An overture and a prelude. Any differences?
Slrdsyj
is, a prelude at the very beginning of an opera)? Or are they the same thing?
This question came back to me, when I see and hear references to the
orchestral opening of Carmen. A few years ago, I used to see and hear
references to it as an overture, and I still do now. However, as of the last
two years, I see people write about it and hear people talk about it as a
prelude.
So, are an overture and a prelude the same thing? If not, then how do they
differ?
Thanks in advance.
Feuillade
> In operas, are there any differences
> between an overture and a prelude
> (that is, a prelude at the very beginning
> of an opera)? Or are they the same
> thing?
<snip>
> So, are an overture and a prelude the
> same thing? If not, then how do they
> differ?
I'm sure many people will be happy to correct me if I'm wrong, but to the best
of my knowledge there is a difference.
It has to do with how they end.
An overture is a self-contained unit with a beginning and an end.
A prelude segues seemlessly into the beginning of the opera proper.
So if it ends with a big TA-DAAAA!!!!, it's probably an overture. If not, it's
probably a prelude. :)
Tom Moran
"I think this economy's coming along just fine, frankly.''
-- George W. Bush
on Meet the Press 2/8/04
Pat Finley
There are people here who have seen twenty times as many operas as I
who may correct me on this, but I believe that most of the familiar
"overtures" are played before the curtain rises, whereas most
"preludes" are played after the curtain rise, although avant-garde
productions may have eschewed this distinction. The term comes from
the French 'ouverture" (like the Haitian nationalist), which was
originally a self-standing piece of orchestral music -- rather like
the old Italian sinfonias, IIRC -- as indeed many of Mozart's and
Rossini's overtures are, when done in a concert hall instead of an
opera house.
Pat
David Melnick
Dear Pat,
Time was, all preludes, overtures, etc., with a very few
specific exceptions, were played before the curtain
rose.
Sincerely,
David
Lyle K. Neff
> I'm sure many people will be happy to correct me if I'm wrong, but to the best
> of my knowledge there is a difference.
> It has to do with how they end.
> An overture is a self-contained unit with a beginning and an end.
> A prelude segues seemlessly into the beginning of the opera proper.
> So if it ends with a big TA-DAAAA!!!!, it's probably an overture. If not, it's
> probably a prelude. :)
Isn't one of Gluck's overtures originally unclosed? "Alceste", perhaps
(I think Berlioz or Wagner wrote a concert ending). (Or did Gluck title
it "sinfonia"?) The overture to Rimsky-Korsakov's "The Tsar's Bride"
has a non-concert ending that modulates away from the tonic D to end on
F-sharp major as the dominant chord of the opening scene.
Another phenomenon, perhaps indistinguishable from the opera prelude, is
the opera introduction (in Russian, "Vstuplenie"). Many of these are
closed as well.
Some closed preludes and introductions (as labelled in the score) in
operas by Russian composers: Cui's "Le Flibustier" (which is on a
recent CD), "The Saracen", "Angelo," and "Ratcliff". Rimsky-Korsakov's
"Mlada", "Sadko". (The intro to Rimsky's "Christmas Eve" is tonally
closed, but in operatic performance of this there is a common tone held
into the first scene, and in the orchestral suite the music continues
also. If I recally correctly, the intro. to his "Snowmaiden" is
texturally closed in the orchestral suite, but in the opera has
voice-overs by the Wood-Sprite and continues with a common tone into
Spring-Beauty's opening monologue.)
--
Lyle K. Neff -- mailto:ln...@udel.edu
http://copland.udel.edu/~lneff
Mark D Lew
<slr...@aol.com> wrote:
> In operas, are there any differences between an overture and a prelude
> (that
> is, a prelude at the very beginning of an opera)? Or are they the same thing?
You're allowed to talk during an overture, but not during a prelude.
