Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Qwyneth Jones vs. Birgit Nilsson
871 views
Skip to first unread message
johnrsa...@live.com
Sep 27, 2012, 6:57:13 AM9/27/12
to
Has anyone on here heard both Jones and Nilsson live? Who had the bigger voice? Listening just on recordings Jones sounds even more massive than Birgit at the top of her voice. I was very lucky to have heard Jones in Kundry in Bayreuth in 1975 at her peak. Unfortunately I was 15 and didn't have the experience to know what I was experiencing. Also, although it was visually great to be sitting backstage to view the performance, I have a feeling you had to be towards the back of the house to get the full impact of her sound. My sister knew a singer that summer at Bayreuth and he got us special seats.
chsiii
Sep 27, 2012, 11:53:39 AM9/27/12
to
Gwyneth Jones had an immense, kind of blowsy voice, prone to a large wobble
in the middle, and huge high notes that tended sharp. She was always
impressive, but to like her voice was an acquired taste, imo. She was also
an excellent actress. Jones also had a certain bel canto capability that
allowed her to take on many of the great Italian roles, most remarkably,
Norma, late in her career, in what can only be called an astonishing
performance, complete with High D! Not many have had a bigger sounding
voice than Jones - Crespin, Rysanek, Dimitrova, Tebaldi (when really cutting
loose - "Madonna, Madonna, salvami, salvami!).
Birgit Nilsson had a voice like a laser beam - focused, giving off a blaze
of overtones that made her sound as if inside your head, soft or loud. Her
tone was more attractive than Jones', and more evenly produced throughout
her entire range, if not as big sounding. In the rush to tout her high
notes, some forget that in the middle register, Nilsson was very lyrical -
and she had complete dynamic control throughout. It was always a magical
moment when she arrived, in the the opening monologue in Elektra, at "die
stunde," and took it in a mysterious piano voice, and then later in the
Orest recognition scene - her soft high notes were gorgeous, and extremely
effective in suggesting the vulnerability of an otherwise fearsome lady.
The same with Turandot, although I never felt that Nilsson portrayed
Turandot at the same depth as Isolde or Brunnhilde. Funny that you could
believe her to be vulnerable in the big German stuff, but in the Italian,
she was just too...fierce. She sang an admirable Tosca and Aida and Amelia,
but it was just not possible to believe that she would bend to the
circumstances that spell the downfall of those ladies. Her best Verdi, for
me, was the Requiem. But for Brunnhilde, Isolde, Elektra - no one after her
has sung them better, or longer.
wrote in message
news:f9cda782-826b-4f7e...@googlegroups.com...
in the middle, and huge high notes that tended sharp. She was always
impressive, but to like her voice was an acquired taste, imo. She was also
an excellent actress. Jones also had a certain bel canto capability that
allowed her to take on many of the great Italian roles, most remarkably,
Norma, late in her career, in what can only be called an astonishing
performance, complete with High D! Not many have had a bigger sounding
voice than Jones - Crespin, Rysanek, Dimitrova, Tebaldi (when really cutting
loose - "Madonna, Madonna, salvami, salvami!).
Birgit Nilsson had a voice like a laser beam - focused, giving off a blaze
of overtones that made her sound as if inside your head, soft or loud. Her
tone was more attractive than Jones', and more evenly produced throughout
her entire range, if not as big sounding. In the rush to tout her high
notes, some forget that in the middle register, Nilsson was very lyrical -
and she had complete dynamic control throughout. It was always a magical
moment when she arrived, in the the opening monologue in Elektra, at "die
stunde," and took it in a mysterious piano voice, and then later in the
Orest recognition scene - her soft high notes were gorgeous, and extremely
effective in suggesting the vulnerability of an otherwise fearsome lady.
The same with Turandot, although I never felt that Nilsson portrayed
Turandot at the same depth as Isolde or Brunnhilde. Funny that you could
believe her to be vulnerable in the big German stuff, but in the Italian,
she was just too...fierce. She sang an admirable Tosca and Aida and Amelia,
but it was just not possible to believe that she would bend to the
circumstances that spell the downfall of those ladies. Her best Verdi, for
me, was the Requiem. But for Brunnhilde, Isolde, Elektra - no one after her
has sung them better, or longer.
wrote in message
news:f9cda782-826b-4f7e...@googlegroups.com...
alcindoro
Sep 27, 2012, 4:55:26 PM9/27/12
to
First off, let me just say I dislike the obsession with size of voice.
