gay opera singers
F R
AnMeinKlav
would be considered opera "stars"?>>
Among current well-known singers, the soprano Patricia Racette is quite open
about her relationship with mezzo Beth Clayton. They were even profiled in the
Advocate a while back.
jszostaksr
business. Even as you ask "are/were"...present/past...it's still none of
your business. And what kind of person would even be interested in knowing
the answer to this question?
If you're so inclined...go to a gay establishment and chat with some of the
people who might know...but not here please. It could merely serve to
tarnish a number of people's reputations/memories.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"F R" <essp...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6479-402...@storefull-3318.bay.webtv.net...
while opera has a lot of fans who are gay, are/were there many gays who
would be considered opera "stars"?
frank
comes...@hotmail.com
Frank's question seems perfectly legitimate to me. It's unlikely that
anyone here is going to out anybody, and would only be verifying those
singers who have already let their status be known. Being public
knowledge, it would be anybody's business who cared to know.
As for what kind of person would be interested in this knowledge, well,
I'll tell you who: gay people, who, as a people, are in need of
successful and attractive role models. What's the old saying, "unless
one is identified as gay, people will assume he is straight." I hate to
say it, but your attitude almost sounds classically bigoted: if you're
talented, attractive and before the public, you must be straight;
otherwise you don't really exist, just get in the closet and stay there.
As for going to a *gay establishment* to discuss the matter, let's face
it, this *is*, to a considerable extent, a gay establishment. In other
words, a number of knowledgeable, erudite people here are gay, surprise
surprise. (And if you took out all the gay people that are involved with
theatre, there would be no theatre.)
I frankly find it sad to realize that in the 21st century, at a ng that
one would assume to be comprised of civilized and enlightened
individuals, there would be a mindset that still looks upon being gay as
something which, if known, would "tarnish" someone's
reputation/memories.
Sorry if I offend, you no doubt meant well; but I'm a bit shocked by
your view.
~ Roer
jszostaksr
decades of being in the professional performing arts...I've become, equally,
quite comfortable with my gay friends as I am with my straight
ones...probably even more so as I find most of the gay people I personally
consider to be my friends to be far less prejudicial or condemning of others
without knowing all the facts.
I know a number of 'bi's' and 'gays' who...for whatever there personal
reasons are...don't wish to be known as gay...and in fact not even broach
that subject in private groups let alone in any public forum. And it is to
the "It's unlikely that anyone here is going to out anybody, and would only
be verifying those singers who have already let their status be known."
statement of yours that I address my worries.
I most sincerely try respect the personal privacy of others...and have no
wish to inflict possible embarrassment, or worse, to them. It is for this
reason...and this reason only...that I continue to maintain that one's
sexual preference is nobody's business unless brought up by the individuals
themselves. This is of great concern to me as I know quite a number of such
individuals...and I don't want them hurt.
Sure...you make your point correctly re. discussing ONLY "those singers who
have already let their status be known."...but can we REALLY be sure that
would be the limitation? Consider some of the really ignorant and terribly
mannered RMO posters who've reared their ugly heads once too often. With
respect, I hope I clarified my position to you.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<comes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:20257-402...@storefull-3232.bay.webtv.net...
F R
jszostaksr
to 'comescoglio'.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"F R" <essp...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6480-402...@storefull-3318.bay.webtv.net...
john e. snip
------FR: That's not only a totally inappropriate question...it's none
of your
business. Even as you ask "are/were"...present/past...it's still none of
your business. And what kind of person would even be interested in
knowing the answer to this question?
If you're so inclined...go to a gay establishment and chat with some of
the people who might know...but not here please. It could merely serve
to tarnish a number of people's reputations/memories.
Jon
--------------------------------------------
geez jon. it was a simple question. are you saying that only gays know
or wish to discuss who is gay? we have talked about african-american
opera singers, jewish opera singers, hispanic opera singers, so why not
gay opera singers?
and lol to your implication that i am trying to "out" any singer who is
gay. it's just a curiosity question nothing more. you have read into
this and reacted far deeper than my intention when i asked it.
frank
Stefan
> FR: That's not only a totally inappropriate question...it's none of your
> business. Even as you ask "are/were"...present/past...it's still none of
> your business. And what kind of person would even be interested in knowing
> the answer to this question?
>
> If you're so inclined...go to a gay establishment and chat with some of the
> people who might know...but not here please. It could merely serve to
> tarnish a number of people's reputations/memories.
>
>
> Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
>
Excuse me? And who made you the judge as to what is appropriate and
what isn't. Given some of the crap that goes on here, I see nothing
wrong with asking the question - it was an honest one. But yes, there
may be other places to get more information. And by the way, just
what do you mean "tarnish a number of people's reputations/memories."
Excuse me but you need to come out of the dark ages -- being a lesbian
or gay man is not something to be ashamed of - PERIOD! I'm proud to
be a gay man and while I don't push my orientation on others, I don't
hide it nor do I pretent to be something I am not.
Operatunenity
>of your
>business.
It's not a problem for those who are openly gay or straight with no
homophibia, a problem for those who are not openly gay, or straight with
homophobia.
jszostaksr
1:11am...Operatuneity wrote at 1:47. I wrote a response to the first two
people who replied to my initial posting at 11:40pm well over an hour from
your postings...good grief...doesn't anyone take time to read what's posted
prior to making statements in rebuttal?
Or, am I incorrect of my basic assumption that "most of the gay people I
personally consider to be my friends to be far less prejudicial or
condemning of others without knowing all the facts."...but then
again...neither of you are "my friends" for having not met.
