Karajan / Vickers / Dernesch TRISTAN
Roger D. White
With all the current interest in Tristan and Isolde, I'm thinking of
buying the EMI Karajan set, but haven't read much about it here. Two
fine singers, I expect Dernesch would offer a warmer sound than some;
and Vickers, while not my favorite Tristan, could still sing rings
around most. My only qualm is that, as I prefer my T&I on the intense,
dramatic side, Karajan will offer up one of his infamous emotionally
cool, over refined and s l o w readings. I could get fooled,of course.
How about some opinions on this version. Many thanks.
SEASON'S GREETINGS TO EVERYONE AT RMO!
~Roger
maf1029
soprano? Was she any good?
Roger D. White wrote in message
<28921-38...@storefull-616.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Hi Everyone ~
Wotan99
I happen to like it a great deal, and would have no problem recommending it.
Should it be the only one you own-of course not-but it has many virtues,
including the great Vickers(I don't know why he's not your favorite) in maybe
his greatest role. Yes, he can sing rings around most-but that is never the
point with him-his singing of Act III is just on a whole other level of
intensity, and meaning than anyone else. (sure Melchior had the perfect voice,
but this is not just about voice, and the Melchior recordings have those
terrible cuts in the last act which bother me more than the traditional ones in
the second)) Obviously you have to own a Furtwangler-but I'll leave it up to
the collectors to recommend one-I have a couple.
Now Dernesch is no Flagstad, and like many others may have been consumed by the
von K machine but she has a lot to offer here.
As to the problem for many- von K's conducting. You see I actually like his
work (and there were different phases in his long recorded career) so I don't
buy that he is emotionally cool-over refined, perhaps becausel I think he was
looking for some recorded sound ideal, and if they are slow (I'm sure the
timers will fill us in) it doesn't drag like Levine does. I also happen to
adore the sound of the Berlin Phil. in that era. In a way this reaction to von
K reminds me of people who call G.Gould cool, detached seeking some inhuman
perfection of sound-I think musical ecstasy is expressed in different ways. It
is interesting how fashions ebb and flow with musicians-and von K is definately
out of fashion. (e.g. a tenor I've always admired, C. Bergonzi -but preferred
others when he was singing, can do no wrong)
By the way I was listening to several different versions of the ending of Act
II this afternoon, and find much more involvement and emotion in this
recording, than the worshipped Boehm-Nilsson one-IMO
Wotan
Roger D. White
FWIW, here's what the Penguin Guide says: "Dernesch as Isolde is
seductively feminine, not as noble as Flagstad, not as tough and
unflinching as Nilsson; but the human quality makes this accont if
anything more moving still, helped by glorious tone-colour through every
range."
R
MSten4MHS
>buying the EMI Karajan set, but haven't read much about it here. >>
This is one of the great sets. Dernesch does get into extremis in a number of
spots (the high Cs in the Act II duet, for instance), so she doesn't have the
ease of vocal production of Nilsson in this rep. Her sound may be considered
warmer than Nilsson, but I've never considered the Nilsson sound to be cold.
The big win is in the Tristan - Vickers is simply magnificent. Even his various
"funny voice" sections where he lapses into a croon work in this piece. I'd say
that Grimes was his best role, but this is one outstanding portrayal of
Tristan. I'm not Windgassen fan - he always sounds like an under-powered clerk
on busman's holiday to me - his wide-open vowels through the passaggio and up
are painful to listen to to my ears, and the interpretation is limited by his
lack of vocal resource and color. I've always considered the Bohm recording as
"...und Isolde" as the tenor seems to have gone missing.
One also should not overlook the contributions of Ludwig and Berry who are far
preferrable to many other alternatives. Even the casting of Bernd Weikl as
Melot is brilliant - there's a pathos in his voice on this recording that makes
Melot more than the cardboard "baddie" he seems to be in many recordings where
a spieltenor assumes the role.
Finally, there's Karajan's interpretation which is aided in great part by the
magnificent BPO. No one displays the delirium of the lovers in the Act 2 duet
as well - or, try the transition from Isolde's entrance in the third Act to
Vicker's final utterance of her name - it's sheer magic. Those who love to call
Karajan "cool" have their lunch eaten by this recording.
