Recommandation for La Forza del Destino
Dominique Gascon
attempted to order it but it appears to have gone out of print on me.
Suggestion for a replacement version; I need a version in good stereo
sound with a libretto.
Another annoying deletion is that the New Moïse et Pharaon (Rossini
Opera Classics with Pertusi, Workman et al) which appears to become
unavailable also (tried MyMusic, MusicLovers & MDT)
Dominique Gascon
Pointe-au-Père, Québec, Canada
dominiqu...@cgocable.ca
Tom Kaufman
Grigorian. The 1869 version is a tougher call--the Masini is probably the best
(with Caniglia and Tagliabue), but the Sleale duet (my favorite number in the
opera) is cut.
I can't think of any others to recommend, but would suggest you keep searching
for the Sinopoli.
cheers
Don Tomasso.
Tom Kaufman
URL of web site:
<A href="www.geocities.com/Vienna/8917/index.html"><Tom's site</A>
Commspkmn
sound with a libretto. >>
I think that any of the following are preferable to the Sinopoli. Carreras is
far from his best-he is heard to much better effect in a 1978 La Scala
performance now issued on MYTO.
My stereo picks would be:
1. London-Tebaldi, del Monaco, Bastianini, Siepi, Molinari-Pradelli,
conducting.
2. RCA-Price, Tucker, Merrill, Tozzi, Schippers, conducting.
3. EMI-Arroyo, Bergonzi, Cappuccili, Raimondi, Gardelli, conducting.
4. RCA-Price, Domingo, Milnes, Giaiotti, Levine, conducting.
These are listed in my order of preference. All feature libretti, and are in
fine sound.
For alternative versions (not in stereo and no English-language libretti), an
early 50s Met broadcast (Music and Arts) with Milanov, Tucker, and Warren (I
prefer this to the mid-50s broadcast), a 1953 Florence performance (Foyer) with
Tebaldi, del Monaco, and Protti, and a 1958 Naples performance (Golden Age of
Opera) with Tebaldi, Corelli, Bastianini and Christoff are all thrilling.
Ken Meltzer
joe...@earthlink.net
in gramophone magazine with their phone number.
Dominique Gascon wrote:
> I had settled on Sinopoli's version on Deutsche Grammophon, and even
> attempted to order it but it appears to have gone out of print on me.
>
> Suggestion for a replacement version; I need a version in good stereo
> sound with a libretto.
>
Tom Kaufman
>far from his best-he is heard to much better effect in a 1978 La Scala
>performance now issued on MYTO.
Who are the supporting cast on the Myto? Does it have a libretto (as if I
needed one), and is it complete?
But do enjoy the Deutsche Gramophone--it is my favorite version of Forza II.
Cheers
Don Tomasso
m.elliot
Undoutedly the best Alvaro is Domingo but his is the only good thing about
the Levine recording as Price is so very very rough and worn in the middle
and lower registers - AVOID at all costs. But I cannot prasie here earlier
1964 version with Schippers enough - she is fresh and warm. This version is
a great all round version and features a rather uninvolved but well sung
Alvaro from Tucker. You may want to try the Muti which is fast but features
the delightful Mirella Freni not taxed by the role and Domingo again (though
not quite as good as for Levine); it also features Zancanaro a much
underused and distinctive baritone. The mezzo doesn't really matter in this
opera so it isn't worth choosing a version for her alone, although Baltsa
does make the Sinopoli memorable. I am still slightly disappointed with
Plowrights performance here considering here wonderful singing in the
Guilini Trovatore. I'm rambling but really want to say try to listen to
Gardelli (Bergonzi a dream), Muti (Freni great), Sinopoli (slow but
involving) and (Serafin or is it Votto) for Callas. But decide on
Schippers - at mid-price from RCA with Merrill, tucker, Price and Verrett it
is by far the best all round version and features THE best sung Leonora on
disc.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Martin
wk...@my-deja.com
"m.elliot" <m.el...@classicfm.net> wrote:
(perceptive comments snipped)
> Undoubtedly the best Alvaro is Domingo
Uh, oh. Here we go again...
Bill
--
William D. Kasimer
wk...@juno.com
Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level, and then
beat you with experience.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ed Rosen
tied for first!!
Ed
Ed Rosen
wouldn't sing out at most of the rehearsals. Muti insisted that he sing
out, and Cura said somethink to the effect that if the Maestro would just
allow him to not sing out in this one more rehearsal, he, Cura, would give
Muti the best Alvaro he ever heard. Muti said, "I have already heard
Richard Tucker!"
And to think that I have been critical of the wonderful Muti! :-)
Best,
Tom Kaufman
Undoubtedly???????????
Tom
james jorden
> True story: recently Muti was rehearsing Forza with Jose Cura. Cura
> wouldn't sing out at most of the rehearsals. Muti insisted that he sing
> out, and Cura said somethink to the effect that if the Maestro would just
> allow him to not sing out in this one more rehearsal, he, Cura, would give
> Muti the best Alvaro he ever heard.
