How do you translate the word " Neidliches"
Charlie Chan
In Siegfired's forging song " Nothung ! Neidliches Schwert ! "
How do you translate the word " Neidliches" literally here ?
Thanks in advance .
Charlie from Taiwan
Matthew B. Tepper
Is it really Needful that you find out?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Hans Christian Hoff
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:D%7e6.998$ln1....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> ch...@ms8.hinet.net (Charlie Chan) wrote in
<95aq42$6...@netnews.hinet.net>:
>
> >Dear Wagnerians on this NG :
> >
> >In Siegfired's forging song " Nothung ! Neidliches Schwert ! "
> >How do you translate the word " Neidliches" literally here ?
> >
> >Thanks in advance .
> >Charlie from Taiwan
>
> Is it really Needful that you find out?
The word used in the text is not *neidliches* but *neitliches*.
The word 'Neid' means 'envy'; thus 'neidisch' means 'envious'.
The word 'neitlich' is archaic and is usually not to be found in ordinary
wordbooks; it does however mean something like 'beautiful' or 'wonderful'.
The word Not means need, emergency or necessity, as in Notstand (critical
situation) or Notausgang (emergency exit) .
Regards
Hans
regards
hans
Mark D. Lew
oy兀earthlink.net (Matthew B. Tepper) wrote:
> Is it really Needful that you find out?
But wouldn't that be something like "notwendig"?
When Alberich says, in cursing the Ring, "wer ihn nicht hat den nage der
Neid," he's not really talking about plain Need, is he? More like envy, I
should think.
mdl
mauriz
Mark D. Lew schrieb in Nachricht ...
Yes, of course: "Neid" means envy, and as Hans pointed out the archaic "neitlich" means something like "beautiful" or "wonderful" -
considering the Lautverschiebung I guess that's where the German "niedlich" (though in a different - and somehow diminishing -
meaning) derives from, but probably as well the English "neat" - which might give a hint of the special meaning.
Stephan
Capa0848
>From: "Charlie Chan" ch...@ms8.hinet.net
>Date: 01/31/2001 8:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <95aq42$6...@netnews.hinet.net>
------------------
My knowledge of German is very limited, but since that's never stopped me
before --
Would others agree that translating Wagner *too* literally, can be problematic,
especially when he is being alliterative?
Often, it seems to me, he is as much concerned with the sound of a word as with
its precise meaning. I think he intends for the listener to infer shades of
meaning from the context at times.
Just my two Deutschmarks.
Regards,
Pat
These things are doubtless: yet in truth we've had
Strange thunders from the potency of song;
Mingled indeed with what is sweet and strong,
From majesty:
Keats Sleep and Poetry
britt...@my-deja.com
Mark, of course you're absolutely right, "Neid" is not at all "Need."
I think Matthew is making a joke here about the name of the sword,
Nothung, from "Not."
Britta
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
britt...@my-deja.com
"Hans Christian Hoff" <hch...@c2i.net> wrote:
> The word used in the text is not *neidliches* but *neitliches*.
>
> The word 'Neid' means 'envy'; thus 'neidisch' means 'envious'.
Gosh, what text do you have? Mine definitely says "neidlich." Of
course, as you say, from "Neid." "Neidisch" -- envious.
"Neidlich," a word more or less invented by Wagner --- worthy of,
and capable of inspiring, envy and greed.
> The word 'neitlich' is archaic and is usually not to be found in
ordinary
> wordbooks; it does however mean something like 'beautiful'
or 'wonderful'.
Of course absolutely right, but I think Wagner, given his famous
talent for inventing new words, was coming straight from "Neid"
in this case. But, I may be wrong, and it is certainly an
interesting point you bring up.
>
> The word Not means need, emergency or necessity, as in Notstand
(critical
> situation) or Notausgang (emergency exit) .
Or "Nothung," which I think was Matthew's reference.
best regards, Britta
Wotan99
>problematic,
> especially when he is being alliterative?
>
When is he not "being" alliterative?
Translating any poetry from one language to another is always an impossibility
>Often, it seems to me, he is as much concerned with the sound of a word as
>with
>its precise meaning.
Oh, I think he is concerned with the sound-the entire poetic form he uses is
highly sound oriented-but also being Wagner, I'm just as sure that the meaning
was not intended to be vague
W
Hans Christian Hoff
<britt...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:95br38$k07$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <zxae6.1559$lS6....@news1.oke.nextra.no>,
> "Hans Christian Hoff" <hch...@c2i.net> wrote:
>
>
> > The word used in the text is not *neidliches* but *neitliches*.
> >
> > The word 'Neid' means 'envy'; thus 'neidisch' means 'envious'.
>
> Gosh, what text do you have? Mine definitely says "neidlich." Of
> course, as you say, from "Neid." "Neidisch" -- envious.
