts. Ramon
Vinay, the first Jose I ever saw, was excellent in the part, too. Oh,
for a taste of Jean de Reszke as Jose...
__
I may respect my employer's opinions,
but I don't have to share them.
E-mail to: bob...@taconic.net
(The header may be altered
to foil autospam software.)
Stefan
Karen Mercedes <merc...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>I believe Carmen is one of those roles that is most correctly classified
>by the French term _falcon_, rather than by any of the Italian or German
>fachs. To my mind a _falcon_ comes closest to what, in Italian terms, we
>be performed equally successfully by spinto sopranos (e.g., Callas, de los
>Angeles) and lyric mezzos (Troyanos, Stevens) would seem to bear this out.
>
>my way of thinking - he adds a manliness that is much needed for this
>character to keep from seeming entirely like a wimply mama's boy. The
>doesn't have the "bottom" in his voice to carry this role off
>successfully. IMO, of course.
>
>Karen Mercedes
>
Cornelie Falcon who created and sang a number of roles in this Fach
falcon would be the equivalent to a French Brünnhilde/Isolde. Typical
Falcon parts are Valentine in Huguenots, Rachel in Juive, Selika in
Africaine all sung by French & other singers who also sang Wagner,
Cassandre in Troyens and now and then a high dramatic mezzosoprano part
like the Queen in Hamlet or Eboli but never the Azucena/Ulrica or the
breechers parts (Siebel,Urbain,Orsini in Lucrezia) which were so popular
with 19th century mezzo/contraltos. If Carmen has a French Fach name it
would be dugazon and the first Carmen Galli-Marié who had a much bigger
personal success than the work itself was also the first Mignon and sang
parts like Arline in The bohemian girl, Serpina in Serva padrona,
Cherubino and Zerlina. I think this makes Berganza the most "authentic"
Carmen in our day -- not to say that people could have immense pleasure
from Martha Mödl or Resnik or Troyanos or de los Angeles, all of them
very different from the original role model.
Stefan J
Karen Mercedes
I realise that what I meant to describe was a _dugazon_ - a high lyric
mezzo. _Falcon_ would appear to be a high spinto mezzo or even a high
dramatic mezzo/dramatic soprano. It would, however, appear to be somewhat=
=20
too low for the highest dramatic soprano roles. I can hear a
_falcon_ doing Chimene in LE CID and Marguerite in LE DAMNATION DE FAUST -
and possibly, if she had the German, Leonore in FIDELIO and Isolde in
TRISTAN. But I can't hear her doing TURANDOT or Elisabeth in TANNHAUSER.
Karen Mercedes
On 5 Dec 1996, Stefan wrote:
> Karen Mercedes <merc...@access.digex.net> wrote:
> >I believe Carmen is one of those roles that is most correctly classified
> >by the French term _falcon_, rather than by any of the Italian or German
> >fachs. To my mind a _falcon_ comes closest to what, in Italian terms, w=
e
> >might call a high mezzo soprano lirica-spinto. The fact that the role c=
an
> >be performed equally successfully by spinto sopranos (e.g., Callas, de l=
os
> >Angeles) and lyric mezzos (Troyanos, Stevens) would seem to bear this ou=
t.
> >
> >Don Jose seems to be pure lyric-to lirico spinto tenor territory. Jan
> >Peerce didn't do too badly, but Domingo is the quinessential Don Jose, t=
o
> >my way of thinking - he adds a manliness that is much needed for this
> >character to keep from seeming entirely like a wimply mama's boy. The
> >average straigh lyric tenor a la Pavarotti or Fernando de la Mora just
> >doesn't have the "bottom" in his voice to carry this role off
> >successfully. IMO, of course.
> >
> >Karen Mercedes
> >
> Sorry but Falcon means something else. Named after dramatic soprano=20
> Cornelie Falcon who created and sang a number of roles in this Fach=20
> falcon would be the equivalent to a French Br=FCnnhilde/Isolde. Typical=
=20
> Falcon parts are Valentine in Huguenots, Rachel in Juive, Selika in=20
> Africaine all sung by French & other singers who also sang Wagner,=20
> Cassandre in Troyens and now and then a high dramatic mezzosoprano part=
=20
> like the Queen in Hamlet or Eboli but never the Azucena/Ulrica or the=20
> breechers parts (Siebel,Urbain,Orsini in Lucrezia) which were so popular=
=20
> with 19th century mezzo/contraltos. If Carmen has a French Fach name it=
=20
> would be dugazon and the first Carmen Galli-Mari=E9 who had a much bigger=
=20
> personal success than the work itself was also the first Mignon and sang=
=20
> parts like Arline in The bohemian girl, Serpina in Serva padrona,=20
> Cherubino and Zerlina. I think this makes Berganza the most "authentic"=
=20
> Carmen in our day -- not to say that people could have immense pleasure=
=20
> from Martha M=F6dl or Resnik or Troyanos or de los Angeles, all of them=
=20
> very different from the original role model.
> Stefan J=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
James G. Jorden
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me it would be easier to
define these voice types by example:
Dugazon: Frederica von Stade, Suzanne Mentzer, Maria Ewing (once upon
a time)
Falcon: Regine Crespin, Jessye Norman. Regina Resnik(?)
jj
Brian Newhouse
In article <58frop$g...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
jjo...@ix.netcom.com(James G. Jorden) wrote:
That's a helpful way of clarifying the mezzo-soprano taxonomy--somehow the
"lyric"/"dramatic" dichotomy seems about as adequate for mezzos as the
"cold-blooded"/"warm-blooded" does for dinosaurs--but how about mezzos in
between with more intensity than the Dugazon, but less weight than the
Falcon (Janet Baker, Tatiana Troyanos, Lorraine Hunt)? Do the French have
a word for it, or shall we have to make one up ourselves? (I suggest
"Baker")
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
James G. Jorden
Brian Newhouse wrote:
>how about mezzos in
>between with more intensity than the Dugazon, but less weight than the
>Falcon (Janet Baker, Tatiana Troyanos, Lorraine Hunt)? Do the French
>have a word for it, or shall we have to make one up ourselves? (I
>suggest "Baker")
OK by me. Except I really think a Falcon is not really a mezzo, though
she has approximately a mezzo range. IMO a Falcon is a soprano with a
short top and a really large middle voice. The test is: a Falcon sounds
fine singing Isolde or Tosca or Aida, though the top may not always
work, especially as she tires. But a mezzo (even though she can often
make it through these roles) is always going to sound wrong (timbre) in
that music, like screaming.
So this is how I see the "taxonomy":
1. "Dugazon" = von Stade, Ewing, Berganza
2. "Baker" = Baker, Hunt, Troyanos, *Waltraud Meier*
3. "Dramatic Mezzo" = Mignon Dunn, Grace Bumbry, Shirley Verrett
A mezzo friend of mine has different terminology. #1 is called a "boy
mezzo" and #3 is called a "cow mezzo".
