Lohengrin - What happens to Elsa ?
Mark Dillon
I was always under the impression that at the end of Lohengrin Elsa
dies until I saw it recently at the Opéra Bastille (where while not
full of life at the end she is definitely alive) and read a review of
a production (I think in the US) in Opera Magazine saying that at the
end "Elsa was very much alive." So back I went to the libretto (fro
the Kempe recording) and the ENO/Calder book on Lohengrin. No luck.
The CD booklet uses three different formulae: in French (évanouier -
to faint); in English ("falls lifeless to the ground"); in German,
can't remember off-hand but it doesn't even mention her physical
state. The ENO book also uses "lifeless".
So can anyone enlighten me, preferably by reference to the original
score (I've got Viking etcŠ). What did Wagner really want to happen to
Elsa, and at the risk of launching a polemic, what in general do you
think about Opera producers modifying the composer's wishes in such a
manner ?
Mark Dillon
Joe
One curious modification I recall was , I believe, in a Paris Zefirelli
production of Lucia,
where Lucia's ghost (Sutherland) appeared in the background during
Edgardo's final scene.
This was obviously a showman's manipulation to entitle the soprano to a
curtain call at the
end of the opera, usually not taken, at least at the Met.
I'm not sure about Elsa, perhaps Franco knows, he's full of ideas. I've
always wondered about Elektra, too - do you think it was an anurism? She
was pretty stressed. There's also a rumor
in certain circles that Tosca survived the fall.
Cheers,
Joe
In article <32EDDF...@dialup.francenet.fr>, Mark Dillon
<dil...@dialup.francenet.fr> wrote:
Mark Dillon
--
If fools and folly rule the world, the end of man in our time may come as a
rude shock, but it will no longer come as a complete surprise. - Abdul
Rahman Pazhnak
Terrymelin
When Lyric Opera of Chicago mounted a new production of Lucia for June
Anderson several years ago they also had Lucia's ghost appear in the last
act which enabled her to be present for the final curtain calls.
I also recall that the Herzog Lohengrin at Bayreuth (on laser) has Elsa
and Ortrud link hands at the end which I thought very odd especially since
the rest of the production was outstanding.
Terry Ellsworth, Chicago
Grant Menzies
Mark Dillon <dil...@dialup.francenet.fr> wrote:
>I was always under the impression that at the end of Lohengrin Elsa
>dies until I saw it recently at the Opéra Bastille (where while not
>full of life at the end she is definitely alive) and read a review of
>a production (I think in the US) in Opera Magazine saying that at the
>end "Elsa was very much alive." So back I went to the libretto (fro
>the Kempe recording) and the ENO/Calder book on Lohengrin. No luck.
>The CD booklet uses three different formulae: in French (évanouier -
>to faint); in English ("falls lifeless to the ground"); in German,
>can't remember off-hand but it doesn't even mention her physical
>state. The ENO book also uses "lifeless".
>So can anyone enlighten me, preferably by reference to the original
>score (I've got Viking etcŠ). What did Wagner really want to happen to
>Elsa, and at the risk of launching a polemic, what in general do you
>think about Opera producers modifying the composer's wishes in such a
>manner ?
This is interesting, because it's not really clear that Isolde dies in
the literal sense, either. The German merely says that she "sinks as
if transfigured on Tristan's corpse". However, Wagner does use the
word "entseelt" with Elsa, which makes it clear she's dead as she
sinks in Gottfried's arms. (Heck if I know why she should! ;-)
G M Menzies
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Se non e vero, e molto ben trovato
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Ilkka Soini
>So can anyone enlighten me, preferably by reference to the original
>score (I've got Viking etcŠ). What did Wagner really want to happen to
>Elsa, and at the risk of launching a polemic, what in general do you
>think about Opera producers modifying the composer's wishes in such a
>manner ?
In the original partitura Wagner writes: "Elsa sinkt entseelt in
Gottfried's Armen zu Boden". I'd translate this "entseelt" "lifeless".
Comments from experts in German!
* * *
In the Finnish National Opera's "Lohengrin" Elsa stood at the end on
the stage holding the sword and the ring in her hands and staring at
them. I found this solution rather confusing, too... I heard later
that the basic idea was that everything had happened in Elsa's dreams.
