What is a musical snob?
REG
the negative side, I am sufficiently curious to ask what people mean when
they say someone (even themselves) is/are a musical snob. It's a great
insult, I guess, because you can't really define it, but I'm not sure I know
what people think it means, and I'm not entirely sure how I'd use it at this
point.
I wonder if it can be discussed without the typical pulling out of personal
'examples' - always, of course, from other people - but just in a general
way. I remember at one point when I was still reading geberk, she called me
a little bit of a snob because I said I didn't watch dvds, and I agreed,
although I'm not entirely sure why (I have other reasons for not watching
dvds, which is basically a lack of patience with sitting and doing one
thing).
So, I'd be curious to see any thinking here ther is on it.
Ken Meltzer
For me, I take this general definition:
"someone who looks down on people considered to have inferior knowledge
or tastes"
and apply it to music. For me, it's one thing to have opinions, and
even very strong ones, about what one likes and dislikes. It's quite
another thing to say that people who don't agree with those opinions
are stupid, deaf, lack sufficient musical background to form a
judgment, etc.
My sensitivity over this issue probably relates to the fact that for
the past 15 years or so, my job has been to try to encourage people to
listen to classical music. Musical snobs do nothing to help my cause.
Best,
Ken
LT
Ken Meltzer wrote:
> REG wrote:
> > Although I do this with great trepidation, knowing what it will lead to on
> > the negative side, I am sufficiently curious to ask what people mean when
> > they say someone (even themselves) is/are a musical snob. It's a great
> > insult, I guess, because you can't really define it, but I'm not sure I know
> > what people think it means, and I'm not entirely sure how I'd use it at this
> > point.
> >
> > I wonder if it can be discussed without the typical pulling out of personal
> > 'examples' - always, of course, from other people - but just in a general
> > way. I remember at one point when I was still reading geberk, she called me
> > a little bit of a snob because I said I didn't watch dvds, and I agreed,
> > although I'm not entirely sure why (I have other reasons for not watching
> > dvds, which is basically a lack of patience with sitting and doing one
> > thing).
> >
> > So, I'd be curious to see any thinking here ther is on it.
>
> For me, I take this general definition:
> "someone who looks down on people considered to have inferior knowledge
> or tastes"
> and apply it to music.
That is, indeed, the generally accepted/understood meaning, and will no
doubt continue to be.
>For me, it's one thing to have opinions, and
> even very strong ones, about what one likes and dislikes. It's quite
> another thing to say that people who don't agree with those opinions
> are stupid, deaf, lack sufficient musical background to form a
> judgment, etc.
It's that last assertion (the first two are more-obviously ad
hominems), that unfailingly devolves and wrecks what were meant to be
conversations for the sake of mutual pleasure and often, interesting
information.
> My sensitivity over this issue probably relates to the fact that for
> the past 15 years or so, my job has been to try to encourage people to
> listen to classical music. Musical snobs do nothing to help my cause.
Somehow, it doesn't really seem as though they intended to.
Their own "cause" amounts to nothing more than egotistical
self-puffery, somewhat defeated by the fact that several don't choose
to post under their actual names. So how are we to "admire" them, and
the "superior tastes" they so proudly claim?
Mrs T xx
Mrs T xx
REG
"Mrs T xx" <mrs.t...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1163163583.0...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
La Donna Mobile
inappropriate reasons. Dissing someone because they live in or come from
a poor area (in UK terms, a council estate, in US terms a project or
slum) is snobbish. Looking down on someone who behaves in a yobbish,
boorish or inconsiderate way is acceptable. And I think, doubly so if
they are proud of their yobbish, boorish or inconsiderate behaviour.
otherwise you are implying that there is no such thing as good or bad,
nice or nasty.
Musical snobs are people who value a piece or genre of music for
something other than its intrinsic value. And it's the same for food and
a whole host of other things. If I go to opera in order to be seen, or
because I think it makes me look sophisticated, I'm a snob. In fact, I'm
passionate about opera and have willingly been exposed to many types and
forms of pop and rock, and some other forms of music, so I'm not a snob,
but someone who has informed my judgment that opera is the most
satisfying *for me* and desperately wants to share that pleasure with
those that may be put off by their media-created perceptions of the
superficial social cache snobbishness. (But I can be snobby about other
matters).
The 'musical snob' accusations and counter-accusations here seem in some
part to be an attempt to say that 'I like' is the moral (?) equivalent
of 'recognised on fairly objective criteria to be great'.
I'm not sure whether it is pure snobbery/reverse snobbery or whether
it's an inability/refusal to see the other's point of view OR to
deconstruct the premise of debate.
In summary, it seems that liking something accessible and visceral is a
'lower' aesthetic than liking something that is complex. If the
implication is that the liker of the 'complex' is therefore a better
person, then that's snobby.
If the implication is - if you made the effort to explore the
complexities you would better appreciate it, and if you choose not to,
your opinion, except that 'it is complex', has no credence, that it
isn't snobby, but a justifiable dismissal of an uninformed irrelevancy.
Perhaps the accusations are also based on value judgments between
instant and delayed gratification. IMO, life is enhanced by both. I have
never been able to resist the gorgeous tunes in Rigoletto, and I found
that by repeated careful listening and viewing and making notes made Don
Carlo shoot up exponentially in my estimation. I'm not sure now which of
them is better...
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
leonora
La Donna Mobile wrote:
> I think a snob is someone who looks down on someone else for
> inappropriate reasons. Dissing someone because they live in or come from
> a poor area (in UK terms, a council estate, in US terms a project or
> slum) is snobbish. Looking down on someone who behaves in a yobbish,
> boorish or inconsiderate way is acceptable. And I think, doubly so if
> they are proud of their yobbish, boorish or inconsiderate behaviour.
> otherwise you are implying that there is no such thing as good or bad,
> nice or nasty.
>
Well, I have to say, DonnaMobile, that I am about to move to a council
estate, and I am ABSOLUTELY DELIGHTED that I no longer have to live in
privately rented accommodation, and share a bathroom. I will actually
have MY OWN BATHROOM, and not have to share ANYTHING with overseas
students any more! Can't wait.....
Although it is possible that my neighbours on the estate (which isn't a
massive, looming tower-block, but a small, purpose-built block of flats
with a GARDEN - that's something else I appreciate) MAY wonder what has
hit them when I arrive.....!!!
Leonora
donpaolo
"hearing-challenged" accusation. My very close friends, with whom I
attended performances during the glory days of the 60's & with whom I
continue to maintain colse contact, have used that harmless(now deemed
politically incorrect, by some edict) "accusation" in a spirit of mutual
regard & cameraderie (e.g., "What, you didn't hear that croaked note -
whaddya deaf?).
An example of snobbery occurs in a situation wherein someone with so-called
"credentials" almost orders another person to appreciate a piece of music
that just might be anathema to the listener's ears (e.g., a-tonal "music") &
if one does not comply, or bow to the "superior" knowledge, the recalcitrant
is accused of being a "redneck", or "anti"-intellectual; NOT a
"non"-intellectual, mind you, but "ANTI"-intellectual.
Well, Reggio mio, you did ask, nu?
Remember our veterans this w/end!
DonPaolo
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163161435.4...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
LT
donpaolo wrote:
> Overall, I agree with your "take", Ken. The notable exception is the
> "hearing-challenged" accusation. My very close friends, with whom I
> attended performances during the glory days of the 60's & with whom I
> continue to maintain colse contact, have used that harmless(now deemed
> politically incorrect, by some edict) "accusation" in a spirit of mutual
> regard & cameraderie (e.g., "What, you didn't hear that croaked note -
> whaddya deaf?).
>
> An example of snobbery occurs in a situation wherein someone with so-called
> "credentials" almost orders another person to appreciate a piece of music
> that just might be anathema to the listener's ears (e.g., a-tonal "music") &
> if one does not comply, or bow to the "superior" knowledge, the recalcitrant
> is accused of being a "redneck", or "anti"-intellectual; NOT a
> "non"-intellectual, mind you, but "ANTI"-intellectual.
As to the "redneck" accusation, it could be interpreted as a slur on
Native Americans, who'd have every right to resent it; There was an
"A(u)nti(e) Jenny®", in the halcyon days or yore..(a while
back..)....who marketed a well-known brand of prune juice, sorely
needed by such tight, petty accusers and their mean-spirited, woefully
unmusical sort.
Steve Silverman
"donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:7IWdnfmC9PKUO8nY...@rcn.net...
>
> An example of snobbery occurs in a situation wherein someone with
> so-called "credentials" almost orders another person to appreciate a piece
> of music that just might be anathema to the listener's ears (e.g., a-tonal
> "music") & if one does not comply, or bow to the "superior" knowledge, the
> recalcitrant is accused of being a "redneck", or "anti"-intellectual; NOT
> a "non"-intellectual, mind you, but "ANTI"-intellectual.
Being unable to enjoy or appreciate certain genres of music is nothing to be
ashamed of. Heaven knows there's enough music out that remains a closed book
to me. However, taking pride in that inability and publicly revelling in it
is another matter altogether. It's known as inverse snobbery. I see far more
of that here than the other kind.