Don't tell anyone, but I think Dolora Zajick is really a Falcon. I'll
hear her as Santuzza in a few weeks and let you know what I decide!
jj
Karen Mercedes
Maybe we could adopt the term "poussee" (accent over the first "e") - this
would be the French equivalent of "spinto".
Karen Mercedes
=====
On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Brian Newhouse wrote:
> That's a helpful way of clarifying the mezzo-soprano taxonomy--somehow the
> "lyric"/"dramatic" dichotomy seems about as adequate for mezzos as the
> "cold-blooded"/"warm-blooded" does for dinosaurs--but how about mezzos in
Brian Newhouse
In article <58gd1g$q...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
jjo...@ix.netcom.com(James G. Jorden) wrote:
> Brian Newhouse wrote:
>
> >how about mezzos in
> >between with more intensity than the Dugazon, but less weight than the
> >Falcon (Janet Baker, Tatiana Troyanos, Lorraine Hunt)? Do the French
> >have a word for it, or shall we have to make one up ourselves? (I
> >suggest "Baker")
>
> OK by me. Except I really think a Falcon is not really a mezzo, though
> she has approximately a mezzo range. IMO a Falcon is a soprano with a
> short top and a really large middle voice. The test is: a Falcon sounds
> fine singing Isolde or Tosca or Aida, though the top may not always
> work, especially as she tires. But a mezzo (even though she can often
> make it through these roles) is always going to sound wrong (timbre) in
> that music, like screaming.
>
> So this is how I see the "taxonomy":
>
> 1. "Dugazon" = von Stade, Ewing, Berganza
> 2. "Baker" = Baker, Hunt, Troyanos, *Waltraud Meier*
> 3. "Dramatic Mezzo" = Mignon Dunn, Grace Bumbry, Shirley Verrett
>
So then, if we have the series Dugazon--Baker--Dramatic Mezzo, as well as
the traditional series lyric soprano--spinto soprano--dramatic soprano,
then is there an equivalent series xxx--xxx--Falcon? In other words, is
there a generally accepted term for--or even a famous voice
representing--a lighter version of a Falcon, i.e. a soprano with a short
top whose voice is not as large as that of a Falcon? (Kestrel? Peregrine?
<grin>)
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
g.f.
In article <E266y...@nonexistent.com>,
Brian Newhouse <newh...@mail.crisp.net> wrote:
>In article <58gd1g$q...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>jjo...@ix.netcom.com(James G. Jorden) wrote:
>
>>
>> OK by me. Except I really think a Falcon is not really a mezzo, though
>> she has approximately a mezzo range. IMO a Falcon is a soprano with a
>> short top and a really large middle voice. The test is: a Falcon sounds
>> fine singing Isolde or Tosca or Aida, though the top may not always
>> work, especially as she tires. But a mezzo (even though she can often
>> make it through these roles) is always going to sound wrong (timbre) in
>> that music, like screaming.
>>
lists Norman and Crespin. I don't remember exactly the others. And
then another post by the same author I think (both you, Mr. Jorden?)
says they sing Isolde, Tosca, and Aida. Am I wrong in thinking
neither singer sang any of these roles? Well except Jessye in Aida
very early on and excerpts from Isolde? I'm not trying to be
picky here, it's really my own understanding of the distinction
at hand that I'm trying to iron out.
as befogged as before,
Greg
fr...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
James G. Jorden
In <E266y...@nonexistent.com> newh...@mail.crisp.net (Brian
Newhouse) writes:
>> So this is how I see the "taxonomy":
>>
>> 1. "Dugazon" = von Stade, Ewing, Berganza
>> 2. "Baker" = Baker, Hunt, Troyanos, *Waltraud Meier*
>> 3. "Dramatic Mezzo" = Mignon Dunn, Grace Bumbry, Shirley Verrett
>>
>
>So then, if we have the series Dugazon--Baker--Dramatic Mezzo, as well
>as the traditional series lyric soprano--spinto soprano--dramatic
>soprano, then is there an equivalent series xxx--xxx--Falcon? In
>other words, is there a generally accepted term for--or even a famous
>voice representing--a lighter version of a Falcon, i.e. a soprano with
>a short top whose voice is not as large as that of a Falcon?
>(Kestrel? Peregrine?
><grin>)
How about, in rising order of size:
Soubrette/"musical theater voice"
Zwischenfach
Falcon
Each one is rather shorter on top than a true soprano of the same
weight:
the soubrette generally tops out on C or C-sharp (in contrast to a
lyric-coloratura's usually reliable E-flat), but usually with an
interesting color: I think of Elisabeth Schumann or Dawn Upshaw -- or
any number of operetta sopranos.
the Zwischenfach would include most singers who have a real success
doing Oktavian or the Komponist. In Germany they often get talked into
trying dramatic soprano roles, expecially Fidelio. Waltraud Meier is, I
think, a Zwischenfach (I recant what I said earlier about her being a
"Baker": Meier's sound is not rich enough)
Falcon we've talked about before. Do you think Eileen Farrell could be
called a Falcon?
Perhaps the best thing to do is to remember that every voice is unique,
and it's the differences we value more than the similarities.
jj
James G. Jorden
In <58irsf$j...@piglet.cc.utexas.edu> fr...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (g.f.)
writes:
>>>
>Okay so wait a second...one post says define Falcon by example and
>lists Norman and Crespin. I don't remember exactly the others. And
>then another post by the same author I think (both you, Mr. Jorden?)
>says they sing Isolde, Tosca, and Aida. Am I wrong in thinking
>neither singer sang any of these roles? Well except Jessye in Aida
>very early on and excerpts from Isolde? I'm not trying to be
>picky here, it's really my own understanding of the distinction
>at hand that I'm trying to iron out.
What I wrote was:
>>> a Falcon sounds
>>> fine singing Isolde or Tosca or Aida, though the top may not always
>>> work, especially as she tires [etc]
What I meant was that the color of Crespin's and Norman's voices is a
soprano color-- rich, even dark, but not mezzo. (Compare Norman's voice
to Bumbry's and you'll see what I mean). Thus if and when a Falcon
does these roles, she sounds "right" in the bulk of the role, though
perhaps her extreme high notes are not so pleasant to hear.
Crespin was celebrated for her Tosca in the first half of her career.
She was a superb Sieglinde and Leonore in "Fidelio"; she even sang
Brunnhilde onstage and for the Karajan recording. Had not poor health
and emotional problems not further weakened her already imperfect vocal
technique, she almost certainly would have moved on to Isolde. True,
she never sang Aida, perhaps because she was wary of the same exposed
high notes (especially the high C in the Nile aria) that eventually
scared Ponselle and Tebaldi away from this role. But she did succeed as
Desdemona and Amelia in "Ballo", parts that are not so very different
from Aida in their vocal writing. She did record a very beautiful
"Ritorna vincitor".