> "Neidlich," a word more or less invented by Wagner --- worthy of,
> and capable of inspiring, envy and greed.
>
> > The word 'neitlich' is archaic and is usually not to be found in
> ordinary
> > wordbooks; it does however mean something like 'beautiful'
> or 'wonderful'.
>
> Of course absolutely right, but I think Wagner, given his famous
> talent for inventing new words, was coming straight from "Neid"
> in this case. But, I may be wrong, and it is certainly an
> interesting point you bring up.
You may very well be right; the post was sent from my office, which does not
abound in musical reference wotks ! I have now returned home, and have checked
with the only complete text I have (downloaded from the net, BTW), and this
undoubtedly says 'NeiDlich'. I do, however, have an old German book with
several drawings from Wagner's operas, and one is of Siegfried swinging Nothung
over his head , and the words runs 'Nothung, Nothung, NeiTliches Schwert !' I
should tend to believe that the text is correct and the caption to the drawing
is wrong, though.
This may very well account for the absence of the word neiTlich from the
dictionarys. ;-). But then, I did not invent the word, either, and was certain
that I did repeat something I had learned somewhere. May be this is the stuff
that urban legends are made of !
The pronunciation should be exactly identical, whatever alternative !
Ruefully
Hans
The pronunciation will be identical whatever is right, I believe
Edward A. Cowan
> In Siegfired's forging song " Nothung ! Neidliches Schwert ! "
> How do you translate the word " Neidliches" literally here ?
"Enviable" (Neid = "envy")
Actually, the form "neidlich" seems to have been a neologism by Wagner
(he was good at that! -- OTOH German lends itself to new word-formations
according to the "tinker toy" priniciple <g>). William Mann translates
the word as "trusty". Ernest Newman's singing translation renders it as
"masterful". I think the idea is that this sword is one of a kind, a
wonderful kind, and therefore a sword to be most highly desired.
--
E.A.C.
james jorden
In other words, "Nothung, the sword that everybody wants to have."
Capa0848 wrote in message <20010201084908...@ng-mo1.aol.com>...
mauriz
britt...@my-deja.com schrieb in Nachricht <95br38$k07$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <zxae6.1559$lS6....@news1.oke.nextra.no>,
> "Hans Christian Hoff" <hch...@c2i.net> wrote:
>
>
>> The word used in the text is not *neidliches* but *neitliches*.
>>
>> The word 'Neid' means 'envy'; thus 'neidisch' means 'envious'.
>
>Gosh, what text do you have? Mine definitely says "neidlich." Of
>course, as you say, from "Neid." "Neidisch" -- envious.
>"Neidlich," a word more or less invented by Wagner --- worthy of,
>and capable of inspiring, envy and greed.
>
>> The word 'neitlich' is archaic and is usually not to be found in
>ordinary
>> wordbooks; it does however mean something like 'beautiful'
>or 'wonderful'.
>
>Of course absolutely right, but I think Wagner, given his famous
>talent for inventing new words, was coming straight from "Neid"
>in this case. But, I may be wrong, and it is certainly an
>interesting point you bring up.
I'll leave the further discussion to the Wagner specialists - but as famous as Wagner's talent for inventing new words might be: the
medieval "neitlîch" (or later "nietlîch") - in its meaning: well-done, accurate, pure - fits the context and the changing from "t"
to "d" is quite common ... but then: the word that comes to my mind first in this context is "leitlîch" which changed to "leidlich"
(though in a completely different meaning than today), meaning "leidvoll", i.e: full of sorrow (or maybe better grief?) - and this
is of course a strong incidence for "neitlîch" or "neidlich" deriving straight from "Neid" ...
Anyway, I'll return to Strauss and Hofmannsthal - da weiß ich, woran ich bin
Regards, Stephan
britt...@my-deja.com
"mauriz" <zepp...@telering.at> wrote:
> I'll leave the further discussion to the Wagner specialists - but as
>famous as Wagner's talent for inventing new words might be: the
> medieval "neitlîch" (or later "nietlîch") - in its meaning: well-
>done, accurate, pure - fits the context and the changing from "t"
> to "d" is quite common ... but then: the word that comes to my mind
>first in this context is "leitlîch" which changed to "leidlich"
> (though in a completely different meaning than today),
>meaning "leidvoll", i.e: full of sorrow (or maybe better grief?) - and
>this
> is of course a strong incidence for "neitlîch" or "neidlich" deriving
>straight from "Neid" ...
Trying to have it both ways, aren't you? Doppelt gemoppelt!
Surely (as you said before, Lautverschiebung) "neitlich" became
our present "niedlich." Whereas "neidlich" is a newer invention,
very typical of Wagner.