I thought I had made my position very, very clear. Or do you rather see
only what you want see? I couldn't possibly be any clearer in my
meaning...or am I writing in a language too foreign for you to understand.
My position stands as is...with my explanations...my genuine feelings for my
friends and former colleagues...if you don't see that...then it's of no
value clarifying my position any further. If you prefer to continue in that
direction...do so...but more's the pity.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Stefan" <gsl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:79c4227b.04020...@posting.google.com...
NBPalmer1
>the answer to this question?
I have no idea, particularly as it seems to me that a person's sexuality, their
religion, their politics, their financial situation - all these aspects of life
are one's which most people would prefer to keep private....
Regards, Nick
shortspark
this kind of life style. It's none of my business and does not concern
me. Nor do I know if this is an appropriate topic to discuss here. But
I do know this - there has never been a great opera singer who was gay
(at least who actually came out to say so). To be "great" needs more
than a voice, the public must bestow greatness.
I say this because many years ago I went to school in Rochester, NY.
For my first two years of college I maintained an apartment very close
to the Eastman School of Music. Although I did not attend that school I
became friendly with many of its students who frequented the same
neighborhood bars as I did. That and the fact I loved opera and
classical music gave us a common interest.
Back in the '60s gays were not as open as today of course but I knew
some of these people were gay and they finally told me so. They also
said they would never make it "big" because of their sexual orientation.
Much has changed since then but I'm sure there is still some sort of
discrimination against those singers who come out. Perhaps not for
chorus or secondary singers but against those with star quality. If you
are handicap there is no problem if you are good enough but I suspect
you are held back if you are gay.
It seems to follow the pattern of what people think rather than what
they hear. Much as was the case with the very fine tenor Giacomo
Aragall when it was discovered he had to seek mental help after a
breakdown. If the story I heard is true, his career stalled after that
although he was cured and the voice was still in tact. A prima donna
might get away with this kind of problem but for some reason not a
tenor.
People were not too concerned about Rock Hudson making love to Doris Day
in the movies. So I cannot understand why people would be put off at
hearing a Manrico or Canio who was gay, especially if it were a great
voice, but I suppose there are people like that.
shortspark
Premiereopera
>geez jon. it was a simple question. are you saying that only gays know
>or wish to discuss who is gay? we have talked about african-american
>opera singers, jewish opera singers, hispanic opera singers
Yes, but the one person who brought up the above discussions was almost always
drakejake. Are you his disciple??
Inquiring minds want to know.
Ed
Blackguard
> Stefan: You wrote this...according to the post time...at
> 1:11am...Operatuneity wrote at 1:47. I wrote a response to the first two
> people who replied to my initial posting at 11:40pm well over an hour from
> your postings...good grief...doesn't anyone take time to read what's
posted
> prior to making statements in rebuttal?
>
> Or, am I incorrect of my basic assumption that "most of the gay people I
> personally consider to be my friends to be far less prejudicial or
> condemning of others without knowing all the facts."...but then
> again...neither of you are "my friends" for having not met.
>
> I thought I had made my position very, very clear. Or do you rather see
> only what you want see? I couldn't possibly be any clearer in my
> meaning...or am I writing in a language too foreign for you to understand.
>
> My position stands as is...with my explanations...my genuine feelings for
my
> friends and former colleagues...if you don't see that...then it's of no
> value clarifying my position any further. If you prefer to continue in
that
> direction...do so...but more's the pity.
>
> Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
>
Are there any famous gay people whose names you would care to drop?
Telly
Blackguard
"shortspark" <mar...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26450-40...@storefull-3198.bay.webtv.net...
> I don't know too many gays and don't know or care to know much about
> this kind of life style. It's none of my business and does not concern
> me. Nor do I know if this is an appropriate topic to discuss here. But
> I do know this - there has never been a great opera singer who was gay
> (at least who actually came out to say so). To be "great" needs more
> than a voice, the public must bestow greatness.
>
What about Enrico Caruso? Didn't he used to hang out in Central Park?
Telly
jszostaksr
circumstances. I sang with the LOC for some decades in the regular
chorus...have a great many close friends who are gay...and many who are
not...there seemed never to be any problem with that on ANY level from
colleagues to management. But except for maybe 3 or 4 people, who confided
in me their sexual preference...and who shall remain forever nameless from
me...I knew of no big names who were openly gay and admitted it and didn't
care one way or the other what people thought. But there are some...and it
is those friends and colleagues whose wishes I don't wish to ignore that
makes my reply.
I simply don't trust some of the small minded, hate-mongers whose postings
I've read here to not make a huge issue with those people and perhaps, just
perhaps, cause them a great deal of personal embarrassment. My interest is
strictly in their talent, personality and musicianship NOT their individual
private lives...which is there business alone. If that person 'come out'
and isn't bothered by his orientation...then I say 'bravo'...but there are
lot of small minds out there.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"shortspark" <mar...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26450-40...@storefull-3198.bay.webtv.net...
Leonard Tillman
>People were not too concerned about Rock
> Hudson making love to Doris Day in the
> movies. So I cannot understand why people
> would be put off at hearing a Manrico or
> Canio who was gay, especially if it were a
> great voice, but I suppose there are people
> like that.
