my most overrated opera singer of all time!!
edo...@gmail.com
puzzles me the most is without doubt Sherrill Milnes.
How could this man have such a major career? He never, ever knew how
to sing any of his passaggio notes- Eb, E natural, F, and even F#. His
G's, Ab's, and even higher are fine, but most of a baritones singing
lies lower.
He would make such incredibly ugly sounds around those passaggio
notes, that I couldn't believe it. The lower third of his voice was
very weak, and the middle, for me, barely adequate. There isn't a
baritone I have heard in major roles who I wouldn't take over Milnes.
And I don't just mean Merrill, MacNeil, Cappuccilli (who hated the way
Milnes sang, btw- he told me) but I mean even baritones with much less
of a career. Elvira, Manuguerra, Guarrera, Sereni, Colzani, Ellis,
Sardinero, and others. All of these were contemporaries of Milnes, and
all could sing him under the table, IMO.
But he was tall, etc., and got the recording contracts,and the
publicity that comes attached with this.
I think Milnes was a fraud of a career.
Now, tell me the truth. How many of you thought I was going to name
someone else after reading the header???? Even I thought I was going
to name someone else, but I can't. There is no "great" singer less
deserving of the term than Sherrill Milnes.
Ed
ljo
> someone else after reading the header???? Even I thought I was going
> to name someone else, but I can't. There is no "great" singer less
> deserving of the term than Sherrill Milnes.
>
> Ed>
Personally, I thought you were going to name Richard Tucker.
clem
I liked Milnes better than Sereni. However, I saw Sereni only rather
late in his career.
Paul
ljo
"clem" <labi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:52b052a8-a330-47d1...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Paul>
Was Sereni's voice still HUGER!!!!!! than MacNeill's at that stage of his
career?
ljo
I thought it would be interesting to see whether you are perpetrating this
Milnes fraud on your unsuspecting customers at Pre-schmearOpera. And
unsurprisingly you offer no fewer than 32 items, none of which you paid
Milnes for. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Your unprovoked onslaught on a fine man, a great singer who had a great
career even as you profit from his unremunerated labor is a new low even for
you. You stink, Ed. You owe Sherrill Milnes a public apology here and now.
I loathe you.
ljo
edo...@gmail.com
Well, I certainly would have if I thought the shoe fit, but it
doesn't. Who might you name?
Ed
edo...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Loathing returned! I owe Milnes nothing. You owe me an apology here on
the list. Isn't this an opera list where one can state opinions of
famous singers?
Ed
REG
"ljo" <seniorcu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13measj...@corp.supernews.com...
ljo
low-life who helps himself to the labor of artists and repays them with
public slimings.
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47672fd7$0$7193$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
REG
matter of facts and experience.The only debate would be whether you had, and
in what.
I'd think that if you'd heard Milnes, and understood singing as much as you
say you do, you'd do what was effective, which was to rebut Ed's claims
about Milnes with specifics.
Or, alternatively, you'd give an opinion about Milnes other than glittering
generalities about him.
That might conceivably change someone's mind, or be of interest.
Instead, you resort to pure mud-slinging and name calling, and I am certain
it doesn't change anyone's mind at all.
"ljo" <seniorcu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:13mecp8...@corp.supernews.com...
LT
I like both; two powerful, rich voices, with Milnes having the edge
on volume, and Sereni's the more beautiful of tone. Each was IMO
spectacular at his considerable best.
Cappuccilli seemed somewhat less involved with the lyrics than these
two, but was like them, an always-imposing vocal presence.
Elvira, while of 'medium' baritonal weight and volume, had also
great tonal beauty and what seemed an especially solid technique.
Furthermore, he may have been the most convincing and skilled *actor*
of them onstage, since the days of Warren and Gobbi. My opinions! :)
> Paul
Best
LT
F R
maybe you should wait until the writer's strike is over? your two
attempts at "being" charlie were both bombs.
now once again attacking ed for stating his true feelings about a singer
has met your wrath. are you implicitly saying that it's o.k. for ed to
sell recordings of artists he likes? of course not. you don't like whatt
he does regardless of who the artist is. fair enough.
sorry, but you are losing your edge and your role as the "alpha male"
here is in great jeopardy. you surely can do "beta".
hopefully, the new year will find you in better form. right now you are
disappointing both friend and foe alike.
even charlie doesn't think you are much worthy of responding.
frank
Zeanilover
ED..you and I can HEAR the tremendous problems Milnes had for many
years..the passaggio WAS The Cowardly Lion..i never ever could
understand how the was allowed to sing so long...
Milnes, like Leontyne, had SERIOUS flaws...like my buddy DFD...but
when a person is "legendary" one does not dare talk negatively about
him/her...TOUGH..we tell it as it is..ch
Terry Simmons
<f826102d-738f-4000...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
"premie...@aol.com" <edo...@gmail.com> wrote:
I certainly don't agree with you on any of the points you attempt to
make.
REG
say that one of the few roles I liked him in was Puritani, where he managed
the fioritura very well and had what I thought was a lovely sense of bel
canto line. But I generally found him boring as an interpreter, annoying in
terms of a non-theatrical sense of 'stand amy maybe-deliver', and I thought
that while the size of the voice was good for a lot of his roles, he had a
lot of mannerisms I disliked (including a way of 'woofing' to get into the
top notes) and I thought the tone really had degraded by the mid to late
70s.
I am curious how you hear him, and where you place him among contemporarly
baritones.
Thanks.
"Terry Simmons" <tlst...@tpgi.com.au> wrote in message
news:tlsterry-103B9C...@reserved-multicast-range-NOT-delegated.example.com...
Ken Meltzer
> Asking a question as to whether you've heard him is hardly a debate. It's a
> matter of facts and experience.The only debate would be whether you had, and
> in what.
>
> I'd think that if you'd heard Milnes, and understood singing as much as you
> say you do, you'd do what was effective, which was to rebut Ed's claims
> about Milnes with specifics.
>
> Or, alternatively, you'd give an opinion about Milnes other than glittering
> generalities about him.
>
> That might conceivably change someone's mind, or be of interest.
>
> Instead, you resort to pure mud-slinging and name calling, and I am certain
> it doesn't change anyone's mind at all.
I'm sorry, but when someone dubs a major international singer his
"most overrated of all time," there are not going to be any minds
changed.
Ed is certainly entitled to his opinion (which I always respect, even
when I vehemently disagree). But let's not pretend that some reasoned
discussion here is going to sway anyone off his opinion.
I heard Milnes several times. I agree that, especially toward the
latter part of his career, he had severe vocal problems. Even Milnes
acknowledges this. But I don't know how anyone can listen to his
early recordings (through the mid-70s, let's say), and argue he was
horribly overrated. Okay, I do know, because I read Ed's original
post.
At his best, I found Milnes to be a very exciting, musical singer,
with an attractive, if not particularly subtle, stage presence.
As for why Milnes got so many recording and performance contracts, the
international opera and record companies who signed them would be best
equipped to answer.
Best,
Ken
Ken Meltzer
> ED..you and I can HEAR the tremendous problems Milnes had for many
> years..the passaggio WAS The Cowardly Lion..i never ever could
> understand how the was allowed to sing so long...
> Milnes, like Leontyne, had SERIOUS flaws...like my buddy DFD...but
> when a person is "legendary" one does not dare talk negatively about
> him/her...TOUGH..we tell it as it is..ch
That's fine. But I don't think you should feel entitled to a
"respectful" response when you post something like this on an
unmoderated forum.
Best,
Ken
jszos...@comcast.net
Ed: Several years ago...I posted what I thought of Milnes...to wit:
arrogant...self-indulgent...and not a really pleasant sounding voice.
I was first introduced to him by Tom Peck...chorus master of the Grant
Park Symphony Concerts and someplace else though I can't remember
where. This was when Milnes was making money from him Marlboro Man
commercials (pretty sure that was him)...and I was just starting at
LOC. He seemed a nice fellow...and did study with Peck...which was
enough for me as I respected Mr. Peck very much. I believe he sang
some Grant Park concerts and I do remember meeting him socially on
several other occasions. But unless you could further his career or
were well-placed in some musical organization...he seemed less
inclined to remember you.