Trivia question for Wagnerites: in one single sentence, Fafner
makes two grammatical errors in German. What is the sentence, and
what are his errors?
> Anyway, I'll return to Strauss and Hofmannsthal - da weiß ich, woran
>ich bin
Or we could all consider Buchner and Wozzeck -- Dann wuesste man,
woran man ist!!
schoene Gruesse aus Muenchen,
mauriz
britt...@my-deja.com schrieb in Nachricht <95cib8$b94$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>Trying to have it both ways, aren't you? Doppelt gemoppelt!
Touché! (Das kommt davon, wenn einem langweilig genug ist, irgendetwas Unnoetiges an r.m.o. zu schreiben, aber nicht langweilig
genug, nachzuschlagen ...)
>> Anyway, I'll return to Strauss and Hofmannsthal - da weiß ich, woran
>>ich bin
>Or we could all consider Buchner and Wozzeck -- Dann wuesste man,
>woran man ist!!
Aber wenn der Germanist sich schon bei Wagner der Musikwissenschafterin geschlagen geben muss ... at last he takes revenge and
insists on an "Y" für Buechners WOYZECK :-)
Liebe Gruesse nach Muenchen,
Stephan
britt...@my-deja.com
"mauriz" <zepp...@telering.at> wrote:
> Aber wenn der Germanist sich schon bei Wagner der
>Musikwissenschafterin geschlagen geben muss ... at last he takes
>revenge and
> insists on an "Y" für Buechners WOYZECK :-)
You are SOOOOO right!!! When I read my post on the board and
realized that I had let Alban Berg influence my spelling,
you could have heard me shouting SCHEISSE all the way from Muenchen
to Berlin. I KNEW you wouldn't let me get away with it!
ziemlich klein, auch mit Hut, but still having fun,
Britta
(To the resident New Yorkers: We don'unnerstand youse guys when ya
talk dat Big City lingo neether)
Mark D. Lew
<zepp...@telering.at> wrote:
> Yes, of course: "Neid" means envy, and as Hans pointed out the archaic
"neitlich" means something like "beautiful" or "wonderful" -
> considering the Lautverschiebung I guess that's where the German
"niedlich" (though in a different - and somehow diminishing -
> meaning) derives from, but probably as well the English "neat" - which
might give a hint of the special meaning.
The English "neat" derives ultimately from Latin niteo/nitere, to shine.
Whether the German words come from the same root, I couldn't say. The
change from d to t seems normal enough to me, but I wouldn't have thought
the "ie" and "ei" vowel sounds to be lautverschiebable. But I'm way out of
my element here, so I'll take your word for it.
--
In article <20010201084908...@ng-mo1.aol.com>, capa...@aol.com
(Capa0848) wrote:
> Often, it seems to me, he is as much concerned with the sound of a word
as with
> its precise meaning. I think he intends for the listener to infer shades of
> meaning from the context at times.
Not just the sounds. Wagner really does like to invent new words, or
recycle obsolete ones. He seems especially fond of making slight
alterations to words to give them different connotations. Many of his
proper names seem to do this.
mdl
Mark D. Lew
> Aber wenn der Germanist sich schon bei Wagner der Musikwissenschafterin
geschlagen geben muss ... at last he takes revenge and
> insists on an "Y" für Buechners WOYZECK :-)
"Woyzeck" is the German spelling of "Wojciech", a fairly common name in
Polish. One of the last communist leaders of Poland was Gen Wojciech
Jaruzelski.
I have no idea where Berg's "Wozzeck" spelling came from. Was it
intentional? It almost looks like a typo.
mdl
mauriz
Mark D. Lew schrieb in Nachricht ...
Starting point for Georg Buechner's WOYZECK (1836) was the real case of Johann Christian Woyzeck who had murdered his mistress and
was executed in 1824. Buechner who had finished his doctoral thesis about the nervous system in 1835 gave his first lecture at the
University of Zurich (1836) where he focussed on a connection between physiological phenomenon, psychology and philosophy. Therefore
he was most interested in the extended medical certificates about Woyzeck published in Germany during his process and even the years
after his execution. Buechner's spelling follows the real name. So far the germanist regarding Buechner ... as far as he knows (but
Britta might as well correct him again) used Berg the first (1879) edition by Karl Emil Franzos who misread in Buechner's manuscript
the Y in Woyzeck's name as another Z which easily could happen with the ancient German form of the character Z, that used to have
the same loop like the Y (a bit similar like today's G).
