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Best Liebestod

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Shahrdad

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Aug 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/22/98
to
I had recently bought a 2 CD set of Birgit Nilsson singing Wagner arias.
The whole album is wonderful, but when I got to the Liebestod from Tristan
and Isolde, I was absolutely boweled over. It is recorded live with Bohm,
and the sound is absolutely wonderful. It is by far the most ecstatic final
scene I have ever heard, and it has an almost visual quality about it.
Nilsson and Bohm start very softly, and gradually swell the music to an
amazing degree. The orchestral sound envelops and submerges Nilsson like a
giant wave, and then she suddenly cuts through this giant wave like a
shining beacon of light and floats above the ocean of sound. And I have
never heard anybody sing that last soft note the way Nilsson does. It is an
amazing piece of singing and conducting, and it almost makes you believe
that Isolde could die simply for the ecstatic joy of reuniting with her
Tristan.

I have also always loved Callas' 1949 recording which is in such start
contrast to the one above. She weeps, she pleads, she mourns, and finally
dies in a bittersweet sigh.

PANPERSON

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Aug 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/23/98
to
To describe Nilsson as being able to "cut through" the orchestra is to describe
her to perfection. The classic example is when she sang Turandot. She
was able to pop out those two high Cs through the chorus and the orchestra and
that was all that you heard. It was amazing! I can't think of anyone else
who could direct the voice quite like that. Perhaps Corelli could have done
it but I don't know of a role where he was required to sing through all of
that.
DAVID MY COFFEE MUG SAYS: HOLD ME, I AM A FERMATA IT MAKES MY DAY

dtritter

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Aug 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/23/98
to Matthew B. Tepper
From the dim distance of a 1911 recording, the Liebestod of Olive
Fremstad still stands in the front rank of any ever committed to disc.
The sound is gleaming, the feeling authentic. This was a monumental
artist in any era.


dft

Shahrdad

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Aug 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/23/98
to

Matthew B. Tepper wrote in message <6rnpau$e7h$9...@news01.deltanet.com>...
>Don't forget Frida Leider!

OOOHHHH, I Love Frida Leider! What a voice! What perfect trills (as
Sieglinde or Brunnhilde in the battle cry)! I think it was perhaps a much
more beautiful voice than Birgit's, with a more Italianate sound, and much
better agility. The Liebestod, however, wasn't that great a recording I
thought. I think it was recorded at a much faster pace than she sang in the
theater, just to make it fit on a 78 rpm record. Also, with the primitive
recording technique, I think Leider had to hold back on the high notes, tone
them down, and cut them off earlier than she would have in the theater.
Otherwise, she would have overwhelmed the recording equipment. But she has
always been one of my favorite singers, and I know her Isolde is supposed to
be one of the greatest impersonations in operatic history.

There are so many wonderful and valid readings of Isolde's death, but I
still have not heard anyone equal Nilsson's absolute ecstasy. The way she
and Bohm make the voice and the orchestra make love never ceases to amaze
me. It really makes you want to die with her.

As far as Olive Fremstad, unfortunately I have never heard her recording. I
have read quite a bit about her amazing artistry and the sheer size and
power and gleam of her voice. Where can one find a recording of her?

Another favorite of mine is Eileen Farrell. I have a recording of her
Liebestod, and I thought it was so-so. Her Immolation Scene with Bernstein,
however, is excellent. By all accounts I've heard, her's was a voice at
least as big, and probably bigger than Nilsson's, with a much more plush
tone and warmer color. I think it was more in line with Flagstad's sound.
I read an account of the first time she sang with Corelli in Forza.
Apparently, though he had been swapping high C's with Nilsson for several
years, he was aghast at the size of the voice, and he exclaimed, "But who is
that woman? She has driven me DEAF!" But I've also heard that she really
hated Wagner, and she tried to sing as little of his music as possible!

S.

Matthew B. Tepper

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Aug 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/23/98
to
In article <MpVD1.17$iw1.1...@typhoon.stlnet.com>, Shah...@msn.com
pondered what I'm pondering as follows:

>
>Matthew B. Tepper wrote in message
<6rnpau$e7h$9...@news01.deltanet.com>...
>>Don't forget Frida Leider!
>
>OOOHHHH, I Love Frida Leider! What a voice! What perfect trills (as
>Sieglinde or Brunnhilde in the battle cry)! I think it was perhaps a
>much more beautiful voice than Birgit's, with a more Italianate sound,
>and much better agility. The Liebestod, however, wasn't that great a
>recording I thought. I think it was recorded at a much faster pace
>than she sang in the theater, just to make it fit on a 78 rpm record.
>Also, with the primitive recording technique, I think Leider had to
>hold back on the high notes, tone them down, and cut them off earlier
>than she would have in the theater. Otherwise, she would have
>overwhelmed the recording equipment. But she has always been one of
>my favorite singers, and I know her Isolde is supposed to be one of
>the greatest impersonations in operatic history.

