LA TRAVIATA and verismo
grndp...@aol.com
such as Manon, Violetta, et al.
Immediately I winced because I thought this the typical reaction of a
man who had no sympathy for the plight of women when they could aspire
to no independent existence. The ill treatment of women by men is
probably the greatest moral blot on the whole history of humankind.
To his credit, Verdi held his second wife in high esteem. And I
wonder how much we owe Giuseppina Strepponi for Verdi's success.
It was she (the first ever Abigaille) who prodded La Scala's
impressario, Merelli, into staging NABUCCO in 1842. And it was she
who sought every opportunity to get Verdi to Paris where his musical
vision was enlarged by contact with Rossini and with the world of
grand opera.
Strepponi was instrumental in shooing Verdi off to St. Petersburg
where FORZA DEL DESTINO was premiered. I suspect she worked behind
the scenes in plotting with Boito and Ricordi to keep Verdi from
settling into retirement.
But somehow I think her greatest achievement was in inspiring Verdi to
write LA TRAVIATA.
It is miraculous when you consider that Verdi only first saw the play
(by Alexandre Dumas, fils) in Paris, February 1852. He must
immediately have recognized the operatic possibilities.
The libretto was provided by Maria Francesco Piave, and I think, apart
from RIGOLETTO, it is Piave's greatest achievement.
Between Paris in February 1852 and Venice, March 1853, not only did
Verdi complete this opera, but he also wrote and premiered in Rome in
January 1853, IL TROVATORE. Two masterpieces in one year. No
composer ever achieved before or since anything like this.
Violetta's nobility emerges, guided by her receptiveness to Alfredo's
declaration of love. Yet, it is (as she notes) "tardi" -- she is
already dying when we first encountered her.
Death from natural causes is rare in opera. Yet, in life, violent
death is the rare event. It took tremendous imagination (and courage)
on Verdi's part to build his opera around a heroine already in the
initial stages of death at the outset. The prelude warns of this by
its diaphonous harbinger of Act III. That sadness is momentarily
dispelled by one of the most familiar melodies ("Amami Alfredo") ever
to emerge. There is a charming bit of counterpoint as the violins
twitter around the broad tune sung by the cellos.
There are so many drinking songs in opera, but an observant critic
notes, this one is rare in being in the form of a duet with chorus.
Act II is centered upon Verdi's longest dialogue. Yet he captures
well every turn of mood. Violetta's desperation (and shortness of
breath) is brilliantly revealed in "Non sapete."
The second party is capped by a massive ensemble, again full of
diverse sentiments.
Can any of this be surpassed?
The last act, in my opinion, attains a level of perfection rarely
encountered. It is full of reminscences of happier times and regrets
at their passing. But it has a realism about it that I can find in no
previous Italian opera. (I say "Italian" because Mozart, in his 18th
century manner, offered a kind of realism, but never regarding death
by natural causes). Has the finality of death ever been more
fatefully foretold than in the Doctor's aside to Annina? Yet,
Violetta, has a strong spirit: "Gran dio morir si giovine."
We know that Bizet was inordinately fond of LA TRAVIATA. Did the
Spanish dances in Act II Scene 2 of TRAVIATA influence CARMEN?
RMO tends be a tenor-centric venue, and I doubt that a majority here
would declare TRAVIATA Verdi's greatest opera. It offers such a
glowing view of mature love that I wonder if Verdi's own deep
affection for his then live-in companion (they didn't legally marry
until 1859) inspired much of the music.
We have also seen -- in RMO -- Giorgio Germont castigated for his
intervention in his son's love life. Unlike the play in which Duval
appears only one, Piave brings Germont back in the finales of Acts II
and III. Germont's expressions of remorse add to the tragedy. "Qual
figlia m'abbracciata," Violetta pleaded in Act II, and I think,
Germont, at the end does recognize Violetta as his spiritual daughter.
I don't claim LA TRAVIATA is Verdi's best opera, but I shouldn't be
surprised if it is his most beloved.
==G/P Dave
Parterrebox
write LA TRAVIATA.
But somehow I think you made that mawkish bit out of whole cloth. Where in
Verdi's voluminous correspondence is there any hint that Giuseppina "inspired"
LA TRAVIATA?
andre35
emotional
and moral superiors are "making things out of whole cloth," i.e. lying or
inventing.
You're always coiled like an aged worm ready to spit its feeble poison at
its betters. Triste.
AES
"Parterrebox" <parte...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030618142925...@mb-m11.aol.com...
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/18/2003 1:29 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20030618142925...@mb-m11.aol.com>
I recall a letter that Verdi wrote to Antonio Barezzi, the father of Verdi's
first wife.
It extolls Giuseppina: "There is a lady who lives in my house..."
The letter gives a rare glimpse of Verdi's personal life. He is replying to a
note from Barezzi where the latter reproves his son-in-law in terms that must
have been very painful to Verdi.
Barezzi was eventually reconciled to Giuseppina, and i think that may have been
9in the recesses of Verdi's mind as he tackled the opera.
That is a guess on my part. But the operatic scenario does seem to me to
parallel, in part, the personal lives of Verdi, his second wife and his
father-in-law/benefactor.
You could be right in dismissing any such connection with the opera.
==G/P Dave
Parterrebox
Better I think to identify your fantasies as such instead of pretending they
are generally accepted facts.
Lehobe
Giuseppina's sister Barberina. About the Spanish dances inspiring Bizet in
"Carmen's" second act beginning either consciously or subconsciously, well,
that's certainly something to think about! Amazingly, though, the "Amami,
Alfredo" theme was in common currency, since it was written by Donizetti for
"Pia de' Tolomei." I can hear Rosa Ponselle singing that in my mind as well as
the ovation that it received from her Met broadcast recording of 1935 with
Jagel, Tibbett and Panizza conducting. Les
Ancona21
Date: Wed, Jun 18, 2003 2:25 PM
<<There is a charming bit of counterpoint as the violins
twitter around the broad tune sung by the cellos. >>
Whew! Frasier Crane, call your office.
Ancona
Fairynelli
>are generally accepted facts.
You nasty bitch. Everything Dave put forward was qualified as personal
conjecture. Can you just leave your grudges out of it for a change and be civil
just once in your life. I suspect you are far too miserable for that, as your
sad, vicious attacks on people here prove over and over again. Jesus, one can
only imagine what must have happened to you as a child to leave you so
emtionally bereft. I feel sorry for you, but stop taking it out on people who
are infinitely more civil than you have ever managed to be.
Vent over. Apologies to all but one.
Leonard Tillman
> the violins twitter around the broad tune sung
> by the cellos. >>
>Whew! Frasier Crane, call your office.
Good Dr. Crane, - to blasted Hell with your office!
Your presence is urgently requested at the microcosm known as "RMO".
You, along with G/P Dave, can have only positive effects here, with your
estimable knowledge of.....what's that topic, again? ...Oh, yes!
Op...something...isn't it?...uh....OPERA!
By Jove, Zounds, and Gadzooks, that's it!
Best,
LT
(If you could persuade your erstwhile mate, Lilith, and baby-brother
Niles to join in, - that'd be all to the good, btw.)
susurrus III
"andre35" <and...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:cv2Ia.65440$YZ2.226487@rwcrnsc53...
