Counter-tenor or French "haute-contre" or male Alto ?
marc verdon
Could anybody tell me the différence between these 3 voices :
Counter-tenor
"Haute-contre"
male Alto
?
I read that Alfredand Mark Deller were Counter-tenors in an English
publication and that they were "Haute-contres" in a French one !
What about Rene Jacobs (He is always deescribed as a Haute contre)
(Maybe because he is French...).
Is it a matter of language or is there a real distinction ? I read that
what caracterizes the male Alto was the lack of vibrato in the high
notes but I think this is not enough : I've never heard a counter-ut in
male voice with vibrato...
I read too that counter-tenors do not use the falsetto : What about the
others ??
Elsa Scammell
In article <3593C5D8...@polytechnique.fr>, marc....@polytechnique.fr (marc
verdon) wrote:
> Article: 96186 of rec.music.opera
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> From: marc verdon <marc....@polytechnique.fr>
> Newsgroups: rec.music.opera
> Subject: Counter-tenor or French "haute-contre" or male Alto ?
> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:01:29 +0200
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May I refer you to my close friend and associate Peter Giles and his book "The History and
technique of the Countertenor" (Scolar/Ashgate Press 1995 ? He discusses the technical side
of this voice and the tricky definitions thereof ?
Elsa Scammell
Church and operatic castrati (CD "The Last Castrato" (Opal)
Piotr Kaminski
Elsa Scammell a écrit:
The haute-contre and countertenor are terms describing high tenors (Lully's, Rameau's or
Purcell's) who, at the top, would use a "voix mixte" verging on the falsetto. Neither Deller
nor Jacobs are countertenors or haute-contres, they're falsetto singers with some individual
particularities, male altos indeed. The term has been 'historically confiscated' by the
contemporary male altos, who can be damned good sometimes, but are not and never have been
countertenors or haute-contres.
PK
Elsa Scammell
In article <3594EE71...@imaginet.fr>, wapi...@imaginet.fr (Piotr Kaminski) wrote:
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> From: Piotr Kaminski <wapi...@imaginet.fr>
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> Subject: Re: Counter-tenor or French "haute-contre" or male Alto ?
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It's a subject of much debate and fine lines of defintion; it all depends on your point of view;
which historic explanation meets your expectations, and so on. There's a lot of prejudice
included in these arguments.
I am currently listening (and watching) Andreas Scholl live from Glyndebourne, in Handel's
"Rodelinda." Where would you place *him* ?
Elsa Scammell
Kate Brown
In article <3593C5D8...@polytechnique.fr>, marc verdon
<marc....@polytechnique.fr> writes
>Could anybody tell me the différence between these 3 voices :
>
>Counter-tenor
>"Haute-contre"
>male Alto
>
>I read that Alfredand Mark Deller were Counter-tenors in an English
>publication and that they were "Haute-contres" in a French one !
>What about Rene Jacobs (He is always deescribed as a Haute contre)
>(Maybe because he is French...).
There's a confusion here that's due to the way the use of voices has
changed in the last three or four hundred years.
Simply (apologies if this is all perfectly familiar): the term 'tenor'
goes back to the middle ages, and denotes the voice that 'held' (tenere)
the plainchant melody. Below that there was a bass (literally
'lowered') voice and above it an alto (literally 'raised') and above
that the soprano ('over all').
After the demise of the castrati, the only adult male voices singing
above the tenor range tended to be in church choirs, with which England
was and is (still, just) very well endowed. They were/are called altos,
and mostly cultivated a non-operatic tone which blended well in the
choir. When Alfred Deller began to develop a serious solo voice, and to
sing opera, it was thought that the term 'alto' had too strictly
ecclesiastical a connotation (and was also unisex), and another - more
macho (?:-)) - term was needed. Since the voice was, as it were, next
up from the tenor, the term 'counter-tenor' was used to denote the next
range, on the model of contrabass or contralto. In the course of time,
Alfred being the first, the term was duly translated into French (and
German and Italian), to describe these alto singers who are mostly
singing falsetto.