No one could, however, exactly tell me how she got these items in her
hands ;-))
Ilkka Soini
MD
Vantaa
FINLAND
RKDX
In the Chicago Lucia, not only did Lucia appear in the final scene of act
3, she handed Edgardo the knife that he used to commit suicide.
Good listening
Robert Kramer
dtri...@bway.net
too basd she didn't use it on Alden,
dft
Peter
The key word at the end of Lohengrin as far as Elsa's fate is concerned
is "entseelt."
This word means "dead" as well as "lifeless." (Langenscheidt and
Cassell's German-English dictionaries)
Since it is possible for a person to fall into a "dead" or "lifeless"
faint without being actually dead, perhaps Wagner meant the latter, and
did not intend to "kill her off"?
What do you think?
Tauser
She is given a sword, a horn and a ring - presumably to give to little
confused Gottfried and make him into a hero. {Does anyone find it
surprising that Wagner soon after completing 'Lohengrin' began work on
'Siegfried's Death'?} Having her faint (at Lohengrin's departure? the
return of the long-lost brother? the duration of the opera?) makes her not
particularly helpful to Gottfried (who will presumably rule Brabant when
he reaches his majority). In San Francisco this last year, she didn't
faint or die....just tried to comfort the little boy and give him
Lohengrin's superman toys. Nowadays I guess you would give power ties.
Cordially, Tauser
Gary Greenbaum
tau...@aol.com (Tauser) wrote:
> In San Francisco this last year, she didn't
>faint or die....just tried to comfort the little boy and give him
>Lohengrin's superman toys. Nowadays I guess you would give power ties.
In 1990 in Bayreuth, I saw a production that ended with Elsa and
Ortrud standing separately, each with their arms outspread to
Gottfried, who is looking uncertainly from one to the other as the
curtain falls. Very thoughtful.
Gary Greenbaum
Derrick Everett
On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:49:15 GMT i...@clinet.fi (Ilkka Soini) wrote:
>
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:14:03 +0000, Mark Dillon
> <dil...@dialup.francenet.fr> wrote:
>
>
> >So can anyone enlighten me, preferably by reference to the original
> >score (I've got Viking etcŠ). What did Wagner really want to happen to
> >Elsa, and at the risk of launching a polemic, what in general do you
> >think about Opera producers modifying the composer's wishes in such a
> >manner ?
>
> In the original partitura Wagner writes: "Elsa sinkt entseelt in
> Gottfried's Armen zu Boden". I'd translate this "entseelt" "lifeless".
> Comments from experts in German!
I'm not, but I can contribute that the final stage instruction in the
"Gesammelte Schriften" is as follows:
"Elsa gleitet in Gottfried's Armen entseelt langsam zu Boden."
> * * *
> In the Finnish National Opera's "Lohengrin" Elsa stood at the end on
> the stage holding the sword and the ring in her hands and staring at
> them. I found this solution rather confusing, too... I heard later
> that the basic idea was that everything had happened in Elsa's dreams.
> No one could, however, exactly tell me how she got these items in her
> hands ;-))
I don't think that it's necessary that Elsa should die at the end,
although that seems to have been the composer's intention, but her
parting from Lohengrin *is* essential. In his "Communication", Wagner
wrote of "the tragical necessity of the parting, the unavoidable undoing
of this pair of lovers".
In the same essay, Wagner wrote that Elsa (a personification of the
unconscious) had shown him the way to Siegfried (a personification of
instinct). It may not be coincidental that the three accessories (or
talismans?) that Lohengrin leaves with Elsa, to equip Gottfried, are a
horn, a sword and a ring. These symbols, and their associated motives,
are key elements of the story of his Volsung hero.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Derrick (Oslo, Norway)
Check out my Web page at: http://home.sn.no/~deverett/
Jacob Stevens
In article <32ee1...@atheria.europa.com>,
scot...@europa.com (Grant Menzies) writes:
> Mark Dillon <dil...@dialup.francenet.fr> wrote:
>
>>So can anyone enlighten me, preferably by reference to the original
>>score (I've got Viking etcŠ). What did Wagner really want to happen to
>>Elsa, and at the risk of launching a polemic, what in general do you
>>think about Opera producers modifying the composer's wishes in such a
>>manner ?
>
> the literal sense, either. The German merely says that she "sinks as
> if transfigured on Tristan's corpse". However, Wagner does use the
> word "entseelt" with Elsa, which makes it clear she's dead as she
> sinks in Gottfried's arms. (Heck if I know why she should! ;-)
What about Gutrune, for that matter? Spencer's translation (which usually
seems to be very accurate) has: "Filled with shame, she turns away from
Siegfried and, dying, bends over Gunther's body, where she remains
motionless until the end."