One caveat - you should avoid the LP and 1989 CD incarnations of this
recording, a CD version that still seems to show up in record stores in the
USA. The recording was remastered in 1994 by EMI to great effect. The voices
are more forward, the orchestra sounds as if it's in a real space, and the
funny balances that afflicted the earlier versions are gone.
How to tell the 2 CD versions apart? The 1994 version has a painted image of a
ship on the CD cover; the "bad" version has Karajan's name emblazoned across
the top with a production photo as artwork. The 1994 version also contains a
complete German/English libretto; the 1989 CD contained only the German text.
Check the back of the CD slipcase for the (P) date to be sure you got the
better version.
Happy listening.
Mark Stenroos
VP of Marketing & Catalog Development
Musical Heritage Society, USA
Joe Caporiccio
>
> Hi Everyone ~
>
> With all the current interest in Tristan and Isolde, I'm thinking of
> fine singers, I expect Dernesch would offer a warmer sound than some;
> and Vickers, while not my favorite Tristan, could still sing rings
> around most. My only qualm is that, as I prefer my T&I on the intense,
> dramatic side, Karajan will offer up one of his infamous emotionally
> cool, over refined and s l o w readings. I could get fooled,of course.
> How about some opinions on this version. Many thanks.
>
> ~Roger
There is ONE reason to get this recording - Vickers searing Act Three -
hOever Karajan has made recordings where it sounds liek the Orchestra is
on stage and the singers are in the pit - on this recording it sounds
liek the orchetra is offstage sometimes too!
Then again, my favorite Tristan is a recording that no one seems to like
except me - the FIRST Nillson recording conducted by Solti.
David Shengold
----------
In article <38594620$1...@huge.aa.net>, "maf1029" <maf...@eburg.com> wrote:
>Dernesch?? She used to be a
>soprano? Was she any good?
Well, she started as a mezzo ( Marina and Preziosilla and such) but moved to
soprano with Sieglinde
(maybe on tour in Japan?) in 1965.
Other than Isolde you can hear her as both the SIEGFRIED and
GOETTERDAEMMERUNG Bruennhildes and Leonore for Karajan and Elisabeth for
Solti. There are upper register problems, sometimes severe, in all of them
but also great artistry and much impressive singing in the middle. On
balance I think Isolde is her best recorded soprano role. She had also sung,
Elisabetta di Valois and the Marschallin (notably at Scottish Opera opposite
Janet Baker).
Nevertheless once she redescended to mezzo she had an easier time of it, and
I am grateful to have seen her several times in the early 80's while there
was still a lot of voice and handsome tone there- Reimann's Goneril,the
WALKUERE Fricka, Waltraute and Marfa in KHOVANSHCHINA were all unforgettable
assumptions by a riveting stage artist.
After that I saw a few highly enjoyable character performances, as Herodias
and Klytemnestra
(upstaging Dame Gwyneth, no mean feat) and Mme. de Croissy. These days it's
all LATE Moedlrollen like the Old Countess in QUEEN OF SPADES and Begbick (
in which she must be excellent).
-David Shengold
graphicsgroup
overparted factory whistle. Very unpleasant to listen to at times. This
is just one of many example where von karajan urged singers to take on
roles beyond there fach. I.E janowitz as Sieglinde--Riciarelli as
Turandot..the list goes on and on. If the role calls for a Big Meaty
voice, then cast it with a Big meaty voice, not some poor singer
constantly being required to produce at the outer limits of their
ability. Just my opinion.
Peter Bez
maf1029
much sucked. I heard her sing die Amme in Frau ohne Schatten. Same story. I
also have her on CD singing Frau Peachum in Weill's Dreigroschenoper. She's
ok (of course, she sounds FABULOUS compared to Milva and Rene Kollo). I was
just surprised that she had done any soprano roles as she has nothing above
an F.
