Questions about roles and voice ranges
Slrdsyj
Siviglia is a tenor role. However, whenever I've seen or heard performances
of the role Figaro in Barbiere or simply performances of any of its arias, it's
often a baritone who plays Figaro or sings his aria(s) in a concert. I've
seen Bryn Terfel perform arias from this opera's role, and he is a baritone or
a bass-baritone. So, is the role of Figaro (Barbiere) a role that is
frequently shared by tenors and baritones? Or is it a role that CAN be shared
by tenors and baritones?
On this note, I've noticed that there is a number of male opera roles that
have been shared by basses and baritones, basses and bass-baritones,
bass-baritones and baritones. Are there any opera roles that have even been
shared by baritones and tenors?
Thanks in advance.
Drakejake
>Siviglia is a tenor role. However,
No, this is wrong. It is a baritone role. The tenor role is that of the Count
Almaviva. Domingo recorded Figaro some years ago but still sounded like the
tenor he always has been. But there is nothing to stop a tenor from singing
Figaro or Don Giovanni. Most tenors can sing the full baritone range but don't
have much power at the bottom of the baritone scale. But many baritones are
also weak down there. Some baritones can sing tenor roles but would probably
find them more tiring than their usual parts because of the tessitura.
JD
Premiereopera
><20030628211600...@mb-m12.aol.com>
>
>> Recently, I've read some place that the role of Figaro in Barbiere di
>>Siviglia is a tenor role. However,
>
>No, this is wrong. It is a baritone role. The tenor role is that of the
>Count
>Almaviva. Domingo recorded Figaro some years ago but still sounded like the
>tenor he always has been. But there is nothing to stop a tenor from singing
>Figaro or Don Giovanni.
Or the tenor that he once was- maybe.
What stops a tenor from singing these roles is the fact that the tessitura is
too low, and they cannot project these notes the way a baritone or bass can. At
least this is what stops a tenor who is not on an ego trip.
Let's hope against hope that Domingo never sings Figaro or Don Giovanni.
Besides his name, he has nothing to bring to these roles that hundreds of
baritones and bass baritones couldn't better by far.
Ed
Elizabeth Hubbell
Slrdsyj wrote:
>
> <snip> Are there any opera roles that have even been
> shared by baritones and tenors?
> Thanks in advance.
The only roles I can think of that have been shared by tenors and
baritones are Eisenstein in Fledermaus, Pelleas, Nero in Poppea, Danilo
in Merry Widow and Siegmund in Walkuere. But it would be misleading to
say that all these parts are _routinely_ shared by both categories.
Yes, Pelleas is, but the others usually veer more toward one category
than the other. Eisenstein and Siegmund are more often tenors and
Danilo is more often a baritone.
Nero is an odd case, since it was written for a castrato, and it lies
slightly low for a soprano and slightly high for a mezzo. But both
sopranos and mezzos have joined tenors and baritones in trying it.
I may be leaving out one or two such roles, so I look forward to any
other examples others here can give.
Cheers,
Geoffrey Riggs
www.operacast.com
GrahSndrs
Sorry, but Siegmund should never be sung by a baritone. It is a tenor part.
Unfortunately, Wagner for some reason wrote the first part of act 1 as if he
were writing for a baritone, but once you hit scene 3, you are in tenor land.
This is the problem with the role; the beginning is too low to be really
comfortable for a true tenor (pushed up baritones excepted).
Graham
Peter Armstrong
GrahSndrs wrote:
> but once you hit scene 3, you are in tenor land.
Goodness! Every time I've seen the Opera Siegmund died at the end of Act 2!
GrahSndrs
Sorry, should read; Act 1 scene 3
Graham
Jeffrey Snider
other baritones have tried it as well, but it is certainly a tenor
role.
What nobody has mentioned yet is the "Martin" baritone. Named after a
French high baritone (named "Martin"-imagine that!) this voice type
lies between baritone and tenor. The "definitive" role for this voice
type is considered to be Pelleas. There have even been scores where
this type is listed. ("Marouf" by Rabaud is one.)
In musical theatre it is not uncommon to call a singer a "bari-tenor"
and the roles for such a voice are very commonplace in that realm.
