Giulini Le Nozze Di Figaro - cuts?
Sorach Chanthongkaew
to fit it to 2 discs. Where are they?
Looking to get a 3 discs set to; (1) supplant the missing arias, (2) get an
alternative view to Guilini - who I think is a great Mozart opera conductor.
Guilini adds Italianate flair while taking inspiration (dunno if he
confessed this) from Furtwangler, thereby hanging on to the German
structure.
Thinking of the Klieber, Fricsay, or Boehm. Maybe something newer,
Harnoncourt? I think the mentioned fit the condition of being complete. Who
would be Guilini's stylistic counterpoint?
Best.
Margaret Mikulska
Sorach Chanthongkaew wrote:
> I have Giulini's Le Nozze Di Figaro. Believe that there are some aria cuts
> to fit it to 2 discs. Where are they?
Only the usual traditional two cuts: Marcellina's and Basilio's arias.
Most recording, esp. older, skip them.
Giulini's set is tightly packed, with finales split among two CDs, so
that may account for 2 CDs only. There may be also cut in recitativi
secchi; I'm not sure.
> Looking to get a 3 discs set to; (1) supplant the missing arias, (2) get an
> alternative view to Guilini - who I think is a great Mozart opera conductor.
>
> Guilini adds Italianate flair while taking inspiration (dunno if he
> confessed this) from Furtwangler, thereby hanging on to the German
> structure.
In what sense "to the German structure"?
> Thinking of the Klieber, Fricsay, or Boehm. Maybe something newer,
> Harnoncourt? I think the mentioned fit the condition of being complete. Who
> would be Guilini's stylistic counterpoint?
Fricsay is excellent, the liveliest Figaro on record, but he too skips
the two arias. For super-completeness Gardiner is the best: he cuts
nothing and supplies about all alternative versions and arias. (His
"Idomeneo" has all three versions of the Oracle scene - most likely the
only such recording.)
I'd have to check Böhm, but in his times it wasn't customary to include
the two arias. Even less so in Erich Kleiber's times.
-Margaret
--
mikulska at silvertone dot princeton dot edu
Simon Roberts
"Margaret Mikulska" <miku...@europe.com> wrote in message
news:3DBB867A...@europe.com...
>
> I'd have to check Böhm, but in his times it wasn't customary to
include
> the two arias. Even less so in Erich Kleiber's times.
They're both in Boehm's generally admirable second recording on DG, not
on his earlier Philips recording.
Simon
James Tappin
> I have Giulini's Le Nozze Di Figaro. Believe that there are some aria cuts
> to fit it to 2 discs. Where are they?
>
>
I may be off at a tangent here as I only have the original LP set, but as
was normal in the early 1960's Marcellina's and Basilio's Act IV arias were
never recorded, or is there something alse missing as well?
James
--
James Tappin, O__ "I forget the punishment for using
ja...@tappin.me.uk -- \/` Microsoft --- Something lingering
http://www.tappin.me.uk/ with data loss in it I fancy"
Arthur La Porta
Unless I am mistaken, these "cuts" are not made to make the recording
fit, as you suggest. Mozart often wrote alternate arias to suite the
whims of specific performers, and it sometimes doesn't work to put them
all in (at least, such is the case with the Prague and Vienna versions
of Don Giovanni.)
Margaret Mikulska
Andante teneramente wrote:
>
> Margaret Mikulska <miku...@europe.com> wrote:
>
> > I'd have to check Böhm, but in his times it wasn't customary to
> > include the two arias. Even less so in Erich Kleiber's times.
>
> in cui val poco" from the 4th act, Kleiber's recording has them (the
> first one sung by Hilde Gueden, not by the Marzelline).
Yes, the usual suspects. Interesting. Why would he give it to Güden
(who was presumably the Countess?). Thanks.
-Margaret
> "Rosa rosa rosam
> Rosae rosae rosa
> Rosae rosae rosas
> Rosarum rosis rosis"
Nuper rosarum flores.
Simon Roberts
wrote:
>
>Yes, the usual suspects. Interesting. Why would he give it to Güden
>(who was presumably the Countess?). Thanks.
>
No, the Susanna. The Marzelline (Roessl Majdan, if memory serves)
probably couldn't have sung it - which in turn raises the question why
they didn't just find someone else for the role who could.... It sounds
ridiculous to have an entirely different voice pop up for the aria, not
to mention its being the voice of her future daughter-in-law....
Simon
Simon Roberts
>
>Unless I am mistaken, these "cuts" are not made to make the recording
>fit, as you suggest. Mozart often wrote alternate arias to suite the
>whims of specific performers, and it sometimes doesn't work to put them
>all in (at least, such is the case with the Prague and Vienna versions
>of Don Giovanni.)