The early years of his career was quite good I thought...his bel canto
singing was exemplary and he had a huge range. However when Leonard
Warren died...somehow Milnes got it into his mind that he was the
crown-prince and should be the next Warren. THAT'S what started his
vocal downfall. He began to artificially darken his voice...and
started woofing when he should have been singing...and began loosing
his pitch control. He should have stayed with bel canto...but his
overly inflated ego made him persue the heavier roles. Even at
that...he handled his voice and career with good marketing...along
with the help of well-intentioned people. Consequently he gave some
very exiting performances...as well as some excellent early
recordings...but those kind of things quickly took their tole on what
was once a beautiful voice. To this day I maintain he sang the most
beautiful version of 'Maria' that one could ask for...albeit with
consistantly, dreadfully flat pitch.
This is only my opinion of course...but since I sang chorus to most of
the other baritones you've mentioned...as well as Milnes...for some
decades...I think I have a bit of credibility...and the right to my
opinion as well.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
REG
The question was 'most over-rated singer."
Ed may not have given details as you wanted, but he posted specifically
about a problem he heard...ie the ugly sound in the passaggio.
LJO responded by a personal attack on Ed, and without addressing the
specific issue which Ed had raised.
The discussion may not be 'reasoned' as you would like it, but it was a
matter of opinion without personal attacks until ljo chimed in with a
personal attack on Ed
I believe that recently you expressed a strong opinion about this kind of
thing in the abstract.
Why aren't you cosistent on this point? Why address yourself to me, instead
of to ljo? You don't seem to hesitate in addressing yourself to Charlie, for
example, when he makes personal attacks instead of addressing matters of
content.
Thanks,
Richard
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7fd2296b-c653-4688...@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
REG
assessment of his singing...I had no opportunity to judge him as a person,
but didn't find the stage personna all that convincing.
Best
<jszos...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:46cd61f3-0017-449a...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
wkasimer
> I think you're really side-stepping the issue, Ken.
I think that the "issue" is a much more general one. Why on earth
would *anyone* start a thread, out of the blue, trashing a particular
singer as "most overrated"? It accomplishes nothing whatsoever. As
Ken says, it's not likely to change anyone's mind in either direction,
and is a nearly sure-fire recipe to start a flamewar.
Bill
Ken Meltzer
>
> The question was 'most over-rated singer."
>
> Ed may not have given details as you wanted, but he posted specifically
> about a problem he heard...ie the ugly sound in the passaggio.
>
> LJO responded by a personal attack on Ed, and without addressing the
> specific issue which Ed had raised.
>
> The discussion may not be 'reasoned' as you would like it, but it was a
> matter of opinion without personal attacks until ljo chimed in with a
> personal attack on Ed
>
> I believe that recently you expressed a strong opinion about this kind of
> thing in the abstract.
>
> Why aren't you cosistent on this point? Why address yourself to me, instead
> of to ljo? You don't seem to hesitate in addressing yourself to Charlie, for
> example, when he makes personal attacks instead of addressing matters of
> content.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Richard
I wasn't addressing myself specifically to you, LJO, or to anyone in
particular. I was making a general statement that no minds were going
to be changed in this discussion, for the reasons I stated.
I'm in no position to give LJO's opinion of Milnes as an artist. But
I did give my own, FWIW.
Best,
Ken
Ken Meltzer
> On Dec 18, 8:50 am, "REG" <Richer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think you're really side-stepping the issue, Ken.
>
> I think that the "issue" is a much more general one.
That's what I was trying to say-and I guess, not very well.
Best,
Ken
J.Venning
> No question about this--that person is Maria Callas. And I will tell
> you why.
> To be overrated, you must be highly rated. Many people consider
> Callas the greatest soprano, the greatest opera singer, the singer
> who set standards no one else can match. "Yes, Madame X sang
> beautifully, but she is no Callas." Does Callas live up to this
> hype? No way. Let's look at the facts.
> (snip)
>
A plausible subject to discuss, but sentiments are bound to boil and
insults let loose. Opera is a highly sentimental issue in each of us,
because we are opera lovers; consequently particular singers also tend to be
personal favourites. I know people who actually can't stand Tucker and
Corelli (!!) - no not me. I know people who say that Opera itself is
overrated, because it can't support itself but has to have artificial
life-support system through enormous donations from private and public
funds.
J.
Richard Loeb
Gia<jszos...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:46cd61f3-0017-449a...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
Well with all due respect to Ed even he should admit that his posting is
filled with some subjective opinions that admit neither criticism nor
approval - what else can one call "ugliest sounds". I listened again to
portions of Milnes early recordings - what I hear is a high dramatic
baritone - although it it has nice weight and size, it is basically lighter
in color than one usually hears in the usual Italian baritone roles. The
voice is a firm and evenly produced one with an excitng top around g and a
flat. His early Cosi, Salome and operatic arias album under Guadagno are all
very, how shall I say, "sturdy" both the voice and the interpretations which
were never very subtle. There is no question that he did develop problems
later on (actually not so later on) but I think one has to be careful when
painting with such a large black brush. I guess I'll get into hot water by
saying that even I feel a little uncomfortable that someone so slams an
artist with one hand whilst taking money from his work with the other = it
doesn't seem quite right - Richard
Samurai
does not puzzle me. Both are tall and good-looking, have big voices,
and solid musicianship. Both became stalwarts at the Met about the
same time and this helped launch them on a series of recordings,
films, videos, and concerts that brought their talents to to a world-
wide audience. Certainly there is jealousy in the world of opera and
older tenors and baritones at the Met must have felt slighted by the
attention and professional rewards lavished on Milnes and Domingo.
I have never been a big fan of Milnes (or Warren). Although I
recognize their talent, the quality of their voices does not please
me. This is just a personal preference. Milnes is is extremely
unusual in that his serious vocal problems were the result of a
physical injury to his vocal apparatus (in 1980), described as "leaks
in capillaries of the vocal cords." This injury, compounded by
unsuccessful treatment and further injury, made it physically
impossible for Milnes to sing as he had in the 1970's. It is amazing
to me that despite the damage to his cords, Milnes was able to extend
his major career well into the 1990's, albeit with many cancellations
and subpar performances.
Samurai
On Dec 17, 7:16 pm, "premiereop...@aol.com" <edop...@gmail.com> wrote:
ljo
>> this
>> Milnes fraud on your unsuspecting customers at Pre-schmearOpera. And
>> unsurprisingly you offer no fewer than 32 items, none of which you paid
>> Milnes for. Correct me if I'm wrong.
>> Your unprovoked onslaught on a fine man, a great singer who had a great
>> career even as you profit from his unremunerated labor is a new low even
>> for
>> you. You stink, Ed. You owe Sherrill Milnes a public apology here and
>> now.
>> I loathe you.
>> ljo- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Loathing returned! I owe Milnes nothing. >
I understand that in your parasitical view of the world you owe nothing to
anybody. You are entitled to feed off of the work of others and call them
frauds even as you are selling their work. You are one disgusting bag of
shit.
> You owe me an apology here on
> the list. Isn't this an opera list where one can state opinions of
> famous singers? >
Obviously you can write anything you wish. But only a stupid lowlife ganef
like yourself would bite the hand that feeds him.
ljo
ljo
"F R" <espo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8304-476...@storefull-3312.bay.webtv.net...
Hello Frank.
I'm sorry to have disappointed you again. On the Ed thing, I'm afraid I lost
my normally sweet-tempered disposition seeing a professional thief calling a
professional artist a fraud. Perhaps the new year will find me refreshed,
renewed and more tolerant of the true frauds and those who defend them. But
I doubt it.
ljo
Steve Silverman
"premie...@aol.com" <edo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f826102d-738f-4000...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Of all the big "stars" I have seen in opera in 50 years, the one who
> puzzles me the most is without doubt Sherrill Milnes.
>
> to sing any of his passaggio notes- Eb, E natural, F, and even F#.