People have been expecting an Isolde from Jessye Norman for a couple of
decades now; as recently as 5 years ago she probably could have
recorded it successfully. Aida was one of her breakthrough roles back
in the '70s, and I think a Norman Tosca is reasonably plausible vocally
(if not, perhaps, dramatically)
Again, it seems likely that one major reason that the roles I named
were either never attempted or else abandoned by these artists is that
they did not feel secure on the highest exposed notes.
I believe that the actual "Falcon" roles -- that is, the ones written
for Cornelie Falcon herself -- always include lower options for the
extreme high notes. That suggests that Mme. Falcon had a high B-flat
and even a high C-- sometimes. That describes the voices of Mmes.
Norman and Crespin very well indeed.
jj
Stefan
jjo...@ix.netcom.com(James G. Jorden) wrote:
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me it would be easier to
>define these voice types by example:
>
>Dugazon: Frederica von Stade, Suzanne Mentzer, Maria Ewing (once upon
>a time)
>
>Falcon: Regine Crespin, Jessye Norman. Regina Resnik(?)
>
Not that bad. Only Resnik became a rather typical exponent of the fruity
mezzo-contralto Fach.
Perhaps Verrett could qualify for a Falcon -- with Medée,Selika, lady
Macbeth ...?
Stefan J
Stefan
newh...@mail.crisp.net (Brian Newhouse) wrote:
>In article <58frop$g...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>jjo...@ix.netcom.com(James G. Jorden) wrote:
>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me it would be easier to
>> define these voice types by example:
>>
>> Dugazon: Frederica von Stade, Suzanne Mentzer, Maria Ewing (once upon
>> a time)
>>
>> Falcon: Regine Crespin, Jessye Norman. Regina Resnik(?)
>>
>
>"lyric"/"dramatic" dichotomy seems about as adequate for mezzos as the
>between with more intensity than the Dugazon, but less weight than the
>Falcon (Janet Baker, Tatiana Troyanos, Lorraine Hunt)? Do the French have
>a word for it, or shall we have to make one up ourselves? (I suggest
>"Baker")
>
>Brian Newhouse
>newh...@mail.crisp.net
I admired Baker very much as Didon in TROYENS in Edinburgh etc but she
was never a Falcon. She had no real bite in the voice and when she sang
high parts like Maria Stuarda, Alceste,etc she transposed -- which was
entirely to the benefit of all -- sometimes up, sometimes down. She was
a very good singer and a superb artist but she had a weak lower range
and no real thrust in the high register either. Though she sang without
apparent effort in the passaggio in soprano parts like Vitellia in TITO
where she of course ducked the highest notes.
Francoise Pollet obviously tries to sing the Falcon repertory as allso
Crespin did, both Didon and Cassandre, the arias from Reine de Saba,Cid
etc but Pollet's instrument does not really have the flame like quality
that is so important in the great recorded Falcons -- Litvinne, Marjorie
Lawrence,the early recordings of Nina Kozhets belong there too...
Stefan J
>
James G. Jorden
Janet Baker's excellent musicality and strong stage presence allowed
her to cross over into roles that, from a purely *vocal* standpoint,
she should not have been able to succeed in. Everything in life and
art is a tradeoff, and in the case of Baker's Didon, Maria Stuarda,
Orfeo, Giulio Cesare, Vitellia and a number of other roles, most agree
the tradeoff was a good one. She is also a most charming if (vocally)
rather matronly Dorabella. I wonder if she ever considered Donna
Elvira?
IMO, Francoise Pollet is a Falcon, just not a very interesting one. I
agree she has little "flame-like" quality (what a wonderful image! and
so true about, for example, Germaine Lubin!)
Despite her success with higher repertoire, I still think Shirley
Verrett is/was a dramatic mezzo-soprano. The timbre is just *not* that
of a soprano.
jj
Brian Newhouse
In article <58iflu$d...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>,
jjo...@ix.netcom.com(James G. Jorden) wrote:
>
> the Zwischenfach would include most singers who have a real success
> doing Oktavian or the Komponist. In Germany they often get talked into
> trying dramatic soprano roles, expecially Fidelio. Waltraud Meier is, I
> think, a Zwischenfach (I recant what I said earlier about her being a
> "Baker": Meier's sound is not rich enough)
I've noticed that a number of German "dramatic mezzo" roles (Ortrud,
Kundry, Farberin, Geschwitz) actually sound like dramatic soprano roles
that are short on top; in my grad-student days I read a scholarly treatise
on Fach in pre-Wagnerian 19th-century German opera that suggested that the
"dramatic mezzo-soprano" Fach originated, at least for the German
repertory, in the role of Eglantine in _Euryanthe_, which is really a
dramatic soprano role with a bit of coloratura (and sung rather well as
such by Rita Hunter in the 1975 recording--the one with Jessye Norman as
Euryanthe; it has always amused me that opera's quintessential clueless
_echt-deutsche reine Maedchen_, and blonde if there ever was one [OK, I'm
blond, I can say that], should be sung on record so well by a big black
woman).
So could "German dramatic mezzo" = "Zwischenfach"? (Though maybe Kundry
is a full-fledged Falcon)
> Falcon we've talked about before. Do you think Eileen Farrell could be
> called a Falcon?
Why not? But then...what about...do I dare suggest it...Ponselle?
(another dramatic soprano with a real fear of high notes and high pitches
in general)
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
Carmen Z. Catoni
James G. Jorden wrote:
>
> Don't tell anyone, but I think Dolora Zajick is really a Falcon. I'll
> hear her as Santuzza in a few weeks and let you know what I decide!
Verdi. Yet loved her Lieder von Erde here in Miami a few years ago.
Carmen Z. Catoni
James G. Jorden wrote:
>
> I believe that the actual "Falcon" roles -- that is, the ones written
> for Cornelie Falcon herself -- always include lower options for the
> extreme high notes. That suggests that Mme. Falcon had a high B-flat
> and even a high C-- sometimes. That describes the voices of Mmes.
> Norman and Crespin very well indeed.
are the true falcon sound, which my mind fixes in Verrett (don't ask me why, pure
intuition : - ) )
Your statement about the vocal writing for Mme Falcon is true, and it was
perpetuated into tradition. Carmen has many optional lines ("oppure") written for
her.
This very interesting thread makes me reaffirm myself ion my conviction. Why such
obstination in classifying? Traditionally composers wrote with specific artists
in mind, and adapted their lines to the characteristics of the voice, and didn't
vacillate to change them when another artist took over the role. Was Colbran a
soprano or a mezzo? The same could be asked of Pasta, Grisi and Malibran.