These aren't alternative arias, though - they're the only arias these
characters get. They're usually omitted because they get in the way of
the action and aren't very good, n'est-ce pas?
Simon
Arthur La Porta
James Kahn
Could they have been "alternative" in the sense that they were put
in to appease the performers rather than because they made sense
artistically? I don't remember the specific story for these arias
(though they have that feeling), but I know that did happen in
some cases.
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Simon Roberts
wrote:
Maybe - I have no idea; but presumably someone reading this does. On the
other hand, are the sort of singer who would have sung that sort of role
likely to have had arias written for them, and if so wouldn't they have
been better (cf the alternative arias in Don Giovanni and, indeed, Figaro
itself)?
Simon
Margaret Mikulska
Simon Roberts wrote:
>
> These aren't alternative arias, though - they're the only arias these
> characters get. They're usually omitted because they get in the way of
> the action and aren't very good, n'est-ce pas?
The two arias in question, Marcellina's and Basilio's are indeed the
only arias given to these two secondary characters; the perception is
indeed what Simon wrote here (although I disagree with it).
But Mozart's operas do have alternative and additional arias. Susanna's
"Deh vieni non tardar" was replaced by K 577 "Al desio, di chi t'adora"
for the Viennese performances in 1789 (the premiere was in 1786); at the
request of the singer who sung Susanna in the revival of the opera. For
the same new series of performances Mozart wrote K 579 "Un moto di
gioia", also for Susanna; this aria, however, doesn't replace - strictly
speaking - any existing aria. Nonetheless, when this aria is included,
another aria by Susanna should be dropped ("Venite, inginocchiatevi").
Since the dramataic situations here are different, this one is not
properly a "replacement" aria. There is also an alternative version of
Figaro's "Aprite un pò quegl' occhi".
"Le nozze" is at least usually performed coherently as far as old and
new arias are concerned, but "Don Giovanni" is usually a mixture of the
Prague and the Viennese versions. For instance, Don Ottavio should sing
only one aria, but almost always both are include (which is musically
fine, but dramatically not very appropriate). The problem was that the
Prague singers weren't as good as those in Vienna and when DonG came to
Vienna, the lead singers requested more spectacular arias.
-Margaret
Jaime J. Weinman
arias:
> On the
> other hand, are the sort of singer who would have sung that sort of role
> likely to have had arias written for them,
There was a sort of unofficial rule that all the singers had to have
at least one aria. FIGARO had nine singers, including two who played
double roles: Figaro, Susanna, Count, Countess, Cherubino, Marcellina,
Basilio/Curzio, Bartolo/Antonio, and Barbarina. They all got arias
(Barbarina, who was apparently played by a very young singer, got a
very small aria, but an aria nonetheless).
Marcellina's aria is, textually, sort of interesting in the sense that
it's the only remaining trace in the opera of her big proto-feminist
speech in the play (which is often cut too, come to think of it).
Jaime J. Weinman
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 10/28/2002 9:03 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <bad94335.02102...@posting.google.com>
I think that a bit of the Cheubino / Susanna duet is cut. It is the presto
that precedes Cherubino jumping out the window to avoid discovery by the Count.
The duet is performed without cuts in the Colin Davis recording.
By the way, aren't both Antionio and Bartolo on stage at the same time during
the Act Two finale?
==G/P Dave
Jaime J. Weinman
>>
>>
>I think that a bit of the Cheubino / Susanna duet is cut. It is the presto
>that precedes Cherubino jumping out the window to avoid discovery by the Count.
>
That number exists in two versions, one with that small cut, one
without. I think the cut may have been made for the Prague production
(perhaps because the number seemed too long for the stage action), but
I'm not sure.
>By the way, aren't both Antionio and Bartolo on stage at the same time during
>the Act Two finale?
>
No. Antonio leaves the stage ("Lasciami, e parti"), and the ensuing
section ("Conoscete, signor Figaro") left just enough time for the
singer to change into his Bartolo costume and come on stage with
Marcellina and Basilio for the last section ("Voi signor, che giusto
siete").
Jaime J. Weinman
Robert Gordon
>By the way, aren't both Antionio and Bartolo on stage
>at the same time during the Act Two finale?
>
No, Antonio is chased out well before the entrance of Marcellina,
Bartolo, and Basilio. They really were portrayed by the same person in
the original cast (Francesco Bussani). Nowadays Antonio usually appears
on stage for the final tutti at the end of Act 4, of course singing in
unison with Bartolo.
-- Rob Gordon
-- Rob Gordon
Matthew B. Tepper
news:20021028114437...@mb-bd.aol.com:
> I think that a bit of the Cherubino / Susanna duet is cut. It is the
> presto that precedes Cherubino jumping out the window to avoid discovery
> by the Count.
>
> The duet is performed without cuts in the Colin Davis recording.
