Sena Jurinac
REG
quite a while, and was more than glad to be reminded what a directly
expressive and womanly singer she was. Two questions
The Four Last Songs with Busch which are on the disc (a live performance) -
are these the 4 which "everyone" refers to who seems to place this set close
to the top of the list? For all my pleasure in her performances, she seems
at moments ill-at-ease and I don't particularly find Abendrot moving - I
still love Enazibeth in this
Second, did anyone ever hear her live? She never made the MET for various
reasons - Bing said she was either falling in love or out of love, but I
thought that very late she appeared in some Janacek in SF. I would
appreciate thoughts and reflections about her in performance - stage
deportment, size of voice, ability to manage the top, etc
Matthew B. Tepper
news:2pkO8.16335$Dz1.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com:
> I listened this morning to the EMI references; I'd not listened to her
> in quite a while, and was more than glad to be reminded what a
> directly expressive and womanly singer she was. Two questions
>
> The Four Last Songs with Busch which are on the disc (a live
> performance) - are these the 4 which "everyone" refers to who seems to
> place this set close to the top of the list? For all my pleasure in
> her performances, she seems at moments ill-at-ease and I don't
> particularly find Abendrot moving - I still love Enazibeth in this
Yes, that's the set; and what a pleasant surprise it was when it came
out. I'd still also recommend her Octavian in the film, for singing and
sexiness.
> Second, did anyone ever hear her live? She never made the MET for
> various reasons - Bing said she was either falling in love or out of
> love, but I thought that very late she appeared in some Janacek in SF.
> I would appreciate thoughts and reflections about her in performance -
> stage deportment, size of voice, ability to manage the top, etc
Alas, her San Francisco appearances were still too early for me.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Robert Gordon
> Second, did anyone ever hear her live? She never made the MET for various
> reasons - Bing said she was either falling in love or out of love, but I
> thought that very late she appeared in some Janacek in SF.
Yes, I saw her in Jenufa, with Elizabeth Soderstrom, William Lewis as Steva, and
(I think but am not quite sure) Wieslaw Ochman as Laca. San Francisco has done
very well by Jenufa over the years -- the next time they did it was the famous
set of performances with Rysanek and Benacova.
Well, both these casts were brilliant, but on the whole I think I preferred
Jurinac over Rysanek. Rysanek was more intense and melodramatic (not that
there's anything wrong with that), while Jurinac was more contained -- she
seemed to have more bottled up inside her, more subtext perhaps (I don't think
Rysanek ever did subtext). In the last scene she did something that has
remained in my memory ever since: when the police handcuffed her to take her
away, she threw her shoulders back and her head up and strode forward, as if
going off to prison were the proudest moment of her life. It was devastating,
and everytime I have seen Jenufa I have hoped to see that effect repeated -- no
luck so far, although tomorrow I am going to give Katherine Ciesinski a chance
at the Long Beach Opera.
-- Rob Gordon
Jonathan Sydenham
Radient and not a tone unplaced.
Jonathan
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2pkO8.16335$Dz1.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Ward Hardman
: I listened this morning to the EMI references; I'd not listened to her in
: quite a while, and was more than glad to be reminded what a directly
: expressive and womanly singer she was. Two questions
: The Four Last Songs with Busch which are on the disc (a live performance) -
: are these the 4 which "everyone" refers to who seems to place this set close
: to the top of the list? For all my pleasure in her performances, she seems
: at moments ill-at-ease and I don't particularly find Abendrot moving - I
: still love Enazibeth in this
I thought that Della Casa/Boehm was the usual choice...
Which of Schwantzkopf's ("Schwantz" is German slang for a backside or "butt")
performances are you referring to, the one with Ackermann or the one with
Szell? I recently picked up a Kontrapunkt cutout at Tower with Elizabeth
Meyer-Topsoe (I can't put the phi-like slash through the final 'o' on my
system), and think that is now my favorite. Janowitz/Karajan isn't bad,
but Norman/Masur is too glacially slow, especially compared to Dell Casa.
--Ward Hardman
"The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence, just simple
competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken
REG
IMHO. First, the conducting as far as I am concerned as never been bettered,
and it is difficult to listen to those first few measures of Adendrot and
not have a tear in the eye. All of Lizzie's archness is to me put to good
effect, and the miking gives her the strength she needs where she'd
otherwise be overwhelmed. I think the only performance which is "better" for
me is the Flagstad dress.
"Ward Hardman" <har...@sciences.sdsu.edu> wrote in message
news:aedq9i$ftl$4...@gondor.sdsu.edu...
