Singing problems
Charlie
Many of you have studied singing for some length of time,and by now
you may have heard the statement made that "each teacher KNOWS the truth" about
vocal technique. Well,if that were true, there would a "universal technique"
and we know that there are so many so-called " correct methods" and only after
spending many years, and lots of gelt do we discover that we are either on
the stage of the Met, or hopelessly in need of a new teacher.
I first started to take lessons merely to become acquainted with
"what it takes to get out there and do it," never dreaming I would actually "do
it" myself with some measure of success. I have been through lessons with 4
teachers, each of whom have given me some assistance, but I still contend that
one must glean from various sources,and no one individual is "God" (try to tell
that to your teacher!!).
I had a most enlightening experience last wek with a new teacher
who has been a friend for many years;he showed me so much about correct
support, something not really stressed by some of the others, and after a
miserable summer of allergies and fear that i might never sing again, I felt as
if the voice was "floating" so easily, and I began to regain some of the
confidence I had lost in the past months. Remember this guy Charlie suffers
from the "Maledizione" of the phonograph record, and consciously or
unconsciously,I need to sound like either Ramey,Bastianini, or whomever, when
all I need is to settle down and sound like ME!
What have been your experiences with various teachers and what
do you feel you are doing now as a singer that is good and/or bad..and do you
think you are on the right road? For me it is a hobby, but I am as serious
about singing as if the composers were sitting right there in the audience and
I want to do my best on any level. I hope to return to my "second life" as soon
as I learn more about proper support, less vocal tension, and especially to
stop thinking I am rotten if I do not sound like Leonard Warren!!! My best
Charlie l'umile ancello del genio creator.
As ever Charlie,who invites you to check out my live opera website at:
LuciaMim
Date: Sat, 28 August 1999 10:38 PM EDT
Message-id: <19990828223846...@ng-fo1.aol.com>
Charlie:
According to a "great" teacher I had years ago, there used to be a universal
method of teaching "in the olden days" - Problem was most young singers (way
back when I started studying - and no, don't ask) were not content to spend
months learning how to breath, stand, support, and more months learning scales,
etc. She did her best but felt compelled to throw in an aria after a few
months - after doing the scales, mi, mi, mi's etc.
I had this huge voice and expected I would be a dramatic or at least spinto.
To say the huge voice was unwieldy, would be understating the case. She got it
into shape - but guess what, she insisted I sing lyric pieces and keep the
voice as light as long as possible. I went to this teacher because I liked her
background, her teachers, and listened intently to her pupils. At that time
(and things have only gotten worse) certain teachers tended to turn out certain
kinds of voices. One was noted for turning everyone into a Lily Pons
coloratura. Another - spintos and dramatics. This great lady, looked at every
student, male and female as an individual and worked very hard to help place
the voice. But you had to stand straight, breath properly, support, support,
support!
I was the odd one, though she confided. According to all SHE had been taught,
I was not breathing according to the "old" methods taught for so many years.
She told me she thought of changing my breathing method, but considered that it
might just mess me up - I had so much breath I could spin out long legato
phrases to my delight - and, of course, hers, with no shortness of breath - and
I am not a BIG lady. She had been a student of Florence Easton, among others.
Through her I met Ms. Easton, a lovely lady - too late, however, she died a
short time later, but I did coach Butterfly with her, despite my teachers
objection that I should not be singing it. We decided to just do "Un bel di"
What a time the 3 of us had! It's my fondest memory to date.
The universal method - the Marchesi method, etc, is out of favor because it
requires too much time, too much effort and not fast enough turnout of arias,
roles, etc. But that was the reason singers back then could sing forever and
sing such a wide repertoire. A singer was (like Lili Lehman) a soprano -
period!!!!
Best wishes,
Mimi (aka Floria) BTW, she did not allow me to sing Floria, but I did have to
know where my diaphragm was, what it was for, and in certain exercises keep my
hand there so I could feel the staccato coming from there rather than MERELY
the throat! That's why I understand Nilsson's use of the Queen of the Night
aria to warm up! It's great for the diaphragm - of course, if you use it, you
must bring it down to a comfortable level, just as you do with the original
scales until you get all the way up there!!!!
Lars Henriksson
to sound like Fischer-Dieskau for, say, five years. A few months ago my
teacher said that I sounded much better since I tried *not* to sound like
DF. I guess this is part of maturing as a person; ie. not trying to be some
other person that yourself.