David Shengold wrote in message <83br22$vr1$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
David Shengold
Time passes. So do upper registers. Miss Dernesch is (officially) at least
60 years old.
I heard Astrid Varnay in 1979 in MAHAGONNY and it was not pretty, but that
doesn't keep me from esteeming her fantastic achievements as a soprano
earlier in her career.
-David Shengold
----------
maf1029
passing, but I heard Varnay (on recording) singing the Nurse in Frau ohne
Schatten (bootleg, ChicagoSO, 1978) and she sounded WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY
better than Dernesch in the same role. I'll have to get a recording of Helga
in her early career.
David Shengold wrote in message <83cb6v$3dv$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
TJNORT
1972 Salzburg performances of TRISTAN UND ISOLDE and was very much impressed.
For this reason he bought the EMI recording as soon as it was released. He was
shocked by the difference in quality between the live and the recorded
performances in this case. (He thought that the live performances were MUCH
superior to what had been captured in the studio.) Perhaps EMI or DG will
someday release the radio tape of the live performance from 1972, as so much
live recording from Salzburg has gotten to CD in recent years.
John Shanty
Vickers and Dernesch is in the packaging you describe below, ("Karajan" in
huge type across the top, and a blue-ish looking photo of T&I under a sail,
with the orchestra below) and from, according to the date on the back, 1988.
Catalog No. CDMD 7 69319 2. It DOES include a translation of the German
text side by side. As for the sound quality being superior on the newer
mid-price remastering I can't say. But I have no complaints about
mine...especially when I got it for about $9 at BMG.
John Shanty
Matthew B. Tepper
reputed to have iterated as follows...
>
>Time passes. So do upper registers. Miss Dernesch is (officially) at
>least 60 years old.
>
>I heard Astrid Varnay in 1979 in MAHAGONNY and it was not pretty, but
>that doesn't keep me from esteeming her fantastic achievements as a
>soprano earlier in her career.
>
>-David Shengold
She was already rather hooty five years previously as Herodias (that is,
in _Salome_; the SFO had not yet begun its Massenet binge).
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
JAD
>
> One caveat - you should avoid the LP and 1989 CD incarnations of this
> recording, a CD version that still seems to show up in record stores in the
> USA. The recording was remastered in 1994 by EMI to great effect. The voices
> are more forward, the orchestra sounds as if it's in a real space, and the
> funny balances that afflicted the earlier versions are gone.
>
> How to tell the 2 CD versions apart? The 1994 version has a painted image of a
> ship on the CD cover; the "bad" version has Karajan's name emblazoned across
> the top with a production photo as artwork. The 1994 version also contains a
> complete German/English libretto; the 1989 CD contained only the German text.
> Check the back of the CD slipcase for the (P) date to be sure you got the
> better version.
>
> Happy listening.
>
> Mark Stenroos
> VP of Marketing & Catalog Development
> Musical Heritage Society, USA
Thanks for the tip. I haven't replaced my Tristan records with CD's since effort
#1 (the Furtwangler) seemed very disappointing--the CD seemed to have all the
cliche'd (but vaguely experienced and defined) defects--'harshness' etc. (I say
'seemed' because I can't quantify this, and friends are much less willing than they
ought to be to spend hours conducting the required 'double-blind' studies for my
benefit.) Not so here?
Thanks,
JAD
Edward A. Cowan
> One caveat - you should avoid the LP and 1989 CD incarnations of this
> recording, a CD version that still seems to show up in record stores in the
> USA. The recording was remastered in 1994 by EMI to great effect. The voices
> are more forward, the orchestra sounds as if it's in a real space, and the
> funny balances that afflicted the earlier versions are gone.
>
> How to tell the 2 CD versions apart? The 1994 version has a painted image of a
> ship on the CD cover; the "bad" version has Karajan's name emblazoned across
> the top with a production photo as artwork. The 1994 version also contains a
> complete German/English libretto; the 1989 CD contained only the German text.
> Check the back of the CD slipcase for the (P) date to be sure you got the
> better version.
