Verdi Baritones..
Mike Richter
>
> What exactly is a Verdi Baritone? I have heard that they are very rare and
> valuable...but what exactly are the characteristics of the voice?
>
> matthew herrington
Verdi's music for baritone requires a large voice with particular
carrying power in the top notes - G, A-flat, A. Bel canto focusses on
agility and grace without demanding many, large high notes. Wagner
required volume and bel canto technique, but again not the overriding
top and not as much agility.
Mike
--
mric...@mindspring.com
http://mrichter.simplenet.com
CD-R http://resource.simplenet.com
Opera Snob
Giovanni Ciraso
----------
Nell'articolo <19981001001314...@ng150.aol.com>,
oper...@aol.com (Opera Snob) è stato scritto:
>
>What exactly is a Verdi Baritone? I have heard that they are very rare
and
>valuable...but what exactly are the characteristics of the voice?
Try with Bruson in Ballo in maschera
Giovanni
Christina West
Mike Richter <mric...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Opera Snob wrote:
> > What exactly is a Verdi Baritone? I have heard that they are
> > very rare and valuable...but what exactly are the characteristics
> > of the voice?
> Verdi's music for baritone requires a large voice with particular
> carrying power in the top notes - G, A-flat, A.
??? Where are these notes? For example, Rigoletto's 'G' at 'E
follia!' is not Verdi's, the highest written note in 'Pari siamo' is
'E'. As to 'A's and 'Ab's, Verdi didn't write any of them for
baritone; if you hear them, they are interpolations. As far as I know,
Verdi's highest written note for baritone is F#/Gb.
It would be more accurate to say that Verdi's baritone roles have a
generally high tessitura, and focus round the upper part of the normal
baritone range, between Bb and Eb, with the occasional higher
excursion. This is the same range used by, for example, Donizetti;
the difference being that in Verdi's case, this area of the voice is
used much more relentlessly.
Verdi is happy to take even his basses up to the occasional 'F' -
Phillipe in 'Don Carlos', for example - but the general tessitura of
the role is considerably lower than that of his baritone roles.
--
Christina West
xina on IRC
Email: xi...@argonet.co.uk
Web: www.argonet.co.uk/users/xina/
C. Grose
Mike Richter schrieb in Nachricht <361325...@mindspring.com>...
>Opera Snob wrote:
>>
>> What exactly is a Verdi Baritone
>Verdi's music for baritone requires a large voice with particular
>carrying power in the top notes - G, A-flat, A. Bel canto focusses on
agility and grace without demanding many, large high notes. Wagner required
volume and bel canto technique, but again not the overriding top and not as
much agility.
>Mike
All of the above, but add to that a characteristic dark color. All of
Verdi's baritones, "good" or "bad" seem to have a sinister quality about
them (even Germont, even Ford) , and this dark color, plus the strong high
notes, are something I associate with the term "Verdi baritone."
Cynthia
Mark D. Lew
> ??? Where are these notes? For example, Rigoletto's 'G' at 'E
> follia!' is not Verdi's, the highest written note in 'Pari siamo' is
> 'E'. As to 'A's and 'Ab's, Verdi didn't write any of them for
> baritone; if you hear them, they are interpolations. As far as I know,
> Verdi's highest written note for baritone is F#/Gb.
Your essential point is well-taken -- that is, that what characterizes
Verdi baritone roles is not the occasional G or A, but rather the call for
lots and lots of F's and Gb's.
That said, Verdi does call for some baritone notes above Gb.
The gorgeous G natural in Eri tu ("sul mio seno brillaaaaaaava d'amor") in
Ballo is written by Verdi. Ezio also has G naturals, at the end of his duet
with Attila. Iago has A naturals in his drinking song in the first act. I
suspect there are a few others, but those are the ones that come
immediately to mind.
Those are all written by Verdi. In addition, many of the interpolated Ab's
are so solidly grounded in tradition that their existence is relevant to
the definition of a "Verdi baritone" whether Verdi wrote the notes or not.
mdl
Ed Rosen
Verdi did write many notes above F#-Gb. Iago sings two high A's,
though they are only touched, in the drinking song. When James Morris
did Iago a couple of seasons at the Met, he simply left these notes
out. I was shocked. Not even an attempt.
Renato in Ballo also has a G at the end of his first aria, Ah, la vita.
Di Luna has two G's in Il balen, and about twenty F's! It's a killer.
Rigoletto has some G's in the big duet with Gilda.
And, for me, Bruson was never a real Verdi baritone. No top at all, a
weak bottom, prevented him from being truly exciting in the Verdi
roles.
Warren, Merrill, MacNeil, Bastianini,- these were the great Verdi
baritones of the past 50 years or so.
Best,
Ed
Ed Rosen<legat...@earthlink.net> for free catalog
Legato Classics, Inc.
http://www.legatoclassics.com
Jeffrey Snider
Opera Snob wrote:
> What exactly is a Verdi Baritone? I have heard that they are very rare and
> valuable...but what exactly are the characteristics of the voice?
>
> matthew herrington
There is an interesting discussion of this topic by none other than George
Bernard Shaw (which is quoted on the Milnes "The Baritone Voice" album.) Verdi
tend to write in a much higher tessitura than previous composers. (I will
explain "tessitura" in a later post if necessary.)
It might be helpful to remember that the term "baritone" was just beginning to
be used with regularity in the 19th century. I once read a libretto for the
"Ring" cycle that listed the lower male voice parts as "hoher Bass" and "tiefer
Bass." (Only Fafner, the giant/dragon, was listed under the latter. All the
others were listed under the former.)
Many Verdi baritone roles (most certainly the leading ones) require command of
the top range up to at least the G above middle C. (There are no A-flats written
by Verdi for Baritone, as far as I know, but they are certainly interpolated all
the time!) Verdi baritones are certainly rarer than what I would call
"garden-variety lyric" baritones. i.e. The type of voice that might sing
Malatesta or the Count.
