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rich...@gmail.com
Dec 27, 2011, 2:49:00 PM12/27/11
to
To keep this within vocal music, there was apparently an unauthorized
song based on the Frost poem, for a while.
But I think the season is right for a Robert Frost poem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfOxdZfo0gs
A moment of self indulgence.
In 7th grade, I had the most amazing English teacher. She was first
generation Irish, wore her hair braided over her head, and ran a class
room probably the way she'd been taught herself 40 years earlier. We
learned to do things that I bet no one else was even learning then
(like writing :"bread and butter letters") and she actually had
recital in the class, where you'd stand in front of her desk in groups
of four and recite (or try to) poems she'd given you to memorize. I
suppose in deference to public tuition, there was no ruler across the
knuckles. She had a completely confident good humor that nothing could
affect.
The most amazing experience perhaps, I had in public school at a time
when, in the public schools, teaching was a calling.
But what was most remarkable was how Mrs. Haggerty read poetry aloud.
I've heard a lot of reading aloud, and I don't think I ever heard
anyone ever read poetry (Frost was her favorite) the way she could.
She ruined, at the tender age of 12 or so, The Witch of Coos for me,
even though I am not sure I understood it all the way through. She
made it into musical drama.
There are two recordings I'd give anything to have. One is of her,
reading anything, and the other is of my cello teacher playing Bach or
even the Arpeggione
Memory will have to do....it just really can't quite be shared.
song based on the Frost poem, for a while.
But I think the season is right for a Robert Frost poem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfOxdZfo0gs
A moment of self indulgence.
In 7th grade, I had the most amazing English teacher. She was first
generation Irish, wore her hair braided over her head, and ran a class
room probably the way she'd been taught herself 40 years earlier. We
learned to do things that I bet no one else was even learning then
(like writing :"bread and butter letters") and she actually had
recital in the class, where you'd stand in front of her desk in groups
of four and recite (or try to) poems she'd given you to memorize. I
suppose in deference to public tuition, there was no ruler across the
knuckles. She had a completely confident good humor that nothing could
affect.
The most amazing experience perhaps, I had in public school at a time
when, in the public schools, teaching was a calling.
But what was most remarkable was how Mrs. Haggerty read poetry aloud.
I've heard a lot of reading aloud, and I don't think I ever heard
anyone ever read poetry (Frost was her favorite) the way she could.
She ruined, at the tender age of 12 or so, The Witch of Coos for me,
even though I am not sure I understood it all the way through. She
made it into musical drama.
There are two recordings I'd give anything to have. One is of her,
reading anything, and the other is of my cello teacher playing Bach or
even the Arpeggione
Memory will have to do....it just really can't quite be shared.
Pat
Dec 27, 2011, 6:09:23 PM12/27/11
to
On Dec 27, 11:49 am, "richer...@hotnail.com" <richer...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> The most amazing experience perhaps, I had in public school at a time
> when, in the public schools, teaching was a calling.
>
====================================
The law of unintended consequences is responsible for this. I have
written about this before, but when you and I were young, a great many
of the brightest and most talented women in the country were
schoolteachers, simply because that profession was about the only one
open easily accessible to them when they were of college age. A forty-
year old teacher when I was 10-15 would have been born circa 1920.
In 1940 there were 4,000 women lawyers in the entire country. There
are more than 900,000 lawyers in the country today, and while only 20%
of the lawyers over 55 are women, about half of the lawyers who are 35
and under are women. A quick extrapolation suggests that about 250,000
of the 900,000 American lawyers are women. That's a lot of
intelligent women who are no longer in the pool of school-teaching
talent. And that ignores the progress women have made in medicine **,
business, journalism, and other professions.
** There was not a single commissioned female MD in the American
military before WW II.
