Jessye Norman: voice vs waistline
Rosario Gennaro
I attended the Marian Anderson gala the other week and
when Jessye Norman came on stage I was among those in
the audience who gasped: you could actually see her
waistline!!!! She wore a really nice brown dress which
highlighted her new almost slender figure.
Then she proceeded to butcher Brahms' Alto Rapsody.
She was the most disappointing act of the evening, which incidentally
reached her height when Roberta Peters recalled Anderson's
debut at the MET (she almost cried and you could hear plenty
of audience members sobbing).
Personally I have no problem with singers' size and weight.
It does not bother me. But in this particular case I am wondering
if dieting and going through these dramatic changes can have an adverse
effect on the voice of a singer ... take for example the big
debate about Maria Callas.
Comments?
Rosario
James Jorden
Rosario Gennaro wrote:
>
> I attended the Marian Anderson gala the other week and
> when Jessye Norman came on stage I was among those in
> the audience who gasped: you could actually see her
> waistline!!!! She wore a really nice brown dress which
> highlighted her new almost slender figure.
>
> Then she proceeded to butcher Brahms' Alto Rapsody.
> Personally I have no problem with singers' size and weight.
> It does not bother me. But in this particular case I am wondering
> if dieting and going through these dramatic changes can have an
> adverse effect on the voice of a singer ... take for example the big
> debate about Maria Callas.
I think the consensus is that careful and gradual weight loss (achieved
through a combination of sensible diet and moderate exercise) is not
damaging to the voice. The singers I know who have followed this regime
report that they find the voice seems to be in *better* shape once the
body is in better shape.
We should keep in mind that the voices of Norman and Callas were always
somewhat problematic.
The other issue is that opera is not just about singing; even if an
artist cannot look properly slim for Violetta or Mimi, she should be
physically mobile enough to move gracefully. In other words, she needs
to slim enough so that the audience forgets (or anyway overlooks) her
appearance once the performance begins.
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre
"Without Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals, there is no theater."
-- Mel Brooks in "To Be or Not to Be"
James Jorden
Rosario Gennaro wrote:
>
> I attended the Marian Anderson gala the other week and
> when Jessye Norman came on stage I was among those in
> the audience who gasped: you could actually see her
> waistline!!!! She wore a really nice brown dress which
> highlighted her new almost slender figure.
I guess La Norman just woke up one day and said, "I just can't bear any
more verbal abuse from Karen Mercedes. Antoinette [devoted maid],
telephonez Mme. Susan Powter tout de suite!"
Shahrdad
As a medical doctor, I believe that even though being overweight has
nothing to do with good vocal production or a sizeable voice, the loss of
weight through dieting is detrimental to a voice, especially big voices
such as Norman or young Callas. As one looses weight through dieting, he
or she not only loses fat, but also muscule, some say as much as 30-40%.
Since most big voices are essentially rebellious by nature, these singers
need every bit of muscular strength they have to keep the voice well
supported and under control. As the singer loses the weight and muscular
strength, she is still going to be singing with the technique formed while
heavy, and this can lead to vocal damage. You can hear that in Norman
right now.
If you listen to Callas prior to 1953, the sheer power of the voice is
quite amazing, sometimes even superhuman (such as the famous Mexico City
Aida with its E flat). But if you listen to her in 1954 with she was 140
lbs (down from 220), though still powerful, it does not have the full force
of the year before. And in 1959 when she was 110 lbs, the voice is smaller
still. With Callas, some of the lightening of the voice may also have been
intentional, in order to make her voice match with her thin new image. Who
knows! She always wanted to be like Audrey Hepburn.
Now, if these singers had lost the weight with aerobic excercise mixed with
a great deal of weight training (especially the abdomen and flanks) and no
dieting, their voices would likely never have changed that much. One can
only guess.
Rosario Gennaro <ros...@heory.lcs.mit.edu> wrote in article
<3319B4...@heory.lcs.mit.edu>...
> I attended the Marian Anderson gala the other week and
> when Jessye Norman came on stage I was among those in
> the audience who gasped: you could actually see her
> waistline!!!! She wore a really nice brown dress which
> highlighted her new almost slender figure.
>
> Then she proceeded to butcher Brahms' Alto Rapsody.
> She was the most disappointing act of the evening, which incidentally
> reached her height when Roberta Peters recalled Anderson's
> debut at the MET (she almost cried and you could hear plenty
> of audience members sobbing).
>
> Personally I have no problem with singers' size and weight.
> It does not bother me. But in this particular case I am wondering
> if dieting and going through these dramatic changes can have an adverse
> effect on the voice of a singer ... take for example the big
> debate about Maria Callas.
>
> Comments?
> Rosario
>
Fritz Lange
In article <01bc2763$73a88200$aa0734ce@shahrdad>, "Shahrdad "
<Shah...@msn.com> wrote (in part):
> As the singer loses the weight and muscular
> strength, she is still going to be singing with the technique formed while
> heavy, and this can lead to vocal damage. You can hear that in Norman
> right now.
>
Before r.m.o existed, there was a discussion on r.m.c. about the effect on
the voice of significant weight loss. One of the participants was a
singer from the Boston area who, herself, had gone through a weight loss.
She mentioned that she was struggling with the impact that it had on her
voice. She felt that the loss of muscle tissue had caused the changes.
Fritz Lange
Shahrdad
James Jorden <jjo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<3319C3...@ix.netcom.com>...
> The other issue is that opera is not just about singing; even if an
> artist cannot look properly slim for Violetta or Mimi, she should be
> physically mobile enough to move gracefully. In other words, she needs
> to slim enough so that the audience forgets (or anyway overlooks) her
> appearance once the performance begins.
>
> --
Amen to that James. I had heard Jane Eaglen's voice on CD and liked it
very much, but I was horrified when I saw her on the James Levine Gala. It
had been a long time since I had seen anyone that obese, though in my job,
I deal with a lot of obese people. It reminded me of what Sir Thomas
Beecham told Walter Legge about Lina Pagluigi, "My dear boy, we can't let
her be seen. She looks like a tea cozy." How she could be a believable
heroin on stage is beyond me. She was so morbidly obese that her arms
wouldn't even hang vertically when she held them at her side. As glorious
as one's singing may be, he or she MUST be in a shape as to be presentable
and believable on stage, otherwise she should stick to concerts and
oratorios. After all, who could ever blame the tenor for wanting to run
off with Adalgisa or Gutrune when his Norma or Brunnhilde looks like that?
And what stallion could ever carry that Brunnhilde on its back?
S.
Terrymelin
Baloney. I saw Jane Eaglen sing and act Brunnhilde in the complete Ring in
Chicago last year and, believe me, she was certainly believable. Vocally
she was the best I've heard since Nilsson and she acted the part
beautifully (not quite as good as Behrens, but then who is?).
I, for one, do not want to live in a society where you have to be Kate
Moss to be considered "believable" on stage.
Terry Ellsworth
JJ
In article <01bc2827$dba83200$700734ce@my-computer>, "Shahrdad"
<Shah...@msn.com> wrote:
I vaguely remember something really fascinating that W.H. Auden wrote. He
said that he went to see two unattractive, fat singers in "Tristan Und
Isolde" and then saw the movie based on the story of "Tristan Und Isolde"
by Jean Cocteau called "The Eternal Return". Auden wrote that even though
Cocteau had cast two fantastically beautiful people in the roles, he found
the opera to be a more erotic experience.
Jon
James Jorden
Various posters have written:
> I vaguely remember something really fascinating that W.H. Auden wrote. > He said that he went to see two unattractive, fat singers in "Tristan > Und Isolde" and then saw the movie based on the story of "Tristan Und > Isolde" by Jean Cocteau called "The Eternal Return". Auden wrote that > even though Cocteau had cast two fantastically beautiful people in the > roles, he found the opera to be a more erotic experience.
> I, for one, do not want to live in a society where you have to be Kate
> Moss to be considered "believable" on stage.
Who said "fantastically beautiful"? Who said "Kate Moss"? All I ask
for is a singer who can resemble the character enough to avoid
distracting the audience from his singing. Joan Sutherland almost
always achieved that goal (and in a recent interview revealed that she
dieted constantly to keep her weight at a reasonable level); Monterrat
Caballe, when properly costumed and made up, has always looked
glamorous; even Pavarotti up until about 10 years ago was not
*distractingly* large. Gross obesity is not only antithetical to
dramatic illusion (and opera is at least in part a dramatic art) but
surely the extra effort of hauling around 50 or 100 extra pounds must be
exhausting, and therefore harmful to health in general and to the vocal
instrument in particular.
Yes, there are some very fat singers who have made long, successful
careers. But there are also plenty who have to sing whole performances
seated (Pavarotti) or who drastically limit the roles they are willing
to undertake for fear of embarassment (Norman) or who may be forced
prematurely into the heaviest roles because of their physical size
(Eaglen).
Moderation in all things leads to a healthy artist, and thus better art.
Brian G. Moore
In article <01bc2763$73a88200$aa0734ce@shahrdad>,
Shahrdad <Shah...@msn.com> wrote:
...
>
>If you listen to Callas prior to 1953, the sheer power of the voice is
>quite amazing, sometimes even superhuman (such as the famous Mexico City
>Aida with its E flat). But if you listen to her in 1954 with she was 140
>lbs (down from 220), though still powerful, it does not have the full force
>of the year before.
So, the famous '53 Tosca recording with di Stefano and Gobbi--is that
the fat or the thin version?
--
Brian G. Moore
mo...@euler.bd.psu.edu
Fritz Lange
> James Jorden <jjo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <3319C3...@ix.netcom.com>...
> > The other issue is that opera is not just about singing; even if an
> > artist cannot look properly slim for Violetta or Mimi, she should be
> > physically mobile enough to move gracefully. In other words, she needs
> > to slim enough so that the audience forgets (or anyway overlooks) her
> > appearance once the performance begins.
> >
> > --
> Amen to that James. I had heard Jane Eaglen's voice on CD and liked it
> very much, but I was horrified when I saw her on the James Levine Gala. It
> had been a long time since I had seen anyone that obese, though in my job,
> I deal with a lot of obese people. It reminded me of what Sir Thomas
> Beecham told Walter Legge about Lina Pagluigi, "My dear boy, we can't let
> her be seen. She looks like a tea cozy." How she could be a believable
> heroin on stage is beyond me. She was so morbidly obese that her arms
> wouldn't even hang vertically when she held them at her side. As glorious
> as one's singing may be, he or she MUST be in a shape as to be presentable
> and believable on stage, otherwise she should stick to concerts and
> oratorios. After all, who could ever blame the tenor for wanting to run
> off with Adalgisa or Gutrune when his Norma or Brunnhilde looks like that?