In Hudson's case, though, his sexual orientation was IIRC unknown to
his public at the time his films with Doris Day and others appeared and
were at their heights of popularity. Ergo, his image as a "man's man"
was unaffected. The gayness was gossiped about in the late '60s onward,
but wasn't really disclosed until nearly - and particularly after - his
death. This was seemingly in accordance with his expressed wishes,
mentioned in a biography published shortly afterwards .
The cruelest and most juvenile remarks were made around that time,
reflecting infinitely more upon the idle babblers than the "butt" of
their inspired witticisms. At least one even expressed anger at Hudson
for "disappointing him", in that this fan had always idolized him as a
"real man", but at that point (after said idol's death) felt "betrayed",
somehow.
Fair? Of course not, but it's a matter of people's
emotionally-influenced perceptions intertwined with judgmental thoughts
that are part of their supposed reality.
> shortspark
Leonard Tillman
"Love is not blind - it sees more, not less. But because it sees more,
it is willing to see less."
-- Rabbi Julins Gordon
Stefan
reputations/memories.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
=======================
Okay, I was angry when I read your post but your last comment above
was what really sent me through the roof. I still stand by what I
said. As to the posting -- when I did it there were only 3, with your
first remarks being the last. I don't know why the timing came out
the way it did and I appeared as #9 instead of #4.
Blackguard
> Shortspark: Yes...we, coincidentally, share pretty much similar
> circumstances. I sang with the LOC for some decades in the regular
> chorus...have a great many close friends who are gay...and many who are
> not...>
How many friends, in the aggregate, would you say you have?
Telly
jszostaksr
remark...because taken out of context it doesn't fully represent what I was
trying to say. Now that you've (hopefully) read ALL of my posting re. this
thread...I hope you can see my side of the issue.
I try to remain loyal to my friends and those whom I respect...and I'm
really quite protective of those who may, just may, be hurt or offended by
some clod with not sensitivity to one's right to personal privacy or
feelings...not to mention the potential damage to their career or public
image.
No matter to what degree...prejudice is wrong, hateful and in the end quite
self-destructive. And that destruction usually occurs at a very deep level
of
one's being...it can be soul shattering. When I see that level of prejudice
and down-right hate...I'm really taken aback to it's intensity...I find it
very frightening...and quite frankly, (to use a phrase) I wouldn't wish that
on my worse enemy. Unfortunately...I've witnessed such hatred. Terrible!
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Stefan" <gsl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:79c4227b.04020...@posting.google.com...
Drakejake
>always
>drakejake. Are you his disciple??
>Inquiring minds want to know.
>
>Ed
>
Will your lying never stop?
JD
REG
he's very much out. There are a number of major singers who are gay or
lesbian, I just assume you either don't know of them in that capacity, or
perhaps our list differs. Many are well-known to be gay or lesbian. If your
point is that entertainers in general, in past generations, didn't make
their sexuality known if it wasn't "straight", that's probably largely
true....but your language almost suggests that you think that gayness and
greatness don't go together (great, as in great achievement of ability)...I
don't think that's what you really mean.
"shortspark" <mar...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26450-40...@storefull-3198.bay.webtv.net...
REG
By the way, did you know Shortspark in Rochester?
"Blackguard" <telr...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:PGrVb.25635$uS3....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
REG
"NBPalmer1" <nbpa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040208064253...@mb-m12.aol.com...
AnMeinKlav
he's very much out. There are a number of major singers who are gay or
lesbian, I just assume you either don't know of them in that capacity, or
perhaps our list differs. Many are well-known to be gay or lesbian.>>
That's the only reason why I mentioned Racette. Consenting to be profiled in a
major gay/lesbian newsmagazine, with a photo of herself and her partner,
suggests that she's comfortable with her sexuality. I don't see the general
knowledge of it hurting her career, either.
Premiereopera
>From: drak...@aol.com (Drakejake)
>Date: 2/8/04 11:42 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20040208114233...@mb-m04.aol.com>
It's never started, JD. What about your???
Ed
alex
there might be a good reason why people have not read your
responses--I am unable to subscribe to a news server and so must rely
on www.dejanews.com which only updates new posts 3-9 hours after being
posted.
-alex
"jszostaksr" <jszostak...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<gwmVb.204157$nt4.976327@attbi_s51>...
David7Gable
>in the movies.
It was assumed that Rock Hudson was gay. When Hudson was outed as his health
declined as he was dying of AIDS, the state of Illinois pulled a tourism
campaign filmed with Hudson: suddenly the famous Illinois native was
considered a liability.
-david gable
Steve Silverman
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:iFtVb.132672$cM1.24...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> There'll always be an England!
Not if Brussels has anything to do with it.
Steve Silverman
jszostaksr
standards...primarily their artistic abilities.
You assume correctly I in no way meant to suggest that "gayness and
greatness don't go together".
I'll say it again...I'm very protective (right or wrong) of my friends and
colleagues...of their feelings and any problems or embarrassment which may
be caused by short-sighted comments of gossip. In this I cannot be more
clear.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mDtVb.132670$cM1.24...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
dtritter
imitation is the sincerest form of ..............arggggghhh...acid reflux.!
dft
Mark D Lew
<jszostak...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Stefan: You wrote this...according to the post time...at
> 1:11am...Operatuneity wrote at 1:47. I wrote a response to the first two
> people who replied to my initial posting at 11:40pm well over an hour from
> your postings...good grief...doesn't anyone take time to read what's posted
> prior to making statements in rebuttal?
There are several reasons why your 11:40 pm post might not have been
available to someone writing at 1:11 am or 1:47 am.
First of all, newsgroup posts propagate to servers at different rates.