A second - and perhaps even more deleterious example of how good
things can have very unfortunate side effects was the effect that
relatively open housing had on the inner cities. Up until the 1960's
or thereabouts, at least in the north and midwest, most of the best
and the brightest black Americans -- doctors and lawyers and teachers
and preachers - lived in 'the community' and provided middle-class
incomes, middle-class stability and middle-class role models for those
struggling at the bottom rung of the social ladder. In the late
1960's and 70's the 'talented tenth,' as W.E.B Dubois 'Dubed' them,
began making their way to the suburbs, leaving behind, in many cities,
an urban core bereft of leadership and examplars.
Pat
wrote:
>
> The most amazing experience perhaps, I had in public school at a time
> when, in the public schools, teaching was a calling.
>
The law of unintended consequences is responsible for this. I have
written about this before, but when you and I were young, a great many
of the brightest and most talented women in the country were
schoolteachers, simply because that profession was about the only one
open easily accessible to them when they were of college age. A forty-
year old teacher when I was 10-15 would have been born circa 1920.
In 1940 there were 4,000 women lawyers in the entire country. There
are more than 900,000 lawyers in the country today, and while only 20%
of the lawyers over 55 are women, about half of the lawyers who are 35
and under are women. A quick extrapolation suggests that about 250,000
of the 900,000 American lawyers are women. That's a lot of
intelligent women who are no longer in the pool of school-teaching
talent. And that ignores the progress women have made in medicine **,
business, journalism, and other professions.
** There was not a single commissioned female MD in the American
military before WW II.
A second - and perhaps even more deleterious example of how good
things can have very unfortunate side effects was the effect that
relatively open housing had on the inner cities. Up until the 1960's
or thereabouts, at least in the north and midwest, most of the best
and the brightest black Americans -- doctors and lawyers and teachers
and preachers - lived in 'the community' and provided middle-class
incomes, middle-class stability and middle-class role models for those
struggling at the bottom rung of the social ladder. In the late
1960's and 70's the 'talented tenth,' as W.E.B Dubois 'Dubed' them,
began making their way to the suburbs, leaving behind, in many cities,
an urban core bereft of leadership and examplars.
Pat
chromolume
Dec 27, 2011, 11:30:03 PM12/27/11
to
On Dec 27, 2:49 pm, "richer...@hotnail.com" <richer...@gmail.com>
wrote:
the marvelous "Frostiana" choral cycle. (Though musically, my favorite
in the set is the final song, "Something Like A Star.")
I can think of one "unauthorized" setting, which is to sing the words
of "Stopping By Woods" to the tune of "Hernando's Hideway." ;-)
wrote:
> To keep this within vocal music, there was apparently an unauthorized
> song based on the Frost poem, for a while.
Well, there IS the authorized choral setting by Randall Thompson, in
> song based on the Frost poem, for a while.
the marvelous "Frostiana" choral cycle. (Though musically, my favorite
in the set is the final song, "Something Like A Star.")
I can think of one "unauthorized" setting, which is to sing the words
of "Stopping By Woods" to the tune of "Hernando's Hideway." ;-)
rich...@gmail.com
Dec 28, 2011, 1:54:21 AM12/28/11
to
As to Hernando, iamb letting you get away with that. Alternatively I
could say, "Funny, I never thought of Frost written for the
xylophone," or, "Yes, Frank Loesser was a very versatile composer.".
But I don't have the heart.
chromolume
Dec 28, 2011, 2:49:02 AM12/28/11
to
On Dec 28, 1:54 am, "richer...@hotnail.com" <richer...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> But I don't have the heart.