> Somehow Jorden, I think you've little better to do than imply that your
> emotional
> and moral superiors are "making things out of whole cloth," i.e. lying or
> inventing.
> You're always coiled like an aged worm ready to spit its feeble poison
at
> its betters. Triste.
> AES
>
Personally, I think he's suffering from 'tattoo remorse'.
susurrus
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
be typed in news:20030618152113...@mb-m15.aol.com:
Thank you, Niles.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay? http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead: Mark Coy.
REG
"susurrus III" <susu...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:bcqjoh$hm9$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
REG
"Ancona21" <anco...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030618152113...@mb-m15.aol.com...
Ancona21
Star of an American television comedy series. His character is, among other
things, a pretentious wine and opera snob. In that regard, something like your
Inspector Morse.
Ancona
Elizabeth Hubbell
Excuse me. I do not believe that G/P/Dave is a pretentious wine and
opera snob. His crime is that he happens to be an attentive listener
and that he writes in detail on what he hears. He may not always follow
what a bunch of the louder mouths here evidently view as some party
line. I've had just about enough of these loudmouths trying to tear
down any serious and thoughtful OPERA post that is not a crude
one-liner.
Are G/P/Dave's constant infractions of the limited concentration span
around here justification for terming his ways those of a pretentious
wine and opera snob?!
Charming, I must say. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to
rec.music.opera. We have met the trolls, and they are us.
Geoffrey Riggs
www.operacast.com
Elizabeth Hubbell
Excuse me. I do not believe that G/P/Dave is a pretentious wine and
REG
than that guess. I think it's funny that there's an opera snob on
television. Does he ever make jokes about Bocelli?
"Ancona21" <anco...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030618203412...@mb-m18.aol.com...
REG
saying.
"Elizabeth Hubbell" <elizabet...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3EF10DFA...@verizon.net...
AnMeinKlav
intervention in his son's love life. Unlike the play in which Duval
appears only one, Piave brings Germont back in the finales of Acts II
and III.>>
Well, he needed to build up the baritone role. I for one don't find Germont's
appearance at Flora's party very dramatically convincing, however much he is
needed for musical and character reasons.
OTOH, the foursquare, repetitive, hectoring quality of much of Germont's music
in the Act Two, Scene One is a brilliant piece of musical characterization, as
is the much more fluid recitative with which he appears in the finale, already
revealing his change of attitude.
Elizabeth Hubbell
REG wrote:
>
> Was Ancona referring to Dave? I didn't get that at all from what he was
> saying.
I fear he was. His original posting introducing Mr. Crane ran as
follows:
"From: grndp...@aol.com
Date: Wed, Jun 18, 2003 2:25 PM
"<<There is a charming bit of counterpoint as the violins
twitter around the broad tune sung by the cellos. >>
"Whew! Frasier Crane, call your office.
"Ancona"
I can only read this remark of Ancona's (and if I'm reading it wrong,
I'm ready to apologize) as an insulting remark aimed directly at the
sentence
<<There is a charming bit of counterpoint as the violins
twitter around the broad tune sung by the cellos. >>
which happens to have been written by G/P/Dave himself.
Ancona was directly finding an analogy between the attentive nature of
G/P/Dave's sentence characterizing some of Verdi's inspired instrumental
writing in Traviata and the nature of Frasier Crane, who is presented on
TV as a pretentious wine and opera snob.
The insult offered was very clear and utterly inexcusable. But Ancona
is hardly the worst one here. He has merely been infected now by the
rec.music.opera bug, which has turned even regulars like the
knowledgeable and interesting Mr. Jordan and quite a number of others
here into marauding trolls.
Geoffrey Riggs
www.operacast.com
================================================
grndp...@aol.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Parterrebox quite rightly challenges me to produce evidence for my
conjecture that LA TRAVIATA was, in part, inspired by Verdi's personal
relationship with Giuseppina Stepponi.
Here are my findings:
In Charles Osborne's "Verdi: a Life in the Theatre" (Fromm
International Publishing Corporation, New York, 1989) we read on
pagfes 113 – 115:
"In December [1851] he [Verdi] and Giuseppina took themselves off to
Paris for the winter, to escape the bleak weather that the Lombardian
plains would suffer until the end of March, and no doubt also to avoid
the gossip in Busseto. While they were in Paris, Verdi received a
letter from his old benefactor Antonion Barezzi, taking him to task
for not having legalized his union with Giuseppina. He [Verdi]
replied on 21 January, addressing Barezzi as ‘Dearest Father-in-law':
" ‘After waiting such a long time, I hardly thought I would receive
from you a letter so cold, and containing, if I am not mistaken, so
many wounding phrases. If this letter had not been signed Antonio
Barezzi, whom I wish to think of as my benefactor, I should have
replied most strongly, or not have replied at all…..
" ‘In my house there lives a lady, free and independent, who, like
myself, prefers a solitary life, and who has a fortune capable of
satisfying all her needs. Neither I nor she is obliged to account to
anyone for our actions. But who knows what our relations are? What
affairs? What ties? What rights have I over her, or she over me? Who
knows whether she is my wife or not? And if she is, who knows what
the reasons may be for not publicly announcing the fact? Who knows
whether that is a good or bad thing? Might it not be a good thing?
And even if it is a bad thing, who has the right to ostracize us? I
will say this to you, however: in my house she is as entitled to as
much respect as myself, more even. And no one is allowed to forget
that, for any reason. And finally she has every right, both because
of her conduct and her character, to that consideration she habitually
shows to others.' "
Osborne goes on to add: "Presumably Barezzi's response to this was
conciliatory; he was, at any rate, soon on excellent terms with
Giuseppina Strepponi."
---
(1) Violetta's rejoinder to Germont at the latter's entrance in Act II
Scene 1 has the tone (if not some of the words) some of this stern yet
dignified rebuke.
(2) The timing is incredible: Verdi had read the novel "La Dame aux
Camélias," the play not yet having been staged. Within a month,
February 1852, Verdi saw the play and immediately planned an opera
based on it.
(3) The enhanced role of Giorgio Germont seems to me to reflect
something of Barezzi's initial rejection and later acceptance of
Giuseppina.
Be that as it may, this is the only opera Verdi wrote which is
contemporaneous with his own life (although the Fenice Theater in
Venice insisted on backdating the milieu to 1700).
I have seen it argued that Germont's appearance at Flora's party is
strictly for the purpose of having a baritone in the finale.
My opinion is that Germont has to see the consequences of his
intervention. He is abashed at his son's behavior. Germont begins to
perceive the wrong he has done.
The reconciliation at the end of the opera adds to its strength. The
novel and play are no longer viable, yet the opera is evergreen.
Verdi and Piave created, in effect, a new genre: verismo without
violence. LA TRAVIATA is a poignant tragedy that retains its hold on
the public, almost indestructible despite the best (or worst) efforts
of its performers.
==G/P Dave
Parterrebox
rate, the "I am a woman and in my own house" line is lifted from the Dumas
play.
> The timing is incredible: Verdi had read the novel "La Dame aux Camélias,"
the play not yet having been staged. Within a month, February 1852, Verdi saw
the play and immediately planned an opera
based on it.