Or at least that's how it used to be, before the snobs took over. Now
you can't even laugh at the wrong time.
mdl
Valfer
between a prelude and an overture is one. From the earliest days of
the genre, composers realized the need for a piece of music to precede
the play, mostly to give the audience a moment to settle down and pay
attention. This music can be called a "sinfonia", "overture",
"prelude", etc. The form is usually free, and there are no
determining rules as to lenght, tonality, structure, etc. Some can be
played separatedly, and some segue into the work. Some establish a
mood, and some simply make noise to overpower a rowdy audience
(Rossini's idea). Puccini's tend to be brief - i.e. four chords in
Tosca. Sometimes less is more!
Valfer
slr...@aol.com (Slrdsyj) wrote in message news:<20040224053641...@mb-m04.aol.com>...
Robert Steinberg
> > A prelude segues seemlessly into the beginning of the opera proper. So
> > if it ends with a big TA-DAAAA!!!!, it's probably an overture. If not,
> > it's probably a prelude. :)
The opening to Cavalleria Rusticana is called Prelude (Preludio e
Siciliana). While not a big ending it has a gentle ta-daa or actually a
bump-bum making a clean ending.
Verdi uses Preludio for Aida and La Traviata but uses Introduzione for
Il Trovatore (the only 3 Verdi scores I have). All have a distinct
ending rather than the segue.
I've never encountered anything that makes the distinction in terms
although that doesn't mean that there isn't one.
--
Robert Steinberg
MidiOpera Co.
http://www.midiopera.com
GRNDPADAVE
I like Wagner's term: "Vorspiel."
Rossini thought so little of the relevance of curtain-raiser that he used the
same sinfonia for multiple operas.
The overture to The Barber of Seville was also previously used for the serious
operas Elisabetta in Inghilterra and Aureliano in Palmira.
The overture to Cenerentola was also used for La Gazzetta.
Beethoven, on the other hand, took *his* overtures seriously, writing no fewer
than four for Fidelio (three of them are called Leonora overtures). Leonora No.
3 is, imho, a better piece of music than the entire opera it was supposed to
precede.
Some musicologists try to distinguish between these terms, but invariably fail.
No matter how they are served up: overtures and preludesare nothing but
varieties of "vorspiel."
==G/P Dave
Aage Johansen
> Some dilemmas exist only in the realm of semantics. The difference
> between a prelude and an overture is one. From the earliest days of
> the genre, composers realized the need for a piece of music to precede
> the play, mostly to give the audience a moment to settle down and pay
> attention. This music can be called a "sinfonia", "overture",
> "prelude", etc. The form is usually free, and there are no
> determining rules as to lenght, tonality, structure, etc. Some can be
> played separatedly, and some segue into the work. Some establish a
> mood, and some simply make noise to overpower a rowdy audience
> (Rossini's idea). Puccini's tend to be brief - i.e. four chords in
> Tosca. Sometimes less is more!
Rossini's "ouverture" to the original "Mose in Egitto"/"Moise" consisted of
just three C major chords. This now introduces the second act.
--
Aage J.
stephenmead
"Slrdsyj" <slr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040224053641...@mb-m04.aol.com...
> In operas, are there any differences between an overture and a prelude
(that
> is, a prelude at the very beginning of an opera)? Or are they the same
thing?
It depends what period of musical history you are talking about.
The word "overture" from the French for "opening" was used by Lully for his
operas and consists of a slowish opening with strong dotted rhythms,
followed by a quicker fugal section, with the slower section repeated,
sometimes followed by a repeat of the quicker section.
All of Handel's Italian operas begin with French overtures, following
Lully's pattern.
Alessandro Scarlatti developed the Italian sinfonia (if you look at the
scores, Italian composers to the time of Verdi almost never use the word
"overture" for their Italian operas) which consists of an opening quick
section, a slower middle section and a third, quick, section. These kind of
sinfonias introduced Scarlatti's operas, and with the addition of a 3rd
movement in the form of a minuet, became the pattern of the Viennese
classical symphony.