In the German "Fach" system, most Verdi baritone roles fall under the "Charakter
bariton" Fach. (i.e. dramatic, "villain" roles.) A few (Germont and Posa, I
believe, among others) are in the "Kavalier Bariton" Fach. (i.e. more lyric,
"leading man" types.) Some of the heaviest roles are now being sung by
bass-baritones. (Iago and Amonasro, for example.)
I think the term is overused. There are a variety of Verdi baritone roles, and
not every "Verdi baritone" would sing them all. We baritones certainly love
Verdi because almost every opera has a great role for baritone.
Some examples of "Verdi Baritones" (These are simply Baritones who sing or have
sung a lot of Verdi. No recommendation is implied!)
Lawrence Tibbett
Leonard Warren
Robert Merrill
Ettore Bastianini
Cornell MacNeil
Renato Bruson
Sherill Milnes
Giorgio Zancanaro
Leo Nucci
Hope this helps!
--
Jeffrey Snider, DMA
Associate Professor
College of Music
University of North Texas
Denton, TX 76203 USA
dtritter
> not every "Verdi baritone" would sing them all. We baritones certainly love> Verdi because almost every opera has a great role for baritone.
>
> Some examples of "Verdi Baritones" (These are simply Baritones who sing or have> sung a lot of Verdi. No recommendation is implied!)
>
> Lawrence Tibbett
> Leonard Warren
> Robert Merrill
> Ettore Bastianini
> Cornell MacNeil
> Renato Bruson
> Sherill Milnes
> Giorgio Zancanaro
> Leo Nucci
>
> Hope this helps!
>
Add, please:
Robert Weede
Giuseppe Valdengo
Giuseppe Taddei
Chester Ludgin
Geraint Evans
Ingvar Wixell
Heinrich Schlussnus
Alexander Sved
Pavel Lisitsian
dft
Christina West
mark...@earthlink.net (Mark D. Lew) wrote:
> In article <4e9e1f8e48%xi...@argonet.co.uk>, xi...@argonet.co.uk wrote:
> > ??? Where are these notes? For example, Rigoletto's 'G' at 'E
> > follia!' is not Verdi's, the highest written note in 'Pari siamo' is
> > 'E'. As to 'A's and 'Ab's, Verdi didn't write any of them for
> > baritone; if you hear them, they are interpolations. As far as I know,
> > Verdi's highest written note for baritone is F#/Gb.
> Your essential point is well-taken -- that is, that what characterizes
> Verdi baritone roles is not the occasional G or A, but rather the call for
> lots and lots of F's and Gb's.
> That said, Verdi does call for some baritone notes above Gb.
> The gorgeous G natural in Eri tu ("sul mio seno brillaaaaaaava d'amor") in
> Ballo is written by Verdi.
Oops!... indeed it is! No excuse for that mistake.
> Ezio also has G naturals, at the end of his duet with Attila.
I have slightly more justification for this one, as I don't have an
'Attila' score, and assumed the cadential 'G' was an interpolation.
That will teach me not to be dogmatic! Maybe...:)
> Iago has A naturals in his drinking song in the first act.
<blush> Oops again! These 'A's are semiquavers - i.e. not sustained -
OK - I'm nit-picking to save face...:)
I'll go and stand in the corner for half an hour....
> I suspect there are a few others, but those are the ones that come
> immediately to mind.
> Those are all written by Verdi. In addition, many of the interpolated Ab's
> are so solidly grounded in tradition that their existence is relevant to
> the definition of a "Verdi baritone" whether Verdi wrote the notes or not.
And in regard to this, your point is well-taken, too.
drak...@aol.com
style of singing, characterized by strong legato, great emotional
expressiveness, alternation of forceful and sweet singing. Some of the best
were Bastianini, Merrill, and Ruffo.
Howard Hood
In article <19981001001314...@ng150.aol.com>,
oper...@aol.com (Opera Snob) wrote:
>
> What exactly is a Verdi Baritone? I have heard that they are very rare and
> valuable...but what exactly are the characteristics of the voice?
>
> matthew herrington
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
donpaolo
DonP.
drak...@aol.com wrote in article <6v0ldu$fv1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Deborah Overes
Baritone" which you might find interesting. Perhaps your local library or
Chapters store has it. I'd sell you the one at my store, but it's the last
copy and I haven't had time to read it yet :-)
Deborah Overes
The Undiva
Ed Rosen
>
>Powerful, dark voice with good high notes. Singer must be fluent in
Italian
>style of singing, characterized by strong legato, great emotional
>expressiveness, alternation of forceful and sweet singing. Some of
the best
>were Bastianini, Merrill, and Ruffo.
>
>Howard Hood
An excellent, right on the money, description.
Ed
donpaolo
Ed Rosen <lyr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<6uvvbg$c...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>...
And, for me, Bruson was never a real Verdi baritone. No top at all, a
> weak bottom, prevented him from being truly exciting in the Verdi
> roles.
>
Ed -
I tend to agree with you. Bruson did some excellent characterizations:
Nabucco, Macbeth & Falstaff, to name a few. However, to me, his voice
sounded as though he were singing with a sinus infection in its woffiness &
there was a lack of a body to it, as well as a complete absence of the
mandatory top.
I guess we were spoiled by the top notes & vocal heft of Warren, Milnes,
MacNeil, Quilico (Louis, that is).
Regards,
DonP.
David Meadows
> weak bottom, prevented him from being truly exciting in the Verdi
> roles.
Oh jeez, now you're really starting to tread on thin ice, boy!!!
D.M.
PANPERSON
With this list of great Verdi baritones - and I think the lists are good ones -
please include Peter Glossop. He has the same cruelty in his voice that
Gobbi has but it is a much more velvety voice. His pirated recording of
Ernani with Caballe is probably the finest performance I have ever heard of
this role. And the performance is not so badly cut.