I don't see how this is "incredible." The novel was a surprise bestseller and
Dumas rushed to complete a stage version while the iron was hot. It is very
natural that, having read the book, anyone should have an increased interest in
a stage adaptation, and why should there be any lag time between Verdi's seeing
a natural and attractive subject for operatic adaptation and his notion of
writing that opera? This is how Puccini conceived the ideas for TOSCA and
MADAMA BUTTERFLY -- does that mean that these operas were "inspired" by the
woman he was living with at the time, or is it simply an example of how the
creative mind reacts to stimulation?
> The enhanced role of Giorgio Germont seems to me to reflect something of
Barezzi's initial rejection and later acceptance of Giuseppina.
How? Germont "accepts" Violetta by the end of their duet together in the sense
that he sympathizes with her. The plot development that Germont is willing to
allow Alfredo to return to Violetta is, again, taken directly from the Dumas
play. And the building up of Germont's role is surely a function of making it
long and grateful enough to attract a star performer. (Otherwise, why the
baritone's dramatically pointless cabaletta?)
I would be willing to go so far as to say that Verdi's attraction to the
unusual source material and his unconventional sexual morality would both the
reflections of some nonconformist streak of his personality, a desire to create
his own rules, say.
But Verdi was obviously very conscious of the delicate position Giuseppina was
in and fiercely protective of her privacy. How in the world can you imagine
that he would deliberately choose a "fallen woman" story on the basis that it
jibed with the biography of the woman he adored?
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/19/2003 9:04 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20030619100447...@mb-m14.aol.com>
<< How in the world can you imagine
that he would deliberately choose a "fallen woman" story on the basis that it
jibed with the biography of the woman he adored?>>
There is, sir, a dark side to Verdi's relationship with Giuseppina. She had
had three children whose father, probably was a tenor named Napoleone Moriani.
One of the conditions Verdi imposed upon Giuseppina was that she never bring
her children into his house.
Giuseppina was undoubtedly a great person, even saintly, but she had a past not
unlike that of Violetta.
As for authoring libretti, Verdi often badgered his librettists frequently
outlining the prose he wanted included, requiring merely that they put it in
rhyme and meter. Piave was frequently bullied by Verdi, but he was very kindly
looked upon by Giuseppina.
The LA TRAVIATA circumstances are interesting in that Barezzi/Verdi exchange of
letters occur only one month before the premiere of Dumas' play and that the
opera was written so quickly thereafter. And, of course, it was not the only
opera he was working on at the time.
As for Puccini, he had dallied with Sardou's "La Tosca" since 1889, not
producing his opera until 1900. Puccini's autobiographical work is found in LA
BOHEME (where he even used some musicfrom his student days) and SUOR ANGELICA
which may have been inspired, in part, because one of his sisters was a nun.
Puccini's relationship with his wife, Elvira, was often quite stormy. She was
unconventional in that she lived with Puccini while actually married to another
man.
==G/P Dave
Parterrebox
"inspired" LA TRAVIATA; the best you can do is point to a few temporal
coincidences.
Since Giuseppina had to abandon her children, why not claim that she is the
inspiration for Azucena as well?
If the best you can do is
> "a past not unlike that of Violetta."
You could say that about the majority of the female professional artists of the
19th century, opera singers included.
> The LA TRAVIATA circumstances are interesting in that Barezzi/Verdi exchange
of letters occur only one month before the premiere of Dumas' play.
And the movie "Glitter" opened the same week as the terror bombing of the World
Trade Center. Coincidence?
The laundry list of factoids you copied and pasted are neither here nor there;
I still say the "Giuseppina inspired La Traviata" notion is sentimental
rubbish.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/19/2003 9:47 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20030619104759...@mb-m14.aol.com>
Would you prefer the circumstances surrounding Verdi's relationship with
Giuseppina Strepponi may have provided the impetus to his writing LA TRAVIATA?
==G/P Dave
Parterrebox
Giuseppina Strepponi may have provided the impetus to his writing LA TRAVIATA?
Actually, no -- what I think is that Verdi's first response to any potential
operatic subject was to look for exciting theatrical situations and what he
called "musicabile" moments or phrases, i.e., bits that seemed to cry out for
musical treatment. In other words, I think Verdi's response was essentially
aesthetic rather than political or personal.
Or, to put it another way, when Verdi saw LA DAME AUX CAMELIAS, I don't think
his response was "Oh, this reminds me of the life of my dear Giuseppina!"
Rather, I think the response was "I can already imagine what this opera will
sound like!"
Ancona21
G/P/Dave's sentence characterizing some of Verdi's inspired instrumental
writing in Traviata and the nature of Frasier Crane, who is presented on
TV as a pretentious wine and opera snob. >>
Absolutely correct. What you characterize as the "attentive nature" of G/P
Dave's sentence I happen to consider pretentious prose. But bear in mind that
while Frasier Crane is indeed a pretentious snob, he is a lovable one who
exhibits an abiding concern for his patients, his calling, and his friends. As
a consequence, we are able to forgive him his annoyingly fatuous attitudes.
Ancona
Ancona21
television. Does he ever make jokes about Bocelli? >>
Not yet. But Frasier did admit to falling asleep during a performance of
EINSTEIN AT THE BEACH, which further endears him to me.
Ancona
Elizabeth Hubbell
Are you aware that by the use of terms like "annoyingly fatuous
attitudes" you may be discouraging others here with less backbone than
G/P/Dave, but with equally acute perceptions, from contributing their
own possibly enlightening reflections to rec.music.opera?
Granted, you may be describing Mr. Crane as ultimately lovable, but that
may still not take away from the unfortunate atmospherics other
potential posters here may pick up all the same. They may still assume
that were they to contribute detailed postings of an analytical sort,
they might be subject to sophomoric ridicule.
In short, you may be risking a partial impoverishment of the few
detailed posts ON OPERA -- thank you very much -- that may still land
here, even today.
Geoffrey Riggs
Ancona21
potential posters here may pick up all the same. They may still assume
that were they to contribute detailed postings of an analytical sort,
they might be subject to sophomoric ridicule. >>
Geoffrey, I welcome "detailed postings of an analytical sort" but not when
couched in dreamy, cliche-ridden purple prose, in itself rhetorically
sophomoric.
In any case, I doubt G/P Dave even noticed--I believe he had his hands full
with James Jorden at the time.
Ancona
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
That's good enough. He has also referred to brother Niles finding a
Flagstad recording of _Götterdämmerung_ in a bargain bin, and their father
once posed as an opera queen to get away from a woman he found annoying.
Elizabeth Hubbell
You miss the issue entirely.
My concern is not primarily G/P Dave, who fortunately is well able to
take care of himself. My primary concern is for others of a similarly
perceptive and articulate bent who, at the same time, may feel more
discouraged than G/P Dave from posting similarly detailed reflections.
The atmospherics here, not just coming from you, who is hardly the worst
offender, but from a whole bunch of other loud mouths here as well, of
whom I am rapidly becoming one alas, will help to further impoverish
this board of the kind of detailed, enthusiastic posts ON OPERA (d'ya
remember opera?) that we used to enjoy here habitually from the likes of
Karen Mercedes, Robert Seletsky, Steven Chung, David Shengold, Linda
Fairtile, Danny Sharples, Martin Bernheimer, Michael Kaye -- I could go
on and on. All of these have left us. Now I wonder why.