There are far too many variables
involved for anyone to claim so-and-so had the bigger voice, and it
reduces opera to a horse race.
But since you asked, here are some of my thoughts.
>Jones sounds even more massive than Birgit at the top of her voice.<
Nilsson complained about the way the Solti/Decca RING represents her
voice. She said
something to the effect that the recording process diminished and
"squeezed" her sound. The
Boehm/Bayreuth live RING has been said to represent more what she
sounded like in the
perspective of an actual opera house. I regret to say I never saw her
onstage.
Jones I did see several times at the Met, as Turandot, Elektra, Kundry
and Brunnhilde in the 90s. This
was late in the day for her and the voice was by that time, to put it
mildly, very idiosyncratically produced.
She had a habit of hitting a note with a straight tone and then adding
a pronounced vibrato, much like
a mature pop or jazz singer. I used to call her "the Liza Minnelli of
opera". I heard/saw her from orchestra,
first mezz, and family circle. Of those locations, the sound actually
sounded largest way upstairs, not
only the top, but the middle, which had notable carrying power.
Whether she sang well is another issue,
but she certainly threw herself into everything I saw of her. Her
Elektra was vocally wonky but a true
force of nature as a theatrical experience. So often what performer is
actually physically doing on stage
has a lot to do with our perception of what we hear.
There are far too many variables
involved for anyone to claim so-and-so had the bigger voice, and it
reduces opera to a horse race.
But since you asked, here are some of my thoughts.
>Jones sounds even more massive than Birgit at the top of her voice.<
voice. She said
something to the effect that the recording process diminished and
"squeezed" her sound. The
Boehm/Bayreuth live RING has been said to represent more what she
sounded like in the
perspective of an actual opera house. I regret to say I never saw her
onstage.
Jones I did see several times at the Met, as Turandot, Elektra, Kundry
and Brunnhilde in the 90s. This
was late in the day for her and the voice was by that time, to put it
mildly, very idiosyncratically produced.
She had a habit of hitting a note with a straight tone and then adding
a pronounced vibrato, much like
a mature pop or jazz singer. I used to call her "the Liza Minnelli of
opera". I heard/saw her from orchestra,
first mezz, and family circle. Of those locations, the sound actually
sounded largest way upstairs, not
only the top, but the middle, which had notable carrying power.
Whether she sang well is another issue,
but she certainly threw herself into everything I saw of her. Her
Elektra was vocally wonky but a true
force of nature as a theatrical experience. So often what performer is
actually physically doing on stage
has a lot to do with our perception of what we hear.
wagnerfan
Sep 27, 2012, 9:12:15 PM9/27/12
to
you referring to the incident Culshaw recalled when she heard test
pressings for the Gotterdammerung and flipped out at the way her her
voice sounded. Culshaw had no idea what she was talking about and
showed up at her apartment with his own set of test pressinsg and a
portable record player. When she heard how good her voice sounded on
that kind of setup - she realized that something had been wrong when
she initially heard the set. I dont recall ever reading any other
reservations she had about the sound of the recording.
She shouldn't since she sounds marvelous. Wagner fan
johnrsa...@live.com
Sep 27, 2012, 10:47:54 PM9/27/12
to
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 3:57:13 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> Has anyone on here heard both Jones and Nilsson live? Who had the bigger voice? Listening just on recordings Jones sounds even more massive than Birgit at the top of her voice. I was very lucky to have heard Jones in Kundry in Bayreuth in 1975 at her peak. Unfortunately I was 15 and didn't have the experience to know what I was experiencing. Also, although it was visually great to be sitting backstage to view the performance, I have a feeling you had to be towards the back of the house to get the full impact of her sound. My sister knew a singer that summer at Bayreuth and he got us special seats.