Well, Tin Man, you'll have to go to Arlen and Harburg for a song about
that. ;-)
And, Frank Loesser was indeed a very versatile composer. But I'm not
sure what that has to do with the discussion, lol.
wrote:
> But I don't have the heart.
that. ;-)
And, Frank Loesser was indeed a very versatile composer. But I'm not
sure what that has to do with the discussion, lol.
rich...@gmail.com
Dec 28, 2011, 6:30:47 AM12/28/11
to
written by Frank and given to the guys.
rich...@gmail.com
Dec 28, 2011, 10:41:18 AM12/28/11
to
good of society (sic) vrs. the good of individuals. I agree with your
analysis, as far as it goes. I see it as much in terms of the so-
called 'glass ceiling'. In sociology, one talks about the
'feminization' of certain professions (psychology is as good an
example as law), which isn't a comment about men in dresses - that's
what we leave to the British - but about the increasing infusion of
women into certain professions. For various reasons, it's not always a
'good thing' as far as society or the specific profession is concerned
- that's not a statement about the ability of individual women, or
women as a group, vis a vis men, but there is probably, sadly, some
advantage to certain professions (and to society) at certain points in
their development, in being 'elitist'. That needn't be male elitist,
but elitist.
What your post goes to in part is that societies in the past have been
in certain ways far richer, for some, and perhaps in terms of
historical value, when they have profited off the improperly (ie,
inadequately) rewarded compensation of others. I mean 'compensation'
in its broadest terms - not just money, but recognition, and even
citizenship or access to basic rights. (You know, Pat, including
marriage).
There are lots of reasons for civilizations to collapse - in fact,
there is no good reason for them to exist forever. But it always
strikes me that one of the forces that frequently hastens this
collapse is the snowballing effect of perpetually increasing 'rights'
and 'privileges' beyond what any assimilation or acculturation can
bear. At its heart, this is the basic line between liberals and
conservatives in this society, at least.
That's not to say, by the way, that a lack of discrimination (in the
techinical, statistical sense, and not in the sense of discrimination
based on birth categories) is the only reason societies decline.
There's a lot of writing that the Ottoman society and the Arab
societies in general declined as quickly and remarkably as they did
because they were (and are) so male-centric.
All best
chromolume
Dec 28, 2011, 11:16:36 AM12/28/11
to
On Dec 28, 6:30 am, "richer...@hotnail.com" <richer...@gmail.com>
wrote:
It seems Loesser gets "accused" of all sorts of ghostwriting, lol -
it's also rumored that he wrote "My White Knight" for Meredith
Willson. Of these two possibilities, I'm much more inclined to believe
the story about "My White Knight" (it does have a different feel than
anything else in "The Music Man") than about "Hernando's
Hideaway" (conversely, it feels very much like the Adler/Ross style,
and hardly more sophisticated than their other songs) - but I doubt
Frank really wrote either of them. (But, thanks for the info - I
didn't know there was a Loesser story about "Hernando's.")
wrote:
it's also rumored that he wrote "My White Knight" for Meredith
Willson. Of these two possibilities, I'm much more inclined to believe
the story about "My White Knight" (it does have a different feel than
anything else in "The Music Man") than about "Hernando's
Hideaway" (conversely, it feels very much like the Adler/Ross style,
and hardly more sophisticated than their other songs) - but I doubt
Frank really wrote either of them. (But, thanks for the info - I
didn't know there was a Loesser story about "Hernando's.")
Pat
Dec 28, 2011, 12:02:57 PM12/28/11
to
On Dec 28, 7:41 am, "richer...@hotnail.com" <richer...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> What your post goes to in part is that societies in the past have been
> in certain ways far richer, for some, and perhaps in terms of
> historical value, when they have profited off the improperly (ie,
> inadequately) rewarded compensation of others. I mean 'compensation'
> in its broadest terms - not just money, but recognition, and even
> citizenship or access to basic rights. >
You seem to be not far from saying that slavery has a plus side.
> There are lots of reasons for civilizations to collapse - in fact,
> there is no good reason for them to exist forever. But it always
> strikes me that one of the forces that frequently hastens this
> collapse is the snowballing effect of perpetually increasing 'rights'
> and 'privileges' beyond what any assimilation or acculturation can
> bear. At its heart, this is the basic line between liberals and
> conservatives in this society, at least.
>
The problem is not that the awarding to women of the right to pursue
any profession contributes to the increasing disfunction in our
society. The problem is that our values are so screwed up. We reward
rock stars and football players and people who are good at shuffling
money and securities around cleverly while failing to properly reward
the people responsible for the formal education of our progeny, those
who will have to carry our civilization forward when we are gone.
