Behrens versus Tebaldi
PANPERSON
I see that I open up a can of worms here without really intending to. My
remark about Behrens versus Tebaldi had to do with ACTING. As to their
singing there is no way to compare them. They have different voices and
basically different repertoires. In reality - and don't yell at me - Behrens
doesn't act very well and Tebaldi couldn't act at all. But who cares!
When one discusses opera singers the operative word is SING. I remember going
to Caballe's American debut at the American Opera Society at Carnegie Hall.
When she came out on stage there were titters of laughter looking at this
immense woman in an outift that really belonged on my mother's wing back
chair. At the end of Come Bello there was seventeen minutes of wild
screaming. And if I remember the order correctly at the end of the first act
she had a contract with RCA and at the end of the second act she had a contract
with the Met. One must never confuse the singer with the singing. Unless
you are looking at Roberta Peters or Franco Corelli you have to use your
imagination to its fullest.
AT
RIGHT ON!!!!!!
Stregata wrote in message
<199805090038...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>PanPerson wrote:
>
>>But who cares!
>>When one discusses opera singers the operative word is SING.
>
>
>Stregata
>
>
Richard C. Wall
To compare Behrens to Tebaldi (in any respect) is like comparing champagne to 7-Up.
James Jorden
Musipro wrote:
>
> You will of course recall that Callas compared her own voice to champagne and
> Tebaldi's to "cognac....no, Coca-Cola." :-)
Actually, that's not quite accurate. The context makes it clear that
what Callas considered the biggest difference between them was her great
versatility as contrasted with Tebaldi's relatively narrow range of
roles. Callas actually is speaking truth, albeit in a very tactless
manner. Earlier in their careers the two sopranos each expressed
admiration for the other's art, and there is no reason to believe that
their opinions on that topic changed even when they were personally at
odds.
I'll be back to talk about the Behrens/Tebaldi conflict later.
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
latest opera gossip from parterre box:
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre/lacieca.htm
Michael Black
Salome45 wrote:
> >To compare Behrens to Tebaldi (in any respect) is like comparing champagne to
> >7-Up.
>
> Whatever you say, pal......
I have to agree with Richard. I don't know how anyone in their right mind can
compare Tebaldi to Behrens.
--
"Dolora Zajick Rules!!! Any questions?"
http://www.stairway.org/bjorling/
My Suggested Recordings
http://www.stairway.org/bjorling/suggest.htm
Stregata
Salome45
>To compare Behrens to Tebaldi (in any respect) is like comparing champagne to
>7-Up.
>
>
Whatever you say, pal......
Amanda
~too little temptation can lead to virtue~
Musipro
"Richard C. Wall" <rcw...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>To compare Behrens to Tebaldi (in any respect) is like comparing >champagne to
7-Up.
You will of course recall that Callas compared her own voice to champagne and
Enrique Eskenazi
In article <199805082132...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
panp...@aol.com (PANPERSON) wrote:
>In reality - and don't yell at me - Behrens
>doesn't act very well
I'm not going to yell, but simply disagree. The few times I had the
chance to see Behrens she was very involved dramatically, and her acting
was moving and thrilling. And there are some videos that confirm this,
as her Marie in Wozzek, by instance.
---
Enrique
eske...@mail.sendanet.es
Io chi sono? Eh, non lo so.
-Nol sapete?
Quasi no.
Ed Rosen
In <3553BCCF...@mindspring.com> "Richard C. Wall"
<rcw...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>To compare Behrens to Tebaldi (in any respect) is like comparing
champagne to 7-Up.
>
compare her to Renata Tebaldi? She said it's like comparing champagne
to Coca-cola!!
Ed
>> >
>> >
Ivrys88
James Jorden <jjo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Musipro wrote:
>>
>> You will of course recall that Callas compared her own voice to >champagne
and
>> Tebaldi's to "cognac....no, Coca-Cola." :-)
>
>>Actually, that's not quite accurate.
I have checked and rechecked the sources and the quotation is accurate. You are
correct in that what Callas was referring to was her greater vocal versatility.
To wit: "When my dear friend Renata Tebaldi will sing, among others, Norma or
Lucia one night, then La Traviata or Gioconda or Medea the next--then, and only
then, will we be rivals. Otherwise it it like comparing champagne with cognac.
No, champagne with Coca-Cola."
I leave it to you all to decide how true her words were.
Skip
Ditto!
Richard C. Wall wrote:
>
> To compare Behrens to Tebaldi (in any respect) is like comparing champagne to 7-Up.
>
> AT wrote:
> >
> > RIGHT ON!!!!!!
> > Stregata wrote in message
> > <199805090038...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Richard C. Wall
I purposely did not use the exact Callas quote "Champagne to Coca-Cola"
because I love both Callas and Tebaldi - and to use the exact quote would be
equating Behrens with one of those two women - and Behrens well, she can't
hold a candle to either.
Ed Rosen wrote:
>
> In <3553BCCF...@mindspring.com> "Richard C. Wall"
> <rcw...@mindspring.com> writes:
> >
> >To compare Behrens to Tebaldi (in any respect) is like comparing
> champagne to 7-Up.
> >
AT
this extravagance is only natural of the group!
Ed Boxer
>I purposely did not use the exact Callas quote "Champagne to Coca-Cola"
>because I love both Callas and Tebaldi - and to use the exact quote would be
>equating Behrens with one of those two women - and Behrens well, she can't
>hold a candle to either.
Callas - Champagne
Tebaldi - Coca-Cola
Behrens - Ripple
Ed "Boxer" Jones
Check out my home page: http://www.GeoCities.com/WestHollywood/9172
A Guide to Opera on CD; Boxing; my Lego creations; Drum and Bugle Corps; Key
West
Stregata
Richard Wall wrote:
>>To compare Behrens to Tebaldi (in any respect) is like comparing >champagne
>to
>7-Up.
Champagne meaning Tebaldi.
Stregata
Richard C. Wall
No:
Callas - Cristal
Tebaldi - Dom Perignon
Behrens - Boone's Farm
paolo
I must have missed the first post. Is Ms. Behrens suing Ms. Tebaldi?
Why are these two even being compared? They're as different as night and day ... and I
for one wouldn't wanna be without my recordings of either. Behrens' Salome, Elektra,
Fidelio, Senta, Barak's wife, etc. get as much play as my Tebaldi Tosca, Fanciulla,
Aida, etc. I can't imagine not wanting these recordings or having to *prefer* one over
the other.
paolo.
Musipro
paolo <ppad...@maine.rr.com> wrote:
>Why are these two even being compared? They're as different as night >and day
... and I
>for one wouldn't wanna be without my recordings of either. Behrens' >Salome,
Elektra,
>Fidelio, Senta, Barak's wife, etc. get as much play as my Tebaldi Tosca,
>Fanciulla,
>Aida, etc. I can't imagine not wanting these recordings or having to
>*prefer* one over
>the other.
Agreed--it's a totally irrelevant comparison, kind of like--Callas and Tebaldi
:-).
Salome45
>Why are these two even being compared? They're as different as night and day
>... and I
>for one wouldn't wanna be without my recordings of either.
That's what *I* said, Paolo!!!!!!
Like I said..it would be like apples and oranges to compare the two singers.
Lis K. Froding
In article <6j0j36$rtl$1...@diana.bcn.ibernet.es>,
"Enrique Eskenazi" <eske...@mail.sendanet.es> wrote:
>I'm not going to yell, but simply disagree. The few times I had the
>chance to see Behrens she was very involved dramatically, and her acting
>was moving and thrilling. And there are some videos that confirm this,
>as her Marie in Wozzek, by instance.
Agree that Behrens is a very good actress. I've seen her quite a few
times, in the Ring, Wozzeck, Salome, Elektra and Fidelio. Have never
seen Tebaldi, so can't make any comparisons to her.
Lis
Claud H. Shirley III
Lis K. Froding wrote:
>
> Agree that Behrens is a very good actress. I've seen her quite a few
> times, in the Ring, Wozzeck, Salome, Elektra and Fidelio. Have never
> seen Tebaldi, so can't make any comparisons to her.
Well, it's a very different experience. Behrens, IMO, is a wonderful
naturalistic actress, whose voice, mediocre to begin with, is trained
well enough to withstand the vigor of her protrayals. She provides (or
has, the present state of her voice being, apparently, unresolved) very
satisfying evenings in the theatre - she looks good on stage and draws
you right in to her narrative, and that perhaps is the word - narrative,
since most of her roles' great moments are not action moments, but
moments of commentary or persuasion.
Tebaldi is a voice long before you appreciate her acting - she had the
most refined and beautiful sound, IMO, of all sopranos, not excepting
Ponselle, who definitely had a superior technique, but who could not
achieve, again IMO, with her voice alone, the degree of feminine dignity
and womanly desperation that Tebaldi can/could. I'm sure it's been said
before, but to experience Tebaldi on any night live, was not just a
satisfying operatic experience - it was a turning moment in your life.
And if she were in good voice, then it was something beyond life.
Tebaldi was assuredly wonderful in narrative or contemplative moments -
I cannot myself find a more beautiful "Mi chiamo Mimi" than hers, for
instance, and most would admit that her Willow Song and Ave Maria are
with the finest - but at moments of action, of confrontation, of
decision, of hysteria, of desperation - the moments that make up Tosca,
Fanciulla, Desdemona, and almost every moment of what is for me her best
role, Gioconda - at such moments richly afforded by these roles, Tebaldi
leaves Behrens, and almost everyone, way behind. She did not do it
through naturalistic acting - she was always mannered in the high
Italian melodramatic style, that is to say, she struck poses. She did
it through vocal expression alone - and it was beauty that refused to be
compromised under extremity. Confronting Scarpia, or Gerard, or Jack
Rance, or that most detested villain Barnaba, her dignity, her courage,
the look in her eyes, and above all, that sound, even when it was
pinched to the limit, drew you right our of your seat and to her side.