Steve Silverman
capa0...@aol.com
> An example of snobbery occurs in a situation wherein someone with so-called
> "credentials" almost orders another person to appreciate a piece of music
> that just might be anathema to the listener's ears (e.g., a-tonal "music") &
> if one does not comply, or bow to the "superior" knowledge, the recalcitrant
> is accused of being a "redneck", or "anti"-intellectual; NOT a
> "non"-intellectual, mind you, but "ANTI"-intellectual.
==============
First of all, this is not directed personally against anyone; it's just
a general observation.
I think the problem arises, in this instance, because there is a
difference between saying "I am not a fan of atonal music" and
criticizing it.
I am not a particular fan of modern music either, but I rarely
criticize it because I know that I haven't really taken the time to
learn the idioms of such music. For me to criticize Schoenberg or
Webern or Berg would be like a ninth-grade student criticizing
"Macbeth" because the language is unfamiliar.
No one has the time to learn all there is to know about music or art or
literature. It's OK not to like something. But it's not so OK to
criticize an artform whose 'language' one has never made a serious
effort to understand.
And I don't think it's snobbery to decry the latter.
That's not to say, of course, that one cannot deplore a work's
inaccessibility. But many, many great works were considered
inaccessible or difficult or forgettable at one time or another, before
eventually finding favor. Bach and Van Gogh are two of the best-known
examples.
Pat
david...@aol.com
The original meaning of the word snob has been all but lost in common
parlance. Originally "snob" referred to someone whose taste was
feigned, a function of "putting on airs": a snob pretended to like
what he or she perceived those with greater social or intellectual
standing (or a better grasp of the cutting edge, etc.) to like. Now it
is most often (mis-)used to mean "elitist," in the sense of being
interested in the products of elite culture. You can be accused of
being a snob in this sense simply because you like opera. Of course,
fans of Italian opera don't consider themselves to be snobs, and some
fans of Italian opera will consider you a snob if you prefer German
Lieder or Beethoven's string quartets to Italian opera. The charge is
always leveled relative to where you stand.
One problem with this shift in meaning from "pretender" to
"elitist" is that the shift is never quite complete, and some
residue of the meaning of pretense still attaches to the word. Of
course, you're guilty in either case, whether guilty of pretending to
like the products of elite culture or guilty of liking the products of
elite culture. For many Americans living in this aggressively populist
culture of ours, this distinction is too subtle to matter.
Finally, there is Charlie's definition of a snob: a snob is anyone
Charlie dislikes with a vocabulary better than Charlie's.
-david gable
Mrs T xx
Steve Silverman wrote:
>> Being unable to enjoy or appreciate certain genres of music is nothing to be
> ashamed of. Heaven knows there's enough music out that remains a closed book
> to me. However, taking pride in that inability and publicly revelling in it
> is another matter altogether. It's known as inverse snobbery. I see far more
> of that here than the other kind.
>
> Steve Silverman
Does that include crossover? If so then I'm guilty as charged :-)
Mrs T xx
Steve Silverman
>
> Does that include crossover? If so then I'm guilty as charged :-)
It does, and you are. But then so am I. :-)
Off to Boheme at CG now.
Steve Silverman
LT
capa0...@aol.com wrote:
> > An example of snobbery occurs in a situation wherein someone with so-called
> > "credentials" almost orders another person to appreciate a piece of music
> > that just might be anathema to the listener's ears (e.g., a-tonal "music") &
> > if one does not comply, or bow to the "superior" knowledge, the recalcitrant
> > is accused of being a "redneck", or "anti"-intellectual; NOT a
> > "non"-intellectual, mind you, but "ANTI"-intellectual.
>
> ==============
>
> First of all, this is not directed personally against anyone; it's just
> a general observation.
>
> I think the problem arises, in this instance, because there is a
> difference between saying "I am not a fan of atonal music" and
> criticizing it.
>
> I am not a particular fan of modern music either, but I rarely
> criticize it because I know that I haven't really taken the time to
> learn the idioms of such music. For me to criticize Schoenberg or
> Webern or Berg would be like a ninth-grade student criticizing
> "Macbeth" because the language is unfamiliar.
>
> No one has the time to learn all there is to know about music or art or
> literature. It's OK not to like something. But it's not so OK to
> criticize an artform whose 'language' one has never made a serious
> effort to understand.
Actually, it is so OK, since from an individual's viewpoint, his
perception, vis a vis his understanding at any given time, is valid -
to him; - unless, of course, he's insensitively trying to impose *his*
views upon *others*, - as admittedly does occur not infrequently.
> And I don't think it's snobbery to decry the latter.
Of course you'd say that, since it's your MO.
Why "decry" at all, really, other than to raise an unneeded and silly
fuss, as you tend to do?
De gustibus.... -the bottom line....
LT
LT
You see, it's this sort of inaccurate namecalling, chip-on-shoulder
attidute on your part, that fosters and perpetuates contumely, as well
as verbal atonality and conversational disharmony, as it were.
Why not reconsider it - intellectually?
LT
david...@aol.com wrote:
> Don Paolo, the paranoid with a chip on his shoulder the size of Mt.
> Rushmore, wrote some stupid paranoid nonsense about the concept of the
> "anti-intellectual." You are not anti-intellectual simply because you
> have no interest in, say, the late Beethoven quartets or Wozzeck. You
> are anti-intellectual when you make stupid defensive anti-intellectual
> remarks about things you don't understand, as Don Paolo routinely does
> in the case of Wozzeck. Don Paolo is a classic example of the
> anti-intellectual attitude, and an anti-intellectual attitude is far
> more destructive than snobbery.
>
> -david gable
LT
david...@aol.com wrote:
> The original meaning of the word snob has been all but lost in common
> parlance. Originally "snob" referred to someone whose taste was
> feigned, a function of "putting on airs": a snob pretended to like
> what he or she perceived those with greater social or intellectual
> standing (or a better grasp of the cutting edge, etc.) to like. Now it
> is most often (mis-)used to mean "elitist," in the sense of being
> interested in the products of elite culture.
The original use is insignificant, since it's the current use (mis- or
not) that matters, at this point.
> You can be accused of
> being a snob in this sense simply because you like opera. Of course,
> fans of Italian opera don't consider themselves to be snobs, and some
> fans of Italian opera will consider you a snob if you prefer German
> Lieder or Beethoven's string quartets to Italian opera. The charge is
> always leveled relative to where you stand.
Of course.
LT
La Donna Mobile
I get a surprising number of people who assume that because I say I live
in Brixton I must live in a hovel and and am generally inferior to the
snobs who live in Clapham (although bizarrely I seem to find myself
living in Clapham Park even though I have a Brixton/Streatham postcode
and live in Brixton Hill ward). It really matters to some people.
I often wonder if taxi drivers would like me more if I asked for Clapham
Park rather than Brixton Hill. And I'm thinking of seeing if I can
change my postcode from SW2 to SW4. I might just do it anyway; okay, my
post won't get delivered, but that's a small price to pay for social
status. Just as long as they don't turn me into SW12 /shudders/.
And I don't generally admit I live in Zone 3 because my usual bus stop
is Zone 2, and Zone 2 is cooler than the suburbia of Zone 3. Plus my
phone number is an 020 8 number, and quarter of a mile up the road is
the more desirable 020 7, so perhaps if I start telling people I am
actually 020 7, it might make me look better. It will certainly cut down
on junk phone calls. Okay, other ones too, but /shrug/.
At least I live inside the South Circular. When I lived outside it,
someone told me that that wasn't living, it was just existing...
Little Jimmy Olsen
<capa0...@aol.com> wrote
> That's not to say, of course, that one cannot deplore a work's
> inaccessibility. But many, many great works were considered
> inaccessible or difficult or forgettable at one time or another, before
> eventually finding favor. Bach and Van Gogh are two of the best-known
> examples.
>
>
> Pat
>
It takes a certain kind of ear to appreciate Vincent.
LJO, potato eater
capa0...@aol.com
Little Jimmy Olsen wrote:
> <capa0...@aol.com> wrote
Bach and Van Gogh are two of the best-known
> > examples.
> >
> >
> > Pat
> >
>
> It takes a certain kind of ear to appreciate Vincent.
>
> LJO, potato eater
Jimmy, I think all of us Arles agreed that that's a Theoable joke.
Pat
Charlie
>
> So, I'd be curious to see any thinking here ther is on it.
A Musical snob:
1. Talks DOWN to others who may not like what he or she likes.
2. Thinks everyone else must be "encyclopedic" about music.
3. Prefers Aksel Schiotz to Giacomo Lauri--Volpi
4. Would never admit to liking Adriana Lecouvreur or La Gioconda
5. Thinks schmalzy music is only for peasants.
6. Never heard of Lina Bruna Rasa
7. Would rather listen to Bach Cantatas than have sex.
8. Only likes the "other' Corelli.
so there....CH
gerberk
You still are one of the best in here
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:g5_4h.12751$tb6....@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
Silverfin
Steve Silverman wrote:
> Being unable to enjoy or appreciate certain genres of music is nothing to be
> ashamed of. Heaven knows there's enough music out that remains a closed book
> to me. However, taking pride in that inability and publicly revelling in it
> is another matter altogether. It's known as inverse snobbery. I see far more
> of that here than the other kind.