"Alvaro" is Milanese slang for "oral sex," right?
==============
james jorden
jjo...@bellatlantic.net
www.parterre.com
"I cannot begin to describe the filth backstage." -- Kyra Vayne
GRNDPADAVE
it be uncut and of the 1869 version.
That limits the field considerably since this opera was more prone to cutting
than just about any of Verdi's mature operas.
For me the best of the field is the recording conducted by James Levine.
Domingo and Milnes were both in prime condition and their 4 duets are
thrilling.
In addition Leontyne Price, while not in prime vocal condition, was still a
better Leonora, imho, than anyone save her 1964 self.
Bonaldo Giaotti is a very sonorous Father Superior and Gabriel Bacquier an
adept Melitone. Add a stirring Preziosilla from Fiorenza Cossotto and a
wheedling Trabuco from Michel Senechal and you have a very strong lineup.
Domingo never compromises either dignity or passion of Don Alvaro. The legato
is smooth, the tone burnished and ringing when called upon to be so.
==G/P Dave
Ed Rosen
Ed
Steve Silverman
"GRNDPADAVE" <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000721211105...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
> For me the best of the field is the recording conducted by James Levine.
> Domingo and Milnes were both in prime condition and their 4 duets are
> thrilling.
>
> In addition Leontyne Price, while not in prime vocal condition, was still
a
> better Leonora, imho, than anyone save her 1964 self.
>
> Bonaldo Giaotti is a very sonorous Father Superior and Gabriel Bacquier an
> adept Melitone. Add a stirring Preziosilla from Fiorenza Cossotto and a
> wheedling Trabuco from Michel Senechal and you have a very strong lineup.
>
> Domingo never compromises either dignity or passion of Don Alvaro. The
legato
> is smooth, the tone burnished and ringing when called upon to be so.
I would broadly agree with much of what Grandpa Dave says. For me the thing
that really sells this recording is the sheer amount of electricity that
crackles and sparkles between Domingo and Milnes in each of their
encounters. In their solo moments, each delivers some of the most beautifiul
and intense singing they ever achieved in the recording studio. Milnes in
particular sings like a man possessed, bring Carlo's obsession vividly to
life. Dave is spot on with his assessment of DOmingo's contribution. It's
the soprano and bass that let this recording down for me. Although Price
does many beautiful things, there are just too many of the distracting vocal
mannerisms for which she became notorious here. Giaotti's voice has always
struck me as highly dependable but very dull.
For these reasons I tend to alternate between this recording and the Decca
under Molinari-Pradelli. Tebaldi sings beautifully but provides less
dramatic interest than Price, and Siepi's constant flood of golden sound
makes me go weak at the knees. As a bonus he also manages to give Guardiano
a personality that goes well beyond the usual holy gravitas routine.
Bastianini delivers little insight into his role - but who cares! Del Monaco
makes some thrilling sounds but is just too two-dimensional in this role.
After a while it feels like been beaten repeatedly over the head by a heavy
instrument.
Steve Silverman (st...@operaworld.fsnet.co.uk)
Essex
England
m.elliot
pietosa Vergine - rough as sandpaper. And I say that while currently
listening to Dove Sono by Ms Price (perfection). I'm afraid that while she
retained her range in her later career it was at the expense of smooth
legato. I agree that the duets between Muilnes (why isn't he hailed as the
greatest baritone of the 70's or is he?) and Domingo are wonderful, but to
me the heart of the opera is Leonora and if you wince while listening to her
then the whole thing is ruined. I can't even say that she makes up in
character what she lacks in voice.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 07/22/2000 3:43 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <39795...@news2.vip.uk.com>
Assessments of Leontyne Price's vocal estate are bound to vary. The only
deficiency I detect is at the lower portion ofthe scale where the tone is
occasionally hoarse.
Now as to the centrality of Leonora in this opera, I have my doubts. She is
totally absent from Act III. Her most considerable impact occurs in Act II
scene 2 and towards the end of the opera.
What makes her role so important is, imho, Verdi provided her with the greatest
soprano solo moments in his entire output. Not only do we have the "Pace,
pace, mio dio" soliloquy but there are the numbers in which her voice soars
over a predominantly male chorus (Act II Scenes 1 and 2).
Price's voice maintained a voluptuous quality for a very long period. She was
particularly alluring as both Leonoras, Amelia (BALLO), Elvira (ERNANI), Aida,
and also as the soprano voice in Verdi's Requiem.
As for Sherrill Milnes, I think he has been recognized by many critics as the
successor to Leonard Warren among Verdi baritones. There is a similar throaty
quality to his singing and stunning tenorial high notes. Oddly enough, while
Milnes was hugely successful in his recordings of Germont, Amonasro, Don Carlo,
Iago, Di Luna, I think he never was really good at Rigoletto. In the
Pavarotti, Sutherland recording he sounds overly fussy, trying to inflect
nearly every phrase rather than simply pouring out glowing tone where needed.