I really can't agree with this Ed. I think that "never, ever" is completely
unfounded. You are absolutely correct in respect of his singing from the
point that his vocal troubles kicked in, at the start of the eighties. The
passaggio did indeed become a problem then, as did the development of a
noticeable wobble. However, prior to that, his passaggio singing was just
fine, and evenly integrated into the rest of his voice. You might not like
the quality of the sound, but that is an entirely subjective matter.
Steve Silverman
donpaolo
which I rather liked. I, too, believed that he would be the heir apparent
to the magnificent Leonard Warren, but this was never to be.
The roles requiring in-depth characterization, such as Rigoletto & Iago,
were far beyond his abilities. In fact, he appeared rather silly in these
attempts - his acting approach in skipping around the stage, waving the
jester's wand like a toy sword, in Act 3, was exactly like a silly, spoiled
kid, imitating Warren, who used the wand as a would-be weapon. Milnes as
Iago acted like Bela Lugosi, sneaking behind Otello & making faces & dumb,
childish gestures behind teacher's back.
Yet, all that said, I thought his Boccanegra well-sung & well-played - go
figga that.
For me, my numero uno "most overrated" will always be Domingo. From the
very first series of Don Joses that I witnessed at NYCO, I thought him
nothing more than a journeyman, run-of-the-mill, very ordinary,
second-grade, pushed-up zarzuela baritone. There was nothing special about
his voice itself, which I find unpleasant, with a kind of whiney twang,
along with his tendency to consistently sing hoarse & even worse,
cr-r-r-a-a-a-ck on high notes. His stock interpretations were relatively
the same in whatever role he was undertaking. I have given him every
opportunity to "show me" something "special" & I have been disappointed
virtually every time.
Of all the scores of performances I have heard & seen with Domingo, I can
recall only 2 in which I was impressed - the televised Luisa Miller was one.
I thought that either he has finally "come around", or that perhaps I was
wrong about him. The very next radio broadcast of L. Miller, however,
reinforced my negative feelings about him, because he returned to
mediocrity. I recall the filmed Tales of Hoffman (the one w/Geraint Evans),
in which I thought PD was pretty fine.
Well, someone posed the question....
DonPaolo
"premie...@aol.com" <edo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f826102d-738f-4000...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Of all the big "stars" I have seen in opera in 50 years, the one who
> puzzles me the most is without doubt Sherrill Milnes.
>
> How could this man have such a major career? He never, ever knew how
Samurai
I agree about Milnes' acting--ridiculous and horrible. Some director
should have beaten him with a stick until he eliminated the silent
movie ham acting. Domingo is a superior actor and in roles such as
Otello and Hoffmann really brilliant.
Samurai
> DonPaolo"premiereop...@aol.com" <edop...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f826102d-738f-4000...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Of all the big "stars" I have seen in opera in 50 years, the one who
> > puzzles me the most is without doubt Sherrill Milnes.
>
> > How could this man have such a major career? He never, ever knew how
> > to sing any of his passaggio notes- Eb, E natural, F, and even F#. His
> > G's, Ab's, and even higher are fine, but most of a baritones singing
> > lies lower.
>
> > He would make such incredibly ugly sounds around those passaggio
> > notes, that I couldn't believe it. The lower third of his voice was
> > very weak, and the middle, for me, barely adequate. There isn't a
> > baritone I have heard in major roles who I wouldn't take over Milnes.
> > And I don't just mean Merrill, MacNeil, Cappuccilli (who hated the way
> > Milnes sang, btw- he told me) but I mean even baritones with much less
> > of a career. Elvira, Manuguerra, Guarrera, Sereni, Colzani, Ellis,
> > Sardinero, and others. All of these were contemporaries of Milnes, and
> > all could sing him under the table, IMO.
>
> > But he was tall, etc., and got the recording contracts,and the
> > publicity that comes attached with this.
>
> > I think Milnes was a fraud of a career.
>
> > Now, tell me the truth. How many of you thought I was going to name
> > someone else after reading the header???? Even I thought I was going
> > to name someone else, but I can't. There is no "great" singer less
> > deserving of the term than Sherrill Milnes.
>
> > Ed- Hide quoted text -
Placido Milnes
>
> - Show quoted text -
The "passaggio"? What is this passaggio? Do tell us more about the
mysterious passaggio.
Placido Milnes
Angus Prune
> mysterious passaggio.
> Placido Milnes
Tell us please do.
Sherrill Domingo
Steve Silverman
"donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:kMidnZDDPpO8lfXa...@rcn.net...
>
> For me, my numero uno "most overrated" will always be Domingo.
Who would ever have guessed?
Steve Silverman
edo...@gmail.com
wrote:
> "premiereop...@aol.com" <edop...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Sorry, but I don't agree,Steve. If you have access to it, please
listen to the Met Luisa Miller broadcast from 1968. Milnes sings some
of the flatest and unpleasent sounding Eb's and F's that I have heard,
and this was way before his "crisis."
I was also at his Met debut, same night of Caballe's debut, Dec 22,
1965. He was ok, but even then I remember a thickness on the same
passaggio notes, which worsened as early as the above stated broadcast
in 1968.
Just my opnion, of course, but if anyone cares to listen to Miller's
opening cavatina, I think you will hear exactly what I mean.
Best wishes,
Ed
dixfun
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
I do not understand why you have started a thread attacking this
retired and much-loved singer.
I saw him years ago in a Met Macbeth with Grace Bumbry, Fraco Corelli
and Ruggero Raimondi and a Covent Garden Trovatore with
Caballe, Carlo Cossutta and Irina Arkipova. Both of those evenings
were unforgettable and he was magnificent - his singing of "Pieta,
rispetta, amore" in Macbeth and "Il balen" in Trovatore, very
beautiful and lyrical. He made a lot of recordings I enjoy and
sometimes he could be a bit bland, seemingly only wanting to be
"beefy" and "macho", but he does not deserve to be trashed as you are
doing here.
I don't know what you are balthering on about with ugliness in the
passagio, I certianly did not hear anysuch thing when I heard him live
in the '70's.
I have to agree with previous posters' comments - it is really
despicable of you to launch an unprovoked attack on a singer and at
the same time make a living by selling "pirated". ie stolen, recorded
performances of that smae singer. Of course you do the same with
Domingo.
You are a person of zero integrity and should be ashamed. Anyone who
has any sense of decency or honor would shun you for the scum you are.
ljo
of Tucker and Merrill. That is why he smears and claws Domingo and Milnes at
every turn. It was only last year that he posted a similar attack on Milnes,
and his negative Domingo posts are in the high hundreds, if not thousands.
His contempt for these two fine artists does not prevent him from peddling
unauthorized recordings by the zillions, if not fewer. It's one thing to
express one's genuine opinion of a singers merits. Why else call Milnes a
FRAUD? The man sang over 650 performances in lead roles at the
Metrofuckingopera fercryingoutloud! If that's fraud will somebody tell me
what it is that that hack Rosen is running at Preschmear Mockera?
ljo
"dixfun" <strongb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0eb154b1-0a46-4b4f...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Zeanilover
> Yes. And I'm not interested in a debate with you. My issue is with the
> low-life who helps himself to the labor of artists and repays them with
> public slimings.
>
> "REG" <Richer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:47672fd7$0$7193$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>
>
>
> > Did you ever hear him?
>
> > "ljo" <seniorcubrepor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >news:13measj...@corp.supernews.com...
> >>> Of all the big "stars" I have seen in opera in 50 years, the one who
> >>> puzzles me the most is without doubt Sherrill Milnes.
>
> >>> How could this man have such a major career? He never, ever knew how
> >>> G's, Ab's, and even higher are fine, but most of a baritones singing
> >>> lies lower.
>
> >>> He would make such incredibly ugly sounds around those passaggio
> >>> notes, that I couldn't believe it. The lower third of his voice was
> >>> very weak, and the middle, for me, barely adequate. There isn't a
> >>> baritone I have heard in major roles who I wouldn't take over Milnes.
> >>> And I don't just mean Merrill, MacNeil, Cappuccilli (who hated the way
> >>> Milnes sang, btw- he told me) but I mean even baritones with much less
> >>> of a career. Elvira, Manuguerra, Guarrera, Sereni, Colzani, Ellis,
> >>> Sardinero, and others. All of these were contemporaries of Milnes, and
> >>> all could sing him under the table, IMO.