It does no good to say "Oh, we can just plonk the posters we don't
like". Rather, a stench is created by engaging the trolls in the first
place and then by aping their behavior in other ways that, in the end,
drives away the interesting, detailed postings. Trollish behavior
attracts the trolls who hijack an interesting thread, who maliciously
forge identities like Karen Mercedes and -- whoever else -- to begin
with, and so on. From that, it's only one step away from chasing away
the thoughtful contributors here altogether.
No amount of plonking will bring back the Karens, the David Shengolds,
the Michael Kayes. Only interesting in-depth threads will do that.
Whether you intend to or not, catty remarks about dreamy, cliche-ridden
purple prose will continue to drive down the numbers of those gutsy
enough to let their enthusiasm inspire them to detailed analyses here on
this board.
Geoffrey Riggs
Leonard Tillman
> potential posters here may pick up all the
> same. They may still assume that were they
> to contribute detailed postings of an analytical
> sort, they might be subject to sophomoric
> ridicule. >>
>Geoffrey, I welcome "detailed postings of an
> analytical sort"
Well, don't we all?
Which is precisely what Dave, in this instance and typically,
provided for the many who are appreciative, and wishing to increase our
enjoyment of...........Opera.
>but not when couched in dreamy,
> cliche-ridden purple prose, in itself rhetorically
> sophomoric.
And who would the arbiter/welcoming committee be?
For now, the non-sophomoric contingent of RMO won't accept Dave's
postings as sophomoric, rhetorically or otherwise, - a dissappointment
he'll surely learn to live with.
Prime examples of cliche-ridden prose, purple or blue, are the dreamy
(if not creamy or seamy), preoccupations of those who choose to make
them so; who see them everywhere at all times. - Those who desire to
find fault, and publicly blurt their repetitious "Eurekas" at every
opportunity, finally resorting to creating them when, alas, they don't
conveniently occur.
>In any case, I doubt G/P Dave even >noticed[....]
In any case, and much likelier, Dave decided it wasn't worth a
response - thus demonstrating a higher level of posting-maturity than
either of us have yet shown.
LT
Leonard Tillman
> performance of EINSTEIN AT THE BEACH,
> which further endears him to me.
>That's good enough. He has also referred to
> brother Niles finding a Flagstad recording of
> _Götterdämmerung_ in a bargain bin, and
> their father once posed as an opera queen to
> get away from a woman he found annoying.
He's fortunate that she didn't turn out to be a fellow opera-queen.
Martin, the elder Crane - probably the most realistic member of an
otherwise Modern Noel Cowardesque sitcom family.
>Matthew B. Tepper
Best,
LT
"Of one thing, you may be absolutely sure:
A clean tie will wind up with the soup du jour."
Oisk17
>RMO tends be a tenor-centric venue, and I doubt that a majority here
>would declare TRAVIATA Verdi's greatest opera.
OK, so I am part of a minority. But I DO consider Traviata Verdi's greatest
opera.
I just wish Alfredo had a different aria to begin act II.
Paul
Paul
Oisk17
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Parterrebox quite rightly challenges me to produce evidence for my
>conjecture that LA TRAVIATA was, in part, inspired by Verdi's personal
>relationship with Giuseppina Stepponi.
(snip) And someone else would not have responded as GPD did, bearing in mind
previous unpleasant exchanges between Parterre Box and GPD. Instead, in the
remainder of this string, we get a wonderful discussion of the history of
Traviata both from Parterre Box, and Grandpa Dave. Well done, both of you!
Paul
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
following letters to be typed in news:8720-3EF223DE-233@storefull-
2276.public.lawson.webtv.net:
>> Frasier did admit to falling asleep during a performance of EINSTEIN AT
>> THE BEACH, which further endears him to me.
> --------------
>> That's good enough. He has also referred to brother Niles finding a
>> Flagstad recording of _Götterdämmerung_ in a bargain bin, and their
>> father once posed as an opera queen to get away from a woman he found
>> annoying.
>
> He's fortunate that she didn't turn out to be a fellow opera-queen.
Perhaps you didn't see the episode -- as a result of that masquerade, he
got introduced to an actual (male) opera queen.
> Martin, the elder Crane - probably the most realistic member of an
> otherwise Modern Noel Cowardesque sitcom family.
Indeed, the common-sense, regular guy in the family.
Fairynelli
>we get a wonderful discussion of the history of Traviata both from Parterre
Box, and Grandpa Dave. Well done, both of you!
Bravo Dave for not being negative or reactive in response to PeeBox's
argumentative put downs, "if this is the best you can do...." and outright
insults " ...sentimental rubbish".
No kudos for Pbox. Just because he was less vituperous than usual, he is so far
behind Dave in exhibiting civil courtesy one even I am, as usual, embarrassed
for our nasty resident gossip. He really should avoid discourse with one as
polite and well meaning and INFORMED as Dave, imo of course.
Leonard Tillman
>(Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net ar
>e forged))
>tapef...@webtv.net (Leonard Tillman)
> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in
> news:8720-3EF223DE-233@storefull-
> 2276.public.lawson.webtv.net:
>Frasier did admit to falling asleep during a
> performance of EINSTEIN AT THE BEACH,
> which further endears him to me.
--------------
>That's good enough. He has also referred to
> brother Niles finding a Flagstad recording of
> _Götterdämmerung_ in a bargain bin, and
> their father once posed as an opera queen to
> get away from a woman he found annoying.
-------------------
" He's fortunate that she didn't turn
out to be a fellow opera-queen. "
>Perhaps you didn't see the episode -- as a
> result of that masquerade, he got introduced
> to an actual (male) opera queen.
That's one of a few I'd missed -- but I should have guessed the
turnabout. His facial/verbal reactions can be easily imagined.
"Martin, the elder Crane - probably the most realistic member of an
otherwise Modern Noel Cowardesque sitcom family. "
>Indeed, the common-sense, regular guy in the
> family.
The boys' general demeanor has been attributed to their
"ultra-classy" Mom. - Chips off the old Blockette, as it were.
She was once portrayed by that fine actress, Nancy Marchand, in an
episode of the show's predecessor, Cheers.
--
skip
"Fairynelli" <fairy...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030619203647...@mb-m16.aol.com...
GRNDPADAVE
He was an associate of Horace Rumpole (of the Bailey).
This fellow actually named his children Tristan and Isolda.
That fellow really knew his opera.
On Star Trek Voyager, the hologram known as "the Doctor" was not only an opera
fan, but he sang as well. He was able, because of his program, to sing the
tenor/baritone duet from DON CARLO (he sang it in Italian).
Of all the Star Trek spinoffs, I thought this was the only one showing any
originality. (I call my wife "7-of-9" -- she thinks that's a rating).
==G/P Dave
Ancona21
purple prose will continue to drive down the numbers of those gutsy
enough to let their enthusiasm inspire them to detailed analyses here on
this board. >>
That's as may be.
Ancona
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
2272.public.lawson.webtv.net:
> From: oyþ@earthlink.net
>
>>(Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged))
>
>> tapef...@webtv.net (Leonard Tillman) appears to have caused the
>> following letters to be typed in news:8720-3EF223DE-233@storefull-
>> 2276.public.lawson.webtv.net:
>
>> Frasier did admit to falling asleep during a performance of EINSTEIN AT
>> THE BEACH, which further endears him to me.