DAVID MY COFFEE MUG SAYS: HOLD ME, I AM A FERMATA IT MAKES MY DAY
Ed Rosen
David- please, please, please-- listen to a performance of MacNeil in
Ernani.
Ed
PANPERSON
okay, okay, okay
GRNDPADAVE
>From: "donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com>
>Date: Thu, Oct 1, 1998 19:06 EDT
>Message-id: <01bded90$473b8b00$527aaccf@default>>And, for me, Bruson was never a real Verdi baritone. No top at all, a
>> weak bottom, prevented him from being truly exciting in the Verdi
>> roles.
>>
>
>
>I tend to agree with you. Bruson did some excellent characterizations:
>Nabucco, Macbeth & Falstaff, to name a few. However, to me, his voice
>sounded as though he were singing with a sinus infection in its woffiness &
>there was a lack of a body to it, as well as a complete absence of the
>mandatory top.
>
>I guess we were spoiled by the top notes & vocal heft of Warren, Milnes,
>MacNeil, Quilico (Louis, that is).
Don Paolo very succinctly conveys the essence of the Verdi baritone in his
phrase "top notes & heft".
-
Verdi's baritones unlike Rossini's are commanding in their strong utterances.
A line such as: "Questo'il mio regno: lo ingrandiro!" (Act I, FALSTAFF) is
virtuallly defining of the Verdi baritone. The orchestra virtually boils under
the baritone compelling the rise both in pitch and volume on the part of the
singer. It is very exciting. Rossini may have led the way with William Tell
and his rallying of the cantons in Act II of his underrated masterpiece. But
it was Verdi, in ERNANI, LUISA MILLER and RIGOLETTO who established the
commanding presence of the baritone voice.
Puccini rarely showcased this voice, although Baron Scarpia has his great
moments.
The nearest post-Verdi approximation to the Verdi baritone I think is found in
the role of Tonio (PAGLIACCI) whose Prologo often recalls in its intensity
(though not melodically) Rigoletto's "Pari siamo". Note the similarity of
"Andiam incominciate" and "Ah no, e follia".
==G/P Dave
Frank Schneiders
> > Lawrence Tibbett
> > Leonard Warren
> > Robert Merrill
> > Ettore Bastianini
> > Cornell MacNeil
> > Renato Bruson
> > Sherill Milnes
> > Giorgio Zancanaro
> > Leo Nucci
> >
> > Hope this helps!
> >
>
> Add, please:
>
> Robert Weede
> Giuseppe Valdengo
> Giuseppe Taddei
> Chester Ludgin
> Geraint Evans
> Ingvar Wixell
> Heinrich Schlussnus
> Alexander Sved
> Pavel Lisitsian
>
and (by memory and sure incomplete):
1)
Mattia Batistini
Tita Ruffo
Pasquale Amato
Giuseppe de Luca
2)
Carlo Galeffi
Giuseppe Pacini
Benvenuto Franci
3)
Tito Gobbi (may be not for the voice and faulty top notes but for
incomparable interpretative insights)
Giuseppe Taddei
Mario Sereni
Mario Zanasi
all Italians and much nearer to real Verdian style than most qoted
above.
Frank
Commspkmn
<<dtritter <dtri...@bway.net> wrote:
Also, Apollo Granforte, Gino Bechi, Anselmo Colzani and Nicolae Herlea (on
records at least-I heard his actual performances were variable).
Ken Meltzer
Nicolas De las Penas
There were great Verdi baritones that you are probably forgetting
in your lists:
In the past we find three Italians: Carlo Tagliabue, Ugo Savarese
and Gino Bechi and of course the German Dietrich Fisher Dieskau
(if you do not believe me when I describe Dietrich as a marvelous
Verdi singer, please listen the Rigoletto recording with Bergonzi
and Scotto conducted by Rafael Kubelik or the duets of La Forza
del Destino or Otello that he recorded with Bergonzi conducted by
Jesus Lopez Cobos).
Nowadays, we have the enormous surprise that represent the
Russian singer Dimitri Hvorovstrovsky who is capable to sing "Di
Provenza il mare" in very few "fiatos" and of course making
perfectly all the required tints of this aria at the same time.
Paolo Coni is well suitable for Verdi lyric roles.
I will continue trying to remember more great Verdi baritones.
Nicolás de las Peñas
Madrid - Spain.
Daniel Ivanier
>
>
> And, for me, Bruson was never a real Verdi baritone. No top at all, a
> weak bottom, prevented him from being truly exciting in the Verdi
> roles.
>
> baritones of the past 50 years or so.
>
> Best,
> Ed
>
as Verdi baritones : Gobbi, Capuccilli and even Fischer-Dieskau, even if
I'm sure some of you consider he should stay in the German repertoire (I
love his Rigoletto).
Ed Rosen
How about Piero Cappuccilli? He certainly fits every description.
And he had an incredible extension. I heard him sing high Bb's in
performance that would be the envy of many tenors!
A quick story: in 1976 La Scala visited Washington DC. Carrereas and
Ricciarelli invited me to lunch one day at their apartment at the
Watergate. I arrived, and much to my surprise, Cappuccilli and
Ghiaurov were also there.
We had a lovely lunch, and I managed to keep up with my limited
Italian. Cappuccilli started talking about Verdi baritones. He said
that he thought there were only three real Verdi baritones singing
today (1976) and two were perhaps nearing the end of their careers. He
said they were Merrill, MacNeil, and, modestly, himself. I mentioned
Bruson, and he said no, no no.
Perhaps it was rivalry, but I agreed with him then, and I do now.
Best,
Ed
Ed Rosen<legat...@earthlink.net>
Legato Classics,Inc.
http://www.legatoclassics.com
Daniel Ivanier
>
>
> > Ezio also has G naturals, at the end of his duet with Attila.