>
Yes, I also encounter this sort more often.
I find it pretty irritating, especially so when they assume that
everyone shares their opinions.
Silverfin
Silverfin
Charlie wrote:
> >
> > So, I'd be curious to see any thinking here ther is on it.
>
>
> A Musical snob:
>
>
Damn - really thought I was going to get through this whole thread
without being accused of snobbery by someone...
No, I've never heard of him/her/it. I can go and look it up for myself,
but first please explain what it has to do with being a snob. Or not,
as the case may be.
Silverfin
gerberk
"Little Jimmy Olsen" <seniorcu...@earthlink.net> schreef in bericht
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gerberk
of the bull
"gerberk" <ger...@home.nl> schreef in bericht
news:ej2neb$bj7$1...@news3.zwoll1.ov.home.nl...
gerberk
lust for life
The people of Arles were right to throw him out
But what a painter he was
"gerberk" <ger...@home.nl> schreef in bericht
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gerberk
Nowadays I spent my time reading all i can get about ancient Sparta
That is were Rumsfeld comes in
"gerberk" <ger...@home.nl> schreef in bericht
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donpaolo
especially farming or raisilg livestock. The sun would beat upon them while
bent over toiling, doing "honest" work. Hence, "red necks"{. Maybe not the
most complex people, but necessary & performing tasks so we can all survive!
DonPaolo
"LT" <leonardti...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163176044.7...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
donpaolo
ears/tastes? It simply gives me a headache, makes me nauseous, I therefore
cannot stand it, although I have, indeed, given the genre a try - several
tries......period!
DonPaolo
"LT" <leonardti...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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donpaolo
DonPaolo
"Little Jimmy Olsen" <seniorcu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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donpaolo
cliche-hurling, SNOB...BTW - KISS MY ASS!
DonPaolo
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
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donpaolo
DonP.
"Charlie" <Plac...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163187134.1...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
donpaolo
Italian "hair under the armpit" sopranos, whom I guess the "snobs" would
dismiss as "provincial". However, she, along with the likes of Caterina
Mancini& others, were damned exciting to hear. She was noted for her Marie
in Wozzzzzeck, I believe....
DonPaolo
"Silverfin" <silve...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1163190524....@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
gerberk
piano teacher who i love to hear playing that piano and if she plays well it
makes me cry
so dont do that to me ok
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
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> Although I do this with great trepidation, knowing what it will lead to on
> the negative side, I am sufficiently curious to ask what people mean when
> they say someone (even themselves) is/are a musical snob. It's a great
> insult, I guess, because you can't really define it, but I'm not sure I
> know what people think it means, and I'm not entirely sure how I'd use it
> at this point.
>
> I wonder if it can be discussed without the typical pulling out of
> personal 'examples' - always, of course, from other people - but just in a
> general way. I remember at one point when I was still reading geberk, she
> called me a little bit of a snob because I said I didn't watch dvds, and I
> agreed, although I'm not entirely sure why (I have other reasons for not
> watching dvds, which is basically a lack of patience with sitting and
> doing one thing).
>
Little Jimmy Olsen
<capa0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163185966.0...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Friends, Romans and countrymen, lend me your ears. But seriously, it reminds
me of an opera by David Lang called "Anatomy Theater" which is about the
former practice of publicly dissecting dead bodies. Here is how he describes
it:
"Anatomy Theater is about the human body - its inside, to be specific. In
fact, Anatomy Theater questions the history of a kind of human meaning: what
is the historic relationship between the spiritual and the physical
interiors of a person? Before science the physical body was seen as the
manifestation of the spiritual. The scientific dissection of people is a
relatively recent phenomenon, but the insides of people have been examined
for other purposes throughout history. For example, in certain parts of
pre-modern Europe traveling specialists would tour from town to town and
produce a kind of moral spectacle, in which the corpses of executed
criminals would be dissected in front of a paying audience, with food and
drink served and musicians playing. These were not scientific events, but
spiritual carnivals, in which evidence of corruption was sought and
uncovered in the interiors of the human body. These were essentially joyous
affairs - a bit grisly but suffused with a bourgeois sense of complacence
and order. The dissections were essentially voyeuristic - they are more
about reinforcing the social differences between the audience and the
criminal than they are about the pursuit of any kind of useful knowledge.
They also contain the notion that the struggle between good and evil would
have its results written within the human body. This is a very beautiful
idea.
Anatomy Theater is our own version of such a spiritual carnival. We propose
to create a moral dissection, with images of bodies and environments
projected on scrims, 3 singers - a lecturer, a demonstrator, and the corpse
itself - 3 musicians and a text drawn from surviving documents and
contemporary moral tracts."
Whether that opera has ever been performed I cannot tell you.
But speaking of David Lang, he also wrote an opera called "Modern Painters"
which is based on the life of the art critic John Ruskin. This opera has
been performed I think, but I am completely unfamiliar with it. In any case
it has nothing to do with Vincent.
"Are there any mainstream operas with painters in them?", I hear you
wondering. Well, Cavaradossi and Marcello spring to mind -- waddle in,
actually. And there is a painter in "Lulu", Matthias Grünewald is in "Mathis
der Maler", Benvenuto Cellini in "Benvenuto Cellini". I'm sure there are
some more.
david...@aol.com
donpaolo wrote:
> What is so "wrong" with criticizing something that is anathema to one's
> ears/tastes?
You don't seem to know the difference between "criticism" and
complaining about a work of art the way a 5-year-old complains about
the taste of Brussels sprouts. One trouble with criticism is that it
is of no interest unless the criticism is done from a position of
understanding. Criticism from the point of view of incomprehension is
of no interest. The fact that Wozzeck gives Don Paolo a headache is no
more interesting than the fact that the kind of singing done by opera
singers strikes many people as absurd and annoying . . . or the fact
that many people consider opera ridiculous without knowing anything
about it.
I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with incomprehension.
Nobody could possibly understand more than a very tiny corner of this
vast universe. I don't have the least understanding of string theory,
to name but one of the literally countless areas of my total
incompetence. But it would be ludicrous for me to attend a play in
Chinese and blame the Chinese language for my failure to speak it.
-david gable
donpaolo
superficial chance, the person still dislikes it, then he/she should be
subject to being called anti-intellectual, paranoid & accused of having a
chip on his/her shoulder....I see, that really makes loads of sense. You
must be quite a rotten perfresser - you give good grades to only those
students who agree with you? If ANYone has a shoulder chip or can wear the
paranoid arrogant snob designation, it's YOU, Gable.
Gotta run - listening to the RCA Gioconda, then Chenier, maybe for dessert
Adriana L. - that OK by you, Gable?
DonPaolo
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163199436.1...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Charlie
donpaolo wrote:
> Just check out the Cetra Series. Lina Bruna Rasa was one of the WW II
> Italian "hair under the armpit" sopranos, whom I guess the "snobs" would
> dismiss as "provincial". However, she, along with the likes of Caterina
> Mancini& others, were damned exciting to hear. She was noted for her Marie
> in Wozzzzzeck, I believe....
>
> >>> >
HJER WHOLE VOICE IS CHEST..NO CURSE IN CAV is an insane..I hear she
ended up in a loony bin..once jumped off the stage into the drum....a
rumor...CH
andre35
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163177220.6...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Don Paolo is a classic example of the anti-intellectual attitude, and an
> anti-intellectual attitude > is far more destructive than snobbery.
>
> -david gable
>
politically incorrect, to one's musical background.
To call anti-intellectualism "more destructive" makes one ask;
a. destructive to what?
b. to who, you?
The case you paint with a broad brush is simply a matter of your ox
being gored, in a manner you resent, as I see it.
If you find DP's comments on Wozzeck offensive, by all means call them
so, but the broad accusation of anti-intellectualism is not only overkill,
but wrong, in my opinion.
St. André ~ Committeee of Public Safety
REG
an intellectual, but only an academic.
It's not clear to me that you understand the difference.
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163177220.6...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Don Paolo, the paranoid with a chip on his shoulder the size of Mt.
> Rushmore, wrote some stupid paranoid nonsense about the concept of the
> "anti-intellectual." You are not anti-intellectual simply because you
> have no interest in, say, the late Beethoven quartets or Wozzeck. You
> are anti-intellectual when you make stupid defensive anti-intellectual
> remarks about things you don't understand, as Don Paolo routinely does
> in the case of Wozzeck. Don Paolo is a classic example of the
REG
set of Cavalleria, with Gigli and with the composer conducting. It is VERY
slow, but she's immediacy-of-the-musical-moment personified. There's
actually a live performance with her which I think is even more riveting,
and if it's at all accessible I'd recommend that first. She did some other
stuff, but slowly deteriorated mentally (not quickly enough to have ever
been a member of rmo, I don't think). Obviously some kind of schizophrenic
process was going on with her, and I believe that she was first hospitalized
when she became acutely confused on stage during a performance and jumped
into the orchestra pit - no jokes please. She had a few remissions, when
she'd come out of the hospital and do a few performances and then be
recommited, but generally it was a downhill slide.