Mitchell Kaufman
> Which of Schwantzkopf's ("Schwantz" is German slang for a backside or "butt")
You mean "Schwanz?"
If so, you've got your body sides mixed up.
MK
Britta
>Which of Schwantzkopf's ("Schwantz" is German slang for a backside or "butt")
No. Wrong. What was that about competence?
The word is "Schwanz." It is German slang for "penis." Something that
Elisabeth Schwarzkopf (just in case anybody is interested in the correct
spelling of her name) didn't have.
> "The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence, just simple
> competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
> - H.L. Mencken
Oh. Right. That was it. Competence, the lack of, I have to remember that.
Especially when dealing with Ward Hardman.
Britta
Mitchell Kaufman
Take two:
Further research indicates that it *can* refer to either front or back, though
my understanding is the "tail" analogy is usually employed to refer to the male
body part that most resembles one. And my spelling is correct.
Why don't we compromise and call her "Scheisskopf?"
(For this I took two years of German?)
MK
REG
"Britta" <britt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aedu0...@drn.newsguy.com...
Britta
>
>Please Britta, get off the rag. This is what you came back for?
>"Britta" <britt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:aedu0...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> <aedq9i$ftl$4...@gondor.sdsu.edu>, Ward Hardman schrieb:
>>
>> >Which of Schwantzkopf's ("Schwantz" is German slang for a backside or
>"butt")
>>
>> No. Wrong. What was that about competence?
>>
>> The word is "Schwanz." It is German slang for "penis."
Please REG, use your goddammed dictionary. "Schwanz" does NOT mean
backside or butt. It means "penis."
It happened to be Ward Hardman who made a mistake in a translation from
German to English. If it had been you, or Valfer, or Mark Lew, or I don't
give a good Goddamm who, I would have made the same correction. Because in the
case of German-to-English translation I KNOW.
It has nothing to do with any particular poster. It has nothing to do
with you. It has nothing to do with "get off the rag" and I have to admit
that I don't have any idea what that means. It has to do with a bad
translation.
What's the problem here? If I make a mistake in English I'll be grateful
for your correction. Can we show a little common sense here, please?
Britta
Britta
>Further research indicates that it *can* refer to either front or back
An animal which has a tail (not a human person) may be referred to as
having a Schwanz which is the tail. A really beautiful tail, like that
of a horse or a fox, for instance, is a Schweif. There is somehow the
inference of a brush with the word Schweif. A comet has a Schweif. A
monkey probably has a Schwanz, a tail which is not brush-like.
An animal which does not have a tail (for instance, a male human person)
may however still have a Schwanz. In this case the word refers to the penis.
It is the slang word that we use (among many others) for penis. An animal
may have both a Schweif and a Schwanz, a tail and a penis, a fox for instance.
>though
>my understanding is the "tail" analogy is usually employed to refer to the male
>body part that most resembles one. And my spelling is correct.
Yes.
>Why don't we compromise and call her "Scheisskopf?"
Which means "shithead." Your choice.
>(For this I took two years of German?)
Good for you. I took about 40 years of English.
>MK
Britta
REG
with Ward, who certainly wasn't attacking or even referencing you. It would
be common sense not to go after him.
"Britta" <britt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aee2f...@drn.newsguy.com...
Britta
>I don't give a damn what Schwantz means. .. I don't like the tone you take
>with Ward, who certainly wasn't attacking or even referencing you. It would
>be common sense not to go after him.
I don't give a damn what you give a damn about. When Ward learns to use
his own native language I might start to take him seriously. You and your
friend Simon (yes, I can read headers) can probably hold the fort until
then.
Have fun. I'm out of here.
Britta
Alcindoro
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
Relax, Britta - there seem to be a lot of Schwartzkopf
detractors here (was she REALLY a Nazi, or just an artist
pursuing a career in her native country, as best she
could?). When they find their "clever" remarks being
questioned on the basis of accuracy of translation, they get
upset. I can sympathize with the viewpoint of our Jewish
posters, but do they REALLY think a young German soprano
intent upon a career was responsible for the Holocaust?
Perhaps, like most of the rest of the German people, she
"allowed" it to happen - but how many people living in a
"police" state have the courage to speak out publicly
against their government, let alone initiate action against
it? It's always easy to be brave and "macho" after the
fact, but I wonder how many who are so condemnatory now
would have done any better, had they been there? (I suspect
most of them weren't even born, yet, so have no idea what it
was really like.)
David Melnick
>
> I'm out of here.