She is indeed overwhelming in an early Met aircheck, although you kind
of have to take some of it on faith due to the awful sound, and the
terrible surfaces on a typical Eddie Smith "Scratchofunken" pressing.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
And my science fiction club's home page --- http://www.lasfs.org/
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion


The Grand Inquisitor

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Aug 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/23/98
to
Fladstad.
"I'll ask the questions here, Ma'am."_Sgt. Joe Friday

Shahrdad wrote in message ..

Grant Menzies

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Aug 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/23/98
to
"The Grand Inquisitor" <pati...@teleport.com> wrote:

>Fladstad.
>"I'll ask the questions here, Ma'am."_Sgt. Joe Friday

#1. a recording Christa Ludwig made in London in 1962;

#2. Linda Esther Gray, in the gorgeous but for many people elusive
1981 or 82 Decca recording of T&I, Reginald Goodall conducting.

(This Goodall recording is, by the way, the one by which I have a
tendency to compare all others--but when you've seen/heard or own
recordings of well over a dozen of the most famous Isoldes who ever
lived, you can say that ;-)

Grant

Grant Menzies

*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Il faut choisir
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*


Shahrdad

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Aug 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/23/98
to

Grant Menzies wrote in message <6rpkqn$bmr$1...@news2.ispnews.com>...

>#1. a recording Christa Ludwig made in London in 1962;
>
>#2. Linda Esther Gray, in the gorgeous but for many people elusive
>1981 or 82 Decca recording of T&I, Reginald Goodall conducting.


Where can you get the Ludwig recording? I've never heard Gray. What is her
voice and singing like?

Elizabeth & Keith Falkner

unread,
Aug 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/24/98
to
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> Don't forget Frida Leider!


I knew a speech therapist who had her patients practice with the phrase,
"Frida Leider, the Lieder Lady".

Elizabeth

Elizabeth & Keith Falkner

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Aug 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/24/98
to
PANPERSON wrote:
>
> To describe Nilsson as being able to "cut through" the orchestra is to describe
> her to perfection. The classic example is when she sang Turandot. She
> was able to pop out those two high Cs through the chorus and the orchestra and
> that was all that you heard. It was amazing! I can't think of anyone else
> who could direct the voice quite like that. Perhaps Corelli could have done
> it but I don't know of a role where he was required to sing through all of
> that.
> DAVID


I heard her Turandot at the Met and was literally pushed back into my
seat by some of her high notes! I can only think of a few others who
were able to do that for me--Eileen Farrell was another.

Elizabeth

Grant Menzies

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Aug 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/24/98
to
"Shahrdad" <Shah...@msn.com> wrote:


>Grant Menzies wrote in message <6rpkqn$bmr$1...@news2.ispnews.com>...
>>#1. a recording Christa Ludwig made in London in 1962;
>>
>>#2. Linda Esther Gray, in the gorgeous but for many people elusive
>>1981 or 82 Decca recording of T&I, Reginald Goodall conducting.


>Where can you get the Ludwig recording?

Mine is on a CD set called Les Introvables de Christa Ludwig, EMI
Classics. If only she could have sung the entire role! What
intelligent singing.

> I've never heard Gray. What is her
>voice and singing like?

Suffice it to say: she makes Isolde seem very vulnerable and young,
and yet with this erotic glow coming through, this bel canto attention
to line and arch, of really understanding the words she's singing and
their dramatic force. She also declaims at certain moments of
crisis--as in the Act I "Verruchter!"--which Wagner countenanced long
ago as long as such declamations made sense (and which he in turn
appreciated when he heard his idol Schröder-Devrient do them). People
who saw Gray tell me she was not all that impressive on stage, but
with a voice and a dramatic talent like that, she had Jane Eaglen beat
to smithereens.

PANPERSON

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Aug 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/24/98
to
Eileen Farrell - A truly underated singer.

Elizabeth & Keith Falkner

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Aug 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/24/98
to
PANPERSON wrote:
>
> Eileen Farrell - A truly underated singer.
> DAVID MY COFFEE MUG SAYS: HOLD ME, I AM A FERMATA IT MAKES MY DAY


Much underated. I had heard that she had difficulty learning the
operas, which was why she almost always either sang them with the scores
propped in front of her or not at all.