If you were a man, you wanted to thrust yourself between her and all
that threatened her. If you were a woman, you wanted to coil her into
the security of your sisterly arms, and draw her away from all evil, and
from all that would dare to outrage her virtue, and her beauty.
She was also absolutely radiant and charming and funny in Falstaff, the
only comedy I saw her do.
I guess you just had to be there to know.
CHSIII
James Jorden
David wrote:
>
> You can't really believe that when Callas said "Comparing Tebaldi to me
> is like comparing champagne to cognac; no, it's like comparing
> champagne to coca cola" (or whatever the precise wording was) that she
> was expressing her respect for Tebaldi!!!!! If this isn't contempt, I
> don't know what is.
My feeling is that Callas was pissed at Tebaldi *personally* and so
lashed out. You can have contempt for a person and still respect her
art, after all.
David
Richard C. Wall wrote:
>
> To compare Behrens to Tebaldi (in any respect) is like comparing champagne to 7-Up.
Not that this is a very original remark. Who was it who opined that
comparing Tebaldi to herself was like comparing champagne to coca-cola?
-david gable
David
You can't really believe that when Callas said "Comparing Tebaldi to me
is like comparing champagne to cognac; no, it's like comparing
champagne to coca cola" (or whatever the precise wording was) that she
was expressing her respect for Tebaldi!!!!! If this isn't contempt, I
don't know what is.
-david gable
David
I'm in such a bad mood tonight that I don't care whom I offend.
Normally I keep my opinions on Tebaldi to myself in fear for my life.
Sure Tebaldi had a voice, but that's just about all she had. She also
had an immense likability that inspired blind loyalty in her fans.
That's just about it. She had an inadequate technique, which meant that
very quickly she had problems on top. She was by no means completely
tone deaf, but her ear was also never particularly razor sharp. (If you
can't tell that this is true, your ear is as mediocre as hers.) The
horrible out-of-tune high notes we increasingly got from her were only
the extreme case (e.g., the horribly flat high C at the end of O patria
mia in the Karajan recording). Her phrasing was supposed to have been
terrific. In fact it was basically shapeless. For phrasing she
substituted an unremitting and indiscriminately applied legato that she
applied to everything she sang, adding ribbons of poorly controlled
connective portamenti between the notes. Her rhythms were never
particularly precise. She lacked agility and a trill. Her expressivity
was generalized at best. There have been many singers with poorer
voices who were much better musicians. I never understood all the fuss.
-david gable
Richard C. Wall
"Opinions are like noses. Everyone has one, and they all smell."
David
Ed Boxer wrote:
> Callas - Champagne
> Tebaldi - Coca-Cola
> Behrens - Ripple
This reminds me of the famous bad review received by the Richard Strauss
ballet, Schlagobers (i.e., Whipped Cream): "If Richard, then Wagner, if
Strauss, then Johann, if Schlagobers, then Dehmel's [Viennese Pastry
Shop]."
-david gable
James Jorden
David wrote:
>
> I'm in such a bad mood tonight that I don't care whom I offend.
> Normally I keep my opinions on Tebaldi to myself in fear for my life.
I'm going to jump in here, though this sure sounds like a troll to me.
>
> Sure Tebaldi had a voice, but that's just about all she had. She also
> had an immense likability that inspired blind loyalty in her fans.
Well, no. Tebaldi also possessed a stage presence that was at the same
time magnetic and wonderfully warm. Even when she was not singing well,
she sang with all her heart, wanting to give the audience a great
experience, even when she was not capable of doing so.
> That's just about it. She had an inadequate technique, which meant that
> very quickly she had problems on top.
Very quickly? I don't know. The problems were not really bothersome
until around 1958 or so, when she had been singing for well over a
decade.
> She was by no means completely
> tone deaf, but her ear was also never particularly razor sharp. (If you
> can't tell that this is true, your ear is as mediocre as hers.)
You are spoiling for a fight, aren't you? Yes, it is true that
Tebaldi's intonation was suspect, especially toward the end.
> The
> horrible out-of-tune high notes we increasingly got from her were only
> the extreme case (e.g., the horribly flat high C at the end of O patria
> mia in the Karajan recording).
I think "horribly" is a subjective word. Let us keep in mind that the
note you refer to is extremely difficult; very few sopranos perform it
well. And we should also note that Tebaldi had the taste and
consideration to drop Aida from her repertoire when she could no longer
sing this note to her satisfaction.
> Her phrasing was supposed to have been
> terrific. In fact it was basically shapeless.
I might take your statement seriously if you offered concrete and
specific examples. As it stands, what you say is essentially
meaningless.
> For phrasing she
> substituted an unremitting and indiscriminately applied legato that she
> applied to everything she sang, adding ribbons of poorly controlled
> connective portamenti between the notes.
That is not correct. It is true that Tebaldi based her vocal approach
on legato singing, which is of course the basis of all bel canto and
therefore of all singing. Tebaldi also made the stylistic choice to use
much portamento, which in most of her repertoire is in fact authentic
practice at least as far back as we have recorded evidence. And the
soprano was certainly capable of marcato effects when called for by the
score.
> Her rhythms were never particularly precise.
And yet they never lacked for forward momentum, a far more important
quality. What you call lack of precision others call rubato.
> She lacked agility and a trill.
And in general avoided repertoire that called for technical abilities
she could not deliver. Even in singing TRAVIATA, which does call for
agility, she was firmly in the tradition of larger voices performing
this role.
> Her expressivity was generalized at best.
Perhaps, when compared to a Callas or a Schwarzkopf. But she always
sang on the words, with clear understanding of the intent. More to the
point, her expressivity was always sincere and heartfelt, not applied
from outside.
> There have been many singers with poorer voices who were much better > musicians.
We do not always make an emotional connection with a performer based
upon her musicianship. Sometimes other qualities (including beauty and
amplitude of voice) are more important.
> I never understood all the fuss.
That means that what Tebaldi had simply does not speak to you. That's
your loss.
Perhaps we could understand your opinions about Tebaldi if you gave us
examples of what you consider great singing, and an explanation of what
qualities you believe makes them great.
David
You are surely the first person in the world to believe the
champagne-cognac-coca-cola remark was aimed at Tebaldi personally and
not at Tebaldi the performer.
-david gable
David
Richard C. Wall wrote:
>
> "Opinions are like noses. Everyone has one, and they all smell."
This sure goes a long way toward answering my very specific criticisms
point by point.
dg
David
James Jorden wrote:
> [Tebaldi had vocal problems particularly in the upper register] Very
> quickly? I don't know. The problems
> were not really bothersome
> until around 1958 or so, when she had been singing for well over a
> decade.
Singers with more or less flawless techniques are rare indeed, yet they
do exist: Erna Berger, Jan Peerce, Jussi Bjoerling, Joan Sutherland
(although she's also a total bore), Frida Leider. Berger recorded Gilda
when she was nearly 60 and still sounded like a young girl. To have the
kind of vocal problems a mere ten years into your career that Tebaldi
did bespeaks technical problems. And she was having some trouble with
her top at least as early as the Traviata recording, and that's early.
(Then there was Callas, whom I nevertheless admire, who had a flawless
technique and yet tore up her voice by abusing it through the use of
so-called "chest tones." You can almost feel her vocal chords being
lacerated at the end of "Suicidio!" in the Cetra recording of Gioconda
as she sings the final "dentro l'avel," applying ever greater abusive
force to her vocal chords with each note and sounding like a baritone.
The sort of thing she does there is terrible for the voice.)
> You are spoiling for a fight, aren't you?
I'm afraid so, but you go on to concede the crucial point:
> Yes, it is true that
> Tebaldi's intonation was suspect, especially toward the end.
> Tebaldi had the taste and
> consideration to drop Aida from her repertoire when she could no longer
> sing this note to her satisfaction.
In other words, she DID sing it to her satisfaction in the Karajan
recording?!?!?!?!? Karajan or Tebaldi should have suppressed the take
of the final bars of "O patria mia" that was released.
> I might take your statement seriously if you offered concrete and
> specific examples.
I do have something very specific in mind. One of these days I'll bring
in a few scores and describe measure by measure exactly what I mean.
> It is true that Tebaldi based her vocal approach
> on legato singing, which is of course the basis of all bel canto and
> therefore of all singing.
At best, legato produces a kind of sleight of hand whereby you are able
to have your cake and eat it, too. That is, you get a very smooth
connection from note to note without quite being aware that the singer
has had to slide from one pitch to the next to induce the effect of
smoothness. Tebaldi's ribbons of portamento are disconcerting and
shapeless distractions to my ears.
> And the
> soprano was certainly capable of marcato effects when called for by the
> score.
I don't necessarily deny this, but I'm not obliged to cite every
exception when speaking in generalities.
I wrote:
> > Her rhythms were never particularly precise.
And you responded:
> And yet they never lacked for forward momentum, a far more important
> quality.
Forward momentum is not exactly the way *I* would characterize the
rhythmic aspect of the typical Tebaldi performance! Also, precision and
forward momentum cannot be separated out as easily as you suggest.
> What you call lack of precision others call rubato.
Not so! The surface rhythmic structure can remain very precise indeed,
even when subjected to rubato, to which I am by no means oppposed. I am
certainly not a literalist demanding precise fidelity to the printed
score. The subtleties of rubato one finds in a performance by Los
Angeles, Callas, or Ricciarelli (yes, Ricciarelli: listen to the final
movement in the live Maria di Rudenz on Cetra) are nowhere to be found
in Tebaldi's performances. And, of course, Callas, Los Angeles, and
Ricciarelli all had better ears than Tebaldi's.
I wrote:
> > Her expressivity was generalized at best.
And you all but conceded the point:
> Perhaps, when compared to a Callas or a Schwarzkopf. But she always
> sang on the words, with clear understanding of the intent. More to the
> point, her expressivity was always sincere and heartfelt, not applied
> from outside.