>
> Britta
>
Please don't leave, Britta. I still remember your and
Stephan's illuminating discussion of Strauss/Hoffmannsthal
last year. When knowledge is shared, the gods smile.
David
REG
concern of "Jewish posters" is lamentable at best. You obviously know none
of the facts of the matter, though they are readily available. You've no
idea of what it meant to join the party, how many people didn't, what
Enazibethh's attitudes were about this (and about Jews, since you single us
out - is that all you think Nazism was about?). You are not even being fair
to Germans when you say "like most of the German people, she 'allowed' it to
happen" - most Germans weren't Nazis, but I doubt that you even understand
the distinction, or the sizable number of Germans who resisted one way or
another.
"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3D0AD2E4...@earthlink.net...
Leonard Tillman
> German slang for a backside or "butt") "
>"You mean "Schwanz?"
>If so, you've got your body sides mixed up. "
>Take two:
>Further research indicates that it *can* refer to
> either front or back, though my understanding
> is the "tail" analogy is usually employed to
> refer to the male body part that most
> resembles one. And my spelling is correct.
>Why don't we compromise and call her
> "Scheisskopf?"
Now, that's better than a compromise - it's a more accurate term for
that individual than either Schwantzkopf or her actual surname.
>(For this I took two years of German?)
>MK
:)
LT
I gave my CDs their own room. Now, they want the entire house.
Simon Pietraru
Britta
Please leave us Britta. Please leave us because once you established
your credentials in this group in all matters operatic, you
increasingly limited yourself to the most despicable flame wars. Your
current re-entry into the shit circle is quite emblematic of your true
focus of involvement in this group. I am very far from being REG's
friend in any of his personalities (REG, Barbara Gross or Skip – yes,
even Skip – I can prove it upon request). I also totally disagree with
his specific campaigns, be it about "the good one" (E.S.) or anything
else. But I'm tired of your hysterical outbursts, your arrogance as
the self-appointed priestess of the German language on this group, and
particularly your games as an injured party crying out for the group's
knights in shinning armor to protect you. How many times were we
fooled into playing the game of "oh God, Britta will leave us again if
we upset her", and how well did you play us? What is this posture of
"I returned to the group and I see you're still up to no good –
DISGUSTING!" Take a deep breath, stop moralizing and admit you enjoy
the feuds as long as you are worshipped, because, wow, what a thin
skin indeed you have.
And I'm not even getting into what's really on your mind in this
group, as evidenced by your last lamentable outburst on a previous ES
thread. Big mistake to seek resolution and vindication for what you
went through more than half a century ago, on this group. You are
really full of grievances, only they're a lot more serious than you
dare to articulate on this board. Can you spell CLOSURE?
Bottom line, it's a shame. It's a shame because your entire
contribution to this group has evolved, by your choice, to be OT. You
have a lot to give, but even at your best one had to beg and grovel to
milk something out of you. What we have now is a condescending cranky
old lady. Are you big enough to skip the shit and talk to us about
opera?
Simonel
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
REG wrote:
>
> The fact that you think a concern about whether someone is a Nazi is a
> concern of "Jewish posters" is lamentable at best.
If someone "is" a Nazi (meaning in the here and now), I
would join you in protesting. What someone "was" (in
Germany, during WW2) is a different matter. In point of
fact, most performing artists are pretty a-political, unless
they are personally affected by a regime.
> You obviously know none
> of the facts of the matter, though they are readily available.
That's why I asked, wasn't it? All I ever knew of
Schwartzopf was when her recordings became available in this
country - she certainly was much admired by a great many
American voice students of my generation. That was a lot
closer to the end of the war than we are now, and at the
time nothing was widely known about her political
affiliations or lack of them. (And she WAS a damned good
soprano - IMO the voice lacked the warmth of a Tebaldi, but
her interpretation was superb.)
> You've no
> idea of what it meant to join the party, how many people didn't,
Not true!
> what
>Schwartkopf's attitudes were about this
Do you? If so what were they? (I DID ask, you know - but
you'd apparently rather rant than answer my question.)
> (and about Jews, since you single us
> out - is that all you think Nazism was about?).
No, of course not! (But Hitler died more than half a century
ago, and were it not for the Holocaust, I doubt whether
anyone would care, any more - tyranny is tyranny, but I
don't see anyone making obscene remarks about Russian
artists, "party members" or not.) I remember the news
photos, when the Allies first entered some of the camps, and
the horror everyone felt when they realized those "unlikely
rumours" were true. I merely questioned how much one young
soprano had to do with all that. Did she sing for the camp
commanders, or cheer while the victims were marched to their
deaths? If not, I do not understand the vitriolic comments
about her - how many people do things that seem "expedient"
at the time, then live to regret them? (And artists
concentrating upon their careers perhaps more often than
"ordinary" people.)