I heard her sing, "To This We've Come" from Menotti's "The Consul" in a
concert in New York in the '60s, and the audience went HAYWIRE! She was
a better actress than people thought, too.

I have NOT heard her recent album...maybe I should.

Elizabeth

Jacob

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Aug 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/24/98
to
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> Don't forget Frida Leider!


Jacob wrote (yes, I'm back):

If we have the wish to forget Frida Leider, than we simply forget Frida
Leider! So simple it is.

Jacob

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Aug 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/24/98
to
Who the hell is Fladstad??

Scott Tisdel

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Aug 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/26/98
to
>Shahrdad <Shah...@msn.com>


I wouldn't necessarily say it is the best ever, but has any one heard
Renata Tebaldi's version (in Italian!)?? It's gorgeous!! She has a
completely different way with the piece than anyone I've heard-- She
really makes it her own.

By the way, I concur that Nilsson has the most incredible version, and the
most astonishing voice (though I have heard only her complete opera
version with Solti, not the Bohm collaboration). You could pretty much
say the same thing about any of her "signature" roles (ie. Elektra,
Turandot, Brünhilde, even Salome).

Scott Tisdel

PANPERSON

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Aug 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/26/98
to
If you like Tebaldi's than I would suggest that you also listen to Leontyne
Price. While neither is very Wagnerish they are both well done.

PART...@mip.paed.uni-muenchen.de

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Aug 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/26/98
to
Shahrdad wrote:
>
> Grant Menzies wrote in message <6rpkqn$bmr$1...@news2.ispnews.com>...
> >#1. a recording Christa Ludwig made in London in 1962;
> >
> >#2. Linda Esther Gray, in the gorgeous but for many people elusive
> >1981 or 82 Decca recording of T&I, Reginald Goodall conducting.
>
> Where can you get the Ludwig recording? I've never heard Gray. What is her
> voice and singing like?

Gray sounds a bit like Tatiana Troyanos. Her Isolde is very feminine and
somehow vulnerable, like M. Price but with the voice really needed.
Unfortunately, her German vowels can sound very funny.

robert seigler

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Aug 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/26/98
to
dtritter:

fremstad's recording also stays in my mind as the most moving version of
the liebestod. i had it long ago on an LP. is it currently available?

bob seigler

..give me the ocular proof; / Or, by the worth of man's eternal soul, /
Thou hadst been better have been born a dog / Than answer my waked
wrath! - OTHELLO


patience

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Aug 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/27/98
to
OOps! Sorry. I meant, of course, 'Pfladstag'.

--


"I'll ask the questions here, Ma'am."_Sgt. Joe Friday

Jacob wrote in message <35E1D5...@wxs.nl>...
>Who the hell is Fladstad??

Shahrdad

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Aug 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/27/98
to

Scott Tisdel wrote in message <6s02eb$k...@newsops.execpc.com>...

>
>I wouldn't necessarily say it is the best ever, but has any one heard
>Renata Tebaldi's version (in Italian!)?? It's gorgeous!! She has a
>completely different way with the piece than anyone I've heard-- She
>really makes it her own.
>
>By the way, I concur that Nilsson has the most incredible version, and the
>most astonishing voice (though I have heard only her complete opera
>version with Solti, not the Bohm collaboration). You could pretty much
>say the same thing about any of her "signature" roles (ie. Elektra,
>Turandot, Brünhilde, even Salome).
>
>Scott Tisdel

Well, I shouldn't have said the "best," but the most ecstatic. I think the
Nilsson/Bohm rendition would certainly qualify as that!

S.

The Grand Inquisitor

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Aug 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/27/98
to
Who is Frida Leider? I've forgotten.

-
"I'll ask the questions here, Ma'am."_Sgt. Joe Friday

Jacob wrote in message <35E1D4...@wxs.nl>...

Matthew B. Tepper

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Aug 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/27/98
to
Hochdramatische sopran, chiefly Berlin-based but also active at Wiener
Staatsoper, Royal Opera Covent Garden, Metropolitan. Listen to her in a
good 35-minute chunk (from the Vassals' entrance through to the end of
the act) from _Götterdämmerung_ at Covent Garden, May 1938, conducted
Furtwängler, with Melchior as Siegfried -- absolutely the greatest chunk
of live Wagner I've ever heard!

--

Shahrdad

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Aug 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/27/98
to

Matthew B. Tepper wrote in message <35E5F5...@deltanet.com>...

>Hochdramatische sopran, chiefly Berlin-based but also active at Wiener
>Staatsoper, Royal Opera Covent Garden, Metropolitan. Listen to her in a
>good 35-minute chunk (from the Vassals' entrance through to the end of
>the act) from _Götterdämmerung_ at Covent Garden, May 1938, conducted
>Furtwängler, with Melchior as Siegfried -- absolutely the greatest chunk
>of live Wagner I've ever heard!