Clearly there are a lot of lousy teachers and professors in the world
-- but if we rewarded teachers and professors remotely as handsomely
as we reward, say, college football coaches, and found reliable
methods of measuring their success, and drew the best and the
brightest into that profession, we would have little to fear regarding
the decline of our civilization.
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."
Incidentally, the preceding quotation seems to have originated with
Derek Bok, who was president of Harvard a few years ago. Bok, by way
of my ceaseless impulse toward on-topicness, was the grandson of Mary
Louise Curtis Bok, who founded (along with Leopold Stokowski and
others) the Curtis Institute in Philadelphia. She later married Efrem
Zimbalist (the violinist, not the Sunset Stripper). Mary Louise got
her philanthropic money from her papa, whose Curtis Publishing empire
included the Saturday Evening Post, the Ladies' Home Journal et al.
Pat
wrote:
>
> What your post goes to in part is that societies in the past have been
> in certain ways far richer, for some, and perhaps in terms of
> historical value, when they have profited off the improperly (ie,
> inadequately) rewarded compensation of others. I mean 'compensation'
> in its broadest terms - not just money, but recognition, and even
> citizenship or access to basic rights. >
> There are lots of reasons for civilizations to collapse - in fact,
> there is no good reason for them to exist forever. But it always
> strikes me that one of the forces that frequently hastens this
> collapse is the snowballing effect of perpetually increasing 'rights'
> and 'privileges' beyond what any assimilation or acculturation can
> bear. At its heart, this is the basic line between liberals and
> conservatives in this society, at least.
>
any profession contributes to the increasing disfunction in our
society. The problem is that our values are so screwed up. We reward
rock stars and football players and people who are good at shuffling
money and securities around cleverly while failing to properly reward
the people responsible for the formal education of our progeny, those
who will have to carry our civilization forward when we are gone.
Clearly there are a lot of lousy teachers and professors in the world
-- but if we rewarded teachers and professors remotely as handsomely
as we reward, say, college football coaches, and found reliable
methods of measuring their success, and drew the best and the
brightest into that profession, we would have little to fear regarding
the decline of our civilization.
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."
Incidentally, the preceding quotation seems to have originated with
Derek Bok, who was president of Harvard a few years ago. Bok, by way
of my ceaseless impulse toward on-topicness, was the grandson of Mary
Louise Curtis Bok, who founded (along with Leopold Stokowski and
others) the Curtis Institute in Philadelphia. She later married Efrem
Zimbalist (the violinist, not the Sunset Stripper). Mary Louise got
her philanthropic money from her papa, whose Curtis Publishing empire
included the Saturday Evening Post, the Ladies' Home Journal et al.
Pat
rich...@gmail.com
Dec 28, 2011, 12:38:41 PM12/28/11
to
slavery,. If there were not, you wouldn't have found it in so many
societies for such a huge part of human history. That doesn't make it
right, but I hope you aren't saying that Athens - perhaps now we'll
get a comment from the home-bound - would have been more creative or
'better' without slavery, for example. It has been a fact of 'life'
for most of human history. That doesn't make it 'right' or 'good' or
desirable, but it is hardly 'only ' a negative for the societ(ies)
which have had it. The peculiarity of American and, to a slightly
lesser extent, New World slavery was that it was almost exclusively
race-based, and, being race-based, it became a condition which thus
was 'naturally' passed down through generations. I don't think you can
find any other slavery (though I am not an expert) which was so
entirely race based, and which thus took on the 'properties' of being
presumed to descend genetically through generations as yet unborn.
.So, there are 'advantages' to slavery, of course. And isn't selective
advantage part of the theory of Darwinism, or would you like to share
with us, Pat, your conversion from liberal humanism to that old time
religion? I look forward to worshipping right next to you, Pat.
You''ll always be welcome in my church, Pat, although you may want to
dress for the ocassion.
