Björling No. 1
Lars Henriksson
expressing a personal opinion, which I think, though, is shared by a huge
amount of people: Jussi Björling is the greatest tenor of the century, if
indeed anyone deserves that title. In my opinion, Domingo is number two,
although I know that that opínion is more controversial.
Who can match Björling?
Lars Henriksson
JDavis6627
>
>No one, plain and simple.
Does that mean that someone who's very fancy can?
Jon Davis
For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
Michael Black
> Who can match Björling?
No one, plain and simple.
--
Michael Black
http://www.michaelblack.com
"What comes up, must come down."
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Thu, Apr 22, 1999 16:52 EDT
>Message-id: <01be8d01$fd1ef220$5f3cf482@preinstalledcom>
While I respect the opinion, I do not sharee it.
My feeling is that there is no "Numero Uno". That is because there is a much
wider repertory than a tenor -- even so great as Björling can encompass.
There is, for example, Mozart, where I would prefer Cesare Valletti. In
Wagner, I would suggest Lauritz Melchior. In Russian roles, there is Ivan
Kozlovsky. In Berlioz, Nicolai Gedda. In Czech roles, Peter Dvorsky. In many
French roles, César Vezzani or Alain Vanzo or Georges Thill.
So why make assertions that only serve to invite flames of discord?
Even if there were a "greatest", does that mean we should listen to no other?
Hey I like Godiva chocolates -- but Hershey's and Nestle's are fine, too.
Now when it comes to basketball players, well, there's only one Michael Jordan.
All the best,
==G/P Dave
MA-J Burdett
it
not for his untimely death, might have challenged. To Bjoerling lovers, I
suggest
a CD of Tosti arias by William Matteuzzi. The purity of timbre is similar
to the young
Bjoerling.
GRNDPADAVE > >Date: Thu, Apr 22, 1999 16:52 EDT
Michael Black
> >> Who can match Björling?
> >
> >No one, plain and simple.
>
> Does that mean that someone who's very fancy can?
Only if they can dress well.
Benjamin Maso
GRNDPADAVE wrote in message
>My feeling is that there is no "Numero Uno". That is because there is a
much
>wider repertory than a tenor -- even so great as Björling can encompass.
>
>There is, for example, Mozart, where I would prefer Cesare Valletti. In
>Wagner, I would suggest Lauritz Melchior. In Russian roles, there is Ivan
>Kozlovsky. In Berlioz, Nicolai Gedda. In Czech roles, Peter Dvorsky. In
many
>French roles, César Vezzani or Alain Vanzo or Georges Thill.
It's not only that claims as "the greatest singer" ever don't take account
of the enormous variety of roles and repertoire, it doesn't take account
either of the fact that widely different standard to judge a singer.
For instance, someone who's giving priority to top notes and volume will
never consider Tito Schipa, Fernando de Lucia or even Carlo Bergonzi to be
among the greatest tenors; but these are the very singers who will probably
among the favorites of someone who's mainly interested in acting with the
voice or variety of tonal colors. For someone who is mainly interested in
technique Hermann Jadlowker might be numer one; someone who cares primarly
for the beauty of the voice Jadlowker will be anathema, etc., etc. Only a
singer who is number one in all those fields can really be considered to be
the greatest tenor of the century. But there isn't one and there never will
be. Therefore there are too many qualities which can make a good singer;
qualities which not only are different but to a certain extent even
incompatible.
Benjo Maso
TomKauf2
would certainly prefer Gigli to Bjoerling in many of them, Piccaluga in the
more dramatic repertory. Lauri-Volpi in some, and Pavarotti in others. Del
Monaco and, Corelli, Carreras, and Tucker should also be remembered, and can
give Bjoerling plenty of competition. But, I do concur that Bjoerling is one of
the more important tenors of the century, and, while he is not a personal
favorite, has done some wonderful work.
Cheers
Tom
TomKauf2
Schipa, De Lucia, and Bergonzi--none of whom are among my favorites.
Even more so, when he says
:>For someone who is mainly interested in
>technique Hermann Jadlowker might be numer one; someone who cares primarly
>for the beauty of the voice Jadlowker will be anathema, etc.,
But here we have a strange phenomenon: Both Jadlowker (and Chris Merritt) are
great favorites of mine because I value their technique, while their relative
lack of vocal beauty does not bother me at all. Bu, by the same token, tenors
with great vocal beauty--such as Carreras, Pavarotti, Gigli, Lauri-Volpi are
also great favorites. It all depends on the demands of the role. For Enzo
Grimaldo, I value vocal beauty and passion. For Pirro or Antenore, it is
technique. For Arnold or Manrico, it is vocal power and a big top. For Otello
or Des Grieux (Puccini) it is extreme dramatic involvement, as is demonstrated
by Piccaluga.
Cheers
Tom
Wotan99
>Jordan.
>
>All the best,
>==G/P Dave
>
>
-as the inscription says-"best there ever was, the best there ever will be" I
paraphrase
The logicians may have a problem with the second part, but we can agree on the
first half
not another basketball/opera fan?
W99
Blockflote
would do it like this.
On the first phrase of "Il mio tesoro" --Bjorling would be number one
However, from pick-up to measure 24 to measure 29, it would have to be Luigi
Alva.
But, Alva pronunced "cercate di asciugar" as "cercate dasciugar" so Alva would
not be number on the pronunciation of that particular phrase, which comes back
several time in the course of the aria. Although, Alva did m.43 to m.48 all in
one breath, i have not heard any other tenors done this, so Alva would have to
be number one on those 6 measures. Bjorling, Wunderlich both had to take
serveral catch-breathes during those measure so they are NOT number one.
as you might have noted, this is only one out of many arias out there. Let's
just be happy with our own tenor.....But if you want to get technical..be
prepared to back up your claim.
Blockflote..
give me another beer!!!
drak...@aol.com
never cared very much for Bjoerling although I recognize the beautiful voice
and superb technique. I find Jussi's voice thin and trembling. But speaking
more generally, we would have to compare JB to other lyric tenors; no point
in comparing him to Melchior. Among lyric tenors, I consider Pavarotti,
Gigli, and Kraus far superior to JB. My all-time favorite tenors include
Corelli, Caruso, Gigli, and Melchior, each for different reasons and in
different repertoires. But these debates over who is the best are pointless
because these are personal judgments which cannot be objectively measured or
tested. If you enjoy listening to Bjoerling more than any other tenor, he is
the best FOR YOU.
Howard Hood
In article <19990422175854...@ng61.aol.com>,
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
> >From: "Lars Henriksson" <agnetha.h...@swipnet.se>
> >Date: Thu, Apr 22, 1999 16:52 EDT
> >Message-id: <01be8d01$fd1ef220$5f3cf482@preinstalledcom>
> >
> >When I provided you with the Guardian Weekly article, I started off with
> >expressing a personal opinion, which I think, though, is shared by a huge
> >amount of people: Jussi Björling is the greatest tenor of the century, if
> >indeed anyone deserves that title. In my opinion, Domingo is number two,
> >although I know that that opínion is more controversial.
> >
> >Who can match Björling?
> =================
> While I respect the opinion, I do not sharee it.
> My feeling is that there is no "Numero Uno". That is because there is a much
> wider repertory than a tenor -- even so great as Björling can encompass.
>
> There is, for example, Mozart, where I would prefer Cesare Valletti. In
> Wagner, I would suggest Lauritz Melchior. In Russian roles, there is Ivan
> Kozlovsky. In Berlioz, Nicolai Gedda. In Czech roles, Peter Dvorsky. In many
> French roles, César Vezzani or Alain Vanzo or Georges Thill.
>
> So why make assertions that only serve to invite flames of discord?
>
> Even if there were a "greatest", does that mean we should listen to no other?
> Hey I like Godiva chocolates -- but Hershey's and Nestle's are fine, too.
>
> Now when it comes to basketball players, well, there's only one Michael Jordan.
>
> All the best,
> ==G/P Dave
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Vulpecula
> But here we have a strange phenomenon: Both Jadlowker (and Chris Merritt) are
> great favorites of mine because I value their technique, while their relative
> lack of vocal beauty does not bother me at all. Bu, by the same token, tenors
> with great vocal beauty--such as Carreras, Pavarotti, Gigli, Lauri-Volpi are
> also great favorites. It all depends on the demands of the role. For Enzo
> Grimaldo, I value vocal beauty and passion. For Pirro or Antenore, it is
> technique. For Arnold or Manrico, it is vocal power and a big top. For Otello
> or Des Grieux (Puccini) it is extreme dramatic involvement, as is demonstrated
> by Piccaluga.