As Stravinsky once said, "Sincerity is the sine qua non that guarantees
nothing." (By the way, while Schwarzkopf was very musical, I find her
performances precious, affected, and mannered, by and large. I'll take
Tebaldi's comparative lack of pretension any day.)
> We do not always make an emotional connection with a performer based
> upon her musicianship. Sometimes other qualities (including beauty and
> amplitude of voice) are more important.
Not to me! I certainly have no objection to beauty and amplitude of
voice, but they are not of paramount importance to me. (The, too, one
does want a voice of the right size and weight for a role. Margaret
Price may be a musical singer: she does not have the right weight for
Isolde.) Musicianship and expressive conviction are paramount for me.
Tebaldi had some of the requisite conviction. But she was never really
the great musician Los Angeles was, never the singing actress Scotto
was.
I wrote:
> > I never understood all the fuss.
And you responded:
> That means that what Tebaldi had simply does not speak to you. That's
> your loss.
It's not a loss if I can listen to somebody better.
> Perhaps we could understand your opinions about Tebaldi if you gave us
> examples of what you consider great singing, and an explanation of what
> qualities you believe makes them great.
I should think the list of deficiencies I enumerated would explain my
low opinion of Tebaldi. But I'll take a quick stab at your request.
It's 1:30 AM, so for the moment I will have to content myself with
reeling off a few names of singers I greatly admire (a few of them
deliberately contentious, but I'm dead serious nonetheless):
Los Angeles, Gu"den, Della Casa, Callas, Scotto, Herva Nelli, Bjoerling,
Peerce, Gedda, the very young Di Stefano on his best behavior, Ludwig,
Barbieri, Simionato, Berganza, Josephine Veasey (the Callas of
Berliozians), Fassba"nder, Siepi, Tozzi, Schorr, Anja Silja, Ponselle,
Frida Leider, Crespin, Nilsson, Kipnis, Ricciarelli (after the early
bland period and before the vocal decline), Werner Krenn, Bergonzi,
Janet Baker, Alain Vanzo, Georges Thill, Helge Roswa"nge, Tibbett,
Pinza, Rethberg, Traubel, De Luca, Warren, Gobbi, Valdengo, Vinay, etc.
-david gable
GRNDPADAVE
>Subject: Re: Behrens versus Tebaldi
>From: David <dga...@midway.uchicago.edu>
>Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 01:33 EDT
>Message-id: <35568D...@midway.uchicago.edu>
>
>Richard C. Wall wrote:
>>
>> To compare Behrens to Tebaldi (in any respect) is like comparing champagne
>to 7-Up.
>
>
>Not that this is a very original remark. Who was it who opined that
>comparing Tebaldi to herself was like comparing champagne to coca-cola?
>
>-david gable
Anyone notice that Coke is selling at 40+ times earnings on the NYSE.
-
On a hot summer's day nothing refreshes like an ice cold (diet) coke.
-
And I'd rather have a Nathan's hot dog any day than cold caviar.
-
Viva Maria !!
==G/P Dave
Salome45
>There have been many singers with poorer
those are *MY* feelings about Te Kanawa.
James Jorden
Nonsense. Anyone who stops and considers Callas's psycholgical
insecurity will understand that the remark was in fact "about" neither
Tebaldi the artist nor Tebaldi the person. It's about Callas: she felt
threatened by the constant comparisons and she lashed out in anger and
fear. If in fact she did hold Tebaldi in such low regard as an artist,
as someone who could not possibly be a threat to her position as Prima
Donna Assoluta del Mondo, why would she ever need to go on the attack?
James Jorden
David wrote:
> Singers with more or less flawless techniques are rare indeed, yet they
> do exist: Erna Berger, Jan Peerce, Jussi Bjoerling, Joan Sutherland
> (although she's also a total bore), Frida Leider. Berger recorded Gilda
> when she was nearly 60 and still sounded like a young girl.
These are exception, and I have conceded that Tebaldi had an imperfect
technique. More to the point, she never seems to have found a way to
sing while distancing herself emotionally from the content of the music.
That is both her blessing and her curse. I might also point out that
Frida Leider continued to sing long after her top was gone, substituting
swoops for Isolde's high B's, for example. The other singers you name
all leave me utterly cold emotionally. It's not so hard to sing
immaculately if you sing with your head instead of your heart.
> And she was having some trouble with
> her top at least as early as the Traviata recording, and that's early.
> (Then there was Callas, whom I nevertheless admire, who had a flawless
> technique and yet tore up her voice by abusing it through the use of
> so-called "chest tones."
Wrong. Overuse of chest is only one of several types of vocal abuse
Callas indulged in, really a subset of her oversinging in general. She
also grossly overused her top extension (that is, high B on up) and sang
far too often. Also we should factor in her unusually severe problems
with physical and emotional health.
> You can almost feel her vocal chords being
> lacerated at the end of "Suicidio!" in the Cetra recording of Gioconda
> as she sings the final "dentro l'avel," applying ever greater abusive
> force to her vocal chords with each note and sounding like a baritone.
> The sort of thing she does there is terrible for the voice.)
I do not hear this: I hear open-throated, relaxed singing in the chest
register which is a perfectly natural part of a voice that is by nature
a mezzo-soprano.
> > Tebaldi had the taste and
> > consideration to drop Aida from her repertoire when she could no longer
> > sing this note to her satisfaction.
>
> In other words, she DID sing it to her satisfaction in the Karajan
> recording?!?!?!?!? Karajan or Tebaldi should have suppressed the take
> of the final bars of "O patria mia" that was released.
You understand that Decca's engineers created that recording by mixing
directly down to two tracks "live" during the takes and that the
production was budgeted for only a limited amount of studio time. We
are also talking about one note in an entire role. Should the conductor
or the soprano have prevented release of an entire recording for one
note? Tebaldi did not have that choice available to her. She did have
the option of not accepting engagements as Aida, which she exercised.
> I do have something very specific in mind. One of these days I'll bring
> in a few scores and describe measure by measure exactly what I mean.
We'll be here and listening.
>
> > It is true that Tebaldi based her vocal approach
> > on legato singing, which is of course the basis of all bel canto and
> > therefore of all singing.
>
> At best, legato produces a kind of sleight of hand whereby you are able
> to have your cake and eat it, too. That is, you get a very smooth
> connection from note to note without quite being aware that the singer
> has had to slide from one pitch to the next to induce the effect of
> smoothness.
No, there you are talking about portamento. All "connected" singing is
by definition legato.
> Tebaldi's ribbons of portamento are disconcerting and
> shapeless distractions to my ears.
Then you have no ear for accurate style in late-romantic Italian music.
> Forward momentum is not exactly the way *I* would characterize the
> rhythmic aspect of the typical Tebaldi performance! Also, precision and
> forward momentum cannot be separated out as easily as you suggest.
I still submit that Tebaldi's singing (especially in roles she sang on
stage) rarely lacked for energetic forward motion, even in the slowest
passages. You still have not offered any concrete examples of the
"shapeless" phrasing you so abhor.
> Not so! The surface rhythmic structure can remain very precise indeed,
> even when subjected to rubato, to which I am by no means oppposed. I am
> certainly not a literalist demanding precise fidelity to the printed
> score. The subtleties of rubato one finds in a performance by Los
> Angeles, Callas, or Ricciarelli (yes, Ricciarelli: listen to the final
> movement in the live Maria di Rudenz on Cetra) are nowhere to be found
> in Tebaldi's performances. And, of course, Callas, Los Angeles, and
> Ricciarelli all had better ears than Tebaldi's.
I have no idea what you mean by "better ears." If you are referring to
intonation, then the three artists you name are lousy examples indeed.
> > > Her expressivity was generalized at best.
>
> And you all but conceded the point:
>
> > Perhaps, when compared to a Callas or a Schwarzkopf.
No. We are comparing apples and oranges here, sensibilities that are
respectively intutitive (Tebaldi) and intellectual (Callas, Schwarzkopf)
in nature. It was Callas' genius that she could prepare her music with
intellectual rigor and then allow her intuition to guide her smaller
interpretive choices. But she was Callas. It is nonsense to expect a
singer to think like another singer just because you wish it so.
Tebaldi found her own connection to expressivity through a perhaps
excessive emotional identification with the dramatic situation: that
connection led to some sloppy singing and in fact, to some vocal damage
in the long run. One might just as easily say the same thing about
Crespin or Welitsch or Sills or Jones or Steber or any number of other
great singers.
> As Stravinsky once said, "Sincerity is the sine qua non that guarantees
> nothing."
Anyone who approached art with the expectation of guarantees is doomed
to disappointment. How very like Stravinsky, with his utter distrust of
interpreters, to make so snippy and defensive a comment.
> Not to me! I certainly have no objection to beauty and amplitude of
> voice, but they are not of paramount importance to me. (The, too, one
> does want a voice of the right size and weight for a role. Margaret
> Price may be a musical singer: she does not have the right weight for
> Isolde.) Musicianship and expressive conviction are paramount for me.
> Tebaldi had some of the requisite conviction. But she was never really
> the great musician Los Angeles was, never the singing actress Scotto
> was.
Again, these are not reasonable comparisons. Los Angeles was a very
limited operatic performer, and Scotto, for all I adore her, was
overparted in virtually all her great roles.
> It's not a loss if I can listen to somebody better.
"Better" is the vaguest, most loaded word you have chosen yet.
> Los Angeles, Gu"den, Della Casa, Callas, Scotto, Herva Nelli, Bjoerling,
> Peerce, Gedda, the very young Di Stefano on his best behavior, Ludwig,
> Barbieri, Simionato, Berganza, Josephine Veasey (the Callas of
> Berliozians), Fassba"nder, Siepi, Tozzi, Schorr, Anja Silja, Ponselle,
> Frida Leider, Crespin, Nilsson, Kipnis, Ricciarelli (after the early
> bland period and before the vocal decline), Werner Krenn, Bergonzi,
> Janet Baker, Alain Vanzo, Georges Thill, Helge Roswa"nge, Tibbett,
> Pinza, Rethberg, Traubel, De Luca, Warren, Gobbi, Valdengo, Vinay, etc.