> You are not even being fair
> to Germans when you say "like most of the German people, she 'allowed' it to
> happen" - most Germans weren't Nazis, but I doubt that you even understand
> the distinction, or the sizable number of Germans who resisted one way or
> another.
There really doesn't seem much point in replying to you,
since you obviously leap wildly to unfounded conclusions
(but I've started, so will finish this one). You know
nothing about me, my educational background, or the extent
of my knowledge, but I dare to question you, ergo..... I am
fully aware of all that, as I pointed out (you chose to cut
the rest of my comment). People living under a totalitarian
government have very little control over what that
government does - even if they are card-carrying
party-members (whatever their reasons for being so). For
that matter, how much control do we Americans REALLY have
over ours, with someone like Dubya in the White House - even
if we're card-carrying Republicans? I don't "blame" the
German people for Hitler and the actions of his government.
I DO question the holier-than-thou attitudes of people who
weren't even BORN then, who can only see those times in the
light of 20/20 hindsight, and who judge the actions of the
people who WERE there by some impossibly inflated notions of
how brave THEY would have been under the same
circumstances. (And who bad mouth artists who behaved
differently than they imagine they would have done in the
same situation.)
REG
think you're wrong about some of the points (including Liz in particular),
but we can discuss it between ourselves. There have been so many threads on
this I think it's not fair to the group as a whole, and I'm sure you agree.
You have my email if you want.
REG
"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3D0B8F5A...@earthlink.net...
Rob Schell
"Britta" <britt...@hotmail.com> wrote
> It has nothing to do with any particular poster. It has nothing to do
> with you. It has nothing to do with "get off the rag" and I have to admit
> that I don't have any idea what that means. It has to do with a bad
> translation.
>
His advice to "get off the rag" refers to sanitary devices that women wear
during their menstrual cycles. The implication is that women are irrational
and unpredictable during their cycles. The expression has long been used as
a dismissive and demeaning putdown of women by men who fear them and hold
them in contempt. In that single post REG/AMOR has revealed more of his
essential nature than in all his other posts combined. Not that anyone
cares.
REG
"Rob Schell" <rhein...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:aeffbc$n0q$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Rob Schell
"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3D0B8F5A...@earthlink.net...
Rob Schell
vise.
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fwMO8.9922$QD2.2...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
REG
genitalia since Dan has been away from the group for a little while. I'm
sure you miss him. You've always needed men to fantasize about on this
group.
"Rob Schell" <rhein...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:aehv7c$2ln$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Rob Schell
> Charles, it doesn't surprise me that you have been obsessed with my
> genitalia since Dan has been away from the group for a little while. I'm
> sure you miss him. You've always needed men to fantasize about on this
> group.
>
No. Only since you identified yourself as Amor, Rag. And you are not exactly
a man, are you?
michael farris
Britta wrote:
> The word is "Schwanz." It is German slang for "penis." Something that
> Elisabeth Schwarzkopf (just in case anybody is interested in the correct
> spelling of her name) didn't have.
supply your own punchline.
-michael farris (who hopes everyone here is grateful for his restraint)
Leonard Tillman
>Britta wrote:
>The word is "Schwanz." It is German slang for
> "penis." Something that Elisabeth
> Schwarzkopf (just in case anybody is
> interested in the correct spelling of her name)
> didn't have.
>supply your own punchline.
I have. So far eleven possible choices, in fact.
>-michael farris (who hopes everyone here is
> grateful for his restraint)
You aren't the only one practicing restraint in this instance.
There are several points that could be made to a few individuals here,
though there wouldn't likely be any good results overall....so, -- back
to the world of opera..
LT
Better to have loved a short lass than never to have loved a tall.
Ward Hardman
: Mitchell Kaufman <forg...@iaint.disclosinit> wrote
: Take two:
Actually, I was trying to think of clever word-plays on Schwartzkopf's name,
and observed that changing only one letter, the 'r', to an 'n' would yield
the equivalent of "butthead." Next, I checked an on-line German-English
dictionary, but with the spelling "Schwantz" rather than "Schwanz." I
couldn't find a definition, so thought that my German-American in-laws
(second-generation) had given me information that would be classified as
slang. The (Jewish?) slang definition would make it "dick-head" rather
than "butt-head," but in these days of equal opportunity for women, that
may pass muster. ;-)
I do have a fair number of Lizzie's recordings, and have complaints only
about her tendency to get too "cute" at times. Any punishments she
deserves for real and/or imagined transgression may already have been
served during the period she had Mr. Legge as husband.