> And what stallion could ever carry that Brunnhilde on its back?
>
> S.
It is a special treat when the performers not only sing well, but also
look the part. That happens once in a while. I still remember the
intermission discussions when Lyric Opera of Chicago did MacBeth in �because *all* the singers looked the part.
After seeing both Marton and Eaglen in Lyric箂 �performances of
Siegfried, I chose to see the �cycle with Eaglen. Her size was a
distraction when she first appeared in Die Walkuere, but as the Ring
developed, it became less and less noticeable. The final scene in
Goetterdaemmerung was incredible. She simply stood there and sang; there
was no sound from the audience, no coughs, not anything. We were not
seeing Jane, we saw Bruennhilde.
To me, this was in stark contrast to Marton箂 performance a few weeks
earlier in the same part. She is a very dedicated actress and her
involvement was incredible, but her wobbly singing called attention to
itself and broke the magic.
I did not find Eaglen箂 performance at the Levine Gala nearly as
fascinating, probably because it was an isolated excerpt, not the
culmination of the entire opera.
fritz lange
Michael Black
I must admit that I haven't been following this thread, only because
this is an old topic that goes nowhere.
But I am of the group that doesn't care what the person looks like as
long as they can sing. And isn't that what opera *really* is about?
Beautiful singing, that's what does it for me.
I also think how one feels about a singer's weight depends upon how that
singer actually carries themself around. Does that make sense? Let me
see if I can explain. Take Ruth Ann Swenson. She's no toothpick, but
the way she carries herself and the way she presents herself, you
wouldn't even really think much about her weight. And as most of you
all know, I think she's drop dead gorgeous nonetheless! :) Ruthie, if
you're reading this, give me a ring! :-)
Also, Deborah Voigt presents herself in a beautiful manner as well. But
poor Pav, he always looks like a slob now. Just because someone may not
be skinny doesn't mean that they still can't be beautiful.
Ok, I'm done.
--
Michael Black's Opera House
Michael Black, Youngstown, Ohio
http://www.stairway.bc.ca/bjorling
Jussi Rules!!!
Greg Ellis
Shahrdad <Shah...@msn.com> wrote in article
<01bc2827$dba83200$700734ce@my-computer>...
> After all, who could ever blame the tenor for wanting to run
> off with Adalgisa or Gutrune when his Norma or Brunnhilde looks like
that?
> And what stallion could ever carry that Brunnhilde on its back?
>
This reminded me of a somewhat different problem which my wife had when
Ruggerio Raimondi played Scarpia in the TV production. She tells me that
as nice a guy as Domingo's Cavaradossi was, Ruggerio Scarpia was sexually
irresistable!!! As a consequence the whole thing lacked credibility!!!!
(PS. Such is the frankness of modern marriage!!)
Greg Ellis
Shahrdad
That is definitely the fat version, though for recordings, she always
scaled her voice down. It you ever get your hands on the Mexico City Aida
from 1951, you'll have fun hearing her drown out Del Monaco, Dominquez, the
other soloists, the chorus, and the orchestra. Lots of fun!
To hear the full effect of the voice change with the weight loss, get the
Cavalleria/Pagliacci set. Cavalleria is in the fat voice, Pagliacci, with
the thin voice, 1953 and 1954 respectively. The difference in the sheer
weight and girth and volume of the sound is very obvious.
S.
Brian G. Moore <mo...@onsager.bd.psu.edu> wrote in article
<5fhg3s$n...@onsager.bd.psu.edu>...
J. Miller
Greg Ellis <gre...@onaustralia.com.au> wrote in article
<01bc28f7$dcdc75c0$4611868b@htermann>...
>
>
> This reminded me of a somewhat different problem which my wife had when
> Ruggerio Raimondi played Scarpia in the TV production. She tells me that
> as nice a guy as Domingo's Cavaradossi was, Ruggerio Scarpia was sexually
> irresistable!!! As a consequence the whole thing lacked credibility!!!!
>
JM
dgable
I once heard Charles Rosen say in a public lecture that he heard Callas
in Norma before she lost weight, adding that it didn't matter, because
you couldn't see her through the tears.
- David
Mark R. Penney
>as nice a guy as Domingo's Cavaradossi was, Ruggerio Scarpia was
>sexually
>irresistable!!! As a consequence the whole thing lacked
>credibility!!!!
>
>(PS. Such is the frankness of modern marriage!!)
>
>Greg Ellis
It seems to me that a sexually charged Scarpia would make the
whole thing more interesting. At the very least, it would give
the person playing Tosca some interesting psychological puzzles to
work through.
--M.
James Jorden
J. Miller wrote:
> Doesn't everyone consider Scarpia to be more "fun" than Cavaradossi?
If they do, the baritone's not doing his job. Scarpia gets pleasure
from rape, torture, mental abuse and, in a pinch, murder. An honest
portrayal of this character should fill the audience with revulsion.
Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of baritones who would prefer to be
liked...
Vinh Nguyen
Shahrdad (Shah...@msn.com) wrote:
: That is definitely the fat version, though for recordings, she always
: scaled her voice down. It you ever get your hands on the Mexico City Aida
: from 1951, you'll have fun hearing her drown out Del Monaco, Dominquez, the
: other soloists, the chorus, and the orchestra. Lots of fun!
: To hear the full effect of the voice change with the weight loss, get the
: Cavalleria/Pagliacci set. Cavalleria is in the fat voice, Pagliacci, with
: the thin voice, 1953 and 1954 respectively. The difference in the sheer
: weight and girth and volume of the sound is very obvious.
Have you ever given any thought to the fact that the two soprano roles
in this pair of operas are of different "voice types" (there goes this
contentious notion again), Santuzza being that of a spinto/dramatic and
Nedda that of a lyric/soubrette? Shouldn't it be naturally understandable
for Callas to modify her voice accordingly to better be in character with
the respective roles? The remarkable thing was that she's capable of
doing it more successfully than most of the very few who dared tackle
such a feat!
Vinh Nguyen
: S.
: >
ed waffle
In <331D17...@ix.netcom.com> James Jorden <jjo...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>J. Miller wrote:
>
>> Doesn't everyone consider Scarpia to be more "fun" than Cavaradossi?
>
>If they do, the baritone's not doing his job. Scarpia gets pleasure
>from rape, torture, mental abuse and, in a pinch, murder. An honest
>portrayal of this character should fill the audience with revulsion.
>
>Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of baritones who would prefer to
be
>liked...
>-
>
Or authors who can't solve a basic problem, which is the
attractiveness of the high energy content of evil men. Brecht wrote
about it in discussing the reaction the his "Resistable Rise of Arturo
Ui", which compared Hitler's coming to power with an Al Capone type
gangster in Chicago. Ui (Hitler) is the central character and the
audience begins to identify with him. (The fact that it is a farce
full of topical references to Austria in early 30s, many of which
today's audiences just do not get, does not help.)
There was a thread on this not too long ago--opera, because it is
SO extreme, has many of the really great bad guys in drama, from whom
much of the action will flow and who, because of this, will be
identified with by the audience.
Beethoven had no trouble with this, of course--NOBODY likes
Pizzaro, even with that killer aria "Ha, welch' ein Augenblick". But
other evil characters not only have great music but are the whole point
of the action. There would be no conflict in Tosca without Scarpia,
Otello and Desdemona would probably live happily ever after if Iago was
not around--others who know more than I can add to the list.
The point is that our ambivalent response to these monsters is yet
another indication of the power of the lyric stage.
ECW
David
I would be very interested in ideas of this theory in reverse. I have never
been fat and I'm quite tall (6'2") but over the last two years I've gained
aprox 30 pounds in weight. As a consequence I feel (and everyone else who
hears me) that my singing voice has also gained condsiderably in size.
Supporting my voice is also a lot more effortless. I can remember the
feeling of struggling a lot harder for lower body support when my waist was
around 30"....dca
Shahrdad <Shah...@msn.com> wrote in article
<01bc2763$73a88200$aa0734ce@shahrdad>...
> As a medical doctor, I believe that even though being overweight has
> nothing to do with good vocal production or a sizeable voice, the loss of
> weight through dieting is detrimental to a voice, especially big voices
> such as Norman or young Callas. As one looses weight through dieting, he
> or she not only loses fat, but also muscule, some say as much as 30-40%.
> Since most big voices are essentially rebellious by nature, these singers
> need every bit of muscular strength they have to keep the voice well
> supported and under control. As the singer loses the weight and muscular
> strength, she is still going to be singing with the technique formed
while
> heavy, and this can lead to vocal damage. You can hear that in Norman
> right now.
>
> If you listen to Callas prior to 1953, the sheer power of the voice is
> quite amazing, sometimes even superhuman (such as the famous Mexico City
> Aida with its E flat). But if you listen to her in 1954 with she was 140
> lbs (down from 220), though still powerful, it does not have the full
force
J. Miller
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. You have both completely missed my point. In not
wanting to be too explicit, I failed to explain myself.
> In <331D17...@ix.netcom.com> James Jorden <jjo...@ix.netcom.com>
> writes:
> >
> >J. Miller wrote:
> >
> >> Doesn't everyone consider Scarpia to be more "fun" than Cavaradossi?
> >
> >If they do, the baritone's not doing his job. Scarpia gets pleasure
> >from rape, torture, mental abuse and, in a pinch, murder. An honest
> >portrayal of this character should fill the audience with revulsion.
Unless I am unique in this, a character who is sexually dangerous is always
more interesting than a goodie-two-shoes hero like Cavaradossi. A
straightforward Scarpia is despicable *and* desirable. He's powerful, amoral,
and, usually, a very snappy dresser. If Scarpia was approaching Mario in the
same manner, would you feel differently?
But this is only the view from the audience, of course. Someone (Mark P.)
suggested that Scarpia's raw sexuality caused Tosca some problems, but I don't
agree. She's got her hands full trying to save her lover's life, to play it
otherwise is to weaken her character.
> >
ed waffle <ope...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5fjgfe$r...@sjx-ixn11.ix.netcom.com>...
(.......)
> Beethoven had no trouble with this, of course--NOBODY likes
> Pizzaro, even with that killer aria "Ha, welch' ein Augenblick". But
> other evil characters not only have great music but are the whole point
> of the action. There would be no conflict in Tosca without Scarpia,
> Otello and Desdemona would probably live happily ever after if Iago was
> not around--others who know more than I can add to the list.