What about the notion that if you don't have a beautiful voice/tone, your
technique isn't all that good? I think tone improves and becomes more beautiful
the more solid your technique becomes. This doesn't seem to be a very popular
notion, though. It seems like "technique" is most often viewed as separate, as
though it doesn't have anything to do with beauty of tone. People weren't born
with beautiful voices as much as they were either born with or developed the
technique that frees the natural beauty. Chris Merritt is I think a good example
-- faulty technique, ugly sound.
Vulpecula
TomKauf2
>What about the notion that if you don't have a beautiful voice/tone, your
>technique isn't all that good? I think tone improves and becomes more
>beautiful
>the more solid your technique becomes. This doesn't seem to be a very
>popular
>notion, though. It seems like "technique" is most often viewed as separate,
>as
>though it doesn't have anything to do with beauty of tone. People weren't
>born
>with beautiful voices as much as they were either born with or developed the
>technique that frees the natural beauty. Chris Merritt is I think a good
>example
>-- faulty technique, ugly sound.
>
>Vulpecula
>
But perhaps technique is not the right word. For instance, few tenors have
Chris Merritt's enormous range, or his virtuoso abilities. While vocal beauty
(or lack of it) is really in the ear of the beholder. (I should say listener,
but you know what you mean). But, of course, it is also in the nature of thee
instrument. I realize, for instance, that Domingo's voice will never be
beautiful to me, while many consider it such. And, at the same time, that the
sound of Merritt's voice will always delight me. I would, however, hesitate to
use the word ugly in referring to the sound that any singer makes. I won't even
use it to describe Domingo.
Three cheers for virtuoso tenors like Jadlowker and Merritt. None for topless
wonders.
Tom
Vulpecula
> But perhaps technique is not the right word. For instance, few tenors have
> Chris Merritt's enormous range, or his virtuoso abilities.
Which are overrated, in my opinion. In the day when virtuosity was taken more for
granted, the Merritt we know would have had no career. If he is a virtuoso by
modern standards, that only shows how modern standards havfe deteriorated. I doubt
anyone in 1950 would have been particularly impressed, let alone 1900.
> While vocal beauty
> (or lack of it) is really in the ear of the beholder. (I should say listener,
> but you know what you mean). But, of course, it is also in the nature of thee
> instrument. I realize, for instance, that Domingo's voice will never be
> beautiful to me, while many consider it such. And, at the same time, that the
> sound of Merritt's voice will always delight me. I would, however, hesitate to
> use the word ugly in referring to the sound that any singer makes. I won't even
> use it to describe Domingo.
>
> Three cheers for virtuoso tenors like Jadlowker and Merritt. None for topless
> wonders.
Well, as long as your contented being in the minority.... :-) It is difficult for
me to imagine someone not hearing the beauty in Domingo's voice, but there it is.
As for "topless wonders", Domingo is not the only great tenor with a relatively
"short" voice. What about Richard Tauber, for instance?
Vulpecula
gnohm...@my-dejanews.com
wot...@aol.com (Wotan99) wrote:
> >Now when it comes to basketball players, well, there's only one Michael
> >Jordan.
You're saying he's the Babe Ruth of his sport?
Richard Kummins
"operatic" tenor. He loved Mozart, and sang in Mozart's operas, but how many
other operas did he appear in? Whereas Domingo has done everything from A
(AFRICAINE) to Z (Zarzuelas). I won't argue the merits of Merritt or
Domingo, (neither of whom I care for), but in Tauber you had one of the
great singers of his time, a singer who made you notice every syllable, and
whose love for singing was always apparent. If it weren't for Tauber, and
others like Schmidt, Volker, Wittrisch, et al, how could schlager have
survived?
I agree with most of the posts here that a number one can't really be pinned
down if you consider technique, tonal beauty, power, language, and different
fach's. But the question might be restated - which tenor makes the greatest
impact on your central nervous system? And then it's Bjorling all the way
for me, with Franz Volker a close second. After them would come Kozlovsky,
and Corelli in the years 1954 - 1962 only.
Regards,
Richard
dtritter
don ottavio, tamino and belmonte, and sang a lot of lehar and zeller
et.al. BUT he also sang a lot of long forgotten german repertoire, and
sang memorable jeniks and florestans and was the first german calaf in
turandot. just because his soft grained operetta singing became
extremely popular, don't forget what a really versatile tenor he
was...just because his roles don't tally up to the domingoesque record
of 10003 [whoops, wrong record!], don't think he was a one-dimensional
artist ... far from it.
dft
Vulpecula
> Not quite fair to hold Tauber up to Domingo. Tauber was not primarily an
> "operatic" tenor. He loved Mozart, and sang in Mozart's operas, but how many
> other operas did he appear in? Whereas Domingo has done everything from A
> (AFRICAINE) to Z (Zarzuelas). I won't argue the merits of Merritt or
> Domingo, (neither of whom I care for), but in Tauber you had one of the
> great singers of his time, a singer who made you notice every syllable, and
> whose love for singing was always apparent. If it weren't for Tauber, and
> others like Schmidt, Volker, Wittrisch, et al, how could schlager have
> survived?
Well, I don't know if a direct comparison between Tauber and Domingo is "fair",
but I brought him up as another tenor who doesn't seem to be faulted much for
his lack of high notes. I suppose if he never tried to sing as much rep as
Placido he dodged more criticism.
> I agree with most of the posts here that a number one can't really be pinned
> down if you consider technique, tonal beauty, power, language, and different
> fach's. But the question might be restated - which tenor makes the greatest
> impact on your central nervous system? And then it's Bjorling all the way
> for me, with Franz Volker a close second. After them would come Kozlovsky,
> and Corelli in the years 1954 - 1962 only.
Kozlovsky is certainly too often overlooked. But my central nervous system
would choose his predecsssor Smirnov. Kozlovsky:Smirnov::Tagliavini:Gigli.
Vulpecula
Benjamin Maso
Vulpecula wrote in message <37207737...@email.com>...
>
>What about the notion that if you don't have a beautiful voice/tone, your
>technique isn't all that good? I think tone improves and becomes more
beautiful
>the more solid your technique becomes. This doesn't seem to be a very
popular
>notion, though. It seems like "technique" is most often viewed as
separate, as
>though it doesn't have anything to do with beauty of tone. People weren't
born
>with beautiful voices as much as they were either born with or developed
the
>technique that frees the natural beauty.
That's a very good point, and I think that most voices considered to be
exceptionally beautiful are well placed and well produced - Gigli, Pavarotti
or Bjoerling for instance. It's also the reason why Domingo's potentially
beautiful voice always bothers me, because it isn't completely free (to put
it mildly) with all the negative effects on his articulation. However, a
good technique might be a contributive factor to what is experienced as the
"beauty" of the voice, but it's never sufficient nor necessary. For
instance, Richard Tucker had an impeccable technique, still many people
don't like his voice at all. On the other hand, Katia Ricciarelli IMO has a
very beautiful voice, although her technical flaws are evident.
Benjo Maso
GregF NC
>for me, with Franz Volker a close second. After them would come Kozlovsky,
>and Corelli in the years 1954 - 1962 only.
It seems like we agree here too <g>. I'm going to have to get some more of
Volker someday and perhaps Torsten Ralf too.
Greg F(in North Carolina)
Lars Henriksson
Björlings, although I think at his best he can produce "freer" sounds than
most people. When not in top form, he can get somewhat annoying in this
respect. But then again, Björling is unique, and one cannot always expect
tenors (thank god I'm not a tenor!) to possess all of the qualities a
singer ideally should have.
I belong to the people who are not very fond of Tucker's tone, with his
rock-steady technique, but love Riccarielli with her flaws in this respect.
Lars
Benjamin Maso <benj...@euronet.nl> skrev i inlägg
<7fqp2d$boi$1...@beast.euro.net>...
emmaa...@hotmail.com
> Richard Kummins wrote:
>
> > Not quite fair to hold Tauber up to Domingo. Tauber was not primarily an
> > "operatic" tenor. >
Vulpecula <myad...@email.com> wrote:
> Well, I don't know if a direct comparison between Tauber and Domingo
is "fair",
> but I brought him up as another tenor who doesn't seem to be faulted much for
> his lack of high notes. I suppose if he never tried to sing as much rep as
> Placido he dodged more criticism.
>
> > I agree with most of the posts here that a number one can't really be pinned
> > down if you consider technique, tonal beauty, power, language, and different
> > fach's. But the question might be restated - which tenor makes the greatest
> > impact on your central nervous system? And then it's Bjorling all the way
> > for me, with Franz Volker a close second. After them would come Kozlovsky,
> > and Corelli in the years 1954 - 1962 only.