BTW, as much as I love Berg: Buechner is probably the most exciting German author in 19th century - considering that he died at only
24 it's impossible to imagine how important his influence might have become. If you ever get the chance to read a good English
translation (and I mean GOOD, because even most of the German editions smoothed away many of Buechner's bold constructions, i.e.
especially level his syntax and punctuation; the title WOZZECK of Franzos' edition is quite symptomatic) - don't hesitate! LENZ is
one of the best novels ever, and the comedy LEONCE UND LENA (the boldest playing with disrespectful quotations out of nearly every
literary work famous at Buechner's time) manages to be both the most poetic text you can imagine AND a furious and cynical criticism
of the contemporary social and political injustices - JUST MARVELOUS!!! ... sorry, I'm getting off-topic :-)
Regards, Stephan
Christina West
news:95dv5r$keh$1...@news-vie-pub-p.1012internet.at...
> Starting point for Georg Buechner's WOYZECK (1836)
Very interesting post, Stephan. 'Woyzeck' is an extraordinary play. It's
hard to believe it was written in 1836, so 'modern' does it seem
Re your post, could I suggest that you go into Outlook Express's Tools ->
Options, and click the 'Send' tab? Under 'Mail sending format' click the
'Plain text settings...' button. In the new window, set 'Automatically wrap
text at' to 70 or thereabouts, click 'OK' and again 'OK'. At the moment
your posts are arriving with a line length of 130, which makes them very
awkward to read.
I hope you don't mind me pointing this out.
Christina
Christina West
xi...@ukhgateway.net
mauriz
Christina West schrieb in Nachricht <95eaio$n6u$3...@lure.pipex.net>...
No, of course not! Thanks for the hint - I somehow always have to
concentrate on how to express myself properly in English that I hadn't
found the time yet to check out why my posts tend to look so strange
on the board :-)
Well, I've already followed your instructions - let me see if it works
...
Regards, Stephan
britt...@my-deja.com
"mauriz" <zepp...@telering.at> wrote:
> So far the germanist regarding Buechner ... as far as he knows (but
> Britta might as well correct him again) used Berg the first (1879)
>edition by Karl Emil Franzos who misread in Buechner's manuscript
> the Y in Woyzeck's name as another Z which easily could happen with
>the ancient German form of the character Z, that used to have
> the same loop like the Y (a bit similar like today's G).
Lieber Herr Kollege Germanist,
Die Musikwissenschafterin gibt Ihnen vollkommen Recht. That's the
way I've always heard the story too.
After so many years of Wozzeck, it's hard to remember poor old
Woyzeck. But what a story, and what a writer!
best regards,
deverett
>
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:D%7e6.998$ln1....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > ch...@ms8.hinet.net (Charlie Chan) wrote in
> <95aq42$6...@netnews.hinet.net>:
> >
> > >Dear Wagnerians on this NG :
> > >
> > >In Siegfired's forging song " Nothung ! Neidliches Schwert ! "
> > >How do you translate the word " Neidliches" literally here ?
> > >
> > >Thanks in advance .
> > >Charlie from Taiwan
> >
> > Is it really Needful that you find out?
>
> The word used in the text is not *neidliches* but *neitliches*.
>
> The word 'Neid' means 'envy'; thus 'neidisch' means 'envious'.
>
> The word 'neitlich' is archaic and is usually not to be found in ordinary
> wordbooks; it does however mean something like 'beautiful' or 'wonderful'.
>
You are on the right track there, Hans, although the word used in
Wagner's text (poem) is "neidliches". As far as I can see, Wagner
invented the word "neidliches" from the MHG "nitlich" (with a circumflex
over the first i) meaning "hostile" or "fearsome". So what Siegmund
means is, "Nothung! Nothung! Fearsome steel!"
--
Derrick Everett (deverett at c2i.net)
britt...@my-deja.com
deverett <deve...@mailcircuit.com> wrote:
> You are on the right track there, Hans, although the word used in
> Wagner's text (poem) is "neidliches". As far as I can see, Wagner
> invented the word "neidliches" from the MHG "nitlich" (with a
>circumflex
> over the first i) meaning "hostile" or "fearsome". So what Siegmund
> means is, "Nothung! Nothung! Fearsome steel!"
Oh no, please don't confuse the issue just when we have resolved it
so peaceably. "Neidlich" comes from "Neid."
Take a look at how Wagner uses this word. Loge, referring to the
Nibelungen Hort: So neidlichen sah ich noch nie. Like Nothung,
the Hort is capable of inspiring Neid, or envy.
Or Alberich, speaking to the Rheintoechter: Wie seid Ihr niedlich,
neidliches Volk! They are certainly enviable, those girls, but
fearsome they ain't.
Believe me, this isn't MHG. It's not even normal German. It's
Grade-A 99% pure Wagner Deutsch.
Christina West
> Christina West schrieb in Nachricht <95eaio$n6u$3...@lure.pipex.net>...
> >Re your post, could I suggest that you go into Outlook Express's
> > [...]
> >I hope you don't mind me pointing this out.
> No, of course not!
> [...]
> Well, I've already followed your instructions - let me see if it works
Yes, it does! - much better - thanks!