Neither of these characters are *sexually* threatening, they're more concerned
with personal vendettas and political ambition <yawn>. After the Tosca
broadcast a couple months ago, I got into a similar discussion with two other
female opera fans and the verdict was unanimous. Scarpia is sexy.....I mean,
who wants to fantasize about a love-sick painter?
Janice
ed waffle
In <01bc298a$34acd960$LocalHost@miller516> "J. Miller"
<mill...@usit.net> writes:
><snip of stuff by JJorden about Scarpia>
>
>Unless I am unique in this, a character who is sexually dangerous is
always
>more interesting than a goodie-two-shoes hero like Cavaradossi. A
>straightforward Scarpia is despicable *and* desirable. He's powerful,
amoral,
>and, usually, a very snappy dresser. If Scarpia was approaching Mario
in the
>same manner, would you feel differently?
>
>But this is only the view from the audience, of course. Someone (Mark
P.)
>suggested that Scarpia's raw sexuality caused Tosca some problems, but
I don't
>agree. She's got her hands full trying to save her lover's life, to
play it
>otherwise is to weaken her character.
<snip of stuff about Pizzaro and Iago>
>Neither of these characters are *sexually* threatening, they're more
concerned
>with personal vendettas and political ambition <yawn>. After the
Tosca
>broadcast a couple months ago, I got into a similar discussion with
two other
>female opera fans and the verdict was unanimous. Scarpia is
sexy.....I mean,
>who wants to fantasize about a love-sick painter?
>
>Janice
"Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac"--couldn't find a quick
reference for that quote--I have heard it attributed to Henry
Kissinger, but it is too prescienctly witty for him.
Males (of the het variety, that is) are generally attracted to bad
girls, sexually dangerous types--starting with Carmen, there is a long
list in our favorite art form. Is the difference between the bad guys
and the bad girls in the source of power--Scarpia is sexually dangerous
and also powerful because he is police chief. Therefore, he has
control over the lives of the citizens on Rome. Carmen's power is not
granted by the state--it comes from her sexuality. She has power over
those she can seduce (bewitch?).
ECW
Brian G. Moore
Well, maybe I have a different take on this as I have never seen
Tosca, but the first time I heard it made a strong impression on me.
To my mind, the character I found irritating was Tosca herself; I mean
she's so jealous and irritating, and she rats out on Angelotti after
all. I felt this way right up until she stuck the knife in Scarpia--if
you can believe it that took me totally by surprise! At that point,
Tosca is transformed from a whiny jealous woman into a triumphant
character.
The point, if I have one, is that Scarpia is of course more interesting
that Cavaradossi. But he should not be so sexy that you mind him
getting the knife.
Karen Mercedes
I have a friend who is putting togeter a recital of arias by opera's
evil/morally bankrupt tenors. So far, we've identified:
Pinkerton (in MADAMA BUTTERFLY)
Paco (in de Falla's LA VIDA BREVE)
Mephistopheles (in Berlioz's LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
Canio (PAGLIACCI)
Duke of Mantua (RIGOLETTO)
Tybalt (ROMEO ET JULIETTE)
Any other tenor shits in opera?
This got me to thinking about low-voiced female heroines - mezzos and
contraltos. I do not mean "pants roles" that were originally written for
castratos or countertenors. This is the list I've got:
Contraltos:
Dalila (or is she a villainess?)
Lucretia (Britten's RAPE OF LUCRETIA)
La Cenerentola
Miss Todd (THE OLD LADY AND THE THIEF)
Mezzos:
Dulcinee (DON QUICHOTTE)
Dorabella
Beatrice (BEATRICE ET BENEDICT)
Jean d'Arc (JOAN OF ARC aka MAID OF ORLEANS by Tchaikovsky)
La Perichole
Judith (BLUEBEARD'S CASTLE)
Salud (LA VIDA BREVE)
Claire Zachanassian (THE VISIT OF THE OLD LADY)
Rosina (as originally scored)
Falcon/Dugazon/Soprano Crossover roles:
Chimene (LE CID)
Carmen (or is she a villainess?)
Marguerite (LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
Kundry
Giulietta (HOFFMANN)
Elizabeth I (GLORIANA)
Santuzza
Marina (BORIS GODOUNOV)
Aline (Berton's ALINE)
Ganna (Rimsky Korsakov's MAHSJAHA NOCH')
Some big, important mezzo/contralto roles, but not "heroines":
Eboli
Amneris
La Principessa (Adriana Lecouvreur)
Azucena
Olga (EUGENE ONEGIN)
Mother (THE CONSUL)
Meg Page and Dame Quickly
Laura (LA GIOCONDA)
The Witch (HANSEL UND GRETEL; a crossover role)
Krista (MAKROPOLUS SECRET)
Gertrude (HAMLET)
And pants roles meant for women:
Nicklausse
Orlofsky
Cherubino
Sesto and the other mezzo in Clemenza di Tito
Hansel
Any others in these categories?
Karen Mercedes
Michael Black
laurent cartayrade wrote:
>
> com.com> <01bc298a$34acd960$LocalHost@miller516>
> Distribution:
>
> J. Miller (mill...@usit.net) wrote:
> {...}
>
> : Neither of these characters are *sexually* threatening, they're more
> concerned with personal vendettas and political ambition <yawn>. After
> the Tosca broadcast a couple months ago, I got into a similar discussion
> with two other female opera fans and the verdict was unanimous. Scarpia
>
> : Janice
>
> Sexually threatening, Scarpia? If you ask me, he is an impotent
> creep who gets his jollies making women cry and torturing men who can get
> it up.
That's certainly an interesting way to look at him. However, I have
always thought of Scarpia who is hungry for power and wants Tosca
because he knows he can't ever have her. We all know how that is. We
want what we can't have. Nonetheless, Scarpia stops at nothing to get
what he wants. I don't think he is initially thinking of sex, he just
wants Tosca to be his. Actually, I think Scarpia is the schmuck.
Torture and blackmail is the only way he can get a woman. :)
username
In article <01bc2827$dba83200$700734ce@my-computer>, Shah...@msn.com says...
>
>
>
>After all, who could ever blame the tenor for wanting to run
>off with Adalgisa or Gutrune when his Norma or Brunnhilde looks like that?
>And what stallion could ever carry that Brunnhilde on its back?
>
Jessye Norman as Sieglinde. I can't remember which male character she was with at
the time, but my professor said "At this point he's supposed to carry Sieglinde
off the stage. Okay, let's see him try that." (He didn't. He just helped her walk
offstage.)
Andrew Park
laurent cartayrade
Brian G. Moore (mo...@onsager.bd.psu.edu) wrote:
[...]
: she's so jealous and irritating, and she rats out on Angelotti after
: all.
"She rats on Angelotti?" Well yes. I hope so. Her lover is being tortured
in the next room, for God's sake! Talk about blaming (one of) the
victim(s)!
Regarding the original theme of this thread, As far I am
concerned, Scarpia is but a common thug, who derives any "fascination" he
can hold from the fact that he meets in Tosca a strong woman ready and
willing to resist him, and who is broken only temporarily (and for a good
reason). Imagine the same character dealing with, say, Cio Cio San or
Mimi.Is he still fascinating?
And speaking of loathsome characters, what about Turandot? Am I
the only one who finds it highly upsetting that the monster responsible
for Liu's death (among others) should finally live happily ever after.
Admittedly, the groom isn't much better than the bride. He sheds three
tears on the woman who gave her life for him, then marries her
murderer. Come to think of it, these two deserve each other. The "happy"
ending may make some kind of sense after all. I can imagine "Turandot the
Sequel." She puts poison in his coffee, and his tampers with the brakes on
her car. Ah the happy pair...
laurent cartayrade
Shahrdad
dgable <dga...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in article
<331D23...@midway.uchicago.edu>...
What a beautiful thing to say! I'm still waiting to hear a Norma to come
within a 100 miles of here's, and I doubt that I ever will! In her prime,
she was probably the greatest Norma ever. And even in 1965 with her voice
in tatters, there are some moments that are so deeply and beautifully
uttered, they simply break your heart.
S.
Shahrdad
I agree with you James, but to a certain point. What made Titto Gobbi's
Scarpia so incredible was that he was able to project not only the evil
within the man, but also his sexual attraction. I think Zeffirelli's
conception in the famous 1964 production for Callas and Gobbi was that even
though Tosca is reviled by Scarpia, deep down she would kind of like to
sleep with him--sort of power as aphrodisiac. He felt that Tosca
absolutely has to kill Scarpia, mainly to kill that part of herself which
finds him sexually attractive. I think it makes for good drama, but only
if the Scarpia is able to portray not only the sexuality, but also the evil
nature of the man.
S.
James Jorden <jjo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> J. Miller wrote:
>
> > Doesn't everyone consider Scarpia to be more "fun" than Cavaradossi?
>
> If they do, the baritone's not doing his job. Scarpia gets pleasure
> from rape, torture, mental abuse and, in a pinch, murder. An honest
> portrayal of this character should fill the audience with revulsion.
>
> Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of baritones who would prefer to be
> liked...
>
Shahrdad
Vinh Nguyen <vng...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in article
<5fj477$6n9$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>...
> Have you ever given any thought to the fact that the two soprano roles
> in this pair of operas are of different "voice types" (there goes this
> contentious notion again), Santuzza being that of a spinto/dramatic and
> Nedda that of a lyric/soubrette? Shouldn't it be naturally
understandable
> for Callas to modify her voice accordingly to better be in character with
> the respective roles? The remarkable thing was that she's capable of
> doing it more successfully than most of the very few who dared tackle
> such a feat!
>
> Vinh Nguyen
You are right, and Callas was the ultimate in creating a new voice for each
character, but even with that in mind, you hear a distinct difference in
the basic nature of the voice in these two recordings. But you can take
the 1952 Covent Garden Norma and compare it to the 1955 Scala Norma. Same
role, but the basic physical strength of the voice had changed with the
weight loss. I personally like the thin voice a bit better, as it seems
more able to assume and convey different colors and textures. But the
effect of her diet on the sheer force of her voice can't be missed.
S.
