Leading Cracker: Pavarotti or Domingo?
Drakejake
Domingo. Pavarotti stated that he was going to sing the Mes amis aria from
Daughter of the Regiment in key, with its nine high Cs. During rehearsals at
the Met, apparently, he decided to transpose the piece down a half step. But
then he blew the B naturals and dropped out of the production. He had a famous
crack during his few performances of Don Carlo in Milan and was booed. He can
be seen covering up a blown high C in a televised concert performance of the
Ballo duet. He can be seen also covering a cracked note in his religious
concert from Montreal. Live recordings of Favorita and Puritani reveal cracks
or frayed high notes. And Pavarotti was known as a high note singer with
excellent technique.
I have seen Domingo in person perhaps six or eight times. He never cracked.
The only crack from a live broadcast or telecast that I can remember was at the
very end of the Samson telecast. Domingo states in his book that after his
first Lohengrins he regularly cracked around A flat for a number of months.
Domingo's schedule and work ethic are quite different from that of, say,
Corelli, or many other opera singers. Corelli would do very little when he
wasn't rehearsing or performing. He wasn't out going to parties, appearing on
television, hosting voice competitions, being interviewed, making opera films,
making numerous recordings, managing multiple opera houses, giving numerous
high profile concerts and recitals, conducting opera orchestras, etc.
Performing is only about a half or a third of what Domingo has been doing for
many years.
In contrast to Corelli, who would cancel if he had a hang-nail, Domingo has
been very, very reliable and quite reluctant to cancel. This has gotten him in
trouble when it turned out that his cold or flu prevented him from singing
anywhere near his best.
Drakejake
Parterrebox
the same thing as cracking. In the case of the Ballo duet, for example,
Pavarotti hides his face behind the soprano's wig to conceal the fact that he
is (perhaps) cutting the high note short.
The "Don Carlo" high note practically no tenor ever sang well; it's a rare
example of plain bad vocal writing by Verdi.
I don't ever recall hearing Pavarotti actually crack a high note, though on
occasion (especially lately) the extreme high notes could turn rather shrill
and screamy as he sustained them. On the other hand, there are plenty of
examples of Domingo's either cracking high notes or else leaving them out
completely throughout his career. Recently he has taken to singing his top
notes in a nasal whine, which at least doesn't crack so often -- and that's the
only good thing you can say about those bleats.
Parterrebox
been very, very reliable and quite reluctant to cancel.
Tell this to the people who bought tickets to his performances as Enee in Les
Troyens.
Sergio Henrique M. da Silva
difficult C in Don Carlos is an excuse for cracking.
What about Pav's latest Aida at the MET ?
I think the original poster was correct. I recall more "cracking" or missing
the note or whatever from Pav than
Domingo. Not that these things are extremely important because singers are
human and make mistakes.
....
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"Sergio Henrique M. da Silva" <serg...@pobox.com> wrote in message
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Drakejake
either one hasn't hit it correctly or because it is cracking. You have faulted
Domingo for getting off notes prematurely but apparently it is OK if Pavarotti
does it. My statements about Pavarotti's cracks were accurate and can be
verified from videotapes and recordings. You clearly have a double standard.
A number of tenors, including Pavarotti, Heppner, and Vickers, have had major
problems with high notes and with cracking, but you try to imply that Domingo
is the only one.
I have just been singing Nessun Dorma. I have sung it in private many times.
I have also sung it onstage in its choral version, which comes at the end of
the complete opera. This is a very difficult aria because of the tessitura.
It tends to stay up in the passaggio and covered area much of the time. The
two series of high A naturals are quite taxing. I can understand why a tenor
could blow the B natural at the end because of fatigue from the preceding
sequences. But if you can't sing the the B natural successfully most of the
time, don't sing the aria and don't sing the role. I do not exempt Domingo
from this precept. I note that Pavarotti has sung the aria many times in
concert, in key, without cracking the high B.
