Jussi Bjoerling's voice size
Ken B Lane
I consider the experience of hearing Bjoerling at the old Met. at Carnegie Hall
and other venues as among the most thrilling where timbre of the voice was
concerned.
In reality it was not a big voice, but it carried well because of its
open-throated production,his musicianship and his involvement in communicating,
but without undue histrionics.
I started going to the Met and concerts at age 15 when our family lived in
Jersey City. That was back in 1943. I was there at his last performance at
the Met. There was no way then of knowing that that was to be his last at
the Met. His voice was always focussed with squillo and fresh-sounding.
Met Opera star mezzo Karin Branzell who worked with John Forsell, who also
taught Jussi, explained Jussi's technique. [ I studied privately with her and
also at Manhattan School of Music.]
The unique easily recognizable timbre and lilt of his singing voice lent
masterpiece status to songs like Jeannie with the Light Brown Hair, which
indeed is a well-loved chestnut.
Another tenor closely contemporaneous of Jussi, Eugene Conley, who was not in
the same superstar category of vocalism, nevertheless always sounded
considerably stronger-voiced on radio and records than in live performance.
Quality, more than size, in non-heroic roles, is paramount.
Kenneth Lane
Charlie Handelman
showed maybe he had some off nights in the 50's...I always wish the ROMEO was
accurate..but i fear the voice was still rather smallish...CH
My best, Charlie. Check out my website dedicated to the wonderful world
of opera, and request my huge free catalogue of live opera tapes.
Ken B Lane
recordings, but also he was one of the most consistently clear4-voiced of
singers, with no difficulty with the upper reaches of the acuti, the high C and
D flat.
Kenneth Lane, heldentenor
www.WagnerOpera.com
(973) 335-0111>Subject: Re: Jussi Bjoerling's voice size
daniel f. tritter
Charlie Handelman wrote:
charlie, as one who was there, the voice was not "rather smallish." if that was
your impression, i suspect that you forgot to doff your earmuffs on the way to
standing room. show of hands anyone who agrees with charlie on this one? i thought
not.
dft
Charlie Handelman
>to
I stood in the same places (even under an overhang) in the standee room...for
all the tenors...JUSSI did not project in the period I saw him..save for a
Ballo.....I think maybe the sad nature of his alcoholism caused a lot of
problems..I am sure he was better in earlier days......i hope so..but i do
recall my friend,who always made notes, wrtiing in the program "No impact" next
to his name......no real PING in the voice.....CH
alexis du champignon
-AdC
plac...@aol.comnojunk (Charlie Handelman) wrote in message news:<20030308081950...@mb-mq.aol.com>...
Andre Storfer
alexis du champignon wrote:
>
> Please! Jussi's voice was HUGE! Clean out your ears, Cholly.
>
> -AdC
>
Bjoerling's voice wasn't HUGE, fungus.
It was focused like a laser, giving the impression of greater size
than it naturally owned.
If I heard him once, I heard him twenty times.
Wherever one sat or stood, the voice sounded as if it was aimed at
the listener.
No "scooping," smooth as glass, and as PD says...somewhat cold.
Well, Pippo he wasn't.
He was in no danger of ever winning an acting award.
His voice was magnificent, gorgeous, but not HUGE.
Tritter is right, you're a fucking idiot.
AES
GRNDPADAVE
particularly large.
He was always audible (unlike Jan Peerce who was barely audible as Mario
Cavaradossi or Riccardo).
I saw Bjoerling only once -- in MANON LESCAUT -- and he rose to every occasion
in Puccini's most tenor-dominated opera.
His "O tentatrice" is one of the most heart-rending moments of anguish I have
ever heard.
==G/P Dave
Drakejake
weight lyric with a lot of head or nasal resonance but not much body or
solidity. His high notes were very easily produced. So, not a a Corelli or
even Bergonzi voice, but a voice that would cut and be audible.
JD
Leonard Tillman
theater, their recollections were generally of a voice not small in the
least, nor particularly large, but for a considerable carrying-strength,
-- his being an essentially lyric, later spinto tenor.
Enormity of volume was never his claim to prominence, but rather the
quality, most extraordinary beauty of the highest level,
along with an innate musicality/sensitivity to whatever his
performances, were part of the attraction.
To some, Jussi Bjoerling's characteristically Nordic sound seemed to
lack the "Italianate" quality most desired in much of his repertory, but
in this, he was no more lacking than numerous tenors of *actual*
Italian/Meditteranean lineage and background.
In his French roles, I've always considered him unsurpassed, if
equalled by some very few.