Shahrdad
Well David, I don't know how old you are, but if you're 6-2, a waist of 30
inches is way to skinny. With most men, when they get to a certain age,
the figure fills out and more muscles develop, even without trying. And a
man's voice does not really mature until the mid 30's, and that's the time
when these physical changes begin to take place. In your case, these two
events have probably coincided. A good bit of your weight gain is probably
muscle weight, and if you keep in good shape and as you mature, your voice
will likely keep growing stronger.
S.
David <du...@novanet.net.au> wrote in article
<01bc2971$38bec180$796e...@dialup.ozemail.com.au>...
Mike Richter
Karen Mercedes wrote:
> Any other tenor shits in opera?
Until we got to the scatalogic reference, I had a long list to offer.
Mike
--
mric...@mindspring.com
Opera: http://mrichter.simplenet.com
Opera Mirror: http://www.opera.it/FreeWeb/mrichter
CD-Recordable: http://resource.simplenet.com
J. Miller
Laurent & group,
> Sexually threatening, Scarpia? If you ask me, he is an impotent
>creep who gets his jollies making women cry and torturing men who can get
>it up.
First of all, we *are* talking about a fictional character....about the effect
of such a character on a woman experiencing a performance of Tosca.
Perhaps the missing link here, as far as interpretation goes, has something to
do with gender. As a member of the "weaker" sex, I see all men as having the
*potential* to be like the above Scarpia to some degree, an unfortunate fact of
life. Women have always been victims, after all, and it isn't that much of a
leap to turn an involuntary role in society into a sizzling fantasy. And the
operative word there is, of course, fantasy. Maybe this is impossible for a
man to understand, I don't know.
> Regarding the original theme of this thread, As far I am
> concerned, Scarpia is but a common thug, who derives any "fascination" he
> can hold from the fact that he meets in Tosca a strong woman ready and
> willing to resist him, and who is broken only temporarily (and for a good
> reason). Imagine the same character dealing with, say, Cio Cio San or
> Mimi.Is he still fascinating?
He wouldn't be interested. Scarpia finds Tosca irresistible because she is a
famous diva, a beautiful woman, the lover of a political enemy, and she can't
stand him......from any angle a desirable conquest.
> And speaking of loathsome characters, what about Turandot?
No argument here.
--
Janice Miller
mill...@usit.net
Clarksville, TN
David M Pickering
Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.opera: 5-Mar-97 Tenor Villains/Mezzo
Heroines by Karen Mercedes@access4.d
> Nicklausse
> Orlofsky
> Cherubino
> Sesto and the other mezzo in Clemenza di Tito
> Hansel
Tancredi
Romeo (Bellini's "I Capuletti et I Montecchi")
Dave
dp...@andrew.cmu.edu
http://www.psy.cmu.edu/~dp3u/dave.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists
elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
--Calvin & Hobbes
ed waffle
In <01bc2a49$8700ff60$LocalHost@first-floor> "J. Miller"
<mill...@usit.net> writes:
><snip>
>
>Perhaps the missing link here, as far as interpretation goes, has
something to
>do with gender. As a member of the "weaker" sex, I see all men as
having the
>*potential* to be like the above Scarpia to some degree, an
unfortunate fact of
>life. Women have always been victims, after all, and it isn't that
much of a
>leap to turn an involuntary role in society into a sizzling fantasy.
And the
>operative word there is, of course, fantasy. Maybe this is impossible
for a
>man to understand, I don't know.
Tosca, Scarpia and reading the text.
Ok, I think I finally get it.
Lady Caroline Lamb said about Lord Byron that he was "mad, bad
and dangerous to know." This could sum up the way we feel about
Scarpia.
Scarpia is extremely powerful, has the tremendous energy that
villiany provides--both in life and on the stage. Thousands fear him
and they should, but he is also sophisticated, a man of the world--AND
a sharp dresser.
At the same time, he is totally smitten with Floria Tosca. A
dangerous man dangerously obsessed.
The Te Deum proscession--bells, cannon, bishops and monsignori in
full regalia, the faithful dropping to their knees--you can smell the
incense. Scarpia, in Rome, that most Catholic of cities, responds to
the sacred chant of this solemn liturgy with "Tosca, you make me forget
God!"
So we can be attracted by Scarpia (and repelled by our
attraction) or more likely (if male) have felt that same haunting
fascination at some point in our own lives and perhaps be just a little
sympathetic to it--if, for no other reason, this is an opera and we,
the audience have been irrationally drawn to a Tosca--a PRIMA DONNA.
Floria Tosca does not have that ambivalence. The most powerful
man in Rome wants her and is willing to go to astounding lengths to
obtain her favors, but she wants Mario and wants to get out of town.
As a prima donna she is above being impressed by the obsessive love of
great men and will prove it. After telling us that she lived for art
and lived for love, she kills Scarpia and curses him as he dies.
We are thrilled, and redeemed. We have had our walk on the wild
side with the sexual energy of power and infatuation but the good girl
has won. That the lovers do not make it out of Rome is not important
at this point.
Scarpia lies dead, any guilt over our dalliance with him expiated
(for now).
ECW
laurent cartayrade
t-floor>
Distribution:
J. Miller (mill...@usit.net) wrote:
: Laurent & group,
:First of all, we are talking about a fictional character....about the
effect
:of such a character on a woman experiencing a performance of Tosca.
Certainly. However, who are also talking of a real man on stage
embodying Scarpia for a couple of hours. What this man looks like seems to
me bound to influence how the audience react to the character. Your
joking comment in your original post about him being usually a "sharp (or
some equivalent adjective, I believe) dresser" confirms this in a way. So,
without arguing the question of gender-specific fantasies, I wonder
whether the fantasy you describe of a sexually fascinating Scarpia may not
have a lot to do with the way the character is usually cast. Although I
may be mistaken, I don't think there is anything in the music or text of
Tosca that implies that Scarpia should be in any way less repulsive
physically than he is morally. Would a physically repulsive Scarpia still
create the fantasy you describe? And if not, why isn't he usually made
physically repulsive. In other words, whose fantasy the "fascinating
Scarpia" first is, before becoming that of the female audience you
describe? Couldn't it be the (usually male) director, or perhaps the
(by definition male) singer/actor? That's because of this that I find the
idea of a fascinating Scarpia somewhat bothersome, and my comment on him
being an "impotent creep" was an attempt to suggest a morally more
acceptable alternative to the fascinating Scarpia, which you describe as a
(relatively innocuous) female fantasy but that I suspect may be originally
or also a (much more questionable, given the historical reality of male-female
power relationships) male fantasy, that is a symbolic instance of that
potential violence you ascribe to all males elsewhere in your message.
Martin Herbordt
James Jorden wrote:
.
.
> even Pavarotti up until about 10 years ago was not
> *distractingly* large.
Except when asked to wear a miniskirt as he was in Idomeneo!
Martin Herbordt
Gerald C. Young
I think I must agree with James and disagree with Michael.
One must look believable to sing a part successfully on stage.
Gerald C. Young
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
dtri...@bway.net
Where did you get the notion that Canio is a villain? Is it villainy to
be crazed by a wife that cheats on you to the point that you lose your
reason? While homicide is extreme, the law admits of mitigating
circumstances, or of mental derangement.
And you've neglected two charming hosenrolle by Gounod, Siebel and
Stephano.
dft
Peter Gustafsson
Hi!
In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.97030...@access4.digex.net>,
Karen Mercedes <merc...@access4.digex.net> wrote:
>I have a friend who is putting togeter a recital of arias by opera's
>evil/morally bankrupt tenors. So far, we've identified:
>
>Pinkerton (in MADAMA BUTTERFLY)
>Paco (in de Falla's LA VIDA BREVE)
>Mephistopheles (in Berlioz's LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
>Canio (PAGLIACCI)
>Duke of Mantua (RIGOLETTO)
>Tybalt (ROMEO ET JULIETTE)
>
>Any other tenor shits in opera?
Monostatos (DIE ZAUBERFLÖTE)
>
>This got me to thinking about low-voiced female heroines - mezzos and
>contraltos. I do not mean "pants roles" that were originally written for
>castratos or countertenors. This is the list I've got:
<Good list snipped, can´t add, mezzo Karen M. naturally knows more about this
than I do>
>Karen Mercedes
A further twist on that: Anybody got a list of leading-lover basses? Bass
heroes who are not kings or old fathers?
Have a nice time!
Peter Gustafsson
J. Miller
laurent cartayrade <laur...@wam.umd.edu> wrote in article
<5fn4g8$1...@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>...
>
> Certainly. However, who are also talking of a real man on stage
> embodying Scarpia for a couple of hours. What this man looks like seems to
> me bound to influence how the audience react to the character. Your
> joking comment in your original post about him being usually a "sharp (or
> some equivalent adjective, I believe) dresser" confirms this in a way. So,
> without arguing the question of gender-specific fantasies, I wonder
> whether the fantasy you describe of a sexually fascinating Scarpia may not
> have a lot to do with the way the character is usually cast.
My first Scarpia was Ingvar Wixell - nice threads, good stage presence, but
hardly the image of someone I'd lose sleep over.
>Although I
> may be mistaken, I don't think there is anything in the music or text of
> Tosca that implies that Scarpia should be in any way less repulsive
> physically than he is morally. Would a physically repulsive Scarpia still
> create the fantasy you describe?
Uh, no, not if you mean sincerely repulsive. But looks are not as necessary
for Scarpia as the ability to command ..... his forces *and* the stage.
Besides, that would be redundant - ugly inside, ugly outside. Better that he
should be attractive, in a Dorian Gray sort of way; much more interesting for
the audience.
>And if not, why isn't he usually made
> (by definition male) singer/actor? That's because of this that I find the
> idea of a fascinating Scarpia somewhat bothersome, and my comment on him
> being an "impotent creep" was an attempt to suggest a morally more
> acceptable alternative to the fascinating Scarpia, which you describe as a
> (relatively innocuous) female fantasy but that I suspect may be originally
> or also a (much more questionable, given the historical reality of
male-female
> power relationships) male fantasy, that is a symbolic instance of that
> potential violence you ascribe to all males elsewhere in your message.
Yes, I suppose it is bothersome.....the idea of being attracted to something
that should repel us if we had any common sense. But in the safety of a
fantasy, anything is possible. As far as opera is concerned, surely there are
other bad guys with a sexy rep, yes?
JM
Bruce A. Rosenberg
On 5 Mar 1997 19:59:48 GMT, ope...@ix.netcom.com(ed waffle) wrote:
[snip]
>
> "Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac"--couldn't find a quick
>reference for that quote--I have heard it attributed to Henry
>Kissinger, but it is too prescienctly witty for him.