>
> I have slightly more justification for this one, as I don't have an
> 'Attila' score, and assumed the cadential 'G' was an interpolation.
> That will teach me not to be dogmatic! Maybe...:)
>
>
manage (it's a sort of scale : C - D - Eb - F - G)
Daniel Ivanier
the bel canto style (Carlo in Ernani) and the last ones (Iago, Ford and
Falstaff). And there are also many differences of coulour between lyric
baritones (Posa) and dramatic ones (Iago again); but many of them are
hybrid (Germont, Renato). I think it's related to the way they
illustrate good (Posa) or evil (Iago). Rigoletto for instance has both
faces. That's why the interpretation must be so various (compare the
aria "pari siamo" with the first duet with Gilda "Veglia o donna").
Daniel
donpaolo
difficult to pinpoint exactly. I know, "on paper" he meets all the
criteria; but there was that "something" that just did not turn me on.
Gobbi was a master, no doubt, but more ideally suited to verismo. Even at
an early age, I do not consider him vocally up to Rigoletto, Carlo (either
one); but his Iago was great.
DFD - no way in Hell can he be considered a "Verdi" baritone. Voice too
thin & too light. Not to say that he, like Gobbi, did not turn in some
fine characterizations (Iago, again); but from a pure vocal standpoint, no
way can he be a Verdi type.
DonP.
Daniel Ivanier <Daniel....@industrie.gouv.fr> wrote in article
<3614DB...@industrie.gouv.fr>...
dtritter
underappreciated, though not underemployed by Bing at the Met. But
Zanasi was a real disaster, worthy of being in a group with Enzo
Sordello (pace, that's an "s," not a "b") and Lorenzo Testi, they of the
meteoric (and merited) disappearances.
Another very competent Verdian was the Welsh baritone Delme Bryn-Jones.
And don't exclude Anselmo Colzani, who gave many pleasurable evenings at
the Met a generation ago.
dft
DAVID A DI LUZIO
donpaolo <donp...@erols.com> wrote in article
<01bdee10$9f449000$692daccf@default>...
> There was something about Cappuccilli that I never cared for - and, it's
> difficult to pinpoint exactly. I know, "on paper" he meets all the
> criteria; but there was that "something" that just did not turn me on.
>
> Gobbi was a master, no doubt, but more ideally suited to verismo. Even
at
> an early age, I do not consider him vocally up to Rigoletto, Carlo
(either
> one); but his Iago was great.
True, but Gobbi makes up for these shortcomings in his acting and superior
inflection. He may not have had the voice but was quite convincing in the
role. This can also be said of his Tonio!
I agree with you on Capucilli as well. Maybe it is a lack of intensity
that you find disquieting. He is fine in my Simone Boccanegra recording and
my Forza but there is something to be desired. He is like Protti,
technically there but missing something as far as passion for the
character.
It was a perfect day today in Philadelphia. I played "The Barber of
Seville" with Gobbi and Callas while at work and it made a great day even
greater.
Cfehlandt
>and of course the German Dietrich Fisher Dieskau
>(if you do not believe me when I describe Dietrich as a marvelous
>Verdi singer, please listen the Rigoletto recording with Bergonzi
To me Fischer-Dieskau is not a Verdi baritone. I've heard those recordings, and
he simply doesn't have the required heft and potent top notes.
Carl F.
donpaolo
studio performance, does not make DFD a Verdi baritone by any stretch of
the imagination.
How does the old Myron Cohen lines go? To your mother you're a captain.
To your father you might be a captain, even. But to a captain, you aint no
captain!
Well, I thought it fitting....
Regards,
DonP.
Cfehlandt <cfeh...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981002154052...@ng23.aol.com>...
donpaolo
role. What superb (never cracked) high notes that man commanded in this
particular role.
DonP.
Ed Rosen <lyr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<6v1big$4...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>...
> In <19981001212513...@ng139.aol.com> panp...@aol.com
> (PANPERSON) writes:
> >
> >
> >With this list of great Verdi baritones - and I think the lists are
> good ones -
> >please include Peter Glossop. He has the same cruelty in his voice
> that
> >Gobbi has but it is a much more velvety voice. His pirated
> recording of
> >Ernani with Caballe is probably the finest performance I have ever
> heard of
> >this role. And the performance is not so badly cut.
> >DAVID MY COFFEE MUG SAYS: HOLD ME, I AM A FERMATA IT MAKES MY DAY
>
donpaolo
DAVID A DI LUZIO <DAVO...@prodigy.net> wrote in article
<01bdee11$a5210020$e74e9cd1@default>...
>
> True, but Gobbi makes up for these shortcomings in his acting and
superior
> inflection. He may not have had the voice but was quite convincing in the
> role. This can also be said of his Tonio!
>
Having witnessed Gobbi many times as Scarpia, Falstaff, Iago, let me assure
you that this man had character & inflection to spare in his voice. He was
a true genius at conveying every nuance that made up a given operatic
personality. Yes, as a matter of fact, I would go so far as to agree with
you as to his Tonio....BUT, during the Prologo, I long for those high notes
of Warren, MacNeil & Milnes...spoiled rotten.
BTW - thus far, a name has been missing from this thread - Leo Nucci.
Perhaps not quite the required heft, but he did some very fine things & had
a great top. I feel that his "eri tu" the finest that I have ever heard,
for example.
And, will someone pleeeeeze relate some Bechi experiences.
Finally, isn't it odd that we (all) appear to be able to debate/discuss
baritones without getting into the fist fights we do when talking about
tenors? Why the Hell is this? Any guesses? I'm serious!
Regards,
DonP
>
Ed Rosen
>
>Finally, isn't it odd that we (all) appear to be able to
debate/discuss
>baritones without getting into the fist fights we do when talking
about
>tenors? Why the Hell is this? Any guesses? I'm serious!
>
>Regards,
>
>DonP
Perhaps it's because there are no baritones around that crack a lot.