>
> Kozlovsky is certainly too often overlooked. But my central nervous system
> would choose his predecsssor Smirnov. Kozlovsky:Smirnov::Tagliavini:Gigli.
Tauber sang a vast repertory, learning all kinds of new music rapidly. He had
high notes, but was not successful at integrating his "head" register into
his "chest" (and the terms are inaccurate and physically meaningless). He
could indeed touch on the high D in "head"; and he was a master of the voix
miste -- Domingo is not, and is cautious about head tone, singing with too
much pressure for his voice to be free enough to move in that way. Domingo in
no way could match Tauber's magic in the high lieing Tote Stadt highlights he
recorded -- in the duet with L. Lehmann he uses varying degrees of "head" to
blend -- amazingly -- with her; but in the opera's finale (the same music) he
sings out with a bronze tone which is quite impressive. However it does seem
he was not at ease singing fully in chest over the A flat and seems rarely to
have attempted higher than a full voiced B flat. However I do not find his
voice as limited as Domingo's. Not only is it IMO a more beautiful tone, but
a tone produced more freely with more musical results. Tauber had limits but
made magic with them. Domingo has limits and makes money with them. Tauber
dying of lung cancer could still sing a virile, large scale "Il mio tesoro".
His studio recording is a fantastic disply of skill, tempermament and
sonority and dwarf's Domingo's studio attempt. Live recordings in the theater
(The Bartered Bride) show a tone with more shine and bounce than Domingo who
tends to force, and who has built "size" at the expense of sweetness, which
Tauber never lost, not even when ill.
As for your Russians, surely Smirnov is no better nor much different than
Kozlovsky. Smirnov has a very throaty production, limited high notes, and the
tone sounds rather small, though he forces at climaxes. Like Kozlovsky he had
a big personality and made some beguiling records -- The Fair at Sorochinsk
is lovely and so is the Gretchanninov Cradle Song. But more often one is
aware of erratic pitch and some faking of technical challenges. Kozlovsky was
lucky in living so long into the LP era and recording a vast rep -- the
Rachmaninoff songs with orchestra for example, the many folk and pseudo folk
songs with guitar are quite special but any measure. And again it is
"specialness" I miss in Domingo, not necessarily high notes. Smirnov did not
make that many records. But I think he and K are cut from the same cloth,
with Smirnov having perhaps the better endowment. I'm surprised you didn't
prefer Sobinov to Kozlovksy. This is one of the most beautiful tenor voices
on record, he has a wonderful innate elegance and musicality and many records
are pure magic. His intonation is excellent and he never whines as Kozlovsky
does (it's also a fuller bodied more resonant sound which only tightens a bit
at the very top). A recent video tape of Russian singers from VAI shows him
singing "At the Ball" as an old man with plenty of plush in the tone.
Emma Albani
also at Albin...@hotmail.com
Stregata
> But then again, Björling is unique...
Strange that no one has mentioned in this thread the name of Nicolai Gedda, to
me one of the greatest, if not THE greatest tenor. I know I am being pretty
exclusive here, but it's just my opinion.
A voice capable to combine style, linguist abilities, beauty of tone, superb
technique, and a sincere and legitimate commitment in everything he sang.
True, his forte was not the Italian repertoire, but he excelled in everything
else.
I have always wondered who is the greatest of the two great Swedes of this
century, Bjorling or Gedda. Of course, that is a very subjective issue, but
IMO, Nicolai Gedda is a master example of everything an opera singer should
strive for. Long live Nicolai!
Stregata
Stregata
>although I know that that opínion is more controversial.
>
>Who can match Björling?
>
Ever thought of Nicolai Gedda? If any tenor should deserve to be the second
greatest tenor, it is Nicolai. He can match Bjorling on all counts, IMO. As
for the greatly overrated Mr. Domingo, Nicolai Gedda certainly leaves him in
the dust!
Stregata
Michael Black
> He can match Bjorling on all counts, IMO.
He can not match him with the Italian repertoire. I like Gedda, but I'm not crazy
about him. His high notes do not have that Italianate quality like Bjoerling
had. When talking about Italian(ate) tenors, Gedda is never mentioned, Bjoerling
is.
dwight
Thank you for remembering Gedda. I think something needs to be pointed
out here regarding Mr. Domingo. Can anyone find a recording of
Domingo's that is better than any previously recorded singer. Is his
Otello better than anything that preceeded it, I think not. Canio?
Chenier? Radamus? Calaf? There are many better singers than Domingo in
any rep you care to talk about. By todays standards, I suppose he is
the standard, but compared to anyone from the past, there is no way that
he could be considered one of the greatest tenors of the century. I
feel he has actually set singing standards at a lower threshold due to
singing things he has no business doing. He is a lyric tenor or perhaps
baritone with a very unsatisfactory top that make anything dramatic he
sings sound inferior to almost anyone that comes to mind.
But then this is only my opinion and I could be wrong,
Dwight
Commspkmn
out here regarding Mr. Domingo. Can anyone find a recording of
Domingo's that is better than any previously recorded singer. Is his
Otello better than anything that preceeded it, I think not. Canio? >>
I'm not so sure that is the criteria for judging the value of a singer. For
example, as much as I love Gedda, I'm hard-pressed to think of any of his
complete operatic recordings that outshine the competition (other than Anatol,
in Vanessa). That, in no way, lessens my admiration for him. Richard Tucker
is another tenor whom I adore, but again, I can't say that any of his complete
recordings provides the best assumption of the tenor part.
Recordings are important, sure, but how the reliability of the singer "under
fire (i.e. in actual performance)" seems to be even more important, IMO.
Ken Meltzer
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 12:55 EDT
>Message-id: <3721F7...@terragon.com>
>
SNIP >>> SNIP
>Thank you for remembering Gedda. I think something needs to be pointed
>out here regarding Mr. Domingo. Can anyone find a recording of
>Domingo's that is better than any previously recorded singer. Is his
>Otello better than anything that preceeded it, I think not. Canio?
>any rep you care to talk about. By todays standards, I suppose he is
>the standard, but compared to anyone from the past, there is no way that
>he could be considered one of the greatest tenors of the century. I
>feel he has actually set singing standards at a lower threshold due to
>singing things he has no business doing. He is a lyric tenor or perhaps
>baritone with a very unsatisfactory top that make anything dramatic he
>sings sound inferior to almost anyone that comes to mind.
>But then this is only my opinion and I could be wrong,
>Dwight
These are recordings in which I would rate Domingo's as the outstanding
interpretation:
IL TROVATORE (Levine / Price / Milnes)
LA FORZA DEL DESTINO (Levine / Price)
I LOMBARDI (Gardelli / Deutekom)
GIOVANNA D'ARCO (Levine / Caballé)
TANNHAEUSER (Sinopoli / Studer)
DIE MEISTERSINGER (Jochum / Ligendza)
FAUST (Pretre / Freni)
IL TABARRO (Leinsdorf / Price)
DON CARLOS (Giulini / Caballé)
Domingo is protean tenor. I find it useless to classify him. (Many of these
roles fall somewhere in between tenor and baritone ranges).
Nevertheless, I enjoy every one of Domingo's recordings I have heard --
without exception -- but the ones I have listed are among those in which I have
not found his equal among commercially available issues. Whether this is fully
the result of his singing or is abetted by excellent engineering, the results
are consistently pleasing to me. (As the Gershwins sang: "Who could ask for
anything more?")
Those are my opinions and I acknowledge I am as fallible as Dwight. And while
Dwight does not grant Domingo a place in his tenor pantheon, I most certainly
do in mine.
Cheers!
==G/P Dave
Daniel Raymond
>expressing a personal opinion, which I think, though, is shared by a huge
>amount of people: Jussi Björling is the greatest tenor of the century, if
dwight
Oh, please. I heard all the great tenors of the 50's 60's and even
heard Domingo and the Pav when they were starting out and in the best
voice of their careers. Pavarotti is a could have been but Domingo is
only where he is because there was no other tenor around. The only
tenors at this time were ending their careers or had retired. Everyone
will agree that singing has been dominated by the three tenors for 30
years so they have become the standard by which all others are to be
judged.
Domingo would have had a small career if he started in the 40's with all
the competition that was singing then. Gedda, diSteffino, Gigli, Tucker,
Vickers, delMonaco, Corelli, Bergonzi to name a few. I wish we could
live long enough to see what history writes about who were the best 10
tenors of the 20th century but I bet Domingo will not be there because
of the quality of singing not that he had a career of some 30 years. You
can't be considered great if you don't have atleast a good top, not one
that is pushed without a good support system.