Unlike many Wagnerian's, Leider was Italian trained, and thus, her singing
had a wonderful elasticity and bel canto quality which Germanic trained
sopranos rarely achieve. It was a luscious and luminous sound of ample
size, easy top, and incredible trills. Until I had heard her, I didn't
think Wagner could ever sound so beautiful.

S.

Matthew B. Tepper

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Aug 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/28/98
to
In article <JcpF1.49$%33.10...@typhoon.stlnet.com>, Shah...@msn.com
pondered what I'm pondering as follows:
>
>

We are in complete agreement. No "Bayreuth Bark" from this splendid
singer!

Jocke Zetterberg

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Aug 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/28/98
to

Regarding Liebestods in general I can only state one thing. I have never
heard the full opera but only the Liebestod, and on my "Best of Wagner" cd
Birgit Nilsson makes a remarkable performance which makes me shed a tear
or two just because of the powerful music and the moving theme of
love-dying (no matter how silly it _really_ sounds to die of love).

/ Jocke - the penultimate Swede


Speedbyrd :>

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Aug 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/29/98
to

Though not at the pinnacle of opera singer rates, Helga Dernesch
turns in a fine performance of the Liebestod on the '72 HvK
'Tristan'. I don't think she ever equalled this performance in
any of her other works.

The Speedbyrd(tm) :>
... the usual suspect

ICQ# 17433172

Cfehlandt

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Aug 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/29/98
to
Jocke--

If you're the "penultimate" Swede, who's the last one?
CF

Klyphil

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Aug 31, 1998, 3:00:00 AM8/31/98
to
Undoubtedly Deanna Durbin, available of the sound track recording of "The
Little Broadcast of 1942"


Buoso Donati, Jr.

Susnsevier

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Sep 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/11/98
to
You have all forgotten, as the Germans would say " die unvergessene" Astrid
Varnay! Her performance can be heard on the Deutsche Gramaphone re-release
"Astrid Varnay-Wagner: Tristan und Isolde Szenen" 43955-2. The depth of sound,
and the therefore the depth of emotion, is more than I ever thought possible,
and I had already heard Nilsson and Flagstad and Norman.

Eine amerikanische Mezzo in Muenchen

Grant Menzies

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Sep 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/11/98
to
susns...@aol.com (Susnsevier) wrote:

Never fear, this Amerikaner hasn't forgotten her. I have her paired
with Ramon Vinay in a 1953 Bayreuth Broadcast of T&I, cond. by Jochum.
Talk about fire and brimstone!

dtritter

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Sep 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/11/98
to
Susnsevier wrote:
>
> You have all forgotten, as the Germans would say " die unvergessene" Astrid> Varnay! Her performance can be heard on the Deutsche Gramaphone re-release> "Astrid Varnay-Wagner: Tristan und Isolde Szenen" 43955-2. The depth of sound,> and the therefore the depth of emotion, is more than I ever thought possible,> and I had already heard Nilsson and Flagstad and Norman.
>
> Eine amerikanische Mezzo in Muenchen

I for one will never forget my friend Astrid Varnay. And there's a whole
lot more to idolize in her incomparable 55 year career.


dft

Gaelin

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Sep 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/11/98
to Grant Menzies
I have NOT forgotten her. I adore her, though I have a bit of trouble with Vinay in
the Jochum '53 broadcast. Some of his phrasing seems very unmusical in the love
duet, but that's another thread. As much as i adore Varnay's Isolde(along with
everything else) I find Lubin's Liebestod to be the most magical experience of them
all. And while we're talking of the wondrous past, does anyone know if Hildegard
Ranczak ever sang the role? She's another singer who has faded into the past and
who deserves better than that.

Grant Menzies wrote:

> susns...@aol.com (Susnsevier) wrote:
>
> >You have all forgotten, as the Germans would say " die unvergessene" Astrid
> >Varnay! Her performance can be heard on the Deutsche Gramaphone re-release
> >"Astrid Varnay-Wagner: Tristan und Isolde Szenen" 43955-2. The depth of sound,
> >and the therefore the depth of emotion, is more than I ever thought possible,
> >and I had already heard Nilsson and Flagstad and Norman.
>

Thor Even Brenden

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Sep 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/11/98
to
I haven`t read the earlier messages in this discussion so what I am about
to write may have been written allready. I have just bought the 1940 live
Metropolitan Tristan with Flagstad and Melchior and Leinsdorf conducting. A
memorable performance. Can this Lebestod match the others?