"Silverfin" <silve...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1163190524....@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
REG
I've snipped the part where David couldn't help himself from bringing in
Charlie.
For me, a snob I think is someone who pretends to like something they really
don't, so as to be seen as keepin up with the Joneses. A reverse snob, I
guess, would be someone who liked, say, Bocelli, but was afraid to
acknowledge it.
So far, that's the most satisfying definition for me.
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163176818.4...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> The original meaning of the word snob has been all but lost in common
> parlance. Originally "snob" referred to someone whose taste was
> feigned, a function of "putting on airs": a snob pretended to like
> what he or she perceived those with greater social or intellectual
> standing (or a better grasp of the cutting edge, etc.) to like.>
La Donna Mobile
life especially circa WWII,with immense talent and an insufferable
mental health affliction. I'm scratching the recesses of my memory, but
wasn't there a Mascagni Premier in 194X and she was released from
psychiatric hospital and it all ended up a massive and desperately sad farce
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
REG
hospital some time much later and her (LBR) being totally vacant, which is
kind of what you'd expect with that kind of process going on.
I think there might be a Chenier with her, but am not sure.
"La Donna Mobile" <enidl...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:lYOdnZGRbfq...@bt.com...
alanwa...@aol.com
La Donna Mobile wrote:
> Isn't she the one who was Mascagni's favourite and had a desperately sad
> life especially circa WWII,with immense talent and an insufferable
> mental health affliction. I'm scratching the recesses of my memory, but
> wasn't there a Mascagni Premier in 194X and she was released from
> psychiatric hospital and it all ended up a massive and desperately sad farce
>
> REG wrote:
> > HER you really have to hear. She is most easily available on the commercial
> > set of Cavalleria, with Gigli and with the composer conducting. It is VERY
> > slow, but she's immediacy-of-the-musical-moment personified. There's
> > actually a live performance with her which I think is even more riveting,
> > and if it's at all accessible I'd recommend that first. She did some other
> > stuff, but slowly deteriorated mentally (not quickly enough to have ever
> > been a member of rmo, I don't think). Obviously some kind of schizophrenic
> > process was going on with her, and I believe that she was first hospitalized
> > when she became acutely confused on stage during a performance and jumped
> > into the orchestra pit - no jokes please. She had a few remissions, when
> > she'd come out of the hospital and do a few performances and then be
> > recommited, but generally it was a downhill slide.
> >
> http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
She is a VERY suitable candidate for people to take the piss out of on
this group, however.
"On a chilly October day in 1984, a few lonely mourners followed a
simple casket to a grave in Milan. They remembered a woman who had
lived in seclusion, incarcerated in a mental institution for nearly
forty years. They were indeed few, and they wept. They had known her
when her name meant "verismo" to an adoring world, and they had
been faithful to the end. They remembered to visit from time to time,
and, on occasion they took her for short automobile trips, so that she,
too, might remember . They said that she did remember and that she
enjoyed those brief moments of freedom. They said that she smiled
though she did not speak. Hers is an extraordinary story!
Lina Bruna Rasa was born on 24 Sept 1907 in Padua, Italy (Padova) and
began musical studies at the age of fourteen. It was very apparent from
the beginning that she was a dramatic soprano and that her instincts as
an actress would play a major role in her stage development. So
impressed were her teachers, that she was persuaded to make an
unscheduled debut at Venice's Teatro La Fenice on 20 May 1925,
singing "Suicidio" from La Gioconda. Lina was seventeen years old!
She finished her studies during the summer of 1925, and before the year
was out made her opera debut at Genoa's Teatro Politeama as Elena in
Mefistofele with Maria Zamboni, Giulio Rotondi and Ezio Pinza. The
reviews were tremendous and the director of Turin's Teatro Regio
offered Lina a contract for ten performances in Mefistofele with Rosina
Torri, Aureliano Pertile and Nazzareno De Angelis under the baton of
Gino Marinuzzi. She debuted at the Regio on 21 February, 1926, and,
with these performances, her reputation and career were assured. The
revival was a most impressive success, but it was the unknown Lina who
walked away with the headlines. The city of Treviso engaged her for
seven additional performances of the opera in April and later in the
year she sang Amelia in Un Ballo in Maschera at Reggio Emilia. The
priest/composer, Refice, unveiled his opera/oratorio Trittico
Francescano at Assisi in October with Lina in the role of St. Clare.
She veritably swooned with religious passion during several of the
episodes, and Refice declared her to have been greater, in every way,
than he might ever have expected.
Milan's Dal Verme presented her in Mefistofele at year's end, and
on 6 January 1927 she debuted at Cairo's Teatro Reale as Elena. On
the 24th, she sang Aida for the first time and in February she sang in
Butti's Omonizia. Her stay in Egypt continued until well into April
with a long visit to Alexandria after which she traveled to Lausanne
for her first performances of Cavalleria Rusticana as well as her debut
in Il Trovatore. At Reggio Emilia, Lina repeated the role of the saint
from Assisi, with Refice on the podium, and in September she appeared
as the Trovatore Leonora at Carpi. After a debut at Piacenza in Il
Trovatore, on 16 November she debuted at La Scala in Mefistofele with
Giuseppina Cobelli, Pertile and Tancredi Pasero under Toscanini's
direction. Lina's ovations were endless, and Toscanini, pen and
contract in hand, received her commitment to an extended stay at Milan
during the following spring.
After performances of Cavalleria Rusticana at Bari, Lina debuted at
Trieste's Teatro Verdi in Smareglia's I Pittori Fiamminghi, and at
Piacenza she sang Maddalena di Coigny for the first time on 28 February
1928. On 17 April she returned to La Scala for two performances as
Dolly in Sly with Pertile, and on the 6th of May she sang in Andrea
Chenier with Pertile and Carlo Galeffi. At the conclusion of "Vicino
a te", during the musical postlude, the applause built to a crescendo
so great that Ettore Panizza seemed to be conducing air. The next
day's newspapers reported that the orchestra could not be heard.
Mascagni and Lina met for the first time at Venice on 19 July when he
conducted her in Cavalleria Rusticana in the Piazza San Marco before
some forty thousand people. The chemistry was immediate and he
prevailed upon her to learn Isabeau for an upcoming revival at his home
theater, the Goldoni of Livorno. On 18 August she attempted the role
and was a failure; so poorly did she sing, in fact, that she was
replaced immediately by Tina Poli Randaccio. However, Mascagni decided
that his hometown should have an opportunity to see Lina at her best,
and he replaced Isabeau with Cavalleria Rusticana at later
performances. Her success was enormous and she was rushed to Bergamo,
where, at the Teatro Donizetti, she debuted as Santuzza on 30 August
with Galliano Masini and Domenico Viglione Borghese. Four scheduled
performances became six. The legend had begun!
After a sensational Tosca at Forli with Pertile and Giovanni
Inghilleri, Lina returned to La Scala for additional performances of
Sly and a new opera La Maddalena in which she used her prodigious
histrionic talents to the fullest, according to contemporary reviews.
In January 1929 she opened the Palais de la Mediterannee at Nice as La
Gioconda and later in the month sang Margherita in Mefistofele for the
only times in her career in a cast that included Gina Cigna as Elena
and Pertile as Faust. The spring found her back at La Scala for
Rimsky-Korsakov's Tsar Saltan and Franchetti's Germania, after
which she departed for South America. Lina debuted at the Buenos Aires
Teatro Colon on 14 June in Andrea Chenier with Georges Thill and Apollo
Granforte and later sang in Tosca, Cavalleria Rusticana and in the
South American premiere of Respighi's Compana Sommersa. She and
Granforte visited Rosario with Tosca and in late August, at Montevideo,
she sang in Chenier with Thill and Granforte and in Tosca with Pedro
Mirassou and Granforte. Her reviews were extraordinary and audiences
were enormously responsive but Lina's debut season was to be her
farewell season, as well. She never again appeared in South America, or
anywhere in the Western Hemisphere.
In the autumn she appeared at Bologna as Desdemona with Renato Zanelli,
and in Compana Sommersa with which she also opened the La Scala season
on 7 December. In January 1930 she sang Venus to the Elizabeth of Gina
Cigna and the Tannhauser of Antonio Melandri and in March she sang in
Guglielmo Tell with Giacomo Lauri Volpi, Benvenuto Franci and Pasero.
She again brought audiences to their feet in Andrea Chenier and she
ended her Milan season with Vittadini's La Sagredo. In May Lina
debuted at Zurich with Tosca and in September she sang in Otello at
Bari's Teatro Petruzzelli with Zanelli. In October Lina returned to
Livorno where, at the Terrazza Mascagni, under the composer's
direction, she sang in Zanetto with Gianna Pederzini. The year ended at
La Scala as Loreley with Francesco Merli and Carlo Tagliabue.
