The dumbing down of the ancient city of Leiden (Angry!)
ffolliott
EM wrote in message ...
>
>But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by
the
>majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring
and
>difficult" classical music?
>
>How is this situation elsewhere?
>
Sadly, your perceptions are absolutely accurate. This began
happening about fifty years ago here in the United States, with
the lamentable results today penetrating to every corner of our
society. I urge you to fight against the erosion of historic
standards in your own country.
can...@webtv.net
eliminated it's "Sunday Night at the Opera" program and plays only
instrumental music with the occasional aria thrown in (except for the
Saturday Met broadcasts). It is particularly frustrating because they
used to play new opera recordings, and it was possible to preview them
before making an increasingly expensive purchase at the CD store. And
there is virtually no opera, ballet or theater available on Cable TV
anymore. Perhaps the internet will be the answer - we shall see.......
Harpsichordist
>majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
>difficult" classical music?
>How is this situation elsewhere?
>
live (Washington, DC) play an endless parade of Top 40 classical selections
(how many times in your life do you really want to hear Brahms Academic
Festival Overture again?). Fortunately , if you have a RealPlayer, radio
stations all over the country are available on the net. WQXR in New York still
tries to offer varied programming, with a minimum of obtrusive commercial
interruption.
You might also try this URL for classical stations:
http:/dialspace.dial.pipex.com/mike.dean/ra11.htm
markie
"Musica Pellit Curas"
Piotr Michalowski
network called National Public Radio, which seemed to make up for the
losses to the pop biz everywhere else. In the last few years there
has been a drastic deterioration of quality if NPR, with the pop
worls intruding into news programs, development of mediocre interview
shows and cutting of arts programing. The same is slowly happening
to BBC.
The big media corporations are now multimedia, and they have
convinced adults not to grow up. My fear is that when they cart me
off to the old folks home, I will be forced by othre geriatrics to
listen to horrid pop music from the sixties...
Piotr
EM wrote:
>
> In Leiden, The Netherlands, we had, until recently, the possibility to
> hear foreign arts and classical radio stations on cable radio. The
> decision as to what stations are allowed on the cable, which has a
> limited capacity, has been delegated to a so called program council.
> This council consists of representatives of the population. These
> peoples' representatives decided in their infinite wisdom that there
> was too much classical music, which to them includes André Rieu or
> endless repeats of a Strauss waltz on a synthesizer, on the radio so
> they took the German public station WDR 3 (arts, classical music,
> intellectual stuff) and the British BBC 3 (mainly classical music) off
> the cable and replace these with a pop/rock and c&w (!) station
> respectively. This is taking place in an ancient university town with
> a long intellectual tradition and with cultural pretensions, but also
> in a country were a number of leading politicians mention pop music as
> their favourite music. Our rather mediocre, to put it mildly, minister
> of economic affairs even has posters of the Rolling Stones in her
> office and the chairwoman of our parliament got mentally stuck in 1970
> and is still a fan of whoever was in the charts then. It was not
> always like this but increasingly even well-educated (?) people admit
> to enjoying simple popular entertainment. This whole process of
> dumbing down and vulgarization of society makes me angry and sad at
> the same time.
>
> So now, as a result of the dumbing down and vulgarization, we have
> have been robbed of two good public radio stations with a high to very
> high classical music content in their programs. What next, one wonders
> and fears.
>
> But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by the
> majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
> difficult" classical music?
>
> How is this situation elsewhere?
>
> Eltjo Meijer
Richard Weaver
its classical music stations several years ago (well, there is one
station that, between long runs of hill-billy commercials plays
excerpts of classical music).
And San Francisco was thought to be a cultural all-encompassing town,
from female impersonators to opera. Which reminds me, the
impersonators place just shut down too.