>
> --------------
>> That's good enough. He has also referred to brother Niles finding a
>> Flagstad recording of _Götterdämmerung_ in a bargain bin, and their
>> father once posed as an opera queen to get away from a woman he found
>> annoying.
> -------------------
> "He's fortunate that she didn't turn out to be a fellow opera-queen."
>
>> Perhaps you didn't see the episode -- as a result of that masquerade, he
>> got introduced to an actual (male) opera queen.
>
> That's one of a few I'd missed -- but I should have guessed the
> turnabout. His facial/verbal reactions can be easily imagined.
>
> "Martin, the elder Crane - probably the most realistic member of an
> otherwise Modern Noel Cowardesque sitcom family. "
>
>> Indeed, the common-sense, regular guy in the family.
>
> The boys' general demeanor has been attributed to their
> "ultra-classy" Mom. - Chips off the old Blockette, as it were.
>
> She was once portrayed by that fine actress, Nancy Marchand, in an
> episode of the show's predecessor, Cheers.
And Rita Wilson on the present show, in flashbacks and fantasy sequences.
But continuity from "Cheers" has not been consistent. Frasier once told
his bar buddies that his father was dead, for instance.
Leonard Tillman
"Martin, the elder Crane - probably the most realistic member of an
otherwise Modern Noel Cowardesque sitcom family. "
>Indeed, the common-sense, regular guy in the
> family.
" The boys' general demeanor has been attributed to
their "ultra-classy" Mom. - Chips off the old Blockette, as it were.
She was once portrayed by that fine actress, Nancy Marchand, in an
episode of the show's predecessor, Cheers. "
>And Rita Wilson on the present show, in
> flashbacks and fantasy sequences.
That would be the episode(s) in which Frasier is dating a woman who
happens to be a ringer for his mother at the same age - causing him some
problems in dealing with the resemblance, and his ultimately ending the
relationship before it could really begin.
> But continuity from "Cheers" has not been
> consistent. Frasier once told his bar buddies
> that his father was dead, for instance.
A problem with numerous series.
At this point, it would no longer matter, but in the show's early
stages, the contradiction could have been creatively resolved, we might
suppose..
gerberk
Shengolds,
>>>>the Michael Kayes. Only interesting in-depth >>>>threads will do that.
those operas then get stuck with the "verismo" label to the extent that
even their non-verismo operas were lumped together under that heading.
But I also think that there are characteristics of Verismo operas that
enable works like ANDREA CHENIER, FEDORA, and ADRIANA LECOUVREUR, though
they DO feature aristocratic characters, to still be Verismo, while operas
like MIREILLE and LA VIDA BREVE, though they have a lot of Verismo
characteristics when it comes to plot and character types, are not.
I think one of the main features of Verismo operas is the lack of
artificial refinement of the characters when it comes to their emotional
responses. The aristocrats in Verismo operas act just like everyone else -
there's no distinction drawn by a more restrained, refined way of behaving
and responding, the way there is in earlier (Verdi, Bel Canto, etc.)
operas. These characters, in essence, typify what Verdi himself said about
DON CARLOS - It was a purely domestic story that just happened to be set
in a royal court. Given the presence of the Inquisition in that opera, I'm
not sure I completely agree with Verdi's assessment, but I think what he
was trying to say about DON CARLO *is* true of Verismo opera, whether it's
about Counts and Princesses or about Sicilian peasants and street singers:
the characters all act like "just plain folks", and don't allow their
social role or class prevent them from following their basest instincts
and acting in the roughest (crudest) possible way. One always gets the
sense that the "aristocrats" in Verismo operas are really just peasants in
fine clothes - the exact opposite, in fact, of the noble peasants of
earlier operas who seemed like aristocrats in shabby dress.
Without any restraints, the characters of verismo opera also employ vocal
technique differently - no need to be to refined or self-controlled about
those swoopy portamenti, for example, or creating vocal effects that are
true to the cruder aspects of the character, even if the results are not
aesthetically beautiful. Ditto the compositions themselves, which tend to
use musical effects a bit more crudely - to create unambiguous, unsubtle
emotional impact - i.e., musical effects that are not filtered through
some kind of symbolism glass: once upon a time, for example, fioratura
conveyed a message about the character; in verismo fioratura would be used
only to do what it, on its most literal level, actually does: it shows off
what the voice can do. A verismo Lucia would never pour out her tragic
emotions in a coloratura cadenza. In fact, the only verismo character that
would ever do a coloratura cadenza would be an opera singer character
onstage singing a Bel Canto opera in a scene that called for it.
Interestingly, there are operas that seem ALMOST verismo - like LA VIDA
BREVE. What prevents de Falla's opera from being true verismo, however, is
the very UN-Verismo ending. A Verismo Salud would have committed suicide
by unambiguous means. Literally dying of a broken heart is a very
UNverismo way of "going" - unless it's through starvation over a number of
weeks. Simply dropping dead from sorrow is NOT Verismo. Stabbing one's
self in sorrow is.
So the *realism* of Verismo is really in the HUMANITY of the characters,
not necessarily in the situations. I agree, there is much that is very
unrealistic about the PLOT of Tosca. The people, however, are all very
realistic and very much "plain old folks", despite their titles and job
descriptions. There is no essential difference between Tosca's jealousy
and self-delusion and Santuzza's despite their very different careers and
social circles.
Karen Mercedes
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
________________________________
It's a natural instinct to be
charmed by one's own productions.
- Thomas More, UTOPIA
"Elizabeth Hubbell" <elizabet...@verizon.net> schreef in bericht
news:3EF2209A...@verizon.net...
grndp...@aol.com
The Alfredo problem sheds light, I think, on a problem that Verdi came
near to solving, but never -- imho -- quite accomplished.
That problem is that of depicting the more physical aspects of mature
love. Not until BALLO do we find a love duet in which something more
than mere enthusiasm is registered. And even here, it is the
orchestra that grows ecstatic while Verdi falls back vocally on yet
another cabaletta, "O qual soave brivido."
Alfredo merely expresses an adolescent enthusiasm, but he is scarcely
sensual. You do not get from a Verdi tenor that sexual frisson
Puccini portrays. Take Pinkerton's "Con moto di scogliattalo (sp)"
and you find yourself in a different spiritual world -- much more
intensely suffused with sensuality.
Otello approaches this, but there is such nobility of utterance as to
sublimate the sexual impulse.
Alfredo is a callow sort, yet he does mature into the sensitive
companion we find in Violetta's death scene.
Verdi's tenors, for the most part, are not generally depicted with the
searing conviction of his baritones -- Riccardo, Don Alvaro and Otello
being notable exceptions.
Alfredo makes me think of Don Ottavio, another lover (although
outfitted with more attractive solos) who appears ineffectual.
==G/P Dave
Elizabeth Hubbell
Well, while I concede myself thoroughly confused, having seen precisely
this post under another author's name in another thread, I will play
ball this once just in order to get an interesting discussion going on a
post that really is well thought-through (_whoever_ may have written
it), with many points that really could get a lively and enlightening
exchange going.
Elsewhere, my response to these points has encountered deafening silence
(perhaps because others here have recognized this post as something
plagiarized out of a book[?] and haven't wanted to be associated with
any of the responses?). My presumption is that the same silence may
happen here, but responding to it still seems worth a shot, even though
I have doubts that either Gerberk or Karen Mercedes is the author
(perhaps Renee, the original byline, is not the author either?).