I think our values are screwed up - that's easy to determine if you
look at the relative paucity of football games to basketball - but I
don't think it's about income distribution. My teachers (and probably
yours) weren't unionized, and they were a huge amount better, for all
the reasons we agree, than the bulk of public school teachers now. It
doesn't all nearly come down to money, otherwise people wouldn't write
plays and music and create sculpture and write books the way they do.
It's much more complex, and deals with issues of personal values and,
more concretely, the unwillingness of society to fund what it believes
in - not through simple salaries, which are probably pretty accurate,
but through arts programs and so on.
In a sense, the problem is private education. If you somehow made a
'law' that everyone had to attend public school, I promise you that
there would be a complete about-face in terms of what is allocated to
education.
All best
Pat
Dec 29, 2011, 9:02:55 AM12/29/11
to
On Dec 28, 9:38 am, "richer...@hotnail.com" <richer...@gmail.com>
wrote:
There may be - other than the obvious advantage of providing free
labor for the mines and plantations of the wealthy - but you have yet
to name one. It is probably a short term convenience to the upper
class of a society, but in the long run it is dehumanizing to both
master and slave, and is ultimately a cancer on the society in which
it exists. That is why, with the single exception of sexual slavery,
it has virtually disappeared from the civilized world. Sexual slavery
is a convenience to some, too, and if you care to defend it, because
there are 'advantages to it,' be my guest.
> In a sense, the problem is private education. If you somehow made a
> 'law' that everyone had to attend public school, I promise you that
> there would be a complete about-face in terms of what is allocated to
> education.
>
I agree with that last paragraph. The LoUC took a terrible toll on
bussing, which was supposed to equalize - or at least make more equal
- the educational experience of black and white, rich and poor. In
the event, whites fled both the cities, and when bussing sometimes
extended into the suburbs, the public school system itself, rather
than allow their children to be educated alongside poor black kids.
Doing so stripped the public schools of many of the best teachers and
many of the best students. Is it any wonder that so many public
schools are in such deplorable shape now?
I, for one, did not anticipate the lengths to which people would go to
'protect' their children from urban youth.
Pat
wrote:
labor for the mines and plantations of the wealthy - but you have yet
to name one. It is probably a short term convenience to the upper
class of a society, but in the long run it is dehumanizing to both
master and slave, and is ultimately a cancer on the society in which
it exists. That is why, with the single exception of sexual slavery,
it has virtually disappeared from the civilized world. Sexual slavery
is a convenience to some, too, and if you care to defend it, because
there are 'advantages to it,' be my guest.
> In a sense, the problem is private education. If you somehow made a
> 'law' that everyone had to attend public school, I promise you that
> there would be a complete about-face in terms of what is allocated to
> education.
>
bussing, which was supposed to equalize - or at least make more equal
- the educational experience of black and white, rich and poor. In
the event, whites fled both the cities, and when bussing sometimes
extended into the suburbs, the public school system itself, rather
than allow their children to be educated alongside poor black kids.
Doing so stripped the public schools of many of the best teachers and
many of the best students. Is it any wonder that so many public
schools are in such deplorable shape now?
I, for one, did not anticipate the lengths to which people would go to
'protect' their children from urban youth.
Pat
rich...@gmail.com
Dec 29, 2011, 12:23:49 PM12/29/11
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
What I don't understand is why the liberal establishment is so quiet
about home schooling. I can't imagine anything more fundamentally
undemocratic, much less misguided educationally and socially. It
actually makes incest look healthy. We probably have to live with the
issue of parochial education, it's such a fundamental part of the
society, and education has never been a constitutional guarantee at
the federal level, but why is everyone so quiet on this one, I wonder.