Although an hour is usually enough time for a post to reach any major
server, it's by no means guaranteed. For a post to be delayed for an
hour or two is not all that rare, particularly if that server is
temporarily shut down for a service problem or is temporarily blocking
traffic due to an automated spam defense.
Second, if the reader is reading the newsgroup through a website like
Google or Dejanews, there will routinely be a lag of a few hours before
the messages are posted.
Finally, there are several reasons why the reader might be writing an
hour or two after having downloaded the headers. Many newsreading
applications do not download headers on the fly. If you collect all
the current posts when you log in, and you spend an hour reading
through them (perhaps you get interrupted by something else), an hour
will have gone by before you get to the thread at the bottom of the
list. Also, some users with slow connections will use a scheme which
downloads all the posts at once in background, so that they can be
viewed later while offline.
In other words, it's unreasonable to use the time stamps on a post as
an indicator of when the post becomes available to any particular
reader. There's no reason to assume that when Stefan and Operatuneity
were writing they were able to see your "earlier" response to
Comescoglio.
mdl
REG
"Steve Silverman" <ssil...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:c06072$ao3$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
AnMeinKlav wrote:
>
> <<are/were there many gays who
> would be considered opera "stars"?>>
>
> Among current well-known singers, the soprano Patricia Racette is quite open
> about her relationship with mezzo Beth Clayton. They were even profiled in the
> Advocate a while back.
Also in Opera News (although that was more a portrait of Racette). I'm
sure there were many in the past, too - but since openness on the
subject is comparatively new, and being gay has often been considered a
crime, how can anyone know for sure? (And so long as they SING well,
who gives a damn?)
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
comes...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Jon, I ordinarily agree with your remarks, but this time I cannot.
> Frank's question seems perfectly legitimate to me. It's unlikely that
> anyone here is going to out anybody, and would only be verifying those
> singers who have already let their status be known. Being public
> knowledge, it would be anybody's business who cared to know.
> As for what kind of person would be interested in this knowledge, well,
> I'll tell you who: gay people, who, as a people, are in need of
> successful and attractive role models. What's the old saying, "unless
> one is identified as gay, people will assume he is straight." I hate to
> say it, but your attitude almost sounds classically bigoted: if you're
> talented, attractive and before the public, you must be straight;
> otherwise you don't really exist, just get in the closet and stay there.
> As for going to a *gay establishment* to discuss the matter, let's face
> it, this *is*, to a considerable extent, a gay establishment. In other
> words, a number of knowledgeable, erudite people here are gay, surprise
> surprise. (And if you took out all the gay people that are involved with
> theatre, there would be no theatre.)
> I frankly find it sad to realize that in the 21st century, at a ng that
> one would assume to be comprised of civilized and enlightened
> individuals, there would be a mindset that still looks upon being gay as
> something which, if known, would "tarnish" someone's
> reputation/memories.
> Sorry if I offend, you no doubt meant well; but I'm a bit shocked by
> your view.
What you say is true, of course - however posts like the one that began
this thread can easily be interpreted as a matter of prurient interest
in irrelevant aspects of a singer's life. "Irrelevant" to the
opera-going public, at any rate. Anyone who has ever been involved with
the arts knows that a great many artistic people are gay, but their
sexuality has little to do with their talents as artists, so is of no
importance to most of us. (Unless we have the misfortune to bestow our
affections inappropriately - in which case it matters a great deal!) If
a singer CHOOSES to make his/her sexual preferences known, fine -
otherwise, the subject should never arise.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
jszostaksr wrote:
>
> Stefan: You wrote this...according to the post time...at
> 1:11am...Operatuneity wrote at 1:47. I wrote a response to the first two
> people who replied to my initial posting at 11:40pm well over an hour from
> your postings...good grief...doesn't anyone take time to read what's posted
> prior to making statements in rebuttal?
Frequently not - I think most of us reply to posts as we read them
(which may be long after they were written, but before we've seen
subsequent posts). Also, you cannot always rely upon the times shown -
I think those have something to do with the time your particular
news-server received them.
We had one idiot on these newsgroups who insisted that my posts were
made in the wee, small hours of the morning, because that was how his
(WebTV) server presented them to him. (He even called me a liar when I
denied it.) I can assure you, I keep "normal" hours, work the hours
usual to a public accounting office, and do not have newsgroup access on
my office computer. Whatever the times shown on someone else's screen,
my posts are usually between seven and eight AM or in the evening, well
before midnight.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
shortspark wrote:
>
> Back in the '60s gays were not as open as today of course but I knew
> some of these people were gay and they finally told me so. They also
> said they would never make it "big" because of their sexual orientation.
That sounds more like a "cop out" than verifiable truth! It's much
easier to deceive oneself than to face the fact that one just doesn't
have that combination of talent, dedication and drive that makes success
possible (but NEVER certain). Sure, a lot of factors enter into "making
it big", but considering the sexual orientation of a great many
directors, being gay should not present much of an obstacle if a singer
has the other requisites.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Blackguard wrote:
>
> > My position stands as is...with my explanations...my genuine feelings for
> my
> > friends and former colleagues...if you don't see that...then it's of no
> > value clarifying my position any further. If you prefer to continue in
> that
> > direction...do so...but more's the pity.
> >
> > Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
> >
>
> Are there any famous gay people whose names you would care to drop?