I really don't get it. How does a guy named Waffle, who doesn't even
have a copy of Bartlett's, get off criticizing a man of Kissinger's
stature for not being witty?
Forget the politics of China. Let's say that the time was simply
right; that it was all Nixon's idea; that human rights dictate that
the overtures were premature; or that Mr. Kissinger's execution could
have been done by anyone.
Forget the fact that he attracted some of the most beautiful and
intelligent women (ok... mates, if it makes you feel more inclusive)
during his public life.
What is it that makes you want to slam on a man of such
accomplishment? It boggles my mind. If you were Richard Pryor and
funny; if you were Bill Maar and witty; if you were Ted Koppel and
informative; who are you and what are you trying to be except
judgemental? (That's prescienctly rhetoric.)
A comment such as this serves only to devalue all your other comments,
which add to the newsgroup.
In the format that two others have used to address you herein ...
What's up, Ed?
Sara Freeman
In <33221551...@news.interpath.net> bar...@interpath.com (Bruce
But can Henry sing? That's the only thing that's important here.
--
Bravo Hynninen! No one else comes near!
Bruce A. Rosenberg
Please, not the male vs female thing.
You are right on point in saying that Scarpia is a fictional
character.
It is clear that the part was written to be villainous and predatory.
To see it another way is to choose to interpret the part down some
tangent, the food of the newsgroup.
How much verbiage can we possibly offer up as fodder explaining that
Scarpia was not an evil threat to women?
Silliness.
On 6 Mar 1997 16:15:22 GMT, "J. Miller" <mill...@usit.net> wrote:
[bobbit]
>
>Perhaps the missing link here, as far as interpretation goes, has something to
>do with gender. As a member of the "weaker" sex, I see all men as having the
>*potential* to be like the above Scarpia to some degree, an unfortunate fact of
>life. Women have always been victims, after all, and it isn't that much of a
>leap to turn an involuntary role in society into a sizzling fantasy. And the
>operative word there is, of course, fantasy. Maybe this is impossible for a
>man to understand, I don't know.
>Janice Miller
>mill...@usit.net
>Clarksville, TN
J. Miller
Bruce A. Rosenberg <bar...@interpath.com> wrote in article
<3322458...@news.interpath.net>...
> Please, not the male vs female thing.
>
> You are right on point in saying that Scarpia is a fictional
> character.
>
> It is clear that the part was written to be villainous and predatory.
> To see it another way is to choose to interpret the part down some
> tangent, the food of the newsgroup.
>
> How much verbiage can we possibly offer up as fodder explaining that
> Scarpia was not an evil threat to women?
>
Apparently, at least a little bit more.
jm
Robert Steinberg
Peter Gustafsson wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.97030...@access4.digex.net>,
> Karen Mercedes <merc...@access4.digex.net> wrote:
> >I have a friend who is putting togeter a recital of arias by opera's
> >evil/morally bankrupt tenors. So far, we've identified:
> >
> >Pinkerton (in MADAMA BUTTERFLY)
> >Paco (in de Falla's LA VIDA BREVE)
> >Mephistopheles (in Berlioz's LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
> >Canio (PAGLIACCI)
Canio is not a villian, nor is Alfio in Cavalleria.....they are just Sicilian....they kill their
wives lovers as a matter of course. Tonio should be seen as the bad guy in Pagliacci.
None of these guys are in a 'league with the devil'.
How can one not like Canio??? And married to such a nice girl as Nedda.
I didn't catch the entire plot of Billy Budd broadcast by the Met today. Sounded like
there were some baddies plotting to get Billy.
RS
MidiOpera Co.
http://www.tcol.net/~midiopra/
Peter Gustafsson
Hi!
I have not read r.m.o. for a few days, so I don´t know who wrote the following
cited text. However, it was *not* me - there must have been some misquoting
along the line. Ah, such things happen.
Have a nice time!
Peter Gustafsson
Frankie Ho
Hello!
Karen Mercedes wrote:
>
> I have a friend who is putting togeter a recital of arias by opera's
> evil/morally bankrupt tenors. So far, we've identified:
>
> Pinkerton (in MADAMA BUTTERFLY)
> Paco (in de Falla's LA VIDA BREVE)
> Mephistopheles (in Berlioz's LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
> Canio (PAGLIACCI)
> Duke of Mantua (RIGOLETTO)
> Tybalt (ROMEO ET JULIETTE)
>
> Any other tenor shits in opera?
How about the Drummajor in Wozzeck and Fatty in Mahagonny?
--
/) est wishes,
/_) /~
/~ rankie Ho
Benjamin Rochefort
Karen Mercedes wrote:
>
> I have a friend who is putting togeter a recital of arias by opera's
> evil/morally bankrupt tenors. So far, we've identified:
>
> Pinkerton (in MADAMA BUTTERFLY)
> Paco (in de Falla's LA VIDA BREVE)
> Mephistopheles (in Berlioz's LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
> Canio (PAGLIACCI)
> Duke of Mantua (RIGOLETTO)
> Tybalt (ROMEO ET JULIETTE)
>
> Any other tenor shits in opera?
I think Mephistopheles (in LA DAMNATION DE FAUST) is a bass, not a
tenor.
--
Benjamin Rochefort
E-mail : roch...@cti.ecp.fr
Page Web : http://www.cti.ecp.fr/~rochefb8
Dick Johnson
laurent cartayrade wrote in article...
[snip]
> And speaking of loathsome characters, what about Turandot? Am I
> the only one who finds it highly upsetting that the monster responsible
> for Liu's death (among others) should finally live happily ever after.
> Admittedly, the groom isn't much better than the bride. He sheds three
> tears on the woman who gave her life for him, then marries her
> murderer. Come to think of it, these two deserve each other. The "happy"
Look at Turandot as myth -- much like the Ring. Liu's sacrifice is
redemptive for Turandot, Calaf -- even China (consider the remarks of Ping,
Pang, and Pong on feeling the change).Myth (and fairy tales) can't be
appreciated as history. It is not verismo (were any of G.P.'s operas true
verismo) -- and myth must be accepted on its own terms.
Mark R. Penney
"Dick Johnson" claimed re: Turandot:
[snip]
>appreciated as history. It is not verismo (were any of G.P.'s
>operas true
>verismo) -- and myth must be accepted on its own terms.
>
Counterexample: isn't realism one of the reasons why people like
La Boheme so much?
--M.
James Jorden
Mark R. Penney wrote:
> Counterexample: isn't realism one of the reasons why people like
> La Boheme so much?
We're talking about a difference between "realism" and "naturalism"
here: La boheme is based on "everyday" events and ordinary people, but
they are somewhat romanticized. In a truly "veristic" "Boheme", Rodolfo
would be bald and an alcoholic, and Mimi would be turning tricks up
until only a few days before her death-- which by the way would take
place in a charity hospital while Rodolfo was on a drunken binge.
lbf6208
Mark R. Penney (mpe...@law.harvard.edu) wrote:
: Counterexample: isn't realism one of the reasons why people like
: La Boheme so much?
Ah, but does "verismo" equal "realism"? (didn't they just hash this out on
Opera-l?)
--
Linda B. Fairtile
Astoria, New York
ta...@bway.net
The Duke
Frankie Ho wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> Karen Mercedes wrote:
> >
> > I have a friend who is putting togeter a recital of arias by opera's
> > evil/morally bankrupt tenors. So far, we've identified:
> >
> > Pinkerton (in MADAMA BUTTERFLY)
> > Paco (in de Falla's LA VIDA BREVE)
> > Mephistopheles (in Berlioz's LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
> > Canio (PAGLIACCI)
> > Duke of Mantua (RIGOLETTO)
> > Tybalt (ROMEO ET JULIETTE)
> >
> > Any other tenor shits in opera?
>
>
Don Jose in "CARMEN" ain't exactly pleasant by opera's end.
Then again, neither is Otello.
Mephistopheles in Busoni's "DOKTOR FAUST".
Capt. Vere in "BILLY BUDD".
Monostatos on "DIE ZAUBERFLOTE".
And does Aegisth in "ELEKTRA" count?
And I don't know the piece at all, but apparently in
Rossini's "OTELLO", Iago is a tenor.
If more come to mind.....
THE DUKE.
Linda B. Fairtile
The Duke writes:
>Capt. Vere in "BILLY BUDD".
Having just seen BB the other night, the story is fresh in my mind. Are you
sure Capt. Vere is a bad guy? I find him the most interesting character in
the piece, caught between the absolute good of Billy and the absolute
evil of Claggart. Yes, Vere could have saved Billy, and he is tormented
by guilt because he didn't. On the other hand, if he lets a sailor escape
punishment for killing a superior (don't forget, there had just been
mutinies on two other ships), what kind of message does that send?
I certainly don't know what I'd do in his position, but to write Vere off
as a "tenor shit" is really an oversimplification.
Daniel F. Tritter
Ms. Fairtile, as a scholar, you may be interested in going back to the
original Melville text [[the Haywood and Seults edition, as the authentic
one] to look at Vere. The problem with the Britten work is that it uses a
libretto which is an adaptation of an adaptation. You can't avoid that
sort of problem, to fast-forward the action and still give your
characters a dramatic pulse.
But the libretto misuses the Articles of War and the Mutiny Act, expands
Vere into an area that Melville does not and hypersimplifies the other
two main characters.
Melville's 110-or-so pages are some of the most fascinating in the
English language, and I hate to see them overriden by a perceived
dramatic urgency that might have done something else without losing the
theatricality.
Fn.1: I was a 19-year-old Dansker in a production of the Crozier play
at Williams in 1953, and so I do bear affection for BB as drama.
Fn. 2: I love the opera and give full honors to the Met for its present
incarnation.
cheers.
dft
J. Miller
Linda B. Fairtile <ta...@bway.net> wrote in article
<tasha.24...@bway.net>...
> The Duke writes:
> >Capt. Vere in "BILLY BUDD".
>
> Having just seen BB the other night, the story is fresh in my mind. Are you
> sure Capt. Vere is a bad guy? I find him the most interesting character in
> the piece, caught between the absolute good of Billy and the absolute
> evil of Claggart.
Hmmm, I see it a little differently (don't you just love opera?). To me,
Captain Vere is an un-interesting personification of the British
man-in-command, must-go-by-the-book-no-matter-how-it-pains-me, type of
character seen all the time (also prevalent in American men-in-command featured
in movies from the 30's & 40's ). The only difference being the humanity
(weakness?) Vere is allowed to show when he voices his regret; which I suppose
belongs in this more modern treatment of that character-type.