I think a singer should sing whatever suits him or her by tessitura and vocal
character. We wouldn't want a light voice for certain roles, even if they had the
notes. And viceversa. We are obsessed to order and classify. It's only natural
But then we have many particular cases and/or exceptions and we don't know what
to do with them. We should open a little bit in one way, but limit in other. We
should consider the existence of the "assolutto". How many times have we seen a
singer "fuori ruolo" (not in the role) because, despite the fact that it may fit
his or her vocal type, the particular voice color or artistic personality is not
adequate. Marilyn Horne certainly had the notes to sing Amneris, Azucena and
Eboli. But we know the results (and she is one of my all time favorites!).
Because of that, would she stop being a contralto? No. A Rossini contralto, but
nevertheless a contralto. despite the fact that she sang the rondo from "La donna
del Lago". Mme. Falcon retired but the tradition of writing optional lines
continued. Maybe because the composers cared more about a character and a color
than a few high or low notes.
Carmen Z. Catoni
James G. Jorden wrote:
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me it would be easier to
> define these voice types by example:
>
> Dugazon: Frederica von Stade, Suzanne Mentzer, Maria Ewing (once upon
> a time)
>
> Falcon: Regine Crespin, Jessye Norman. Regina Resnik(?)
James G. Jorden
Brian Newhouse wrote:
>I've noticed that a number of German "dramatic mezzo" roles (Ortrud,
>Kundry, Farberin, Geschwitz) actually sound like dramatic soprano
>roles that are short on top...
In fact, all these roles except Geschwitz are listed as "soprano" in
the vocal score. The role of Ortrud in fact has many passages that lie
higher than anything Elsa sings. Eva Marton sang both these roles the
same season at the Met about 10 years ago: her Elsa is preserved on
the "Lohengrin" video opposite Peter Hoffman, but her Ortrud was
supposed to be really incredible.
jj
Trat Colins
Carmen Z. Catoni wrote:
>
> James G. Jorden wrote:
> >
> > Don't tell anyone, but I think Dolora Zajick is really a Falcon. I'll
> > hear her as Santuzza in a few weeks and let you know what I decide!
> > To me she has always sounded like a soprano. That's why I don't like her in
> Verdi. Yet loved her Lieder von Erde here in Miami a few years ago.
>
> Luis A. Catoni
> cat...@bellsouth.net
> Ho da fare un dramma buffo e non trovo l'argomento.
If I remember correctly, there was an Opera News interview with Dolora a
few months ago. In it she said she could vocalize up to a soprano high
F or something. I'm not for certain. The point is this, many people
may think she is a soprano because she doesn't have a very dark timbre
or she can sing the high B's and C's easily, but SHE is comfortable
being a mezzo. And I hope she stays in that fach. I know plenty of
baritones and mezzos and many people try to tell these singers that they
are tenors and sopranos respectively. Well, they are not comfortable in
that range. Deciding whether a singer is a soprano or mezzo does not
have all that much to do with timbre and range. It has primarily a lot
to do with where the passaggio area begins in the voice and whether or
not a singer is comfortable singing in a higher or lower tessitura. One
of my baritone friends has a particularly bright and lyrical timbre, and
because of this many teachers and singers have tried to convince him
that he is a tenor. Well, he does not feel comfortable singing in the
tenor range. Right now he is comfortable being a baritone.
The most important factor in determining what fach someone is, is
whether or not the singer himself feels comfortable being in that fach.
If not, then perhaps the singer should switch fachs, and then in time
with development and maturity of the voice the singer will be able to
EASILY switch. So from what I can gather, Dolora feels comfortable
being a mezzo, therefore she should remain a mezzo for the time being.
I absolutely LOVE her Amneris!
Dolora Rules dtritter!
Karen Mercedes
Here's a few things I dug up about Falcons:
Range (typical) = B to c#'''
Typical role: Alice in ROBERT LE DIABLE
Karen Mercedes
Carmen Z. Catoni
Trat Colins wrote:
> > >Dolora Zajick is really a Falcon.
> If I remember correctly, there was an Opera News interview with Dolora a
> few months ago. In it she said she could vocalize up to a soprano high
> F or something. I'm not for certain. The point is this, many people
> may think she is a soprano because she doesn't have a very dark timbre
> or she can sing the high B's and C's easily, but SHE is comfortable
> being a mezzo. And I hope she stays in that fach. I know plenty of
> baritones and mezzos and many people try to tell these singers that they
> are tenors and sopranos respectively. Well, they are not comfortable in
> that range. Deciding whether a singer is a soprano or mezzo does not
> have all that much to do with timbre and range. It has primarily a lot
> to do with where the passaggio area begins in the voice and whether or
> not a singer is comfortable singing in a higher or lower tessitura. One
> of my baritone friends has a particularly bright and lyrical timbre, and
> because of this many teachers and singers have tried to convince him
> that he is a tenor. Well, he does not feel comfortable singing in the
> tenor range. Right now he is comfortable being a baritone.
>
> The most important factor in determining what fach someone is, is
> whether or not the singer himself feels comfortable being in that fach.
> If not, then perhaps the singer should switch fachs, and then in time
> with development and maturity of the voice the singer will be able to
> EASILY switch. So from what I can gather, Dolora feels comfortable
> being a mezzo, therefore she should remain a mezzo for the time being.
>
> I absolutely LOVE her Amneris!
I basically agree. It's the physiology of the voice that determines the
repertoire (Every day I more refuse to "classify" voices; they are so odd!) Yet
sometimes this physiology is confusing even for the singer him/herself. I
remember having interviewed Marilyn Horne, who began her career as a soprano.
She was not uncomfortable (according to herself) but she found her voice getting
a thin quality that she though was not hers. She sang Marie in Wozzeck, Tatiana
and Musetta, among other roles. She doesn'ty at sound like her (as we know her)
when she dubbed Carmen Jones. And I have a friend, now making an international
career, who began as a soprano. She was oriented to the spinto repertoire. Gino
Becchi suggested her the brilliant lyric bel canto repertoire. She tried it and
IMHO it worked very well. But she was afraid of the high C. A then artistic
agent and later artistic director of a theater suggested her the lyric mezzo
roles, (Rossini and Mozart). With those she has gone around the worls. IMHO she
still soundas like a soprano, but she sings with such class and taste that she
can sing whatever she wants.
James Hampton
I think that Carmen should be sung by a Mezzo - Has anyone (besides me)
had the distinct pleasure of hearing Denyce Graves sing the role. I sang
with the Washington Opera when she did Carmen there a few years back -
before her Met debut in the role - she is incredible. A dark, lush, voice
and a very fiery actress. If you have the chance - hear her.
--
James Hampton
Opera Singer / Graduate Student
"Opera is alot like real life, only louder"
Tina
I agree that Carmen should always be sung by a mezzo. It was written
to show off a lush middle voice.I have seen many a soprano die on the
card aria because of the tricky place it lies in the voice. I have
seen Denyce sing Damnation of Faust and it was FABULOUS!!!!!!!!