Ed
GRNDPADAVE
I haven't seen the name of Matteo Manuguerra. He does a beautiful job on the
Carreras / Sass STIFFELIO. He sings a unique cabaletta: "O gioia
inesprimibile" where nearly the whole aria is sung sottovoce.
-
There were two other Verdi baritones I recall from the New York City Opera:
Lawrence Winters -- who sang a glorious Amonosro (with Serafin conducting) and
Richard Fredericks -- a fine Rigoletto.
-
I understand the limitations of Fischer-Dieskau in this repertory, but I do
enjoy his RIGOLETTO, graced by the single best instance of Verdi conducting I
have ever heard apart from Toscanini.
==G/P Dave
DAVID A DI LUZIO
> BTW - thus far, a name has been missing from this thread - Leo Nucci.
> Perhaps not quite the required heft, but he did some very fine things &
had
> a great top. I feel that his "eri tu" the finest that I have ever heard,
> for example.
I am not familiar with this baritone. Can you recommend a good recording
with Leo Nucci?
> And, will someone pleeeeeze relate some Bechi experiences.
My father loves Bechi, He tells me often that the Italians called him "the
Atom Bomb" during live performances. I have that German company's
recording with Bechi (Lebendige?, We have a very strict spelling code in
the ng so please forgive me ) and he chews up the Rigoletto. His "Piangi
Fanciulla" is so moving that I actually feel sorry for Rigoletto!
Another underrated baritone IMO is Pasquale Amato. I haven't heard much
about him here but he is outstanding. His duet with Caruso (Invano Alvaro)
is earth shattering. I know that Amato does not fit the perameters of the
discussion but I didn't want him to feel left out. :-)
> Finally, isn't it odd that we (all) appear to be able to debate/discuss
> baritones without getting into the fist fights we do when talking about
> tenors? Why the Hell is this? Any guesses? I'm serious!
Well I am somewhat responsible for that because I adamantly believe that
NOBODY is in Enrico Caruso's league, Period. Any comparison to Caruso
immediately draws fire from me. On the other hand, I will never have a
problem with certain people when they laud Ettore Bastianini, Warren and
McNeil. They are superior baritones
P.S Has anyone seen a Tosca recording live from Japan with Guelfi, Poggi
and Tebaldi. Guelfi positively frightens me ! His voice was so beautiful
and full of power that I went out the next day and bought a live recording
of him in "Guilliemo Tell".
donpaolo
GRNDPADAVE <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981002052857...@ng05.aol.com>...
'bout time you threw me a crumb! :>)
Regards,
DonP.
Mark D. Lew
(GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
> The nearest post-Verdi approximation to the Verdi baritone I think is found in
> the role of Tonio (PAGLIACCI) whose Prologo often recalls in its intensity
> (though not melodically) Rigoletto's "Pari siamo". Note the similarity of
> "Andiam incominciate" and "Ah no, e follia".
Oh definitely, but I wouldn't call it an "approximation". Clearly we're
defining "Verdi baritone" as a certain type of baritone role, meaning
something more than simply any baritone role written by Verdi. In that
case, Tonio fits the description (more so, in fact, than some pre-Rigoletto
roles written by Verdi).
Another non-Verdi baritone role that I'd say is a "Verdi baritone" role is
Barnaba in La Gioconda. And though I'm a little more hesitant to apply the
label to anything by Puccini, I'd have to say Michele (Il Tabarro) looks an
awful lot like a Verdi baritone role. Come to think of it, Scarpia comes
pretty close, too.
mdl
donpaolo
Toooo much! LMAO :>))))))
Regards,
DonP.
Ed Rosen <lyr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<6v3due$o...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>...
>
>
> >
> >Finally, isn't it odd that we (all) appear to be able to
> debate/discuss
> >baritones without getting into the fist fights we do when talking
> about
> >tenors? Why the Hell is this? Any guesses? I'm serious!
> >
donpaolo
DAVID A DI LUZIO <DAVO...@prodigy.net> wrote in article
<01bdee2f$a9653de0$e74e9cd1@default>...
Respectfully Snipped
For a really superb Nucci CD, try Bel Canto Arias (London, recorded 1988,
#421 129-2). He does a slew of Rossini, Donizetti, Bellini arias.
However, this music is not the subject of our discussion, I do not know if
his Verdi arias LP was ever reissued on CD. It was a London LP, originally
issued in early 1980's I think. Also there are videos of Forza & Ballo
with Nucci as the baritone lead.
As to Bechi in Rigoletto - how about the "vendetta" duet - God, I thought
he would never get off the "un vindice
avraaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii"...fantastic.
An uncle of mine was a great fan primarily of Ruffo; but had great
affection for both Scotti & Amato also. You would have loved hearing the
Caruso stories that he had to tell (he worked full time during the day, but
managed to get a job running the elevator at the Old Met during the days of
Caruso).
Ora debbo andare via - ciao!
DonP.
Charles Lipson
store. Don't risk your hard earned money on him.
DAVID A DI LUZIO wrote:
> > BTW - thus far, a name has been missing from this thread - Leo Nucci.
> > Perhaps not quite the required heft, but he did some very fine things &
> had
> > a great top. I feel that his "eri tu" the finest that I have ever heard,
> > for example.
>
> I am not familiar with this baritone. Can you recommend a good recording
> with Leo Nucci?
>
> > And, will someone pleeeeeze relate some Bechi experiences.
>
> My father loves Bechi, He tells me often that the Italians called him "the
> Atom Bomb" during live performances. I have that German company's
> recording with Bechi (Lebendige?, We have a very strict spelling code in
> the ng so please forgive me ) and he chews up the Rigoletto. His "Piangi
> Fanciulla" is so moving that I actually feel sorry for Rigoletto!