>
> >>> But he was tall, etc., and got the recording contracts,and the
> >>> publicity that comes attached with this.
>
> >>> I think Milnes was a fraud of a career.
>
> >>> Now, tell me the truth. How many of you thought I was going to name
> >>> someone else after reading the header???? Even I thought I was going
> >>> to name someone else, but I can't. There is no "great" singer less
> >>> deserving of the term than Sherrill Milnes.
>
> >>> Ed>
>
> >> this Milnes fraud on your unsuspecting customers at Pre-schmearOpera. And
> >> unsurprisingly you offer no fewer than 32 items, none of which you paid
> >> Milnes for. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> >> Your unprovoked onslaught on a fine man, a great singer who had a great
> >> career even as you profit from his unremunerated labor is a new low even
> >> for you. You stink, Ed. You owe Sherrill Milnes a public apology here and
> >> now.
> >> I loathe you.
>
> - Show quoted text -
THANKS for helping to keep the peace here..it is really heart=warming
to know you care about all of us...ch
Zeanilover
> ljo,
> maybe you should wait until the writer's strike is over? your two
> attempts at "being" charlie were both bombs.
>
> now once again attacking ed for stating his true feelings about a singer
> has met your wrath. are you implicitly saying that it's o.k. for ed to
> sell recordings of artists he likes? of course not. you don't like whatt
> he does regardless of who the artist is. fair enough.
>
> sorry, but you are losing your edge and your role as the "alpha male"
> here is in great jeopardy. you surely can do "beta".
>
> hopefully, the new year will find you in better form. right now you are
> disappointing both �friend and foe alike.
> even charlie doesn't think you are much worthy of responding.
> frank
I always judge people by ..not necessarily that they have to "hear
what I hear' but by their experience and knowledge..but I tell
you....so much of the time I AGREE WITH ED...I tend to feel "HE
KNOWS!!!"..and that of course is a compliment to both of uis....CH
Zeanilover
> I remember that you'd posted this, and I generally agree with your
> assessment of his singing...I had no opportunity to judge him as a person,
> but didn't find the stage personna all that convincing.
>
> Best
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
It is really not hard to understand ED...(and ME)..just LISTEN to a
later "Eri tu" and LISTEN to the "delle lacrime MIEI"...before the Eri
Tu..it is all there to hear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(BERT LAHR)
Zeanilover
It is always an interesting thread..and LOOK at the many varied
responses.....to give an honest opinion....and that is why this is a
really successful post...agree or not...."Trashing" is not the same as
"giving an honest evaluation' which is what Ed did.....CH
Zeanilover
> Rosen has a determined and single-minded agenda of protecting the 'legacies'
> of Tucker and Merrill. That is why he smears and claws Domingo and Milnes at
> every turn. It was only last year that he posted a similar attack on Milnes,
> and his negative Domingo posts are in the high hundreds, if not thousands.
> His contempt for these two fine artists does not prevent him from peddling
> unauthorized recordings by the zillions, if not fewer. It's one thing to
> express one's genuine opinion of a singers merits. Why else call Milnes a
> FRAUD? The man sang over 650 performances in lead roles at the
> Metrofuckingopera fercryingoutloud! If that's fraud will somebody tell me
> what it is that that hack Rosen is running at Preschmear Mockera?
>
> ljo
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
It is always an interesting thread..and LOOK at the many varied
alanwa...@aol.com
>
> Sorry, but I don't agree,Steve. If you have access to it, please
> listen to the Met Luisa Miller broadcast from 1968. Milnes sings some
> of the flatest and unpleasent sounding Eb's and F's that I have heard,
> and this was way before his "crisis."
>
> I was also at his Met debut, same night of Caballe's debut, Dec 22,
> 1965. He was ok, but even then I remember a thickness on the same
> passaggio notes, which worsened as early as the above stated broadcast
> in 1968.
>
> Just my opnion, of course, but if anyone cares to listen to Miller's
> opening cavatina, I think you will hear exactly what I mean.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't know about Mr Milnes and I don't think I have ever heard him
but everyone, orchestra included, can fuck up on Eb F or any other
notes or combination of same that you care to mention but are you
saying he did this every time he sang these notes?
Are you saying he fucked up every single night and stayed in the
business?
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Zeanilover
> I think you're really side-stepping the issue, Ken.
>
> The question �was 'most over-rated singer."
>
> Ed may not have given details as you wanted, but he posted specifically
> about a problem he heard...ie the ugly sound in the passaggio.
>
> LJO responded by a personal attack on Ed, and without addressing the
> specific issue which Ed had raised.
>
> The discussion may not be 'reasoned' as you would like it, but it was a
> matter of opinion without personal attacks until ljo chimed in with a
> personal attack on Ed
>
> I believe that recently you expressed a strong opinion about this kind of
> thing in the abstract.
>
> Why aren't you cosistent on this point? Why address yourself to me, instead
> of to ljo? You don't seem to hesitate in addressing yourself to Charlie, for
> example, when he makes personal attacks instead of addressing matters of
> content.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Richard
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
LJO only wants to do what he has done from the start...."Be able to be
known as the biggest troublemaker here."
Samurai
tremendous exaggeration or even absurd claims come to the fore. On
the other hand, I have no problem with someone who attacks a singer
for specific reasons, except that when the writer goes beyond stating
personal opinions, the claimed facts must be verifiable. Certainly a
singer can be faulted for bad intonation. Milnes is represented in
many videos and CDs and whether he was chronically flat can be
verified. I agree with Alan's implication that bad problems of
flatness in performance after performance would probably be
inconsistent with the very big career that Milnes enjoyed for many
years. But I do not object to anyone saying, "I do not like Mr. X's
voice" or "I don't care for Madame Y's singing."
Samurai
On Dec 18, 6:03 pm, "alanwatkin...@aol.com" <alanwatkin...@aol.com>
wrote:
>
> I don't know about Mr Milnes and I don't think I have ever heard him
> but everyone, orchestra included, can fuck up on Eb F or any other
> notes or combination of same that you care to mention but are you
> saying he did this every time he sang these notes?
>
> Are you saying he fucked up every single night and stayed in the
> business?
>
> Kind regards,
> Alan M. Watkins- Hide quoted text -
Samurai
at Milnes, a successful rival of Ed's friend and favorite baritone
Merrill, and at Domingo, a successful rival of Ed's friend and
favorite tenor Tucker. In this circumstance, one can wonder whether
personal, cultural, or religious bias may be playing a role in the
harsh assessments.
Samurai
wkasimer
> Trashing" is not the same as
> "giving an honest evaluation' which is what Ed did.....CH
The two are hardly mutually exclusive, and Ed managed to do both
simultaneously.
Bill
Richard Loeb
news:3851166a-aa0e-420d...@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
line - when you say the voice is ugly, his career was a fraud (!), and he
got his contract because he was tall (!!!) then its way too much no matter
how much detail is added in and cheapens the totally effort, I think.
Richard
F R
"personal, cultural or religious bias"...this is unintentionally funny
samurai. "personal" yes. all opinions are "personal. "cultural" huh? and
lastly you are implying of course that ed prefers tucker and merrill
over milnes and domingo because they are jewish, right?
btw, even i know domingo and tucker were hardly "rivals" since their
careers barely overlapped.
ed has praised to the sky, amongst others, gigli, boniselli, and corelli
and carreras when they were at their peak. maybe they were all closet
jews?
frank
Ken Meltzer
> btw, even i know domingo and tucker were hardly "rivals" since their
> careers barely overlapped.
I wouldn't describe the period in which their careers overlapped in
that fashion. Domingo started singing professionally in the early
1960s, and he made his Met house debut in 1968. Tucker continued to
sing at the Met until his death in early 1975.
Best,
Ken
Ken Meltzer
> ed has praised to the sky, amongst others, gigli, boniselli, and corelli
> and carreras when they were at their peak. maybe they were all closet
> jews?
>
I don't think Ed has praised Bonisolli to the skies. But I'd be
delighted to find out that he (Bonisolli) was Jewish!