Christina
Christina West
xi...@ukgateway.net
Derrick Everett
It's certainly the last of those!
OK, if "Neidlich" derives from Neid (envy, jealousy, grudge) how do you
feel about "Neidspiel"? Fafner to Wotan:
"Leicht wird dir's mit list'ger Gewalt
was im Neidspiel nie uns gelang,
den Nibelungen fest zu fah'n."
britt...@my-deja.com
Derrick Everett <deve...@mailcircuit.com> wrote:
> OK, if "Neidlich" derives from Neid (envy, jealousy, grudge) how do
>you
> feel about "Neidspiel"?
In all sincerity, I don't understand your question.
Neidlich, deriving from Neid, is roughly synonymous with
beneidenswert. Worthy of, capable of inspiring, envy and the wish
to possess. "Enviable" is probably the closest English equivalent,
although I'm feeling less and less competent in this language as
this discussion goes on.
Neidspiel refers to a contest or struggle which has its origin in
envy and greed, the wish to possess for oneself something which
someone else has (and which you probably begrudge the other person
having).
As I assume that you understand what is going on here between Wotan
and the Riesen, I really don't understand your question.
Sorry. Maybe someone else can help us out here.
Gute Nacht, Britta in Munich
Charlie Chan
Than you for your and others' replies .
Before I post the question , I guessed that Wagner invented the word out of
" Neid " , but the dictinary and all the translation editions I got failed
to prove that .
The examples you picked from Loge and Alberich has fully proved that .
I wonder why in the several Enlish translations I've read , there's nothing
close to that meaning ?
Thanks to all.
Charlie from Taiwan
britt...@my-deja.com
"Charlie Chan" <ch...@ms8.hinet.net> wrote:
> Before I post the question , I guessed that Wagner invented the word
>out of
> " Neid " , but the dictinary and all the translation editions I got
>failed
> to prove that .
> The examples you picked from Loge and Alberich has fully proved that .
> I wonder why in the several Enlish translations I've read , there's
>nothing
> close to that meaning ?
I can think of lots of reasons.
1 In the sort of translation readily available, people are looking for
one word to translate one word, and there is no real English
equivalent. In explaining Wagner to German-speakers, I have often
used the word "beneidenswert," which is close enough, but in English
one has to either give a long explanation, or use some word which
misses a lot of the meaning. (I have sometimes, in a hurry, just
said "admirable.") "Enviable sword" just confuses people more.
(BTW, I thought that James Jorden did very well with "the sword that
everybody wants to have.")
2 Most translators are going from the foreign language into the
native language, which is as it should be, but it means that they
are less able to recognize the sort of game-playing with language
that Wagner uses constantly and consistently throughout his works
than a native German speaker is. In German, we still are able to do
this sort of thing all the time. I think it is less easy in
English, although Mark Lew gave us a very good example of a
non-existent, invented-on-the-spot English word, which was
instantly understandable: lautverschiebable.
3 Most people would rather spend thirty seconds with a dictionary,
which presents you with red herrings like MHG, than spend two
minutes thinking something over logically.
4 For the majority of academics, the simple and logical explanation
can't possibly be right. The more complex and obscure the
reasoning is, the more they like it.
5 (Continuing my anti-academic rant) People don't seem to want to
realize that this playing around with words is FUN, and really not
all that complicated. No, it's Wagner, so it has to be deep and
heavy and filled with arcane mysticism. Quatsch!
regards, Britta
Mark D. Lew
> 3 Most people would rather spend thirty seconds with a dictionary,
> which presents you with red herrings like MHG, than spend two
> minutes thinking something over logically.
On this one point I dissent. If the "several English translations" Charlie
has read are the ones I assume they are (ie, Spencer, Salter, Mann,
Jameson, Porter), then I don't think it's at all fair to imply that the
translators are simply looking up words in a dictionary without spending
much time thinking it over.
mdl
james jorden
coveted by Mime, and would be by everyone else if they know its power.)
But "coveted" of course would not apply accurately when Alberich calls the
Rhine-Daughters "neidliches Volk." There one would say "attractive" or
"alluring."
What is in common in the two usages, though, is the sense that the inanimate
object inspires an emotion in the observer; i.e., "I must have that." This
of course is one of the more sinister "powers" of the Ring, instigating envy
and greed.
britt...@my-deja.com wrote
Peter
First let's look at the whole paragraph:
Alberich sings in Rheingold:
Hehe! Ihr Nicker!
Wie seid ihr niedlich,
neidliches Volk!
Aus Niebelheims Nacht
naht' ich mich gern,
neigtet ihr euch zu mir.
Hehe you nixies!
How cute you are,
You "to be envied" people!