> Another underrated baritone IMO is Pasquale Amato. I haven't heard much
> about him here but he is outstanding. His duet with Caruso (Invano Alvaro)
> is earth shattering. I know that Amato does not fit the perameters of the
> discussion but I didn't want him to feel left out. :-)
>
> > Finally, isn't it odd that we (all) appear to be able to debate/discuss
> > baritones without getting into the fist fights we do when talking about
> > tenors? Why the Hell is this? Any guesses? I'm serious!
>
> Well I am somewhat responsible for that because I adamantly believe that
> NOBODY is in Enrico Caruso's league, Period. Any comparison to Caruso
> immediately draws fire from me. On the other hand, I will never have a
> problem with certain people when they laud Ettore Bastianini, Warren and
> McNeil. They are superior baritones
>
> P.S Has anyone seen a Tosca recording live from Japan with Guelfi, Poggi
> and Tebaldi. Guelfi positively frightens me ! His voice was so beautiful
> and full of power that I went out the next day and bought a live recording
> of him in "Guilliemo Tell".
--
Charles S. Lipson
The people never give up their liberties
but under some delusion.
Edmund Burke
Mark D. Lew
(GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
> Very interesting point about Barnaba. Imagine what Verdi would have done with
> a lyric such as "O monumento". Ponchielli, instead of writing a precursor of
> the "Credo" barely rises above recitative.
> -
We've been here before, and I basically agree. But in the current
conversation I was thinking of Barnaba as a "Verdi baritone" role more like
Germont, Rodrigo or Carlo in Forza, whereas you seem to want to compare him
to Iago.
> A superb recrudescence of Verdi baritonism (if I can mint a mot) is found in
> the quite stunning "Nemico della patria" where Giordano rises above his usual
> shortwinded melodiousness to write something that is downright noble....
Oh, I'd totally forgotten about Chénier. "Nemico" is a great aria, and so
is the other baritone soliloquy/aria which opens the show. Nemico perhaps
doesn't have the high range that characterizes "Verdi baritone", though the
soliloquy certainly does. (And I'm afraid I don't know any of the rest of
the role other than those two arias.)
> I am not sure I agree about Michele. He is too taciturn. Verdi's baritones
> are not so close-mouthed.
True, but then there's that big outburst at the end.... to me that's truly
Verdian.
mdl
william d. kasimer
> Can you recommend a good recording with Leo Nucci?
No.
Bill
--
William D. Kasimer
wk...@mindspring.com
wk...@juno.com
GRNDPADAVE
>From: mark...@earthlink.net (Mark D. Lew)
>Date: Fri, Oct 2, 1998 18:58 EDT
>Message-id: <markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>
Very interesting point about Barnaba. Imagine what Verdi would have done with
a lyric such as "O monumento". Ponchielli, instead of writing a precursor of
the "Credo" barely rises above recitative.
-
the quite stunning "Nemico della patria" where Giordano rises above his usual
situation is reminscent of Riccardo's signing the order to send Renato back to
"Inghilterra" (the aria is "Ma se me forza perderti") but I think Carlo
Gerard's aria is actually the more impressive one.
-
Verdi was an admirer of Giordano. And one can see why in this great aria.
-
I am not sure I agree about Michele. He is too taciturn. Verdi's baritones
are not so close-mouthed.
Gianni Schicchi does have a bit of Falstaff's mischief. What a beautiful
number Puccini makes of "Addio Firenze". Schicchi, like the typical Verdi
baritone is "owned" by his daughter.
==G/p Dave
DAVID A DI LUZIO
> As to Bechi in Rigoletto - how about the "vendetta" duet - God, I thought
> he would never get off the "un vindice
> avraaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii"...fantastic.
That is terrific! Just reading this post has made my hair (what is left of
it) stand! How about Bechi at the beginning of Chernier. He really
impresses me. He has that Tuscan nasal sound with all that power. I prefer
Bastianini but Bechi really excites me.
> > An uncle of mine was a great fan primarily of Ruffo; but had great
> affection for both Scotti & Amato also. You would have loved hearing the
> Caruso stories that he had to tell (he worked full time during the day,
but
> managed to get a job running the elevator at the Old Met during the days
of
> Caruso).
I have a Caruso story from my Grandfather. He was a cabinet maker in
Camden for RCA. He was a wizard as a carpenter. After purposely slowing
down his manufacturing of cabinets in order to spare the other workers from
having to replicate the time, his bosses were so enraged that they did not
let him watch Caruso record the "Si Pel Ciel" with Ruffo. He always told
that story.
Gaelin
dtritter wrote:
And don't exclude Anselmo Colzani, who gave many pleasurable evenings at
the Met a generation ago.
I remember him well--he actually sang too much of Falstaff but what a
glorious sound!
Celia A. Sgroi
> We have to remember, just because he might have provided a successful
> studio performance, does not make DFD a Verdi baritone by any stretch
> of the imagination.
You're right, and I am not suggesting that F-D was a Verdi baritone (I
don't think he was by any stretch of the imagination) but to set the
record straight, he did sing a great many Verdi roles in the theatre in
Germany, including Posa, Renato, Falstaff, MacBeth, Germont, and Amonasro.
Celia A. Sgroi
State University of New York
College at Oswego
sg...@oswego.edu
GRNDPADAVE
Did I somehow miss these names?
ROLANDO PANERAI - stylish but the possessor of a somewhat "watery" voice
GIUSEPPE TADDEI - a wonderful Falstaff
FRANCESCO VALENTINO - a Met stalwart during the 1940s and 50s
PAOLO SILVERI - a very good Germont and Boccanegra
GEORGE LONDON - not usually considered a Verdi baritone but an excellent
Amonasro nonetheless.
==G/P Dave
Gaelin
and dry as as dust. He was like a juicy Malatesta whom they gave
assignments like Rigoletto--designed to ruin his voice.
donpaolo
not fit in here, being more of a bass-baritone & Taddei had some great
performances as Scarpia, but I don't think he had the toprequired for a
true Verdi baritone.