The booklet that goes with the recording I own, however, has the following
stage instruction: "Fearfully she turns away from Siegfried and, dissolved
in grief, bends over Gunther's body: she remains like this, motionless,
until the end."
Does anybody know what the full score says?
Jacob
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacob Stevens Email: jt...@cam.ac.uk
Clare College, Cambridge, UK.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fiorella S. Beckmeier
> > <dil...@dialup.francenet.fr> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >So can anyone enlighten me, preferably by reference to the original
> > >score (I've got Viking etcŠ). What did Wagner really want to happen to
> >
> > In the original partitura Wagner writes: "Elsa sinkt entseelt in
> > Gottfried's Armen zu Boden". I'd translate this "entseelt" "lifeless".
> > Comments from experts in German!
>
>
I have followed this thread with interest hoping that someone would provide a definitive answer to the
question. Since most people seem as confused as I am about "what happens to Elsa", I thought I would
complicate things by asking another question which has puzzled me since I first heard the opera: What are
Lohengrin's intentions when he proposes marriage to Elsa?
The phrase that puzzles me is in his final farewell to Elsa (Act III, Scene 2): "O Elsa! Nur ein Jahr an deine
seiter hatt'ich als Zeuge deines Glucks ersehnt!", which in the two libretti I have is translated as: "I had
longed to witness just one year of happiness at your side," and in the other "For one year only I longed to be
beside thee as witness of thy happiness!." Was Lohengrin planning to leave Elsa anyway after one year? Or can
the phrase be translated as: "After only one year at your side, I would have witnessed your happiness" (my
husband who knows German says it can't. If the translations in the two librettos are accurate, then Elsa's
fear that Lohengrin would leave her was well founded. But would Lohengrin have married her knowing that he
would leave her? Seems a bit callous on Lohengrin's part, doesn't it? Pinkerton of the Holy Graal? (they both
arrive on a boat...) Can anybody clarify?
Fiorella
And in case someone should be tempted to elaborate on the boat parallel, it was a joke.
Peter
Was Lohengrin planning to leave Elsa anyway after one year? Or can
> the phrase be translated as: "After only one year at your side, I would have witnessed your happiness"
I'll try and clarify your question:
Lohengrin says:
Mein lieber Schwan!
Ach! diese letzte traur'ge Fahrt,
Wie gern haett' ich sie dir erspart!
In einem Jahr, wenn deine Zeit
Im Dienst zu Ende sollte geh'n--
Dann, durch des Grales Macht befreit,
Wollt' ich dich anders wiederseh'n!
O Elsa! Nur ein Jahr an deiner Seite
Haett' ich als Zeuge deines Gluecks ersehnt!
Dan kehrte, selig in des Gral's Geleite,
Dein Bruder wieder, den du todt gewaehnt--
My dear swan!
Oh! This last sad journey,
How gladly I would have saved you from it!
In one year, when your time
In service should have ended--
Then, freed through the might of the Grail,
I wanted to see you again in another form!
O Elsa! Just one year at your side
I would have sought as witness to your happiness!
Then would return, happy in the Grail's accompaniment,
Your brother, whom you had deemed dead--
The above my own very literal translation
So you see, Lohengrin merely meant that after he had been at Elsa's side
for one year, her brother would have been returned. Nowhere is there
any indication that Lohengrin would have left Elsa after one year.
However the relatively "old style" German that Wagner sometimes uses is
tricky to understand, and even more so to translate, particularly if one
attempts to keep the same rhyme.
I hope that the above helps a bit.
Fiorella S. Beckmeier
Thanks Peter! What a relief! And by the way, that's a better translation than any libretto I've read.
Fiorella
Uwe Schneider
On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Peter wrote:
> The key word at the end of Lohengrin as far as Elsa's fate is concerned
> is "entseelt."
>
> This word means "dead" as well as "lifeless." (Langenscheidt and
> Cassell's German-English dictionaries)
>
well, I am german (and as it happens a teacher of german literature) - so
let me try to give you an idea of what "entseelt"
realy stands for. I don't think there's an english word for it.
It's an expression which the romantic authors created refering to the
catholic definition of death. That very definition explains death as the
leaving of soul (= seele) from the body. So: "seelenlos" means without a
soul anymore - in that very context!
