Pronunciation of Gotterdammerung :(-
Niklaus Vogel
How should one sound the vowel in the third syllable of
"Gotterdammerung" (Goetterdaemmerung for the hyper-correct)? Over and
over by people who should know, I hear a short "A" as in Gotter DAM
erung. But I usually hear it sung as Gotter DAME erung. What little I
know of German tells me it should be the long "A" as in the latter
example.
Can anyone provide an authoritative answer?
Thanks,
Squire Hein...@interaccess.com
TNR
>How should one sound the vowel in the third syllable of
>"Gotterdammerung" (Goetterdaemmerung for the hyper-correct)?
>
>
The "a" is open (ie ä) so the pronunciation is neither like DAM nor DAME
but more like an "eh" sound, as in the word "gem".
Steve Milne
goet-ter-dem-er-ung
I had "git" ..... initially. The "goet" was my wife's suggestion !!
--
Steve Milne
Lis Milne
E-mail st...@coppull.demon.co.uk
10062...@compuserve.com
|
Stephan Melosch
:
: It is pronounced Goetter DAME erung but with short "A".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: The a-umlaut AE is best approximated by the English "pair", "fair", "there" etc
: without the "-er" sound at the end. Sometimes AE is short (like
: "Goetterdaemmerung"), sometimes long (like "waehlen" --to choose, to elect).
: For those of you who have experience with the phonetic alphabet:
: "AE" is denoted by "epsilon".
: Enjoy the tongue gymnastics
: Stephan
Reading my posting after I have sent it to the newsgroup I realized
that it might be confusing.
Excuse me ......
Although Niklaus Vogel asked about the length of the vowel "A" (and it is
short in Goetterdaemmerung!) there is a difference in sound between "dam"
and "dame".
To make the point, in "Goetterdaemmerung" the sound is more like "dame"
(without the "i"-sound at the end/ or like "fair" without the "er"-sound)
and the length is like in "dam" ! :-)
However, speaking and singing a word is different: it is ok to sing
Goetter DAAAAAME rung if there is a long note in the third syllable.
Wagner might have written it that way.
The confused confusing
Stephan
Joseph Nachman
>over by people who should know, I hear a short "A" as in Gotter DAM
>erung. But I usually hear it sung as Gotter DAME erung. What little I
>know of German tells me it should be the long "A" as in the latter
>example.
>
>Can anyone provide an authoritative answer?
>
>Thanks,
>Squire Hein...@interaccess.com
>
>
In German, a vowell follwed by a two consonants, or a double consonant is
always short. Hence it's Goetter DAM erung.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Nachman Department of Biochemistry
nac...@gene4d.med.utoronto.ca University of Toronto
Medical Sciences Building
tel: +1 416 978-5510 Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A8
fax: +1 416 978-8548 Canada
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephan Melosch
: This has been bugging me for years:
: How should one sound the vowel in the third syllable of
: "Gotterdammerung" (Goetterdaemmerung for the hyper-correct)? Over and
: over by people who should know, I hear a short "A" as in Gotter DAM
: erung. But I usually hear it sung as Gotter DAME erung. What little I
: know of German tells me it should be the long "A" as in the latter
: example.
: Can anyone provide an authoritative answer?
: Thanks,
: Squire Hein...@interaccess.com
Sure:
It is pronounced Goetter DAME erung but with short "A".
Peter Wollenberg
>This has been bugging me for years:
>How should one sound the vowel in the third syllable of
>"Gotterdammerung" (Goetterdaemmerung for the hyper-correct)? Over and
>over by people who should know, I hear a short "A" as in Gotter DAM
>erung. But I usually hear it sung as Gotter DAME erung. What little I
>know of German tells me it should be the long "A" as in the latter
>example.
>Can anyone provide an authoritative answer?
>Thanks,
>Squire Hein...@interaccess.com
Heinrich,
the ae - as a german I am hyper-correct ;-) is pronounced like the a
in "tank" or "bang". By the way, the oe is pronounced like the u in
"turkey" and the u like ou in "you".