DonP.
GRNDPADAVE <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981003120708...@ng25.aol.com>...
JJ
<donp...@erols.com> wrote:
I must disagree with Don P. Taddei's top was erratic (though when he was
"on", it could be thrilling), but I think he was one of the very greatest
Verdi baritones, and he's certainly at the top of my list along with De
Luca and a couple of others. Taddei may not have had Bastianini's high
notes, but, to my ears, he was a much more characterful and exciting
singer, who could give incredibly vivid yet subtle portrayals. Much as I
love the sound of Bastianini's voice, he could at times be bland and
simply bulldoze his way through the music. Taddei, IMO, was more musical
and never did anything less than interesting.
Jon
Gaelin
fruity, with the top in perfect shape. Difficult in fact to discern any
difference between the sound onstage and in his 1949 performance--an amazing
piece of singing.
donpaolo
terms of a true lionesque *snarl* - sometimes Bechi used this sound
inappropriately, as in "Di Provenza"; but can you just imagine its hair
raising effectiveness as Scarpia; and, that bit of declamation at the end
of "Nemico della patria"...if I ever heard that live in the theater as a
member of the audience, I would have sailed right out of the
balcony!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Had I been your grandfather, not wild horses could have held me back from
somehow sneaking into hearing that recording session - vergogna sulla testa
del patrone!
Auguri,
DonP.
DAVID A DI LUZIO <DAVO...@prodigy.net> wrote in article
<01bdee4c$512a6520$354a9cd1@default>...
donpaolo
JJ <js...@cornell.edu> wrote in article
<jsj4-03109...@cc409a.clarityconnect.net>...
> In article <01bdef00$d1caa8c0$3e75accf@default>, "
Well, with an endorsement like that, I will do back to the listening booth
& rethink my opinion. I heard Taddei in a live Forza that was terribly
disappointing; the only other live Verdi is that 1950 Otello from Mexico
City, where he is pretty good. It is as scarpia that he stands out - IMO
the third greatest Scarpia I ever heard behind Gobbi & Gobbi!
BTW - Bastianini, despite that truly beautiful sound, never really turned
me on - his top ewas always "suspect" to my ears & he would start out
something beautifully, but then seem to let down & eventually disappoint.
I was spoiled by Warren, I guess.
Regards,
DonP.
Ian Graham
ni...@industrie.gouv.fr> writes
>> And, for me, Bruson was never a real Verdi baritone. No top at all, a
>> weak bottom, prevented him from being truly exciting in the Verdi
>> roles.
>>
>> Warren, Merrill, MacNeil, Bastianini,- these were the great Verdi
>> baritones of the past 50 years or so.
Giorgio Zancanaro had one of the most well-placed "Verdi Baritone"
voices of recent times. He was much better in the theatre than on
records where he can sound a little dull.
IG
--
Ian Graham mailto:i...@robinsg.demon.co.uk
Stregata
Operasnob wrote:
>What exactly is a Verdi Baritone?
And what is exactly a Verdi tenor? Apart from Carlo Bergonzi, who IMO can be
considered the quintessential Verdian tenor, which other tenors vie for the
label? Again IMO, Jose Carreras in his prime made the grade splendidly.
Especially in Verdi, he was second only to Bergonzi.
Stregata
GRNDPADAVE
>From: stre...@aol.com (Stregata)
>Date: Mon, Oct 5, 1998 17:07 EDT
>Message-id: <19981005170758...@ng17.aol.com>
Verdi's tenor roles are far more varied than his baritone roles. I think that
has to do with his evolution from a Rossini / Bellini / Donizetti composer in
his earliest operas. This type of tenor is heard in OBERTO, UN GIORNO DI
REGNO, NABUCCO and I DUE FOSCARI.
-
With ERNANI, Verdi begins to experiment with a more heroic tenor voice. But
this voice must still have agility. This type of voice blossoms in LUISA
MILLER and STIFFELIO.
-
Then Verdi, perhaps influenced by Auber and Meyerbeer, begins to develop a
certain elegance in his tenors. The Duke, Alfredo and Riccardo develop from
this branch of Verdi's tenorial tree.
-
The ERNANI type reaches its fruition in IL TROVATORE.
-
Now the influence of French Grand Opera takes over. Henri (of VEPRES
SICILIENNES) is surpassed by Don Alvaro and Don Carlos. For me, Don Alvaro is
the ultimate Verdi tenor role. He has two wonderful arias (if you count
"Pronti destrieri" as one) plus three magnificent duets with the baritone and a
duet with the soprano as well as the final trio. In the original version there
was even a double aria with a written top "C" (devised for Enrico Tamberlick, a
precursor of Francesco Tamagno).
-
Verdi's most demanding tenor role is found in OTELLO. In FALSTAFF, the lead
tenor, Fenton, really derives his music from Cassio. (Let's not forget Cassio
with his gorgeous "Miracolo vago").
-
Radames is a kind of beefier Manrico. Gabriel Adorno is a somewhat introverted
Don Alvaro.
-
This protean variety of Verdi's tenors virtually precludes any one singer from
fitting a composite profile. Stregata, I think, is right on target in offering
Bergonzi as nearest to fitting this profile.
-
Del Monaco is quite distinguished in the Mitropoulos ERNANI and FORZA as well
as in his numerous OTELLO recordings.
-
Alfredo Kraus has made fine recordings of RIGOLETTO and LA TRAVIATA.
-
Corelli, I think, made an outstanding DON CARLOS with Horst Stein conducting.
-
Bjoerling made beautiful recordings of IL TROVATORE and AIDA.
-
Richard Tucker sang the best Gabriel Adorno I have ever heard. Powerful and
elegant.
-
Lucciano Pavarotti and Placido Domingo have domne quite well by LUISA MILLER.