As for Billy Budd....innocent definitely, but hardly good (his hair-trigger
temper sort of keeps him out of that category, a bit like Lenny in OMAM?).
Claggart, I think, is the most interesting (no, I don't think he's sexy), if
just a bit one-dimensional, like Iago.
JMiller
Linda B. Fairtile
Daniel F. Tritter writes:
>Ms. Fairtile, as a scholar, you may be interested in going back to the
>original Melville text [[the Haywood and Seults edition, as the authentic
>one] to look at Vere.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've been meaning to do just that. Still, I
stick by what I posted earlier about Britten's Captain Vere -- I don't think
he's a classic "bad guy," and I believe that there is some justification for
his seemingly heartless (gutless?) behavior. We are almost always
disappointed when comparing an opera libretto to its literary source --
Madama Butterfly is one notable exception -- but that doesn't mean that
the libretto cannot make a certain amount of sense on its own.
>Fn.1: I was a 19-year-old Dansker in a production of the Crozier play
> at Williams in 1953, and so I do bear affection for BB as drama.
Wow, you must have had some makeup job!
Lis K. Froding
In <tasha.24...@bway.net> ta...@bway.net (Linda B. Fairtile)
writes:
>The Duke writes:
>>Capt. Vere in "BILLY BUDD".
>
>Having just seen BB the other night, the story is fresh in my mind.
>Are you sure Capt. Vere is a bad guy? I find him the most interesting
>character in the piece, caught between the absolute good of Billy and
>he is tormented by guilt because he didn't. On the other hand, if he
>lets a sailor escape punishment for killing a superior (don't forget,
>there had just been mutinies on two other ships), what kind of message
>does that send? I certainly don't know what I'd do in his position,
>but to write Vere off as a "tenor shit" is really an
>oversimplification.
>
Agree with these observations (saw the same perf). Captain Vere comes
across as a somewhat weak character, but certainly not 'bad'. He's
caught between a rock and a hard place. Though he clearly realizes
that Claggart's accusations about Billy Budd are unfounded - and says
so several times - he probably also realizes that Claggart is a very
strong character, and that getting him as his enemy might hurt him
(Vere) at a later point, and he cannot take that change. No easy
choices there, and his three officers aren't much help either.
One can speculate what might have happened if the fog had not aborted
The Indomitable's attack on the enemy ship and Billy and the other
volunteers had been able to board that ship, thus possibly becoming
heroes. Under those circumstances, Claggart's case might have been
weaker, but he would surely have laid some other trap for Billy.
Lis
Lis K. Froding
In <332821...@bway.net> "Daniel F. Tritter" <dtri...@bway.net>
writes:
>
>Ms. Fairtile, as a scholar, you may be interested in going back to the
>original Melville text [[the Haywood and Seults edition, as the
>that it uses a libretto which is an adaptation of an adaptation. You
>can't avoid that sort of problem, to fast-forward the action and still
>give your characters a dramatic pulse.
>
>But the libretto misuses the Articles of War and the Mutiny Act,
>expands Vere into an area that Melville does not and hypersimplifies
>the other two main characters.
>
>Melville's 110-or-so pages are some of the most fascinating in the
>English language, and I hate to see them overriden by a perceived
>dramatic urgency that might have done something else without losing
>the theatricality.
>
> at Williams in 1953, and so I do bear affection for BB as drama.
>
>present incarnation.
>
>cheers.
>
>dft
I don't want to steal Linda's thunder here, but the opera is a separate
work from the novel and should be judged on its own. A situation is
presented in the opera which poses a difficult choice for the captain.
If some of the premises are faulty, so be it, the characters are still
stuck with them. And if some of this is presented differently or in
more detail in the novel, that's a separate issue.
Lis
John Lynch
I'm glad someone else has picked up on the Duke's naming Captain Vere as
a tenor villain. A villain implies evil. Vere is in no way evil, neither
is he just following orders (Befehl ist Befehl as the Germans cunningly
put it). Read or re-read the Melville tale.
In it you will also find that Billy is "not too good to be true", but
someone whose "innocence is based on ignorance". In the tale he comes
across as a good-natured, inarticulate zero, a kid with a stammer and a
wicked right.
I want to re-read the libretto and compare it with the original before
picking up this thread again.
--
John Lynch
John Lynch
Lis K. Froding wrote:
> One can speculate what might have happened if the fog had not aborted
> The Indomitable's attack on the enemy ship and Billy and the other
> volunteers had been able to board that ship, thus possibly becoming
> heroes. Under those circumstances, Claggart's case might have been
> weaker, but he would surely have laid some other trap for Billy.
Lis, if you're going to say you can't compare the source with the opera
in one post, you can't speculate on what might have happened in another,
can you? What if Budd had not been shanghaied from The Rights of Man?
Deirdre Nilsson
How about Loge in the Ring. Maybe not a total shit but rather fickle and
not exactly a hero...
/Deirdre
The Duke <sit...@my.computer> skrev i inlägg
<3327A8...@my.computer>...
> Frankie Ho wrote:
> >
> > Hello!
> >
> > Karen Mercedes wrote:
> > >
> > > I have a friend who is putting togeter a recital of arias by opera's
> > > evil/morally bankrupt tenors. So far, we've identified:
> > >
> > > Pinkerton (in MADAMA BUTTERFLY)
> > > Paco (in de Falla's LA VIDA BREVE)
> > > Mephistopheles (in Berlioz's LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
> > > Canio (PAGLIACCI)
> > > Duke of Mantua (RIGOLETTO)
> > > Tybalt (ROMEO ET JULIETTE)
> > >
> > > Any other tenor shits in opera?
> >
> > How about the Drummajor in Wozzeck and Fatty in Mahagonny?
> >
>
> Don Jose in "CARMEN" ain't exactly pleasant by opera's end.
> Then again, neither is Otello.
> Mephistopheles in Busoni's "DOKTOR FAUST".
> Capt. Vere in "BILLY BUDD".
Lis K. Froding
In <01bc2fd7$4b758b80$b9caf1cd@first-floor> "J. Miller"
<mill...@usit.net> writes:
>
>Linda B. Fairtile <ta...@bway.net> wrote in article
><tasha.24...@bway.net>...
>> The Duke writes:
>>
>> Are you sure Capt. Vere is a bad guy? I find him the most
>> interesting character in the piece, caught between the absolute good
>> of Billy and the absolute evil of Claggart.
>
>me, Captain Vere is an un-interesting personification of the British
>man-in-command, must-go-by-the-book-no-matter-how-it-pains-me, type of
>character seen all the time (also prevalent in American men-in-command
>featured in movies from the 30's & 40's ). The only difference being
>the humanity (weakness?) Vere is allowed to show when he voices his
>regret; which I suppose belongs in this more modern treatment of that
>character-type.
Valid points. However, Vere knows he doesn't quite have to go by the
book, and yet he chooses to. I've already given my thoughts on why.
>As for Billy Budd....innocent definitely, but hardly good (his
>hair-trigger temper sort of keeps him out of that category, a bit like
>Lenny in OMAM?).
The temper is obviously a problem and - in this case - results from his
frustration with stammering.
I also find BB a little too good to be true. Here's a fellow, a
foundling, who can't have led an easy life, has been at sea long enough
to become an able seaman, is probably about twenty or so (anybody want
to venture a guess at his age?). I think it's unreasonable to ask the
audience to believe he's one hundred percent good. So, since "there's
always something", that something is his temper.
>Claggart, I think, is the most interesting (no, I don't think he's
>sexy), if just a bit one-dimensional, like Iago.
Definitely not sexy, at least not as portrayed by James Morris. He
does, however, let the audience in on his weakness and makes it clear
why he thinks he must destroy BB - it's either that or he'll see
himself destroyed.
>JMiller
Lis
J. Miller
Hi Lis etc
Lis K. Froding <too...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5ga7n5$k...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>...
> In <01bc2fd7$4b758b80$b9caf1cd@first-floor> "J. Miller"
> >Hmmm, I see it a little differently (don't you just love opera?). To
> >me, Captain Vere is an un-interesting personification of the British
> >man-in-command, must-go-by-the-book-no-matter-how-it-pains-me, type of
> >character seen all the time (also prevalent in American men-in-command
> >featured in movies from the 30's & 40's ). The only difference being
> >the humanity (weakness?) Vere is allowed to show when he voices his
> >regret; which I suppose belongs in this more modern treatment of that
> >character-type.
>
> Valid points. However, Vere knows he doesn't quite have to go by the
> book, and yet he chooses to. I've already given my thoughts on why.
I'm not that familiar with the libretto (even though it was in English, I
missed a lot of what was being said), how do you know Vere *knows* this? I
think that for him duty must come first, regardless of circumstances. He's
very boring, but necessary.
>
> >As for Billy Budd....innocent definitely, but hardly good (his
> >hair-trigger temper sort of keeps him out of that category, a bit like
> >Lenny in OMAM?).
>
> The temper is obviously a problem and - in this case - results from his
> frustration with stammering.
I don't agree, I think that the stammering occurs in conjunction with certain
feelings that BB can't deal with. The more I think of the Lenny analogy, the
more I like it. How about this? I think BB, the character, makes more sense
when you think of him as being mentally deficient in some way. (Is that too
far out?) His "innocence" comes from lack of intelligence, as does his
frustration.
>
> I also find BB a little too good to be true. Here's a fellow, a
> foundling, who can't have led an easy life, has been at sea long enough
> to become an able seaman, is probably about twenty or so
And yet he can't even see that he is despised by a very evil man? No, it just
doesn't wash. Old Billy Budd is a little dim, I think, and for him, ignorance
is bliss.
jm
J. Miller
John Lynch <jly...@ma.ultranet.com> wrote in article
<3328AC...@ma.ultranet.com>...
(...)
> I want to re-read the libretto and compare it with the original before
> picking up this thread again.
> --
But, seriously, what difference would it make? Since the latter was just an
interpretation of the former, any disaggreement between the two, while
interesting, wouldn't prove anything. Isn't it common practice for a
librettist to take, at least, a little artistic license when working with an
original whatnot?
JM
Lis K. Froding
In <3328AE...@ma.ultranet.com> John Lynch <jly...@ma.ultranet.com>
writes:
Sure I can :-)
It was an afterthought and a separate issue.