From Niebelheim's night
I would gladly draw closer
Would I believe that you would approach me. (my translation)
It seems obvious to me that Wagner here plays the words "niedlich" and
"neidlich" against each other.
I think there's little question that all the "Neid-containing" words somehow
refer to envy and nothing else. Of course in order to discover who is envious
of whom you must carefully study the original German Ring text.
James Jorden wrote:
But "coveted" of course would not apply accurately when Alberich calls the
Rhine-Daughters "neidliches Volk." There one would say "attractive" or
"alluring."
In order to try and understand Wagner and some of his more obscure meanings, I
think that it is indeed necessary to examine whole paragraphs of his prose
writings at a time, and not just "extracted" words. In my opinion this holds
true whether one speaks German or English.
Peter Ullman
james jorden
>Hehe you nixies!
>How cute you are,
>You "to be envied" people
But does a man (or even a dwarf) look at a woman he finds sexually
attractive and thinks, "Oh, I envy her!" ("If I had thighs like that I would
wear hiphugger jeans every day of the week!" One can imagine, say, Froh
taking this attitude, but not Alberich.)
What's to envy about a nixie, anyway? They're empty-headed, giggly and wet.
jj
Oisk17
>
>What's to envy about a nixie, anyway? They're empty-headed, giggly and wet.
They play a more important role in the modern opera..."Nixie in China."
Paul
Hans Christian Hoff
"Oisk17" <ois...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010204015147...@ng-mm1.aol.com...
> >From: "james jorden"
>
> >
> >What's to envy about a nixie, anyway? They're empty-headed, giggly and wet.
>
> They play a more important role in the modern opera..."Nixie in China."
>
Nix !
Regards
Hans
Matthew B. Tepper
<vxdf6.1595$Xp4.1...@juliett.dax.net>:
The first time Richard Nixon ran for president was 1960, and I recall as a
young boy buying the bumper stickers saying "NIXON" for a nickel each,
cutting one neatly and then arranging them on a fence thus:
NIX
ON
NIXON
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
tresbirri
britt...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Trivia question for Wagnerites: in one single sentence, Fafner
> makes two grammatical errors in German. What is the sentence, and
> what are his errors?
Liebste Britta,
I know very well, to discuss Wagner with you, one must be very brave.
But is it possible, only an Italian is so foolish to try to answer
this question? I am curious, so I suggest:
Teil ich den Hort, billig behalt' ich die groesste Haelfte fuer mich.
Now, be kind! and tell us the correct answer, please!
your devoted tresbirri
Edward A. Cowan
> I am curious, so I suggest:
>
> Teil ich den Hort, billig behalt' ich die groesste Haelfte fuer mich.
>
> Now, be kind! and tell us the correct answer, please!
I doubt that this citation is the "answer" to the question about two
grammatical errors. There are none here: "Teil" omits the final 'e' for
the subjunctive use ("*If* I share the hoard..."), but it is elided with
the first syllable of "ich", so it's there, but hidden. <g> "Behalt'"
has the apostrophe for the missing 'e' there, and again it is elided
with "ich" ("... then I'll keep the biggest half for myself."). There
may be a solipsism (_groesste_ and not the logical _groessere_, there
being only *two* halves possible), but there is no grammatical mistake
in this line.
I'm still waiting for the answer. Il tempo passa...
--
E.A.C.
britt...@my-deja.com
tresbirri <tres...@my-deja.com>:
> Teil ich den Hort, billig behalt' ich die groesste Haelfte fuer mich.
Three cheers and his choice of cigar for the gentleman from Bologna!
"Die groesste Haelfte" is doubly incorrect, just as, it seems to me,
"the biggest half" would be doubly incorrect in English.
First of all, half is half. One half is not bigger than the other
half. Second, when comparing two objects, one is the bigger of
the two, not the biggest. (In German at least, it is very
incorrect to say "the oldest of my two sons," for instance.)
Correct would be something like "the larger part," or "the bigger
portion." But then of course we would miss that poetry....what's
a poor giant to do?
all my very best wishes,
Britta
(Beckmesser, keiner besser!)
Hans Christian Hoff
<britt...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:95mrk4$8cj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
I am usually no defender of Wagner when it comes to his literary efforts, but I
cannot help wondering if it could be that this is an attempt at humour ? 'The
biggest half' is perhaps not a very sophisticated joke, but then, where do you
find sophisticated dragons ?
Regards
Hans
britt...@my-deja.com
"Hans Christian Hoff" <hch...@c2i.net> wrote:
> I am usually no defender of Wagner when it comes to his literary
>efforts, but I
> cannot help wondering if it could be that this is an attempt at
>humour ? 'The
> biggest half' is perhaps not a very sophisticated joke, but then,
>where do you
> find sophisticated dragons ?