> > I tend to think that certain operas are Verismo, and that the composers of
> > those operas then get stuck with the "verismo" label to the extent that
> > even their non-verismo operas were lumped together under that heading.
True enough. And an additional factor here may simply be chronology:
the musical period in which these works were composed.
> > But I also think that there are characteristics of Verismo operas that
> > enable works like ANDREA CHENIER, FEDORA, and ADRIANA LECOUVREUR, though
> > they DO feature aristocratic characters, to still be Verismo, while operas
> > like MIREILLE and LA VIDA BREVE, though they have a lot of Verismo
> > characteristics when it comes to plot and character types, are not.
> >
> > I think one of the main features of Verismo operas is the lack of
> > artificial refinement of the characters when it comes to their emotional
> > responses. The aristocrats in Verismo operas act just like everyone else -
> > there's no distinction drawn by a more restrained, refined way of behaving
> > and responding, the way there is in earlier (Verdi, Bel Canto, etc.)
> > operas. These characters, in essence, typify what Verdi himself said about
> > DON CARLOS - It was a purely domestic story that just happened to be set
> > in a royal court. Given the presence of the Inquisition in that opera, I'm
> > not sure I completely agree with Verdi's assessment, but I think what he
> > was trying to say about DON CARLO *is* true of Verismo opera, whether it's
> > about Counts and Princesses or about Sicilian peasants and street singers:
> > the characters all act like "just plain folks", and don't allow their
> > social role or class prevent them from following their basest instincts
> > and acting in the roughest (crudest) possible way. One always gets the
> > sense that the "aristocrats" in Verismo operas are really just peasants in
> > fine clothes - the exact opposite, in fact, of the noble peasants of
> > earlier operas who seemed like aristocrats in shabby dress.
Obviously, the poster is on to something. In addition, one might say
that there is a continuum leading to verismo rather than it being simply
a matter of an arbitrary switch being thrown in 1890 with Mascagni's
Cavalleria Rusticana. That's when verismo becomes full-blown, no
question. But I definitely accept both Don Carlos and Traviata as
instances within the continuum leading to verismo in a way that Verdi
(presciently?) anticipated. And yes, "peasants" in earlier operas do
tend to be aristocrats in shabby attire.
> > Without any restraints, the characters of verismo opera also employ vocal
> > technique differently - no need to be to refined or self-controlled about
> > those swoopy portamenti, for example, or creating vocal effects that are
> > true to the cruder aspects of the character, even if the results are not
> > aesthetically beautiful. Ditto the compositions themselves, which tend to
> > use musical effects a bit more crudely - to create unambiguous, unsubtle
> > emotional impact - i.e., musical effects that are not filtered through
> > some kind of symbolism glass: once upon a time, for example, fioratura
> > conveyed a message about the character; in verismo fioratura would be used
> > only to do what it, on its most literal level, actually does: it shows off
> > what the voice can do. A verismo Lucia would never pour out her tragic
> > emotions in a coloratura cadenza. In fact, the only verismo character that
> > would ever do a coloratura cadenza would be an opera singer character
> > onstage singing a Bel Canto opera in a scene that called for it.
The irony is, IMO (and, again, I agree with the poster's point), that
non-bel-canto singers today are more often fobbed off on the public now
in Wagner, for instance, rather than in the full-blown Verismo works (I
hasten to add I would wish that all singers that we hear throughout the
repertoire could be true bel-canto singers who also have the live
feelings for words, interpretation and stage action that is essential in
both Verismo and Wagner, but......).
Allocating - ironically - the less bel-canto-oriented singers to Wagner
rather than verismo is probably due to the simple fact that a whopping
plurality of both the bel canto works and the full-blown verismo works
just happen to be in Italian. So the bel-canto singers get heard more
in the Verismo. But this is an unfortunate reason all the same.
Instead, one sees in Wagner more trills, more agility (vide Kundry in
Parsifal, Act II), more classic-style phrasing, more "aristocratic"
elevation, if you will, in the vocal line than in Verismo.
The poster is right concerning the abandonment of a whole canon of vocal
effects in Verismo. Moreover, while I stated earlier that there was a
continuum toward Verismo leading up to 1890 and Cavalleria as a kind of
summation, such is not the case, IMHO, when it comes to vocal style. In
this latter regard, it strikes me that there is a much more abrupt
break. In fact, Cavalleria really does seem to mark something discrete
and fateful from which there was no turning back. Singing, arguably,
becomes more overtly a form of speech than ever before.
An interesting sidenote here: a good part of Cavalleria's success may
have been due to Gemma Bellincioni's creation of the role of Santuzza.
She was a magnetic artist whose records may show some vocal unevenness,
but whose sense of characterization and vivid communication remains
startling. In fact, coming full circle -- flawed vocal technique et al
-- Verdi was a great admirer of her Violetta in his Traviata.
> > Interestingly, there are operas that seem ALMOST verismo - like LA VIDA
> > BREVE. What prevents de Falla's opera from being true verismo, however, is
> > the very UN-Verismo ending. A Verismo Salud would have committed suicide
> > by unambiguous means. Literally dying of a broken heart is a very
> > UNverismo way of "going" - unless it's through starvation over a number of
> > weeks. Simply dropping dead from sorrow is NOT Verismo. Stabbing one's
> > self in sorrow is.
> >
> > So the *realism* of Verismo is really in the HUMANITY of the characters,
> > not necessarily in the situations. I agree, there is much that is very
> > unrealistic about the PLOT of Tosca. The people, however, are all very
> > realistic and very much "plain old folks", despite their titles and job
> > descriptions. There is no essential difference between Tosca's jealousy
> > and self-delusion and Santuzza's despite their very different careers and
> > social circles.
Here, I might disagree, though only to a small extent. The fact is, in
any operatic genre, we see its share of extravagant plots. The
greatness of 99.9% of all great operas throughout its 400 years is
usually, IMO, the degree to which inspired composers can infuse
otherwise extravagant situations with compellingly human feelings.
This is sometimes done strictly through the brilliance with which
heartfelt composition can use music to convey a compelling, credible
humanity in a larger-than-life character. Only musical geniuses have
this alchemy at their command, of course. And it's these geniuses that
inject a special humanity into their characterizations, no matter how
unpromising the context.
Geoffrey Riggs
www.operacast.com
P.S.: With thanks to The Super-Annuated Ushers and Absentee Men's-Room
Attendants Union for their assistance.
Ancona21
> consistent. Frasier once told his bar buddies
> that his father was dead, for instance >>
And on another occasion made reference to his "biological father," to which
Woody responded, "Wow. A scientist!"
Another inconsistency of sorts, and one relating to opera, is the episode where
Frasier decides to sing an operatic aria (not identified) on a PBS pledge night
instead of his usual "Buttons and Bows" rendition. From the few bars of the
lead-in music Niles plays as they begin to rehearse, it is apparent that the
selection is "Ella mi fu rapita . . . Parmi veder lagrime" from RIGOLETTO, a
tenor aria certainly inappropriate for Frasier, a baritone.
Ancona
Parterrebox
it is apparent that the selection is "Ella mi fu rapita . . . Parmi veder
lagrime" from RIGOLETTO, a tenor aria certainly inappropriate for Frasier, a
baritone.