>John Lynch
Lis
Lis K. Froding
In <01bc301d$12819bc0$97caf1cd@first-floor> "J. Miller"
<mill...@usit.net> writes:
>
>Hi Lis etc
>
>Lis K. Froding <too...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
><5ga7n5$k...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>...
>> In <01bc2fd7$4b758b80$b9caf1cd@first-floor> "J. Miller"
>
>> >Hmmm, I see it a little differently (don't you just love opera?).
>> >To me, Captain Vere is an un-interesting personification of the
>> >British man-in-command,
>> >must-go-by-the-book-no-matter-how-it-pains-me, type of character
>> >seen all the time (also prevalent in American men-in-command
>> >featured in movies from the 30's & 40's ). The only difference
>> >being the humanity (weakness?) Vere is allowed to show when he
>> >voices his regret; which I suppose belongs in this more modern
>> >treatment of that character-type.
>>
>> Valid points. However, Vere knows he doesn't quite have to go by
>> the book, and yet he chooses to. I've already given my thoughts on
>> why.
>
>I'm not that familiar with the libretto (even though it was in
>English, I missed a lot of what was being said), how do you know Vere
>*knows* this? I think that for him duty must come first, regardless
>of circumstances. He's very boring, but necessary.
Prior to the verdict, Vere refers to himself as 'king of this fragment
of earth, of this floating monarchy'. A king at that time (1797) would
have had discretionary powers in executing laws. And after all, there
were mitigating circumstances surrounding Billy's killing of Claggart,
which was what he was hung for, not for the accusations. Yes, he
struck him, but I don't think anyone believed he struck him with the
intent to kill. He was also wrongfully accused, which the captain
never doubted.
And in the epilogue he says: "For I could have saved him, I could have
saved him. He knew it, even his shipmates knew it, though earthly laws
silenced him."
What I understand this to mean is that if Vere had wanted to, he could
have exacted a lesser punishment than death.
>> >As for Billy Budd....innocent definitely, but hardly good (his
>> >hair-trigger temper sort of keeps him out of that category, a bit
>> >like Lenny in OMAM?).
>>
>> The temper is obviously a problem and - in this case - results from
>> his frustration with stammering.
>
>I don't agree, I think that the stammering occurs in conjunction with
>certain feelings that BB can't deal with. The more I think of the
>Lenny analogy, the more I like it. How about this? I think BB, the
>character, makes more sense when you think of him as being mentally
>deficient in some way. (Is that too far out?) His "innocence" comes
>from lack of intelligence, as does his frustration.
Call me dense, but what's OMAM and who's Lenny?
Yes, his stammering has to do with being in a difficult situation. The
only other time he stammers is when he's first brought onboard and is
questioned by Claggart and has trouble getting out the words that he
was a foundling. But I don't call that being mentally deficient, and
nothing else suggests that he is. He just has a bit of a temper.
>> I also find BB a little too good to be true. Here's a fellow, a
>> foundling, who can't have led an easy life, has been at sea long
>> enough to become an able seaman, is probably about twenty or so
>And yet he can't even see that he is despised by a very evil man? No,
>it just doesn't wash. Old Billy Budd is a little dim, I think, and
>for him, ignorance is bliss.
Claggart is deliberately being very nice to Billy, praising him etc.
while laying the trap. Billy has only been onboard for a week, so when
Dansker (I like that name) warns him against Claggart, he (Billy)
doesn't believe anything is amiss. I think it's possible to fool
someone for a week.
>jm
Lis
John Lynch
Billy Budd was 21 in the Melville tale.
Lis K. Froding wrote:
is probably about twenty or so (anybody want
> to venture a guess at his age?). --
John Lynch
jly...@ma.ultranet.com
jly...@fas.harvard.edu
Sarah Hollis
Lis K. Froding wrote:
>
>
> Call me dense, but what's OMAM and who's Lenny?
FYI: OMAM - Of Mice and Men, Steinbeck's novel. Lenny is the mentally
slow character who kills someone more or less by accident (if memory
serves correctly). His companion (again, long time no read, I forget
his name) protects Lenny from punishment he knows Lenny won't
understand by killing him himself.
(This has been the abridged cliffnote version)
lbf6208
James Jorden (jjo...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In a truly "veristic" "Boheme", Rodolfo would be bald...
He is! In Murger's original book, at least.
Lis K. Froding
In <01bc2fc7$c3b2bec0$0c00...@DEIRDRE.NMNT1> "Deirdre Nilsson"
<deirdre...@netmaker.se> writes:
>
>How about Loge in the Ring. Maybe not a total shit but rather fickle
>and not exactly a hero...
> /Deirdre
Right. And he's entertaining too!
Lis
Daniel F. Tritter
The crisis of conscience of Edward Fairfax Vere is that he deliberately
misquotes the Articles of War and the Mutiny Act to his drumhead court.
In fact, the Articles require that the matter be referred for trial to
the admiral of the fleet. And what do you make of a Captain who usurps
the roles of prosecutor and witness and does not recuse himself from the
one in favor of the other?
Melville quotes the ship's surgeon (one of the adjudicators) as believing
that Vere is suffering mental illness. Years later, Vere dies, never
having delivered himself of the monologue in Britten's last scene, but
merely with the two last words, "Billy Budd."
Melville spends a great deal of time in comparing the conduct of Vere
with that of "the greatest sailor in the history of the world," Admiral
Sir Horatio Nelson, and plainly Melville and Vere find the comparison
heavily weighted against Vere.
dft
eac...@aol.com
In article <5fn4g8$1...@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>, laur...@wam.umd.edu wrote:
>I don't think there is anything in the music or text of
>Tosca that implies that Scarpia should be in any way less repulsive
>physically than he is morally.
Certainly Cavaradossi's description of Baron Scarpia is hardly
flattering!
"Scarpia? Bigotto satiro che affina
Colle devote pratiche la foia
Libertina e strumento
Al lascivo talento
Fa il confessore e il boia!"
"Scarpia? That licentous bigot who exploits
The uses of religion as refinements
For his libertine lust, and makes
Both the confessor and the hangman
The servants of his wantonness!"
(Tr. by Winston Burdett -- yes, the former CBS correspondent! --
from the libretto that came with the Angel LPs of the Callas/
De Sabata recording. The same translation appears -- uncredited! --
in the booklet with the EMI CDs of the same recording.)
As the philosophers used to say, his essence defines his existence.
And so you would expect such a Scarpia to look rather "experienced"
in the arts of licentiousness, sadism, brutality, and cruelty.
Of the Scarpias I have seen in staged performances, only Tito
Gobbi fulfilled the essence of Scarpia. --E.A.C.
Virginia Lyons
I always thougfht that Pinkerton in Butterfly was a real jerk.
He basically buys a concubine, he has a girlin every port, he signs a 99
year contract with Butterfly and then leaves her destitute and never
sends her any support money.
Best Regards,
Virginia Lyons
Justin-Jermaine D. Walker (Jay)
Karen Mercedes (merc...@access4.digex.net) wrote:
: I have a friend who is putting togeter a recital of arias by opera's
: evil/morally bankrupt tenors. So far, we've identified:
:
: Pinkerton (in MADAMA BUTTERFLY)
: Paco (in de Falla's LA VIDA BREVE)
: Mephistopheles (in Berlioz's LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
: Canio (PAGLIACCI)
: Duke of Mantua (RIGOLETTO)
: Tybalt (ROMEO ET JULIETTE)
:
: Any other tenor shits in opera?
:
What about Sportin' Life in Porgy and Bess?
or Robert Devereaux(sp) from Goriana wwwell he may not have been a
villian but certainly the antangonist.
: This got me to thinking about low-voiced female heroines - mezzos and
: contraltos. I do not mean "pants roles" that were originally written for
: castratos or countertenors. This is the list I've got:
Where would one put Dido and Cassandra from Les Troyens?
Singlinde also?
:
: Contraltos:
: Dalila (or is she a villainess?)
: Lucretia (Britten's RAPE OF LUCRETIA)
: La Cenerentola
: Miss Todd (THE OLD LADY AND THE THIEF)
Isabella (L'Itlaliana in Algeri)
:
:
: Mezzos:
: Dulcinee (DON QUICHOTTE)
: Dorabella
: Beatrice (BEATRICE ET BENEDICT)
: Jean d'Arc (JOAN OF ARC aka MAID OF ORLEANS by Tchaikovsky)
: La Perichole
: Judith (BLUEBEARD'S CASTLE)
: Salud (LA VIDA BREVE)
: Claire Zachanassian (THE VISIT OF THE OLD LADY)
: Rosina (as originally scored)
Charlotte (WErther) I could be wrong with this one
Sapho (Sapho)
:
:
: Falcon/Dugazon/Soprano Crossover roles:
: Chimene (LE CID)
: Carmen (or is she a villainess?)
: Marguerite (LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
: Kundry
: Giulietta (HOFFMANN)
: Elizabeth I (GLORIANA)
: Santuzza
: Marina (BORIS GODOUNOV)
: Aline (Berton's ALINE)
: Ganna (Rimsky Korsakov's MAHSJAHA NOCH')
:
:
: Some big, important mezzo/contralto roles, but not "heroines":
: Eboli
: Amneris
: La Principessa (Adriana Lecouvreur)
: Azucena
: Olga (EUGENE ONEGIN)
: Mother (THE CONSUL)
: Meg Page and Dame Quickly
: Laura (LA GIOCONDA)
: The Witch (HANSEL UND GRETEL; a crossover role)
: Krista (MAKROPOLUS SECRET)
: Gertrude (HAMLET)
:
:
: And pants roles meant for women:
: Nicklausse
: Orlofsky
: Cherubino
: Sesto and the other mezzo in Clemenza di Tito
: Hansel
Malcolm (La donna del Iago)
:
:
: Any others in these categories?
:
: Karen Mercedes
:
Jay--
Ragbert
>Karen Mercedes (merc...@access4.digex.net) wrote:
>: I have a friend who is putting togeter a recital of arias by opera's
>: evil/morally bankrupt tenors. So far, we've identified:
>:
>: Pinkerton (in MADAMA BUTTERFLY)
>: Paco (in de Falla's LA VIDA BREVE)
>: Mephistopheles (in Berlioz's LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
The Berlioz Mephistopheles is no tenor! (Gee, is ANY Mephisto written
for tenor? I can't think of one myself.)
--RAG
Matthew B. Tepper
Yes, in Busoni's _Doktor Faust_.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: Web geek, duck admirer, SF reader, Berlioz fan
The only good spammer is a DEAD spammer. $5 REWARD for proof of a
homicide directly relating to the "victim" having been a spammer!