> Telly
I think the poster's whole point was that he thinks those "famous gay
people" should be allowed the option of making themselves known or not -
as THEY (not some prurient idiots on a newsgroup) choose.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Leonard Tillman wrote:
>
> >People were not too concerned about Rock
> > Hudson making love to Doris Day in the
> > movies. So I cannot understand why people
> > would be put off at hearing a Manrico or
> > Canio who was gay, especially if it were a
> > great voice, but I suppose there are people
> > like that.
>
> In Hudson's case, though, his sexual orientation was IIRC unknown to
> his public at the time his films with Doris Day and others appeared and
> were at their heights of popularity.
That depends upon how you define his "public" - it was a pretty open
"secret" to almost anyone in Hollywood, even people not directly
involved in the movie industry. (And a frequent topic for discussion
among anyone who worked in it - including cameramen, grips, and script
girls.)
jszostaksr
posts between 3-9 hours after being posted. Really? Good grief that seems
like an awful lot of lead time. I have Comcast and post immediately at any
time of the day I wish...which (as in this case) was very late at night and
early the next morning (bit of insomnia).
So it's not unlike a bizarre sort of 'phone tag' were everyone keeps getting
the answering machine but not the party they're calling.
I certainly hope by now all of my posts are available to you all and that
you've read what it is I had to say....and WHY. It seems odd that such a
technical inefficiency should cause such angst and frustration.
But all is OK now...yes? May we continue on the subject at hand or would
anyone else like to throw a beer bottle at me?
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"alex" <lundqv...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45982911.04020...@posting.google.com...
REG
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evgmso...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:4026C366...@earthlink.net...
jszostaksr
Now to all involved-
If the thread limits itself strictly to those artists who have IN FACT 'come
out'...well then...go ahead what the hell can I say about that. Just don't
start spilling the beans or what you may by hearsay deem to be fact...that
could be embarrassing or damaging to someone and THAT'S NOT forgivable.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evgmso...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:4026C1F7...@earthlink.net...
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Considerably more than you do, if the quality of your posts are any
indication of your personality!
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
REG wrote:
>
> I don't think David Daniels is "great", but he's certainly popular now, and
> he's very much out. There are a number of major singers who are gay or
> lesbian, I just assume you either don't know of them in that capacity, or
> perhaps our list differs. Many are well-known to be gay or lesbian. If your
> point is that entertainers in general, in past generations, didn't make
> their sexuality known if it wasn't "straight", that's probably largely
> true....but your language almost suggests that you think that gayness and
> greatness don't go together (great, as in great achievement of ability)...I
> don't think that's what you really mean.
I think you're being too charitable, REG - remembering some of his/her
previous posts, I'd assume "shortspark" meant exactly what he/she said -
it's one of the poster's names her that seems to always take the bigot's
point of view.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Don't forget the article/interview in Opera News (which has no
gay/lesbian connection SFAIK)! It may not have spelled the facts out in
letters of fire, but it was certainly clear and open about the
relationship between the two women (and also included a picture of them
together).
REG
Belgian beers are unfiltered, hard to get here, but not impossible. I would
certainly be reluctant to throw one at you, since after you opened it the
damn beer would spray all over the place.
"jszostaksr" <jszostak...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:uQzVb.7084$QA2.15976@attbi_s52...
jszostaksr
Mexican 'Negro Modelo'...exquisite with a nice wine-like finish. So as they
say in 'Bill Budd' (this is still an opera NG...yes?) heave away, heave away
ho!
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nSzVb.134515$cM1.24...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Richard Loeb
REG
"Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:5oOdnYT9iI3...@comcast.com...
A. Brain
> AnMeinKlav wrote:
> >
> > <<I don't think David Daniels is "great", but he's certainly popular
now, and
> > he's very much out. There are a number of major singers who are gay
or
> > lesbian, I just assume you either don't know of them in that
capacity, or
> > perhaps our list differs. Many are well-known to be gay or
lesbian.>>
> >
I'm not sure there are that many; otherwise, probably more would be
mentioned here. Daniels, Racette, Clayton....
> > That's the only reason why I mentioned Racette. Consenting to be
profiled in a
> > major gay/lesbian newsmagazine, with a photo of herself and her
partner,
> > suggests that she's comfortable with her sexuality. I don't see the
general
> > knowledge of it hurting her career, either.
I think there is a double-standard. It probably does not
apply in the world of classical music, but surely in the world of
popular music and in films, lesbianism is trendy and glamorous.
And if you turn on a regular "mainstream" TV porn channel, about
70% of what is portrayed there is lesbian sex.
New York Magazine recently had a cover article about
how chic lesbians are these days.
>
> Don't forget the article/interview in Opera News (which has no
> gay/lesbian connection SFAIK)! It may not have spelled the facts out
in
> letters of fire, but it was certainly clear and open about the
> relationship between the two women (and also included a picture of
them
> together).
As a fan of both Clayton and Racette, I have wished for them to
appear more often together on stage. Clayton would have been a natural
for Siebel in the recent LOC Faust with Racette as Marguerite,
for example. I have only one experience seeing both--in Santa
Fe's Eugene Onegin a couple of years ago.
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evgmso...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:4026C58E...@earthlink.net...
>
Keybedder
appear more often together on stage. Clayton would have been a natural
for Siebel in the recent LOC Faust with Racette as Marguerite,
for example. I have only one experience seeing both--in Santa
Fe's Eugene Onegin a couple of years ago.>>
They also both appeared in Houston Grand Opera's premiere production of
Carlisle Floyd's "Cold Sassy Tree" a couple of years ago.