In any case, a Bjoerling recording, of *anything*, brings predictably
unfailing pleasure, and IMNTHO, can only be recommended most
enthusiastically to any who are new to collecting opera recordings of
the past.
LT
Premiereopera
>Date: 3/8/03 5:00 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20030308170059...@mb-fl.aol.com>
You are right on the money about this, drakejake. And I did see Bjoerling live
three times.
Ed
http://www.premiereopera.com for the best opera on CD, VIDEO, CD-ROM.
Check our website for exciting new listings on VIDEO & CD.
Drakejake
>>middle
>>weight lyric with a lot of head or nasal resonance but not much body or
>>solidity. His high notes were very easily produced. So, not a a Corelli or
>>even Bergonzi voice, but a voice that would cut and be audible.
>>
>>JD
>
>You are right on the money about this, drakejake. And I did see Bjoerling
>live
>three times.
>
>Ed
>http://www.premiereopera.com
I am happy that my speculation can be confirmed by someone who heard Bjoerling
live. One would not expect a middle weight lyric tenor to have a huge voice,
although light, bright voices can project very well. In a local Otello
production, the Cassio (Cangelosi) had a voice that seemed to project as well
as that of the Otello (Porretta). Cassio had a lyric sound, Otello had the
baritonal sound of the dramatic tenor. I also remember our Butterfly, in which
the bright, light voice of the Goro could be heard as well as the spinto voice
of the Pinkerton.
JD
>
>
Pepin...@netscape.net
Not even a Bergonzi voice?
Bergonzi would have sold his soul for Bjoerling's voice.
Wow, quel tete farshimmelt.....
Pensez vous que you were right on the money?
You sit on your wallet, n'est ce pas?
P Le J
skip
today would give their right arm to have.................
<Pepin...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:66870a17.03030...@posting.google.com...
J.Venning
(judging both at their prime, of course).
J.
Charles Lewis
they were both stupendous
>Not even a Bergonzi voice?
>Bergonzi would have sold his soul for Bjoerling's voice.
Charles J Lewis
Charles Lewis
that apparently no modern singer is capable of!
Charles J Lewis
J.Venning
J.
"Charles Lewis" <clewi...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030309042822...@mb-mc.aol.com...
dtritter
in suggesting a singer with a "characteristically nordic sound." i have
heard scandinavian singers [to name just a few] from branzell to
flagstad to thorborg to berglund to melchior to ralf to gedda to ulfung
to svanholm to bjorling to soderstrom to ligendza to nilsson to finnila
to rautuwaara to borg to talvela to mattila [to include, however
incorrectly, some scandinavian neighbors from finland] and over more
than some six decades, i have yet to identify a common thread which fits
that "characteristic nordic sound" used as a desscription here. granted
the ephemera of adjectives that describe human voices, just what the
hell does this mean?
dft
=======================================
dtritter
mr. hood plainly needs either new audio equipment or the services of an
audiologist. "not much body or solidity?" this doesn't even rise to the
level of a bad joke.
dft
Richard Loeb
"dtritter" <dtri...@bway.net> wrote in message
news:3E6A0264...@bway.net...
Premiereopera
>Date: 3/9/03 10:00 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <U6Gcnctmyoh...@comcast.com>
>
>Right he wasn't a Bergonzi voice - he was better, much better.
>"dtritter" <dtri...@bway.net> wrote in message
>news:3E6A0264...@bway.net.
I think the Bergonzi quote was concerning size of voice, not quality, though
both were supremely great tenors.
I saw Bjoerling three times, as I wrote, and Bergonzi countless. Bergonzi had
the bigger voice. Not as big as Corelli or Tucker or Del Monaco, to be sure,
but bigger than the Bjoerling voice.
Bergonzi made a career of singing, mostly, spinto-dramatic roles such as those
in Forza, Aida, Ballo, Trovatore, Ernani, and many more. Of course, he also
sang the lyric roles such as Nemorino, Alfredo, and the "in between" roles such
as Rodolfo, Cavaradossi.
He was a fine Canio, and Turridu.
Bjoerling also sang many of the above roles, but if one looks at the
statistics, from the time of his international career- say 1937- Bjoerling sang
the really heavy roles very rarely. I believe he only had two runs of Aida in
his career- 1937 in Vienna, and about 20 years later in Chicago.
When I first saw Bjoerling, in Cavalleria, I was a tad let down by the smallish
voice I heard when he made his entrance. The offstage Siciliana, with harp
only, sounded gorgeous. Of course, it may not have helped him to be singing
opposite Simionato as Santuzza. Her voice was huge and penetrating.
Don't get me wrong. I could hear Bjoerling. His voice was clear and carried.
But I had to strain to hear him at times. His voice was indeed gorgeous, but on
the smallish side.