Can I just stop and tell you how impressed I am? Every one of those
singers exhibits at least one or two of the flaws you ascribe to
Tebaldi, and most of them have other, more damaging problems as well.
It is most obvious that you are judging all these performers by
recordings, which is the most severe fallacy of all: opera is not an
art that is performed in a studio to a microphone.
Ed Rosen
Re the high C in the Patria mia in the Karajan Aida recording, it was
reported at the time that Tebaldi was not feeling well on the day it
was recorded, and asked to do it again on another day.
She was told this would happen, but Karajan nixed it due to some
conflict with his schedule, so the C stood as it was. There was some
degree of animosity between Tebaldi and Karajan over this.
Sure Tebaldi had flaws. Practically every great singer does. But taken
at her formidible best, she was the greatest soprano voice of this
century, along with Ponselle. The middle voice retained its creamy,
gorgeous until the 1970's. Yes, the top became strident, but it
mattered little for those of us that saw her and loved her. Her
performances were so imbued with passion and gorgeous singing, that one
or two strained high naughts really didn't matter.
I always thought her use of portamento to be one of the most wonderful
effects in her singing. The same can be said of a great tenor like
Carlo Bergonzi.
She was always 100% musically prepared, and always looked lovely on
stage. Her voice was as big as any I ever heard, as well as being
beautiful.
Say what you want- when the history of 20th century opera is written,
Renata Tebaldi will have a place of honor right at the top of the list.
Best,
Ed
Ed Rosen<e...@legatoclassics.com>
Legato Classics, Inc.
http://www.legatoclassics.com
donpaolo
GPD -
As a former New Yorker/Brooklynite, I'll sure go along with ya on the
Nathan's--drooling!
DonP.
GRNDPADAVE <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199805110925...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: Behrens versus Tebaldi
> >From: David <dga...@midway.uchicago.edu>
gable
> ====
donpaolo
I second everything you said, Ed. A great assessment of a wonderful person
& artist.
What fabulous evenings we enjoyed when she was paired with Corelli in
Chenier, Tosca, Fanciulla, Adriana, Boheme, Gioconda. They had the
audience in the palms of their hands. Possibly the greatest twosome in
operatic history - Italian, that is.
Regards,
DonPaolo
Ed Rosen <lyr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<6j6v12$a...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>...
Richard C. Wall
Callas could also "turn a phrase" with the best of them. I'll bet you Elsa
Maxwell had something to do with this remark as well!
James Jorden wrote:
>
> David wrote:
> >
> > You are surely the first person in the world to believe the
> > champagne-cognac-coca-cola remark was aimed at Tebaldi personally and
> > not at Tebaldi the performer.
>
> Nonsense. Anyone who stops and considers Callas's psycholgical
> insecurity will understand that the remark was in fact "about" neither
> Tebaldi the artist nor Tebaldi the person. It's about Callas: she felt
> threatened by the constant comparisons and she lashed out in anger and
> fear. If in fact she did hold Tebaldi in such low regard as an artist,
> as someone who could not possibly be a threat to her position as Prima
> Donna Assoluta del Mondo, why would she ever need to go on the attack?
>
Richard C. Wall
Ditto, a thousand times.
dtritter
I'll second the Rosen post on all counts. What mystifies me is that
there could possibly be a discussion that equates a singer of modest
gifts who filled a vacuum in heavy German repertoire by the force of her
stageworthiness, rather than any memorable vocalism, with one of the
genuinely great sounds heard on the operatic stage in the 20th century.
Next to Ponselle? I don't know if I agree, but it's a not improbable
comparison. Behrens? Undoubtedly one of the greatest law-degree-holding
Brunnhildes of all time. It's a good thing for her that Leider,
Flagstad, Traubel and Nilsson never went to law school.
dft
Joe Caporiccio
James Jorden wrote:
>
> David wrote:
> >
> > You are surely the first person in the world to believe the
> > champagne-cognac-coca-cola remark was aimed at Tebaldi personally and
> > not at Tebaldi the performer.
>
> Nonsense. Anyone who stops and considers Callas's psycholgical
> insecurity will understand that the remark was in fact "about" neither
> Tebaldi the artist nor Tebaldi the person. It's about Callas: she felt
> threatened by the constant comparisons and she lashed out in anger and
> fear. If in fact she did hold Tebaldi in such low regard as an artist,
> as someone who could not possibly be a threat to her position as Prima
> Donna Assoluta del Mondo, why would she ever need to go on the attack?
>
> --
> james jorden
> jjo...@ix.netcom.com
> latest opera gossip from parterre box:
> http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre/lacieca.htm
You are right - Callas was NOT being paranoid when she attacked Tebaldi.
She was right: Tebaldi was a threat. I love both Callas and Tebaldi and
at the time, Tebaldi suffered by comparison (not as wide a repertoire
asCallas, not as subtle interpretation, etc). However, to put things
into perspective, if Tebaldi came on the scene today, she would wipe
everyone else off!! Goodbye to the bland Te kanawas, Studers, Voights,
Sweets, etc.
JJ
In the first place, David Gable is no troll (though his opinions can be
provocative), nor is he new here (I've been reading this group for almost
2 years, and he's been posting as long as I can remember). Instead, he
is, by far, one of the most intelligent posters around here, and I look
forward to all his posts, so many of which are incredibly detailed and
fascinating. That said, I must part company with Mr. Gable in regards to
Tebaldi. If all he said were true, her performances would bore anyone,
myself included. But I can't reconcile Mr. Gable's depiction of her
singing with the vivid, committed performances I hear on so many
recordings. Yes, Tebaldi had problems with high notes and, sometimes,
with intonation (though not nearly as bad as you make it). Yes, she did
not have a trill, and her expression could be generalized. But these are
some of the problems which affect many singers, including those you admire
(Bjoerling, Della Casa, Los Angeles, Nilsson, Di Stefano, to name a few
you list). I also disagree that Tebaldi had an inadequate technique --
the high notes were difficult by the end of the 1950s to be sure, but even
through the 60s, after singing some of the heaviest roles in opera, the
voice was still large, tonally plush, and did not wobble. That, to me, is
proof of the security of her technique. Concerning her legato, yes she
applied it often, but I never felt the vocal line was never drowned in it,
creating a muddy, static effect. I agree with Mr. Jorden about the
forward momentum of a Tebaldi performance -- I could never characterize
her singing as inert or static the way I could a performance by, say,
Caballe or Ricciarelli at their weakest. On the contrary, I always get
the sense that the vocal line is moving. On the whole, I think, her
performances were rarely boring -- find one of her live Toscas, for
example, and listen to how wildly dramatic she could be. When I listen to
Tebaldi's singing, I may not say "how interesting" or "how subtle", but it
does sound "right" -- honest, committed, authentic, gorgously vocalized,
and perfectly suited to the repertoire she sang.
Jon
Ed Rosen
In <35570D...@earthlink.net> Joe Caporiccio <joe...@earthlink.net>
writes:
I don't think Tebaldi suffered at all. How many roles did Callas sing
on stage between 1950 & 1960? I have no books to check, but I don't
think it was many more than Tebaldi.
Tebaldi sang, among others, Fernando Cortez, La Wally, L'assedio di
Corinto, Nozze di Figaro, L'amico Fritz, Lohengrin, Tannhauser, Eugene
Onegin, Cecelia, Giovanna d'arco. There are more rarities, but these
come to mind right away. And these were in addition to all the Boheme,
Tosca, Aida, Forza, Traviata, Otello, Butterfly, Boccanegra,
Mefistofeles, Chenier, Manon Lescaut, etc.
True, some of these roles Tebaldi only did a few times in one or two
runs, but the same can be said of Callas. How many times did she sing
Armida? She sang Don CArlo in the 50's, but only about 5 times, at La
Scala. And so forth.
Yes- Callas did a wider variety of roles, since she attempted the
coloratura repertoire that Tebaldi couldn't. But Tebaldi sang almost
as many, if not indeed as many roles as Callas in the decade from
1950-1960. And she sang far more frequently than Callas for most of
the decade- especially the latter half.
They were both great in very different ways. But for voice, and that
is what opera is really all about, Tebaldi reigned supreme.
Best,
Ed
GregF NC
>In the first place, David Gable is no troll (though his opinions can be
>provocative), nor is he new here (I've been reading this group for almost
>2 years, and he's been posting as long as I can remember). Instead, he
>is, by far, one of the most intelligent posters around here, and I look
>forward to all his posts, so many of which are incredibly detailed and
>fascinating.
I totally agree with Jon here. While I don't want to put words in David's
mouth, perhaps he was trying to refute the extreme adulation that Tebaldi was
getting in this newsgroup.
Personally, I find it difficult to handle when someone starts getting carried
away with their superlatives for a lot of these singers. I generally ignore
these posters, believing them entitled to their own opinions. But sometimes it
would be nice to apply a needle and break their baloons. (I suppose especially
if I were in a bad mood.)
Greg F(in North Carolina)
Richard C. Wall
Ditto.
Richard C. Wall
Ditto, a thousand dittos!
Ian Knight
On Sat, 9 May 1998, paolo wrote:
> I must have missed the first post. Is Ms. Behrens suing Ms. Tebaldi?
>
> Why are these two even being compared? They're as different as night and day ... and I
> for one wouldn't wanna be without my recordings of either. Behrens' Salome, Elektra,
> Fidelio, Senta, Barak's wife, etc. get as much play as my Tebaldi Tosca, Fanciulla,
> Aida, etc. I can't imagine not wanting these recordings or having to *prefer* one over
> the other.