My guess is that they are sensitive to appearances of "nepotism" and perhaps
even make a point of not performing together too often.
A. Brain
news:20040208194337...@mb-m19.aol.com...
Maybe this is a different double standard that does apply in classical
music. I don't recall too many complaints about Sutherland/Bonynge,
Argerich/Dutoit, and many other couples who performed together..
I had forgotten about "Cold Sassy Tree".
Rubberband Girl
"AnMeinKlav" <anmei...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040208115101...@mb-m05.aol.com...
> <<I don't think David Daniels is "great", but he's certainly popular now,
and
> he's very much out. There are a number of major singers who are gay or
> lesbian, I just assume you either don't know of them in that capacity, or
> perhaps our list differs. Many are well-known to be gay or lesbian.>>
>
in a
> major gay/lesbian newsmagazine, with a photo of herself and her partner,
> suggests that she's comfortable with her sexuality. I don't see the
general
> knowledge of it hurting her career, either.
The way I see it, big deal. She's a very fine soprano and I'd go to hear her
regardless of her sexual preference. Admittedly the knowledge of a person's
homosexuality can make certain love duets amusing... but other than that,
who cares? It's not important.
Rubberband Girl
Rubberband Girl
"A. Brain" <abr...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
news:VOAVb.1580$WI7...@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
Not to mention Mr and Mrs Alagna.
Rubberband Girl (who finds Mr Alagna annoying and wishes his wife would do
more without him)
>
>
F R
shortspark
What the hell are you talking about? Just where do you get the notion
that I'm "one of those poster's who always seems to take the bigots
point of view"? I can't imagine what I've ever said that would give you
that impression so I can only assume you have me confused with someone
else.
Your idea could not have come from my post on this topic for sure. Read
it - all of it. Then tell me if that is the work of a bigot. Perhaps
the words were not placed in proper order but the message sent is quite
clear. When I said no "great" opera singer was ever gay I qualified it
by saying at least those that said they were gay. No way did I mean
that a gay was incapable of greatness because of his/her sexual
orientation. But that "greatness" is bestowed by the public.
Daniels, Racette and Clayton (the only gay singers identified in this
thread) are good but not "great" singers and are not by a considerable
margin. You know who the great ones are and were and those are the ones
I was talking about. Lets look at a few examples.
Was Tebaldi or Tucker gay? How about Corelli or Sutherland? Now we're
talking "great" and there is little debate among opera aficionados on
that point. You know, Franco never had kids and Renata never married
as far as I know. So is it a possibility? I suppose there is one chance
in a million that they were but I would be willing to bet a whole lot of
money that they were not. One never knows for sure unless you actually
know the person or witnessed an act. And I admit the world is full of
surprises. However, one thing is for sure - none of the singers above
(if indeed they were gay), nor any other "great" opera singer, ever came
out.
And what was your point about people stating that their sexual
orientation would keep them back was only an excuse they used in lieu of
their limitations? I recall one student, a black tenor, talking to me
about his feelings of not being able to make it "big" because of his
sexual orientation (BTW, his race was never mentioned). Although I
suppose it is possible that some might use it as a crutch, the reasoning
itself is not necessarily wrong.
shortspark
==================================
(EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque))
jszostaksr
ago...being gay could cause certain problems in one's career...then again,
maybe not. Fifty years ago it would be considered a stigma...nowadays we
merely laugh at the word 'stigma'...a word usually bandied about by
frustrated puritanical types.
Taking the lead from 'Don Basilio'...a rumor starts as a whisper and ends up
sounding like a cannon explosion. Unfortunately there are also far too many
'loose cannons' around starting whisper that usually end by blowing up in
their faces...BUT...it could cause embarrassment, nowadays, more than a
career problem. But as I said before...there a lot of small minds out
there...starting whispers that turn into full-blown lies. Which is why I
urged caution...and that this thread go on...only if the discussion focuses
in on openly, self-admitted gay artists...at that juncture no damage or
embarrassment could occur.
For awhile, in England, maybe 30 or so years ago...the operatic scene was
nearly run exclusively by gay people and something of a reverse prejudice
seemed to dominate that scene...where one was better off being gay than not.
Today all of those types of issues have been rendered virtually moot...and,
indeed, laughable. But it's still best to allow people to 'out' themselves
and not have it done for you by gossip or innuendo.
Live and learn my boy...we have to at various times in our lives...and just
remember that EVERYONE at one time in their life was also a 'novice'...and
even a touch of naiveté can be charming if not carried too far.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"F R" <essp...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27015-40...@storefull-3312.bay.webtv.net...
as ths one who initiated this thread, i want to make my "motives" very
clear.
i am an opera novice and when i start a topic, they are always what i
have considered generic and broad sweeping. i have recently asked about
the largest outdoor crowd to see an opera, what is the best selling
complete opera of all time,, opera singers in non-musical films. i
started all those and started this one in the same spirit of gathering
information and considered it a curiosity like the topics i just
mentioned.
there was no prurient interest nor underlying motive, i can assure you.
i am surprised that if in fact a renowned opera singer was gay it
would harm his/her career in any way. but as i said, i am an opera
novice and maybe naive too.
frank
AnMeinKlav
novice and maybe naive too>>
Given that homosexuality and gay rights are such a divisive issue in America at
the moment, your equating this particular question with your other, innocuous
queries is indeed naive, IMO.
Jack Hamilton
>It could merely serve to tarnish a number of people's
>reputations/memories.