Karen Mercedes
Pelleas, in PELLEAS AND MELISANDE
Danilo, in DIE LUSTIGE WITWE
Dr Falke (also Eisenstein), in DIE FLEDERMAUS
Street Singer, in DIE DREIGROSCHENOPER
Macheath, in THE BEGGAR'S OPERA
Antenore, in Rossini's ZELMIRA
Gernando, in Rossini's ARMIDA
Orin Mannon, in Levy's MOURNING BECOMES ELECTRA
Roland Lacy, in Argento's THE SHOEMAKER'S HOLIDAY
Dancaire, in CARMEN
Wilhelm, in LES CONTES D'HOFFMANN
Le capitaine francais, in L'ATTACQUE DU MOULIN
Mangus, in Tippett's THE KNOT GARDEN
Orestes, in IPHIGENIE EN TAURIDE
A bunch more in operettas (e.g., Dr. Daly in THE SORCERER, Paquillo and
2nd notary in LA PERICHOLE, Robert in THE NEW MOON, Bunthorne in
PATIENCE, Red Shadow in THE DESERT SONG, Cyril in PRINCESS IDA,
Counsel for the Plaintiff in TRIAL BY JURY, Ange Pitou in Lecoq's LA FILLE
DE MADAME ANGOT, Le Chanteur des serenades in Saguet's LES CAPRICES DE
MARIANNE, Le Grand Pingouin in Ganne's LES SALTIMBANQUES, etc.)
I should also think that some of the baryton-martin roles other than
Pelleas would be appropriate, such as L'Annonciateur and L'Amante in
Tailleferre's LE MAITRE, and the title role in Fevrier's MAROUF.
Karen Mercedes
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
________________________________
The principles of the Sermon on the Mount are admirable, but
their effect upon average human nature was very different
from what was intended. Those who followed Christ did not
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They learned instead to use the Inquisition and the stake.
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Peter Armstrong
3. My little brain doesn't seem to ever register that Wagner's Acts are
subdivided into scenes, so for scene I read Act. The moment the curtain
goes up I am immersed in the Act and never notice the change of scene :-)
Peter A.
Newton Abbot, UK
Leonard Tillman
The roles shared by tenors/baritones are considerably fewer than those
of baritones/basses, likelier by happenstance rather than necessity.
- As for the bordering types of each, the baryton-martin category is
rarely in reference (at least in the US), as opposed to the
now-ubiquitous bass-baritone.
Of tenors and baritones, the music that seems most compatible and
successfully performed is the role of Danilo in The Merry Widow. I
immediately recall the tenor portrayals of Werner Krenn and Placido
Domingo.
Rather more often, the baritone gets to do this plum role. (If a
tenor, Danilo must be of notably heavier (or more "mature") sound than
Camille de Rossilon.)
In Romberg's operettas, the male lead is usually a baritone, and not
necessarily of light timbre, - with the tenor, a leggiero is generally
preferred, assigned the second lead, although *in concerts* featuring
the too-seldom-performed solos, the voice-types are commonly
interchangeable.
In strictly-baritone (operatic) roles, this sort of thing hardly
ever occurs, the Domingo recording of Il Barbiere di Siviglia being an
exception, - and one of controversy.
Best,
LT
"That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the
whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it." -- Rabbi
Hillel
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/30/2003 12:33 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <22448-3F0...@storefull-2277.public.lawson.webtv.net>
>
>
>The roles shared by tenors/baritones are considerably fewer than those
>of baritones/basses, likelier by happenstance rather than necessity.
>
> - As for the bordering types of each, the baryton-martin category is
>rarely in reference (at least in the US), as opposed to the
>now-ubiquitous bass-baritone.
>
> Of tenors and baritones, the music that seems most compatible and
>successfully performed is the role of Danilo in The Merry Widow. I
>immediately recall the tenor portrayals of Werner Krenn and Placido
>Domingo.
> Rather more often, the baritone gets to do this plum role. (If a
>tenor, Danilo must be of notably heavier (or more "mature") sound than
>Camille de Rossilon.)
>
> In Romberg's operettas, the male lead is usually a baritone, and not
>necessarily of light timbre, - with the tenor, a leggiero is generally
>preferred, assigned the second lead, although *in concerts* featuring
>the too-seldom-performed solos, the voice-types are commonly
>interchangeable.