--
thor...@ol.telia.no

Gaelin <Gae...@NYCnet.com> skrev i artikkelen
<35F97C1B...@NYCnet.com>...

James Jorden

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Sep 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/11/98
to
Gaelin wrote:
> And while we're talking of the wondrous past, does anyone know if Hildegard
> Ranczak ever sang the role? She's another singer who has faded into the
> past and who deserves better than that.

It seems to me that in THE LAST PRIMA DONNAS Ranczak noted that her
voice was never expansive enough for Wagner, but I may have her confused
with another of the divas: they do all rather tend to sound alike in
Rasponi's translation. At any rate, I am pretty sure that Ranczak
stayed in the Jugendlich fach and never sang the full dramatic parts:
her core repertoire was Strauss and the big Puccini roles.

Now, she may very well have sung the Liebestod as a concert piece at one
point or another. But I don't remember anything like that ever turning
up on CD.

The person to ask about this would be Albert Innaurato, who is a real
authority on Ranczak as a recording artist. Aas some of you may know, he
and I are not on speaking terms, but you may find him on Opera Oasis
(AOL) where he goes by such names as "Emma Albani" and "Elizabeth Ann
Walker."

--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
latest opera gossip from parterre box:
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre/lacieca.htm

Ed Rosen

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Sep 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/12/98
to

Lily Pons

PANPERSON

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Sep 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/12/98
to
I have this tape that I haven't listened to in years. One side is Eileen
Farrell and Jess Thomas with Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic
from February 26, 1969. The other side is Birgit Nilsson and Grace Hoffman
with Hans Knappertsbusch(sp?) and the Vienna Philharmonic on London #5537.
It contains the prelud, the Liebestod and Isolde's narrative and curse.
I have no idea what either of these sound like but I will listen to them again.
But I am no judge of Wagner so I can only give you an estimate of what I
think. If they were singing Puccini or Verdi I could certainly give you a
better analysis. To each his/her own. I like the Winterstorm aria -
which is about as romantic as you can get - and a few other things about Wagner
but I find him to be endless. I do find the Liebestod to be one of the
exceptions to the pieces of his that I like.

Jerel Zoltick

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Sep 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/12/98
to
The 1966 Bohm Tristan has many positives (few negatives)...But the Liebestod
with Nilsson makes all others less inspiring. The operatic performance is
the most overt sexual one ever recorded...and the liebestod makes others
pale in my experience....

jerel

Grant Menzies

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Sep 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/12/98
to
All I can say is what I've been saying for a long time now: if you can
lay hands on a copy of the 1981 Goodall TRISTAN, with Linda Esther
Gray, you will hear not just a truly great Liebestod but a revelatory
interpretation of the role of Isolde. I haven't got over this
recording since first hearing it almost 20 years ago, and just can't
*fathom* why Decca doesn't release it on CD. (I would also like to
have a back up copy in case my albums start showing any more wear and
tear!)

Matthew B. Tepper

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Sep 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/12/98
to
In article <6te519$8su$1...@winter.news.erols.com>, je...@ln.nimh.nih.gov
pondered what I'm pondering as follows:
>

Once, while I was shopping at a Tower Records, a young beautiful
Frenchwoman (or at least she had what seemed to me such an accent)
asked me for recommendations from among the _Tristan_ recordings there
arrayed. I pointed out which ones to avoid (Solti, Bernstein), and
which were top-of-the-line (Böhm, Fürtwangler), but singled out the
Beecham/Covent Garden on Melodram as having the best singing (Melchior
and Flagstad!), as well as being the most erotic, and I stressed that
last point. (Yes, I did warn her about the cuts and the sound.)

Guess which one she bought?

Speedbyrd :>

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Sep 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/12/98
to
On 12 Sep 1998 22:19:07 GMT, duckyþ@deltanet.com (Matthew B.
Tepper) wrote:

>In article <6te519$8su$1...@winter.news.erols.com>, je...@ln.nimh.nih.gov
>pondered what I'm pondering as follows:
>>
>>The 1966 Bohm Tristan has many positives (few negatives)...But the
>>Liebestod with Nilsson makes all others less inspiring. The operatic
>>performance is the most overt sexual one ever recorded...and the
>>liebestod makes others pale in my experience....
>>
>>jerel
>
>Once, while I was shopping at a Tower Records, a young beautiful
>Frenchwoman (or at least she had what seemed to me such an accent)
>asked me for recommendations from among the _Tristan_ recordings there
>arrayed. I pointed out which ones to avoid (Solti, Bernstein), and
>which were top-of-the-line (Böhm, Fürtwangler), but singled out the
>Beecham/Covent Garden on Melodram as having the best singing (Melchior
>and Flagstad!), as well as being the most erotic, and I stressed that
>last point. (Yes, I did warn her about the cuts and the sound.)
>
>Guess which one she bought?