>
> paolo.
>
I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Paolo on this. What's the point?
--I.K.>
>
Al
>I don't think Tebaldi suffered at all. How many roles did Callas sing
>on stage between 1950 & 1960? I have no books to check, but I don't
>think it was many more than Tebaldi.
>
>Tebaldi sang, among others, Fernando Cortez, La Wally, L'assedio di
>Corinto, Nozze di Figaro, L'amico Fritz, Lohengrin, Tannhauser, Eugene
>Onegin, Cecelia, Giovanna d'arco. There are more rarities, but these
>come to mind right away. And these were in addition to all the Boheme,
>Tosca, Aida, Forza, Traviata, Otello, Butterfly, Boccanegra,
>Mefistofeles, Chenier, Manon Lescaut, etc.
>
>True, some of these roles Tebaldi only did a few times in one or two
>runs, but the same can be said of Callas. How many times did she sing
>Armida? She sang Don CArlo in the 50's, but only about 5 times, at La
>Scala. And so forth.
>
>Yes- Callas did a wider variety of roles, since she attempted the
>coloratura repertoire that Tebaldi couldn't. But Tebaldi sang almost
>as many, if not indeed as many roles as Callas in the decade from
>1950-1960. And she sang far more frequently than Callas for most of
>the decade- especially the latter half.
>
>They were both great in very different ways. But for voice, and that
>is what opera is really all about, Tebaldi reigned supreme.
>
>
>Best,
>Ed
"in eighteen years between Callas's Italian debut at Verona as Gioconda in
1947 and her last Covent Garden Tosca in 1965, she appeared in 37 roles 525
times; at most recent count, for details of her early seasons are still
incomplete"- Michael Scott, Maria Meneghini Callas.
AC
Simon Roberts
Enrique Eskenazi
In article <3556C9...@midway.uchicago.edu>, David
<dga...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>And, of course, Callas, Los Angeles, and
>Ricciarelli all had better ears than Tebaldi's.
>
But Ricciarelli sang so often "calato"! I think it's really provoking to
consider Ricciarelli a greater singer than Tebaldi. And De los Angeles
(a soprano I deeply admire and enjoy) had troubles with high notes.
Wasn't *that* one of the criticism adressed to Tebaldi?
---
Enrique
eske...@mail.sendanet.es
Io chi sono? Eh, non lo so.
-Nol sapete?
Quasi no.
Skip
I agree here, if these great singers were around today,
Tabaldi/Callas the singers listed below would not even be singing
in the chorus.
paolo
There is more to Behrens than just "stageworthiness rather than any memorable
vocalism." When Behrens came onto the scene she did in fact have (to some of
us anyway) a beautiful voice. Her first Salome was (and remains) exquisite -
one of my very favorite performances. We humans are so prone to "compare"
everything, instead of looking at each individual "thing" and trying to find
it's particular merits. We do this with new things too. I cannot recall the
number of times I've heard a new work in a symphony hall and heard "well, it
sure isn't Beethoven" or some such similar comment. We're too lazy in that
regard, in that often anything that requires us to think often puts us off.
We often hear a singer, and immediately we're comparing him/her to someone
else. I try to make my criterion - are they getting the notes right? Did
they move me with their performance? Not everyone has "a beautiful voice" ...
and yet, in a way everyone does. Too many intelligent conductors, producers,
etc. have been excited by what Ms. Behrens has done and still does to dismiss
her as "no Tebaldi." Our tastes are all somewhat subjective, and that makes
for a great diversity in what we hear. As I've stated before I've a good
number of recordings of both of these ladies and I wouldn't want to be without
one.
paolo.
james_...@smtplink.mssm.edu
GregF NC wrote:
> Personally, I find it difficult to handle when someone starts getting
> carried away with their superlatives for a lot of these singers. I
> generally ignore these posters, believing them entitled to their own
> opinions. But sometimes it would be nice to apply a needle and break their
> balloons. (I suppose especially if I were in a bad mood.)
The part about the bad mood I have to disagree with: when you're feeling
lousy, you're in no position for either analysis or debate, and, frankly,
you're likely to take everything personally -- even bad intonation begins to
feel like a personal slight.
Now, since we're on the topic of "getting carried away with superlatives,"
(and since I am in a perfectly lovely mood this morning), may I apply my
needle and puncture a balloon who has become *particularly* overinflated of
late? What the hell is the deal with Renee Fleming? When was the last time
she sang in tune, about 1993 or so? Hell, when was the last time she SANG
instead of crooning and breathing heavily? And if I have to hear just ONE
MORE TIME how OVERWORKED she is...
Now, let's hear from the fan club: Renee's Enablers to the rescue!
jj
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
donpaolo
Skip <w...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<3557D8E3...@mindspring.com>...
> I agree here, if these great singers were around today,
> Tabaldi/Callas the singers listed below would not even be singing
> in the chorus.
Yessir! And, we can add many, many, more who, if not limited to the
chorus, would be comprimari, at best - Sylvester, Margison, and others of
the tenor ilk who are the current "darlings" of the opera world.
Great observation. Let the flames begin!
DonPaolo
Richard C. Wall
Renee who?
I rest my case.
Richard
Claud H. Shirley III
I don't care to be classified as belonging to anyone's fan club, but I
have never heard Ms. Fleming sing poorly, and I consider her performance
of Manon at the Opera Bastille last year to be accomplished in every
way. There is no out of tune singing, there is no breathiness, there is
no restriction at the top, her coloratura is accurate, her French is
clear and idiomatic, and her ability to expand from the lyricism of the
earlier acts to the heaviness of the last two is impressive. Her Thais
in Washington in 1991, I think, shows similar gifts, although not as
developed. Also, her Susanna for Chicago, IMO, is the best since Phyllis
Curtin. Her timbre exhibits degrees of shade, nuance, and color, unlike
other excellent but monochromatic sopranos of the current scene -
Guleghina, Sweet, Voigt. I hear, and see nothing in her consummate
artistry to complain about. But you go right ahead.
Skip
The real sad thing today is, If Rosa Ponselle stood on the stage
today and sung, most would not know what they were listening to.
The decline in singing over the past 20 years has been
unforgivable (lack of a better word)
GregF NC
>The real sad thing today is, If Rosa Ponselle stood on the stage
>today and sung, most would not know what they were listening to.
>The decline in singing over the past 20 years has been
>unforgivable (lack of a better word)
>
You're probably right - certainly as far as I'm concerned. I've been reading
the Drake biography and re-listening to her recordings.
It is very surprising that a soprano who has been so universally acclaimed did
not have a better top. I'm asking myself, "how can this be?"
Greg F(in North Carolina)
Ivrys88
James Jorden wrote:
>Scotto, for all I adore her, was overparted in virtually all her great >roles.
Including even Norma? :-) I'm filing this comment away and saving it, Mr.
Jorden...
Jkstagesf
> It is very surprising that a soprano who has been so universally acclaimed
did
> not have a better top. I'm asking myself, "how can this be?"
What I don't understand is why having a short top is considered a flaw in a
soprano. Not just certain types of sopranos, but all sopranos.
I get the impression that nearly all lirico spinto sopranos---Ponselle,
Tebaldi, etc.---have a short top. Most dramatic sopranos---Rysanek, Borkh,
Stratas, etc.---have a short top, too. It seems that, in general, the voices
most suited to sing the heavier Italian and German roles are short on top. If
that's the case, then having a short top is not a flaw, it's merely a
characteristic.
I can understand criticizing a lyric or coloratura soprano for having a short
top. Coloraturas especially are supposed to be able to sing high and with
agility. But criticizing a lirico spinto or a dramatic soprano for having a
short top seems a bit screwy to me.
For example, I can understand someone criticizing Ponselle for singing Violetta
because her voice was too heavy for the role, but I can't understand someone
saying Ponselle had a bad voice because she sang a role she wasn't perfectly
suited for. I also don't think you can say Tebaldi had a bad top or was a lousy
singer because she barely missed a high C on an "Aida" recording once.
I think the confusion about what critical standards to apply to which kind of
soprano singing which kind of role is related to the fact that most people
become acquainted with opera these days via recordings, and on recordings, a
lot of coloratura and lyric sopranos sing roles originally written for lirico
spintos and dramatics. Yes, Anna Moffo hit very high notes, but she probably
shouldn't have sang Cio-Cio-San, a lirico spinto role, in the studio. As my
former voice teacher would say, "There's no garlic." But people listen to her
recording and criticize Tebaldi, a lirico spinto, for not have Moffo's---a
coloratura's---agility and notes. I think that's really screwy.
Is my line of reasoning totally off-base?
Jeffery Kennedy
San Francisco
jkst...@aol.com
James Jorden
Including especially Norma. That Scotto could deliver a performance of
emotional, dramatic and musical truth and beauty despite so great a
handicap is a testimonial to her magnificent gifts as an artist.
--
David
> I wrote:
> > You are surely the first person in the world to believe the
> > champagne-cognac-coca-cola remark was aimed at Tebaldi personally and
> > not at Tebaldi the performer.
James responded:
> Nonsense. Anyone who stops and considers Callas's psycholgical
> insecurity will understand that the remark was in fact "about" neither
> Tebaldi the artist nor Tebaldi the person. It's about Callas: she > felt
> threatened by the constant comparisons and she lashed out in anger and
> fear.
You're offering a psychological explanation for WHY Callas lashed out at
Tebaldi. You may or may not be right about this. Nevertheless, when
Callas lashed out at Tebaldi, her remark was aimed at Tebaldi the
performing artist, not Tebaldi the human being. At best you have
explained WHY Callas lashed out at Tebaldi the performing artist.
-david gable
David
Ed Rosen wrote:
> when the history of 20th century opera is written,
> Renata Tebaldi will have a place of honor right at the top of the list.
Well, she certainly won't be near the top of mine, and she was certainly
no Ponselle.