But my forte lies in the Verdi bass arias anyway, so there I could not dream
of trying to achieve a DFD sound. Ghiaurov's sound is impossible to placate,
and why should one try to do that anyway?
I guess singing is much about trying to achieve a natural a sound as
possible, it to struggle to *remove* things in the voice that should not be
there. It's largely a *negative* "science", a bit like psychology, perhaps..
But the comparision falters, I guess...
Lars
Charlie <plac...@aol.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:19990828223846...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
Charlie
NO!!!One was enough!!!! BE YOURSELF!! or else maybe Herman prey.a real
voice..CH
Lars Henriksson
In Lieder, Prey was superbly bland and boring, but I rate his Guglielmo as
the best on disc.
Lars
Charlie <plac...@aol.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:19990829095713...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
Eduardo J Baez
Charlie <plac...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990828223846...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
Klytemnest
That was the most sincere and lovely of all your posts! Thank you for your
honesty and openness.
For me singing is first of all a joy, a pleasure. Not merely physically
though. I get a lot of pleasure out of expressing honest emotions with my
voice. Once I sang a role that was vocally wrong for me -- John Proctor in
The Crucible. But that was the most satisfying emotional experience I have
ever had on stage -- because I got to do some real, honest, profoundly
emotional singing. I don't often get to do that in the lighter repertoire.
Anyway, I am a baritone; I started to study voice when I was 19. My teacher
decided that I was trying to superimpose maturity, so she decided to strip my
sound of all of that darkness. So, I ended up sounding like a musical theater
tenor. I had an even tone form top to bottom, I was very musical, and I was a
good actor - so I won every competition in town. Even the Met auditions in my
district at the age of 23! But I always got the same comment - your voice is
young, not mature yet. So, I figured, oh, I'll wait for maturity to arrive.
Easy, right? NOT! Sure, my youth was partially responsible for my youthful
sound, but technique had a lot to do with it. I believe that singers who want
to sing opera need to study with opera singers, need to learn how to sing like
opera singers. Lieder were wonderful for me - I became a good musician, I
learned a lot about languages, styles, etc. Great! But I really feel like I
should have spent more time studying OPERA SINGING. I listen to recordings
almost as much as Charlie does, so I was OK. I won't even get into the special
requirements for opera singing. But my point is that these days students are
required to learn way too much rep before they have had a chance to figure out
what they are doing with their voices. My first year in college I had to learn
six songs. The second year - 8, the third - 10, and the fourth - 12!!!
That's`almost one song per week! That's too much. For some people it takes a
week or so for them to get the piece "in their voice." I wish I didn't have to
spend so much time learning rep; I wish I could have started with pure
technique and I wish I could have spent much more time worrying about all of
that stuff, rather than about musical styles, languages, acting, etc. All that
stuff is terribly important, but it should have come second.
Now I am a professional opera singer and I am pretty happy with my technique,
although there is always room for improvement. I am letting the natural
maturity and timbre of my voice come in, without thinking to myself "Oh, we
wouldn't want to superimpose maturity, would we now?" I am not trying to
"think tenor - that's the sound that will carry" anymore. I am using my own
voice - and you know what? I like it. So there:)
Klytemnest
space. My first teacher almost never talked about the larynx. She always
talked about placement and nasopharyneal resonance. So I worked on making a
snarly, frontal concentrated sound. Last year I ttok a few lessons with a
teacher, Judith Natalucci (now teaching in NY), who suggested that I was not
singing with a low enough larynx. That was her thing - the low larynx thing.
She was the first one who introduced me to the idea that in order for one to
sing with one's complete voice, one must have both the "frontal" sound that I
had been taught and the "depth" achieved by the low laryngeal position. That
was one has both "spectra" of the voice. Bright alone does not carry as well,
and is not as "beautiful" as brightness PLUS depth. That has been a recent
revelation in my singing, and so far it's working.
I know tenors rarely work on depth, and I suppose that is why there are so many
tenors out there with really bright, penetrating voices. Recently I befriended
Charles Castronovo - a tenor who will be making his Met debut as Beppe in
Pagliacci next month, I believe. He is only 24, but he has a naturally darker
tenor voice. After a few years of study he was able to achieve a nice ringing
tone - and the combination of his natural dark tone plus the "ring" that he has
been working towards, is a really nice one. His sound is one of the most
beautiful tenor sounds I have ever heard. Watch out for him! So for me he has
served as a wonderful example of this bright plus depth theory. Any comments?