Ed
http://www.premiereopera.com for the best opera on VIDEO, CD, CD-ROM. Thousands
to choose from, best prices, best service.
Richard Loeb
agree there is much more to it than that) than I am sure Bergonzi's was
bigger. (BTW didn't he start out as a baritone???)
"Premiereopera" <premie...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030309105907...@mb-ba.aol.com...
susurrus
> Bergonzi had nothing to complain about, he had everything that any tenor
> today would give their right arm to have.................
...............including a right arm.
Drakejake
title of this thread.
I consider Bergonzi one of the supreme vocalists, a perfect singer. At his
peak, perhaps 1955-65, he could do virtually anything with his voice from lyric
parts such as Nemorino to demanding, stentorian parts such as Radames. He used
a wide range of dynamics and was very, very expressive, but never excessive.
The diction was non pareil. He hit notes right on and had no need to slide.
He had some flexibility when this was needed. He sang within his ample
resources and didn't need to strain or force. His high notes, which declined
beginning about 1970, after over 20 years of singing, were glorious when he was
at his best--ringing, round, full of color, steady, secure.
Of course I am prejudiced because I consider the Bergonzi sound uniquely
gorgeous. Sorry, but for me Bjoerling isn't in the same league with Bergonzi.
Yes, Carlo sang several years as a baritone before he switched to tenor.
JD
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 03/09/2003 12:06 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <20030309130617...@mb-ml.aol.com>
I, too, have a high respect for Bergonzi's artistry.
Especially in Verdi where rhythmic and dynamic precision are vital, Bergonzi
was outstanding.
I do not, however, share JD's enthusiasm for the timbre. DiStefano's velvetty
quality is more to my taste, especially in Puccini.
As for diction, I think Bergonzi was less satisfactory in that regard than
either Di Stefano or Pavarotti, especially when dealing with sibilants.
Bergonzi also failed to master the French repertory to the extent that Di
Stefano, Carreras, Bjoerling, Domingo, Kraus and even Pavarotti managed to do.
Faust, Werther, DesGrieux, Don José fully reveal their treasures only when sung
in French.
Nevertheless, the first thought that occurs to me in considering Bergonzi's
musicianship is "intelligence."
==G/P Dave
Leonard Tillman
>lt, i am suddenly hearing you echo the pathetic
> tomassini of the nytimes in suggesting a
> singer with a "characteristically nordic sound."
Echoing Tomassini? I promise not to do such a thing. Ever.
> i have heard scandinavian singers [to name
> just a few] from branzell to flagstad to
> thorborg to berglund to melchior to ralf to
> gedda to ulfung to svanholm to bjorling to
> soderstrom to ligendza to nilsson to finnila to
> rautuwaara to borg to talvela to mattila
One would be hard-pressed to compile a more representative
assortment (most are great favorites of mine, btw).
-- Though of course *individuals*, they'd respectively tend to fit the
description, in varying degrees, -- no *negative* sense implied,
however.
>[to include, however incorrectly, some
> scandinavian neighbors from finland] and
> over more than some six decades, i have yet
> to identify a common thread which fits that
> "characteristic nordic sound" used as a
> description here. granted the ephemera of
> adjectives that describe human voices,
"Ephemeral", yes, but that to which we're limited when describing
matters that can only be subjectively experienced.
>just what the hell does this mean?
Dan, you might as well have asked what the hell "Italianate quality"
(as I also said) means; or for that matter, "the Spanish", "French", or
"Yiddish Cantorial" sounds mean... -- Granted, that last example is
powerfully distinct -- and to me, in a most positive way, -- as are
*also*, the aforemention "Italianate" and "Nordic" sounds.
( In "Nordic", I'd also find differences in "German" and
"Scandinavian" singing-voice qualities, *in kind*, -- not actually a
matter of *degree*, as each and every "Nationally Characterized" type
mentioned here has its exemplary, and in fact outstanding, performers.
As much so now as it was decades ago.)
There really aren't hard and fast lines of division in this..... but
merely qualities, real or perceived, not necessarily pronounced, that
strike any number of different listeners in as many ways.
Perhaps "Characteristically [fill-in any ethnicity]" is really *less*
a matter of voice per se, than of enunciation and style as commonly
*taught* in each respective tradition and geographic area; and of
countless subtleties "picked up" and adopted by each singer (or
speaker), that to others, is "linked" with these "types" -- whether or
not with consistent accuracy.
>dft
LT
( That said, I also believe there is somewhat *less* difference between:
A.)
What's generally considered the "typical Italian sound" and that of the
"Scandinavian",
-- than is to be heard between the *latter* and
B.)