On 19 Dec 96 16:22:02 GMT, the_...@skantech.com (James Hampton)
wrote:
Karen Mercedes
But what would you say to a soprano who has a lush middle voice singing
the role. For example, have you heard Leontyne Price's rendition? Or
Callas's recordings of the Habanera and Seguedille? To be honest, I think
both these women capture Carmen's lushness a lot better than Jennifer
Larmore or Marilyn Horne (who essentially belted her way through the role
with all the subtlety of Ethel Merman).
Karen Mercedes
=====
John Lynch
Karen Mercedes wrote:
>
> But what would you say to a soprano who has a lush middle voice singing
> the role.
I don't know that it takes a lush middle voice so much as a French
voice. Just the other day I listened to a Paris Opera-Comique recording
from 1950 with Solange Michel in the title role (Raoul Jobin as Don
Jose, Martha Angelici as Micaela, Michel Dens as Escamillo, conducted by
Andre Cluytens). It worked beautifully.
And in the late 70s Regine Crespin, a soprano, sang it at the Met
opposite William Lewis as Don J. (The rest of the cast escapes me.)
The point being that French voices do better with French texts than
others.
John Lynch
Trat Colins
So we should disregard all performances of French opera unless they are
performed by French singers? What about Italian and German operas? And
just because someone is French, that means that they automatically are
able to perform French opera than someone who is not French?
Come on, surely you don't mean this? :)
--
Trat Colins, President and CEO of Opera-Holics Anonymous
http://stairway.org/bjorling
bjoe...@worldnet.att.net
Jussi Rules!!!
J. Miller
Trat Colins <bjoe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<32C9F3...@worldnet.att.net>...
> John Lynch wrote:
> >
> > The point being that French voices do better with French texts than
> > others.
> >
> > John Lynch
>
> So we should disregard all performances of French opera unless they are
> performed by French singers? What about Italian and German operas? And
> just because someone is French, that means that they automatically are
> able to perform French opera than someone who is not French?
>
> Come on, surely you don't mean this? :)
Come on , Trat, surely you don't mean *that*! Of course, French singers
sing better French, German singers sing better German, Italian
singers...Spanish singers... and I don't know what American singers are
best at ;) I think it takes a native to know if their language is being
represented correctly. Many of us have heard (whether or not they'll admit
it) a certain Italian or Spanish or Cathtillian singer try to sing in
English. Do you really think that an American singing in French is not
going to sound American to a French person? I asked my German
sister-in-law (another opera fan) about this once, and she said that she
can *definitely* tell when the singer is not German, and it isn't usually
very pretty. So, yes, *except* for those few who are linguistically
gifted, I'd say a native singer is always going to sound more authentic and
therefore better.
My $.02,
JM
James G. Jorden
>John Lynch wrote:
>
>And in the late 70s Regine Crespin, a soprano, sang it at the Met
>opposite William Lewis as Don J. (The rest of the cast escapes me.)
And Crespin was superb, absolutely spoiling the role for me-- I can't imagine anyone else being so
feminine, so mysterious, so witty, and so very honest.
Though I heard Crespin with Gilbert Py and I think maybe Adriana Maliponte) for at least a few
performances in 1975, the cast was: Crespin, Ricciarelli, Domingo, Van Dam.
Where's a time machine when you need one?
james
John Lynch
Thanks, Janice. I had just written "Surely you don't mean this" and
decided to give the boy time to reconsider before replying.
Happy New Year.
John Lynch
Trat Colins
I have reconsidered, and I stand on the same opinion. If that is the
case then we should completely forget about Jussi, Tucker, Warren,
Merrill, Gedda, Domingo, Carreras, Alva, Callas, and many other
singers. Because all these singers, for the most part, sing or have
sung roles that are not in their native tongue.
Any person that is intelligent and spends time in say Italy for a while,
can pick up the language and speak like a native. I know many people
that are not native Italian speakers, but speak Italian beautifully
enough that native Italians compliment them on it. I think its kind of
silly to dismiss singers on this basis. In fact, I've heard singers
that are non-Italian sing Italian opera better than the Italians.
--
Trat Colins, Youngstown, Ohio
HenryFogel
Trat Colins <bjoe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<32C9F3...@worldnet.att.net>...
> John Lynch wrote:
> >
> > The point being that French voices do better with French texts than
> > others.
> >
> > John Lynch
>
> So we should disregard all performances of French opera unless they are
> performed by French singers? What about Italian and German operas? And
> just because someone is French, that means that they automatically are
> able to perform French opera than someone who is not French?
>
> Come on, surely you don't mean this? :)
Trat, your reaction to John's posting seems excessive. I think Callas is
the greatest Violetta. Does that mean I disregard all other Violettas? Of
course not. Different singers have different perspectives to add, and
stating that voices singing in their native language offer an advantage
over non-natives does not mean that we should "disregard" all others.
John's comment has a great deal of validity for a few reasons. One is
simply natural feel for the language. I've almost heard a non-Italian
deal with the crisp recitatives of Italian opera buffa the way an Italian
does. And indeed French singers have a sense of the French language and
style that one doesn't hear in non-French singers. Besides language
itself, the musical line of composers is shaped by the language in which
they're writing -- even the non-vocal music of composers is shaped by
their native language, because those words are the major sounds they've
heard since infancy (a German could not have written Faust or Rigoletto,
and an Italian could not have written Tristan). When a singer is singing
an opera from his native country there is a whole musical and stylistic
identification that is valuable, and is lost when a singer is singing in a
language foreign to him. That does not mean, however, that the "foreign"
singer has nothing to offer and should be ignored, and it does not mean
that the "foreign" singer might not have a superior voice and sense of
character -- it just means that there is an important element missing.
Henry Fogel
Trat Colins
I agree. Perhaps, I am just being a little "over-protective" of foreign
singers since I am an American and as a singer I'll be singing primarily
the Italian repertoire. But I believe that with good training and
coaching and spending time in that particular country, the singer can
"overcome" these handicaps if you will. Many people have criticized
Jussi's diction, and while his diction isn't perfect, it is very good.
AND, he has the Italian style down beautifully. Often when people speak
of Italian-"ate" tenors, Jussi overwhelmingly is mentioned very often.
Of course, I am biased since Jussi is my favorite. :)
Trat Colins
With an addendum to this, but this type of thinking does remind me of
the mentality that opera goers had for years in this country. Which was
that if you weren't from Europe, you weren't any good. And of course
that is why many singers, even to this day, change their names to a
foreign name of such. And unfortunately, we probably missed out on a
number of talented singers. Actually, it's a wonder people like Tucker,
Peerce, Warren, Merrill, and Hines got any recognition. And in my
opinion, the US has a sess pool of talent. And luckily we as
opera-goers are finally realizing this. :)
Happy and blessed New Year all!