The" Liza Minnelli of opera" killed me! Exactly. On Youtube there is a Trovatore clip from 64 in which Jones displayed as perfect of a Verdi voice as I have ever heard. I would put it up there with Milanov and Price. It is a pity she didn't sing Verdi longer and postpone Wagner to age 40. Her Boulez Ring is astonishing!
> Has anyone on here heard both Jones and Nilsson live? Who had the bigger voice? Listening just on recordings Jones sounds even more massive than Birgit at the top of her voice. I was very lucky to have heard Jones in Kundry in Bayreuth in 1975 at her peak. Unfortunately I was 15 and didn't have the experience to know what I was experiencing. Also, although it was visually great to be sitting backstage to view the performance, I have a feeling you had to be towards the back of the house to get the full impact of her sound. My sister knew a singer that summer at Bayreuth and he got us special seats.
I would choose Nilsson any day over Gwyneth, but Jones would be in the top 5 favorite Wagner sopranos for sure.
wagnerfan
Sep 27, 2012, 10:58:14 PM9/27/12
to
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 19:47:54 -0700 (PDT), johnrsa...@live.com
wrote:
Jones early recordings (1960s show an absolutely gorgeous voice - a
little bottom heavy but still a full voiced soprano) - however there
was a vocal crisis that occured around 1970 which was heard in a slew
of recordings Lohengrin, Parsifal, Salome aan demostrated a voice in a
real mess - wobbly, pitch problems, a top that sounded like like a
shriek. Interestingly, the voice never sounded the same and she had
bad days and good days but the voice in that condition allied to a
striking dramatic presence remained a vaulable part of the opera world
for an incredibly long time
Wagner fan
wrote:
little bottom heavy but still a full voiced soprano) - however there
was a vocal crisis that occured around 1970 which was heard in a slew
of recordings Lohengrin, Parsifal, Salome aan demostrated a voice in a
real mess - wobbly, pitch problems, a top that sounded like like a
shriek. Interestingly, the voice never sounded the same and she had
bad days and good days but the voice in that condition allied to a
striking dramatic presence remained a vaulable part of the opera world
for an incredibly long time
Wagner fan
alcindoro
Sep 28, 2012, 9:33:41 AM9/28/12
to
On Sep 27, 9:12 pm, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>To clarify Nilssons remarks about her voice on the Decca Ring< etc.
I stand clarified. I didn't have my copy of Culshaw's "The Ring
Resounding'
at hand to refresh my memory.
>To clarify Nilssons remarks about her voice on the Decca Ring< etc.
I stand clarified. I didn't have my copy of Culshaw's "The Ring
Resounding'
at hand to refresh my memory.
gerberk
Sep 29, 2012, 9:09:56 AM9/29/12
to
NIlsson all the way the bigger voice
<johnrsa...@live.com> schreef in bericht
news:f9cda782-826b-4f7e...@googlegroups.com...
<johnrsa...@live.com> schreef in bericht
news:f9cda782-826b-4f7e...@googlegroups.com...
Operacentric
Sep 30, 2012, 5:45:32 AM9/30/12
to
I never heard Nilsson live. I did hear Jones at Bayreuth in 76. It
was a frustrating experience - the wobble was undeiable: almost like
listening to her 'wind up' to pitch. However, there were some
astonishing laser-beam like top notes that almost made up for the more
wobbly middle/lower top. Her presence was great.
I too heard the early Verdi postings - you'd almost not know it was the
same singer - and there's a pretty good video of DOn Carlos from Tokyo
lurking somewhere with Konya and Bruscantini.
--
operacentric, London
- spam deterrent : replace -NOSPAM in my sig to respond!
gggg...@gmail.com
Sep 19, 2019, 12:09:47 AM9/19/19
to
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/O3Z2_GHSKVs
ger...@home.nl
Oct 7, 2019, 5:20:22 AM10/7/19
to
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 at 12:57:13 PM UTC+2, Seattlejohn wrote:
> Has anyone on here heard both Jones and Nilsson live? Who had the bigger voice? Listening just on recordings Jones sounds even more massive than Birgit at the top of her voice. I was very lucky to have heard Jones in Kundry in Bayreuth in 1975 at her peak. Unfortunately I was 15 and didn't have the experience to know what I was experiencing. Also, although it was visually great to be sitting backstage to view the performance, I have a feeling you had to be towards the back of the house to get the full impact of her sound. My sister knew a singer that summer at Bayreuth and he got us special seats.