Best,
Ken
Samurai
singers who shared his New York background might be a factor in his
disparaging their main rivals at the Met. Ed has mentioned, for
example, that Tucker was pissed at Domingo for allegedly not thanking
the older tenor for allegedly getting him the Ernani opening night at
La Scala. According to Ed, Tucker thought that his recommendation of
Domingo to La Scala was decisive in launching the Spaniard's
international career (seems absurd doesn't it?). Much of Ed's
criticism of Domingo has consisted of saying that he was inferior to
Tucker. The rivalry seems clear, yes, yes?
When Domingo and Milnes began appearing at the Met, they attracted a
great deal of press and were given a number of assignments which older
Met singers might have wanted.
Samurai
REG
were Galli-Curci and Miss Anderson. Both had terrible intonation, G-C even
in the first (pre-goiter) part of her career, and Miss Anderson throughout
her career, and yet they were two of the most popular and succsessful
concert artists, and Galli's opera career, until the goiter and the surgery,
was second to none.
There is simply nothing inconsistent with saying that a singer has poor
intonation and saying that they have a major career.
It's specious reasoning to say that because Milnes had a major career, it is
inconsistent with a very big career.
"Samurai" <samu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:12caa733-4f94-4b04...@p1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
REG
possible...in fact, it happens, that you can have major intonation problems
and still have a major vocal career.
And look at all the commments that have been made on this board, for example
about Tebaldi, by David Gable, about her intonation throughout her range, as
he heard it, and yet he never questioned whether she had a big career.
I just don't think the two things are really tied together in singing
(intonation and size of career).
Best
Richard
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:65d21866-7be0-4ad3...@w40g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
REG
Domingo and Milnes, and it would be as meaningless.
"Samurai" <samu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:f8dab0d2-0970-4d2d...@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
REG
Not I...
Ed really doesn't need defense from us on this, I don't think.
"F R" <espo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23708-47...@storefull-3313.bay.webtv.net...
REG
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3c7185a8-a6a3-49fc...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
REG
"donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:kMidnZDDPpO8lfXa...@rcn.net...
> My exposure to Milnes in the theater was largely limited to his early
> work, which I rather liked. I, too, believed that he would be the heir
> apparent to the magnificent Leonard Warren, but this was never to be.
>
> The roles requiring in-depth characterization, such as Rigoletto & Iago,
> were far beyond his abilities. In fact, he appeared rather silly in these
> attempts - his acting approach in skipping around the stage, waving the
> jester's wand like a toy sword, in Act 3, was exactly like a silly,
> spoiled kid, imitating Warren, who used the wand as a would-be weapon.
> Milnes as Iago acted like Bela Lugosi, sneaking behind Otello & making
> faces & dumb, childish gestures behind teacher's back.
>
> Yet, all that said, I thought his Boccanegra well-sung & well-played - go
> figga that.
>
> For me, my numero uno "most overrated" will always be Domingo. From the
> very first series of Don Joses that I witnessed at NYCO, I thought him
> nothing more than a journeyman, run-of-the-mill, very ordinary,
> second-grade, pushed-up zarzuela baritone. There was nothing special
> about his voice itself, which I find unpleasant, with a kind of whiney
> twang, along with his tendency to consistently sing hoarse & even worse,
> cr-r-r-a-a-a-ck on high notes. His stock interpretations were relatively
> the same in whatever role he was undertaking. I have given him every
> opportunity to "show me" something "special" & I have been disappointed
> virtually every time.
>
> Of all the scores of performances I have heard & seen with Domingo, I can
> recall only 2 in which I was impressed - the televised Luisa Miller was
> one. I thought that either he has finally "come around", or that perhaps I
> was wrong about him. The very next radio broadcast of L. Miller, however,
> reinforced my negative feelings about him, because he returned to
> mediocrity. I recall the filmed Tales of Hoffman (the one w/Geraint
> Evans), in which I thought PD was pretty fine.
>
> Well, someone posed the question....
>
> DonPaolo
> "premie...@aol.com" <edo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f826102d-738f-4000...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> Of all the big "stars" I have seen in opera in 50 years, the one who
>> puzzles me the most is without doubt Sherrill Milnes.
>>
>> How could this man have such a major career? He never, ever knew how
REG
"wkasimer" <wkas...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3851166a-aa0e-420d...@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
REG
the passaggio, and I think that only Samurai and Loeb bothered to answer the
point....no one else did if I recall this fascinating topic.
The point is that Ed made a comment about a singer, however critical, and
not about the people supporting the singer. Responses to him from several
posters were as if Ed had been attacking them.
Perhaps there are a lot of people on this group who simply can't express
their own opinions on singers, particularly singers of the last 50 years.
THAT"s the problem, not that Ed expressed an opinion.
"wkasimer" <wkas...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1722fd80-648f-46dd...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 18, 8:50 am, "REG" <Richer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think you're really side-stepping the issue, Ken.
>
REG
Another weapon of mass destruction swallowed by Samurai
"Samurai" <samu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:42d94591-ab76-4d72...@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Ken Meltzer
> Maybe because he believes it. Ed gave specifics about Milnes problems with
> the passaggio, and I think that only Samurai and Loeb bothered to answer the
> point....no one else did if I recall this fascinating topic.
>
> The point is that Ed made a comment about a singer, however critical, and
> not about the people supporting the singer. Responses to him from several
> posters were as if Ed had been attacking them.
>
> Perhaps there are a lot of people on this group who simply can't express
> their own opinions on singers, particularly singers of the last 50 years.
> THAT"s the problem, not that Ed expressed an opinion.
Really?
Which people who responded to Ed's original post are incapable of
expressing their own opinions about singers-of the past fifty years,
or otherwise?
Best,
Ken
Samurai
specifically expressed doubt about those comments. In this case, as
with Domingo, Milnes' perfomances are well documented. Many
recordings and videos can be examined to determine whether Milnes was
chronically flat in the passaggio, both before, as well as after, his
vocal problems beginning in 1980. I don't listen to Milnes very much
and so I cannot point to evidence, pro or con. Plus I don't really
care.
Samurai
On Dec 18, 8:55 pm, "REG" <Richer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe because he believes it. Ed gave specifics about Milnes problems with
> the passaggio, and I think that only Samurai and Loeb bothered to answer the
> point....no one else did if I recall this fascinating topic.
>
> The point is that Ed made a comment about a singer, however critical, and
> not about the people supporting the singer. Responses to him from several
> posters were as if Ed had been attacking them.
>
> Perhaps there are a lot of people on this group who simply can't express
> their own opinions on singers, particularly singers of the last 50 years.
> THAT"s the problem, not that Ed expressed an opinion.
>
> "wkasimer" <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1722fd80-648f-46dd...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Dec 18, 8:50 am, "REG" <Richer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I think you're really side-stepping the issue, Ken.
>
> > I think that the "issue" is a much more general one. Why on earth
> > would *anyone* start a thread, out of the blue, trashing a particular
> > singer as "most overrated"? It accomplishes nothing whatsoever. As
> > Ken says, it's not likely to change anyone's mind in either direction,
> > and is a nearly sure-fire recipe to start a flamewar.
>
> > Bill- Hide quoted text -
Zeanilover
> On Dec 18, 11:24 am, "Steve Silverman" <ssilv...@btopenworld.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:f826102d-738f-4000...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Of all the big "stars" I have seen in opera in 50 years, the one who
> > > puzzles me the most is without doubt Sherrill Milnes.
>
> > > How could this man have such a major career? He never, ever knew how
> > > to sing any of his passaggio notes- Eb, E natural, F, and even F#.
>
> > unfounded. You are absolutely correct in respect of his singing from the
> > point that his vocal troubles kicked in, at the start of the eighties. The
> > passaggio did indeed become a problem then, as did the development of a
> > noticeable wobble. However, prior to that, his passaggio singing was just
> > fine, and evenly integrated into the rest of his voice. You might not like
> > the quality of the sound, but that is an entirely subjective matter.
>
> > Steve Silverman
>
> listen to the Met Luisa Miller broadcast from 1968. Milnes sings some
> of the flatest and unpleasent sounding Eb's and F's that I have heard,
> and this was way before his "crisis."