Warren instinctively knew where to strive for precise elocution and where to
just let it all hand out. Milnes is what I would call a "method baritone".
Most of the time I think the method is exemplary.
Another characteristic about Milnes and Domingo is their incredible teamwork.
They blend and contrast superbly without either trying to upstage the other.
Fine as they are, Di Stefano, Corelli, Del Monaco, Bergonzi do not strike me as
team players.
Bjoerling and Merrill, Tucker and Warren are other instances of superb tenor /
baritone teams.
At its core, FORZA is structured around the magnificent tenor / baritone duets,
the best of which Tom Kaufman has cited as "Sleale" -- and I agree with him on
that point.
The duettino "Amici in vita e in morta" (no one seems to have noticed this) is
startlingly akin to the Siegfried / Gunther duet in GOETTERDAEMMERUNG. Of
course, Verdi got there first (1862). Wagner followed in 1876.
I would be inclined to agree with M. Elliott, but he has, I think, overstated
Price's flaws and undervalued the loveliness of her instrument and the
musicianship with which she wields it.
==G/P Dave
A T
"GRNDPADAVE" <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000722062111...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
> As for Sherrill Milnes, ............(snip)
stunning tenorial high notes.
Steve Silverman
the
> successor to Leonard Warren among Verdi baritones. There is a similar
throaty
> quality to his singing and stunning tenorial high notes.
Dave, you won't get any arguments from me about Milnes's place in the
pantheon of great baritones, but it's interesting that we seem to hear
slightly different things in his voice. Describing sound is always difficult
but to me Milnes had an bright edge to his voice that always makes me think
of a blade or a laser beam (althought he was able to produce a meltingly
soft mezza-voce when so minded). Warren, on the other hand, (and I hear the
same thing in Quilico) has a generally "fuzzier" core in his sound. OF
course, I never heard him live.Warren worshippers (of which I am one) please
note: this description is not meant to convey any negative connotations.
Just trying to find a way of describing sound.
Where I hear tremendous similarites between the two singers is in style and
phrasing. This, I believe, is the area in which Milnes took most from the
older man.
--
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 07/22/2000 6:05 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8lbvle$bor$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
I think, Steve, you are right about Milnes having a brighter sound.
Warren's voice, at its core, had considerable amplitude and warmth.
I think the two singers are closest in their interpretations of Amoasro. I
love Warren's precise elocution of the line: "D'Aida e'il padre e Etiopi del
re" declaimed with such care as though he is fearful of losing his dentures.
He subsequent offers a ferocious "No sei mia figlia..schiava!"
In the middle is a tripplingly lyrical "Rivedrai le foreste imbalsamente".
What a great role this is considering there is nothing in it that one might
call an aria.
Anyway, Milnes is very close to Warren both is sound and interpretation in his
portrayal of this character.
==G/P Dave
Ed Rosen
Tucker-Merrill in the RCA with Schippers. They sing with absolutely golden tone,
and dramatic involvement. And Price is far better here than in her later
recording of Leonora, though I still prefer Tebaldi, and even past her prime
Milanov on recordings. Of course, listen to Milanov in the live 1952 Met
broadcast, and you will here a live Leonora sung to perfection. I have never
heard a more gorgeous than she delivers here, except, perhaps, the Tebaldi Pace
from the 1953 Maggio Musicale Fiorentino performance with Mitropoulos.
I am not overly familiar with the Domingo-Milnes Forza. I'm sure it is fine,
but I did see them both do the roles live many times, and I was very
underwhelmed.
Siepi is heads and shoulders above any other Guardiano for my money, and
Simionato is the best Preziosilla. Corena, likewise is the best Melitone.
The London/Decca set is the very best all around Forza on commercial recordings,
for my taste. There isn't one weak link, except the occasional pedestrian
conducting of M. Pradelli. But, for the most part, he is fine. Tebaldi is a
miracle of gorgeous tone, in torrents of gold. Del Monaco is at his best, and
while his voice and singing is loud, he does attempt to modulate this at times.
And even if he didn't, that sound is truly awesome. Bastianini seems involved to
me, and matches his tenor with dark, burnished, gorgeous tone.
This is, and always has been, the Forza for me.
On the EMI, I think Callas is fine, though a bit wobbly, especially in the soft
parts of Pace. Tucker is tops, though very emotional. (I happen to love that.)
The weak spots are Tagliabue and Rossi-Lemeni. The baritone had a great career,
and was a wonderful singer, but here, as a replacement for the announced Tito
Gobbi, he just sounds old and tired, and his long scenes with Tucker are simply
too one sided, with Tucker pouring out the gold, and Tagliabue almost inaudible
at times, and sounding very worn and tired.
Rossi-Lemeni, as I've said before, is an embarrassment IMO. The most woolly tone
imaginable, and virtually voiceless.
Best,
Ed
Custo...@earthlink.net for free catalog of CDs, Video & Audio Cassettes
him...@my-deja.com
> Undoutedly the best Alvaro is Domingo
Agreed - but I'm definitely keeping out of this one! :-)
Rgds, Himadri
Vandehoot
>
For the deaf probably!. Domingo is absolutely unsuited for the role.