1931 presented several debuts for Lina, Cavalleria Rusticana at
Genoa's Teatro Carlo Felice, Il Trovatore at Monte Carlo and
Guglielmo Tell with Merli and Franci at the Verona Arena. She also
returned to La Scala for Cavalleria Rusticana, to Bergamo for Tosca
with Alessandro Ziliani and Luigi Rossi-Morelli, and to Bologna for La
Wally with Melandri and Armando Borgioli. Lina Bruna Rasa had risen to
the very top of Italy's operatic ladder and she had every reason to
be happy. But, late in 1931 an acute depression began to manifest
itself , and there were several evenings when she failed to appear for
scheduled performances. Rome and Naples, Italy's second and third
theaters, refused to hire Lina, though many entreaties were made, and
some of the other large theaters backed off from making commitments.
In 1932, La Scala presented Lina only as Santuzza. Palermo presented
her in La Forza del Destin" in March; Florence's Communale invited
her to appear as Elena during the Maggio Musicale, and the Verona Arena
mounted a stellar revival of L'Africaine" with Margherita Carosio,
Gigli and Armando Borgioli in August. Lina also sang in several of
Italy's provincial theaters including Aida at Pola and Tosca at
Parma's Teatro Reinach, but it was Mascagni who would step into a
difficult situation and salvage the better part of her year, and
ultimately, the rest of Lina's career. He arranged contracts at Como
for Isabeau and at Brescia, Novara and Pisa for Cavalleria Rusticana.
The performances at Pisa were particularly wrenching for Lina and she
suffered severe panic attacks when Mascagni turned over the baton to
Maestro Benvenuti Giusti for the third performance. It was all she
could do to complete the evening.
In 1933 she debuted at Parma's Regio as Aida and in February she
portrayed the Ethiopian princess to great acclaim at Barcelona's
Liceo. Mascagni again received the call, and in April he presented her
at the Casino of San Remo as Santuzza in what was billed as a gala
performance in their honor. Lina was happy in his presence and the
performance was a complete triumph. In the summer she sang in Andrea
Chenier and Selvaggi's Maggiolata Veneziana for Italian Radio, in
Ballo in Maschera at Ancona with Pertile and in Aida at Carpi. It was
during these performances that her colleagues first began to notice
serious problems. Giovanni Breviario, in his autobiographical sketches,
stated that, "she was already manifesting the symptoms of mental
illness that would finally overtake her". The year ended with eight
performances of Cavalleria Rusticana for Italian radio, four each at
Turin and at Rome, all under Mascagni's direction. They were relayed
to radio stations throughout Italy and were extraordinarily successful.
In the annals of Italian Radio, there is no other revival that
approached eight performances.
Lina continued to be coached and coaxed by Mascagni , and in 1934 she
appeared in Isabeau at Piacenza and Novara as well as in a recorded
performance for Italian Radio with Mascagni on the podium. After a two
year absence she sang at La Scala in May, appearing as Elena with
Caniglia, Galliano Masini and Pinza,and in June she sang Fedora for
Italian Radio. At the end of the month Lina made her German debut at
Frankfurt as Tosca with Nino Piccaluga and Mariano Stabile. In August
Lina traveled with Mascagni to the small Sicilian town of Noto for a
memorable revival of Cavalleria Rusticana. Masini, who was there for
Andrea Chenier with Pampanini and Granforte, recalled that it was a
truly mesmerizing operatic experience and that Mascagni was excited in
a touchingly childlike way at their success. Masini, like Mascagni, was
from Livorno, and they were lifelong friends. Lina then performed Tosca
at Bari with Angelo Minghetti and Giuseppe Danise.
Shortly after the company left Sicily, Mascagni devoted his full
attention to the world premiere of Nerone which he fully expected to be
presented at Rome's Coliseum. The plan fell through, and after long
negotiations with Mussolini, who wanted to stage the opening in Rome,
it was scheduled for La Scala in January of 1935. Mascagni again went
to the well and chose Lina as the prima donna of his new work, a risk
which paid off handsomely as she was generously praised by all of
Milan's critics the day after the premiere. The rest of the cast,
Carosio, Pertile, Granforte and Pasero were equally lauded, and though
the opera failed to gain a foothold in the repertory, it was enormously
popular in its first season and in its subsequent premieres at Livorno,
Bologna, Genoa, Rome, Naples and Zurich. Lina was in high spirits after
her triumph and shortly thereafter appeared in La Forza del Destino at
the Carlo Felice with Gigli and De Angelis. In April she returned to
Livorno for Tosca with Luigi Marletta and Granforte and in June she
recorded the role of Venus for Italian Radio with Maria Pedrini,
Melandri and Tagliabue. The ever faithful and adoring Verona public saw
her as Santuzza at the Arena in July and in October, she recorded La
Sagredo for Italian Radio.
Lina's mother died in 1935, and after a period of mourning, Lina
attempted a return to the stage, but her attachment to her "anchor"
was so complete that she completely collapsed. She cancelled all
performances of Nerone at Genoa in January of 1936 and no amount of
persuasion from Mascagni and others could convince her to attempt
appearances. In February she felt well enough to sing Elena at La Scala
with Caniglia, Pertile and Pasero, but following those few performances
Lina disappeared for nearly six months. She despaired of ever singing
again and expressed enormous fears about her abilities. Her colleagues
were incredibly kind and encouraging, and she finally found the
strength to appear at Milan's Giardini Pubblici in August as Santuzza
and Tosca, and with Mascagni's continuous solicitation, appeared with
him at Livorno in late August as Santuzza. The audience, many of whom
were aware of Lina's fragility, rewarded her with stomping, standing
ovations at each of the four performances, and, after further
persuasion she debuted to tumultuous applause in Nerone at Rome's
Teatro Reale in December. The strain of such intense concentration was
more than Lina could bear, despite her success, and she refused to
honor her commitment to debut at Naples' San Carlo in the role later
in the season. Fidelia Campigna, who had replaced her in one
performance at Scala and for the whole Genoa engagement, was called to
the rescue again.
Mascagni convinced Lina to sing Santuzza with him at Monte Carlo on 1
April, but she found herself unable to sing in Nerone at Scala when it
was reprised ten days later. She was now weaving in and out of her
private world, and in June, she felt well enough to travel with
Mascagni to Zurich for the last two staged performances of Nerone ever
given.
On 26 June, 1937 at the Casa del Fascio in Castel San Giovanni, Lina
sang a performance of Tosca for an invited assemblage of Fascist
dignitaries (fascio meaning Fascist headquarters, among other things).
The story is told that at the conclusion of "Vissi d'arte", she
received an enormous ovation, and, as she raised herself from the
floor, Lina reached into her cleavage and slowly revealed an Italian
flag which she held aloft with both arms outstretched. The ovation was,
of course, monumental.
July and August were occupied with a tour of eight Italian towns as
Santuzza, during which she seemed to be in a trance most of the time.
Commentators referred repeatedly to the incredible intensity of her
performances and of the total passivity with which she went through her
daily routine. At Milan's Castello Sforzesco and at Genoa's
Politeama she was hailed as a genius when she repeated Cavalleria , and
in late September she appeared with Italian Radio as Isabeau. To this
day, the story of her attempted suicide by throwing herself into the
orchestra pit during a performance of Cavalleria , persists. And, it is
always placed during 1937. Perhaps it was!
After another long absence, Lina appeared as Santuzza in the winter of
1938 at Cremona's Teatro Ponchielli. Lina Pagliughi attended the
first performance - "Lina Bruna Rasa! I still tremble when I think of
her Santuzza". She continued to appear very sporadically in
Cavalleria and on 1 August, before some 15000 people Mascagni presented
her at Rome's Caracalla in Isabeau with Nino Bertelli and Granforte.
It was a complete triumph and she returned five nights later for a
second performance. A few days later at the Castello Sforzesco Lina
sang Tosca with Giuseppe Lugo and Viglione-Borghese. In November she
traveled to the Netherlands in a special train compartment with
Mascagni for Cavalleria Rusticana at The Hague. The trip had been
planned for months and it was uncertain until Lina was actually on the
train, that it would become an event. The performance is preserved on
recording and gives us the sense of her enormous commitment and
intensity. Antonio Melandri was her Turiddu.
1939 began with two remarkable events in Lina's pathetically anemic
career. On 1 Feb she made her opera debut at Venice's La Fenice as
Tosca, and two weeks later she debuted as the Puccini heroine at
Naples"Teatro San Carlo. Lina was triumphant at Venice where she
seemed in total command, but she was less successful with the
Neapolitans, despite her intuitive intensity. In September, she
returned to Bergamo for Elena with Olivero, Giovanni Malipiero and
Pasero.
In 1940, in honor of the fiftieth anniversary of Cavalleria
Rusticana's premiere, Mascagni and Lina undertook a tour to Venice,
Rome, Trieste, Genoa, Milan's Scala, Naples, Florence and Livorno.