As to slavery, it is probably largely a dead duck going forward
(although there seem to be remnants of it in the Arab world in
particular), aside from sexual slavery, about which I know nothing,
although you'll be the first to know, Pat, if Tim Tebow calls me. It's
not a matter of defending it or even opposing it.....slavery has had
many forms and meanings over time, and the notion that it was
'dehumanizing' to everyone involved, although we'd all say so now (I
hope), has hardly been the way either slaves or their masters thought
about it. Lots of things are dehumanizing to people, Pat, including a
President who denies marriage to some people on the basis of his
religious beliefs, but I bet he doesn't think it's dehumanizing to
him. Do you think it's dehumanizing to him? You've never said. And I
bet he doesn't care if it's dehumanizing to us.
I think, incidentally, that the 'free labor' part of slavery is only
one element of its attraction. It's undoubtedly a major one, but the
mere existence of slaves creates a sense of valor and value in the
masters. Again, slavery in the South and in the rest of the Americas
was atypical of slavery historically - not only because of race, but
because slavery at that time tragically 'fit' into the early stages of
the industrial revolution.That is hardly the whole history of slavery,
or its meaning.
As I think you know, Marxists, who have their own pretty sophisticated
worked-out analysis of history, don't focus on slavery nearly as much
as they focus on wage-slaves.
My view on this has always been somewhat Marxian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lad5bc6Gpb4
All best
Pat
Dec 29, 2011, 2:07:49 PM12/29/11
to
On Dec 29, 9:23 am, "richer...@hotnail.com" <richer...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
knowledge gleaned from the interchange of ideas with people more or
less unlike yourself in age, experience, outlook and attitude.
Why, look at how much you've learned about politics and economics from
me! <g>
I can't imagine anything more fundamentally
> undemocratic, much less misguided educationally and socially. It
> actually makes incest look healthy. We probably have to live with the
> issue of parochial education, it's such a fundamental part of the
> society, and education has never been a constitutional guarantee at
> the federal level, but why is everyone so quiet on this one, I wonder.
I had a parochial education through 8th grade, and have to confess
that I got a good foundation. Parochial schools, at least Catholic
schools, do have a great advantage over non-parochial schools. It's
one thing to tell a fourth grader that he'll get in trouble if he
doesn't turn in his homework on time; it's quite another to intimate
that he'll burn in purgatory or worse. Such subtle reminders
concentrate the mind wonderfully in my experience. I threw all the
religion under the bus decades ago, but I still don't speed and only
rarely jaywalk. Good old Catholic conditioning -- and the
Nuns dare call it 'reason'.
> As to slavery, it is probably largely a dead duck going forward
> (although there seem to be remnants of it in the Arab world in
> particular), aside from sexual slavery, about which I know nothing,
> although you'll be the first to know, Pat, if Tim Tebow calls me. It's
> not a matter of defending it or even opposing it.....slavery has had
> many forms and meanings over time, and the notion that it was
> 'dehumanizing' to everyone involved, although we'd all say so now (I
> hope), has hardly been the way either slaves or their masters thought
> about it.
Richard, in every slave-holding society, there have been some slaves
who were treated with relative generosity by their masters. I can't
prove it, but I suspect that even in the hallowed Age of Pericles
there were dozens, perhaps hundreds, of slaves toiling away in ghastly
mines and the like for every respected tutor or housekeeper or wine
steward. And the same in the American south. Yeah, maybe we wouldn't
have the Pyramids or the Great Wall had it not been for slave labor,
but it's likely that tens of thousands were worked to death to build
those monuments.
Lots of things are dehumanizing to people, Pat, including a
> President who denies marriage to some people on the basis of his
> religious beliefs, but I bet he doesn't think it's dehumanizing to
> him. Do you think it's dehumanizing to him? You've never said. And I
> bet he doesn't care if it's dehumanizing to us.
Luckily all that will change when Bachmann or Santorum or Romney is
elected president, right?
exists iin some people could be reasonably well satisfied by being an
employer or an officer in the military.
Or a wife. <g>
Pat
wrote:
>
> What I don't understand is why the liberal establishment is so quiet
> about home schooling.