It wouldn't tarnish their reputations as far as I'm concerned.
==
Jack Hamilton
j...@acm.org
==
In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted comfort and security.
And in the end, they lost it all - freedom, comfort and security.
Edward Gibbons
REG
thought that you were saying that the public approval issue made it
impossible for singers to be gay and "great", because to be "great" you
needed a wide audience appeal, and you weren't (and maybe still won't) have
that if you're gay...at least in your view.
But then you go on to talk about a few very great singers and you seem to
suggest that there's something about superior ability in opera that means
that you can't be gay. First of all, I think Madame Sutherland's preferences
are a bit opaque to me....she certainly seems comfortable living in close
proximity to gay men, or at least one gay man. Most people would call
Troyanos a great singer, or something close (not sure I would), and her
sexuality was well-known in the years before her death.
I don't know what you're getting at, and I am not entirely sure now if you
do. I don't think you're a bigot, but your statements are very confusing to
me, to say the least.
"shortspark" <mar...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5732-402...@storefull-3191.bay.webtv.net...
Operatunenity
conductor because of the iconic nature of singing, A singer is more publicly
exposed to the general public. For those who are openly gay it's not a problem,
for closet gays and homophobic singers it's a problem.
acar...@alaska.net
> .... My own preference is for some of the
> Belgian beers
Westmalle double or triple, REG?
Mark D Lew
<evgmso...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Don't forget the article/interview in Opera News (which has no
> gay/lesbian connection SFAIK)! It may not have spelled the facts out in
> letters of fire, but it was certainly clear and open about the
> relationship between the two women (and also included a picture of them
> together).
Ms Racette's inclination was an "open secret" in the SF opera community
long before it was revealed in any press.
mdl
Mark D Lew
<jszostak...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Alex: Well then...now I understand...the time thing and the updating of
> posts between 3-9 hours after being posted. Really? Good grief that seems
> like an awful lot of lead time. I have Comcast and post immediately at any
> time of the day I wish...which (as in this case) was very late at night and
> early the next morning (bit of insomnia).
I believe that posts sent from Dejanews go *out* promptly. The delay
is in the display of incoming messages to be read from the Dejanews
site. Among other things, the data isn't read directly by a
newsreader, so it has to go through whatever process converts it to
HTML.
Anyway, it hardly seems shocking to read a post nine hours after the
fact. Anyone who doesn't check in three times a day is bound to do
that, no matter what means he or she uses to read the posts.
mdl
Mark D Lew
<rubberba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The way I see it, big deal. She's a very fine soprano and I'd go to hear her
> regardless of her sexual preference. Admittedly the knowledge of a person's
> homosexuality can make certain love duets amusing... but other than that,
> who cares? It's not important.
Any more amusing than discovering a certain soprano is heterosexual but
nevertheless feels that her leading man is icky?
Come to think of it, that *is* pretty amusing.
mdl
Rubberbandgirl
"Mark D Lew" <mark...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:090220040251199784%mark...@earthlink.net...
Indeed it is!
Rubberband Girl
REG
<acar...@alaska.net> wrote in message
news:eea9d166.04020...@posting.google.com...
Leonard Tillman
And a very common occurence. Icky male leads invariably outnumber their
female counterparts - which is fortunate, if any of the latter are, for
some reason, seeking the former.
>mdl
Leonard Tillman
"Love is not blind - it sees more, not less. But because it sees more,
it is willing to see less."
-- Rabbi Julins Gordon
shortspark
opinion but don't read too much into things. Your first paragraph is a
synopsis of precisely what I was saying. It is the public that decides
who is great and who is not, not the singer's talent or ability,
considerable though it may be. And the public can be a fickle lot.
Of course singers with the superior ability of those I mentioned are
most often crowned as "great". But would they have been considered so
if they were gay? Would their lives have taken the glory path they did
or would there have been an effort to thwart their careers? Would the
public think of them and love them in the same way?
If Sutherland's preference was not as "opaque" to you but rather clear
cut would she have enjoyed the star status she had? Maybe, maybe not, we
will never know. If she came out today and said she was gay few people
would give a rat's ass - she would still be a legendary figure. But
would she have been given the chance to excel if she said she was gay at
age 20? The student tenor I referred to earlier certainly thought his
career would be in jeopardy because of his sexual orientation. I hope
today he would not feel that way but he sure did then.
And he had good cause to be fearful - has there been a great singer
(acknowledged as such by the general public) who ever said he or she was
gay? I never said a gay is incapable of having a great voice; all I
said is no admitted gay has ever been crowned a "great" singer by the
public. (And I simply gave a few examples of singers who define the
term "great"). Could there be a connection? The student felt there was
(at least at that point in history) and it had nothing whatsoever to do
with ability. But rather that, talent notwithstanding, his career would
be hurt by his sexual orientation. Thats all I've been saying and
frankly, I don't think he was wrong. Do you?
shortspark
==================================
jszostaksr
not-so-great society of 'closed minds'...and that membership grows smaller
with each passing year.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Jack Hamilton" <j...@acm.org> wrote in message
news:gr5e20dms6v16nnhr...@4ax.com...
Blackguard
Richergar, you are long time poster here and I usually respect your
opinion but don't read too much into things. Your first paragraph is a
synopsis of precisely what I was saying. It is the public that decides
who is great and who is not, not the singer's talent or ability,
considerable though it may be. And the public can be a fickle lot. >
The public does not decide who is great - only who is popular.