The more ethnically/linguistcally related..."German sound".
Admittedly subjective, in any case, -- but that's inevitable.)
Jeffrey Meyer
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:3388-3E6...@storefull-2277.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Highly intelligent post, Leonardo.
--
Jeffrey
>
Leonardo
tapef...@webtv.net says...
>
>From: dtri...@bway.net (dtritter)
>
>>lt, i am suddenly hearing you echo the pathetic
>> tomassini of the nytimes in suggesting a
>> singer with a "characteristically nordic sound."
>
Hello my dear friend! How little time I had to answer to your e-mails! As soon
as I was about to answer to the one of February 23, you suddenly sent me your
February 26 one. Both of them are very much appreciated from my side! Although I
don't have plenty of time now, I will try to answer to your mails as carefully
as possible.
First of all, I must say that I visited your website of tenors--I feel ashamed
for not having done it before thoroughly! I FOUND IT SIMPLY MAGNIFICENT!! It is
just incredible that you were able to do it all by yourself, and I can hardly
imagine all the enormous amount of work involved in such an enormous task.
BRAVO!. However, there are several subjects I would like to point out, and you
will please excuse me if I can't explain them in full now, mainly for the lack
of time mentioned above.
I would like to remind you that I love opera I hold a PhD in Historic
Musicology, I am a writer/ operatic pianist, Musical Lexicographer (specializing
in Musicography and History of Performance Practice), a member of several
musical institutions worldwide, a permanent member of the "Argentine
Musicological Society" where I have published and lectured on research papers of
my own authorship since 2001, as well as writing regularly for many musical
magazines in Argentina and abroad, and finally a CD recording engineer/ producer
both in my country and abroad. Please excuse this short Curriculum Vitae which
will serve as a prelude to the points that follow, regarding your tenor site on
the Web.
1) I cannot understand the clasification you use regarding voice typologies as
applied to tenors. Where did you get those terms from? Most modern singing
pedagogues, myself included, do not use those terms at all, as nobody seems to
be able to scientifically specify what's the meaning of "spinto", "dramatic",
"lirico", etc. A singer undertaking a specific role does not make his voice
automatically fit into any of these classifications, which are quite absent
from, say, mid-nineteenth century singing treatrises. The timbre of the voice in
itself or the repertoire do not determine "razor blade" classifications, so I
would be extra-careful before using them.
2) It is very wise of you to classify singers by nationalities, but please also
remember that usually there were (and are) more than one, usually many, singing
"schools" in each country. Nicolai Gedda may sound "Italian" to many, but he is
a Swede, and so is the case with Placido Domingo, who is a Spaniard, and whose
type of voice has little to do with the typical Spanish Zarzuela tenor. Examples
could go on and on to hundreds of names.
3) Please re-check the discographies of some of the older singers, as most of
the discographies you list are plagued with mistakes of all kinds, sorry to say.
Excepted from these are the discographies you transcribe directly from Alan
Kelly, which are in a class of their own. I believe his name should be mentioned
in your page, as he is today's most important discographer, together with
Michael Henstock and William Moran.
4) The chronologies by Charlie Handelman are excellent. However, I wonder
whether these are essential as to be included in such great detail on a web
page, as they are meant to be used for scholars, and not for the average opera
lover. However, this is just my humble view, and I might be completely wrong
regarding this particular point.
5) Your classification of "tenors who do nothing for me", etc. is something I
really do not understand. Which musical/ technical or esthetic criteria did you
use for this? I would appreciate your comments so I can have a guide.
6) There are many great tenor names missing, the one instantly coming to mind
being Abdrea Bocelli. Of course it is very difficult to include everyone, but
this is another point to consider, don't you think?
7) Why do many of the singers have no photographs? And why do many of the older
ones have lithographies when photographs can be easily obtained from USA's
leading vintage autograph and photograph dealers?
8) Why a tenor page and not a OPERA SINGER page? No baritones, no basses.
9) Any trouble with "the fair sex"? Female singers will be permanently excluded
from your page?
Once all this is said, I must once again extend my congratulations to you for
having been the very first at compiling such a huge amount of information
(however erratic) and make it available to all! May it long last!
Your last mail is entirely devoted to Prof. Jesus M. Lopez's Paoli book again. I
thought we had both written enough on this subject. Why are you so insistent? Do
you want to stress any particular point? You seem to be excessively concerned,
worried and upset by the appearance of Mr. Lopez's book, and your remarks in
your last mail, although correct, really get into an obsession from your side.
The book is terrible, we know, and shouldn't have been published at all, but
then why use so many words and get into such detail? If it is of so little
merit, let the book lay aside, and let time be the judge!