Welcome to the middle - medial - mediocre!
dick w
Alain
them. Here in Canada, where there are essentially no arts on TV, the
European chain Arte was apparently denied a licence because it was
considered "elitist". So I looked at their typical schedule in Repertoire
and the first program I came upon was the WInnipeg ballet. You won't ever
catch them on Canadian TV. They also seemed to have a very wide range of
cultural programming, from every continent, with many different musical
styles, so that it was hard to see where the charge of elitism came from.
Bashing the arts just seems to work nowadays.
Alain (who wouldn't have watched Arte anyway)
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
Piotr Michalowski wrote:
>
<snip>
> The big media corporations are now multimedia, and they have
> convinced adults not to grow up. My fear is that when they cart me
> off to the old folks home, I will be forced by othre geriatrics to
> listen to horrid pop music from the sixties...
> Piotr
Well, I hope I manage to drop dead BEFORE I'm forced to face
the prospect - the ineptly harmonium- accompanied hymn-sings
that took place outside my Mom's nursing-home door were bad
enough! But what can you expect of a culture whose auto
bumper stickers display such sentiments as "I may grow old,
but I'll never grow up"???
Evelyn
Matt Friedman
>
> But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by the
> majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
> difficult" classical music?
Sad to say, it's happening everywhere.
Strangely enough, however, a new classical music station started up in
Montreal [Quebec, Canada] last year. CJPX has actually been pretty
successful in terms of ratings. The station mainly plays "old
chestnuts," light classical and baroque music, but it's not too bad. Of
course, when you consider that all we have for classical music in
Montreal is CBC Radio 2, Radio Canada FM and Vermont Public Radio, we're
not too bad off.
The main problem is that Radio 2 plays FAR less music than it used to.
The new slogan for Radio 2 is "classics and beyond," which means "far
less classical music than we used to play." Although there's still
Saturday Afternoon at the Opera, and a few rather good weekend classical
music shows, the network has really cut back on its weekday classical
music content. A good example is Disc Drive a 3-hour showcase for CBC
"personality" Jurgen Goethe's rather dull cleverness usually featuring a
dribble of light classical music with a whole lot of commentary and
musical selections that showcase Goethe's rather pedestrian "eclectic
tastes." The Rameau-on-synthesiser theme music sums it up, I believe.
Radio Canada [the French-language network] is pretty much the same, but
it does program more adventurous music. Vermont Public Radio is part of
the US Nationa Public radio Network and features a mix of public affairs
and culture. The problem is that reception is pretty dodgy in some parts
of Montreal.
I would dearly love to see someone set-up a 24-hour classical music
station here -- like CJPX, but with more adventurous programming -- but
I won't hold my breat. Classical music on the radio is declining. I can
imagine a time when it will have completely disappeared.
MF
Harpsichordist
AAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
markie
"Musica Pellit Curas"
Skippy's Mommy
"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" wrote:
<But what can you expect of a culture whose auto
bumper stickers display such sentiments as "I may grow old,
but I'll never grow up"???>
My Little Wally has one of those bumper stickers on his tricycle. He is SO
cute zipping about in Manhattan traffic, wearing a Beverly S thong slung
around his neck, and playing Charlotte Church records on his little
Fisher-Price CD player.
jan winter
wrote:
>
>
>EM wrote in message ...
>>
>>But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by
>the
>>majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring
>and
>>difficult" classical music?
>>
>>How is this situation elsewhere?
>>
>Sadly, your perceptions are absolutely accurate. This began
>happening about fifty years ago here in the United States
So finally the proof beyond reasonable doubt: Heinrich Heine was
right! In Holland indeed everything happens fifty years later.
--
regards,
jan winter, amsterdam
(j.wi...@xs4all.nl)
music is the healing force of the universe
(Albert Ayler)
jan winter
wrote:
>On Wed, 02 Feb 2000 00:01:46 -0800, Piotr Michalowski
><pio...@umich.edu> wrote:
>
>>(...)