>
> I was also at his Met debut, same night of Caballe's debut, Dec 22,
> 1965. He was ok, but even then I remember a thickness on the same
> passaggio notes, which worsened as early as the above stated broadcast
> in 1968.
>
> Just my opnion, of course, but if anyone cares to listen to Miller's
> opening cavatina, I think you will hear exactly what I mean.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes...now going back even to early Milnes..and the Luisa was
wonderful..you hear the BEGINNING of his inability to negotiate the
notes around E,F...and of course he made fame eventually from his
staying power and "name." Like Price, Callas,etc...the NAME became
"unouchable' as to being criticized negatively..which is foolish.
This is MOSTLY a great thread....but remember Bollmann exists ONLY to
cause trouble....what else does he have in life????
Zeanilover
> Are you saying he fucked up every single night and stayed in the
> business?
>
REG
bcasts, from the 70s and some of the earlier non MET stuff, I've been
genuinely surprised (and posted here) about his not being at the top of his
form even then. I know he had that throat problem, but I don't hear a lot of
the stuff earlier as being so good. But like you on this, he's not a singer
I much care about, and his acting was comical....if you ever saw his Onegin,
at the last moment he seemed to get down on his knees and swing his arms
out....he may not have actually gotten down on one knee, but the house
really giggled (at rather the wrong time, and the wrong opera) because it
looked like he was going to do an Al Jolson routine.
"Samurai" <samu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:acbfa36e-42da-4963...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
Steve Silverman
> Sorry, but I don't agree,Steve. If you have access to it, please
> listen to the Met Luisa Miller broadcast from 1968. Milnes sings some
> of the flatest and unpleasent sounding Eb's and F's that I have heard,
> and this was way before his "crisis."
>
No, I don't have that recording, Ed, but I am happy to accept your
evaluation of it. I do however have virtually all of the studio recordings
he made prior to 1980, and a number of the live ones ( I would go as far as
to say that his Macbeth under Karl Boehm is the best recording I have heard
of that work). I also saw him in his all too few appearances at Covent
Garden. Allowing for subjective differences in taste when it comes to vocal
quality, his singing is just fine in all of them. The myth of his passaggio
problems does not become a reality until after his vocal crisis set in. Even
then he was capable of excellent things, albeit intermittently. His
performance in the Ernani DVD from the Met is an outstanding case in point.
Other performances captured on video from the eighties are less
satisfactory. His Boccanegra begins weakly but improves greatly after the
Prologue. His Conte di Luna, however, is poor all the way through.
Nevertheless, his prime, albeit short, was indeed a golden one, and his
place in my list of top five singers remains secure.
Steve Silverman
ljo
The Opera Clown wrote:
> This is MOSTLY a great thread....but remember [ljo] exists ONLY to
> cause trouble....what else does he have in life????>
There is COWFOG. There will always be COWFOG. I hear that Linn is close to a
final decision on your Throne Room.
Placido Milnes
> > Are you saying he fucked up every single night and stayed in the
> > business?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
So what is this mysterious passaggio and what's it all about? Is it
some kind of trade secret or what? So why don't you tell us how it is
that you and Ed do such a masterful job of it, and how and why poor
Milnes was such a pathetic failure? And where can I get recordings of
you and Ed whipping through the passaggio like a dose of salts through
Nellie's goat? Or could it be that you and Ed are just a couple of
shifty ignorant blowhards who aren't worth a pimple on Milnes's ass?
Placido Milnes
clem
> samur...@bellsouth.net (Samurai)
Thank you for that response, Frank. You beat me to it!
This discussion led me back to my collection of no-longer-viewed VHS
tapes. I know that I have a movie version of Tosca in there, but I
can't find it. However, I recall that I generally liked Milnes's
performance as Scarpia. I enjoyed his singing when I heard him live,
as well.
I have not have access to the Luisa Miller broadcast that Ed cites,
but I do appreciate the specific reference.
On the other issue, I don't think that Ed's business practices in any
way disqualify him from commenting positively or negatively on opera
performances. If his catalog listed Luisa Miller with the blurb "Great
performance by Milnes..." that would be hypocracy, but I have his
catalog, and can't find a positive opinion on Milnes therein.
The notion that Ed's opinion on Milnes is affected by Milnes's
"rivalry" with Merrill is absurd. They were not rivals; their careers
barely overlap.
Ken points out that Domingo and Tucker were both at the Met from 68 to
75 - sure, but one was near the end of a great career and the other at
the beginning - they were not "rivals."
Paul
edo...@gmail.com
> When Ed has an ax to grind, his usual fairness goes out the window and
> tremendous exaggeration or even absurd claims come to the fore. On
> the other hand, I have no problem with someone who attacks a singer
> for specific reasons, except that when the writer goes beyond stating
> personal opinions, the claimed facts must be verifiable. Certainly a
> singer can be faulted for bad intonation. Milnes is represented in
> many videos and CDs and whether he was chronically flat can be
> verified. I agree with Alan's implication that bad problems of
> flatness in performance after performance would probably be
> inconsistent with the very big career that Milnes enjoyed for many
> years. But I do not object to anyone saying, "I do not like Mr. X's
> voice" or "I don't care for Madame Y's singing."
>
> Samurai
>
> On Dec 18, 6:03 pm, "alanwatkin...@aol.com" <alanwatkin...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > but everyone, orchestra included, can fuck up on Eb F or any other
> > notes or combination of same that you care to mention but are you
> > saying he did this every time he sang these notes?
>
> > business?
>
> > Alan M. Watkins- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
What you say, Jake, is too absurd for me to even answer, except to say
you couldn't be more wrong, and perhaps some bigotry is showing in
your post.
To all, there was a thread about most overrated singers that garnered
a lot of posts. So I decided to write about my most overrated singer,
That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. I gave reasons, and I will
stick by my opinion. You are welcome to your opinion, and I am welcome
to mine.
ljo is simply a troublemaker, as he has proved often during the past
two relatively peaceful weeks. So say want you want, little jimmy,
this will be my one and only follow up.
Ed
Ken Meltzer
> Ken points out that Domingo and Tucker were both at the Met from 68 to
> 75 - sure, but one was near the end of a great career and the other at
> the beginning - they were not "rivals."
>
> Paul
Paul-
I don't particularly like the term "rivals," but both artists were
leading tenors at the Met during this period.
Best,
Ken
jrw
> Well some people say Gigli was a fascist <smirk>
>
> Not I...
>
> Ed really doesn't need defense from us on this, I don't think.
>
>
> news:23708-47...@storefull-3313.bay.webtv.net...
>
> > samur...@bellsouth.net (Samurai)
> > One might note that Ed's strongest criticisms of singers are directed at
> > Milnes, a successful rival of Ed's friend and favorite baritone Merrill,
> > and at Domingo, a successful rival of Ed's friend and favorite tenor
> > Tucker. In this circumstance, one can wonder whether personal, cultural,
> > or religious bias may be playing a role in the harsh assessments.
> > Samurai
> > --------------------------------
> > "personal, cultural or religious bias"...this is unintentionally funny
> > samurai. "personal" yes. all opinions are "personal. "cultural" huh? and
> > lastly you are implying of course that ed prefers tucker and merrill
> > over milnes and domingo because they are jewish, right?
>
> > btw, even i know domingo and tucker were hardly "rivals" since their
> > careers barely overlapped.
>
> > ed has praised to the sky, amongst others, gigli, boniselli, and corelli
> > and carreras when they were at their peak. maybe they were all closet
> > jews?
>
> > frank
Hi REG,
If anyone wrote a book entitled 'Why I am a fascist', even you,
Richard Garmise, attorney, might actually cease to deny his political
leanings. Do you think your pontificating might alter the fact that
he wrote such a book? You are a lawyer, I am sure even you would have
little trouble prosecuting the fact that he had far right political
leanings, after all you would probably make strange bedfellows, so to
speak. <smirk>
Next you will be telling this news group that Lauri-Volpi was a
bleeding heart liberal and had absolutely no fascist leanings
whatsoever... <smirk>
Even though Legge was half Jewish, according to you... and you
alone... he is an antisemite. Like a lot of your comments, they are
so very easy for you to write, and yet in the real world so very
difficult to prove. I am sure you did not learn this approach at law
school..