Your mention of Placido domingo as a "secondary tenor" is another mystery to me.
Please specify what a "secondary tenor" is for you in musical/ technical terms.
I have never encountered such a term anywhere before, at least, not in music
books.
Private mail regarding record exchange deleted Thank you for your patience!
Please keep in touch,
Leonard
Premiereopera
>Bergonzi also failed to master the French repertory to the extent that Di
>Stefano, Carreras, Bjoerling, Domingo, Kraus and even Pavarotti managed to
>do.
I don't believe that Pavarotti ever sang a role in French, except the famous
Fille. And his French was so dreadful as to make Corelli sound like a
Frenchman!!!
Pav did do an occassional aria in concert in French, but the only one I can
think of is the Pourquoi from Werther.
He recorded the Faust aria, and the Flower Song from Carmen, among others. Just
listen to his Flower Song. The words, which I know, are completely
unrecognizable.
For the record, Bergonzi sang at least two complete roles in French, and his
French sounds good. Werther, and Carmen.
Leonard Tillman
--
>Jeffrey
And yours is a highly intelligent appraisal, Jeffrey, as always. --
Ergo, one I must decline to dispute.
Leonard "Mr. Agreeable" Tillman
Leonard Tillman
service, wrote:
>From: tapefa...@webtv.net (Leonardo)
and has so considerately decided to answer DFT "on my behalf":
>Hello my dear friend! How little time I had to
> answer to your e-mails! As soon as I was
> about to answer to the one of February 23,
> you suddenly sent me your February 26 one.
> Both of them are very much appreciated from
> my side! Although I don't have plenty of time
> now, I will try to answer to your mails as
> carefully as possible.
Why not try instead, Pineiro the Clever, to answer to the MSNTV
Service as carefully as possible, should they decide to correspond with
you -- as emphatically as possible?
Leonardo Il Quello Genuino Tillman
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
letters to be typed in news:b4g54...@drn.newsguy.com:
> 6) There are many great tenor names missing, the one instantly coming to
> mind being Abdrea Bocelli. Of course it is very difficult to include
> everyone, but this is another point to consider, don't you think?
And isn't it a shame that Pamela Anderson wasn't nominated for an Oscar?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay? http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead: Mark Coy.
Charles Lewis
no-one has mikes there
my point was that Bjorliing was well audible in the cavernous albert hall --
no-one sings there these days without mikes, Pavarotti was hogging the mile
three or so years back, leanig forward on every phrase he was trying to sing
piano
Charles J Lewis
J.Venning
at the Royal Albert Hall in the early 70's - I can't remember the exact
date: there must be a way to ckeck and confirm this. He opened the concert
with "Tu ca nun chiagne" and ended the hour-long program with "Č lucevan le
stelle" as encore. No, of course he did not use any mikes.
J.
"Charles Lewis" <clewi...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030310032636...@mb-bk.aol.com...
Sergio H. da Silva
"Drakejake" <drak...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030309130617...@mb-ml.aol.com...
Sergio H. da Silva
voice sounded bigger, the same or smaller than Pavarotti ?
Premiereopera
>Date: 3/10/03 12:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <Jc4ba.3302$bh2...@fe09.atl2.webusenet.com>
>
>Smallish side ... can you compare to a recent tenor ? Would you say his
>voice sounded bigger, the same or smaller than Pavarotti ?
No, about the same as Pavarotti, though it didn't project as well in the lower
middle as Pav. However, I much preferred Bjoerling to Pavarotti in just about
every way, especially singing with "slancio."
Bjoerling was never boring. For me, Pav frequently was.
Ed
http://www.premiereopera.com for the best recorded opera. Compare for yourself.
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
letters to be typed in news:b4g54...@drn.newsguy.com:
> 6) There are many great tenor names missing, the one instantly coming to
> mind being Abdrea Bocelli. Of course it is very difficult to include
> everyone, but this is another point to consider, don't you think?
And isn't it a shame that Pamela Anderson wasn't nominated for an Oscar?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay? http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead: Mark Coy.
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
Path: newsengine.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged) " <oyþ@earthlink.net>
Control: cancel <Xns933A513E48...@207.217.77.21>
Newsgroups: rec.music.opera
Subject: Cancel "Re: "National" Voices? (Re: Jussi Bjoerling's voice size"
Message-Id00: The Chinese Ducked Press
Reply-To: oyþ@earthlink.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) trialware
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <a76ba.2250$Ix2....@news.uswest.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 11:57:16 -0800
NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.87.115
X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1047326278 216.161.87.115 (Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:57:58 CST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:57:58 CST