Thanks for that essential information. I have had the LPs for years and
have hardly played them because of the backward placement of the voices
("Where are they?") and the too-forward placement of Karajan's
orchestra, great though their work certainly is. I shall be seeking out
the 1994 CD reissue. I heard Vickers in Dallas as Tristan with soprano
Roberta Knie, cond. Franz Paul Decker, a notable performance. (That was
before Mme. Knie's voice went poof!) I also heard Dernesch as a soprano
in Dallas (Leonore in _Fidelio_ in 1971, cond. Charles Mackerras), this
also with Vickers as Florestan.
-- E.A.C.
Claud H. Shirley III
>
> A friend of mine told me many years ago that he had heard the broadcast of the
> 1972 Salzburg performances of TRISTAN UND ISOLDE and was very much impressed.
> For this reason he bought the EMI recording as soon as it was released. He was
> shocked by the difference in quality between the live and the recorded
> performances in this case. (He thought that the live performances were MUCH
> superior to what had been captured in the studio.
Can't agree with this - Dernesch sounds or is made to sound much more
secure on the studio recording. In the live performance, she almost
loses it (the voice) a couple of times during the Act II duet, as does
Vickers (although the act is complete, and tenors who can get through
all the first part of the scene uncut, and have something left for the
duet proper, are no longer heard of, unless Hepner is it). Also,
Dernesch loses the last note of a rather pressure-cooked Liebestod - it
just vanishes. Some of this was probably the Maestro's fault - frenetic
speeds during the duet, lugubrious in the last act - problems
insurmountable for less than complete techniques, no matter how great
the interpreter. Listening to the great Vickers come to some
forgiveable grief makes one comprehend why tenors cut so much of the
first part of the duet - the first part of the third act, although more
extended, is much better paced for vocal recoveries between the great
outbursts.
The last times I have heard Mdm. Dernesch, from the '88 Frau on, she has
started with much more than she has left after about a third of her
performance, and a thin G was really the top good in-tune note left, a
shortcoming for which no amount of excellent acting can compensate in
roles like the Amme or Herodias. The outstanding performance,btw, of
the live Karajan Tristan is Crista Ludwig's desperate Brangaene.
tlst...@tpgi.com.au
ra...@webtv.net (Roger D. White) wrote:
> Hi Everyone ~
>
> With all the current interest in Tristan and Isolde, I'm thinking of
> buying the EMI Karajan set, but haven't read much about it here. Two
> fine singers, I expect Dernesch would offer a warmer sound than some;
> and Vickers, while not my favorite Tristan, could still sing rings
> around most. My only qualm is that, as I prefer my T&I on the intense,
> dramatic side, Karajan will offer up one of his infamous emotionally
> cool, over refined and s l o w readings. I could get fooled,of course.
> How about some opinions on this version. Many thanks.
>
> SEASON'S GREETINGS TO EVERYONE AT RMO!
> ~Roger
Vickers is fine in this. Frigheningly so, in Act III. Dernesch takes some
getting used to, IMHO. By the way, there's an excellent Decca set
conducted by Reginald Goodall involving the soprano Linda Esther Gray.
She's wonderful. Whatever happened to her? Goodall's conducting is
fantastic. The tenor John Michinson has a voice I find it hard to
appreciate. But the whole is well worth hearing. Repeatedly. So is the
Karajan.
--
Cheers!
Terry
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HenryFogel
>From: graphicsgroup graphi...@mediaone.net
>Date: Thu, 16 December 1999 05:48 PM EST
>Message-id: <38596C2B...@mediaone.net>
No, it is not just you. I too feel that what is missing in the Dernesch Isolde
is tonal weight, tonal body. I think I remember Conrad Osborne reviewing this
in High Fidelity Magazine when the LPs came out, and saying something like
this: casting Dernesch as Isolde is like supplying a Volkswagen Beetle when a
Mack Truck is needed for the job.
You can, of course, hear her at all times because microphones can provide any
balance desired. But volume doesn't equal tonal weight, and to me Dernesch just
sounds wrong for this music.
Henry Fogel
Neil Bown
exactly the sound he wanted, still a landmark recording IMO.