Among her colleagues were Gigli, Masini, Ziliani, Bechi, Granforte and
Tagliabue and every performance was sold out weeks in advance. The
famous recording with Gigli was made during their stay in Milan and it
tells us exactly what Lina was all about in this role. One cannot help
but be amazed at the conviction and integrity of her performance. The
voice has a vibrancy that is almost unbearable. She appeared with
several other conductors in a number of Italy's provincial opera
centers in celebration of the anniversary, and at each theater she was
hailed as a national heroine. But, it was over!
She continued to sing occasionally in Tosca and in Cavalleria Rusticana
until the middle of 1942, but only in very small theaters with little
known casts. On occasion Mascagni would send a limousine to pick her up
and return her to her hotel, so uncertain was it that she would even be
able to find her way. Giovanni Breviario recalled a performance at
Lecco in 1941 - "The poor thing was already in a very bad state, but
her marvelous voice came to life as soon as she began her scenes. This
miracle happened only on stage. We were all very affectionate toward
her, but when not on the stage, she was passive, apathetic, would not
speak and remained doggedly clinging to her handbag".
In July 1942, while Lina was resting at Pesaro's Lido, she was
persuaded to sing a performance of Cavalleria at their outdoor arena,
and on the 20th, she gave her last performance in a staged opera. The
reviewer of "L'Adriatico" kindly stated that it was a vivid
recollection of a great artist.
Lina was sporadically institutionalized at a home near Milan, and by
1948, it was felt that she was well enough that she might sing some
concerts. She very much wished to return to the stage and on 27 July
she sang at Busto Arzisio. Arturo Toscanini traveled to hear his
beloved Lina and left the theater with tears streaming down his face.
The tour was terminated a few evenings later, and when Lina attempted
to reengage herself in October, she was forced from the stage in the
middle of a performance. She could no longer remember simple tunes, and
words did not come at all.
For the next thirty six years, Lina Bruna Rasa survived in solitude in
a mental facility in Milan, hardly remembered and rarely seen.
As she languished in her very private world, a few of her colleagues
did remember.
Augusta Oltrabella - "I studied with Maestro Manlio Bavagnoli, the
father of the conductor. Among his pupils was Lina Bruna Rasa, the
greatest Santuzza and Maddalena of them all".
Gilda Dalla Rizza - " I took on Santuzza, but not for long. I felt I
was not in the same league in this role as Lina Bruna Rasa".
Enzo De Muro Lomanto - "The experience of singing Turiddu with Lina
Bruna Rasa was comparable to nothing else in my long experience on the
lyric stage. She made all of us want to be just that much better, and I
think we were".
We cannot know what it was like to have been there, but when we listen
to her recordings, we can close our eyes and retreat into our own very
private world, and perhaps, share a bit of hers. She was not so
different from us, after all. We are all made of clay! ."
She seems like a suitable person to take the piss out of on a group
such as this. How wonderfully informed you all are:):)
Or perhaps the "sleeve notes" did not mention this?
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
La Donna Mobile
Thank you for posting this comprehensive information, but please don't
be so patronising as to assume that people other than The Clown are
taking the Piss. REG may not be my best friend, but I know enough about
REG to know that he's not taking the piss, and I know enough about
myself to know that I would tread warily in so doing. And with all due
respect, apart from yourself, the contributors to this sub-thread are
The Clown - beyond redemption; Silverfin, pleading complete ignorance,
but whom I know well enough to know would not take the piss, far from
it, partly for professional reasons; REG who has professional reasons
not to take the piss; and me, who, in my defence, used the phrase
'desperately sad' twice. No one else has chimed in to take the piss.
I know that one in five of the UK population has mental ill health; I
imagine the stats are similar throughout the Western World. I am
mercifully lucky that those close to me have only suffered situational
or pharmaceutically induced depression, but there are sufficient people
in my wider circle of extended family and social acquaintances with
profound or enduring mental ill health, or who have committed suicide
that I would not take the piss, and I imagine the same goes for most of
the rest of rmo. In the 21st century we should be no more inclined to
take the piss out of mental illness than cancer, longterm life limiting
physical illness, congenital or hereditary physical conditions, or
unfortunate serious accidents.
Why should I, or anyone else, want to take the piss out of Lina Bruna
Rasa anymore than we would out of Luciano Pavarotti, Ruth Ann Swenson,
Marilyn Horne, Dawn Upshaw or even or especially, Russell Watson, when
as members of the human race we feel sympathy for their cancer partly
because we've seen it in those who are closer to us.
david...@aol.com
andre35 wrote:
To call anti-intellectualism "more destructive" makes one ask;
> a. destructive to what?
Human culture and human happiness. The anti-intellectual attitude is
omnipresent, it takes many forms, and it's manifest in contempt for
every conceivable form of knowledge and curiosity. ("Why would anybody
be interested in THAT?") The anti-intellectual attitude is ubiquitous
in the USA and probably in human society. Perry Miller, the great
American historian who wrote about the Puritans also wrote about the
anti-intellectual tradition in American history: there is one, and to
this day it results in, for example, the electorate irrationally voting
its "gut" and against its own best interests.
In the historically black college where I used to teach, this endemic
anti-intellectualism took a racist form: for some blacks, learning,
education, literacy, and simply speaking English well were contemptible
because "white." Black teachers constantly come up against this
problem. In Chicago, black gang members shot a black kid because he
had been awarded a scholarship to a private school by Republican
businessmen.
I've already given another example of the expression of an
anti-intellectual attitude: the gratuitous contempt for opera on the
part of many people completely ignorant of the subject. Karl Rove has
very successfully exploited the profound anti-intellectual strain in
American culture to win elections. "Vote for us, not the pointy headed
intellectuals." The power and money elite consciously markets itself
as "just plain folks" in order to win votes, and book-larnin' ain't
being "just folks" in this scenario. Gary Wills has written
brilliantly about this conscious and successful Republican strategy in
the New York Review.
Far more common in the USA (and probably in human culture generally)
than your basic garden variety of snobbery is reverse snobbery: pride
in ignorance and contempt for knowledge. Again, contempt for a taste
in opera is only one example. This attitude is already prevalent in
the school yard where you can already find kids who are contemptuous of
the geeks who are interested in learning.
-david gable
LT
donpaolo wrote:
> What is so "wrong" with criticizing something that is anathema to one's
> ears/tastes? It simply gives me a headache, makes me nauseous, I therefore
> cannot stand it, although I have, indeed, given the genre a try - several
> tries......period!
There's the point: You *have* given it a try, and still don't enjoy
it.
Of course, there are always the sorts who'll pretend to notice the
nuances, then join in with others who jeer the unenthusiastic, - which
*they* may well be, themselves, but lack the frankness to admit it, and
quit with the feigned adorations.
> DonPaolo
LT,
Who's just bought a Berg CD at a garage-sale for $.25 (!), and *may*
resist the urge to use it as a frisbee.
LT
gerberk wrote re LeStinkBoll:
> Now that is a really stupid thing to say
It it wasn't, boll would never ever say it.
LT
> blaaah -yada Stinky, digested potato eater
LT
LT
donpaolo wrote:
> Ohhhhhhhhhhh - I MUST say, "Well Done", indeed!
>
> DonPaolo
Boll prefers to become "Extra-Crispy"!
REG
to call singers 'screamers' one day, and be the self-appointed vigilante for
musicians the next?
By the way, did you get permission to recopy verbatim the text you quote
below, or did you just pirate it? You might have at least had the courtesy
to give Bob the credit for writing it.
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163206551....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Stephen Jay-Taylor
Laugh at, deride, mimic cruelly, that kind of thing. O, and don't forget,
it's "take the piss out OF". Always.
As for the thread's header question......
I am.
Big time.
SJT
Mrs T xx
Stephen Jay-Taylor wrote:
> "Not sure what take the piss out means"
>
> Laugh at, deride, mimic cruelly, that kind of thing. O, and don't forget,
> it's "take the piss out OF". Always.
>
So if Americans don't say "take the piss out of" then what expression
do they use instead???
Yours, genuinely curious
Mrs T xx
Andrew T. Kay
"Mimic cruelly."
Seriously, one adjustment I had to make when I made my first British
friends was the different definition of "pissed." If an American says
"I was so pissed last night," it means he was really angry, incensed;
you're about to hear the story of what set him off. If a Brit says it,
it means inebriated, and the statement usually stands alone. This still
trips me up occasionally. Not long ago I was reading about some
pop-music recording session that fell apart because all the musicians
had been drinking, and the producer was "really pissed." And I was
thinking, "Well, he had a right to be. That was very unprofessional.
[pause] Oh. Wait. It just means he was as bad off as they were."
But doubling back for a second, there's a slightly more genteel
version, "take the mickey out of," isn't there? I've heard that one
too.
Todd K
Stephen Jay-Taylor
angry, incensed; you're about to hear the story of what set him off. If a
Brit says it, it means inebriated, and the statement usually stands alone"
It's harder than you think, because we do indeed use pissed in your sense of
angry, except in English it's always then expressed as "pissed off".
"Pissed" on its own, as you surmise, just means drunk : a "piss-up" is an
orgy of alcohol. "Pissed on" is another frequently used expression, which I
should imagine translates directly into American.