Charlie
fan....and good luck!! Chuck
As ever Charlie,who invites you to check out my live opera website at:
jzydek
have been written by me. I'm simply amazed. I have gone through the same
thing!!
June
Klytemnest <klyte...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990829180651...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
donpaolo
Just thought - did you, too, have to endure those maledetti Conconi &
Vaccai vocalises? Also, how about those songs from the yellow books - caro
mio ben, Nina, vittoria, et. al. God, how I hated them & was bursting to
belt out arias, arias, arias!
DonP.
Ron D'Argenio
mar is a helluva lot more exciting, but they sure beat "Drink to me only with
thine eyes." Besides, they're great warm-up pieces.
donpaolo wrote:
--
Ron D'Argenio, aka Don Ron
CarusoDelMonacoCorelliGigliThillSchipaLauriVolpiPertileMelchiorDiStefano rules.
Deborah Overes
donpaolo wrote in message <01bef33f$6378c160$8c75accf@default>...
>Hey Mimi & Everyone Else Who(m) Sings -
>
>Just thought - did you, too, have to endure those maledetti Conconi &
>Vaccai vocalises? Also, how about those songs from the yellow books - caro
>mio ben, Nina, vittoria, et. al. God, how I hated them & was bursting to
>belt out arias, arias, arias!
Don P .... I think they repossess your vocal cords if you refuse to sing the
"24 Italian Songs and Arias of the 17th and 18th Century", preferably in the
lovely yellow Schirmer cover you mention. Never had to do the vocalises,
but the 'arie antiche' were my bete noir. Now, I actually like a lot of
them. Go figure.
Deborah Overes
"If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?"
Mark D. Lew
<donp...@erols.com> wrote:
> Just thought - did you, too, have to endure those maledetti Conconi &
> Vaccai vocalises? Also, how about those songs from the yellow books - caro
> mio ben, Nina, vittoria, et. al. God, how I hated them & was bursting to
> belt out arias, arias, arias!
I remember when I used to feel that way, too -- until I started becoming
more interested in doing whatever it took to improve the sound of my voice.
Now I swear by Vaccai. Yes, I know, they're so terribly boring, but
whenever I'm working on an aria and I work and I work and I still can't
seem to make real the sound that my artistic imagination wants to create --
that's when I know it's time to get out the Vaccai and get back to basics.
There's a reason teachers prescribe it: It really does work. It's the same
with Hanon for pianists.
Deborah Overes added:
> Don P .... I think they repossess your vocal cords if you refuse to sing the
> "24 Italian Songs and Arias of the 17th and 18th Century", preferably in the
> lovely yellow Schirmer cover you mention.
One of my former teachers likes to call that book the "Double Dozen Dago
Ditties".
mdl
Keith
are my observations. In my and a number of my colleagues experience, having
a teacher with whom you are comfortable both personally and vocally is very
important. Obviously a talent for teaching is paramount but you can't
survive a teacher you hate.
I would also say in my experience that a good friend or two who know what
they are talking about and will tell you when you are letting standards slip
is a godsend (if you can take it!). Finally if you are singing opera in
public only sing roles you are comfortable with and know you can do justice
to as there are lots of people out there who get a great deal of pleasure
out of doing you down. Don't let 'em.
Keith
> As ever Charlie,who invites you to check out my live opera website at:
>
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/handelmania
Ivrys88
>I think they repossess your vocal cords if you refuse to sing the
>"24 Italian Songs and Arias of the 17th and 18th Century", preferably in the
>lovely yellow Schirmer cover you mention. Never had to do the vocalises,
>but the 'arie antiche' were my bete noir. Now, I actually like a lot of
them. Go figure.
"Caro Mio Ben" was transfigured forever for me when I heard Mirella Freni open
a recital with it.
LuciaMim
Date: Mon, 30 August 1999 07:25 PM EDT
Message-id: <01bef33f$6378c160$8c75accf@default>
>Hey Mimi & Everyone Else Who(m) Sings -
>
>Just thought - did you, too, have to endure those maledetti Conconi &
>Vaccai vocalises? Also, how about those songs from the yellow books - caro
>mio ben, Nina, vittoria, et. al. God, how I hated them & was bursting to
>belt out arias, arias, arias!