Peter
--------------------------------------------------------------
ptp...@krzsun.med-rz.uni-sb.de Peter Wollenberg
Dept. of Pharmacology and Toxicology Univ. d. Saarlandes
Homburg/Saar Germany
--------------------------------------------------------------
DOSIS SOLA FACIT VENENUM PARACELSUS
--------------------------------------------------------------
Tauser
those who read this newsgroup) use the article, "Die", as in "Die
Goetterdaemmerung". Wrong - there is not any article. Wagner liked the
terseness of the title. Tauser
Jon Conrad
And also, putting it as a single-word "Gods'-Dusk" makes it mean
something different than if it had "the" in front. I think it was Shaw
who preferred the translation "Dusk Falls on the Gods," which gets the
feeling of the German as close as anything.
Related but even more off-topic: there are other musical titles that
have no article but are often erroneously given one in print. Such as:
MESSIAH (no "The")
WINTERREISE (no "Die")
PAGLIACCI (no "I")
GAY DIVORCE (the stage musical -- no "The")
Jon Alan Conrad
Michael Whincop
>>This has been bugging me for years:
>>
>>How should one sound the vowel in the third syllable of
>>"Gotterdammerung" (Goetterdaemmerung for the hyper-correct)? Over and
>>over by people who should know, I hear a short "A" as in Gotter DAM
>>erung. But I usually hear it sung as Gotter DAME erung. What little I
In which opera? I don't recall 'Goetterdaemmerung' ever being sung in
the Ring.
Dave Seaman
Jon Conrad <con...@brahms.udel.edu> wrote:
[Re: Goetterdaemmerung without an article -- not "Die Goetterdaemmerung"]
>Related but even more off-topic: there are other musical titles that
>have no article but are often erroneously given one in print. Such as:
>
>MESSIAH (no "The")
>WINTERREISE (no "Die")
>PAGLIACCI (no "I")
>GAY DIVORCE (the stage musical -- no "The")
Even though the article is not part of the title, I think it often gets
added by native speakers in informal speech. I remember hearing
articles used even with proper names in German, such as "der Mozart"
(sounds a bit like "The Donald"). I think Italians do this, too, but I
have not taken any Italian courses.
Dave Seaman
Lydian
Lydian
Charles W Haxthausen
"demmerung" comes closest. If there were only one 'm' it would sound
like 'dame'.
Mark Haxthausen
Omigurt
Niklaus Vogel
In which opera? I don't recall 'Goetterdaemmerung' ever being sung in
the Ring.
In the final moments of Siegfried, just before the "Sie ist mir ewig,
ist mir . . ." stuff, Brunnhilde sings "Gotterdamm'rung dunkle herauf!
Nacht der Vernichtung neb'le herrein!"
That's the only occasion I know of.
By the way, in American English, people also sometimes add articles
where they shouldn't go. One way to tell a Chicago native is to hear him
or her say "I'm going to the Jewel" which means he or she is going to
the grocery store, Jewel being the predominant chain here.
Finally, never be afraid to ask a question: Look at all we've learned
here!
Niklaus Vogel
>Why not just call it the G-d damn boomerang and be done with it?!
he he he!!! : )
Anna Russell used to pronounce it "damn" in one of her numbers, I
suppose to get the most out of the line:
Gutrune, die gotterdammerung gebitch.
Richard Mix
: the ae - as a german I am hyper-correct ;-) is pronounced like the a
: in "tank" or "bang". By the way, the oe is pronounced like the u in
: "turkey" and the u like ou in "you".
I dont doubt that your German is absolutely correct, but in much
of the anglophone world we dont go around saying "taenk" or "baeng".
The noise we make instead is rare on continental Europe; I have read that
it is found in the Estonian pronuciation of the name Pa:rt. But then I'm
always wondering how much of what I read on the net I should believe.
btw, if you heard me pronounce "turk" you might think it sounds
closer to the second sylable of "Goetter" than the first.
Richard Mix
"In England, we pronounce his name `Gounod' instead of `Goaty'"
LIZ
>
> just kidding,
> Paul
That's a good one! My sister can't help but
pronounce it "gooter-dammer-rung"
but I believe it's pronounced
"Gerteh-daemer-roong." Is that right, or have
I made it too confusing? liz.