This is a wonderful observation, and you made me laugh and think at
the same time --- that's not easy! Thank you very much, and the
more I think about it, you may be absolutely right. This was a new
way of looking at it for me, I really appreciate your comment!
Best regards and thanks,
Britta
BTW, do you know the famous unpublished addition to the scene
Wotan/Alberich, in front of Fafner's cave? It begins:
Wohnt hier in der Gegend der singende Drache?
Wir haben fuer ihn eine dringende Sache!
;-) (Yes, y'all, this is a joke)
Peter
I do believe that it is appropriate in both colloquial English and
colloquial German to say the "bigger half." Mothers frequently use such
terms when dealing with children and food, etc. We also frequently say
"Please give me the smaller half of that pie, etc.
I do however agree that from a correct grammatical viewpoint Wagner should
have written "grössere Hälfte", since there can only be two halves, no
matter how they are apportioned.
tresbirri
britt...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Three cheers and his choice of cigar for the gentleman from Bologna!
Piff, paff! Piff, paff, piff, pouf!!
No, niente paura. I am not singing an aria from Les Huguenots.
(Although some Meyerbeer, it would be good with so much Wagner,
poor Don Tomasso is suffering!) I must write in English Puff puff!
I am enjoying my cigar.
molto orgoglioso, tresbirri
(Also, I am very pleased. A good thread, everyone is interesting
and courteous. A pleasure, thank you!)
britt...@my-deja.com
Peter <p_ul...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I do believe that it is appropriate in both colloquial English and
> colloquial German to say the "bigger half." Mothers frequently use
>such
> terms when dealing with children and food, etc. We also frequently
>say
> "Please give me the smaller half of that pie, etc.
Common, maybe, but appropriate? C'mon, a half is a half, and
one half is exactly equal to the other half, whether it's the
Nibelungenhort or the Streuselkuchen that a mother is trying
to divide between (not "among," I always have to remember!) her
two children.
Sure, I remember my mother trying to deal with it: One of you
cuts the cake into two pieces, the other one gets to choose which
piece he wants to have! Still, the cake was cut into two pieces,
not into two halves. Die Hälfte ist die Hälfte, exactly equal
to the other half, otherwise it's not die Hälfte, it's just one
of two parts.
47, 48, 49 --- part of 100. Half of 100 --- 50, and nothing else.
That said, thank you for your friendly and thoughtful comments!
I really didn't mean this to be taken so seriously. It's an old
joke, you know, that Fafner doesn't speak very grammatically. I
didn't intend that anybody should get worried about it, I just
thought I would throw the old joke into the discussion to lighten
things up. I'm sincerely sorry if I gave the impression that I was
making fun of Fafner, or Wagner, or German grammar, oder sonstwas.
It was intended as a bit of fun, that's all.
Wow, one never knows with this newsgroup!
Thanks again, and please accept my apology,
Britta
> > "Die groesste Haelfte" is doubly incorrect, just as, it seems to
>>me,
> > "the biggest half" would be doubly incorrect in English.
> >
> > First of all, half is half. One half is not bigger than the other
> > half.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Matthew B. Tepper
>In article <95mrk4$8cj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> britt...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> Three cheers and his choice of cigar for the gentleman from Bologna!
>
>Piff, paff! Piff, paff, piff, pouf!!
>
>No, niente paura. I am not singing an aria from Les Huguenots.
Doesn't the presence of the "pouf" make it a specific reference to an
Offenbach parody of Meyerbeer?
Mark D. Lew
> First of all, half is half. One half is not bigger than the other
> half.
Well, I don't know about German, but in English I am thoroughly unconvinced
by grammatical "rules" which insist on mathematical precision for common
everyday words. Are you telling us that it is grammatically incorrect to
speak of "half a loaf" unless we know that the slice has been carefully
measured so that the two halves are precisely equal? If Pat calls the fair
Kathleen his "better half" is he grammatically incorrect because they are
not the same size? Is it grammatically incorrect to call my idea
"half-baked" if they are not exactly midway between baked and unbaked?
Clearly a half is still a half even if it is not precisely 50% of the
whole. One half can indeed be larger than the other.
(And likewise for "the most complete", "very unique", "a more perfect
union", etc.)
mdl
orp...@my-deja.com
oy兀earthlink.net (Matthew B. Tepper) wrote:
> tres...@my-deja.com (tresbirri) wrote in
<95nd2p$peh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
>
> >In article <95mrk4$8cj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > britt...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >> Three cheers and his choice of cigar for the gentleman from
Bologna!
> >
> >Piff, paff! Piff, paff, piff, pouf!!
> >
this is the entrance song of the general Boum
from Offenbach's wonderful operetta 'la grande duchesse de Gerolstein'
first performance Paris, April 12, 1867.
There is a wonderful recording at CBS
with Regine Crespin, Alain Vanzo, Mady Mesple under Michel Plasson.