>
> In strictly-baritone (operatic) roles, this sort of thing hardly
>ever occurs, the Domingo recording of Il Barbiere di Siviglia being an
>exception, - and one of controversy.
>
>Best,
>LT
Dear LT,
This is no coincidence. The term "baritone" was not used in Mozart's day.
All low male voices were termed "basso."
The Verdi baritone really is a low voice with an unusually high upper
extension.
Author Frank Martin conjectures that Verdi, whose companions were often farmers
and tradespeople, was used to the sound of baritone voices and thus he tended
to make that voice range his most frequent male protagonist.
==G/P Dave
Drakejake
Tenor and baritone roles do not overlap as much as baritone/bass. The
tessitura for Cavaradossi, for example is set several notes higher than for
Scarpia, and Puccini wrote very comfortably for the tenor voice, using the
middle voice as the central area, and not demanding the high lying lines of
Bellini or even Verdi.
We must make several distinctions about voices and ranges. There is range,
tessitura (average range or predominant range), effective range, vocal color,
etc. A baritone may have the same notes as a tenor but not be able to sustain
the voice in the higher register. A tenor may have the same notes as a
baritone but lack power in the middle and lower part of the baritone range.
The casting of voices also involves vocal color, lightness or darkness. Operas
of the 19th century typically cast tenors as young, leading men, while the
lower male voices were used to portray fathers, villains, and older men. To
cast a singer with a tenorish voice as Rigoletto and a dark, mature sounding
voice as the Duke of Mantua would conflict with the intended dramatic
relationships of the characters. Otello should have a darker, more powerful
voice than Cassio, for example, to express their respective personalities and
ages.
JD
Erik Arnesen
I don't know about the other songs. Pavarotti, for instance, recorded
that aria.
And it's range actually goes up to an a', at least in my score.
Leonard Tillman
Which also would explain the suitability of, in particular, his Don
Giovanni and Figaro for all three of the male lower-voices.
The coining of "baritone" or a similar term would eventually have
become necessary as the differences from (true)"basso" were/are too
obvious to allow for coverage by the latter "one size fits all" term.
>The Verdi baritone really is a low voice with an
> unusually high upper extension.
That very type, - when really low in pitch and massive of tone- , is
what's so often lamented now for its scarceness, and is *still* - even
in its lower register - sufficiently discernible from the genuine bass
(and bass-baritone) sounds.
>Author Frank Martin conjectures that Verdi,
> whose companions were often farmers and
> tradespeople, was used to the sound of
> baritone voices and thus he tended to make
> that voice range his most frequent male
> protagonist.
Therein might also be the sub-conjecture that the men occupying those
trades were likelier to have robust baritone voices than were the
"upper-class" gentry; -- and the reasonable assumption that in any
grouping of men, baritones would prevail, being of midrange tone and in
any case, the most common.
I recall a voice teacher saying that the tenor voice is, to some
degree, the rarest of the three general male categories. In my own
observations, it's the bass, - with the baritone still occurring most
frequently ( -- at least among Americans and Europeans. Among East Asian
male singers and speakers, the *tenor* seems to remain the most typical,
many with remarkable clarity and purity of tone, not to mention a
prodigious ease of mastery in the European singing styles and
languages).
>==G/P Dave
Operatunenity
A Verdi baritone can be bright and snarly like Leonard Warren or dark and
velvety like Bastianini. What makes a Verdi baritone is enough size and heft to
slice through heavy Verdi orchestration. You are right about the high notes,
they need high note and a high tessitura. Their register breaks however are a
half step lower than a tenor's. Register breaks determine passaggio and
tessitura, and ultimately define a voice type rather than color or even range.
Elizabeth Hubbell
Pavarotti recorded it??!! My ignorance is showing. I would certainly
be agog to hear that.
Cheers,
Geoffrey Riggs
www.operacast.com
P.S.: Must consult more with that battery of superannuated ushers and
absentee men's-room attendants.
Drakejake
>half step lower than a tenor's. Register breaks determine passaggio and
>tessitura, and ultimately define a
Tenors beginning covering at F or F sharp, so you are saying Verdi baritones
sing open up to E natural or F? A few tenors, such as Gigli, sometimes sang F
sharps and even Gs "open," without covering, but this is very unusual. Del
Monaco and Melchior may have covered E naturals from time to time.