>
>DonP.
Dear DonP.
Yep! Had to do the Conconi & Vaccai - that's why you and I still can sing so
well today, dontcha know!!
My teacher set the Caro mio ben as the first aria(song) for males. However,
females got "Voi che sapete," much better IMHO! Then whenever I would get
carried away with a Puccini aria - it would be back to that yellow book - no
passione likethere like Vissi d'arte, for instance!
In the olden days, they didn't want you wearing yourself out - bursting out
with all the Puccini passion - Mozart was more than enough, and if you overdid
even there, it was back to Paisiello, et al.
Nowadays, it sounds like most of them are just taught Puccini - without first
learning how to sing. Just my opinion, of course, but like I said that's why
you (and I) still sing so well!<g>
Best wishes,
Mimi
minis...@my-deja.com
years now. I started very late, but I am only doing this for my own
pleasure although my current teacher says I am doing well enough to
perform in public, YIKES!!
I wanted to sing opera so I started with an opera teacher. She had
such an incredible depth of knowledge and sang so well herself, but she
was a lousy teacher. I never learned much about technique and we kept
doing harder and harder arias. Finally I was singing The Doll Song from
Hoffman, she thought I was ready, I disagreed. Sure I could hit all the
notes, sure I could cope with the coloratura stuff, but would anyone
want to hear me, I don't think so. No way did I have the technique to
sing that aria well. I also felt very much like I was a meal ticket
and that my teacher really didn't care much about my progress. So,
I found myself a new teacher.
My current teacher is a jazz and blues singer although she does teach
classical. However, I am the first opera singer she has worked with and
I think it is a bit of a learning experience for her. First big plus
is that she really cares about my progress and she is terrific fun to
work with, we laugh a lot in my lessons. She is a demon about correct
technique and I have now learned good breathing technique and correct
use of my diaphragm. Support, support, support she says and I have
improved just so much. My voice is much richer, much more resonant, my
husband now loves hearing me practice.
Ideally I would prefer a teacher with more opera teaching experience,
but my jazz singer teacher has been the one who has taught me the most,
and I really enjoy my lessons, so I think I will stay put for now at
least.
BTW I love those old Italian pieces, not only do they really highlight
problems, they are quite lovely when mastered. Cecilia Bartoli did
a recording of almost all of them called "Arie Antiche" I think. I
actually have a newer version than the Schirmer, it has two extra pieces
so I have 26!!
Good luck to all singers out there
Tracey
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
donpaolo
Deborah Overes <dov...@sprint.ca> wrote in article
<eLFy3.80399$jl.51...@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>...
>
> donpaolo wrote in message <01bef33f$6378c160$8c75accf@default>...
> Don P .... I think they repossess your vocal cords if you refuse to sing
the
> "24 Italian Songs and Arias of the 17th and 18th Century", preferably in
the
> lovely yellow Schirmer cover you mention. Never had to do the vocalises,
> but the 'arie antiche' were my bete noir. Now, I actually like a lot of
> them. Go figure.
Boy o Boy are you ever right! I am indeed happy that it is all behind me,
although I do miss the performing!
Regards,
DonP.
donpaolo
Ron D'Argenio <rdar...@erols.com> wrote in article
<37CB29D4...@erols.com>...
> Hey DP, whatsa matter with Caro Mio Ben, or Come raggio di sol? Sure,
Cielo e
> mar is a helluva lot more exciting, but they sure beat "Drink to me only
with
> thine eyes." Besides, they're great warm-up pieces.
Hay Don Ron, don't knock it _ I got a recording of Valletti singing the
heck outta "Drink to me", along with "Believe me if all those endearing
young charms".
Hell, a tenor's tenor ought to "warm up" (IF that's really necessary) with
Esultate!
Wid Rispetto,
DonP.
donpaolo
Mark D. Lew <mark...@earthlink.newt> wrote in article
<markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>...
> In article <01bef33f$6378c160$8c75accf@default>, so
Yeah, Yeah - I know, I know....but they also used to believe castor oil &
anemas were also "good for ya". Blech to all of these!!!!
Regards,
DonP.
Ron D'Argenio
donpaolo wrote:
--