Have fun
Orphee
Christina West
"Edward A. Cowan" <eac...@anet-dfw.com> wrote in message
news:1eocnqz.x3t2ud4c141uN%eac...@anet-dfw.com...
> tresbirri <tres...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Teil ich den Hort, billig behalt' ich die groesste Haelfte fuer mich.
> I doubt that this citation is the "answer" to the question about two
> grammatical errors. There are none here:
> There may be a solipsism (_groesste_ and not the logical _groessere_,
there
> being only *two* halves possible), but there is no grammatical mistake
> in this line.
As a non-German speaker, I am prepared to accept your assertion that to
speak of a 'largest' half as ooposed to a 'larger' half is not a grammatical
error in German, as it certainly is in English.
However, it's surely a semantic error in any language to speak of a 'larger'
/or/ a 'largest' half, since halves are, by definition, equal in size.
Christina
Christina West
xi...@ukgateway.net
Valfer
half" of the Florida votes? Grammar aside, language is a wonderful subject.
Valfer
<britt...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:95nkh6$16$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Capa0848
>From: "Valfer" val...@msn.com
>Date: 02/08/2001 9:43 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <OeO8qYfkAHA.277@cpmsnbbsa07>
>
>Did not G.W. Bush (not to be confused with W.C. Fields) get the "bigger half"
of the Florida votes?
>Valfer
================
Depends upon what the meaning of "get" is; or should I say, what the meaning of
a "vote" is.
Or something.
In any event,
"It's over and can't be helped, and that's one consolation, as they always say
in Turkey, ven they cuts the wrong man's head off."
Sam Weller
Anna Mosler
The word "neidlich" is not a correct german word! This Word is a buildt from
NEID, this is envy.
"neidlich" is like "envious-of"
The sentence "Das Schwert ist neidlich" tells: the other people envy him the
sword.
Anna
Germany
"Charlie Chan" <ch...@ms8.hinet.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:95aq42$6...@netnews.hinet.net...
> Dear Wagnerians on this NG :
>
> In Siegfired's forging song " Nothung ! Neidliches Schwert ! "
> How do you translate the word " Neidliches" literally here ?
>
> Thanks in advance .
> Charlie from Taiwan
>
>
>
M. Slater
>The word "neidlich" is not a correct german word!
It is in Wagnersprache.
garstigglatterglichtricheglimmer!
Mark
Mark D. Lew
harpsic...@aol.com (M. Slater) wrote:
> It is in Wagnersprache.
>
> garstigglatterglichtricheglimmer!
Continuing the tradition of Schiller.
I don't recall ever seeing "Götterfunken" or "feuertrunken" in any dictionary.
mdl
mauriz
Mark D. Lew schrieb in Nachricht ...
But that's not a tradition of Schiller (or anyone else), but just a
common feature of the German language, allowing nearly any kind of
compounds - you would hardly believe which sorts of "Trunkenheit" German
baroque writers were able to think of :-)
Stephan
David Moore
usual adjective form is neidisch. I assume that neidlich is a
Wagnerian variation, perhaps chosen for euphony. I long thought
the intended meaning was "greedy," which fits a sword but is a
stretch.
David
Bruce B. Reynolds
harpsic...@aol.com (M. Slater) writes:
>It is in Wagnersprache.
>
>garstigglatterglichtricheglimmer!
>
Wo ist der Fremdenverkehrsburo bitte???
--
Bruce B. Reynolds, Independent/Legacy Systems Consultant: Trailing Edge
Technologies, Glenside PA---Sweeping Up Behind Data Processing Dinosaurs
M. Slater
>--
>Bruce B. Reynolds,
Bitte, wegend der FAHRT, nich mit dem Fahrer sprechen.
Mark
Andre Edouard
Watch your language, don't dishonor your sommelier's escutcheon.
Fahrt...indeed.
Andre
M. Slater
>Fahrt...indeed.
>Andre
>
Petomaine? Moi? Jamais!
Mark
Anna Mosler
I think you did not get the meaning of "neidliches Schwert" !!!
Siegfried has a very very very good sword. The other men have not so good
swords. Siegfrieds sword is the best one.
The other men envy him the sword.
All this is the meaning of: Siegfried has a neidliches sword.
Neidlich: the envy is not an attribute of the sword. It is an attribute of
the other men.
Anna
with native language: German
"David Moore" <dsm...@odds.stat.purdue.edu> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:96er70$3q...@odds.stat.purdue.edu...
> Neid is a standard German noun meaning jealous or envious.
Yes
> The usual adjective form is neidisch.
Yes
> This means I assume that neidlich is a
> Wagnerian variation, perhaps chosen for euphony.
NO NO NO
glen black
--
Glen's Multifarious Page