Telly
Singer709
> while opera has a lot of fans who are gay, are/were there many gays who
> would be considered opera "stars"?
> frank
>
>
> --
Let me weigh in on this. I have sung in several small venue opera
companies. In many situations, we had singers who were gay (male or
female). In every instance but one, this was a non-issue. No one gave
a damn. No one cared. And for that I was thankful.
I am a solidly straight man who choses to live in a strongly
mix-oriented neighborhood and associate with many alternate-lifestyle
friends. I love these friends and their sexual orientation is not a
factor, ever. And I don't care whether a particular famous opera star
is gay, the same as whether an actor or musician or writer or
firefighter or cop or whatever is gay. I simply don't give a damn. I
have sat next to gay singers in our dressing room and laughed and
joked, shared makeup hints and snacks and generally had a good time.
It was simply not a factor.
The one instance of a gay person being a nuisance was this one tenor
in our company who used his gayness as a weapon, and each time his
singing or acting was in any way criticized or commented upon by the
director, he'd blame it on anti-gay prejudice. He had a chip on his
shoulder and was a general ass about everything. He had a big blowup
with our music director one rehearsal and was told that he could take
a hike, which he did. But his problems were not a result of his being
gay -- he was an arrogant SOB who used his gayness to deflect any
criticism. There are asses on both sides of the fence.
Leonard Tillman
>The public does not decide who is great - only
> who is popular.
Now, that's usually true, except in cases where the remark is advanced
by a talentless, multi-pseudonymous hack - implying itself to be an
unrecognized "great":
>Telly, aka, Charles "The Hack" Bollman, aka >"The Phantom of RMO"
Perfectly illustrated, Bollman.
Schneider
<< I am a solidly straight man who choses to live in a strongly
mix-oriented neighborhood and associate with many alternate-lifestyle
friends. I love these friends and their sexual orientation is not a
factor, ever. . . I have sat next to gay singers in our dressing room and
laughed and
joked, shared makeup hints and snacks and generally had a good time. >>
My, aren't you a special person!
<<There are asses on both sides of the fence. >>
Isn't *that* a pretty picture . . .
Schneider
================================
"There is no parallel latitude but believes it could have been the equator
if it had only had its rights"--Twain
Blackguard
"shortspark" <mar...@webtv.net> wrote
> Was Tebaldi or Tucker gay? How about Corelli or Sutherland? >
We do not know.
Telly
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
One is reminded of Scotto and Pavarotti! (She several times, on camera,
made her feelings about the big man public.)
>
> Rubberband Girl
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
You remind me of a segment on the much lamented "Show of Shows", back in
the 1950's. In one of their spoofs on opera, they portrayed Imogene
Coca as a soprano forced to be "romantic" while being enveloped in
clouds of garlic breath by the tenor.
>
> mdl
REG
clearer this time around. I think the amplification was worth it.
"shortspark" <mar...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1150-402...@storefull-3191.bay.webtv.net...
REG
"Blackguard" <telr...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:IjNVb.26245$8a5....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
REG
"Blackguard" <telr...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3WTVb.26419$8a5....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
DVD Baron
"F R" <essp...@webtv.net> wrote in message news:6479-402...@storefull-3318.bay.webtv.net...
while opera has a lot of fans who are gay, are/were there many gays who
would be considered opera "stars"?
frank
Karen Mercedes
made her debut at La Monnaie in 1902 as Carmen, which became her signature
role. According to the Illustrated London News, "even Calve's
performances [of the role] pale next to it."
Gay was married (in 1913) to tenor Giuseppe Zenatello, with whom she
retired in New York, becoming a voice teacher.
Karen Mercedes
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
________________________________
I want to know God's thoughts...
the rest are details.
- Albert Einstein
acar...@alaska.net
more than a couple of hundred breweries (I may be exaggerating, but
only a little) and to my surprise was available in one bar in
Amsterdam near my hotel - but if you can find it in the US you REALLY
do have connections. By all means, try it - although the triple I
tested, before settling on the double (the usual amount of alcohol)
was at a place in Brussels very fittingly called La Mort Subite´
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<nRKVb.186470$4F2.24...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
Capa0848
>From: Mark D Lew mark...@earthlink.net
>Date: 2/9/2004 2:49 AM Pacific Standard
>I believe that posts sent from Dejanews go *out* promptly. The delay
>is in the display of incoming messages to be read from the Dejanews
>site. Among other things, the data isn't read directly by a
>newsreader, so it has to go through whatever process converts it to
>HTML.
Yes. If I post from Google Groups at noon my time, I almost never see my post
displayed (on Google) before 5:00. But I occasionally get personal e-mail
responses within a few minutes. It sends posts quite quickly, typically; but I
think it goes through some kind of batch processing to display groups of "new"
posts every few hours. Unlike on AOL or Outlook, where one can typically see
one's own new post within minutes, sometimes seconds. (Although every once in
a great while, particularly on weekends, a thread will materialize that
clearly originated a day or two earlier; but this happens less often than it
did a couple of years ago.
But my AOL provider NEVER posts really long messages (mine or anyone else's),
even though I have set the "length" filter at the maximum. I have never
understood why that happens.
Pat
Oh, cease! must hate and death return?
Cease! must men kill and die?
Cease! drain not to the dregs the urn
Of bitter prophecy
The world is weary of the past.
Oh might it die or rest at last. Shelley, "Hellas"
Rubberbandgirl
Rubberband Girl
"Karen Mercedes" <dal...@radix.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.43.04020...@saltmine.radix.net...