Visit my Berlioz page! http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
Karen Mercedes
Sorry - I meant the Busoni Mephisto, not the Berlioz. The Busoni
Mephistopheles is indeed written for tenor.
Karen Mercedes
=====
Ragbert
In article <33B151...@deltanet.com>, "Matthew B. Tepper"
<du...@deltanet.com> writes:
>> The Berlioz Mephistopheles is no tenor! (Gee, is ANY Mephisto
>> written for tenor? I can't think of one myself.)
>> --RAG
>
>Yes, in Busoni's _Doktor Faust_.
>
>
Yes, good one! Thanks! ---RAG
TomKauf2
Two quick questions:
Since when is Mephistopheles in Berlioz's Damantion of Faust a tenor?
and
If the Duke in Rigoletto is morally bankrupt, what can we say about the
present incumbent in the White House?
Tom
Abigail Brown
In article <5opba4$1...@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>, jua...@astro.temple.edu
(Justin-Jermaine D. Walker (Jay)) wrote:
> Karen Mercedes (merc...@access4.digex.net) wrote:
>
> Jay--
I believe all of Rossini's comic heroines were mezzos, so that includes
the heroines L'Italiana in Algiers and Il Turco in Italia (I forget their
names)
James Jorden
On quick question: were you always an idiot, or has listening to all
those Chris Merritt performances fried your brain?
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre
"I'm a great believer in vulgarity. All we need is a splash of bad
taste. NO taste is what I'm against."
--- Diana Vreeland
Mike Richter
> >: evil/morally bankrupt tenors. So far, we've identified:
> >:
> >: Pinkerton (in MADAMA BUTTERFLY)
> >: Paco (in de Falla's LA VIDA BREVE)
> >: Mephistopheles (in Berlioz's LA DAMNATION DE FAUST)
>
> for tenor? I can't think of one myself.)
> --RAG
The Russians usually cast a tenor as Mephisto - see Prokofiev's Flaming
Angel for a prime example.
Mike
--
mric...@mindspring.com
Opera: http://mrichter.simplenet.com
Opera Mirror: http://www.opera.it/FreeWeb/mrichter
CD-Recordable: http://resource.simplenet.com
Gilion
Tom's posting about the Duke in Rigoletto and the White House reminds me
of a psoting issued a year ago on Opera-L, here it is:
>>> Posting number 22517, dated 24 Jul 1996 07:24:45
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 07:24:45 -0400
Reply-To: Laure...@aol.com
Sender: "OPERA-L: Discussion of opera and related issues"
<OPE...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "(Lew Laurel)" <Laure...@aol.com>
Subject: White House Rigoletto
Shannon Floyd has a good idea to make an opera out of the Clinton white
house based on Rigoletto. Let me elaborate a little, although we do need
to
provide a role for Lady Hilary (Come to think of it, how do we fit Lady
Macbeth into Rigoletto?) How is this for a cast of characters:
The Duke: Bill Clinton
Gilda Paula Jones
Rigoletto Vincent Foster
Sparafucile Craig Livingstone
Countess Ceprano Gennifer Flowers
Monterone Billy Dale (travel office)
Maddalena Bill's current flame
Lady Macbeth (the Duke's
wife) Hilary Clinton
A few minor plot changes would be needed-such as an affair between
Rigoletto
(Foster) and Lady Macbeth (Hilary), with Gilda (Paula) as their daughter.
When Gilda is murdered, Rigoletto commits suicide in the Duke's (Bill's)
palace, and his body is carried off by Sparafucile (Livingstone). We also
need to have a scene between the Duke and Lady Macbeth where she catches
him
coming back in the middle of the night from one his nocturnal adventures
(with Maddalena-???) and throws a lamp at him. In the next scene, the
chorus
is planning a fund raiser to provide more lamps for Lady Macbeth, since
her
supply is running out.
Lew Laurel
Galion
Matthew B. Tepper
In article <33B1D9...@ix.netcom.com>, jjo...@ix.netcom.com was
heard to remark...
>
>TomKauf2 wrote:
>>
>> Two quick questions:
>>
>> Since when is Mephistopheles in Berlioz's Damantion of Faust a
tenor?
>>
>> and
>>
>> If the Duke in Rigoletto is morally bankrupt, what can we say about
the
>> present incumbent in the White House?
>
>On quick question: were you always an idiot, or has listening to all
>those Chris Merritt performances fried your brain?
Perhaps he's one of those Republicans who actually thinks that:
1) Patti Davis really WAS born two months premature; and
2) Michael Reagan was just some unrelated orphan that Ron and Jane
adopted out of the blue.
>--
>james jorden
>jjo...@ix.netcom.com
>http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre
>
>"I'm a great believer in vulgarity. All we need is a splash of bad
>taste. NO taste is what I'm against."
> --- Diana Vreeland
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
And my science fiction club's home page --- http://www.lasfs.org/
TomKauf2
After I wrote:
> If the Duke in Rigoletto is morally bankrupt, what can we say about the
> present incumbent in the White House?
James Jorden comes out with one of his cleverest remarks so far:
On quick question: were you always an idiot, or has listening to all
those Chris Merritt performances fried your brain?
I can only ask him whether he was always so naive and childish, or whether
writing all that filth he has on Parterre Box has caused the pea in his
head that passes for a brain to deteriorate even further? By the way, JJ's
comments make me think he might be in the market for a very well known
bridge.
Tom
Enzo62
<<James Jorden comes out with one of his cleverest remarks so far:
On quick question: were you always an idiot, or has listening to all
those Chris Merritt performances fried your brain?
I can only ask him whether he was always so naive and childish, or whether
writing all that filth he has on Parterre Box has caused the pea in his
head that passes for a brain to deteriorate even further?>>
I would not count a lengthy, in-depth interview with Deborah Voigt as
"filth." Given the gay-themed nature of Parterre Box, I can only assume
that your attack on Mr. Jorden and the quality of his publication is meant
to be homophobic and, therefore, a variant on the same kind of gay-bashing
that scars and kills queer people on a daily basis.
Enzo B.
Ragbert
In article <33B1F6...@mindspring.com>, Mike Richter
<mric...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>
>> The Berlioz Mephistopheles is no tenor! (Gee, is ANY Mephisto written
>> for tenor? I can't think of one myself.)
>> --RAG
>
>The Russians usually cast a tenor as Mephisto - see Prokofiev's Flaming
>Angel for a prime example.
>
>Mike
Now there's an opera I am totally unfamiliar with, so I looked it up in my
Kobbé. Yes, Mephisto is listed there as a tenor (not that I doubted you)
and what a plot! Do you know if any recordings exist of this? I've
always been a fan of Prokofiev' music.
--RAG
Toto
TomKauf2 wrote:
>
> After I wrote:
>
> > If the Duke in Rigoletto is morally bankrupt, what can we say about the
> > present incumbent in the White House?
>
>
> On quick question: were you always an idiot, or has listening to all
> those Chris Merritt performances fried your brain?
>
> I can only ask him whether he was always so naive and childish, or whether
> writing all that filth he has on Parterre Box has caused the pea in his
> comments make me think he might be in the market for a very well known
> bridge.
>
Blaha
Mallardo7
Isn't Mephistopheles in The Fiery Angel also a tenor? Frankly I think the
character is best - i.e. most chillingly - captured by the tenor voice.
paul
RAG wrote>
> Kobbé. Yes, Mephisto is listed there as a tenor (not that I doubted you)
> and what a plot! Do you know if any recordings exist of this? I've
> always been a fan of Prokofiev' music.
> --RAG
>
>
>You owe it to yourself to get this. If you like video, buy the video
production (same cast as the cd) with Galina Guleghina, it is absolutely
sizzlin' ... the production is terrificly ghastly and the acting,
playing and singing 1st rate.
Paul.
John Lynch
Ragbert wrote:
>
> In article <33B1F6...@mindspring.com>, Mike Richter
> <mric...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> >>
> >> The Berlioz Mephistopheles is no tenor! (Gee, is ANY Mephisto written
> >> for tenor? I can't think of one myself.)
> >> --RAG
> >
> >The Russians usually cast a tenor as Mephisto - see Prokofiev's Flaming
> >Angel for a prime example.
> >
> >Mike
>
> Kobbé. Yes, Mephisto is listed there as a tenor (not that I doubted you)
> and what a plot! Do you know if any recordings exist of this? I've
> always been a fan of Prokofiev' music.
> --RAG
There was a recording on the old Westminster Gold label. Check with your
local used record shop.
--
John Lynch
jly...@ultranet.com
jly...@fas.harvard.edu
Karen Mercedes
Feel better now, darling?
KM
Karen Mercedes
I think there's at least one recording of THE FIERY ANGEL available in the
U.S. - a Kirov Opera recording (which, unfortunately, means *expensive*).
I think there may also be a video of the opera available from Opera World.
Karen Mercedes
Peter
Remember the Ring, as Anna Russell might say!
What about Mime as a tenor villain, and Erda as a mezzo/contralto
heroine?
Mike Richter
paul wrote:
>
> RAG wrote>
> > Now there's an opera I am totally unfamiliar with, so I looked it up in my
> > Kobbé. Yes, Mephisto is listed there as a tenor (not that I doubted you)
> > and what a plot! Do you know if any recordings exist of this? I've
> > always been a fan of Prokofiev' music.
> > --RAG
>
> >
> >
> production (same cast as the cd) with Galina Guleghina, it is absolutely
> sizzlin' ... the production is terrificly ghastly and the acting,
> playing and singing 1st rate.
>
> Paul.
FWIW - the video is in the short list of favorite LD's at my WWW site.
The opera is superb, the production is stunning (and appropriately
shocking) and the performance is first rate throughout.
James Jorden
The one between the verses of "La donna e mobile", do you mean? All
right, Mr. Kaufman, on what basis do you compare the Duke and Mr.
Clinton? Or do you figure your smarmy innuendo is so clever that you
don't need to bother with proof, logic, or even an original accusation?
I invite members of this group to judge for themselves about the filth
content of "parterre box", which, by the way, was in the past two months
the subject of very complimentary features in "Out" and "Time Out New
York" magazines and "The New York Times". The URL is
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre.
To any of you who lack web access I will be glad to mail a copy of the
most recent issue. Just email me your snailmail address.
Finally, I find it uproariously ironic that a Chris Merritt devotee
should use the word "filth" to describe anything!