--Ward Hardman
Mitchell Kaufman
> Actually, I was trying to think of clever word-plays on Schwartzkopf's
> name, and observed that changing only one letter, the 'r', to an 'n' would
> yield the equivalent of "butthead."
Not to belabor this, but the name is "Schwarzkopf" (no 't').
How many letters would you have to change to turn her into Beavis? :-)
MK
Ward Hardman
: Not to belabor this, but the name is "Schwarzkopf" (no 't').
Ooops! It seems like I'm sticking extraneous T's all over lately. ;-)
--Ward Hardman
"If there is anyone I have not offended, I sincerely apologize."
- Johannes Brahms
Rob Schell
against the malicious attacks of REG/RAG/AMOR/TUCHAS. Why are you so afraid
of him?
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20341-3D0...@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Oisk17
>It's pathetic that you lot here haven't the integrity to support Britta
>against the malicious attacks of REG/RAG/AMOR/TUCHAS. Why are you so afraid
>of him?
Tresbirri did support her. So did I, privately. But you are right; I should
have done so publicly as well; I will remedy that. I admire Britta, and hope
that she will post here again soon.
Regards,
Paul
Dr. Speedbyrd:>
Well isn't Britta lucky to be so loved
Dr. SpeedbyrdŽ
Hallowed be my name....
REG
This new screen name Rob Schell, seems to have a lot more of the real "you"
in it than most of them. You spend multiple posts fantasizing about my
genitalia, and now you're thinking about my tuchas. Your needs are so
transparent, Charles. And it's great that you can type with one hand.
Britta can stay or go, it doesn't matter to me either way, but it doesn't
really matter to you either, does it? She attacked someone who hadn't said
to a bad word to her in an unprovoked and nasty manner, going so far as to
actually call him "worthless" - not his posts, but him; she had the
termerity to equate him to your friend Speedbyrd, a bigoted, anti-Semitic
and xenophobic racist who seems proud to be a sexual predator. The person
Britta attacked is not only an email friend of mine, but a personal
acquaitance whom I like; if you had friends, you'd understand. If she lays
off those comments, I really don't care what she does; her posts can be
valuable.
And it's just not true that I don't like strong women. I like you, Charles.
You go, girl.
I'll talk to you later.
"Rob Schell" <rhein...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:aem0m9$9t9$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
thierry morice
>
> The word is "Schwanz." It is German slang for "penis." Something that
> Elisabeth Schwarzkopf (just in case anybody is interested in the correct
> spelling of her name) didn't have.
>
Does it mean she's got one now ?
To come back to the origin of this thread, IMHO the greatest treasures
on this CD '(the EMI References devoted to Jurinac) are NOT the 4 Last
Songs, but (without special order) the Fiordiligi items, the excerpts
from Idomeneo and the Slavic opera arias.
The Lullaby from Smetana's Hubicka e.g. is absolutely masterful.
Listen to the way she expresses the "sobs" integrated by Smetana into
the line in the second part of the song, the way she has the
unaccentuated syllables (Baeu*men*, Traeu*men*) sound .., it is
highest art in a nutshell.
thierry
Leonard Tillman
>It's pathetic that you lot here haven't the
> integrity to support Britta against the
> malicious attacks of
> REG/RAG/AMOR/TUCHAS.
But we have. Privately, so as to not get into the type of prolonged
flaming that was the rule here till about half a year ago.
>Why are you so afraid of him?
:-))))) Is that what you think? Please check some of our posting
histories.
It's just that even when offended, there's at times, a reluctance
to flame - not for the sustaining and throwing of a few barbs - but
rather to avoid that interminable, infernal, *prolonging* I just
mentioned. Though I often enjoy REG's posts, and even find Wards
limericks are very often knee-slappers (and notice that *he* did no real
counter-attack, evidently not such a bad fellow, himself. ),
-- for what Britta wrote, no "get off the rag" phrasings were an
appropriate response in the least. If that's now the proper etiquette
in addressing a member of the female persuasion, then truly, "where the
$^&* have we come???"
Rob, it matters not to me whether you're
Charles Bollman, Dubi, Robin, Romaine, or any of several individuals,
when you wrote what you did, my reaction *was* indeed, "Wish I'd said
that!!". Okay?
And please note that REG, BTW, was Sir Galahad, when compared to a
certain recent waste-product-specimen import here "Slime-onel" who
called Britta several terms that a man (or even what of him is excised
at a circumcision party) would not throw at a lady, whether speaking in
or out of turn..