Rudi
Commspkmn
needed one), and is it complete? >>
Tom-
The cast is not too shabby—Montserrat Caballé, Piero Cappuccilli, Nicolai
Ghiaurov, Maria Luisa Nave, and Sesto Bruscantini.
There is an Italian-language libretto.
I believe it is complete.
And, there is no comparison between the way Carreras sounds here and in the DGG
studio recording.
Ken Meltzer
si...@webtv.net
the Price/Domingo/Milnes Forza and love it. Price may not have quite the
voice she had on her previous recording but her flaws aren't nearly as
bad as some posters have said (imho) It is still quite a good
peformance and she remains even here a wonderful Leonora. Just my
half-vast opinion (thanks Dave-I loved that line) Best John
donpaolo
Vandehoot <vand...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000722113836...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
> >>Undoutedly the best Alvaro is Domingo
> >
>
> Rudi
Tucker, DelMonaco, Corelli, Masini, Labo, even DiStefani leave PD in the
dust. He was plainly, disgracefully, bad the last time he tried Alvaro.
DonPaolo
Commspkmn
dust. >>
Paul-
There's more than one di Stefano?
Ken
Commspkmn
I agree with Paul that Domingo shouldn't have sung Alvaro as long as he did.
In the early years though, he could be quite exciting in the part. Still, he's
not my first choice by a long shot. I'd agree with Paul on his first four
choices.
Di Stefano is also thrilling in his own way in the part. I just have trouble
listening to someone commit vocal suicide, as he did when performing Alvaro.
Ken Meltzer
Andre Edouard
Think of Di Stefano as making his sacrifice for his adoring public, no matter
the consequences.
Think also of Pippo's ego and wallet.
I just missed repping his men's fragrance line..Dimenzione d' Homo.......it
never got to the point of meaningful retail interest in distribution in the
south-eastern states. This was at least 15-20 years ago. It did close out in New
York at reduced prices. Now there's a product I would have loved to sell.
Sort of makes Di Stefano the Oleg Cassini of Opera, sign his name to any
product.
Andre
DS445
performance of Forza ever committed to disc. That is the 1941 Italian
performance with a magesterial Maria Caniglia, the great Ebe Stignani, the
beautiful voice of Galliano Masini, a younger, prime sounding Carlo Tagliabue,
and the supreme Tancredi Pasero, one of the greatest basso's of the 20th
century. Under Gino Marinuzzi. A fascist bastard perhaps (I think is was
lynched or at least, assasinated) , but one great conductor.
Of the modern recordings (Stereo) , my favorite is the Decca with Tebaldi,
Simionato, Del Monaco, Bastianini, and my favorite basso, Cesare Siepi. The
conducting is ordinary, but the singing is celestial. Numero due is the first
Price recording under Schippers. This is prime Price, before she became a
monument. Tucker is at the top of his form, as is Merrill and Verrett. Tozzi
is good.
Other sets have individual great individual contributions. Obviously, the
second EMI with Martina Arroyo in perhaps her best outing on records, and the
always wonderful Carlo Bergonzi. Cappuccilli is very good also. The problem
here for me is the hollow bass voice of the baritone, Ruggiero Raimondi.
Unfortunatly, Milanov was well past her prime when her Forza was recorded.
Even so, she has her moments. Di Stefano, unfortunately, does not. He ruins
this recording. There were however exerpts recorded a few years earlier that
catch her in good form, fairly close to prime. As Ed Rosen mentioned, there is
the magnificent 1952 broadcast with Milanov, Tucker, Warren, and Hines. There
is also the 56 with Siepi, but Milanov is better in 52.
So putting aside the 1941 Caniglia, Stignani, Masini, Tagliabue, Pasero,
Marinuzzi recording, the best is the Decca with Tebaldi, Simionato, Del Monaco,
etc. and the first Price with Tucker, Merrill, etc. Except for the
Arroyo/Bergonzi/Cappuccilli, all subsequent performances are superfluous. Of
course, I am not including the Kirov 1862. Except for Grigorian and
Gorchakova, poorly sung, but interesting enough to merit inclusion in any
complete Verdi collection.
Don
Tom Kaufman
>performance of Forza ever committed to disc. That is the 1941 Italian
>performance with a magesterial Maria Caniglia, the great Ebe Stignani, the
>beautiful voice of Galliano Masini, a younger, prime sounding Carlo
>Tagliabue,
>and the supreme Tancredi Pasero, one of the greatest basso's of the 20th
>century. Under Gino Marinuzzi. A fascist bastard perhaps (I think is was
>lynched or at least, assasinated) , but one great conductor.
>
Something like:
"The Masini is badly cut, most significantly the great sleale duet"
I tend not to take recordings seriously if the cut either cabalettas or tenor
baritone duets, especially that one.