-david gable
james_...@smtplink.mssm.edu
dga...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
> You're offering a psychological explanation for WHY Callas lashed out at
> Tebaldi. You may or may not be right about this. Nevertheless, when
> Callas lashed out at Tebaldi, her remark was aimed at Tebaldi the
> performing artist, not Tebaldi the human being. At best you have
> explained WHY Callas lashed out at Tebaldi the performing artist.
You are splitting hairs. Callas's outburst was, in my opinion, an irrational
expression of her feelings of insecurity. As such, it was not "aimed" at
Tebaldi at all. When I have had a hard day at work and I snap at a cab
driver, my remark really has no relevance either to his driving or to him
personally.
Now, Callas's remark was INTERPRETED as a slam at Tebaldi's abilities as a
performing artist, but that is of course a completely different matter.
Interpretation reveals far more about the interpreter than it does the source.
Anyway, under no circumstances should this off-the-cuff remark be taken as
serious music criticism. Remember the context of this statement was a
question asking whether Tebaldi and Callas could be considered "rivals." Such
a discussion has very little to do with art and everything to do with personal
pride.
Peter Scotto
David <dga...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Ed Rosen wrote:
>
>> when the history of 20th century opera is written,
>> Renata Tebaldi will have a place of honor right at the top of the list.
"20th century opera", unless we include Puccini's essentially late 19th
century operas, is not a phrase I associate with the wonderful voice of
Miss T.
>Well, she certainly won't be near the top of mine, and she was certainly
>no Ponselle.
Nor a Destinn, Fremstad, Muzio, Rethberg, Seinemeyer, Turner, Lehmann,
Arangi-Lombardi, Leider, Flagstad or Traubel neither. " Among the greatest
postwar sopranos", certainly.
As for Miss Behrens, in the Italian repertory she carries forward the best
Nanny Larsen-Todsen traditions. Great Marie and (early on) Leonore,
though.
David Shengold (dshe...@mhc.mtholyoke.edu)
Ed Rosen
In <3559e...@news.mtholyoke.edu> Peter Scotto <psc...@mtholyoke.edu>
writes:
I meant, or course, 20th century history of opera- not 20th century
music!!! And I disagree with you, with all due respect.
Ed
jfu...@unix.asb.com
In article <35595F...@midway.uchicago.edu>, dga...@midway.uchicago.edu
wrote:
> Ed Rosen wrote:
>
> > when the history of 20th century opera is written,
> > Renata Tebaldi will have a place of honor right at the top of the list.
>
> Well, she certainly won't be near the top of mine, and she was certainly
> no Ponselle.
>
> -david gable
What a stupid statement - she was no Leonard Warren either.
Richard C. Wall
Okay, I'm going to re state my position:
Hildegard Behrens is a fine artist, who sings most in the Germanic, Northern
European repertory. She is a committed dramatic actress, but she sometimes
has vocal problems.
Renata Tebaldi is a fine artist, possessed of a beautiful legato, wonderful
musicianship and great feeling in her singing. She was hampered in her
onstage histrionics by polio which occurred during her lifetime. She, too,
had some vocal problems towards the end of her career.
Who didn't?
Comparing these two women and their careers is like comparing sable and ermine.
There.
Richard
GregF NC
>What I don't understand is why having a short top is considered a flaw in a
soprano. Not just certain types of sopranos, but all sopranos.
>
Tebaldi, etc.---have a short top. Most dramatic sopranos---Rysanek, Borkh,
Stratas, etc.---have a short top, too. It seems that, in general, the voices
most suited to sing the heavier Italian and German roles are short on top. If
that's the case, then having a short top is not a flaw, it's merely a
characteristic.
>
>I can understand criticizing a lyric or coloratura soprano for having a short
top. Coloraturas especially are supposed to be able to sing high and with
agility. But criticizing a lirico spinto or a dramatic soprano for having a
short top seems a bit screwy to me.
>
>For example, I can understand someone criticizing Ponselle for singing
Violetta because her voice was too heavy for the role, but I can't understand
someone saying Ponselle had a bad voice because she sang a role she wasn't
perfectly suited for. I also don't think you can say Tebaldi had a bad top or
was a lousy
singer because she barely missed a high C on an "Aida" recording once.
I would not say Tebaldi, Ponselle, or any other singer that you've mentioned
are "lousy" - in fact they are are at the top of their profession. But in many
cases it is because of the beauty of their voices and, in some cases, their
personal charm as well, or perhaps their dramatic capabilities.
However, the composers did write these notes and it is to be expected that the
greatest interpreters would have the voice and range to perform them according
to the composer's intentions. I would expect any major operatic soprano to
have a secure high C and generally they do. I would also expect any major
Verdi tenor to have a high C and any such baritone to have a high G. Without
them, it can be difficult for them to meet the demands of the score and of the
public.
But for a soprano not to have a good high C? Ask Kirsten Flagstad, when it was
found out that Schwarzkopf's voice was used for the high C in the Liebestod in
the complete Tristan on EMI, whether she was criticized for it.
Again, I wouldn't say any of these singers are lousy, but their high notes are
something each of us can take into account when doing our own personal
evaluations.
Greg F(in North Carolina)
Enrique Eskenazi
In article <355A08CB...@mindspring.com>, "Richard C. Wall"
<rcw...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Renata Tebaldi is a fine artist, possessed of a beautiful legato,
wonderful
>musicianship and great feeling in her singing. She was hampered in her
>onstage histrionics by polio which occurred during her lifetime.
The Forza video shows a splendid and convincing Leonora. If Tebaldi on
stage was like this, she must have been really moving. Her 'acting'(as
shown in that video) is quite adequate and communicative.
daniel kessler
james_...@smtplink.mssm.edu wrote:
When I have had a hard day at work and I snap at a cab
>driver, my remark really has no relevance either to his driving or to him personally.
Whatever is Jorden talking about? He can't afford taxis! The subway
would be more like his mode of transport.
Richard C. Wall
Damned right!
Salome45
Geez it took the UNvenerable tritter to bring me out of total
retirement in this ng to jump into this thread that must win all the
awards in the absurdity department.
A comparison of the greatest Wagnerian and Straussian soprano of the
last quarter of this closing century with the greatest verismo soprano
of the previous quarter is so absurd as to defy any understanding why
would it even take place in the first place, let alone go for this
length without ever addressing the substance (or lack of) of the
comparison.
Let's see, could anyone imagine the glorious Tebaldi sound (I admit of
course to being a huge fan of her voice if not always her artistry)
being applied to the final pages of the Immolation Scene with the
ever-rising, sustained tessitura, melting into the final phrases with
the incandescence that the glorious Behrens has provided the world over
in no less than SIX!!!! new productions of the Ring mounted especially
for her? Or throw herself into the rigors of Act II with the octave
leaping, high lying phrases, not to mention the mad theatrical intensity
of Behrens? The obvious answer is that Ms Tebaldi herself would chuckle
at the thought. Similarly would Ms Tebaldi chuckle if not shudder at the
thought of having to tackle the rigors of the Elektra Monolgue rising to
a high C that Ms Tebaldi never had, or could Ms Tebaldi shape the
glorious high tessitura of "Es ruhrt sich niemand ..." in the
Recognition Scene, and so on with the rest of the opera. Ms Tebaldi
would of course again shudder at the tessitura of the Salome-Jochanaan
duet and imagine her in the Final Scene............ All of this purely
vocally, without mentioning Ms Behrens exquisite command of her native
tongue, and well, her acting compares quite favorably to far grander
actresses than Ms Tebaldi could ever claim. Sensible so far? BTW
Ponselle has nothing to do with this either right? bringing her name
into this is either pedantic and silly name-dropping (the "oh but you
have never heard Ponselle" silly mantra) or downright stupid, take your
pick.
Now the reverse, Ms Behrens would no doubt have to yield to Ms Tebaldi
on roles like Maddalena in Chenier, and La Wally, and Adriana
Lecouvreur, and Minnie in Fanciulla, Ms Tebaldi walks with those roles
hands down, her gorgeous tone, her command of the line in her native
tongue (not as good as Callas of course) and her general suitability,
add to that also all of her Puccini repertoire. It is here where Ms
Tebaldi had few if any equals but Behrens has never pretended to
encroach in this repertoire, because she is much too busy singing for a
world public that still clamors for her Wagner and Strauss heroines, so
what is the point of carrying the comparison? If I remember correctly
the original poster "accidentally" brought the two names together and it
should have ended at that, but windbags like tritter never hesitate to
take on the opportunity to sell their tired, worn out, tirades
repeateing always the same old nonsense frequently based on twenty year
old facts or no facts at all, which makes sense to them and them only.
Unfortunately there are a lot of impressionable young people in this ng
and that is the reason why I had to come out to unmask him one more
time.
Now if you really want to have an intelligent argument about who is
"better/worse" in the specific fach of the one and only Hildegard
Behrens, that is the hochdramatisch Wagner/Strauss heroines, why not
then really train your guns on real issues and come up with real
arguments:
Compare Behrens beauty of tone with such other great
Wagnerians/Straussians such as Varnay, Moedl and Jones, with examples of
what it takes to deliver the "Grand Wagnerian Line"
Compare Behrens insight of character, vocal acting, and overal
intelligence of concept and depth with other great
Wagnerians/Straussians such as Flagstad and Nilsson
If you really want to measure the full impact of what Behrens has to
offer in the theater, as Brunnhilde for example, then compare her to the
only previous diva who shared the combination of gorgeous, freely
produced top, and fearless bottom; with musical intelligence, theatrical
intensity, commitment, immaculate phrasing and of course great acting,
and then of course you would have to compare Behrens only to Frieda
Leider, now that should make an interesting and lively discussion, but
something as futile and absurd as comparing Behrens with Tebaldi and to
insisit on carrying on, could only be the brainchild of geniuses such as
a tritter whose only real province of expertise afterall would seem to
be in the realm of Les Hugenots, Lucia and other heavyweights of the
lyric theater.