However, this obscures its earlier use as a term for a very high tenor
voice. The nineteenth century saw not only the demise of the castrato
but the development of the tenor voice to take the chest range right up
to top A's and beyond with only a little mixture of head voice.
It's very clear when you look at baroque opera manuscripts that there
were two types of tenors - those singing a range that we would still
call tenor, notated in a clef with middle C on the fourth line up (c4),
and those singing in a clef with middle C on the third line (c3), a clef
often called 'alto'.
However, these c3 roles (lots of them in seventeenth century stuff) are
too low for the average present day male alto/counter tenor. They sit
very awkwardly for most tenors too, which is why singers who can manage
the high tessitura without a gear-change between the ranges are very
much in demand, particularly for the French repertoire which is so rich
in these roles - Jean-Pierre Fouchecourt comes to mind, for example.
Most present day counter tenors have a distinct gear change from their
alto falsetto range into the tenor/baritone range that corresponds with
their speaking voices. Having said that, I've just heard Andreas Scholl
sing an astonishingly good Bertarido (Rodelinda) at Glyndebourne, with
an amazing messa di voce and cadenzas going right down into a tenor
range without a break - gorgeous.
I apologise for the generalisations - what I'm trying to say is that the
term 'counter tenor' denoted a very high tenor in the baroque period,
but that this term lost its significance in the nineteenth century, and
was therefore available to take on a new meaning in the twentieth.
As for vibrato... some have it and some don't, just like any other
voice.
--
Kate B
London
Elsa Scammell
In article <MlT80PA5...@cockaigne.demon.co.uk>,
l'amfip...@cockaigne.demon.co.uk (Kate Brown) wrote:
> Article: 96469 of rec.music.opera
> From: Kate Brown <l'amfip...@cockaigne.demon.co.uk>
> Newsgroups: rec.music.opera
> Subject: Re: Counter-tenor or French "haute-contre" or male Alto ?
> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:40:41 +0100
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Very much my opinion, too and Peter Giles's, in essence. I am glad you enjoyed Scholl and
"Rodelinda"; I recorded it from Channel 4. How about the up-and-coming group of male
sopranos ?
Elsa Scammell
Church and operatic castrati.
unidentified
Are you saying that male alto are singing in falsetto? and how about male soprano then?
Xise
Usually all counter-tenors are singing falsetto. They are imitating the
castrati but obviously faking it. Male altos are usually deeper natural
voices, like bass or baritone and the higher the falsetto, the higher the
natural voice, so a soprano would in reality be a tenor.
The same goes for women. Some women, 'specially heavy smokers can produce a
male sound. This is a chest, deteriorated, flat voice with no harmonics.
Regards,
Ximena
Kate Brown
In article <35994245...@noaddress.com>, dated Wed, 1 Jul 1998,
unidentified <bou...@noaddress.com> wrote
>Are you saying that male alto are singing in falsetto? and how about male
>soprano then?
>
--
Kate B
London
HorizonBay
I browsed and read these matters with interest and will share with you why I
did. Some months ago i was comissioned to write a setting of three John Milton
songs for coutner-tenor and harpsichord. I phoned the intended performers and
was told the range for the particular voice was A below the staff to f top
line,- all treble, like a mezzo-soprano. I wrote the commission and it was
performed and quite a success, I'm pleased to say. But then when another
counter-tenor looked at it he was quite upset, it being a full minor third too
high for him. Since then have considered an alternate transposed version, but
have learned with a vengeance that male alto, male soprano, haute-contre, etc.
are quite different.
My actual name is Arnold Rosner, and I'd be curious as to whether anyone in
this group has heard of any of my music. there are 2 operas--- but they are
unperformed...
sean.robert...@gmail.com
Do you have any resource recommendations? Much of what you said is common academic knowledge, but this subject is one with various opinions and not enough cemented scholarly certainty.
Thanks,
Sean