While I am at it, how about a note complete Forza (dreaming again) with
Caniglia, Stignani, Lauri-Volpi, Bechi and Pasero. Now that would be super. But
too late, alla
Don Tomasso
richard loeb
"DS445" <ds...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000723020223...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
> I'm surprised. No one mentioned what I think is probably the greatest
> performance of Forza ever committed to disc. That is the 1941 Italian
> performance with a magesterial Maria Caniglia, the great Ebe Stignani, the
> beautiful voice of Galliano Masini, a younger, prime sounding Carlo
Tagliabue,
> and the supreme Tancredi Pasero, one of the greatest basso's of the 20th
> century. Under Gino Marinuzzi. A fascist bastard perhaps (I think is was
> lynched or at least, assasinated) , but one great conductor.
>
richard loeb
"Tom Kaufman" <tomk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000723071212...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> >I'm surprised. No one mentioned what I think is probably the greatest
> >performance of Forza ever committed to disc. That is the 1941 Italian
> >performance with a magesterial Maria Caniglia, the great Ebe Stignani,
the
> >beautiful voice of Galliano Masini, a younger, prime sounding Carlo
> >Tagliabue,
> >and the supreme Tancredi Pasero, one of the greatest basso's of the 20th
> >century. Under Gino Marinuzzi. A fascist bastard perhaps (I think is
was
> >lynched or at least, assasinated) , but one great conductor.
> >
Commspkmn
never got to the point of meaningful retail interest in distribution in the
south-eastern states. This was at least 15-20 years ago. It did close out in
New
York at reduced prices. >>
Andre-
I have a vague recollection of Neiman Marcus including this cologne in its
catalogue. And, for some exorbitant fee, di Stefano himself would deliver the
cologne to your home and also sing some Neapolitan songs!
Does this ring a bell?
Ken Meltzer
Tom Kaufman
That's a bad cut--an awful cut in my book.
Saying that's not a bad cut would be like saying the elimination of the mad
scene oir the sextet in Lucia is not a bad cut.
De gustibus
richard loeb
1. the Sleale duet realy cannot be compared in dramatic importance to either
of the two instances you cited;
2. it's hardly one of Verdi's most inspired passages.news:20000723093711...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
OmbraRecds
>I have a vague recollection of Neiman Marcus including this cologne in its
>catalogue. And, for some exorbitant fee, di Stefano himself would deliver
>the
>cologne to your home and also sing some Neapolitan songs!
Why would the fee be exorbitant if Pipo himself delivered the goods and then
sang to you? One of our most important tenors in your own home singing those
gorgeous Neapolitan songs. I can't imagine anything more fantastic. I would
much rather have that, could I afford it, than some of the ludicrous things
rich people waste their money on, like spending $2,500 a seat for some of the
crap at the Met.
Patrick Byrne
Andre Edouard
Not my doorbell, I'm afraid logistics would have been a slight problem.
But, think of the yearly sales meetings........................
Andre
Commspkmn wrote:
> << I just missed repping his men's fragrance line..Dimenzione d' Homo.......it
> never got to the point of meaningful retail interest in distribution in the
> south-eastern states. This was at least 15-20 years ago. It did close out in
> New
> York at reduced prices. >>
>
> Andre-
> I have a vague recollection of Neiman Marcus including this cologne in its
> catalogue. And, for some exorbitant fee, di Stefano himself would deliver the
> cologne to your home and also sing some Neapolitan songs!
Commspkmn
sang to you? One of our most important tenors in your own home singing those
gorgeous Neapolitan songs. I can't imagine anything more fantastic. I would
much rather have that, could I afford it, than some of the ludicrous things
rich people waste their money on, like spending $2,500 a seat for some of the
crap at the Met.
Patrick Byrne >>
I would agree, in the abstract. However, remember this was di Stefano, circa
1980, not 1950. And, as I recall the fee was far in excess of $2,500.
Best,
Ken
Tom Kaufman
>1. the Sleale duet realy cannot be compared in dramatic importance to either
>of the two instances you cited;
I actually view it as the central duet of the opera. Remeber that the
relationship between Carlo and Alvaro play a key role in the drama, and that
this is where their enmity becomes "official". It is where Alvaro finds out
that Carlo has betrayed his trust.
>2. it's hardly one of Verdi's most inspired passages.
That's obviously a matter of taste. I happen to disagree, and find it one of
Verdi's greatest and most striking duets. But I do have a weakness for
confrontational duets.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 07/23/2000 8:48 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8JCe5.60177$A%3.80...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com>
>
>I don't agree because
>1. the Sleale duet realy cannot be compared in dramatic importance to either
>of the two instances you cited;
>news:20000723093711...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
>> >Actually its not badly cut - the Sleale duet is about it.
>>
>> That's a bad cut--an awful cut in my book.
>>
>> Saying that's not a bad cut would be like saying the elimination of the
>mad
>> scene oir the sextet in Lucia is not a bad cut.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don Tomasso
>> Tom Kaufman
>> URL of web site:
>>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cuts -- other than those made by the composer -- are always disfiguring.