I agree. One of the most important aspects of education is the
> about home schooling.
knowledge gleaned from the interchange of ideas with people more or
less unlike yourself in age, experience, outlook and attitude.
Why, look at how much you've learned about politics and economics from
me! <g>
I can't imagine anything more fundamentally
> undemocratic, much less misguided educationally and socially. It
> actually makes incest look healthy. We probably have to live with the
> issue of parochial education, it's such a fundamental part of the
> society, and education has never been a constitutional guarantee at
> the federal level, but why is everyone so quiet on this one, I wonder.
that I got a good foundation. Parochial schools, at least Catholic
schools, do have a great advantage over non-parochial schools. It's
one thing to tell a fourth grader that he'll get in trouble if he
doesn't turn in his homework on time; it's quite another to intimate
that he'll burn in purgatory or worse. Such subtle reminders
concentrate the mind wonderfully in my experience. I threw all the
religion under the bus decades ago, but I still don't speed and only
rarely jaywalk. Good old Catholic conditioning -- and the
Nuns dare call it 'reason'.
> As to slavery, it is probably largely a dead duck going forward
> (although there seem to be remnants of it in the Arab world in
> particular), aside from sexual slavery, about which I know nothing,
> although you'll be the first to know, Pat, if Tim Tebow calls me. It's
> not a matter of defending it or even opposing it.....slavery has had
> many forms and meanings over time, and the notion that it was
> 'dehumanizing' to everyone involved, although we'd all say so now (I
> hope), has hardly been the way either slaves or their masters thought
> about it.
who were treated with relative generosity by their masters. I can't
prove it, but I suspect that even in the hallowed Age of Pericles
there were dozens, perhaps hundreds, of slaves toiling away in ghastly
mines and the like for every respected tutor or housekeeper or wine
steward. And the same in the American south. Yeah, maybe we wouldn't
have the Pyramids or the Great Wall had it not been for slave labor,
but it's likely that tens of thousands were worked to death to build
those monuments.
Lots of things are dehumanizing to people, Pat, including a
> President who denies marriage to some people on the basis of his
> religious beliefs, but I bet he doesn't think it's dehumanizing to
> him. Do you think it's dehumanizing to him? You've never said. And I
> bet he doesn't care if it's dehumanizing to us.
elected president, right?
>
> I think, incidentally, that the 'free labor' part of slavery is only
> one element of its attraction. It's undoubtedly a major one, but the
> mere existence of slaves creates a sense of valor and value in the
> masters.
I wouldn't know, but I think that whatever psychic need for mastery
> I think, incidentally, that the 'free labor' part of slavery is only
> one element of its attraction. It's undoubtedly a major one, but the
> mere existence of slaves creates a sense of valor and value in the
> masters.
exists iin some people could be reasonably well satisfied by being an
employer or an officer in the military.
Or a wife. <g>
Pat
rich...@gmail.com
Dec 29, 2011, 2:47:57 PM12/29/11
to
I don't begrudge, by the way, parochial schools, and in New York, at
least, they are, for the lower middle classes, the private schools of
choice (without the applicants giving a hang about religion) to get
out of the public school system. The main two advantages are that 1)
schools don't have to take everyone (and more importantly, can expell
students or discipline them without the same level of governmental
intrusion) and 2) teachers, who seem to be paid somewhat better, feel
that the kids (and the parents) are there because they want to be.
Would be curious what Paul thinks, and may email him and ask him to
join in.
I just can't imagine what anyone thinks they are doing with home
schooling. I mean, do they wear bonnets and long dresses (the girls, I
mean). And I agree the whole idea is to bump into different people.
That doesn't mean there shouldn't be schools for the gifted and for
special interests and so on, but the whole idea is to be exposed to
things you really don't want to be exposed to and wouldn't on your
own. Maybe it's a complete prejudice on my part, but I just keep
having this image of some article I saw in Life or Look or something
in the sixties about kids whose parents were KKK, and they were
indoctrinating their kids exactly the same. It just seems creepy
All best
All best
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