But then again it is only my opinion gathered from listening to them
live not from records. I heard who could sing above the orchestra and
who had to have the orchestra hold back so they could be heard.
Dwight
Enrique Eskenazi
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
>These are recordings in which I would rate Domingo's as the outstanding
>interpretation:
>
>IL TROVATORE (Levine / Price / Milnes)
>LA FORZA DEL DESTINO (Levine / Price)
>I LOMBARDI (Gardelli / Deutekom)
>GIOVANNA D'ARCO (Levine / Caballé)
>TANNHAEUSER (Sinopoli / Studer)
>DIE MEISTERSINGER (Jochum / Ligendza)
>FAUST (Pretre / Freni)
>IL TABARRO (Leinsdorf / Price)
>DON CARLOS (Giulini / Caballé)
I do like Domingo, I have no problems with him and his lack of top, I
find other virtues in his singing, not being the lesser his legato (I
like Ed Rosen's description:"wonderful archs of sound") and his velvety
sound and commitment.
But...I would never consider his Manrico as the outstanding
interpretation (I still admire Pertile, Merli, Corelli, Tucker,
Bjorling...). I do like his studio Forza with Levine, but Galeano
Massini is still one of my favorite recorded Alvaro (and Corelli and
Tucker another) . IMO the Giluini's Don Carlos displays indeed an
exemplary interpretation. But I prefer many different Fausts better than
Domingo (Kraus, Gedda, Vanzo, Bjorling and the young Di Stefano). But I
do enjoy Domingo's Des Grieux in Puccini's Manon Lescaut and I wonder
why GPDave didn't mention it (and there are at least three good
recordings or the role: the one -live- with Olivero, the one with
Caballe and the later with Freni). Probably he prefers Bjorling...
Regards
---
Enrique
eske...@mail.sendanet.es
Io chi sono? Eh, non lo so.
-Nol sapete?
Quasi no.
TomKauf2
was delighted to see Dwight's post in which he writes, in part
:> I think something needs to be pointed
>out here regarding Mr. Domingo. Can anyone find a recording of Domingo's
that is better than any previously recorded singer. Is his Otello better than
anything that preceeded it, I think not. Canio? Chenier? Radamus? Calaf?
There are many better singers than Domingo in any rep you care to talk about.
By todays standards, I suppose he is the standard, but compared to anyone from
the past, there is no way that he could be considered one of the greatest
tenors of the century. I feel he has actually set singing standards at a lower
threshold due to singing things he has no business doing. He is a lyric tenor
or perhaps baritone with a very unsatisfactory top that make anything dramatic
he sings sound inferior to almost anyone that comes to mind.
>But then this is only my opinion and I could be wrong,>>
well, Dwight, it's my opinion too. Except I don't think of hims as setting
today's standard--there are better tenors around for that repertory. Roumen
Doykov, for example. It's just that the Met would rather have a name singer
than a singer with top notes and squillo.
Thanks for a great post., Dwight.
Tom Kaufman
TomKauf2
there are so many new people, I thought I would comment again:
>IL TROVATORE (Levine / Price / Milnes)
Never heard it, partly because I had too many Trovatores already.
>LA FORZA DEL DESTINO (Levine / Price)
I much prefer both Carreras and Grigorian De gustibus
>I LOMBARDI (Gardelli / Deutekom)
This is an opera with some very high tessitura that Domingo can't manage.
Compare it to the old Pavarotti (from Rome), especially in the "la mia letizia.
>GIOVANNA D'ARCO (Levine / Caballé)
Here, again, I [refer the pirate--this time with Bergonzi.
>TANNHAEUSER (Sinopoli / Studer)
>DIE MEISTERSINGER (Jochum / Ligendza)
No comment--never heard them.
>FAUST (Pretre / Freni)
NNot bad, but planning to get the Leech.
>IL TABARRO (Leinsdorf / Price)
Much prefer the Giacomini (or Cura in the aria)
>DON CARLOS (Giulini / Caballé)
This was my favorite Don Carlos, until I heard the super complete Carreras.
>
>Domingo is protean tenor. I find it useless to classify him. (Many of these
>roles fall somewhere in between tenor and baritone ranges).
Yes--many--but not the two early Verdi. (Lombardi and Giovanna d'Arco)
>
>
>Those are my opinions and I acknowledge I am as fallible as Dwight. And
>while
>Dwight does not grant Domingo a place in his tenor pantheon, I most certainly
>do in mine.
>
>==G/P Dave
With all respect to Dave, for whom I have the highest respect and great liking,
Domingo isn't in my tenor pantheon either.
Cheers
Tom
>
>
Umbramafe
love Bjoerling; he was the first tenor I listened to as a teenager and if I
have my choice will be the last tenor a listen to on my demise; HOWEVER, I must
disagree with your number 2 choice (and I'm sure there will be many who
disagree with both of us on No. 1); do we forget Caruso; he certainly belongs
to this century; and then of course there's Alfredo Kraus, Gigli, Correlli,
Bergonzi, and, although he is out of favor now, let's not forget the big guy,
Luci Pav.
emmaa...@hotmail.com
tomk...@aol.com (TomKauf2) wrote:
> I have seen G/P Dave's ratings before, and have probably commented before. But
> there are so many new people, I thought I would comment again:
>
> >IL TROVATORE (Levine / Price / Milnes)
>
> Never heard it, partly because I had too many Trovatores already.
I don't know Grndpa Dave but he's a good lister and I respect him. Still,
this offers the "young" Domingo singing as a lyric tenor. He has a less full
and rich timbre, less flowing logato and makes less of the words than
Bergonzi (on disk with Stella, live with Tucci). Bergonzi also has more
genuine heft when he needs it, Domingo as always resorts to excessive nasal
resonance with too much breath pressure and sounds constricted. It's well to
remember Bjorling sang this role all over the world in big theaters with huge
voiced singers like Cigna, Castagna, Warren and so on. He may not have had
quite the point and thrust of a spint and the close miked records exaggerate
the size of his voice. But from a lyric tenor's perspective, the sweetness,
rolling freedom of emission, gorgeous line, fine spun magical legato, highly
focused and thus exciting declamation are in a different class entirely from
Domingo. I don't forget Tucker both in the studio and live with Caballe --
not really great but so much more voice and ring, such shine on the tone and
the ability to cut lose when the parts demands it. Domingo must always be
careful. From the dramatic tenor perspective, Domingo is dwarfed by Pertile
and Merli -- brilliant ring, remarkable control and thrilling muscle in
declamation. The first has a marvellous personality and a wealth of color in
the singing Domingo can't begin to match. The second is a fine musician with
a feel for the elegance that ought to be present in the role. It's not only
there in intention (as it is with Domingo) but in execution. Frankly, though
I don't think either complete recording is a triumph, Pav gets closer IMO to
what the role needs in a basic way from a lyric tenor. Domingo's second
recording with Giulini is poor, his third (with Levine) is largely a figment
of the studio. He could not begin to do this role live. I heard him apologize
to the audience for cracking on two different occasions and saw him refuse to
bow after a very low "di quella pira" on one occasion. Like many big voices,
Corelli and Del Monaco lack elegance and limpidity in the role and tend to
belt. However the Met b'cast with Price and Corelli shows him doing a lot of
thrilling work -- LIVE. It's not that Domingo is at all bad on his first go
around. He's just nothing special.
>
>LA FORZA DEL DESTINO (Levine / Price)
>
> I much prefer both Carreras and Grigorian De gustibus
I'd take either Tucker, Masini or Bergonzi on commercial records, Di Stefano
live from 55 and 56, Tucker on any of his broadcasts. Carreras commercially
has no voice (with Sinopoli), Grigorian is a patch up job with much mucking
about with dial twirling and several transpositions. Domingo does rather an
authoritative Alvaro with Muti, which John Steane compared favorably to
Caruso's recordings. But while I respect that performance and there is some
soul and force there, the singing is as always tight and hedged. Live
recently this was a transposition special, of course. In former days live,
Domingo sounded small. Corelli was no artist, and Vickers was at sea (and
also transposed, though less) but live they were both unforgettable.
> >I LOMBARDI (Gardelli / Deutekom)
>
> This is an opera with some very high tessitura that Domingo can't manage.
> Compare it to the old Pavarotti (from Rome), especially in the "la mia
letizia.