>
> By the way, aren't both Antionio and Bartolo on stage at the same time
> during the Act Two finale?
I think it's too bad Sir Colin's recording of _Don Giovanni_ didn't include
the Zerlina/Leporello duet, if only as a supplement. (Yes, I am aware that
Barenboim's EMI recording included it.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 10/28/2002 1:02 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3DBD89BD...@weinmans.com>
Thank you for the clarification regarding Antonio / Bartolo.
I love the little Cherubino / Susanna duet. It seems to me to have
subsequently provided the inspiration for the lovely presto finale of Mozart's
38th Symphony.
In that symphony there is a phrase that causes me to hear the words and tune of
"non son nulla" (offered by Trabuco in Verdi's Forza -- I wonder if Verdi's
teacher, Vincenzo Lavigna, made the young Verdi copy the score of Mozart's 38th
Symphony).
==G/P Dave
Jaime J. Weinman
>I think it's too bad Sir Colin's recording of _Don Giovanni_ didn't include
>the Zerlina/Leporello duet, if only as a supplement. (Yes, I am aware that
>Barenboim's EMI recording included it.)
>
The Leinsdorf and Solti recordings also included it, and most of the
HIP or HIP-influenced recordings (Gardiner, Norrington, Ostman,
Mackerras) have it as a supplement. More recordings than it deserves,
some might say. :>
Jon A Conrad
>>Could they have been "alternative" in the sense that they were put
>>in to appease the performers rather than because they made sense
>>artistically? I don't remember the specific story for these arias
>>(though they have that feeling), but I know that did happen in
>>some cases.
It's hard to draw a line though -- making sure each singer got at least
one aria was as fundamental to well made opera as making sure that the
acts ended with multi-section ensemble finales. But Mozart generally
handled his challenges so that we can't tell what was convention and what
was inspiration -- that's Mozart. Not this time... would be the feeling of
most audiences.
>Maybe - I have no idea; but presumably someone reading this does. On the
>other hand, are the sort of singer who would have sung that sort of role
>likely to have had arias written for them, and if so wouldn't they have
>been better (cf the alternative arias in Don Giovanni and, indeed, Figaro
>itself)?
The arias aren't terrible or anything; they're quite nice Mozart arias.
The problem is that they're not about anything crucial to the action, the
characters themselves have no crucial part to play in the impending
action, so we get impatient. Me too, usually. But the arias in and of
themselves are perfectly good. Neither is remotely as musically boring as
Giovanni's interminable "Half of you go over here" number, which is never
cut.
Note that the original Basilio doubled Curzio (and Bartolo doubled
Antonio). Giving Basilio and Marcellina arias at this point meant that
every singer in the large cast was supplied with an aria, and that was
evidently an important part of the conventions. Barbarina, being sung by
a 12-year-old girl (or was it 14?), could be fobbed off with an unfinished
arietta.
Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
con...@udel.edu
Jon A Conrad
>>Yes, the usual suspects. Interesting. Why would he give it to Güden
>>(who was presumably the Countess?). Thanks.
>No, the Susanna. The Marzelline (Roessl Majdan, if memory serves)
>probably couldn't have sung it - which in turn raises the question why
>they didn't just find someone else for the role who could.... It sounds
>ridiculous to have an entirely different voice pop up for the aria, not
>to mention its being the voice of her future daughter-in-law....
This is the sort of thing that was occasionally happening in recordings in
those days -- people (like Hilde Roessl-Majdan, yes it was she) would be
cast in secondary roles because they sang them regularly. She was
certainly a solid part of the Vienna Opera ensemble. But then if the
record company or the conductor (probably the former, in this case)
decided that they wanted to restore the cuts, they had 2 choices (1) have
the singer learn the aria; (2) have it sung by someone else. I have no
inside info, but I imagine they tried (1) first -- I wonder if HRM even
recorded a take before they decided it was beyond her (it's very florid
and high). Anyway, if that was out of the question, they did what they had
to do and let their Susanna sing it.
A similar dilemma came up on the Leinsdorf recording a few years later,
and Sandra Warfield told the story in the memoir she cowrote with James
McCracken: She agreed to record Marcellina, a role she had sung at the
Met. And *after* the agreement was made, she was told she'd be doing the
aria. In the end, they had to do some rewriting for her (transposing too,
if memory serves) to get it into the recording at all.
By the time of the next complete FIGARO, DG was able to find a mezzo who
could actually sing the aria (Patricia Johnson). And since then it
generally hasn't been a problem -- a generation of mezzos readying
themselves to sing the Rossini heroines (even if they never actually get
to) will be able to handle this aria.
Actually, the old Gui Glyndebourne recording had a Marcellina capable of
the aria, though they may not have known it. Monica Sinclair later left
recorded evidence of considerable florid capacity and a 3-octave range,
but at that time she was considered just another boomy British alto.