Now we may disagree about our assessments of these works in general or of the
value of particular sections of them. I have always felt, for example, that
the second movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony detracts from rather than
adding to, the overall impact of the work. But I would not countenance a
performance that omitted it.
It so happens that I rather like the "Ne gustarmi m'e dato" duet. It acts as
the reversal of "Solenne in quest'ora" in establishing a negative
confrontration of these erstwhile "blood brothers".
I do not regard the 1884 (four act) DON CARLO as being a "cut" version, since
it represented Verdi's own last actual revision of the score. Efforts to
reattach the jettisoned Act I disrupt the balance of the work and cause us to
hear an inferior version of "Io la vidi".
I have never heard the Marinuzzi recording, but in view of favorable comments
concerning it -- despite the cuts -- I now will have to find and listen to it.
FORZA is, I think, the most choral-oriented of Verdi's mature operas. I am
especially impressed by the climax of Act II with the most beautiful religious
operatic music I have heard, namely "La Vergine degli' angeli". This moment
acts as a bookend to the Pilgrim's Chorus heard (offstage) in Act II Scene 1.
I also enjoy the bouncy "Rataplan" where Verdi clearly is paying homage to
Meyerbeer (a composer whose influence seems to have outweighed his direct
contributions to the repertory).
Because of the varied aural perspectives of FORZA, I think good sterephonic
sound is more significant here than in just about any of Verdi's operas.
Performance values, however, would still count for more than sonic engineering.
By the way, I have been privileged to see and hear a tape of a concert
performance in which two outstanding performers turn out to be none other than
our own Ed Rosen (Don Carlo -- a superb, passionate and dignified one at that
-- with a ringing top no less) and Charlie Handelman (as fine a Fra Melitone as
I have ever seen or heard -- his hand and facial gestures and fine bass
baritone voice are definite assets). I picture this Melitone becoming in later
life a missionary in Russia, enthralling his potential converts with tales of
the Calatravas and the kindly Father-Zossima-like abbot he once reported to.
==G/P Dave
==G/P Dave
Ed Rosen
most thrilling parts of any Forza performance, especially given a tenor with
ringing Bbs, and two tremendous B naturals at the scenes end. It is these very
notes that is the reason for it sometimes being omitted. It is just a killer for
the tenor. The baritone part in this scene is wonderful, but nowhere near as
difficult as the tenor.
Listen to it with Corelli or Tucker, in the heat of live performance, and then
see what you think!!
Ed
richard loeb wrote:
> I don't agree because
> 1. the Sleale duet realy cannot be compared in dramatic importance to either
> of the two instances you cited;
> 2. it's hardly one of Verdi's most inspired passages.
> "Tom Kaufman" <tomk...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000723093711...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
> > >Actually its not badly cut - the Sleale duet is about it.
> >
> > That's a bad cut--an awful cut in my book.
> >
> > Saying that's not a bad cut would be like saying the elimination of the
> mad
> > scene oir the sextet in Lucia is not a bad cut.
> >
> > De gustibus
> >
> >
> > Don Tomasso
> > Tom Kaufman
> > URL of web site:
Ed Rosen
now know why you enjoy RMO so very much!!
Ed
Tom Kaufman wrote:
> >I don't agree because
> >1. the Sleale duet realy cannot be compared in dramatic importance to either
> >of the two instances you cited;
>
> I actually view it as the central duet of the opera. Remeber that the
> relationship between Carlo and Alvaro play a key role in the drama, and that
> this is where their enmity becomes "official". It is where Alvaro finds out
> that Carlo has betrayed his trust.
>
> >2. it's hardly one of Verdi's most inspired passages.
>
> That's obviously a matter of taste. I happen to disagree, and find it one of
> Verdi's greatest and most striking duets. But I do have a weakness for
> confrontational duets.
>
richard loeb
"Ed Rosen" <custo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:397B0286...@earthlink.net...
> Oh, I must disagree with Richard Loeb. I think the Sleale duet can be one
of the
> most thrilling parts of any Forza performance, especially given a tenor
with
> ringing Bbs, and two tremendous B naturals at the scenes end. It is these
very
> notes that is the reason for it sometimes being omitted. It is just a
killer for
> the tenor. The baritone part in this scene is wonderful, but nowhere near
as
> difficult as the tenor.
>
> Listen to it with Corelli or Tucker, in the heat of live performance, and
then
> see what you think!!
>
> Ed
>
>
> > I don't agree because
> > 1. the Sleale duet realy cannot be compared in dramatic importance to
either
> > of the two instances you cited;
> > news:20000723093711...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
> > > >Actually its not badly cut - the Sleale duet is about it.
> > >
> > > That's a bad cut--an awful cut in my book.
> > >
> > > Saying that's not a bad cut would be like saying the elimination of
the
> > mad
> > > scene oir the sextet in Lucia is not a bad cut.