We refer to Rossini "overtures" but he never used that term for his Italian
operas."Sinfonia" is what he calls them.
Verdi distinguishes between "preludio", a composition with only one tempo
marking, and "Sinfonia", a longer composition with tempo changes. Thus La
Traviata, both Acts One and Three, have a "preludio",as does Rigoletto, also
Ernani, Macbeth and others, as they are short pieces, in one mood and in one
tempo.
A "sinfonia" (or overture) in Verdi's work is a full-scale, longer
orchestral composition in a variety of moods and tempi. His most famous
"sinfonia" (or overtures) are Force of Destiny and Sicilian Vespers.
Verdi wrote a Prelude to Aida, ie a short composition in one tempo, for the
first performance in Cairo, but for the Italian premiere he composed a
Sinfonia or Overture in several different tempi and with longish development
of various themes. Then he decided he didn't like it and went back to the
prelude, which is always played today.
Somebody mentions the "Introduzione" to Trovatore, but that term refers not
to the few chords from the orchestra which call the audience to attention in
that opera, but to the whole opening scene.
I hope that helps a little..
Stephen
Alcindoro
The audience claps after an overture, usually. Of course, sometimes they clap
at the end of a prelude, but that's usually because the curtain has risen and
they think the sets are really neat.
Lehobe
conducted the Overture to " Ai"da" with the NBC Symphony Orchestra on 30 March,
1240. But, as we well know, for his broadcast performance of " Ai"da" in 1949,
he played the Prelude. Les
Dan
". Thus La
> Traviata, both Acts One and Three, have a "preludio",as does Rigoletto,
also
> Ernani, Macbeth and others, as they are short pieces, in one mood and in
one
> tempo.
I'm not sure your definition applies to Macbeth. The preludio contains
multiple themes from the opera such as the sleepwalking scene, the witches
brew music, etc, and is definitely not in one tempo.
Forza originally had a prelude which was pretty much the first third of the
overture we know today, with different orchestration and that definitely
does not have one theme, or tempo, etc.
Carmen is another example where the opening prelude is in two tempos and two
different themes. However, the other preludes in the opera (or are they
entr'actes? I know one is for sure - I guess it depends on the production)
do obey your definition.Queen of Spades also has a prelude I believe, and
that's also a sort of mini-overture.
For me, the difference lies mostly with timing, but I can see your
definition applying also. Overtures are generally is long-ish and developed
and can often stand on their own in performance.
Dan
jszostaksr
An 'Overture' is a piece of music by the composer played at the biginning of
the evening's work to set the mood of the work to be performed that
evening...with quotes from various parts throughout the score to show what's
in store.
A 'Prelude' is a very short bit of music which sets the mood for the act it
proceeds.
We also have such a thing as a musical 'entracte' which according to a
French site is defined as "interval (between act), interlude, entr'acte
(sens 2 notamment), intermission"...and which I choose to interpret as an
interval of music between scenes within an act already in progress in order
to change the mood of the audience...(e.g. the huge musical change of mood
played between the end of the 'Bridal Chamber' scene and the next scene with
the king and the knights in 'Lohengrin').
That's my humble opinion...which I think makes sense out of a 'non-issue'
question. Anything else is strictly accademic and/or subject to one's own
personal viewpoints on the subject.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Slrdsyj" <slr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040224053641...@mb-m04.aol.com...
myaskov...@yahoo.com
Wagner are all preludes, the prelude it is part of the opera. I hope it helps.
Martin
Juan I. Cahis
Tannhaeuser, a Prelude cannot, like Wagner’s Tristan und Isolde.
The problem with Rossini was that he was lazy, and he used the same
Overture for different Operas. An example is his Overture to the Barber of
Sevilla, which has the themes of the Opera he originally wrote to. (I don’t
remember its name now).
--
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