In other words - refering to Wagner - Elsa should be dead in the end.
hope I could explain it
Uwe, Dresden/Germany
Falparsi
Mark Dillon wrote:
>
> I was always under the impression that at the end of Lohengrin Elsa
> dies until I saw it recently at the Opéra Bastille (where while not
> full of life at the end she is definitely alive) and read a review of
> a production (I think in the US) in Opera Magazine saying that at the
> end "Elsa was very much alive." So back I went to the libretto (fro
> the Kempe recording) and the ENO/Calder book on Lohengrin. No luck.
> The CD booklet uses three different formulae: in French (évanouier -
> to faint); in English ("falls lifeless to the ground"); in German,
> can't remember off-hand but it doesn't even mention her physical
> state. The ENO book also uses "lifeless".
>
> score (I've got Viking etcŠ). What did Wagner really want to happen to
> think about Opera producers modifying the composer's wishes in such a
> manner ?
>
In a letter a friend dated 5/30/1846, W. writes:
"atonement for Elsa's failing must involve her punishment, and rarely
can a failing have been followed by a more logical and therefore more
inevitable punishment than is expressed here in her separation from L.
Neither chastisement nor death (immediately) can be her punishment, any
other form of punishment would be arbitrary and arouse indignation, only
the punishment of separation (...) appears as utterly inevitable."
But this was before he composed the music so perhaps he changed his mind
when he came to the composition phase.
from the Spencer/Millington collection of letters.
Jim Dunphy
Olaf
Jacob Stevens wrote:
>
>-------
> What about Gutrune, for that matter? Spencer's translation (which usually
> seems to be very accurate) has: "Filled with shame, she turns away from
> Siegfried and, dying, bends over Gunther's body, where she remains
> motionless until the end."
>
> The booklet that goes with the recording I own, however, has the following
> stage instruction: "Fearfully she turns away from Siegfried and, dissolved
> in grief, bends over Gunther's body: she remains like this, motionless,
> until the end."
>
> Does anybody know what the full score says?
>
> Jacob
>
>
Soehne 1977 edition):
"Sie hat sich voll Scheu von Siegfried abgewendet, und beugt sich nun
ersterbend ueber Gunther's Leiche; so verbleibt sie regungslos bis zum
Schlusse."
Which is what Spencer translation that you quote above says, although
the word Scheu for me would be more like "awe" or "fear" than shame.
I am not quite sure what the difference is between "ersterben" and plain
"sterben" though.
--
// Olaf
eac...@aol.com
In article <32F6A7...@mailbox.swipnet.se>, Olaf wrote:
>> I am not quite sure what the difference is between "ersterben" and plain "sterben" though. <<
From Muret-Sanders German-English dictionary, vol.1, p.517: "ersterben. lit. 1. die, expire: jedes Leben erstirbt all life (gradually) dies. -2. vor Ehrfurcht [ersterben] fig. to be benumbed (or filled) with awe, to be awestruck (or awestricken). -3. fig. (von Geräusch, Gefühl, etc.) die (away), fade (away)"
From this, I guess that Wagner's instruction is that Gutrune should slowly cease to move, and in such a way as to express an awestruck emotion at what has been transpiring. --E.A.C.
eac...@aol.com
Many thanks to Uwe Schneider for his clarification of _entseelt_, especially as the word relates to Catholic theology.
I offer here the entries in Wahrig 1 (1968/72) and Muret-Sanders German-English dictionary, vol.1:
Wahrig, col.1100: "<Adj.> seelenlos, die Seele verloren habend, tot; [entseelt] zu Boden sinken" [<adj.> soulless, having lost one's soul, dead] etc. Interesting that Wahrig cites almost exactly Wagner's forumulation in his libretto: "Elsa sinkt entseelt in Gottfrieds Armen zu Boden." ["Elsa falls dead to the ground in Gottfried's arms."]
Muret-Sanders, p.493: "1. dead, lifeless, exanimate. -2. inanimate. -3. without soul, soulless, spiritless".
Therefore, to have the opera end with Elsa still standing, holding Lohengrin's horn, sword, and ring, is to violate Wagner's explicit direction as to how the work should be performed. --E.A.C.
eac...@aol.com
eac...@aol.com
Michael Libonati
Very illuminating discussion clinched by entseeltunpacking