Strange
> Has anyone on here heard both Jones and Nilsson live? Who had the bigger voice? Listening just on recordings Jones sounds even more massive than Birgit at the top of her voice. I was very lucky to have heard Jones in Kundry in Bayreuth in 1975 at her peak. Unfortunately I was 15 and didn't have the experience to know what I was experiencing. Also, although it was visually great to be sitting backstage to view the performance, I have a feeling you had to be towards the back of the house to get the full impact of her sound. My sister knew a singer that summer at Bayreuth and he got us special seats.
gregory...@gmail.com
Oct 20, 2019, 7:13:49 PM10/20/19
to
On Thursday, September 27, 2012 at 3:57:13 AM UTC-7, Seattlejohn wrote:
> Has anyone on here heard both Jones and Nilsson live? Who had the bigger voice? Listening just on recordings Jones sounds even more massive than Birgit at the top of her voice. I was very lucky to have heard Jones in Kundry in Bayreuth in 1975 at her peak. Unfortunately I was 15 and didn't have the experience to know what I was experiencing. Also, although it was visually great to be sitting backstage to view the performance, I have a feeling you had to be towards the back of the house to get the full impact of her sound. My sister knew a singer that summer at Bayreuth and he got us special seats.
I heard both singers. Jones was a magnificent Leonore in FIDELIO, which I think was her second season at the Met (1972?). The voice was big and very attractive and she was an excellent actor. I didn't hear her Sieglinde and heard nothing more until her 90s work as a really lousy TURANDOT and ELEKTRA. I think I saw ELEKTRA twice. I have never understood why decibels thrill so many opera fans. In her case, she wobbled so badly with sharp pitches on high notes. I couldn't overlook this. A critic friend of mine from San Francisco who had adored Jones was appalled by her Isolde. Apparently Jones was truly stunned at the poor reviews she received. In reviews from Euro critics and especially the London critics, there seemed to be real disagreement about whether Jones had a wobble or not. When she sang Isolde at the Met, it was a critical failure. I seem to be the lone dissenter where her Brunnhilde from Bayreuth is concerned. I find it wobbly and loud. Ironically enough, her Marschallin video opposite Popp and Fassbaender shows the voice in lovely estate (the middle just glows).
> Has anyone on here heard both Jones and Nilsson live? Who had the bigger voice? Listening just on recordings Jones sounds even more massive than Birgit at the top of her voice. I was very lucky to have heard Jones in Kundry in Bayreuth in 1975 at her peak. Unfortunately I was 15 and didn't have the experience to know what I was experiencing. Also, although it was visually great to be sitting backstage to view the performance, I have a feeling you had to be towards the back of the house to get the full impact of her sound. My sister knew a singer that summer at Bayreuth and he got us special seats.
I first heard Nilsson at the Met about 12 years after her 1959 debut. ELEKTRA was the role, and she was very impressive. The voice sounded huge, especially on high. In 1972, I also heard her Isolde opposite Vickers (opening night). Act I was all I could have hoped for, but she was audibly tired for the rest of the performance. The voice remained big, thrusting and confident. Around the same time, I heard a Chicago Symphony Orchestra concert performance of SALOME where she was singing the title role. It was a great night for Nilsson--but subtle it wasn't. Solti refused to hold back the orchestra, and Nilsson, taking the bait, amped up the volume. Thankfully, it didn't affect her sound. The audience we crazy when it was over. There had been no loss of quality--and it was huge. There was a Sieglinde before she disappeared, opposite Rita Hunter's Brunnhilde. It was a good outing for Nilsson, though the voice was clearly not as beautiful. Then her tax issues took her out of the U.S. for too long. When she returned as Elektra some five years later, her age was catching up. She did well enough. The voice was still very audible, but not quite the big sound of five years earlier. Husbanding her resources in a canny performance, it was clear that Nilsson's voice was in decline. But the affection her public extended to her in the house was truly palpable. Nilsson may not have had quite the volume of a Gwyneth Jones, a Rysanek or Crespin, but she sang better than all of them for most of her career.
0 new messages