>>The big media corporations are now multimedia, and they have
>>convinced adults not to grow up. My fear is that when they cart me
>>off to the old folks home, I will be forced by othre geriatrics to
>>listen to horrid pop music from the sixties...
>
>And play bingo, no doubt?
>
>Thanks anyway for cheering me up by painting this possible future
>nightmare. I had to drink a bottle of Italian red before I could cope
>with the dumbed down world again.
>
>Eltjo M.
I'm afraid just one bottle of Italian red isn't enough. When I'm old
I'll buy a hutje op de hei with no adress, but equiped with a piano, a
discman and enough drink and other stuff to die in bliss.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Someone wrote :
> >>>
> >>>Here in NYC we have plenty of pop, much less porn under the
> Giuliani
> >>>administration, and hardly any soccer.
> >>>
> EM - Please, if you are still there, is it the LIBERAL party or
> the conservatives who are engineering the deterioration which you
> observe?
the Liberal and Conservative parties in NYS are virtually
indistinguishable these days.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Peter T. Daniels
>
> EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote:
>
> >
> >But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by the
> >majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
> >difficult" classical music?
> >
> >How is this situation elsewhere?
>
> administration, and hardly any soccer.
>
Plenty of soccer (they just don't get paid for playing it) -- but lots
of boring and difficult classical music, as well as plenty of the other
kind as well.
No Name
><snip sad events in Leiden>
>So now, as a result of the dumbing down and vulgarization, we have
>have been robbed of two good public radio stations with a high to very
>high classical music content in their programs. What next, one wonders
>and fears.
>
>majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
>difficult" classical music?
>
Here I jump! I think it is clear by now that democracy is the best way
of goverment although it is clear majorities can be wrong, but that is
a lesser evil compared to be told what is good for us to listen ( soviet
realism anyone?).
I don't mind to belong to a minority that loves classical music and I
refuse to be judgamental about the taste of other people because I hate
when somebody is judgamental about my own tastes ( how many of the
writers in this heroic ng have not been labaled "elitists" for their
passion for Mozart, Rossini, Verdi or Strauss?).
In this particular case the majority has decided they don't want classical
music, then so be it. We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones but that they are different and
that for many people out there "Satisfaction" is more relevant to their
lives than "Aida".
I prefer Aida any day, but I respect who likes anything else, and if a given
service is paid with public money the majority of the public has to be served,
this is much worse if it is a company trying to make a profit, because
the paying clients are the ones that mold these decissions.
If classical music will become an obscure pleasure of a few so be it, I believe
that eventually people will rediscover the value of classical music and that
eventually a lot of "pop" music will be considered classical because it
undoubtly has artistic value.
>How is this situation elsewhere?
That is the strange thing, for what I see in London, the classical music
scene is vibrant and full of life, but somehow it looks like people
don't buy music (CDs and the like). So if I were an exraterrestrial
monster just arrived to London, I would say that classical music
is very well and then I would eat two or three opera singers.
TV in the other hand is pathetic, the space between any performance
broadcasted on TV and the next can be measured in weeks, even months,
and the only regular access to classical music is via pay cable channels
(the one I get broadcasts from 0:00 to 6:00 ,,,). Radio is slightly
better, but not much in my opinion for a city like London: only 2
stations programming classical music. This is a disapointment for me
personaly because in my home town (Mexico City) we have 4 radio stations
that broadcast classical music, one of them as its only offering and
we have 2 TV (free open) channels that broadcast a little bit of
classical music (more than the BBC!) including opera with Spanish
subtitles.
In Southeast Asia they are trying to put orchestras but their broadcasting
offerings are close to nil (and why should they after all, it is not their
music in reality, but then why those concert halls and orchestras?).
>
>Eltjo Meijer
Good luck, I hope the situation does not get worse, but I doubt it.
Harry K. Thaw
No Name wrote:
> We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
>that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones, but that they are
different [ ... ]
BALONEY!! That IS the mistake: High culture IS better than the
pop 'culture'. When you say they are merely 'different', that
CONSTITUTES the dumbing-down. Some people have more refined taste
than other people - they should not apologize for that.