> > >
Capa0848
>From: ds...@aol.com (DS445)
>Date: 07/22/2000 11:02 PM Pacific
Of course, I am not including the Kirov 1862. Except for Grigorian and
Gorchakova, poorly sung, but interesting enough to merit inclusion in any
complete Verdi collection.
>
>Don
==============
I take it, though, that the sound on the 1862 Kirov was better than one might
expect?
Ana Chronistic
Enrique Eskenazi
<custo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Oh, I must disagree with Richard Loeb. I think the Sleale duet can be one
of the
>most thrilling parts of any Forza performance, especially given a tenor
with
>ringing Bbs, and two tremendous B naturals at the scenes end. It is these
very
>notes that is the reason for it sometimes being omitted. It is just a
killer for
>the tenor. The baritone part in this scene is wonderful, but nowhere near
as
>difficult as the tenor.
>
>Listen to it with Corelli or Tucker, in the heat of live performance, and
then
>see what you think!!
I am with Ed and Tom. While I still much appreciate the Masini/Caniglia
recording, I miss that duet a lot. One of my all-times favorite versions is
the Caruso/De Luca.
Regards
---
Enrique
eske...@teleline.es
Io chi sono? Eh, non lo so.
-Nol sapete?
Quasi no.
Michael E. Miller/Robert E. Seletsky
>
> Naturally, for me the standard for the tenor-baritone scenes in Forza is
> Tucker-Merrill in the RCA with Schippers. They sing with absolutely golden tone,
> and dramatic involvement. And Price is far better here than in her later
> recording of Leonora, though I still prefer Tebaldi...
Hello Ed. I no longer post to rmo, since Jordan seems to have some sort
of psychosis that makes it imperative to for him to insult anything I
say--even when my posts are directed to others. Anyway, I recently got
the Tucker/Merrill Forza, and I agree that it's superb. I have not heard
duet singing in this work as intense and with such a singleness of
musical purpose. Price is very good here, but a little...what should I
say...dumb in the way she approaches phrasing and other musical
decisions. Tebaldi is classic, if perhaps a little nasal and strained on
top.
> I am not overly familiar with the Domingo-Milnes Forza. I'm sure it is fine,
> but I did see them both do the roles live many times, and I was very
> underwhelmed.
It is far from fine. I bought this recording three times over a period
of twenty years, and returned it each time. It's just dreadful. Price
can't sing at all, and age has not made her any smarter. Domingo--and
Milnes to a lesser extent-- are interpretively generic. Cossotto is hard
and metallic. Levine has not a clue what to do with this music.
> Siepi is heads and shoulders above any other Guardiano for my money, and
> Simionato is the best Preziosilla. Corena, likewise is the best Melitone.
> The London/Decca set is the very best all around Forza on commercial recordings,
> for my taste. There isn't one weak link, except the occasional pedestrian
> conducting of M. Pradelli. But, for the most part, he is fine. Tebaldi is a
> miracle of gorgeous tone, in torrents of gold. Del Monaco is at his best, and
> while his voice and singing is loud, he does attempt to modulate this at times.
> And even if he didn't, that sound is truly awesome. Bastianini seems involved to
> me, and matches his tenor with dark, burnished, gorgeous tone.
>
> This is, and always has been, the Forza for me.
The Decca 1955 Forza is essential for everyone except MdM who shouts
even at tender moments; it really gets on my nerves, especially after
Tucker or Bjoerling in the duet album. Corelli would have been an
immeasurable improvement over MdM for someone singing in that style, and
it's a shame that in the live 1958 Naples Forza, that also boasts the
great Christoff, the Sleale is cut; between Corelli and Bastianini it
would have been as perfect, though different, as between Tucker and
Merrill.
> On the EMI, I think Callas is fine, though a bit wobbly, especially in the soft
> parts of Pace. Tucker is tops, though very emotional. (I happen to love that.)
> The weak spots are Tagliabue and Rossi-Lemeni. The baritone had a great career,
> and was a wonderful singer, but here, as a replacement for the announced Tito
> Gobbi, he just sounds old and tired, and his long scenes with Tucker are simply
> too one sided, with Tucker pouring out the gold, and Tagliabue almost inaudible
> at times, and sounding very worn and tired.
>
> Rossi-Lemeni, as I've said before, is an embarrassment IMO. The most woolly tone
> imaginable, and virtually voiceless.
Yes, the EMI Callas is a strange affair. She was just coming off the
diet and the wobble is not great. You do know, I guess, that Legge is
supposed to have told her, after a session, that if they issued the
recording in that state, they'd have to sell each copy with a bottle of
sea-sickness pills; they re-did some numbers that apparently were even
wobblier. However, her intensity and the brilliance of her musical
shaping more than make up for it, and really put her in a class by
herself (what else could you expect me to say?). Tucker is rather
cantorial rather than Gigli-esque--we've discussed this, about the same
as in his later recording, but somehow the later one with Merrill works,
while this one doesn't quite do so because Tagliabue was just too old.
And I have never understood what happened to Rossi-Lemeni; there is
virtually no pitch anywhere to be found in anything I have heard him do.