SJT, pisaladier
Mrs T xx
Andrew T. Kay wrote:
> >> But doubling back for a second, there's a slightly more genteel
> version, "take the mickey out of," isn't there? I've heard that one
> too.
>
Yes - don't Americans say "take the mickey" either??
Have no idea who or what the "mickey" actually refers to in this
context. Anyone know pls???
Mrs T xx
Andrew T. Kay
> " If an American says "I was so pissed last night," it means he was really
> angry, incensed; you're about to hear the story of what set him off. If a
> Brit says it, it means inebriated, and the statement usually stands alone" [moi]
>
> It's harder than you think, because we do indeed use pissed in your sense of
> angry, except in English it's always then expressed as "pissed off".
Here, it *used* to always be expressed as "pissed off." In recent
years, the usage trend has been toward simply "pissed," although both
versions are commonly heard. "My ride didn't show up at the airport and
I was PISSED."
Todd K
Andrew T. Kay
> Andrew T. Kay wrote:
> > >> But doubling back for a second, there's a slightly more genteel
> > version, "take the mickey out of," isn't there? I've heard that one
> > too.
> >
>
> Yes - don't Americans say "take the mickey" either??
Only ones who are working overtime to cultivate British affectations.
(We also don't say "bollocks" or "don't get your knickers in a twist"
or "I'm gonna give you a right go-along" or numerous other things I
hear in Mike Leigh films and old episodes of "The Young Ones.")
> Have no idea who or what the "mickey" actually refers to in this
> context. Anyone know pls???
I'm not sure, but one definition of "mickey" is a small bottle of
liquor that fits in the pocket. Maybe the synonyms "mickey" and "piss"
in this phrase have something to do with the relationship between the
drinking of alcohol and the increased production of urine?
Todd K
Andrew T. Kay
La Donna Mobile wrote:
> Thank you for posting this comprehensive information, but please don't
> be so patronising [snip of the rest]
Thanks, LDM. I could never improve upon that response, but I feel
compelled to second it.
Todd K
Andrew T. Kay
> Yes, exactly right....Magda also told a story about going to see her in the
> hospital some time much later and her (LBR) being totally vacant, which is
> kind of what you'd expect with that kind of process going on.
>
> I think there might be a Chenier with her, but am not sure.
There is. I have not heard it, as the opera is not a specialty of mine,
but it was conducted by the often-excellent Lorenzo Molajoli and was
the first complete ANDRE CHENIER recording (1931). The men were Luigi
Marini and Carlo Galeffi.
Todd K
Silverfin
Thank you to everyone who kindly posted information about the singer in
question; however, I did actually look her up for myself straight after
posting.
My actual question was: In what way does it make me a snob that I
hadn't heard of her?
I'll add to that: How on earth does one intepret the stating of
ignorance of one particular singer as making fun of the mentally ill?
Silverfin
REG
someone historical and who didn't record much, makes you a snob. Some of the
things on his list are right as 'snob things', but I didn't get that one
either.
Frankly, I don't know how anyone in their right mind (speaking of mental
illness) could have taken any of the comments on LBR as being making fun of
her or her illness.
Ocassionally, you may notice name-calling on this group.
"Silverfin" <silve...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1163249333.4...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
donpaolo
"Regular Poster" here...
DonPaolo
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1J85h.19009$Fw5...@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
david...@aol.com
Andrew T. Kay wrote:
> Here, it *used* to always be expressed as "pissed off." In recent
> years, the usage trend has been toward simply "pissed," although both
> versions are commonly heard. "My ride didn't show up at the airport and
> I was PISSED."
Yes, now "off" is only required in the imperative: "Don't piss me
off."
-david gable
capa0...@aol.com
Andrew T. Kay wrote:
> I'm not sure, but one definition of "mickey" is a small bottle of
> liquor that fits in the pocket.
>
> Todd K
===========
In America a 'mickey' is an old-fashioned term that referred to the
occasional practice in bygone days of 'slipping someone a mickey,'
i.e. adding a drug or knock-out drops to someone's drink in order to
disable an investigator, shanghai a sailor, or incapacitate a woman.
Nowadays one hears about extremely potent 'date-rape' drugs that render
women defenseless, but I don't believe I've seen doses of GHB,
rohypnol etc referred to as 'mickeys'
The definition of 'mickey' as a small flask is, I think, a Canadianism.
I have never heard it used in that way.
Pat
donpaolo
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
I, DonPaolo, attended a performance of Wozzzzeck & LOVED it sooooo much,
that it left me humming the delightful melodies running hrough my very being
for hours, nay days, nay WEEKS afterward. I am a changed person. I have
seen the light &have been to the mountain & have decided on giving away my
entire collection of Gioconda, Chenier & A. Lecouvreur recordings.
NOW, can you remove the stigma of paranoid, chip-on-shoulder, bully,
ant-Christ & make me one of the "good guys"???
Oh, BTW - is there anything to take that will stop those melodies & drive
them out of my head???
Thanks,
DonPaolo, Hippety Hopping along....
"LT" <leonardti...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163211722.3...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
donpaolo
anyone enjoying the work is an asshole", then (in addition to criticizing me
for being only half correct), maybe I could understand your over-reactive
hysteria.
However, I stated nothing approaching that - all I said was that I gave the
work more than its share of a try (specifying the 20th Cent. Opera class I
took, wherein we studied the thing in detail & the performance I
semi-attended w/Steber, Uhde, Franke & the incomparable Kurt Baum) & I find
it anathema to my sense of great music....PERIOD. Now, unless you're
related to Herr Berg, why the shit fit - YOU are the one that has taken on
characteristics of a paranoid-schizo with all your inappropriate raving,
which certainly does not serve to convince me that it is anything more than
an annoying curiosity.
DonPaolo
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1163209461.4...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
LeonardoCiampa
sapiens who isn't drooling right now.
Charlie
LeonardoCiampa wrote:
> In THIS particular group? I'm guessing a "musical snob" is any homo
> sapiens who isn't drooling right now.
Hey listen....let us not oput down the homos...some of my best
friends.....
Glad to see you..maybe we can OUT NUMBER the trolls........Actually,the
real guilty ones number only about five or six...the few others are so
sick that they are comical....Do you need a list??Not really..just read
them....
HINT..THINK MOSTLY "M"
La Donna Mobile
> In THIS particular group? I'm guessing a "musical snob" is any homo
> sapiens who isn't drooling right now.
>
Is it your intention to insult everybody who contributes to rmo?
Why don't you just bugger off back to one of Handelman's nice forums
where not a shred of intellectual or original thought is allowed to see
the light of day? It's safer, it's more comfortable, less challenging...
You annoyed a great number of people on Opera-L and then disappeared,
because you couldn't take robust debate or any criticism of your
baseless self-appointed 'expertise'.
PS Got round to attending any operas yet? Or is that still on the list
of things to-do (after writing another risible books on singers and
singing)?
Operas can be terribly enjoyable if you see them in a theatre. you
really should try it sometime.
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
Charlie
La Donna Mobile wrote:
> LeonardoCiampa wrote:
> > In THIS > Why don't you just bugger off back to one of Handelman's nice forums
> where not a shred of intellectual or original thought is allowed to see
> the light of day?
ROFLMAO......Yes...my 540 members of Vissi d'arte, my HUGE podcast
following and Google Following..and many others...they are
NUTS.....This is right...The only one who knows anything is La Donna
e....in Elisir...Belcore says "La donna e un animale."
She can add it to the list of things I called her...funny...I used to
think she was more of a "Donna e Buona."Wha hoppen?????
BUGGER OFF?? That sounds like a BRITISH expression...Well, we won the
war...CH
LT
> LeonardoCiampa wrote:
> > In THIS particular group? I'm guessing a "musical snob" is any homo
> > sapiens who isn't drooling right now.
Bingo!
And watch Mortimyra Snerd sputter at you:
> Is it your intention to insult everybody who contributes to rmo?
No, just the "contributions" of idioti like you.
> Why don't you just bugger off
Ooh, nastie-nastie!!! What will the NonExistent crotlin say??
>back to my bollmann's L-treen Lair, where not a shred of intellectual >or original thought is allowed to see the light of day? I
Ain't often, but when you're right, you're right, Toots!
> You annoyed a great number of people on Opera-L and then >disappeared,
As you ought to - with more reasons.
> I couldn't take robust debate or any criticism of my
> baseless, but brainless, self-appointed 'expertise'.
E vero.
> Operas can be terribly enjoyable if you see them in a theatre. you
> really should try it sometime.
Not if you're sitting/standing/squatting within 100 yards.
LT
donpaolo wrote:
> WOW - with those credentials, you'd think she'd have made the status of
> "Regular Poster" here...
Nooo waaaaay! She was a Mensh..er....Menschesse, and some here
would've been vastly too far beneath her league. Soo, no dice!!!
> DonPaolo
LT
alanwa...@aol.com
Mr Ciampa's web site explains all, bar the fact that his choral group
in Boston are in a downtown church is charging $10 a performance, $5
concessions.