I would hope that she would have bought the Bernstein version or
HvKarajan 1972, since they are the best around.

Tommie

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Sep 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/12/98
to
The best Liebestod ever was recorded by the great Jessye Norman! Leontyne
Price has a nice recording, but Norman has more clarity in her upper
register.

Tag Gallagher

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Sep 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/13/98
to
The Liebestod is a conductor's piece at least as much as a soprano's.
In this sense Flagstad with Erich Kleiber isn't topped.

Jerel Zoltick

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Sep 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/13/98
to
Listen to Nilsson and Bohm.....this a special type of greatness.
I was raised on Flagstad...but Nilsson Liebestod is something else.
Norman is not in this league.....

jerel

dtritter

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Sep 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/14/98
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Tommie wrote:
>
> The best Liebestod ever was recorded by the great Jessye Norman! Leontyne> Price has a nice recording, but Norman has more clarity in her upper> register.


Arrrgggghhhh.
an opinion on everything.
she never heard of fremstad, leider, lubin, flagstad, varnay, traubel,
or nilsson?
whoever the hell those amateurs were.


dft

dtritter

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Sep 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/14/98
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To substantiater the evident assumption here that the world was invented
last night while we all slept, the feckless post-pubescent Tommie wrote:
>
> Care for a broom to sweep up all the names you dropped.

The names dropped were Fremstad, Leider, flagstad, Varnay, Traubel and
Nilsson, total unknowns in the role of Isolde.

>It seems that> you certainly are filled with opinions.

This must come as astonishing news to readers in these fora.

> How about backing up your claims> with evidence.

I think that was meant to be a question. The answer lies in recorded
evidence of each of the listed hochdramatische monuments' performances
of the role in question and the tens of thousands of critics and
audiences who recorded the greatness of each.

> Why do you not critique Madame Norman's Talent instead of> listing every dead Isolde ever? It
seems that I am the only one whom is> backing up their claims with real
and truthful musical
critiques.

> poor brave tommie! it's lonely out there. the fact that Norman is a very inexperienced
isolde., whose principal contribution to the lore of the role is that
she is alive, though ill
suited to the role. Let's get to the voluble tommie's request for
comment: Norman has sung flat
frequently in performances of hers that I have heard dating from her
appearance as a Met
auditions finalist about 3 decades back.

> Anyone can> have an opinion, but in order to state fact, one MUST have evidence. Talk of>
such things as registers, clarity, vibrato, smoothness, and stage>
deportment...not, "Well, the
first famous Isolde was Nilsson, so she must be> the best." Their have
been many since hers'
that are much better.

> does she mean Christine Nilsson? "Their?" "hers'?" ... this from a self-proclaimed "english
minor.

tommie, tommie, tommie! how many performances of Tristan have you heard?
how many isoldes have you seen/heard from prelude to liebestodt? when
was the last time you opened a tristan score? you allege that i cannot
know about coloraturas because i have not sung adele, as you did in a
major production last week. now, how can you tell us about isolde,
presumably never having sung the role?

i guess that being a puerile novice with willful ignorance of the
subject matter, but an infinite willingness to substitute an open mouth
for humility ... none of that is criminal conduct,
but you're making a good case for remedial legislation.


dft

dtritter

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Sep 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/14/98
to
To Tommie, whose generosity has enobled us all, I merely wish to say how
kind you have been to provide the intelligence below never previously
available to this wanderer in the wilderness. Beyond that, I am grateful
to know that "whom" may prove, under your tutelage, the Isolde of the
future. She will also express her thanks for having been objectified in
this ascent to immortality.