Drakejake
Drakejake
I think he took the part because of the golden breastplate. Domingo had made
clear for a number of weeks before the opening of that Met season that he was
doubtful whether he could sing this opera. I understand that there were a
couple of downward transpositions to help him and he sang, I believe, all but
one of his scheduled performances. William Lewis was ready and willing to
carry the load. Perhaps you thought he was superior in the part.
Domingo has demonstrated great acumen in deciding what operas to perform. I
give you credit for referring to the one opera which took Domingo to the limit.
He would probably say that he should have passed on Troyens. Corelli would
probably say the same about Ugonotti. He believes his voice was too heavy for
the part, although the results were dazzling. Every singer, even the most
talented, has limitations. Thank goodness Domingo's limits have been far
outside those of most tenors.
Drakejake
RKBB
otherwise exploded at some stage of their career?
For me Domingo is my tenor of choice....doesn't take anything away from
Pav's Radames which I prefer and also his Rodolfo.
Regards,
RKBB
Parterrebox
I think he took the part because of the golden breastplate.
Stop thinking with your dick, Mary.
Premiereopera
>From: drak...@aol.com (Drakejake)
>Date: 9/20/02 4:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020920164011...@mb-ms.aol.com>
>
>From what I have seen, Pavarotti has had more problems with cracking than
>Domingo. Pavarotti stated that he was going to sing the Mes amis aria from
>Daughter of the Regiment in key, with its nine high Cs. During rehearsals at
>the Met, apparently, he decided to transpose the piece down a half step. But
>then he blew the B naturals and dropped out of the production. He had a
>famous
>crack during his few performances of Don Carlo in Milan and was booed.
Drakejake, Domingo hasn't been able to sing even one high B for fifteen years
or more. And you are correct about Pav.I was there, and it was embarassing. But
Pav does not come close to Domingo for the King of Cracks. You cite that high B
that Pav cracked on in Don Carlo. I have seen Don Carlo with Domingo perhaps 10
times. In every performance, he failed to make this note. No crack, just a
hoarse shout. Awful.
Ed
Premiereopera
>From: charlie bre...@aol.com
>Date: 9/20/02 6:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <db8noucgj111mdhtf...@4ax.com>>of course skippy knows all about cracks... he's had his tongue up most
>of them around here....
>
>
Very mature. Keep it up. How many dozens of screen names do you have? You're
stupid and disgusting.
Ed
Premiereopera
>problems with high notes and with cracking, but you try to imply that Domingo
>is the only one.
>
>From: drak...@aol.com (Drakejake)
Not the "only" one, Howard, but most certainly the leading cracker. The #1
cracker by far.
Ed
Premiereopera
>. Thank goodness Domingo's limits have been far
>outside those of most tenors.
>
Thank goodness, indeed. Otherwise we would have a cracker for every tenor.
Enough of your nonsense, Howard. Saying it countless times won't make it true.
The man cannot get through even one major Italian role today. He should only
sing Wagner at best.
Ed
Ian Graham
<drak...@aol.com> writes
>From what I have seen, Pavarotti has had more problems with cracking than
>Domingo. Pavarotti stated that he was going to sing the Mes amis aria from
>Daughter of the Regiment in key, with its nine high Cs. During rehearsals at
>the Met, apparently, he decided to transpose the piece down a half step. But
>then he blew the B naturals and dropped out of the production. He had a famous
>crack during his few performances of Don Carlo in Milan and was booed. He can
>be seen covering up a blown high C in a televised concert performance of the
>Ballo duet. He can be seen also covering a cracked note in his religious
>concert from Montreal. Live recordings of Favorita and Puritani reveal cracks
>or frayed high notes. And Pavarotti was known as a high note singer with
>excellent technique.
Any singer can 'crack' on a high note. I have heard the most
technically assured singers crack on occasions. Even Sutherland. Even
Bergonzi.
In more recent memory there was a broadcast from (I think) Covent Garden
in which Alagna failed to make a top C at the end of 'O mio rimorso' in
"Traviata".
These things happen. The criticism of Domingo is not of his 'cracking'
high notes but of his avoiding them, either by downward transpositions
(as much as two tones?) or by skipping them altogether.
Has Domingo ever sung a high C live?
How about a B flat?