I feel that much of this harmful process of continually seeking
the lowest common denominator results from empty phrases of bad
18th-century philosophy (like 'all men are created equal'). The
fact is there are smarter people and less-smart people. There are
many more stupid people than smart ones, and when everyone's
opinion counts equally, you obtain the bad results which we
presently observe.
Bogdan Tudose
> On Wed, 02 Feb 2000 05:13:12 +0100, EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote:
> ><snip sad events in Leiden>
> >So now, as a result of the dumbing down and vulgarization, we have
> >have been robbed of two good public radio stations with a high to very
> >high classical music content in their programs. What next, one wonders
> >and fears.
> >
> >But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by the
> >majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
> >difficult" classical music?
> >
>
> Here I jump! I think it is clear by now that democracy is the best way
> of goverment although it is clear majorities can be wrong, but that is
> a lesser evil compared to be told what is good for us to listen ( soviet
> realism anyone?).
>
> I don't mind to belong to a minority that loves classical music and I
> refuse to be judgamental about the taste of other people because I hate
> when somebody is judgamental about my own tastes ( how many of the
> writers in this heroic ng have not been labaled "elitists" for their
> passion for Mozart, Rossini, Verdi or Strauss?).
Is that bad? Which is worse : being "elitist" or "populist"?
>
>
> In this particular case the majority has decided they don't want classical
> music, then so be it. We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
> that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones but that they are different and
> that for many people out there "Satisfaction" is more relevant to their
> lives than "Aida".
> I prefer Aida any day, but I respect who likes anything else, and if a given
> service is paid with public money the majority of the public has to be served,
> this is much worse if it is a company trying to make a profit, because
> the paying clients are the ones that mold these decissions.
So you're saying because wrestling is more popular than claassical music,
replacing
all publicly funded classical broadcasts with wrestling would be the pinnacle of
democracy?
Oh yes, and Mozart IS better than the Rolling Stones.
>
>
> If classical music will become an obscure pleasure of a few so be it, I believe
> that eventually people will rediscover the value of classical music and that
> eventually a lot of "pop" music will be considered classical because it
> undoubtly has artistic value.
I don't deny some of it has value, but this has
nothing to do with the pop "culture". But you ignore the fact that musical (among
other) tastes
are shaped, in part at least, by a few companies who couldn' t care less about
anything else
than making as much money as possible.
Bogdan
Michael Subotin
We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
> that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones but that they are different and
> that for many people out there "Satisfaction" is more relevant to their
> lives than "Aida".
--
mvsst3+@pitt{DOT}edu Replace {DOT} with a dot
Edward A. Cowan
> The whole process of vulgarization and dumbing down is, however,
> caused, stimulated and continued by large corporations, also owning
> mass media, who want nations full of simple-minded brain-dead
> consumption slaves mainly (or only) interested in pulp, pop, porn,
> sports and trendy expensive things, ideally in the same things all
> over the globe. Most politicians have a tendency to want what the
> perceived majority want in order to get elected so...
The Roman satirist Juvenal summed it up in the words "panem et
circenses" ("bread and circuses"), which in modern terms would be "fast
food and spectator sports" -- just what the dumbed-down masses want and,
in fact, need. An example: Here in the Dallas-Ft. Worth "Metroplex" last
week, the firing of a local football coach was deemed by the media --
all the major network stations and, I think, at least one independent
station -- so important as to preempt the 5:30pm CST network national
newscasts. And a couple of days later, the live coverage of the hiring
of a replacement coach was also deemed so important as to *interrupt*
the network newscasts during their reports on the upcoming New Hampshire
primaries. We get what we want whether we want to get it or not. <g>
-- E.A.C.