Now, for the rest of you poor ignoramuses,

Tommie wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote:
>
> The question was, "The best Liebestod," not the best Isolde; again, I must> ask you to see the difference in what you are asking, and what you are> saying.
>
> I am quite familiar with the role, but I am more familiar with the aria> because I taught it to a student soprano whom was in dire need of history of> the aria.
>
> Tristan, a Cornish knight, has been entrusted with escorting Isolde, an> Irish princess, to become the wife of his uncle, Mark, king of Cornwall.> They fall victim to a fatal love, and Tristan is mortally wounded by one of> Mark's men. Isolde reaches his side only to have him die in her arms.> Transfigured by a vision of her lover, Isolde sings the Liebestod.
>
> RICHARD WAGNER (1813-1883)
>
> Tristan und Isolde
> Act III
> Aria: Liebestod: Mild und leise
>
> Mild- mild, soft, calm
> und- and
> leise- soft, gentle, quiet
> wie- how, what, is
> er- he, his
> lächelt- smile
>
> How calm and quiet his smile!
> Mild and gentle is his smile!
>
> wie- how, what
> das- he, his, her, hers, that
> Auge- eye, eyes, sight
> hold- nobly
> er- he, his
> öffnet- open, opens
> How nobly he opens his eyes-
> How those eyes nobly his opens-
>
> Seht- see it
> ihr's- you do
> Freunde- friend, friends
> Do you see it, friends?
> See it you do, friends?
>
> Seht- see it
> ihr's- you do
> nicht- not
> Don't you see it?
> See it you do not?
>
> Immer- always, ever, more and more
> lichter- lighter, brighter
> wie- how
> er- he
> leuchtet- shines
> Ever lighter how he shines,
>
> stern-umstrahlet- star light
> hoch- high, great
> sich- he, him, his
> hebt- lift, raise
> To the starlight high he rises?
> rising to meet the starlight?
>
> Seht- see it
> ihr's- you do
> nicht- not
> Don't you see it?
> See it you do not?
>
> Wie- How
> das- his
> Herz- heart
> ihm- him, it
> mutig- bravely
> schwillt- swells
> How his heart it bravely swells,
> How his heart bravely swells,
>
> voll- full, whole
> und- and
> hehr- proud
> im- in his
> Busen- bosom
> ihm- him, it
> quillt- swells
> full and proud in his bosom it swells?
> full and proud it swells in his bosom?
>
> Wie- how
> den- his
> Lippen- lips
> wonnig- blissfully
> mild- mild
> süsser- sweet, sweetly
> Atem- breath, breathing
> sanft- softly
> entweht- escapes
> How his lips, blissfully mild, sweet breath softly escapes-
>
> Freunde- Friends
> seht- see it
> Friends, see it!
>
> Fühlt- feel it
> und- and
> Seht- see it
> ihr's- you do
> nicht- not
> Feel it and see it you do not?
>
> Hör'- hear, hears
> ich- I
> nur- only, but, merely
> diese- this, these
> Weise- melody
> Hears I alone this melody,
>
> die- the, this
> so- so
> wundervoll- wonderful
> und- and
> leise- gentle
> this so wonderful and gentle,
>
> Wonne- blissful
> klagend- say, saying, complain, lament
> blissfully saying,
>
> alles- come to an end, run out
> sagend- saying, telling, say, tell
>
> mild- mild, soft, calm
> versöhnend- reconcile
> aus- out of, from, by, in
> ihm- him, it
> tönend- sound, ring, tone
> Mild reconcile from his tone (speech)
>
> in- in
> mich- me, myself
> dringet- penetrate or pierce, break from, come from
>
> auf- on, in, at, of, by
> sich- oneself, himself, herself, itself
> schwinget- wing, swing, vibrate, fly, they soar
>
> hold- noble, nobly
> erhallend- elevated, get, obtain, receive, preserve
>
> um- round, about
> mich- me, myself
> klinget- ring, ringing
>
> Heller- bright, clear, light (-ly)
> schallend- roars (sounds, rings)
>
> mich- me, myself
> umwallend-
>
> sind- are
> es- is
> Wellen- waves
> sanfter- soft, gentle, mild, smooth (-ly)
> Lüfte- air, raise, lift
>
> Sind- are
> es- is
> Wogen- wave, billow, surge of
> wonniger- delightful, blissful
> Düfte- scent, fragrance, perfume (-ed)
>
> Wie- how, what
> sie- she, they, her, them, you
> schwellen- swell (out)
>
> mich- me, myself
> umrauschen-
>
> soll- output, target
> ich- I
> atmen- breathe
>
> soll-
> ich- I
> lauschen- listen
>
> Soll-
> ich- I
> schlürfen- drink, sip
>
> untertauchen- be overwhelmed
>
> Süss- sweet, sweetly
> in- in
> Düften- smell, have a scent, be fragrant
> mich- me, myself
> verhauchen- treat, immerse
>
> In- in
> dem- that, this, he, she, it
> wogenden- billow, surge, wave
> Schwall- swell, flood, torrent
>
> in- in
> dem- that, this, he, she, it
> tönenden- sound, ring (-ing)
> Schall- sound
>
> in- in
> des- the, that, this, he, she, it
> Welt- world
>
> Atems- breath
> wehendem- blow, wind, breath
> All- the universe
>
> ertrinken- drown
>
> versinken- sink
>
> unbewusst- unconcious
>
> höchste- supreme
> Lust- pleasure, desire, lust
>
> Mild and gentle is his smile,
> How those eyes nobly his opens-
> See it you do, friends? See it you do not?
> Ever lighter how he shines,
> To the starlight high he rises?
> See it you do not?
> How his heart it bravely swells,
> Full and proud in his bosom it swells?
> How his lips, blissfully mild,
> Sweet breath softly escapes-
> Friends, see it! Feel it and see it you do not?
> Hears I alone this melody,
> This so wonderful and gentle,
> Blissful sounds, all-saying,
> Mild reconcile from his tone (speech)
> In myself penetrating, in my being soaring,
> Bravely elevated, round myself ringing?
> Clear sounds, myself fold around,
> Are is waves of gentle breeze?
> Are is billows of blissful fragrance?
> How they swell, myself intoxicating,
> shall I breathe, shall I listen?
> Shall I sip, be overwhelmed?
> Sweetly in fragrance myself immerse?
> In the wave swelling, in the ringing sound,
> In the world-breath blown of the universe-
> drown, sink,
> unconcious-supreme passion!