The latter begs several questions. Either Mr Ciampa is massively
subsidising his choral group (if so, good on him) or otherwise there
are these alternatives:
a) the choral group do not receive a fee
b) the members of the choral group PAY to be in the group (as Mr
Handelman did with some of his "opera appearances", guaranteeing him a
certain number of appearances at a pre-determined fee which he has to
pay upfront).
No doubt Mr Ciampa will let us know the situation, in the fullness of
time, if he sticks around.
Personally I have always worked on c): they pay me, I don't pay them.
Obviously it is different in America.
Little Jimmy Olsen
gibberish, pretended they were written by the original poster, then
gleefully answered them as if he had skewered and dispatched the original
poster to a life of ignominy.
Evidently, Leonard imagines that none of the readers of RMO ever notice this
transparent stratagem. Either that or Leonard imagines that the readers
think his answers are devlishly witty. Another possibility is that Beefy123
makes Leonard do it. Or could it be the other way around?
"LT" <leonardti...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1163276246....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Little Jimmy Olsen
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote
> Mr Ciampa's web site explains all, bar the fact that his choral group
> in Boston are in a downtown church is charging $10 a performance, $5
> concessions.
>
> The latter begs several questions. Either Mr Ciampa is massively
> subsidising his choral group (if so, good on him) or otherwise there
> are these alternatives:
>
> a) the choral group do not receive a fee
>
> b) the members of the choral group PAY to be in the group (as Mr
> Handelman did with some of his "opera appearances", guaranteeing him a
> certain number of appearances at a pre-determined fee which he has to
> pay upfront).
>
> No doubt Mr Ciampa will let us know the situation, in the fullness of
> time, if he sticks around.
>
> Personally I have always worked on c): they pay me, I don't pay them.
> Obviously it is different in America.
>
> Kind regards,
> Alan M. Watkins
>
I left his website a very chastened man, having learned that he "is
undoubtedly one of the pre-eminent musicians of his generation. He is a
composer, organist, author, pianist, and vocal coach/accompanist and is
highly regarded in all four areas." Can anyone imagine who might have
written that?
Mitchell Kaufman
> In THIS particular group? I'm guessing a "musical snob" is any homo
> sapiens who isn't drooling right now.
Hey, I checked out your website. Nice comb-over!
MK
Little Jimmy Olsen
"Mitchell Kaufman" <forg...@iaint.disclosinit> wrote in message
news:1honh2f.pqb5xe1sxp83bN%forg...@iaint.disclosinit...
ROFLMAO!
LT
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote
>
>
> > Mr Ciampa's web site explains all, bar the fact that his choral group
> > in Boston are in a downtown church is charging $10 a performance, $5
> > concessions.
> >
> > The latter begs several questions. Either Mr Ciampa is massively
> > subsidising his choral group (if so, good on him) or otherwise there
> > are these alternatives:
> >
> > a) the choral group do not receive a fee
> >
> > b) the members of the choral group PAY to be in the group (as Mr
> > Handelman did with some of his "opera appearances", guaranteeing him a
> > certain number of appearances at a pre-determined fee which he has to
> > pay upfront).
> >
> > No doubt Mr Ciampa will let us know the situation, in the fullness of
> > time, if he sticks around.
> >
> > Personally I have always worked on c): they pay me, I don't pay them.
> > Obviously it is different in America.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Alan M. Watkins
> >
A chastened hyaenid exclaims:
>I left his website a very chastened man
No, Stinky, you skulked away from his website, remaining the same,
same, lame idiot you were. And are.
> he "is
> undoubtedly one of the pre-eminent musicians of his generation.
While you and each of your bizarre, cowardly, numskull 'ID's' are the
pre-eminent nitwits and losers of SEVERAL generations.
>He is a
> composer, organist, author, pianist, and vocal coach/accompanist and is
> highly regarded in all four areas." Can anyone imagine who might >have
> written that?
Not you. That's for sure.
Btw,
B.Y., Follmann
LT
"Beefless/Brainless/Ballless/Bollmann:
><Pfffffft!>
No squillo, there, Stinky. Tsk....tsk....
LT
Scab-Scalp Bollmann guffawed and cackled, through crotte-laden
dentures:
> ROFLMAO! YAAAAHAAAHAAHAAAHEEEEEEEHOOOO!!!!!
A new boll-tone "vocalise", is it?
LT
Re title:
Snob? Not Mr. Ciampa, despite his impressive credentials:
Little Jimmy Olsen
>
> Re title:
>
> Snob? Not Mr. Ciampa, despite his impressive credentials:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Ciampa
>
Wunnerful wunnerful wunnerful! Poor naive Leonard. Who do you imagine
authored that entry? Even Leonard Tillman, or Beefy123, could go to
Wikipedia and write a grandiose entry about his life and times. Elvis too.
Wunnerful.
LT
Stinky Bollmann cackled thusly:
> Wunnerful wunnerful wunnerful!
Poor, poor, poor, stupid, stupid, stupid, naive, naive, naive Stinky!
Who do you imagine really believes you're Lawrence Welk? He was
Beethoven, Bernstein, Rachmaninov, Caruso, Corelli, Franchi, and
Peerce, -a billion times over, compared to the guffawing hyena that ye
be.
Why,
Even the nonexistent (but plenty repulsive) crottlin bollmann could go
and say
"wunnerful" three times, and play-pretend/aspire.
Bottom line:
Kain Gournish't Helfen.
Toodles,
KGH
A. Brain
Very well put, as usual, David, and I look forward to reading Wills's
article.
Intellectual endeavors and interest in arts are also now, as they
have been for some time, considered effete or effeminate, with the
pejorative term "gay" now being acceptable in mainstream comedy and
among the audience Hollywood and television have for that kind of
so-called "entertainment", the average 14 year old boy.
A couple of years ago, I took some friends' 13 year old to the opera
with his parents (clients, friends, and Republicans). It was "Tosca"and
the kid seemed to enjoy it: "It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be".
I'm not sure what his attitude would be now if I invited him to come to
another opera.
Going back to the original question, it reminded me of Ambrose
Bierce's definition, in THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY, of an
"egoist", which I recall as being "a person of low taste, more
interested in himself than in me".
I'm not sure how that might translate into the question at
hand.
I don't think it is snobbery to have contempt for some
forms of music, or to be baffled by the fact that so many
highly educated people are unacquainted with classical
music. In fact, it's my belief that most people can or
could appreciate classical music if they would give it
a try. " I know what I like" usually means "I like
what I know".
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
LeonardoCiampa
Wikipedia and write a grandiose entry about his life and times. Elvis
too.
That is positively true, and it is the Achilles Heel of Wiki.
>Who do you imagine
authored that entry?
OK, now we're getting into libel. If you contest that a Wiki article does
not a public figure make, which I agree with, then that means I am not a
public figure ... which means you canNOT accuse me of writing my own Wiki
bio, which would be inethical and again Wiki rules. If I AM a public
figure you can say anything I want. But if I AM a public figure, why
would I write my own Wiki article?
LeonardoCiampa
LeonardoCiampa
> > in Boston are in a downtown church is charging $10 a performance, $5
> > concessions.> > The latter begs several questions. Either Mr Ciampa
is massively
> > subsidising his choral group (if so, good on him) or otherwise there
> > are these alternatives:
> >
> > a) the choral group do not receive a fee
Of course I'm not going to respond to swill, now or ever. However facts
and logic I'm happy to discuss.
1. How does the admission price of a performance "beg a question"? What
performing group survives on ticket revenue?
2. How did this poster conclude that a. the group has no sponsors; b. I
pay the singers out of pocket (which I don't); c. That would be "good on
me" (I have a family -- I don't think it would be good at all); or d. The
singers did not receive a fee, which they most certainly did.
I don't mind that the poster is mean. That's what makes this group what
it is! However, this kind of ignorance of facts and of how musical
organizations work is very unfortunate.
LeonardoCiampa
The alternative would be a. to not annoy anyone on Opera-L and b. to stick
around there.
Of course this group is a swill bucket in comparison. But it is a
non-censored bucket, and I'm in favor of that.
> Operas can be terribly enjoyable if you see them in a theatre. you
> really should try it sometime.
Why? If you can answer that question you're good. The ticket prices are
how much? The singing is how good?
LeonardoCiampa
>again Wiki rules = against Wiki rules
>If I AM a public
figure you can say anything I want
should be "you can say anything YOU want." But re-reading it, I kind of
like my typo!
Stephen Jay-Taylor
Into the which, therefore, you seem unaccountably keen to shove your
combed-over snout all of a sudden. I do so wonder why ..
SJT
LeonardoCiampa
SJT
It's uncensored. I like that.
PS I still don't know what combed-over means.
Stephen Jay-Taylor
British television. It's comedian Gregor Fisher, by the way.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/images/400/nakedvideo_1.jpg
SJT
Stephen Jay-Taylor
Tuchas Flatus ?
Van Gogh ? [ a wholly personal and unusual sense of perspective ].
Britney Spears ?
Dame Beryl Clitterhouse, doyenne of small organ strumming ?
Proust ?
Enquiring minds etc.
SJT