On the other hand, as vain as Frasier is, he might well thought he could do
justice to this aria. But most likely the piece was chosen because the intro
sounds so very "operatic."
Leonard Tillman
> plays as they begin to rehearse,
>it is apparent that the selection is "Ella mi fu
> rapita . . . Parmi veder lagrime" from
> RIGOLETTO, a tenor aria certainly
> inappropriate for Frasier, a baritone.
And a rather good baritone, at that.
>On the other hand, as vain as Frasier is, he
> might well thought he could do justice to this
> aria.
From the perspective and opera-familiarity of most of his fans, he
probably could have managed it.
Another sitcom opera-snob, vain as well, was Tony Randall's version
of Felix Unger, who sometimes boasted of being his school's first
"child-heldentenor, at age eleven" (!).
>But most likely the piece was chosen
> because the intro sounds so very "operatic."
Best,
donpaolo
DonPaolo
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:7327-3EF...@storefull-2272.public.lawson.webtv.net...
gerberk
good and she knows about Opera a lot.But something tells me you knew
that.Even if that post was signed Pavarotti you would easily recognize Miss
Mercedes.
Now to your second point.You think RMO is inhabited by trolls and fools who
make normal discussion about Opera impossible.
Again you play the fool.
why are you in this forum anyway if you want decent discussions on opera
You could easily join other forums where people show their intellectual or
artistic capabilities in a more decent way
But you dont
Regards
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
to be typed in news:20030620123724...@mb-m11.aol.com:
Given Frasier's petty rages and mood-changes, I'd have thought that
"Cortigiani!" would have been more appropriate.
Elizabeth Hubbell
gerberk wrote:
> why are you in this forum anyway if you want decent discussions on opera
Because sometimes there _are_ some decent discussions here ("Com'e
scritto", for instance), and, despite the aggravation, I believe it is
possible to augment that number if more people of the caliber of Kar.
Mer. et al slowly replace those who have left in disgust (amongst which
I sadly count myself, although I see that was cowardly now and so I'm
here now to stay). That is my hope, and I do not believe it a forlorn
one, even now.
> You could easily join other forums where people show their intellectual or
> artistic capabilities in a more decent way
Oh, but I have: three others, in fact.
Cheers,
Geoffrey Riggs
www.operacast.com
Leonard Tillman
>Hysterical! You made my laugh of the day!
>DonPaolo
But dare we begin to imagine the sound of the Younger Unger? Perhaps
an Alfalfa Switzer squillo?
-- Or, to some tastes, much worse..........a certain...K...
(second intial is early, - alphabetically..)
LT
>"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net>
> wrote in message
>news:7327-3EF...@storefull-2272.pu
>blic.lawson.webtv.net...
"Another sitcom opera-snob, vain as well, was Tony
Randall's version of Felix Unger, who sometimes boasted of being his
school's first "child-heldentenor, at age eleven" (!). "
Best,
Mark D Lew
parte...@aol.com (Parterrebox) wrote:
> Well, to begin with, Verdi didn't write the libretto of LA TRAVIATA. At any
> rate, the "I am a woman and in my own house" line is lifted from the Dumas
> play.
The author of the Traviata libretto is Piave, and Verdi's standard working
relationship with Piave was to be heavily involved in the planning of the
libretto, so that the librettist's task was largely to set the composer's
story ideas into verse.
But even if Verdi had no participation in writing the libretto, the very
fact that he was inspired to request the story and make an opera out of it
would accord with G/P Dave's original assertion that the parallel to events
in his own life inspired him to write the opera.
--
In article <20030619103912...@mb-m01.aol.com>,
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
> As for Puccini, he had dallied with Sardou's "La Tosca" since 1889, not
> producing his opera until 1900. Puccini's autobiographical work is found in LA
> BOHEME (where he even used some musicfrom his student days) and SUOR ANGELICA
> which may have been inspired, in part, because one of his sisters was a nun.
A hearty concurrence with your omission of TURANDOT from this list!
--
My compliments to both Dave and PBox, for engaging in a heated debate which
-- unlike most in this newsgroup -- has remained civil, interesting, and
on-topic.
mdl
Mark D Lew
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
> On Star Trek Voyager, the hologram known as "the Doctor" was not only an opera
> fan, but he sang as well. He was able, because of his program, to sing the
> tenor/baritone duet from DON CARLO (he sang it in Italian).
Curiously, he sang the tenor part, but transposed the whole thing down into
his baritone range. He has did the same thing with several other tenor
arias. One wonder why he didn't just sing the baritone rep.
> Of all the Star Trek spinoffs, I thought this was the only one showing any
> originality. (I call my wife "7-of-9" -- she thinks that's a rating).
Really? I thought all the Star Trek spinoffs showed some originality, and
I would rank "The Next Generation" at the top of them. De gustibus.
mdl
Mark D Lew
tapef...@webtv.net (Leonard Tillman) wrote:
> > RIGOLETTO, a tenor aria certainly
> > inappropriate for Frasier, a baritone.
>
> And a rather good baritone, at that.
I've never seen "Frasier", and "Cheers" only rarely, but I loved Sideshow
Bob's one-man rendition of HMS Pinafore on the Simpsons.
mdl
REG
about the turning point to Verismo.
<grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:85478bcf.03062...@posting.google.com...
> ois...@aol.com (Oisk17) wrote in message
news:<20030619192827...@mb-m21.aol.com>...
> > >
parterre box
> But even if Verdi had no participation in writing the libretto, the very
> fact that he was inspired to request the story and make an opera out of it
> would accord with G/P Dave's original assertion that the parallel to events
> in his own life inspired him to write the opera.
I don't see how that follows. Verdi selected any number of operatic
subjects. Why should this one in particular be perceived as "inspired"
by events in his life?
That's besides the fact that Strepponi was never in any sense a
courtesan or a fallen woman; she was a very important professional
singer and, as such, was Verdi's social equal. Their menage was
unusual only in its relative lack of coyness and for the fact that
they chose to make their home in a small town instead of one of the
big cosmopolitan cities, where such non-marital arrangements were
hardly unusual among artistic types.
Given how ferociously Verdi guarded his and Giuseppina's privacy, it
would seem that he would be more likely to *reject* a subject too
close to his own history, now wouldn't it?
I remember that "Verdi" mini-series had a scene of Verdi and Strepponi
attending a performance of "Dame aux Camelias," and a closeup of her
weeping sympathetic tears, followed by his decision to write the
opera. That's pure fabrication and I think rather revolting
sentimentality.
donpaolo
"Mark D Lew" <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net...
> Curiously, he sang the tenor part, but transposed the whole thing down
into
> his baritone range. He has did the same thing with several other tenor
> arias. One wonder why he didn't just sing the baritone rep.
>
qualifications to have become a world-famous fraud, just like - well, we
know who.
DonPaolo
Mark D Lew
parte...@aol.com (parterre box) wrote:
> I don't see how that follows. Verdi selected any number of operatic
> subjects. Why should this one in particular be perceived as "inspired"
> by events in his life?
>
> [...]
>
> I remember that "Verdi" mini-series had a scene of Verdi and Strepponi
> attending a performance of "Dame aux Camelias," and a closeup of her
> weeping sympathetic tears, followed by his decision to write the
> opera. That's pure fabrication and I think rather revolting
> sentimentality.