IG
--
Ian Graham
Skip
<charlie bre...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Drakejake
Let's assume that everything you have said about Domingo is true, in spades.
How do you explain his unparalleled career? How do you explain the tickets
sold to his performances, his record sales, his dominance in the world of
opera? How do you explain the dozens of rave reviews from the past fifteen
years? How do you explain (away) his quick rise in the opera world in the late
60's and early 70's when Gedda, Corelli, Tucker, Bergonzi, Vickers, etc., were
in their prime? How could someone without high notes be so successful?
I think most people will agree that high notes are extremely important in
opera. Many arias and ensembles aim towards them and focus on them. Audiences
are usually aware of these climactic moments and look forward to the high
notes. Wouldn't audiences and critics be crushed and horribly disappointed by
Domingo's failures in this crucial area?
Why is it that the world of opera doesn't agree with you on your poor rating of
Domingo as a singer? Are your taste and judgment so exalted that only a very
few human beings share your erudite perceptions?
I have asked many of these questions before and you have never come up with any
plausible answers.
I will offer some possibilities for you.
1. Domingo's personal attactiveness, personal charm, musicianship, acting
ability, stage presence, legato, expressiveness, etc., cause audiences and
critics to overlook faked, omitted, or blown high notes. In their view, they
are seeing marvelous, artistic, convincing performances even though the high C
was bad or the high B flat was omitted.
2. Most of the people in the opera world--conductors, opera company managers,
record company execs, music critics, audiences, record buyers, and the like are
idiots who cannot tell the talented from the untalented, and, in fact, prefer
untalented people like Domingo to the true stars, such as Dvorsky, William
Lewis, Margison, Sylvester, Farina, Leech, etc., who are overlooked and
undervalued.
Drakejake
Commspkmn
Yes. A really good one? I'm not so sure.
<<How about a B flat?>>
I would think so.
Premiereopera
>Let's assume that everything you have said about Domingo is true, in spades.
>How do you explain his unparalleled career?
I can't. It is a complete mystery to me. Same with Milnes, but that's another
story.
>Why is it that the world of opera doesn't agree with you on your poor rating
>of
>Domingo as a singer?
Just who is the world of opera? You? There are many of this list who do agree
with me, and have said so, just as there are some who disagree, but probably
one or two that post under multiple screen names.
>2. Most of the people in the opera world--conductors, opera company
>managers,
>record company execs, music critics, audiences, record buyers, and the like
>are
>idiots who cannot tell the talented from the untalented,
You are right about this last sentence. Of course, Domingo himself is a
conductor and opera company manager, isn't he?
Ed
http://www.premiereopera.com for the best opera on VIDEO, CD, CD-ROM
Drakejake
all these years? Your statements make no sense and shouldn't be believed.
Now here is the true answer to my questions.
Domingo has sung over 3000 opera performances. He has cracked notes. So have
Heppner, Vickers, Callas, Pavarotti, and many, many others. The reason you
single out Domingo is your enormous bias against him. You have to come up with
some reason for constantly insulting him and his alleged lack of high notes is
the best rationalization you can find.
If what you say is true, there would be an explicit consensus among opera
producers and performers that Domingo can't sing high notes and he could never
have had a career. You cannot have an operatic career, much less the greatest
career ever in staged opera, and not have reliable high notes. High notes are
too important, and cracked notes are too embarrassing, to allow someone who, it
is alleged, doesn't have the range of a decent baritone, much less that of a
decent tenor, to rise to the top of his profession and stay there for decades.
But it is also true that Domingo is a polished, elegant singer and committed
actor with an outstanding stage presence, and these assets compensate the
audience for those times when Domingo, like all opera singers, has had an off
night or has blown a note or two. At least that is their opinion so far as we
can tell from the evidence. Domingo has certainly not lacked for an audience
for his live performances or recordings. I am not aware of any boycott of
Domingo because of his alleged vocal problems. Even you can't stay away.