JD
James Todd
most of the operettas at MGM written for tenors? Were they rewritten or
did he sing tenor. I read he also sang bass. Can most opera singers go
from tenor to baritone to bass?
Thanks, Jim
Leonard Tillman
>I understand Nelson Eddy always sang
> baritone in opera;
That's correct.
>however weren't most of the operettas at
> MGM written for tenors? Were they rewritten
> or did he sing tenor.
Some operettas, not Eddy's, were for tenors such as Dennis King*,
Allan Jones, Nino Martini, Dennis Morgan*, and over a decade later,
Mario Lanza.
With the possible exception of Maytime
(with King in the original stage version), no transposition was needed
for Eddy, whose timbre was between lyric and dramatic baritone.
(His enunciation in Italian and French was somewhat flawed, but the
voice and technique were solid and ever-consistent.)
>I read he also sang bass.
His range was extensive, but not a true bass even at the voice's
lower extremity. He did record Gremin's aria, however, -- and
impressively on its own merits.
>Can most opera singers go from tenor to
> baritone to bass?
Most would never try; in any case, the results would be less than
genuine.
One of the few to travel that "journey" (and then some) was Ramon
Vinay, who was in turn baritone, heroic tenor, back to baritone, and
near his career's finish, a bass ( - but always best known for his
tenor-phase, most notably as Otello).
>Thanks, Jim
Best,
LT
( ** King and Morgan were sometimes miscategorized as baritones, -- as
were John Raitt and Harve Presnell, btw.)
Karen Mercedes
Not entirely true. Eddy sang the tenor role of the Drum Major in the
debut performance of WOZZECK at the Metropolitan Opera.
Premiereopera
>From: Karen Mercedes dal...@radix.net
>Date: 7/1/03 12:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Pine.GSO.4.43.030701...@saltmine.radix.net>
>
>On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, James Todd wrote:
>
>> I understand Nelson Eddy always sang baritone in opera; however weren't
>> most of the operettas at MGM written for tenors? Were they rewritten or
>> did he sing tenor. I read he also sang bass. Can most opera singers go
>> from tenor to baritone to bass?
>
>Not entirely true. Eddy sang the tenor role of the Drum Major in the
>debut performance of WOZZECK at the Metropolitan Opera.
I believe this performance took place in Philadelphia, not the Met.
At the Met, Kurt Bum sang the Drum Major in the Met prima o Wozzeck, I believe.
Ed
http://www.premiereopera.com for the best opera on CD, VIDEO, CD-ROM Sale still
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daniel f. tritter
i don't believe so. and i think it was stokowski conducting.
dft
=====================
Karen Mercedes
when they were on tour in New York, and the performance did indeed take
place at the Met BEFORE the Met did their own premiere of the opera.
Valfer
repertoire.
"Can be sung" can be made to mean many things. Caruso recorded
"Vecchia Zimarra", but this doesn't mean that the aria can be sung by
a tenor. "Largo al factotum" was originally done by a bass (Cesare
Sterbini), but soon became the property of baritones.
Range alone cannot rule which singer should be assigned a part.
Pelleas can be sung by a baritone, but unless the singer has a light
and easy high range, the singing becomes effortful, thus ruining the
lightness required by the music. The part of Di Luna in Il Trovatore
ranges higher, but no tenor will ever attempt it.
Another example is Nemorino in L'elisir. The part ranges lower than
Tannhauser and Walther, yet nobody expects a Wagnerian tenor to sing
it.
Valfer
erika...@hotmail.com (Erik Arnesen) wrote in message news:<c06ba49c.03063...@posting.google.com>...
Commspkmn
<< You surely mean Domingo. Pavarotti has never strayed from the tenor
repertoire. >>
I'm pretty sure Pavarotti sang "La ci darem la mano,"- with Sheryl Crow, of all
people.
Best,
Ken Meltzer
daniel f. tritter
1959, more than a quarter century after the stokie performances.
dft
========================
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
be typed in news:ad3a18ad.03070...@posting.google.com:
> You surely mean Domingo. Pavarotti has never strayed from the tenor
> repertoire.
Well, there *was* that horrid "La ci darem la mano" with Sheryl Crow on one
of his charity concert CDs.
--
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