I think that whole first Gardelli recording is hogwash (sorry). He does a
much better job on Hungariton which has the right wildness and a tenor who is
second rate but with some genuine ring (Castellato-Lamberti). Even the Pav
commercial has more the right kind of voice and a naturally managed as
opposed to effortfully manufactured line. However the best and only "la mia
letizia" is Escalais which leaves everyone else in the dust. And for the
trio, Domingo isn't a patch on Caruso, Gigli or Merli. Frankly I even think
Peerce is a little better. Pav in Rome too obviously doesn't know the role
and IMO is badly shown up by the stupendous Scotto.
> >GIOVANNA D'ARCO (Levine / Caballé)
> Here, again, I [refer the pirate--this time with Bergonzi.
Absolutely, Bergonzi is heaven there.
> >TANNHAEUSER (Sinopoli / Studer)
> >DIE MEISTERSINGER (Jochum / Ligendza)
> No comment--never heard them.
Both have awful German, especially Meistersinger which is funny at times.
Sure, he's pleasanter sounding than the average German tenor but I personally
can't get excited by generic, ad hoc sounding performances. Even the vaunted
musicianship is (IMO) only what you'd expect from somebody with training and
a good ear. The Melchior pirates of Tannhauser are overwhelming and in a
different catagory altogether despite the usual fudging of detail. I'd also
take the older Windgassen, with no hesitation the younger one, and I think
Kollo is quite solid and very involved in the Solti. I also love Windgassen's
Walther and Kollo's first, and the Walthers of King, Konya and Suthaus and
the young Jess Thomas. I think they all sing better with greater sweetness
and are more inside the role.
> >FAUST (Pretre / Freni)
> Not bad, but planning to get the Leech.
Terrible French, generic pushed singing, so sweetness or shine. On record give
me Corelli for a bumptuous and inartistic but really thrilling shot at the
part, full of temperament and only somewhat worse pronounced. Live I adore
Crooks (from the Met, on Naxos) -- such limpidity and spin, such large scale
lyricism (and bad French), there's Bjorling, (the one with Siepi he lowers the
aria), there's the young Di Stefano (amazing and good French), there's the
super butch Vezzani (thrilling, exceptional French) and there are extended
highlights with the wonderful timbred Thill. Also remember Caruso (quite good
French) recorded almost the entire role (several CD's collect all the Faust
recordings with the amazing Journet, the wonderful Scotti and the characterful
Farrar)
> >IL TABARRO (Leinsdorf / Price)
> Much prefer the Giacomini (or Cura in the aria)
Agree about Giacomini but you got something against Del Monaco? And frankly,
Shicoff in the recent EMI is pretty good.
> >DON CARLOS (Giulini / Caballé)
> This was my favorite Don Carlos, until I heard the super complete Carreras.
Vickers sounds like a real person and is very moving (bad Italian, odd
phrases, the nasal solution but a massive and important voice), Labo and
Fernandi are real tenors with ring and thrust. Fernandi (with Karajan) even
has ideas. Bergonzi is sublime on the Solti. Tucker live is thrilling.
Corelli live from Philly is astounding. Tuder Mazaroff in german from Vienna
in the 30's is astounding. Carreras sounds pretty, more so live than with
Karajan and seems to mean it. But he always sounds so constricted and
pressured to me.
I think Dwight's original point was excellent. Domingo is never bad and is
sometimes quite good on record. But it's hard not to think of better tenors
in all the roles he's recorded and certainly in those which have been the
basis of his fame.
Emma Albani
GRNDPADAVE
>>interpretation:
>>
>>GIOVANNA D'ARCO (Levine / Caballe)
>>TANNHAEUSER (Sinopoli / Studer)
>>DIE MEISTERSINGER (Jochum / Ligendza)
>>IL TABARRO (Leinsdorf / Price)
===================================
It is important to recall that Dwight's challenge was to name any RECORDINGS in
which Domingo's interpretation has pride of place in ANYONE's estimation.
-
I offer these, and I wish to note to note that however oftwen repeated, the
canard that Domingo lacks a tenorial top is belied in these instances.
-
Domingo's legacy is likely to survive because his work will increasingly be
judged in terms of recordings (just as that of Enrico Caruso). Those who
dislike him most apparently do so primarily from the evidence of their
in-theater experiences.
-
I did not list recordings where I enjoy his performance but where I feel he is
surpassed by other tenors.
-
For the record (no pun) these are:
-
LOHENGRIN - Sandor Konya
MANON LESCAUT - Giuseppe Di Stefano
AIDA - Jussi Bjoerling
LA TRAVIATA - Carlo Bergonzi
OTELLO - Ramon Vinay
SAMSON ET DALILA - Jose Luccioni
TOSCA - Giuseppe di Stefano
TURANDOT - Jussi Bjoerling
LA FANCIULLA DEL WEST - Mario del Monaco
LES TROYENS - Jon Vickers
ROMEO ET JULIETTE - Roberto Alagna
CARMEN - Nicolai Gedda
CAVALLERIA RUSTICANA - Giuseppe di Stefano
PAGLIACCI - Franco Corelli
UN BALLO IN MASCHERA - Carlo Bergonzi
LUISA MILLER - Luciano Pavarotti
WERTHER - Jose Carreras
IDOMENEO - Richard Lewis
In all of these opera recordings I find Domingo's performance excellent but not
definitive. I have avoided reference to recordings that are on private labels
or are otherwise difficult to obtain.
==G/P Dave
Lars Henriksson
also a member of the Jussi Björling society (in which Pavarotti is also a
member). Of the singers you mention, I like Kraus, Corelli and Pavarotti
from time to time, Gigli and Bergonzi most of the time. I think it's hard
to judge Caruso, because the recordings are so poor. Once I heard a digital
remastering of Caruso's "No, Pagliacco non son!", it was very impressive,
but I think even Caruso at his best were "only" ALMOST as good as Jussi.
The same goes for Gigli.
A singer who can match or almost match Björling as Manrico in Il Trovatore
is Mario del Monaco, although his failure to sing soft mars his singing
here. His "Di quella pira" can match Björling's preformance.
As for the great Domingo, I might be biased also. The very first opera aria
I ever listened to was his "Celeste Aida". I was flabbergasted. There are
even times when I prefer Domingo to Björling because of his less metallic
timbre (as in parts of Turandot), but Björling wields the larger, freer,
more personal and overall more impressive instrument.
All the best and SKÅL!!,
Lars Henriksson, in spite of everything proud to be a Swede
Umbramafe <umbr...@aol.com> skrev i inlägg
<19990425005340...@ng-cr1.aol.com>...
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 07:16 EDT
>Message-id: <01be8f0c$fc528ac0$1da9f482@preinstalledcom>
>
>Hello. Yeah, being a Swede I might be biased towards Jussi Björling. I'm
>also a member of the Jussi Björling society (in which Pavarotti is also a
>member). Of the singers you mention, I like Kraus, Corelli and Pavarotti
>from time to time, Gigli and Bergonzi most of the time. I think it's hard
>to judge Caruso, because the recordings are so poor. Once I heard a digital
>remastering of Caruso's "No, Pagliacco non son!", it was very impressive,
>but I think even Caruso at his best were "only" ALMOST as good as Jussi.
>The same goes for Gigli.
>
>A singer who can match or almost match Björling as Manrico in Il Trovatore
>is Mario del Monaco, although his failure to sing soft mars his singing
>here. His "Di quella pira" can match Björling's preformance.
>
>As for the great Domingo, I might be biased also. The very first opera aria
>I ever listened to was his "Celeste Aida". I was flabbergasted. There are
>even times when I prefer Domingo to Björling because of his less metallic
>timbre (as in parts of Turandot), but Björling wields the larger, freer,
>more personal and overall more impressive instrument.
>
>All the best and SKÅL!!,
>
>Lars Henriksson, in spite of everything proud to be a Swede
Lars' remarks cause me to recall that there used to be a funny series of
billboards in New York to the effect that one did not have to be Jewish to love
Levy's Rye Bread.
-
I think one can paraphrase this sentiment to apply to loving the voice of
Bjoerling without necessarily being Scandinavian.
-
My first experience with this incredible artist was hearing a 10-inch 78 rpm
recording (made in 1944) of Bjoerling singing "Nessun dorma". I had bought
this record originally for the number on the reverse side -- it was either
"Questa o quella" or "La donna e mobile").
-
In 1952 I was able to buy a wonderful two-LP set of IL TROVATORE in which
Bjoerling appears with Zinka Milanov, Fedora Barbieri and Leronard Warren. I
never thought this recording could ever be surpassed.
-
The 1955 AIDA with this same cast but augmented by Boris Christoff, Plinio
Clabassi, Bruna Rizzoli and with the dynamic beat of Jonel Perlea propelling
the proceedings is still my recording of choice.