On the one hand we have the unconfirmed assertions of a handful of opera fans,
on the other a forty year, world-wide, multimedia career of unsurpassed success
and achievement. In those forty years Domingo has consistently earned rave
reviews from sophisticated critics and hours of applause from happy audience
members. This record of providing the goods to audiences continues even though
Domingo has lost some high notes and stamina due to the aging process which
affects all of us. Each person can make his own judgment on which of these two
contrary positions makes sense. conflicting this obvious conflict.
Drakejake
Premiereopera
>Subject: Re: Leading Cracker: Pavarotti or Domingo?
>From: drak...@aol.com (Drakejake)
>Date: 9/21/02 4:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020921044025...@mb-mh.aol.com>
>
>This is the best you can do? You don't know what the world of opera is after
>all these years? Your statements make no sense and shouldn't be believed.
>
>Now here is the true answer to my questions.
>
Sorry, but you must be an idiot. You are the judge on whether my statements are
true or not?
And you are going to treat us with the "true answers" to your own absurd
questions?
Get a life Howard. I don't have the time, or the interest, to write pages of
answers to your inane questions.
Ed
Helmut Fischer
"Drakejake" wrote:
> Pavarotti stated that he was going to sing the Mes amis aria from
> Daughter of the Regiment in key, with its nine high Cs. During rehearsals
at
> the Met, apparently, he decided to transpose the piece down a half step.
But
> then he blew the B naturals and dropped out of the production.
That's wrong: Pavarotti transposed the aria into e-flat - a full step. So he
only sang (or attempted) b flats.
"Parterrebox" wrote the following rubbish:
> The "Don Carlo" high note practically no tenor ever sang well; it's a rare
> example of plain bad vocal writing by Verdi.
Apparently James Jordan listened to very few tenors as Don Carlo only - or
only to bad ones. His problem!
I both on recordings and in life performances have rarely had singers having
troubles with this b natural. Only singers who frequently have problems with
high notes come to mind (like Domingo, Aragall, Carreras, Araiza or late
Luis Lima).
To excuse the (one time) cracking of someones favourite tenor by saying
"nobody can do it well anyway" is absolutely incorrect, even childish.
Helmut Fischer
Premiereopera
>Date: 9/21/02 9:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3d8c72c3$0$8780$3b21...@news.univie.ac.at>
>
>Just two corrections:
>"Drakejake" wrote:
>
>> Pavarotti stated that he was going to sing the Mes amis aria from
>> Daughter of the Regiment in key, with its nine high Cs. During rehearsals
>at
>> the Met, apparently, he decided to transpose the piece down a half step.
>But
>> then he blew the B naturals and dropped out of the production.
>
>That's wrong: Pavarotti transposed the aria into e-flat - a full step. So he
>only sang (or attempted) b flats.
>
Hi Helmut- Glad to hear from the real Helmut.
I was at that Fille prima, and he did only lower it 1/2 tone. He also
completely blew every B. It was one of the most embarassing things I have
witnessed, and in some ways, operatically speaking, the saddest.
Ed
http://www.premiereopera.com for the best opera on VIDEO, AUDIO, AND CD-ROM
GRNDPADAVE
recordings.
As far as transpositions go, I berlieve Bjoerling must have considerably
reduced the pitch for "Di quella pira" in his 1939 Covent Garden performance.
Although that may be a consequence of the transfer.
Frankly this discussion is going nowhere, because where D or P cracked - or how
often -- detracts not a whit from their permanent legacy.
The tone of the discussion has gotten like so many on RMO.
What else is new?
==G/P Dave
Operapooch
>recordings.
Either you have a wry sense of humor, or you really don't get it do you?
I will allow for the former.
Rafael Bocanegra
Skip
sing it over and over again until you get it right......
"GRNDPADAVE" <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020921101343...@mb-mm.aol.com...
gerberk
way it was.And if he cant get it the way he wants he starts saying things
like I dont care if it's a synthesizer as long as i like it.It's these old
people that always get in the way of progress.You should read his opinion on
movies ,that is amazing .
Operapooch heeft geschreven in bericht
<20020921101800...@mb-fx.aol.com>...
Leonard Tillman
>I think Pav "cracked" in a Lucia in Milan and
> was booed. I'm not sure the difficult C in Don
> Carlos is an excuse for cracking. What about
> Pav's latest Aida at the MET ?