Mike Richter
J. Miller wrote:
> Come on , Trat, surely you don't mean *that*! Of course, French singers
> sing better French, German singers sing better German, Italian
> singers...Spanish singers
Oh, what a note on which to start the New Year!
Please note that most of the great French tenors of the past several
decades were not French: Simoneau, Gedda, Kraus - from Canada, Sweden
and the Canary Islands. Of course, Simoneau's French was native (I
believe his English was as well), but I have never heard any of them
described as singing the language poorly. Each sings (or sang) in other
languages without criticism, Gedda perhaps in more than most others.
(Swedish, Italian, German and Russian were all impeccable according to
experts; his English was nearly flawless as well, though there are fewer
instances on record.) Other voice categories seem to have a greater
number of native French speakers excelling in Massenet, Gounod, etc.,
but there have been few fine French tenors since Thill and many fine
roles filled capably by others.
It should also be noted that many singers do not do well with their
native tongues on the stage. There is truth to the general statement
that one who has learned to sing in a particular language tends to use
it better on stage than one who has learned in another, but there are
exceptions there as well.
--
Mike Richter
mric...@mindspring.com
http://mrichter.simplenet.com
http://www.opera.it/FreeWeb/mrichter
J. Miller
Trat & Group,
I see you have not responded to *my* post, was that because it was so off
base that it didn't deserve an answer, or was it so definitive that you
couldn't criticize it? ;) I beg you to re-reconsider your argument.
> I have reconsidered, and I stand on the same opinion. If that is the
> case then we should completely forget about Jussi, Tucker, Warren,
> Merrill, Gedda, Domingo, Carreras, Alva, Callas, and many other
> singers. Because all these singers, for the most part, sing or have
> sung roles that are not in their native tongue.
I think you may have mentioned that you were able to spend some time in
Italy. I don't know whether or not you're referring to yourself here, but
this seems overly simplistic:
> Any person that is intelligent and spends time in say Italy for a while,
> can pick up the language and speak like a native. I know many people
> that are not native Italian speakers, but speak Italian beautifully
> enough that native Italians compliment them on it.
Being complimented on one's ability to speak a foreign language does not
imply that one speaks like a native. In fact, frequently it has more to do
with an extensive vocabulary than anything else. As a very broad rule,
Americans are not gifted in languages (low priority in our schools plus a
general "Everyone should speak English" attitude IMO). No, of course this
does not mean that they shouldn't sing in any other language! But it
*does* mean, that a native will usually do a more convincing job of it.
Certainly that simple statement you can accept? Also, I don't mean to
imply that you as an American can't sing Italian convincingly. There are
many exceptions to my rule and I'm sure you're one of them :)
>I think its kind of silly to dismiss singers on this basis.
So do I, but then, you're the only one who has said that...
>In fact, I've heard singers that are non-Italian sing Italian opera better
than the Italians.
Perhaps, but the idea is...would an Italian agree with you?
Best wishes,
Janice
Daniel F. Tritter
Trat Colins wrote:
> With an addendum to this, but this type of thinking does remind me of
> the mentality that opera goers had for years in this country. Which was> that if you weren't from Europe, you weren't any good. And of
course> that is why many singers, even to this day, change their names to
a > foreign name of such. And unfortunately, we probably missed out on a
> number of talented singers. Actually, it's a wonder people like Tucker, > Peerce, Warren, Merrill, and Hines got any recognition. And in
my > opinion, the US has a sess pool of talent. And luckily we as
> opera-goers are finally realizing this. :)
Lillian Nordica anyone? Albani? Whitehill? Geraldine Farrar? Louise
Homer? Lawrence Tibbett? John Charles Thomas? Richard Crooks? Grace
Moore? Charles Kullman? Rise Stevens? Astrid Varnay? and on and on.
And World War II as depriving us of a lot of European singers?
That mythology of Americans having no chance is just that: mythology.
Sometimes you had to get a European reputation first, but at least as
many got all their training AND experience here. The difference often was
simply who was smart enough, vain enough and affluent enough [ask
America's sweetheart, the divine Bubbles] to hire a first-class press
agent.
As to linguistic talent, there are singers who can never lose their
native twang, or burr, or whatever regional afflictions they bear. The
greatest French I ever heard in opera and song was sung by a Swede with a
Russian father [Gedda] and a Spanish soprano [de los Angeles]. That
Regine Crespin was supreme in whatever she did was not because she was a
Frenchwonman with Italian forbears. It was because she was a great artist
who sang not only superb French, but also superb German, superb Italian
and, yes, superb English [if you can find a pirate of her Met
"Carmelites" performances in English ... though she created Mme. Lidoine
in French ... listen and see what I mean] ...
I've heard a lot of American singers who cannot pronounce their native
tongue correctly, or even intelligibly. Aren't singers supposed to have
good ears and nimble tongues?
dft
Trat Colins
Yes, they have. My one Italian friend and my Italian coach both say
that Domingo's Italian is better than Pav's. My point exactly. It can
and has been done.
John Lynch
Daniel Tritter mentioned Nicolai Gedda as singing the greatest French
he'd ever heard. I've been thinking of Gedda and his Swedish-Russian
heritage off an on all day. Some years back the Met broadcast Eugene
Onegin with a largely American cast. They labored their way through the
Russian, overpronouncing everything. When Gedda came on as Lensky it
was almost as though the cast was singing a different language.
John Lynch
Carmen Z. Catoni
Trat Colins wrote:
>
> John Lynch wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, Janice. I had just written "Surely you don't mean this" and
> > decided to give the boy time to reconsider before replying.
> >
> > Happy New Year.
> >
> > John Lynch
>
> case then we should completely forget about Jussi, Tucker, Warren,
> Merrill, Gedda, Domingo, Carreras, Alva, Callas, and many other
> singers. Because all these singers, for the most part, sing or have
> sung roles that are not in their native tongue.
>
> can pick up the language and speak like a native. I know many people
> that are not native Italian speakers, but speak Italian beautifully
> silly to dismiss singers on this basis. In fact, I've heard singers
> that are non-Italian sing Italian opera better than the Italians.
his position that a native (unless as said before, the artists is gifted for
languages and tongues) will always have an idiomatic flavor the alien won't
have. Unless, of course, the singer has spent very long periods of time (and I
mean years) in the country.
The thing is that we value many things together with pronunciation (had
Sutherland had a career otherwise? : - )). Of the list posted by Trat, there are
about halh with whose diction I'm comfortable with, half with whom I am not,
atleasdt in Italian. But surely Tucker, Warren and Gedda have very audible
accents. This applies to any repertoire, not only Italian French or German.
You guys out there must here how Falla's Seven Popular Songs are so very often
massacred by many famous divas! Not a word is frequently recognizable.
Of course, we notice in languages we know. I wouldn't dare post on German
diction as Ich sprache kleine Deustch!