I remember the same miniseries, which I believe was based on Charles
Osborne's book, which makes me wonder if the real answer here is not that
G/P Dave invented this idea out of whole cloth (as you suggested earlier)
but rather than Mr Osborne did.
"Revolting sentimentality" is not at all how I would characterize it. I
thought Dave made an interesting and thought-provoking case, but ultimately
I tend to agree with you that any supposed similarity between Strepponi and
Violetta had little to do with Verdi's inspiration for the opera.
My point in joining the argument was not to rebut your conclusion, but
rather to rebut one of your rebuttals. As an incidental argument, you said
that Verdi didn't write the libretto. Even if entirely true, that would be
off-point.
Look at it this way: Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Verdi's
family situation really did closely resemble the plot of Dame aux Camelias.
Suppose also that Verdi has no hand in creating the libretto based on the
play. Would the fact that Verdi did not write the libretto then demonstrate
that his own personal experience was not his inspiration for choosing the
story as a topic? I say it would not.
I'm curious: What do you think of that "Amadeus" business about the
mysterious commission for the Requiem, or the association of the Queen of
the Night with Mozart's mother-in-law? Is that also revolting
sentimentality? To me, that Verdi miniseries is roughly in the same
category. And ditto for the Liu-Manfredi comparisons.
mdl
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/22/2003 4:20 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>
Mark,
There are many unusual aspects regarding LA TRAVIATA.
I do not believe that any of Verdi's operas had quite as short a gestation from
the point where he selected the subject to the world premiere of the opera.
Verdi evidently decided that it was *musicabile* immediately upon seeing the
play in February 1852.
As fas as the libretto is concerned, I think Verdi had a major hand in shaping
it. Alfredo's intervention atthe end of Act I is not indicated at all by
Piave. (Was Verdi thinking of the "Miserere" in TROVATORE where the
combination of off-stage and on-stage soprano worked so well?)
The importance of Germont I find striking. His parallel to Barezzi seems to me
more than coincidental, especially when we see how the operatic version greatly
increases the prominence of this role over that of his counterpart in the Dumas
play.
Violetta is also ennobled to a point of near saintliness. She gives half her
remaining funds to the Carnival revelers and the remainder to Annina. Her
dying thoughts are on Alfredo's future happiness. (Giuseppina seems always to
place Verdi's interests above her own -- how many wives do that?)
If TRAVIATA has blemishes, I am tone deaf to them. There's not a bar of the
opera I would sacrifice, not even the repeats.
==G/P Dave
parterre box
that, he did not compose the actual text to be sung. Of course I know
that Verdi provided a sort of informal scenario for his librettists,
sometimes going so far as to offer a prose draft of some scenes.
However, it was rare that he provided specific wordage, and in the
case of "I am a woman and in my own house" the line pre-existed Verdi
and Piave both. So the coincidence that this line reads a bit like one
of Verdi's letters is almost certainly just that, a coincidence.
And, no, I don't think most composers shape their work to echo details
of their life; rather I think it does happen that a composer may find
a particular scene very "resonant" as a result of some life experience
and therefore may invest the composition with very strong and
particular emotion. But I don't think that the scene generally has so
obvious a plot-driven parallel, e.g., Liu kills herself "because" Dora
Manfredi was driven to suicide.
And, yes, the "Amadeus" motivations are pretty cheap as well, really
like something from a 1940s Warner Bros. biopic.
I think art is a lot more likely to imitate art than life, i.e.,
composers will hear iin another's work some turn of musical phrase or
detail of orchestra color, which they will then work over, change and
build into something "new." For example, Verdi's long fascination with
the structure of the "Coronation Scene" from LE PROPHETE, which
inspired the big central confrontation scenes of his middle period
operas.
Capa0848
>From: grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE)
>Date: 06/18/2003 12:00 PM Pacific
>
>That is a guess on my part. But the operatic scenario does seem to me to
>parallel, in part, the personal lives of Verdi, his second wife and his
>father-in-law/benefactor.
>
>You could be right in dismissing any such connection with the opera.
>
>==G/P Dave
=====================
I think you had it just about right, Dave.
Seeing this thread I was reminded of a discussion Mr Jorden and I had on this
subject a couple of years ago, prompted, as I recall, by an unconventional
production of Traviata, in which Germont was shown, (during the prelude, I
think) leaving Violetta's room after throwing a few bills on the bed:
>Subject: Re: Giorgio Germont
>From: "james jorden" jjo...@bellatlantic.net
>>> But, James, isn't the whole story about social hypocrisy? (I confess that
I have not read the original.)
>-------------
JJ: Well, no. The standards of society are really not questioned anywhere in
the novel or play (or libretto, for that matter). Women should be chaste;
>individual happiness should be subordinate to duty; marriage is the only form
of relationship between man and woman that is feasible in the long run; >women
with a reputation for sexual license will never be accepted by society. No one
questions any of these values.
Pat:
James, with all due respect, IMO the entire story REEKS of sexual hypocrisy.
Violetta is pilloried for engaging in exactly the same behavior that the
gallant young men of Paris engage in.
Perhaps we're talking about two different things; if you are saying that
meither Dumas nor Verdi *meant* to write about sexual hypocrisy, perhaps you
are correct.
Maybe they *were* writing about the sanctity of the marriage bed, and truly
believed that Violetta was a sinner and her consorts were not.
But I don't think so. I think that Verdi understood the nuances of
philandering, of extramarital relationships, and of social opprobrium much
better than you seem to give him credit for. Consider the passage below :
"During the years that Verdi was working on La Traviata, he was struggling with
a personal situation that mirrored his project: his relationship with
Giuseppina Strepponi, a former prima donna. Before they were married, the
villagers in the tiny Italian town where they lived viewed their cohabitation
as immoral and shameful. Their life together (which lasted over fifty years)
influenced one of the most tragic operas of all time."
With this personal experience, how could he not confront (artistically) the
sexual hypocrisy that plagued his own life? And which was, in all likelihood,
much worse for Giuseppina than for him.
Consider, too, if you would, that just two years earlier, he had had his
greatest success to date, creating a strutting, predatory Il Duca de Mantua
(tipping hat to G/P Dave, here). Are you saying that Verdi was oblivious to
*his* nature, too? That in Verdi's mind it was all Gilda's fault that she
wasn't chaste?
Violetta is "La Traviata", the one who has been misled, the one who has been
corrupted. Verdi could well have called her another name, an uglier name, for
a woman who is not chaste. But he did not.
I am happy to accept your statement that Verdi did not intend for us to believe
that GG was Violetta's lover before the action of the play begins; but I will
not concede that traces of the miasma of sexual hypocrisy are not to be found
in every dark corner of this opera.
And those vapors, in my view, invite modern directors to open the door, just a
crack, to explore the noxious mist of hypocrisy from a variety of perspectives.
Regards,
Pat
The pendulum of the mind oscillates between sense and nonsense, not between
right and wrong.
CG Jung "Memories, Dreams, and Reflections"
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
letters to be typed in news:20030622095901...@mb-m12.aol.com:
> If TRAVIATA has blemishes, I am tone deaf to them. There's not a bar of
> the opera I would sacrifice, not even the repeats.
Even "No, non udrai rimproveri"?