>I think the original poster was correct. I recall
> more "cracking" or missing the note or
> whatever from Pav than
>Domingo.
> Not that these things are extremely
> important because singers are human and
> make mistakes.
That last point, if given due attention, - would probably wipe
out 35% of RMO's activities. 15% has yet been devoted to occasional
postings on other singers, operas, and miscellany.
In any event, the balance of list-space would, of course,
continue to be occupied by the one and only "Original Pineiro"
Boccanudnik's automatic repeats of "The Glories of Studer", and
condemnations of everyone else - singers, composers, conductors,
orchestras, and fans alike.
(The above calculations [ as done by a recent Casio® model]
*may* be inaccurate by a point or two, - but no more than that.)
LT
Be careful what you wish for - your Genie may be unlicensed to operate
in your state of residence.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 09/21/2002 10:25 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Cb0j9.16637$GJ3.3...@twister.nyc.rr.com>
>
>Of course you wouldn't hear them crack in a studio recording.......you can
>sing it over and over again until you get it right......
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you, sir.
That thought never occurred to me !!
==G/P Dave
donpaolo
> recordings.
Well, that makes a case in favor of your beloved studio recordings, I
suppose. A new CD - "Domingo Sings Uncracked Studio-Recorded Verdi". Liner
notes would include something like: "Due to public demand & curiosity,
popular pushed-up zarzuela baritone Placido Domingo has graciously consented
to provide his fans with a studio-recorded legacy of what his live
performances have all too often failed to do - uncracked, ringing, clear,
sustained high notes. I can just imaging the re-takometer spinning out of
control.
Fooey!
DonPaolo
Rafael Bocanegra
> But it is also true that Domingo is a polished,
true he sucks dicks with style not like handelfag, a real pig
cunt
Skip
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<anna may bo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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> "Skip" <skipnospam＼nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >Of course you wouldn't hear them crack in a studio recording.......you
can
> >sing it over and over again until you get it right......
>
>
> particular.
>
Skip
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>
Steve Silverman
news:jf0j9.98967$H6.80...@zwoll1.home.nl...
> Dave doesn't get it.He is one of these old artefacts who just likes it the
> way it was.And if he cant get it the way he wants he starts saying things
> like I dont care if it's a synthesizer as long as i like it.It's these old
> people that always get in the way of progress.
Idiot.
________
Steve Silverman
Essex
England
si...@webtv.net
> is one of these old artefacts who just
> likes it the way it was.And if he cant get
> it the way he wants he starts saying
> things like I dont care if it's a
> synthesizer as long as i like it.It's these
> old people that always get in the way of
> progress.You should read his opinion on
> movies ,that is amazing .
Gerbeck, as amusing as you can be at times, I think your comments about
old people and,especially Dave, to be a tad over the line. Since I
joined this group several years ago, Dave has led me (through his
postings and reviews and comments,not personally) to many great
recordings I might have overlooked otherwise. He has well over the
majority of the time proven himself over and over to be one of the few
fair, balanced and intelligent people left in this group. Many of us
would do well to try being more like him in some ways. Just my opinion.
John
gerberk
>>>old people and,especially Dave, to be a tad over the line.
Well it's not really my opinion dont worry.
>>>Many of us
>>>would do well to try being more like him in some ways. Just my opinion.
>>>John
And what makes you think I don' t agree with that.
It was a joke,but i must admit it could have done with a smiley.Sorry Dave
you didn't take it serious did you?
Helmut Fischer
> >That's wrong: Pavarotti transposed the aria into e-flat - a full step. So
he
> >only sang (or attempted) b flats.
> >
>
> Hi Helmut- Glad to hear from the real Helmut.
>
> I was at that Fille prima, and he did only lower it 1/2 tone. He also
> completely blew every B. It was one of the most embarassing things I have
> witnessed, and in some ways, operatically speaking, the saddest.
>
> Ed
Sorry for this mistake - I was so sure he sang it in e-flat, but just
checked my recording: E major!
Helmut