On the other hand, most languages have different accents and in some cases what
is considered orthodox or standard may not be adequate for a certain work.
I suppose it must happen to Viennese operetta, as it does happen with zarzuela.
It sounds su funny to listen to a Latin American singer dealing with text that
has such a Madrilean flavor and thus require a Madrilean accent, so different
from the one in Barcelona, Sevilla, Mexico City or Buenos aires, to name but a
few.
Musipro
"J. Miller" <mill...@usit.net> wrote:
>[snip] Of course, French singers
>sing better French, German singers sing better German, Italian
>singers...Spanish singers... and I don't know what American singers are
>best at ;) I think it takes a native to know if their language is being
>represented correctly. [snip]*except* for those few who are
>linguistically gifted, I'd say a native singer is always going to sound
>more authentic and therefore better.
A bit of oversimplifying going on here, IMO, to wit:
1) Being able to pronounce a language correctly is not necessarily the
same as mastering a particular national style of performance. Seasoned
observers of opera in the jet-age frequently talk about the decline of
national styles, particularly with regard to French opera, but I think
they mean a particular musico/dramatic aesthetic having to do, to some
degree, with a certain sensitivity to textual declamation and nuance and
less emphasis on purely vocal virtuosity. The "homogenization" of operatic
style of the present day is due to the breaking down of national musical
traditions as a result of more demand for fewer great singers, the speed
and convenience of jet travel, etc.-it's not *just* about more singers
singing in non-native tongues, although of course this is an important
part of the phenomenon.
Along these lines, it may be noted that many great interpreters of
particular areas of the operatic repertoire were not native, or at least
primary, speakers of the languages involved: Teresa Stolz and Rosa
Ponselle in Verdi, Callas in Italian opera, Mary Garden in French opera,
Flagstad and Nilsson in Wagner. Which observation leads me to my second
point:
2) Being able to pronounce a language correctly is not necessarily the
same as singing beautifully. Opera is a vocal, not a linguistic art. Truly
great singing will always be at a premium, no matter what the native
language of the fortunate singer.
Having said all this, I will add that I have been struck repeatedly in
song recitals, where textual nuance is much more significant than in
opera, how much more communicative and relaxed performers are when singing
in their native language. One of my most treasured musical memories is
that of Dame Janet Baker singing an English folk song unaccompanied as a
final encore--a perfect end to a perfect evening.
Brudearg
Trat Colins wrote:
>My one Italian friend and my Italian coach both say
>that Domingo's Italian is better than Pav's. My point exactly. It can
>and has been done.
My Goodness, Mercy Me, if *I* had said that (and I know it to be true)
how the Trat would have roasted me over the coals in the auto da fe scene.
I did ask him once about those awful wide-mouthed A sounds issuing from LP
and he told me (I think it was Trat, maybe not) that those sounds were
part of LP's technique. But then he and others continually harp on LP's
"perfect diction" ... which they've said means that you can understand
every word.
But, if I'm not mistaken (and I remember this from my days studying
Italian) that there is a kind of *legato* that is obligatory in speaking
Italian and presumably it is even more important in singing in Italian.
So perhaps "perfect diction" is not what is optimal in singing Italian
arias, songs, etc. The tying of the words together in phrases is what is
required. And I stick by my claim that Domingo's treatment of the
language is more beautiful than LP's, at least just by the nature of his
pronunciation. And along with that goes the legato line .... which
contributes an awful lot to phrasing.
BTW, I'll have to check with my MANY Italian friends about which singer
pronounces Italian properly and with the proper legato.
tom_hamilton
In article , Trat says...
>
>Trat Colins wrote:
>>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Big snip~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
. Actually, it's a wonder people like Tucker,
>Peerce, Warren, Merrill, and Hines got any recognition. And in my
>opinion, the US has a sess pool of talent. And luckily we as
>opera-goers are finally realizing this. :)
>
>Happy and blessed New Year all!
>
>--
>Trat Colins, Youngstown, Ohio
>http://stairway.org/bjorling
>bjoe...@worldnet.att.net
>Jussi Rules!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a suggestion young man. Not a flame.
You might check your use of sess pool??
Cesspool - an underground catch basin for household sewage or
other liquid waste.
This particular thread is most enjoyable and I wish I had more time.
Tom Hamilton
Trat Colins
Actually, I thought I was using that wrong anyway. At the moment I
couldn't think of anything else to use. :)
Oh, and just to clear up any misunderstandings, I did not mean to imply
that those singers I mentioned are not talented or great artists. I
just meant that I was surprised they were stars considering they are
American.
Trat Colins
Gedda is probably one of the greatest singers that was able to sing in
probably any language and sound like a native. I think what requires
one to be able to do this is an astute ear, even more astute than the
musical ear required. But of course, it just shows more of why Gedda is
the superb artist that he is.
Trat Colins
I agree completely with you Musipro. Although, from my own experience,
I'd much rather sing in Italian than any other language. For the simple
fact that the English language is too consonant oriented, much like
German. And I don't think English goes well with music as Italian
does. Just my opinion, though. :)
Mark Starr
I once attended a performance of "Boheme" in Amsterdam in the company of
the Italian conductor Franco Ferrara. Ferrara, it must be noted, spoke
only Italian.
In this performance, almost all of the leads (with one exception) had
been imported from Italy. While none of the Italian singers was a
celebrated name, they all had credits in the program that included La
Scala, Rome Opera House, Arena di Verona, La Fenice, etc. The one
exception was a young Dutch basso who sang the role of Colline, the
philosopher, making his debut.
Near the end of the first Act, Ferrara leaned over and whispered to me:
"Non ho capito proprio una parola!" ("I have not understood even one
word.") A few moments later, he leaned over again and added: "Pero, il
Colline parla bene." ("However, the Colline speaks clearly.")
Regards,
Mark Starr
Iain Davidson
>Come on , Trat, surely you don't mean *that*! Of course, French singers
>sing better French, German singers sing better German, Italian
>singers...Spanish singers... and I don't know what American singers are
>best at ;) I think it takes a native to know if their language is being
>represented correctly. Many of us have heard (whether or not they'll admit
>it) a certain Italian or Spanish or Cathtillian singer try to sing in
>English. Do you really think that an American singing in French is not
>going to sound American to a French person? I asked my German
>sister-in-law (another opera fan) about this once, and she said that she
>can *definitely* tell when the singer is not German, and it isn't usually
>very pretty. So, yes, *except* for those few who are linguistically
>gifted, I'd say a native singer is always going to sound more authentic and
>therefore better.
I would certainly agree that the native speaker knows best about
his or her own language and only those who have been brought up
multi-lingually can move undetected between different languages.