Best regards
John
Over to you Richard Garmise... attorney....
Steve Silverman
that was stellar about Milnes: vibrant tone, tremendous control over across
a wide dynamic range, equally commanding in melting mezza-voce and thrilling
forte high notes, and a rhythmic precision and thrust that is extremely
exciting. Oh, and not a hint of dodgy passaggio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdgrvpgioyY
Steve Silverman
F R
delighted to find out that he (Bonisolli) was Jewish! Best,
Ken
right ken. i meant bergonzi (nee' bergman?)
frank
tapef...@webtv.net
>ed has praised to the sky, amongst others, gigli, boniselli, and
corelli and carreras when >they were at their peak. maybe they were all
>closet jews?
Perhaps not of the closet -or stage-Jew persuasion, but Carreras was a
two-time Jew in the recording studios: 'Samson" and "Eleazar', in
complete sets of Saint-Saens' and Halevy's respective works.
Enjoyable performances of each, IMO, - if not these roles' ideal
interpretor.
LT
tapef...@webtv.net
>>ed has praised to the sky, amongst others, gigli, boniselli, and
corelli and carreras when >>they were at their peak. maybe they were all
>>closet jews?
>I don't think Ed has praised Bonisolli to the skies. But I'd be
delighted to find out that he
>(Bonisolli) was Jewish! Best,
>Ken
Not sure about FB (nee Bonisollovitz?), But Corelli was an honorary
Jew of sorts; great enthusiast of Carnegie Deli's corned beef, pastrami,
and other such NY-Hebraic dietary staples; - hopefully having quaffed
down enough of the customary tea and lemon with each of these repasts,
to stave off the equally-customary heartburn.
ljo
> To all, there was a thread about most overrated singers that garnered
> a lot of posts. So I decided to write about my most overrated singer,
> That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. I gave reasons, and I will
> stick by my opinion. You are welcome to your opinion, and I am welcome
> to mine.
>
> ljo is simply a troublemaker, as he has proved often during the past
> two relatively peaceful weeks. So say want you want, little jimmy,
> this will be my one and only follow up.
>
> Ed>
The troublemaker is the one who started a new thread and called the man a
fraud. Dismissing the life's work of a man with a few reckless phrases in a
public forum is vicious. You have been stomping Milnes in this forum since
1999 or earlier. And for at least that long you have been making money on
his pilfered recordings. And I bet you have never sent him a 'thank you'
note. High dudgeon doesn't really work for you, Ed. You have no class. No
class at all.
Ken Meltzer
Well, he does brag about his son, the dentist! (;-)
Best,
Ken
F R
think he's a rich man because of it, i think he has a right to criticize
anyone he wants. should he restrict comment to only those singers he
likes?
i think he's being more honest by mentioning those he doesn't, whether
he sells their recordings or not.
i've cited a parallel example before.... but briefly, i am/was a rare
coin dealer. i don't like the "peace" dollars, minted from 1921-1935. if
a customer wants to buy some and doesn't ask my opinion, i am happy to
comply with his wishes. if he DOES ask my advice, i'd try and steer him
toward the "morgan" silver dollar and give him MY opinion as to why.
i would assume if one of ed's customers wanted a domingo version of a
particular opera, ed would accept it without comment, but if said
customer ASKED ed which tenor, in his OPINION, is best in a particular
role, perhaps ed would say tucker, bergonzi or corelli, rather than
domingo.
where's the hypocrisy?
frank
REG
experience, and it gets covered up by issues of whether or not someone has a
right to express an opinion because of what they do without having what they
do attacked.
That's true liberalism, Frank.
"F R" <espo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14067-47...@storefull-3311.bay.webtv.net...
Ken Meltzer
> There is none. There's simply an intolerance of opinions and jealousy of
> experience, and it gets covered up by issues of whether or not someone has a
> right to express an opinion because of what they do without having what they
> do attacked.
I've said this before, and I truly believe it:
This place would be a lot better if people would confine themselves to
arguing the issues, rather than resorting to personal attacks in order
to try to win a debate.
I'm willing to believe that Ed criticizes Milnes because he doesn't
like the man's singing. But I'm also willing to believe that people
can strongly disagree with his opinion about Milnes, without being
jealous of who Ed is, or what he does.
Best,
Ken
Richard Loeb
news:339ec72e-a0a7-4592...@l32g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Yes what ever happened to the proof that Legge was an anti-semite???? Now
that I remember I woud love to hear the tenor version of The Trumpet Shall
Sound. Richard
ljo
Hello Frank.
Your analogy is inapt unless you stole the coins and then publically whined
about their makers' faulty craftsmanship. Whether Ed got rich from selling
the loot is irrelevant. I see it as a case of a thief berating his victims
for not producing a better product. Whether he has the right to do that is
not the issue as far as I am concerned.
ljo
edo...@gmail.com
I can't imagine he was Jewish, Ken. Too much of a ham!! And not on
toast!!
Best,
Ed
Richard Loeb
And Tucker wasn't????????? Richard
Ken Meltzer
I'll give him honorary Mishpuchah status, Ed.
Best,
Ken
F R
Your analogy is inapt unless you stole the coins and then publically
whined about their makers' faulty craftsmanship. Whether Ed got rich
from selling the loot is irrelevant. I see it as a case of a thief
berating his victims for not producing a better product. Whether he has
the right to do that is not the issue as far as I am concerned.
ljo
i have no problem with you or anyone else disliking what ed does for a
living, ljo. that is fair.
the point i am trying to make (obviously unsuccessfully to you and
probably some others) is that as an opera fan for over 50 years ed is
entitled to his opinions of singers, be they positive or negative.
his post about milnes are his personal beliefs and he did cite
specificity (whether one agrees with his assessment or not), and i take
it at face value. surely he has no ulterior motives. to me, it has
nothing to do with what he does for a living.
frank
ljo
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47692b2c$0$1345$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> There is none. There's simply an intolerance of opinions and jealousy of
> experience, and it gets covered up by issues of whether or not someone has
> a right to express an opinion because of what they do without having what
> they do attacked.
>
> That's true liberalism, Frank.
>
When a poster has a nine-year record (at least) of frequently hauling a
major artist over the coals, and reaches a crescendo by calling him a fraud,
it is fair to wonder what is behind such rabid behavior. Nobody, as far as I
have noticed, has questioned his "right" to express an opinion. Calling a
man a fraud is beyond opinion. And it is exacerbated when that "fraud" is
also his victim. So he is certainly not immune from having his 'occupation'
and the ethic that drives it questioned, particularly inasmuch as he reminds
us of it with his every post.
ljo
Hello Frank.
It's not Ed's rights that interest me. It's his ethics.
ljo
LT
> On Dec 19, 9:31 am, "REG" <Richer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There is none. There's simply an intolerance of opinions and jealousy of
> > experience, and it gets covered up by issues of whether or not someone has a
> > right to express an opinion because of what they do without having what they
> > do attacked.
>
> I've said this before, and I truly believe it:
> This place would be a lot better if people would confine themselves to
> arguing the issues, rather than resorting to personal attacks in order
> to try to win a debate.
"A lot better"?
I'd say it would be infinitely better.
'Winning debates', and at any cost, isn't exactly everyone's idea of
what this forum and similar ones are about.
Now, just what that happens to be -is yet ANOTHER debate, and so it
goes;
IMO discussing the singers and their countless differences as well as
the similarities is what's enriching and enjoyable. The other
'approach' some feel compelled to foist on anyone anytime is both
futile and pointless; unless the 'point' is nothing but nonstop ad
hominem bickering first, foremost, and only.
> I'm willing to believe that Ed criticizes Milnes because he doesn't
> like the man's singing. But I'm also willing to believe that people
> can strongly disagree with his opinion about Milnes, without being
> jealous of who Ed is, or what he does.
For example, I, who don't generally find MacNeil's performances from
'60 on, however much many here say he's the greatest in various Verdi
dramatic baritone repertory, *do* enjoy Milnes' performances (even
into his latter 'wobbly' phase) and recordings,
and consider him the nearest baritone to Warren in both style and
tone; 'HOW' is that possible? For the simple and incontrovertible
reason that no matter what the arguments are on any 'side', nor how
strongly they are pushed, we all hear differently. And that's how it
will always be; unless , of course, anyone has some proof to the
contrary?