Gaston O. (back from exile just this one time)
P.S. tritter, if you MUST flood my private mailbox with garbage like you
did the last time (remember?), don't bother because I leave this Friday
for Buenos Aires where the glorious Behrens will sing Goetterdaemmerung
at the Teatro Colon, that's right! finishing up her SEVENTH new
production of the Ring mounted just for her, and from there I'll follow
her to Copenhagen where she will receive the Leonie Sonning Prize for
LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT in music. Birgit Nilsson was a previous recipient
in case you are too ignorant to know, so much for what real people in
the know think about "her modest gifts". I guess she "fills the vacum"
when it comes to walking off with major world prizes also just because
the world "needs" to give top recognition.
Gaston Ormazabal
Salome45
I should have stated in the original post that this was posted with full
permission of Mr Ormazabal.
~Amanda
>Geez it took the UNvenerable tritter to bring me out of total<BR>
>retirement in this ng to jump into this thread that must win all the<BR>
>awards in the absurdity department.<BR>
><BR>
>A comparison of the greatest Wagnerian and Straussian soprano of the<BR>
>last quarter of this closing century with the greatest verismo soprano<BR>
>of the previous quarter is so absurd as to defy any understanding why<BR>
>would it even take place in the first place, let alone go for this<BR>
>length without ever addressing the substance (or lack of) of the<BR>
>comparison.<BR>
><BR>
> Let's see, could anyone imagine the glorious Tebaldi sound (I admit of<BR>
>course to being a huge fan of her voice if not always her artistry)<BR>
>being applied to the final pages of the Immolation Scene with the<BR>
>ever-rising, sustained tessitura, melting into the final phrases with<BR>
>the incandescence that the glorious Behrens has provided the world over<BR>
>in no less than SIX!!!! new productions of the Ring mounted especially<BR>
>for her? Or throw herself into the rigors of Act II with the octave<BR>
>leaping, high lying phrases, not to mention the mad theatrical intensity<BR>
>of Behrens? The obvious answer is that Ms Tebaldi herself would chuckle<BR>
>at the thought. Similarly would Ms Tebaldi chuckle if not shudder at the<BR>
>thought of having to tackle the rigors of the Elektra Monolgue rising to<BR>
>a high C that Ms Tebaldi never had, or could Ms Tebaldi shape the<BR>
>glorious high tessitura of "Es ruhrt sich niemand ..." in the<BR>
>Recognition Scene, and so on with the rest of the opera. Ms Tebaldi<BR>
>would of course again shudder at the tessitura of the Salome-Jochanaan<BR>
>duet and imagine her in the Final Scene............ All of this purely<BR>
>vocally, without mentioning Ms Behrens exquisite command of her native<BR>
>tongue, and well, her acting compares quite favorably to far grander<BR>
>actresses than Ms Tebaldi could ever claim. Sensible so far? BTW<BR>
>Ponselle has nothing to do with this either right? bringing her name<BR>
>into this is either pedantic and silly name-dropping (the "oh but you<BR>
>have never heard Ponselle" silly mantra) or downright stupid, take your<BR>
>pick.<BR>
><BR>
>Now the reverse, Ms Behrens would no doubt have to yield to Ms Tebaldi<BR>
>on roles like Maddalena in Chenier, and La Wally, and Adriana<BR>
>Lecouvreur, and Minnie in Fanciulla, Ms Tebaldi walks with those roles<BR>
>hands down, her gorgeous tone, her command of the line in her native<BR>
>tongue (not as good as Callas of course) and her general suitability,<BR>
>add to that also all of her Puccini repertoire. It is here where Ms<BR>
>Tebaldi had few if any equals but Behrens has never pretended to<BR>
>encroach in this repertoire, because she is much too busy singing for a<BR>
>world public that still clamors for her Wagner and Strauss heroines, so<BR>
>what is the point of carrying the comparison? If I remember correctly<BR>
>the original poster "accidentally" brought the two names together and it<BR>
>should have ended at that, but windbags like tritter never hesitate to<BR>
>take on the opportunity to sell their tired, worn out, tirades<BR>
>repeateing always the same old nonsense frequently based on twenty year<BR>
>old facts or no facts at all, which makes sense to them and them only.<BR>
>Unfortunately there are a lot of impressionable young people in this ng<BR>
>and that is the reason why I had to come out to unmask him one more<BR>
>time.<BR>
><BR>
>Now if you really want to have an intelligent argument about who is<BR>
>"better/worse" in the specific fach of the one and only Hildegard<BR>
>Behrens, that is the hochdramatisch Wagner/Strauss heroines, why not<BR>
>then really train your guns on real issues and come up with real<BR>
>arguments:<BR>
><BR>
>Compare Behrens beauty of tone with such other great<BR>
>Wagnerians/Straussians such as Varnay, Moedl and Jones, with examples of<BR>
>what it takes to deliver the "Grand Wagnerian Line"<BR>
><BR>
>Compare Behrens insight of character, vocal acting, and overal<BR>
>intelligence of concept and depth with other great<BR>
>Wagnerians/Straussians such as Flagstad and Nilsson<BR>
><BR>
>If you really want to measure the full impact of what Behrens has to<BR>
>offer in the theater, as Brunnhilde for example, then compare her to the<BR>
>only previous diva who shared the combination of gorgeous, freely<BR>
>produced top, and fearless bottom; with musical intelligence, theatrical<BR>
>intensity, commitment, immaculate phrasing and of course great acting,<BR>
>and then of course you would have to compare Behrens only to Frieda<BR>
>Leider, now that should make an interesting and lively discussion, but<BR>
>something as futile and absurd as comparing Behrens with Tebaldi and to<BR>
>insisit on carrying on, could only be the brainchild of geniuses such as<BR>
>a tritter whose only real province of expertise afterall would seem to<BR>
>be in the realm of Les Hugenots, Lucia and other heavyweights of the<BR>
>lyric theater.<BR>
><BR>
>Gaston O. (back from exile just this one time)<BR>
><BR>
>gas...@basit.com<BR>
><BR>
>P.S. tritter, if you MUST flood my private mailbox with garbage like you<BR>
>did the last time (remember?), don't bother because I leave this Friday<BR>
>for Buenos Aires where the glorious Behrens will sing Goetterdaemmerung<BR>
>at the Teatro Colon, that's right! finishing up her SEVENTH new<BR>
>production of the Ring mounted just for her, and from there I'll follow<BR>
>her to Copenhagen where she will receive the Leonie Sonning Prize for<BR>
>LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT in music. Birgit Nilsson was a previous recipient<BR>
>in case you are too ignorant to know, so much for what real people in<BR>
>the know think about "her modest gifts". I guess she "fills the vacum"<BR>
>when it comes to walking off with major world prizes also just because<BR>
>the world "needs" to give top recognition.<BR>
><BR>
>Gaston Ormazabal<BR>
Amanda
~too little temptation can lead to virtue~
Sara Freeman
In <199805142017...@ladder03.news.aol.com> salo...@aol.com
(Salome45) writes:
>
>Geez it took the UNvenerable tritter to bring me out of total
>retirement in this ng to jump into this thread that must win all the
>awards in the absurdity department.
>
>A comparison of the greatest Wagnerian and Straussian soprano of the
>last quarter of this closing century
You will be happy to know that I am dying from laughter. My last gasp
is coming up soon.
--
"If you think of reality as the software for the universe,
all it would take is for someone to change a comma
in the program, and the chair you are sitting on
wouldn't be a chair at all." - Jacques Vallee
Enrique Eskenazi
In article <jfuller-1305...@x2haup25.asb.com>,
jfu...@unix.asb.com wrote:
>What a stupid statement - she (Tebaldi) was no Leonard Warren either.
Are you sure? :-)
(Sorry, I couldn't help it)
Salome45
>You will be happy to know that I am dying from laughter. My last gasp
>is coming up soon.
Sara, I don't care HOW you do it....I just hope you go painfully and slowly.
And by the way....the post wasn't meant to be funny. I posted it for a friend
who posted it, and couldn't see it when it was posted.
Okay Sara..back to dying. Why don't you take a nice dose of strychnine?
Lis K. Froding
In article <199805142017...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
salo...@aol.com (Salome45) wrote:
>Geez it took the UNvenerable tritter to bring me out of total
>retirement in this ng to jump into this thread that must win all the
>awards in the absurdity department.
>
>Gaston Ormazabal
Hello, "Dressmaker to the Heavenly Princess"! We haven't seen you
around in a very long time.
Lis
Ed Rosen
I see the posts have picked up greatly after 10PM EDT. Could it have
been the final episode of Seinfeld that caused the relative silence in
the previous two hours? I know I watched it.
Did any of you catch Callas when they had a brief set of clips showing
people who were called "crazy" who changed the world? I saw Einstein,
King)(Martin Luther), Gandi, Callas- and then Jerry Seinfeld! What an
amazing collection! The tag line was "think different."
Ed
Salome45
>they had a brief set of clips showing
>people who were called "crazy" who changed the world? I saw Einstein,
>King)(Martin Luther), Gandi, Callas- and then Jerry Seinfeld! What an
>amazing collection! The tag line was "think different."
That was an Apple computer commercial :)
Richard C. Wall
Actually, it was a Macintosh commercial. But, you're right
dtritter
Sara Freeman wrote:
>
> In <199805142017...@ladder03.news.aol.com> salo...@aol.com
> (Salome45) writes:
> >
> >retirement in this ng to jump into this thread that must win all the
> >awards in the absurdity department.
> >
> >A comparison of the greatest Wagnerian and Straussian soprano of the
> >last quarter of this closing century
>
> is coming up soon.
Promises! Promises!
dft
Lis K. Froding
In article <199805142058...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
salo...@aol.com (Salome45) wrote:
>
>I should have stated in the original post that this was posted with full
>permission of Mr Ormazabal.