But she'll hopefully pay no further attention to THOSE rantings from
down under (no disrespect to our friends who are in that area).
And Britta, if you're seeing this, I as a friend urge you to P L E
A S E be a bit (or a lot) more discriminate about whose posts you spend
your time reading. *NOT EVERY* post is worth your time (and
aggravation) merely because it's on the board. I try to follow that
excellent and wonderful advice, myself, these days.
Leonard Tillman (repolishing my "shining suit of armor" - a little
"3-In-One" motor oil does wonders!)
------------------------------
Leonard Tillman
>It's pathetic that you lot here haven't the
> integrity to support Britta against the
> malicious attacks of
> REG/RAG/AMOR/TUCHAS.
But we have. Privately, so as to not get into the type of prolonged
flaming that was the rule here till about half a year ago.
>Why are you so afraid of him?
:-))))) Is that what you think? Please check some of our posting
histories.
Leonard Tillman
>Britta <britt...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> message
> news:<aedu0...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>The word is "Schwanz." It is German slang for
> "penis." Something that Elisabeth
> Schwarzkopf (just in case anybody is
> interested in the correct spelling of her name)
> didn't have.
>Does it mean she's got one now ?
Yes. We may safely infer that she is now the justifiably proud
possessor of one.
-- Though she'd be wise to forego circumcision at her age (not
that some of her pupils and other recipients of her tact would really be
concerned).
tresbirri
>Britta can stay or go, it doesn't matter to me either way
REG, you follow this remark by a long discussion of Britta's sins, in which, I
think, you show us that she matters to you very much. Do you not 'protest too
much'?
>If she lays
>off those comments, I really don't care what she does
In fact, my friend, she has offered to do this, if you will agree to respond in
the same way. You refused the bargain. Will you not reconsider?
>The person
>Britta attacked is not only an email friend of mine, but a personal
>acquaitance whom I like
It seems to me, you do your friend no service with these posts, to prolong an
unfortunate situation. Ward has responded with admirable good humour to the
situation. For this I salute him with sincere respect.
tresbirri
tresbirri
<20020618000520...@mb-mh.aol.com>:
>Tresbirri did support her. So did I, privately.
I gladly supported Britta and will gladly do this at any time. This is for the
pleasure she has given me many times with her posts on this newsgroup. I also
have great sympathy with her conviction that a childish vulgarity, created in a
language which is foreign to the writing person, is doubly offensive.
In private mail, I scolded her very strictly! This is for the inability to
control her bad temper.
I myself have a terribly bad temper. How many times I have written angry posts
to this newsgroup! But I have learned, after writing many angry words, to press
DELETE, not SEND. I have the satisfaction of writing my angry thoughts, but do
not have the embarrassment of offending others unnecessarily. I recommend this
method!
I have also the advantage, I am in the same time zone with Britta and can see
what time she is posting. When someone, who is normally intelligent and
thoughtful, sends several angry posts at 4:00 in the morning, I am more
concerned rather than angry.
>I admire Britta, and hope
>that she will post here again soon.
I agree completely and I think, perhaps we must leave Britta now in peace. We
who are only concerned, not involved, probably do not help the situation.
(This last sermon is directed from me to me! I will now be quiet.)
cari saluti,
tresbirri
Leonard Tillman
any of us -- can't successfully forbid nor intimidate one another from
posting what we may not care for, just by hastily shooting "essential
correctives" and attempts at "character analysis".
Translation: People will say what they will. Hopefully, -- on each
side -- it will be *tempered* wisely BEFORE pressing "Send", with some
concern for consequences - if not for others' feelings. Especially when
we've been friendly until now.
Andrew Clarke
>
> >Which of Schwantzkopf's ("Schwantz" is German slang for a backside or "butt")
>
>
> The word is "Schwanz." It is German slang for "penis." Something that
> Elisabeth Schwarzkopf (just in case anybody is interested in the correct
> spelling of her name) didn't have.
>
> > competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
> > - H.L. Mencken
>
> Especially when dealing with Ward Hardman.
>
> Britta
Britta, your correspondent is one of those who expend a very great
deal of bandwidth ridiculing, in sophomoric fashion, those whose
tastes extend only to light classical music of the kind recorded by
Russell Watkins, Charlotte Church and others. I have always suspected
that this kind of ridicule often amounts to a kind of sublimated
snobbery, whereby people can draw a veil over their own bad taste and
philistinism by continually attacking the imputedly poor taste of
others. This linguistically-challenged imitations of a German
elementary school lavatory door, at the expense of a great though no
longer fashionable singer, rather proves my point.