-
In 1969 appeared a recording that revised my thinking about IL TROVATORE.
First it had the benefit of being note complete. (I now shun any Verdi
recordings that cut his scores -- and the 1952 above-mentioned TROVATORE
recording regrettably makes liberal use of scissors). In "Opera on Record",
John Higgins and Alan Blyth state: "Domingo's Manrico remains unsurpassed: it
is a model of freshness, charm, purity of tone and impeccable musicianship. It
has youth and buoyancy, two characteristics missing in so many Manricos
tackled by tenors later in their career. The fervour of Domingo's troubadour,
who has a young man's impetuousness and passion is matched by Milnes's equally
virile Luna. These two discover, almost effortlessly, the energy of the piece
and its unashamed cruelty. Fire, the single most dominant element of
Cammarano's libretto, is here thoughout in the singing." I could not have said
it any better.
-
Domingo has repeated this role but never quite recaptured the exuberance of his
1969 recording. When I first heard this recording I thought at the time --
here is the next Jussi Bjoerling!!
-
So let me observe: one doesn't have to be Hispanic to love the art of Placido
Domingo.
-
==G/P Dave
donpaolo
Both Bjoerling and Gedda are among the greatest blessings of tenordom in
the history of opera; both possessed voices & techniques that assure them
unique places in the Hall of Fame of Tenors. To compare them is futile,
since the only thing they had in common was their Swedish heritage; their
voices, techniques, temperaments were as diffenent as night & day. We owe
sincere gratitude as well as marvel to a country that could proudly produce
two such magnificent singers.
As to Domingo, he is simply not in their exalted class.
DonP.
A T
love
>As to Domingo, he is simply not in their exalted class.
>
>DonP.
_ _
\ @ /
( )
( )
_\/ \/_
donpaolo
dwight <dl...@terragon.com> wrote in article
<3721F7...@terragon.com>...
standards, I suppose he is
> the standard, but compared to anyone from the past, there is no way that
> he could be considered one of the greatest tenors of the century. I
> feel he has actually set singing standards at a lower threshold due to
> singing things he has no business doing.
Bravo, Dwight! This needed stating.
Domingo has indeed lowered the standards & hence expectations as to what
is considered as excellence in tenor singing.
Not only do his fans excuse, and even overlook his horrible croakings &
bellowed, strangulated high notes, some even show outright contempt for
tenors, such as DelMonaco & Corelli, who displayed ease & ability with
their top notes. In essence, this man has achieved a ruination of the high
standards that once represented supreme vocal efforts, as well as abandon &
intensity in performing.
Regards,
DonP.
MD
> Domingo has indeed lowered the standards & hence expectations as to what
> is considered as excellence in tenor singing.
>
> Not only do his fans excuse, and even overlook his horrible croakings &
> bellowed, strangulated high notes, some even show outright contempt for
> tenors, such as DelMonaco & Corelli, who displayed ease & ability with
> their top notes. In essence, this man has achieved a ruination of the high
> standards that once represented supreme vocal efforts, as well as abandon &
> intensity in performing.
>
>
You clearly hate Domingo, so I'm not going to even comment on the above, but to
give the man his due, he's been singing (as a leading tenor) since 1961. He
inevitably has less ease in his singing and has pared his roles down to those
in which he can make the best sound possible, given his age and the mileage on
his instrument. That he is "ruining the hight standards" of opera is
nonsense, any more than Gigli did by singing far too long. People remember him
in his prime as they will Domingo and Pavarotti. I venture to say that Domingo
continues on because people pay good money to hear him.... Since you hate him
so much, wouldn't it be simpler to not go to his performances or buy his CD's
and change the channel when you know he's going to be on TV? He's a great
artist, well past his prime... some people think he's magnificent... some
don't. Why the venom?
dwight
I am sorry I started this a few days ago, but the problem with Domingo
is not that he has sung past his prime and has less ease in his singing
and has pared his roles down, it is that the problems he has today were
there in the 60's. I have several CD's from the early to late 60's with
him singing live and there is no center to any of the top notes. There
was no support then as there is no support now and the notes wobbled so
much it sounds bad not to mention the vowel problems. Some may think he
is magnificent but they never really heard a great tenor to compare him
to. His records seem to have been cleaned up with electronic techniques
that fix pitch problems and even speed up the vabrato so there is a
center to the notes not to mention making the voice sound bigger. This
is not venom, but a hope that he be put in proper perspective. As I
said before, were it not for the lack of great singing since the 60's
Domingo would not have had the career he has had. The Pav is another
story. Here was truly something special, the prospect of another Gigli,
a tenor with exceptional beauty of voice but that did not happen and he
didn't live up to expectations or hopes.
So it is not that Domingo lost something with age, it is that the
problems were there for all to hear way back when he began his career.
Most of us dismissed him then assuming something better would come along
very soon, alas, we are still waiting.
Dwight
The Grand Inquisitor
donpaolo <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:01be8f47$3967b360$e43baccf@default...
>
> Both Bjoerling and Gedda are among the greatest blessings of tenordom in
> the history of opera; both possessed voices & techniques that assure them
> unique places in the Hall of Fame of Tenors. To compare them is futile,
> since the only thing they had in common was their Swedish heritage; their
> voices, techniques, temperaments were as diffenent as night & day.
In your opinion what were the differences in their techniques?
The Grand Inquisitor
notes". On its face it seems a physical impossibility. But perhaps you have
something else in mind.
Also, what do you mean by "no support"?
dwight <dl...@wizzards.net> wrote in message > I am sorry I started this a
james jorden
>
> I'm curious as to your meaning when you say "there is no center to his top
> notes". On its face it seems a physical impossibility.
As with most vocal terms used casually, this is a metaphor. "No center"
suggests that the top note does not create a sensation of focus or
pinginess, which admittedly are two other metaphors. Any note tends to
vary through a range of pitch; that variation may happen at various
speeds, and the movement between pitches may be regular or erratic. In
Domingo's case, "no center" suggests that the variation is through a
rather wide range of pitch, in an erratic manner -- therefore from one
instant to the next, the pitch is slighly and unpredictably different.
One might compare the vocal emission to a projected image on a screen:
"center" would mean in-focus and steady; "lack of focus" would mean that
there was some mechanical problem with the projector that caused the
image to shudder slighly.
> Also, what do you mean by "no support"?
Theoretically, the way high notes (or any notes) work is that the throat
is relaxed, with the breath doing the work. Now, another way of
producing high notes is to put a lot of tension on the vocal cords and
sort of squeeze the breath through. That, I think, is what is meant
here by "no support." (To me, "no support" means a croony tone, but the
point is that both that and those tight, ugly high notes are caused by
lack of a consistent flow of breath.)
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.parterre.com
"Style is the most important thing in the world. Fashion is the least."
-- Quentin Crisp
dwight
>
> I'm curious as to your meaning when you say "there is no center to his top
> something else in mind.
>
> few days ago, but the problem with Domingo
> > is not that he has sung past his prime and has less ease in his singing
> > and has pared his roles down, it is that the problems he has today were
> > there in the 60's. I have several CD's from the early to late 60's with
> > him singing live and there is no center to any of the top notes. There
> > was no support then as there is no support now and the notes wobbled so
> > much it sounds bad not to mention the vowel problems. Some may think he
> > is magnificent but they never really heard a great tenor to compare him
> > to. His records seem to have been cleaned up with electronic techniques
> > that fix pitch problems and even speed up the vabrato so there is a
> > center to the notes not to mention making the voice sound bigger. This
> > is not venom, but a hope that he be put in proper perspective. As I
> > said before, were it not for the lack of great singing since the 60's
> > Domingo would not have had the career he has had. The Pav is another
> > story. Here was truly something special, the prospect of another Gigli,
> > a tenor with exceptional beauty of voice but that did not happen and he
> > didn't live up to expectations or hopes.
> > So it is not that Domingo lost something with age, it is that the
> > problems were there for all to hear way back when he began his career.
> > Most of us dismissed him then assuming something better would come along
> > very soon, alas, we are still waiting.
> > Dwight
What I ment by no center to the notes is that the vabrato is so wide
that the center of the note is only slightly touched as the tone goes
from sharp to flat and back again. This is in my humble opinion due to
a lack of support from the diaphragm. The colume of air is pushed out
and not steadly emitted so the tone wobbles. I am not a singing teacher
so perhaps am not using the correct terms. But I heard the problem as
did others from the beginning of his career. If you compare Domingo's
top notes with say del Monaco, you can clearly hear the difference, MdM
hits the note dead center then the vabrato starts. You may not like the
sound of MdM but the technique for getting on and off the notes is far
superior to Domingo. When the singer gets on the note with faulty
technique, he/she can't get off of it with much grace, hence the screach
or the use of a consonant to get off the note. Sutherland had this
problem sometimes on the high E and almost always when she tried early
to sing the high F hence she transposed early in her career those works
that went to the F. But Domingo has it most of the time and not
necessarly at the top only. But then this is only my humble opinion.