>~Amanda
Amanda, you got me there ;-)
Lis
Miriam
In article <6jgacl$i9h$1...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>,
lyr...@ix.netcom.com(Ed Rosen) wrote:
> I see the posts have picked up greatly after 10PM EDT. Could it have
> been the final episode of Seinfeld that caused the relative silence in
> the previous two hours? I know I watched it.
>
> Did any of you catch Callas when they had a brief set of clips showing
> people who were called "crazy" who changed the world? I saw Einstein,
> King)(Martin Luther), Gandi, Callas- and then Jerry Seinfeld! What an
> amazing collection! The tag line was "think different."
>
>
> Ed
Apple's new ad campaign (Think Different) for the Macintosh features
Callas, Picasso, Einstein, etc., Seinfeld must have just been added -
hadn't seen that one until the last episode.
Miriam
Salome45
>Amanda, you got me there ;-)
:)
AT
DID ANYBODY REALLY SING MUSICALLY AND IN STYLE,? ACCORDING TO THE NG NOBODY
DID,
OH WELL I HAVE DECIDED IT , I WILL ONLY LISTEN TO BOCELLI, BOULTON , AND
ARETHA FROM NOW ON!!!!
Tebaldi was no >Leonard Warren. He was far superior to Tebaldi as musician
and singer.
>
>-david gable
James Jorden
David wrote:
> If I say "Bill Clinton is no
> George Washington," I am not simply observing that Bill Clinton and
> George Washington are not the same person. I am claiming (a) George
> Washington is superior to Bill Clinton, and (b) that the comparison of
> Bill Clinton to George Washington is totally without merit and an
> injustice to Washington. A similar rhetorical thrust is characteristic
> of all statements that take this form, including the statement that
> "Tebaldi is no Ponselle."
I suggest yet a third reading, which is, I think, the one jfuller was
aiming for in his light-hearted response. Tebaldi vs. Ponselle is
simply not a very useful comparison. Yes, they were in in approximately
the same fach, and, yes, both were a little short on high notes. There
the similarities end. Ponselle boasted an astonishing *natural* agility
which very few large-voiced sopranos can rival, even after much exacting
study. She was, in a sense, born to sing Verdi -- and, of course,
Norma. Tebaldi's success in her finest Verdi roles (including
Desdemona) was rather more hard-won. Her more natural bent was for
verismo opera, in which at her best she made an amazing emotional
effect, while still maintaining the control for perfectly supported
piano singing in the most ravishing half-voice. She was also a warmly
sympathetic figure on stage, which, according to contemporary reports,
Ponselle was not.
One might, I think, compare Callas to Ponselle with some point. But I
submit that saying "Tebaldi was no Ponselle" is almost as meaningless as
saying "Tebaldi was no Warren." The comparison is very close to
useless.
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
latest opera gossip from parterre box:
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre/lacieca.htm
James Jorden
David wrote:
> When the proper noun "Tebaldi" is used as the subject of a sentence, the
> subject of the sentence is Tebaldi. In that fundamental sense, Callas's
> remark was undeniably AIMED at Tebaldi.
Well, actually, I believe that "Tebaldi" and "me" (i.e., Callas) were
parallel objects in that sentence.
> How are we supposed to interpret the English language? If I say, "James
> Jorden can't understand the English language," my remark is aimed at
> James Jorden.
We are now quibbling over the meaning of the word "aim." My contention
is simply that Callas's statement is more a reflection of her
frustration and insecurity than it is a deliberate and premeditated
attack on Tebaldi -- just as the sentences quoted above are expressions
of your own annoyance with me. The rest is hair-splitting and you are
welcome to it.
Michael E. Miller/Robert E. Seletsky
I can't believe people are still referring to the champagne/coca cola
remark over forty years later. Does no one here know that both parties,
over twenty years ago, revealed that all the fuss was to sell records
using this trumped-up rivalry. It's true that after Tebaldi upstaged
Callas in a 1951 concert in Rio by singing unscheduled arias, Callas was
a little cool toward her, but for heaven's sake, Callas' and Tebaldi's
career goals were different: Callas knew she was certainly not going to
sing, .e.g., La Fanciulla de West, while Tebaldi had no interest or
inclination toward something like Il Pirata. So what are we talking
about?
Robert Seletsky
David
james_...@smtplink.mssm.edu wrote:
> Callas's outburst was, in my opinion, an irrational
> expression of her feelings of insecurity. As such, it was not "aimed" > at
> Tebaldi at all.
When the proper noun "Tebaldi" is used as the subject of a sentence, the
subject of the sentence is Tebaldi. In that fundamental sense, Callas's
remark was undeniably AIMED at Tebaldi.
How are we supposed to interpret the English language? If I say, "James
Jorden can't understand the English language," my remark is aimed at
James Jorden.
This is not to deny that there may be any number of different reasons
why I aimed my remark at James Jorden. Similarly, it may have been
insecurity that lead Callas to denigrate Tebaldi, but denigrate Tebaldi
she did.
> Now, Callas's remark was INTERPRETED as a slam at Tebaldi's abilities > as a
> performing artist, but that is of course a completely different matter.
> Interpretation reveals far more about the interpreter than it does the > source.
You are the person who is imposing an INTERPRETATION on the bald
statement made by Mme. Callas, which reveals more about you than it does
about Callas. You are the one who discounts the literal meaning of her
statement by means of an INTERPRETATION. To paraphrase you, "Callas
said X, but she didn't really mean X."
> Anyway, under no circumstances should this off-the-cuff remark be taken as
> serious music criticism.
Granted! Its seriousness is not under discussion.
Finally, the analogy you draw between (a) Callas aiming a remark at
Tebaldi and (b) your aiming a remark at a cab driver in anger is inexact
in the extreme. This hypothetical cab driver is an innocent bystander
chosen at random for no other reason than his physical proximity.
Callas didn't choose her target at random. Far from it. To use your
word, she chose her "rival." Callas knew perfectly well she was talking
about Tebaldi. Accordingly, she used the proper noun Tebaldi as the
subject of a sentence, AIMING the remark at Tebaldi.
-david gable
David
I wrote:
> she [i.e., Tebaldi] was certainly
> no Ponselle.
which caused jfuller to exclaim:
> What a stupid statement - she was no Leonard Warren either.
jfuller's response betrays an obdurate literal-mindedness, or at least a
lack of familiarity with rhetorical constructions that take the form "X
is no Y." In such constructions, it is always LITERALLY the case that X
is not Y. My statement is only stupid if you insist on reading it
literally, because at a literal level, it is obviously and trivially
true that person X is not person Y. RHETORICALLY, however, the thrust
of this statement is not trivially true; it is the expression of a
judgment on the part of the speaker. If I say "Bill Clinton is no
George Washington," I am not simply observing that Bill Clinton and
George Washington are not the same person. I am claiming (a) George
Washington is superior to Bill Clinton, and (b) that the comparison of
Bill Clinton to George Washington is totally without merit and an
injustice to Washington. A similar rhetorical thrust is characteristic
of all statements that take this form, including the statement that
"Tebaldi is no Ponselle." Which doesn't mean that you have to agree
with this judgment. I do agree with you, though, that Tebaldi was no
Ivrys88
"Michael E. Miller/Robert E. Seletsky" <mem...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>I can't believe people are still referring to the champagne/coca cola
>remark over forty years later. Does no one here know that both parties,
>over twenty years ago, revealed that all the fuss was to sell records
>using this trumped-up rivalry.
When and where did Callas and/or Tebaldi say this? I'd be interested to know,
never having seen such a statement from either of them in any medium. Was it
perhaps backstage at Adriana Lecouvreur in 1968?
Ed Rosen
In <355FA3...@sprintmail.com> "Michael E. Miller/Robert E.
Seletsky" <mem...@sprintmail.com> writes:
>
>I can't believe people are still referring to the champagne/coca cola
>remark over forty years later. Does no one here know that both
parties,
>over twenty years ago, revealed that all the fuss was to sell records
>Callas in a 1951 concert in Rio by singing unscheduled arias, Callas
was
>a little cool toward her, but for heaven's sake, Callas' and Tebaldi's
>career goals were different: Callas knew she was certainly not going
to
>sing, .e.g., La Fanciulla de West, while Tebaldi had no interest or
>inclination toward something like Il Pirata. So what are we talking
>about?
>
>Robert Seletsky
They didn't have computers 40 years ago, so we're just catching up!
Ed
David
But the comparison of Tebaldi to Ponselle didn't originate with me!
Someone else made the comparison, and I replied, "She ain't no
Ponselle."
-david gable
David
> My contention
> is simply that Callas's statement is more a reflection of her
> frustration and insecurity than it is a deliberate and premeditated
> attack on Tebaldi
Oh, I don't think it was a deliberate and premeditated attack! I'm sure
it was a spontaneous jibe. I just think it was aimed at Tebaldi. ("I
am champagne. Tebaldi is Coca-Cola.") I believe that your analysis of
Callas's psychological motivation is probably substantially correct.
But originally you seemed to be claiming that what Callas said had
NOTHING whatsoever to do with Tebaldi! I just don't see how Callas's
statement can be made to support this interpretation.
-david gable
-david gable
Ed Rosen
The famous quote of Callas certainly was not premeditated, since she
said it in response to a question of some sort.
Ed
Richard C. Wall
And you are no critic, sir.
Charles Bollman
Don"t forget about Betsy Russell.
--
Ciao Babes!
Charles Realname Bollman
AT wrote in message <6jo4fl$h...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>DID ANYBODY REALLY SING MUSICALLY AND IN STYLE,? ACCORDING TO THE NG NOBODY
>DID,
>OH WELL I HAVE DECIDED IT , I WILL ONLY LISTEN TO BOCELLI, BOULTON , AND
>ARETHA FROM NOW ON!!!!
>