(Those of us who have attempted Proust will find much the same
syndrome analysed in those marvellous descriptions of the Verdurin's
dinner parties. Mr and Mrs Walter Legge would very definitely have
been counted as among the "ennuyeux" at that establishment. In the
case of Mr Hardman, Walter Legge suffers from the additional
disability of being British, about which he seems to have another bee
in his bonnet, for some pathological reason or other. Perhaps his
mother was frightened by Max Bygraves.)
I have a videorecording of that film of Rosenkavalier, and yes, I note
the stagey acting, the constant rapid vibrato, the half-strangulated
vocal swoops and all the other mannerisms we associate with
Schwarzkopf, and which no young soprano could get away with now. I
also anticipate every time the passage in the trio in the final scene
where there is a stratospheric part for the Marschallin which is
absolute magic, of the kind that only Schwarzkopf could give us.
We probably wouldn't record today the kind of Four last Songs she
recorded in the 1950s, but really, aren't we glad that she did?
As for her political affiliations, Mme Schwarzkopf, like one German in
four, joined the NDSAP, as a member of its social welfare
organisation. She also sang for the troops, like hundreds of others.
It is probably appropriate to mention that attachment to some Nazi
organisation or other was at that time unavoidable -- membership of
the Hitler Jugend and the Bund Deutscher Maedschen being virtually
mandatory. She didn't join the organised anti-Nazi Resistance for the
very simple reason that there wasn't one.
Off stage Mme Schwarzkopf has demonstrated, we're told, both
chauvinism and contemptuous arrogance to a very unpleasant degree. But
if we expel all the unpleasant people from the opera houses of this
world, they're gonna be empty.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
REG
times I played it on "repeat" when I first heard it. I am very surprised
that it's not used as an encore, since it is so bewitching. Do you know of
any other stand-alone recordings of it?
"thierry morice" <tmori...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c5f2da80.02061...@posting.google.com...
thierry morice
> Yes, the lullaby is unbelievable - I would feel silly if I told you how many
> times I played it on "repeat" when I first heard it. I am very surprised
> that it's not used as an encore, since it is so bewitching. Do you know of
> any other stand-alone recordings of it?
>
There is a very good one in Urbanova's CD called "recital" on Erato, a
live recording of concert of arias from Czech operas. The entire CD is
recommandable, and the lullaby is one of its highlights (I had the
finger on the "repeat" button, too ;-)
Else IO heard it in German with Seefried, but she was IMHO not so
masterful as Jurinac.
For the fans of oldies, there is also one with Emmy Destinn (it
includes a bit of recitative and is thus often presented as "A ted me
robe"). I like it, too, but on the whole, o heresy, I'd prefer
Urbanova.
thierry
thierry morice
> times I played it on "repeat" when I first heard it. I am very surprised
> that it's not used as an encore, since it is so bewitching.
Actually in the former Czechoslovakia, everybody has learnt the first
part "hajej muj andilku" at school, while the second "letela belunka
holubicka" is generally played at funerals in various adaptations.
Which may explain while the aria isn't sung so frequently in concerts.
But of course doesn't explain while it isn't done in other countries,
even in translation.
I must say the way how Jurinac plays with the words and goes to the
substance of the language makes me wish she had recorded more Lieder.
thierry
Arkel
to call up old posts, so I can't read what the first entires under this topic
actually were.
Capa0848
>From: ar...@aol.com (Arkel)
>Date: 06/20/2002 7:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020620102219...@mb-fo.aol.com>
>
>Um... and what does this all have to do with Sena Jurinac? I don't seem able
>to call up old posts, so I can't read what the first entires under this topic
>actually were.
=====================
Arkel?
Incredibly, though I see in the archives that you've made 100 posts here over
the last few years, I never connected your name with someone I think I know
from a different shared interest. Perhaps because you've been rather inactive
here since we bumped into each other in another realm, (and I was away from
here for quite a long time).
What's a nice guy like you doing in a rotten place like this anyway? ;-)
Capa
"Of all the gin joints in all the world..."
Dubium
"Arkel" <ar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020620102219...@mb-fo.aol.com...