Dwight
Vulpecula
> that the center of the note is only slightly touched as the tone goes
> from sharp to flat and back again. This is in my humble opinion due to
> a lack of support from the diaphragm. The colume of air is pushed out
> and not steadly emitted so the tone wobbles. I am not a singing teacher
> so perhaps am not using the correct terms.
What makes you think a voice teacher would use the correct terms? Many of them
do not.
> But I heard the problem as
> did others from the beginning of his career. If you compare Domingo's
> top notes with say del Monaco, you can clearly hear the difference, MdM
> hits the note dead center then the vabrato starts. You may not like the
> sound of MdM but the technique for getting on and off the notes is far
> superior to Domingo.
This is totally and completely true. Any well-endowed singer with the ability to
get onto and off of notes perfectly can sing circles around those who can't.
Perhaps ironically the "proper" physical technique for doing is by nature
somewhat unrefined, a la Del Monaco. A correct vocal attack, one that will not
allow tension into the larynx for the duration of a phrase, is a sudden,
instantaneous, one might almost say a "jarring" phenomenon, and it takes some
refinement and coordination to make it sound less so. But muscularly speaking,
the attack, which *must* come very suddenly after the breath, in order to avoid
tension creeping into the larynx, needs to be followed immediately by a
comparatively violent application of muscle power, the support muscles "leaping
to the aid" of the voicebox, as it were. By "violent" I mean in comparison to
what happens for normal phonation, like speaking. This is why many
singers-in-training practice "shouting" to activate their support muscles;
singing is very much like sustained shouting, which contrary to aesthetic
intuition can be quite healthfully executed. Del Monaco and other singers with
comparably-sized voices had this technique down superbly, but Del Monaco did not
go as far as, say, Tucker, in making his voice more listenable over long periods
by toning down the razor sharp attack (not that Tucker never used it himself) and
sustained shout.
> When the singer gets on the note with faulty
> technique, he/she can't get off of it with much grace, hence the screach
> or the use of a consonant to get off the note.
If you can get onto the note properly, getting off should follow more or less as
a matter of course.
> Sutherland had this
> problem sometimes on the high E and almost always when she tried early
> to sing the high F hence she transposed early in her career those works
> that went to the F.
(We all should have such difficulties....)
> But Domingo has it most of the time and not
> necessarly at the top only. But then this is only my humble opinion.
He's pretty good, by global standards, but not compared to the muscle
control/coordination exhibited by tenors like Del Moncao, Corelli and Tucker,
regardless of what you think of their artistry. Again ironically, much of this
proper muscle coordination must be effected by a proper conception of the sound
you make, and NOT by a proper conception of the muscle control itself (much of
which can really only happen involuntarily), and this is quite difficult for some
singers.
Vulpecula
emmaa...@hotmail.com
Vulpecula <myad...@email.com> wrote:
>A correct vocal attack, one that will not
> allow tension into the larynx for the duration of a phrase, is a sudden,
> instantaneous, one might almost say a "jarring" phenomenon, and it takes some
> refinement and coordination to make it sound less so. But muscularly
speaking, the attack, which *must* come very suddenly after the breath, in
order to avoid tension creeping into the larynx, needs to be followed
immediately by a comparatively violent application of muscle power, the
support muscles "leaping to the aid" of the voicebox, as it were. By
"violent" I mean in comparison to what happens for normal phonation, like
speaking. This is why many singers-in-training practice "shouting" to
activate their support muscles;
> singing is very much like sustained shouting, which contrary to aesthetic
> intuition can be quite healthfully executed. Del Monaco and other singers
with comparably-sized voices had this technique down superbly, but Del Monaco
did not go as far as, say, Tucker, [snip}
This sounds like the Stanley method to me. Is that what you had in mind? Del
Monaco did indeed use some elements of Stanley to build volume and stamina.
I've been told (but have no proof) that his voice was rather small to begin
with. Behrens has also used Stanley. If you are a singer, I would like to see
you demonstrate what you mean. Talk of "attack" and the use of shouting and
the term "muscles" are all part of Stanley. So is shoving a spoon down
somone's throat to force the opening as wide as possible. On the whole I have
seen more singers wreck their voices by aspects of this method than
otherwise. However as with all singing instruction, words generally do not
convey what someone actually does; superficial imitation can do a lot of
damage. What makes Bjorling so wonderful (for me) is the illusion of "no
attack" -- the voice is just there (likewise Melba and Battistini). The sound
bobbles on a firm, endless supply of air, without audible manipulation.
Working out the feeding of breath through the larynx (what is usually called
"support") is a tricky issue. On the whole Bjorling sounds to me as though he
used an "appogiare" conception of breath -- that is, the breath supply and
the muscles are strong and in postion but not working too actively. When they
"overwork" the tone "bulges", the line is poor and choppy and the tone
becomes stiff, with it being hard to sing truly softly, and when the attempt
is made to sing softly, flatting resulting. (That's exactly what happened
with Del Monaco). My own ideal singer is one where there is an endless spin
to the tone, no really obvious pressure, a minimal attack and the ability to
execute a "messa di voce" easily throughout the range. There are very few
people who can do that and there is plenty to enjoy in Del Monaco and others
who use a lot of pressure. I have watched Domingo work and know he uses a
deep and foreceful "support" -- with an emphasis on pushing out rather than
pulling in -- and also a "shouty" attack. He cannot sing softly and the tone
has been stiff for a long time, though it is still firm and has gotten quite
large. Limitations in high notes are probably due to the nature of his
equipment and the desire to have a rich large middle register. Also, I don't
think he has developed and integrated an open throated falsetto into his
training -- so there really is no "blend" -- thus notes abobe A flat are
highly contrived and rather uncertain. I don't hear the same things you
describe in Tucker -- the "singhiolto" attack (a quick high yelp which can be
made to sound like sobbing) to keep the throat open and get the larynx low is
obvious there (also with Shicoff). But on the whole I hear more spin from
Tucker and more appogiare.
donpaolo
The Grand Inquisitor <cbol...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article
<b%YU2.195$aG.5...@news4.mia>...
> In your opinion what were the differences in their techniques?
>
Difficult to explain. From a non-technical basis, it is that certain
"something" that I hear & react to when listening to or watching these
great gentlemen. Gedda seems to use the "raised palate" method of
attaining his high notes. If you'd note while watching some of his videos,
he appears to smile as he is going for the top notes. On the other hand,
Bjoerling seems to use the "oh" (Italianate?) technique, projecting with
the mouth in a position as though he were going to sing the "oh" vowel.
I also feel that Gedda projects more from his head, while Bjoerling uses
more of the column (diaphragm thru windpipe & eventually out of the
throat).
Just something that I hear & see - it might not make sense to another
observer.
Regards,
DonP.
The Grand Inquisitor
donpaolo <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:01be9034$f8caec20$2040accf@default...
Vulpecula
> This sounds like the Stanley method to me. Is that what you had in mind?
Not explicitly, no.
> Del Monaco did indeed use some elements of Stanley to build volume and stamina.
> I've been told (but have no proof) that his voice was rather small to begin
> with. Behrens has also used Stanley. If you are a singer, I would like to see
> you demonstrate what you mean. Talk of "attack" and the use of shouting and
> the term "muscles" are all part of Stanley. So is shoving a spoon down
> somone's throat to force the opening as wide as possible.
Stanley was not the only one to emphasize the importance of the attack, of course.
Shoving a spoon down your throat is not something I would endorse. I feel this
might focus too much attention on the throat and larnyx, and can lead singers to
try to consciously manipulate those muscles, as opposed to allowing them to "do
their thing" by concentrating more on intercostal support. Consciously trying to
"open the throat" often leads to a "throaty" sound, and away from the "bobbling"
you speak of. The throat should be open, but it is crucial that it open "of
itself", instantaneously, when the breath is taken, and the instantaneous attack
and proper registration allows it to stay open throughout the phrase.
> On the whole I have
> seen more singers wreck their voices by aspects of this method than
> otherwise. However as with all singing instruction, words generally do not
> convey what someone actually does; superficial imitation can do a lot of
> damage.