But there are many dialects in any language and a wide range of
individual variations. If you go down the road of saying that
libretti can only be sung by native speakers, then their dialects
had better be acceptable too. More facetiously, where would we find
all the "native speakers" for Latin masses etc.? Would you insist
that "Kyrie eleison" would have to be sung with a German accent for
German audiences ?
If you take the example of a lecturer or orator, surely it's better
to have an interesting speech delivered by someone with a foreign
accent rather than a dull one by a native speaker.
Accent is surely just one aspect of a vocal performance.
Iain
Iain Davidson Tel : +44 1228 49944
4 Carliol Close Fax : +44 1228 810183
Carlisle Email : ia...@stt.win-uk.net
England
CA1 2QP
Mike Richter
Iain Davidson wrote:
>
> I would certainly agree that the native speaker knows best about
> his or her own language and only those who have been brought up
> multi-lingually can move undetected between different languages.
I believe we are caught in a vast oversimplification here. The Milanese
do not speak Tuscan, nor the Venetians, nor ... So Italian opera is not
sung in the same 'language' as is heard on most streets of Italy. For a
reference more familiar to many in this group, is there any reason to
believe that a Mississippian, a down-Easter from Maine or a Kiwi would
be more capable of singing and inflecting Tippett well than a German or
Italian? It might well be *less* likely, since dialects are notoriously
hard to lose.
I met a friend of a friend for the first time this weekend and tried to
place him by his accent in American English. I came quite close: Dutch
with training in a British university, but misguessed his time in the
U.S. by many years. I can speak Bostonian, middle-Western and Southern
American, but only because I lived in each area for extended periods and
have trained my ear to those dialects.
Ciro Fernandes D'Araujo
Karen Mercedes wrote:
>
> But what would you say to a soprano who has a lush middle voice singing
> Callas's recordings of the Habanera and Seguedille? To be honest, I think
> both these women capture Carmen's lushness a lot better than Jennifer
> Larmore or Marilyn Horne (who essentially belted her way through the role
> with all the subtlety of Ethel Merman).
I don't know about you, but I think this role is a voice-breaker for a
soprano singer. Callas did quite nicely on it but it is usually a
voice-breaker and Callas is NOT an usual soprano and she did not have all
the weight necessary to sing it. I agree that some sopranos like Jessye
Norman do have the weight (and she calls herself soprano, but I believe
she is a mezzo), but Mezzo soprani are always best, as a rule, to the
role. See for example Grace Bumbry.
Ciro D'Araujo
Jonathan Sydenham
I'm glad you have MANY Italian friends ... :-)
Jonathan
Brudearg <brud...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970101225...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Mark Starr
Did you know that Leonard Bernstein SANG the role of Carmen at the age
of 14? If you think I am making this up, read Joan Peyser's biography
of Bernstein (however distasteful that may be for other reasons.) His
girlfriend at the time sang the role of Don Jose. They both had an
enormous success among the audience of friends and family. Ever since,
the question of Carmen: Soprano or Mezzo? has become moot.
Moreover, I have seen a silent home movie made by Stephen Sondheim of
Bernstein and his wife Felicia performing the roles of Scarpia and
Tosca. Here Bernstein played Scarpia dressed in a Bela Lugosi cape, and
he wrote out Tosca's note of free passage with a typewriter.
Regards,
Mark Starr
James Jorden
Mark Starr wrote:
>
> Did you know that Leonard Bernstein SANG the role of Carmen at the age
> of 14? If you think I am making this up, read Joan Peyser's biography
> of Bernstein (however distasteful that may be for other reasons.) His
> girlfriend at the time sang the role of Don Jose.
> Bernstein and his wife Felicia performing the roles of Scarpia and
> Tosca. Here Bernstein played Scarpia dressed in a Bela Lugosi cape, and
> he wrote out Tosca's note of free passage with a typewriter.
And to think anyone ever *doubted* that Leonard Bernstein was gay!
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre
"Without Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals, there is no theater."
-- Mel Brooks in "To Be or Not to Be"
Karen Mercedes
I think you're making a broad generalisation here. I happen to know
several Spanish and Mexican people who speak virtually accentless American
English, and a lot of Germans and French who learned their English in
Britain, and sound as British as Margaret Thatcher. I also know that I've
had numerous Spaniards tell me they didn't know I was an American until I
told them I was. They all assumed I was from Spain - Castille, to be
exact, from my perfect Castillian accent. I've also been told by Italians
that my Italian is virtually accentless. Now if I could only get my
French that way!
Karen Mercedes
John Lynch
Yes, but have you tried to make an international career singing operas
in those languages? Sure, there are people who can sing in languages not
their own. We've already mentioned Gedda. I have mentioned Regine
Crespin in Dialogues of the Carmelites--she was the only one in an
otherwise American cast who was intelligible. On the other side of the
coin was Cornell MacNeil, whose Italian was so American accented that it
distracted from his good voice (Cray-doh in un dee-oo crooday-lay.)
Also, it has been my experience that foreigners don't compliment you on
how well you speak their language until you make your first mistake and
reveal yourself as not one of them. I got my comeuppance in Munich when
one of the Bauers at a Stammtisch in the Hofbrauhaus said of me,
"Er spricht bald gut deutsch." Perhaps he meant that I didn't speak
Bayerisch, but I suspect not.
John Lynch
Carmen Z. Catoni
Jonathan Sydenham wrote:
>
> I'm glad you have MANY Italian friends ... :-)
> Jonathan
> > BTW, I'll have to check with my MANY Italian friends about which singer
> > pronounces Italian properly and with the proper legato.
Sorry. I can't resist this.
I am surprised he/she has any friends at all.
Brudearg
Subject: Re: Nationality counts
From: "Carmen Z. Catoni" <cat...@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 16:04:29 -0800
Message-ID: <32CD9E...@bellsouth.net>
Hey, you mean just because I think Pavarotti is a lousy singer and has an
ugly voice and is a product of paid-for public relations, I couldn't
possibly have any friends?
Aren't you two, Jonathan and Luis, just a little bit narrow-minded? And
don't call ME narrow-minded because I happen to not agree with you ...
BTW, I apologized to Trat when I found out he was only 19 years of age.
At that time of life, there's still room for change.
>>Jonathan Sydenham wrote:
>> I'm glad you have MANY Italian friends ... :-)
>>Jonathan
>brudearg said:
>>BTW, I'll have to check with my MANY Italian friends about which singer
>>pronounces Italian properly and with the proper legato.
>>Sorry. I can't resist this.
>>I am surprised he/she has any friends at all.
>>Luis A. Catoni
Carmen Z. Catoni
Brudearg wrote:
> BTW, I apologized to Trat when I found out he was only 19 years of age.
> At that time of life, there's still room for change.
Carmen Z. Catoni
.
Brudearg
I heard that Frank Sinatra has been nominated for a Grammy for a "duet" he
did with Luciano Pavarotti ??
It's beyond comprehension .....I can hardly wait for the video !!!!