This was the first post in the thread (from REG):
"I listened this morning to the EMI references; I'd not listened to her in
quite a while, and was more than glad to be reminded what a directly
expressive and womanly singer she was. Two questions
The Four Last Songs with Busch which are on the disc (a live performance) -
are these the 4 which "everyone" refers to who seems to place this set close
to the top of the list? For all my pleasure in her performances, she seems
at moments ill-at-ease and I don't particularly find Abendrot moving - I
still love Enazibeth in this
Second, did anyone ever hear her live? She never made the MET for various
reasons - Bing said she was either falling in love or out of love, but I
thought that very late she appeared in some Janacek in SF. I would
appreciate thoughts and reflections about her in performance - stage
deportment, size of voice, ability to manage the top, etc."
Reposted here as a public service by Dubium D. Dubito.
sal...@pacbell.net
Yes, I had the great joy of hearing Sena Jurenac sing the Marschallin
role in San Francisco, it must have been around 1970 or so. Before
this, I had seen Schwarzkopf and Regine Crespin (spelling) sing the same
role in San Francisco. Of the three, Jurenac was by far the best in this
role. And of course, this is my favorite opera so it was doubly
enjoyable.
John
Robert Gordon
> Second, did anyone ever hear her live? She never made the MET for various
> reasons - Bing said she was either falling in love or out of love, but I
> thought that very late she appeared in some Janacek in SF. I would
> appreciate thoughts and reflections about her in performance - stage
> deportment, size of voice, ability to manage the top, etc."
>
> Reposted here as a public service by Dubium D. Dubito.
Also reposted as a public service:
Yes, I saw her in Jenufa, with Elizabeth Soderstrom, William Lewis as Steva, and
(I think but am not quite sure) Wieslaw Ochman as Laca. San Francisco has done
very well by Jenufa over the years -- the next time they did it was the famous
set of performances with Rysanek and Benacova.
Well, both these casts were brilliant, but on the whole I think I preferred
Jurinac over Rysanek. Rysanek was more intense and melodramatic (not that
there's anything wrong with that), while Jurinac was more contained -- she
seemed to have more bottled up inside her, more subtext perhaps (I don't think
Rysanek ever did subtext). In the last scene she did something that has
remained in my memory ever since: when the police handcuffed her to take her
away, she threw her shoulders back and her head up and strode forward, as if
going off to prison were the proudest moment of her life. It was devastating,
and everytime I have seen Jenufa I have hoped to see that effect repeated -- no
luck so far, although tomorrow I am going to give Katherine Ciesinski a chance
at the Long Beach Opera.
Postscript: Well, the Long Beach Opera was quite good, but Ciesinski was the
weak link. Her voice isn't big enough, she isn't a commanding enough stage
personality, and her diction (in this English-language performance) was
sacrificed to her attempts to overcome these deficits -- she pushed everything
too hard. Toward the end she seemed to have been directed to go to pieces,
which is not what I think happens to Kostelnicka. On the other hand, the rest
of the cast was fine, especially the Jenufa of Lisa Willson and the Laca of Roy
Cornelius Smith, two singers who were new to me but whom I will now keep an eye
out for. Smith definitely has dramatic tenor potential.
-- Rob Gordon
Arkel
Capa
"Of all the gin joints in all the world...">>
LOL, Capa, and oui, c'est moi! I haven't been around a great deal lately
because, frankly, I got tired of reading so much abuse. But I do check in
periodically when I've got some time on my hands and, as the Universe's #1 Most
Rabid Sena Jurinac fan, had to check out this thread. I was kind of
disappointed to find that it wasn't about Jurinac at all by now, but about her
so-much-less-talented-but-oh-so-much--more-hyped colleague (that's my humble
opinion, anyway) and how her name can be toyed with.
So... did anyone actually ever SAY anything about Jurinac? Does anyone else
besides me have the old/new book that just was published about her?
Capa0848
>Message-id: <20020622100019...@mb-md.aol.com>
>
><<What's a nice guy like you doing in a rotten place like this anyway? ;-)
>
>Capa
>
>
>"Of all the gin joints in all the world...">>
>
> LOL, Capa, and oui, c'est moi! I haven't been around a great deal
lately
>because, frankly, I got tired of reading so much abuse. But I do check in
>periodically when I've got some time on my hands and, as the Universe's #1
>Most
>Rabid Sena Jurinac fan, had to check out this thread. I was kind of
>disappointed to find that it wasn't about Jurinac at all by now, but about her
>so-much-less-talented-but-oh-so-much--more-hyped colleague (that's my humble
>opinion, anyway) and how her name can be toyed with.
> So... did anyone actually ever SAY anything about Jurinac?
Probably not. This rmo is rec.music.obnoxious -- you might want to try
rec.music.opera -- but it only occupies this cyberspace a couple of days a
month, it seems.
Pat