Which is exactly the point that should be made. I've had people tell me that
"opening my throat ruined my voice, therefore singers shouldn't try to sing with an
open throat", which is nonsense; there is simply a way to do it and a way not to.
The way to do it can be counterintuitive for some.
> What makes Bjorling so wonderful (for me) is the illusion of "no
> attack" -- the voice is just there (likewise Melba and Battistini). The sound
> bobbles on a firm, endless supply of air, without audible manipulation.
This is the refinement I spoke of; in the beginning the muscle action which enables
a free attack is a jarring sort of thing, but should also be a razor sharp thing,
based on the "smallest common denominator" of your sound. Attacks should not be
"massive" or messy, but they should be instantaneous, and this is the trick. It
takes refinement and coordination to turn what in the beginning is a rather
massive, messy muscle action into a razor sharp, precise commencement of sound. It
can only happen with a fully coordinated registration. This makes the illusion of
no attack possible.
> Working out the feeding of breath through the larynx (what is usually called
> "support") is a tricky issue. On the whole Bjorling sounds to me as though he
> used an "appogiare" conception of breath -- that is, the breath supply and
> the muscles are strong and in postion but not working too actively. When they
> "overwork" the tone "bulges", the line is poor and choppy and the tone
> becomes stiff, with it being hard to sing truly softly, and when the attempt
> is made to sing softly, flatting resulting. (That's exactly what happened
> with Del Monaco).
I agree. Many singers overestimate the amount of strength to be consciously
employed during phonation, and this leads to the common phenomenon of
"over-supporting." There should be a great deal of strength there, which Bjoerling
definitely possessed, but it shouldn't be engaged in the same way you would very
often use your muscles to lift a heavy object, by tensing up. Only with a great
deal of intercostal muscular development is one able to take a *relaxed* breath
that opens the ribcage to its fullest capacity, thereby holding the throat open.
Focusing on a "spoon in your throat" or on "flexing your support muscles"
inevitably takes you away from the relaxed breath, and allows tension to creep into
the larnyx. It's a tricky thing.
> My own ideal singer is one where there is an endless spin
> to the tone, no really obvious pressure, a minimal attack and the ability to
> execute a "messa di voce" easily throughout the range.
They barely exist anymore.
> There are very few
> people who can do that and there is plenty to enjoy in Del Monaco and others
> who use a lot of pressure.
Del Monaco developed the correct way of singing, but he simply sang too damn loud
for too long. His voice is a testament to what a singer is capable of in terms of
power, but just because you can sing that loud doesn't mean you should repeatedly.
Any number of singers before him could have pushed there voices to that sort of
volume, but wisely chose not to (such as Battistini, who "only sang on the
interest, never the principal). And there were singers before him who did perhaps
sing as loud (Melchior, Thomas), but maybe not to such an extent. It would be
difficult to say.
> I have watched Domingo work and know he uses a
> deep and foreceful "support" -- with an emphasis on pushing out rather than
> pulling in -- and also a "shouty" attack. He cannot sing softly and the tone
> has been stiff for a long time, though it is still firm and has gotten quite
> large. Limitations in high notes are probably due to the nature of his
> equipment and the desire to have a rich large middle register. Also, I don't
> think he has developed and integrated an open throated falsetto into his
> training -- so there really is no "blend" -- thus notes abobe A flat are
> highly contrived and rather uncertain.
Domingo has always focused on support, proving that if you do at least that you
will retain your voice to some extent for a long time. But it seems like he never
quite had the proper inner conception of what sounds you should make, hence the
contrived high notes. It's as though he didn't figure out what those notes should
really feel like, and sound like to the inner ear, meaning that no matter how hard
he tries to support them, if the sound concept is off they will never be free and
easy. A singer who cannot produce those notes which should comprise the top of his
range (for a tenor, at least B-flat or C) has invariably tried to take too much
weight from the lower register up, instead of properly exercising the upper
register.
> I don't hear the same things you
> describe in Tucker -- the "singhiolto" attack (a quick high yelp which can be
> made to sound like sobbing) to keep the throat open and get the larynx low is
> obvious there (also with Shicoff). But on the whole I hear more spin from
> Tucker and more appogiare.
True.
Vulpecula
emmaa...@hotmail.com
Vulpecula <myad...@email.com> wrote:
Thanks for such a thoughful, detailed and interesting response. I have enjoyed
reading all your posts.
Emma Albani
Vulpecula wrote:
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
andre35
stre...@aol.com (Stregata) wrote:
> Lars Henriksson wrote:
>
> > But then again, Björling is unique...
>
> Strange that no one has mentioned in this thread the name of Nicolai Gedda, to
> me one of the greatest, if not THE greatest tenor. I know I am being pretty
> exclusive here, but it's just my opinion.
>
> A voice capable to combine style, linguist abilities, beauty of tone, superb
> technique, and a sincere and legitimate commitment in everything he sang.
> True, his forte was not the Italian repertoire, but he excelled in everything
> else.
>
have always wondered who is the greatest of the two great Swedes of this
> century, Bjorling or Gedda. Of course, that is a very subjective issue, but
> IMO, Nicolai Gedda is a master example of everything an opera singer should
> strive for. Long live Nicolai!
>
> Stregata
>
> Stregata: I see you haven't changed your rather subjective (to be sure)
tastes in tenors. well plus que ca change......etc.
Happy to be back.
Andre35
JerNels
<< In 1952 I was able to buy a wonderful two-LP set of IL TROVATORE in which
Bjoerling appears with Zinka Milanov, Fedora Barbieri and Leronard Warren. I
never thought this recording could ever be surpassed. >>
<snip>
<< In 1969 appeared a recording that revised my thinking about IL TROVATORE.
>>
I disagree with your revision. The Bjoerling/Milanov/Warren/Barbieri TROVATORE
remains, IMHO, perhaps the greatest Verdi opera recording.
-Jerry
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Thu, Apr 29, 1999 01:53 EDT
>Message-id: <19990429015300...@ng-ce1.aol.com
> The Bjoerling/Milanov/Warren/Barbieri
>TROVATORE
>remains, IMHO, perhaps the greatest Verdi opera recording.
>
Dear Jerry,
-
With all due respect, I would never give such an accolade to a recording that
has cut so much of Verdi's wonderful music no matter how well sung the
remaining portions are.
-
Mehta's recording (which I think has the most propulsive and atmospheric
conducting of any offering) is not only note complete but provides terrific
singing -- and yes -- superlative high notes from its rmo-beleaguered tenor.
Cossotto and Giaiotti, imho, surpass Barbieri and Moscona. The other singers
are fairly evenly matched, although I think Warren is in another realm when he
sings "ah l'amore l'amor e ondardo." (I just can't hear those lines without
inwardly singing along with him).
-
I would not be without the Cellini recording, but I think Mehta's, for the
reasons given, is the better one.
-
All the best,
==G/P Dave
TomKauf2
going to say five words:
"but it's cut to shreds"
But Dave beat me to it.
To be honest, there isn't a single totally satisfactory recording of the opera
which is:
1. Note complete
2. Has a top notch tenor for the title role
3. Has a first class supporting cast.
Now, I realize that Dave disagrees with me on point 2. But Domingo just isn't
my cup of tea, and neither is Leontyne Price. I guess I have several
candidates, but none meet all the requirements.
Be that as it may, when the tenor is found, let's hope he records it with
Zajick, Miricioiu, and whoops---baritone??? Any baritone??????
But I think I would get it with Miricioiu, Zajick, Doykov, and ...........
Oh well.
Tom
Michael Black
> But I think I would get it with Miricioiu, Zajick, Doykov, and ...........
How about Radvanovsky, Cura, Zajick, and Hvorostovsky...
Of course, Zajick has already recorded Azucena with Domingo and Millo.
--
Michael Black
http://www.michaelblack.com
"What comes up, must come down."
Lars Henriksson
why I'm still proud to be a Swede, strange as this country sometimes is.
But I strongly disagree with you regarding Domingo; for me, he stands
somewhere in between the incomparable Jussi and the also great Gedda.
Chacun a son goüt,
Lars Erik "The Viking" Henriksson
donpaolo <donp...@erols.com> skrev i inlägg
<01be8f47$3967b360$e43baccf@default>...
>
> Both Bjoerling and Gedda are among the greatest blessings of tenordom in
> the history of opera; both possessed voices & techniques that assure them
> unique places in the Hall of Fame of Tenors. To compare them is futile,
> since the only thing they had in common was their Swedish heritage; their
> voices, techniques, temperaments were as diffenent as night & day. We
owe
> sincere gratitude as well as marvel to a country that could proudly
produce
> two such magnificent singers.
>