-
Carreras made an impressive BALLO (with Davis conducting) and he is at his
winsome best in UN GIORNO DI REGNO and I DUE FOSCARI.
-
In sum, there is no "one" Verdi tenor. There are many.
-
On the baritone side, there was a consistency that began with Giorgio Ronconi
(NABUCCO), extending through Felice Varesi (RIGOLETTO, LA TRAVIATA) and ending
with Victor Maurel (OTELLO, FALSTAFF).
-
==G/P Dave
Frank Schneiders
> How about Piero Cappuccilli? He certainly fits every description.
>
Nice story. Yes he is a great Verdi baritone. Not always are the CDs the
best testimonies for this but Simone and Macbeth with Abbado and his
live Attila and the incredible phrases of Posas death are among the best
Verdi recordings.
Frank
Emma Alban
>You're right, and I am not suggesting that F-D was a Verdi baritone but to set
the
record straight, he did sing a great many Verdi roles in the theatre in
Germany, including Posa, Renato, Falstaff, MacBeth, Germont, and Amonasro.
>Celia A. Sgroi>
It's generally on these lists one finds some bias about F-D. In fact he was a
Verdi lyric baritone in the German tradition of Schusnuss, Metternich and
Schwartz. In many regards he is their equal, so long as he's not pushing for
added volume or a darker color. Certainly, the Posa is sung with consummate
skill and great imagination. Perhaps it's finally not VERY Italian -- but a
real Italian like Coni under Muti is awful, and how idiomatic do Chernov and
Milnes sound? Aslo, like the historical German baritones, his Verdi is better
in German. The Traviata extended highlights with Gueden are really gorgeous,
that's pretty close to "Golden Age" singing. But when he does the same role in
Italian (with Lorengar) his sounds rough, gruff and rather phony. In my opinion
his Rigoletto is unique -- one wouldn't judge it by anyone else's standards --
but it's certainly a powerfully executed individual account of a familiar role,
which I find easy to prefer to the more "idiomatic" Nucci, the aging Bruson,
the mush mouthed Pons, or even Bastianini who sounds glorious (with Scotto et
al) and clearly means it, but is rather monotonous.
Emma Albani
Keith Moulton
Well, the simple answer is that a Verdi tenor or baritone is one
who can successfully sing a Verdi role(s). After all, who really needs
this categorization? However, Verdi's case is important because his
writing for voice played a large role in transforming vocal style and thus
technique in the 2nd half of the 19th century.
Although Verdi's demands on the tenor and other voices varied
quite a bit from opera to opera, one can generally say that he wrote in
such a way as to encourage the voice to get fuller and stronger through
the upper passaggio and above, instead of the smaller and brighter sound
that seems to have been the status quo. This results in a more
"realistic" sound, particularly for men, that better approximates
declaimed human speech. Of course, this emphasis on filling in the upper
part of the voice has implications for how high notes and coloratura are
handled. You can't sing in a chesty "manly" ;-) tone up to Aflat, and
then flip into a wimpy head voice for notes above that; there has to be
consistency throughout the range.
So in terms of voice color, passaggio transition and range I would
nominate a tenor who hasn't even been mentioned in this thread, and
indeed, hasn't even sung that many Verdi roles: Neil Shicoff. I think
Verdi would say "that's the sound I have in mind," but upon hearing the
likes of Corelli and Pavarotti would say "but they're even better!"
Best,
--
Keith Moulton.
OperaStuff: http://www.columbia.edu/~km34 email: km...@columbia.edu
GRNDPADAVE
>From: emma...@aol.com (Emma Alban)
>Date: Tue, Oct 6, 1998 16:04 EDT
>Message-id: <19981006160445...@ng95.aol.com>
I think F-D made a wonderful recording of EIN MASKENBALL with Fritz Busch. The
voice was in prime condition.
-
The problem I find with his recordings of RIGOLETTO, MACBETH, DON CARLOS,
OTELLO and FALSTAFF is not with his language but with F-D's tendency to croon.
Verdi's roles call for a large volume of sound, and certainly soft vocal effect
are sometimes called for -- but never crooning.
-
I just listened these past several days to Robert Merrill's Renato as recorded
with Toscanini. I am astounded by the outpouring of mellifluous but always
golden sound. Merrill not always attentive to the drama is very much into this
role. A favorite section of mine is the wonderful Act II trio -- a downright
tarantella -- as Renato seeks to warn Riccardo while the veiled Amelia
shudders. The sense of menace in Merrill's voice is unequalled by F-D.
-
I do, however, enjoy F-D's Rigoletto for its being in tune, variation in volume
and for the wonderful collaborative role he plays -- never seeking to upstage
his partners. But I think the role requires a little more burliness -- such as
provided by the likes of Warren, Gobbi, Bastianini, MacNeil. I find Merrill
much less convincing in this opera than in BALLO.
-
F-D I think is at his near best as the Count in LE NOZZE DI FIGARO. His
Gunther in the Solti GOETTERDAEMMERUNG is as near definitive as I expect to
hear. Yet, how does one explain the hectoring, barking Sachs in the Jochum DIE
MEISTERSINGER?
==G/P Dave
Daniel Ivanier
>
> >
> I just listened these past several days to Robert Merrill's Renato as recorded
> with Toscanini. I am astounded by the outpouring of mellifluous but always
> golden sound. Merrill not always attentive to the drama is very much into this
> role. A favorite section of mine is the wonderful Act II trio -- a downright
> tarantella -- as Renato seeks to warn Riccardo while the veiled Amelia
> shudders. The sense of menace in Merrill's voice is unequalled by F-D.
> -
>
I don't fully agree with you on this point. I've just listened to this
recording, and I think Merrill's voice wonderful but he doesn't seem
very concerned by the role. I much prefer Gobbi (for the interpretation,
not the voice). For "Eri tu", the nicest voice, IMO, is Tagliabue's.