Olaf

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Sep 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/14/98
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On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 21:36:32 GMT, scot...@europa.com (Grant Menzies)
wrote:

But it has been transferred to CD, and I have had it for some years
now; my CD-version states 1995. In Europe it is issued in Decca's
Grand Opera series and comes at mid-price. I think it is still in the
catalogue.


The number is 443 682-2

// Olaf

Matthew B. Tepper

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Sep 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/14/98
to
dtritter wrote:
>
> To substantiater the evident assumption here that the world was
> invented last night while we all slept, the feckless post-pubescent
> Tommie wrote:
> >
> > Care for a broom to sweep up all the names you dropped.
>
> The names dropped were Fremstad, Leider, flagstad, Varnay, Traubel and
> Nilsson, total unknowns in the role of Isolde.

A thought comes to mind which I scarcely dare express in words. The
presumably youthful and opinionated Tommie rises in rage at any
criticisnm, perceived or otherwise, of two singers: Kathleen Battle and
Jessye Norman.

Are there any traits in common between these two singers, other than
that 1) they are both opera singers; 2) both have had careers which now
seem to be decidedly past their peak (all the more regrettable to me in
the case of Miss Norman); 3) both are American singers? Am I zeroing
in, perhaps, on a further agenda?

Matthew B. Tepper

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Sep 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/14/98
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Another instance in which the American office of London Records has
grandly decided that consumers in the USA don't deserve to be able to
buy product which has been issued in Europe.

Skip

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Sep 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/14/98
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Another un-informed statement

Lis K. Froding

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Sep 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/15/98
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In article <6tev8k$g46$1...@news.advi.net>,
"Tommie" <color...@advi.net> wrote:

>The best Liebestod ever was recorded by the great Jessye Norman!
>Leontyne Price has a nice recording, but Norman has more clarity in
>her upper register.

"Tommie", or whoever you are ;-)

You seem to have a fixation on "best"; best coloratura soprano,
best male singer, best Liebestod, best this and best that. Frankly,
who cares who's considered the best? We all disagree about it
anyway. We like who we like, that's about it, isn't it?

Lis


LuciaMim

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Sep 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/15/98
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Lis wrote:>"Tommie", or whoever you are ;-)

>
>You seem to have a fixation on "best"; best coloratura soprano,
>best male singer, best Liebestod, best this and best that. Frankly,
>who cares who's considered the best? We all disagree about it
>anyway. We like who we like, that's about it, isn't it?

Not if you're looking for a fight with whomever. Can't think why any other
reason for posting such "FACTS/FACHS"

Mimi

ChasWinecf

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Sep 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/22/98
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I vote for Joan Sutherland's Liebestod.

Umbramafe

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Sep 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/23/98
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Have you ever heard Eillen Farrell's recording?

Shahrdad

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Sep 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/23/98
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Umbramafe wrote in message <19980923015250...@ng24.aol.com>...

>
>Have you ever heard Eillen Farrell's recording?

Yes, and as much as I love Farrell, I was disappointed. Great Immolation
Scene with Bernstein, however. I have never heard anyone reach the ecstatic
rapture of Nilsson/Bohm.

S.

Tobias Sjögreen

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Sep 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/23/98
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Nilsson/Böhm is the one for me.. It almost makes it worth listening to the whole opera.. the exstatic climax is together with the heavenly f-sharp makes it one of the strongest opera experiences I've ever had, every time.

Long live the swedish opera-singers.. especially Nillson, Björling and Hagegård.

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