> Best,
> Ken
donpaolo
I am proud to relate that some of my best friends are cr-r-r-a-a-a-ck he...,
unh er, cr-r-a-a-ck pots; I have always loved Cr-r-r-a-a-aacker Jacks,
cr-r-r-a-aacker bon bons, cheese & cr-r-r-a-a-a-ckers & cr-r-r-a-a-cked
wheat bread. Further, my fav film of all time is "Kr-r-r-a-a-atoa, East of
Java".
Harrrrumph
DonPaolo
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47688654$0$7147$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> This must mean you're prejudiced.
>
>
> "donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:kMidnZDDPpO8lfXa...@rcn.net...
>> My exposure to Milnes in the theater was largely limited to his early
>> work, which I rather liked. I, too, believed that he would be the heir
>> apparent to the magnificent Leonard Warren, but this was never to be.
>>
>> The roles requiring in-depth characterization, such as Rigoletto & Iago,
>> were far beyond his abilities. In fact, he appeared rather silly in
>> these attempts - his acting approach in skipping around the stage, waving
>> the jester's wand like a toy sword, in Act 3, was exactly like a silly,
>> spoiled kid, imitating Warren, who used the wand as a would-be weapon.
>> Milnes as Iago acted like Bela Lugosi, sneaking behind Otello & making
>> faces & dumb, childish gestures behind teacher's back.
>>
>> Yet, all that said, I thought his Boccanegra well-sung & well-played - go
>> figga that.
>>
>> For me, my numero uno "most overrated" will always be Domingo. From the
>> very first series of Don Joses that I witnessed at NYCO, I thought him
>> nothing more than a journeyman, run-of-the-mill, very ordinary,
>> second-grade, pushed-up zarzuela baritone. There was nothing special
>> about his voice itself, which I find unpleasant, with a kind of whiney
>> twang, along with his tendency to consistently sing hoarse & even worse,
>> cr-r-r-a-a-a-ck on high notes. His stock interpretations were relatively
>> the same in whatever role he was undertaking. I have given him every
>> opportunity to "show me" something "special" & I have been disappointed
>> virtually every time.
>>
>> Of all the scores of performances I have heard & seen with Domingo, I can
>> recall only 2 in which I was impressed - the televised Luisa Miller was
>> one. I thought that either he has finally "come around", or that perhaps
>> I was wrong about him. The very next radio broadcast of L. Miller,
>> however, reinforced my negative feelings about him, because he returned
>> to mediocrity. I recall the filmed Tales of Hoffman (the one w/Geraint
>> Evans), in which I thought PD was pretty fine.
>>
>> Well, someone posed the question....
>>
>> DonPaolo
>> "premie...@aol.com" <edo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:f826102d-738f-4000...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>> Of all the big "stars" I have seen in opera in 50 years, the one who
>>> puzzles me the most is without doubt Sherrill Milnes.
>>>
>>> How could this man have such a major career? He never, ever knew how
>>> to sing any of his passaggio notes- Eb, E natural, F, and even F#. His
>>> G's, Ab's, and even higher are fine, but most of a baritones singing
>>> lies lower.
>>>
>>> He would make such incredibly ugly sounds around those passaggio
>>> notes, that I couldn't believe it. The lower third of his voice was
>>> very weak, and the middle, for me, barely adequate. There isn't a
>>> baritone I have heard in major roles who I wouldn't take over Milnes.
>>> And I don't just mean Merrill, MacNeil, Cappuccilli (who hated the way
>>> Milnes sang, btw- he told me) but I mean even baritones with much less
>>> of a career. Elvira, Manuguerra, Guarrera, Sereni, Colzani, Ellis,
>>> Sardinero, and others. All of these were contemporaries of Milnes, and
>>> all could sing him under the table, IMO.
>>>
>>> But he was tall, etc., and got the recording contracts,and the
>>> publicity that comes attached with this.
>>>
>>> I think Milnes was a fraud of a career.
>>>
>>> Now, tell me the truth. How many of you thought I was going to name
>>> someone else after reading the header???? Even I thought I was going
>>> to name someone else, but I can't. There is no "great" singer less
>>> deserving of the term than Sherrill Milnes.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>
>>
>
>
donpaolo
DonP.
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3782481d-9796-4777...@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
donpaolo
Italian than the Italians", or something like that? Even my father, who was
extremely fussy about Italian pronunciation (disliked JB because of his many
flubs), swore up & down that RT had Italian ancestry because of his suberb
language skills, as well as his passionate intensity.
DonPaolo
"premie...@aol.com" <edo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7dff15da-9536-477a...@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
F R
i can separate the two ljo, you choose not to.
yet, i think from reading your political leanings you most likely voted
for bill clinton, certainly no poster boy for "ethics".
frank
ljo
I voted for Pogo. He beat Harold Stassen out by a bristle.
ljo
"LT" <Leonar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b62223f-43b4-46ff...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 19, 9:40 am, Ken Meltzer <commsp...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 19, 9:31 am, "REG" <Richer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > There is none. There's simply an intolerance of opinions and jealousy
>> > of
>> > experience, and it gets covered up by issues of whether or not someone
>> > has a
>> > right to express an opinion because of what they do without having what
>> > they
>> > do attacked.
>>
>> I've said this before, and I truly believe it:
>> This place would be a lot better if people would confine themselves to
>> arguing the issues, rather than resorting to personal attacks in order
>> to try to win a debate.
>
> "A lot better"?
>
> I'd say it would be infinitely better.
> 'Winning debates', and at any cost, isn't exactly everyone's idea of
> what this forum and similar ones are about.
>
> Now, just what that happens to be -is yet ANOTHER debate, and so it
> goes;
> IMO discussing the singers and their countless differences as well as
> the similarities is what's enriching and enjoyable. The other
> 'approach' some feel compelled to foist on anyone anytime is both
> futile and pointless; unless the 'point' is nothing but nonstop ad
> hominem bickering first, foremost, and only.
>
If you're opposed to the concept of winning debates, why are you debating
whether it would be a "lot better" or "infinitely better"? Do you know how
silly that is? And by the way, it isn't possible for something to be
"infinitely better". And don't even think about debating that with me.
jszos...@comcast.net
> How can you even joke about such a thing???
>
> I am proud to relate that some of my best friends are cr-r-r-a-a-a-ck he...,
> unh er, cr-r-a-a-ck pots; I have always loved Cr-r-r-a-a-aacker Jacks,
> cr-r-r-a-aacker bon bons, cheese & cr-r-r-a-a-a-ckers & cr-r-r-a-a-cked
> wheat bread. Further, my fav film of all time is "Kr-r-r-a-a-atoa, East of
> Java".
>
> Harrrrumph
>
>
> news:47688654$0$7147$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> - Show quoted text -
Will you please stop with the cracker jokes! You're getting on my
nerves! This post if more about baritone than the tenor...who was an
afterthought which you are beating to death. Stop it already!!!!
It's NOT FUNNY! And do please belive me...I in dead earnst when I say
that.
Try to keep this a civil discussion...not some kid's game...nyah, nyah
nah nyah nayh! Pathetic.
I love you amico mio...but you really to way too far. In all the
years I sang with the man and listened to him I never once heard him
crack during a live performance...that's not to say they never
did...but I never heard it. I've known him and have been listening to
him for over four decades. The way you put it...that's all he did was
cracks. Maybe your ears are a bit cracked...have you thought of that?
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Steve Silverman
<jszos...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:0f59ccd4-7c9d-48ba...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> I've known him and have been listening to
> him for over four decades. The way you put it...that's all he did was
> cracks.
Relax, Jon. Virtually nobody gives that nonsense any credence.
Steve Silverman
LT
>what ever happened to the proof that Legge >was an anti-semite????
Well, just because he wed a Nazi chick, that wouldn't be total proof,
one could argue; OTOH, did her marrying him make her a.... Legge-
Woman? As a Leg Man, I need to know.... as soon as possibile.