It's so odd: very dramatic phrasing without the notes; it's like
sprechgesang. Why did they keep using him, and why didn't he try to
rectify this weird vocal situation?
Best,
Bob Seletsky
james jorden
> Hello Ed. I no longer post to rmo, since Jordan seems to have some sort
> of psychosis that makes it imperative to for him to insult anything I
> say--even when my posts are directed to others.
When those posts contain direct lies about me, I like to set the story straight. As,
for example, in this case: you were caught out in a defensive and angry lie (that I
was banned from opera-l, which I clearly was not; check the archives and you will see
that I have posted there a number of times over the past month or so) and you refused
to apologize, prefering to hide and wait until everyone forgot about it. Well, I
haven't. But instead of admitting you were wrong (the action of a gentleman) you
continue to scream insults at every opportunity. In fact, you make an insult to me
the very preamble of your first appearance here in weeks. But I suppose that for
someone with so fragile a sense of self-worth as you have, that's easier than
acknowledging error.
You may now return to sulking. And I reserve the right to disagree with you,
especially when you take on that grating tone of smug superiority so familiar to
anyone who wades through your massive sermons.
==============
james jorden
jjo...@bellatlantic.net
www.parterre.com
"I cannot begin to describe the filth backstage." -- Kyra Vayne
donpaolo
DonP.
Commspkmn <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000722180300...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
> << Tucker, DelMonaco, Corelli, Masini, Labo, even DiStefani leave PD in
the
> dust. >>
>
Michael E. Miller/Robert E. Seletsky
>
> Robert E. Seletsky wrote:
>
> > Hello Ed. I no longer post to rmo, since Jorden seems to have some sort
> > of psychosis that makes it imperative to for him to insult anything I
> > say--even when my posts are directed to others.
>
> for example, in this case: you were caught out in a defensive and angry lie (that I
> was banned from opera-l, which I clearly was not; check the archives and you will see
> that I have posted there a number of times over the past month or so) and you refused
> to apologize, prefering to hide and wait until everyone forgot about it. Well, I
> haven't. But instead of admitting you were wrong (the action of a gentleman) you
> continue to scream insults at every opportunity. In fact, you make an insult to me
> the very preamble of your first appearance here in weeks. But I suppose that for
> someone with so fragile a sense of self-worth as you have, that's easier than
> acknowledging error.
>
> You may now return to sulking. And I reserve the right to disagree with you,
> especially when you take on that grating tone of smug superiority so familiar to
> anyone who wades through your massive sermons.
First, this posting was intended as a private e-mail to Ed Rosen, as he
can attest. I just pressed the wrong "Reply" button. I have stayed away
from here simply because having to spar with your caustic remarks really
is not in my nature, it was just no pleasure, and you're much more
experienced at it than I'd ever want to be.
Secondly, I did not knowingly "lie" about you. I do apologize for
anything untrue I wrote about you. I didn't not invent of it; I was
evidently misinformed about the List matter. In any case, it was also
inappropriate for me to include it, true or false, as part of this
discourse. I should never have allowed myself to write at the fever
pitch which seems to be part of own personal rhetoric. I have never done
so with anyone else.
I'm not certain how you can impute self-esteem issues to me after
generally interpreting my postings as being those of a person with
exactly the opposite view of himself. In reality, I am neither
self-deprecating nor conceited. Again, the operatic pitch of the
insulting remarks in your responses--even to things I have written in
response to the postings of others--tended to make me "rise [or fall] to
the occasion." Further, I don't sulk, certainly not over something
that's just intended as a recreational chat group--there are no stakes
here like tenure tracks, major publications, performances, reviews, etc.
I barely even have time to check in here when I'm not working on music.
You seem to take it rather more seriously than others who post here. And
you, like everyone else, are welcome, of course, disagree with me at
your pleasure, but it would be more fun if that disagreement wasn't
instantly couched in insulting, superior, and adversarial language. Even
now, referring to my posts as "massive sermons" written with "smug
superiority" is awfully and unnecessarily high-pitched, especially as
its sentiment does seem to have a bit of "the pot calling the kettle
tope" about it. To be honest, while you seldom seem to change your views
based on what others write to you here (at least, not that I have seen),
I find your posts informative, passionate, musical, and highly informed
(after wading through your mine-field of mean remarks); some of these
posts have indeed caused me to re-think and re-examine my ideas and
their sources. So, _pace._
Bob Seletsky
leo wisselink
a lovely sound.
Michael E. Miller/Robert E. Seletsky <mem...@sprintmail.com> schreef in
berichtnieuws 397BBEA2...@sprintmail.com...
Skip
Barberie... Mitropoulos is the conductor.
leo wisselink <wissel...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:L9Hf5.2919$63.58692@zonnet-reader-1...
> Well I can understand why jordan abuses you. Price was a great soprano
with
> a lovely sound.
> Michael E. Miller/Robert E. Seletsky <mem...@sprintmail.com> schreef in
> berichtnieuws 397BBEA2...@sprintmail.com...