Johan van Veen
EM wrote:
> In Leiden, The Netherlands, we had, until recently, the possibility to
> hear foreign arts and classical radio stations on cable radio. The
> decision as to what stations are allowed on the cable, which has a
> limited capacity, has been delegated to a so called program council.
> This council consists of representatives of the population. These
> peoples' representatives decided in their infinite wisdom that there
> was too much classical music, which to them includes André Rieu or
> endless repeats of a Strauss waltz on a synthesizer, on the radio so
> they took the German public station WDR 3 (arts, classical music,
> intellectual stuff) and the British BBC 3 (mainly classical music) off
> the cable and replace these with a pop/rock and c&w (!) station
> respectively.
The criticism regarding people who obviously know nothing about about and
care even less about classical music is justified. Why should classical
music be elitist? Everything which some people know more about than others
- be it classical or rock music, or even football (AE: soccer) - is
elitist. So what? What gives people the right to decide what others should
hear?
But we should also be fair. The radio and tv stations play their role in
the whole process. Both BBC 3 and WDR 3 have in a way 'popularized' their
programmes in an attempt to be less 'elitist' and attract more listeners.
I have never believed that this is going to work. But by popularizing they
contribute to the trivialization of their programmes. It is the same
tendency you see everywhere. In an attempt to compete with commercial
radio and tv the public channels start to be like these. In doing so they
are in danger of losing their right of existence.
It is also the directors of public radio and tv who play their part in it.
Last week their was a report in a Belgian newspaper that the directors of
Belgian radio were considering fundamentally changing the classical
channel, or even to abolish it altogether. It will be interesting to see
what happens there.
--
Johan van Veen
Utrecht (Netherlands)
jvv...@casema.net
ubi deus ibi pax
jj
a mess, particularly in la belle province, that money spent *anywhere*
else would cause a backlash. I also understood it was a French-language
channel; another hot-button issue, funding or not.
BTW, the Winnipeg Ballet has been on Bravo.
jj
more weasely & undignified.
Marc Perman wrote:
>
> Raymond Hall <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> >Marc Perman wrote:
> >>
> >> EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by the
> >> >majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
> >> >difficult" classical music?
> >> >
> >> >How is this situation elsewhere?
> >>
> >> Here in NYC we have plenty of pop, much less porn under the Giuliani
> >> administration, and hardly any soccer.
> >>
> >Three reasons to be thankful Giuliani is running for Senate against
> >Hillary. Things might change under a different mayor. You seem to have a
> >lot of baseball though, so NY can't be all bad.
>
> True, although Giuliani's frequent appearances at ballgames dressed in
> a NY Yankees uniform (Ok, he wears the cap and team jacket) struck me
> as rather undignified.
>
> Marc Perman
Andy Evans
( soviet realism anyone?).>>
faults of capitalism. We have lived for far too long with the illusion that
the licenced greed trumpeted by the forces of free enterprise is 'good for
us'. Such greed, apart from incidental flaws like destroying the planet
through rampant consumerism (not something we should entirely ignore
although most politicians seem happy to), is leading to the setting up of
global trading institutions with 'rules' that are coming uncomfortably close
to the sort of protectionism that typified the Soviet Union. Remember
Seattle a few months ago? When it comes to the arts, they traditionally did
well under 'protectionist' regimes like the Soviet Union which, surprise
surprise, protected them educationally and financially. It's now that the
famous ballet dancers and circus artists of the Soviet Union are taking to
the streets. I'm not saying I buy communism. I'm saying I just don't buy
capitalism either, and I'm getting very allergic to its perrenial and
incessant spin in my middle age.
>
> I don't mind to belong to a minority that loves classical music and I
> refuse to be judgamental about the taste of other people because I hate
> when somebody is judgamental about my own tastes ( how many of the
> writers in this heroic ng have not been labaled "elitists" for their
> passion for Mozart, Rossini, Verdi or Strauss?).
>
> In this particular case the majority has decided they don't want classical
> music, then so be it. We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
> that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones but that they are different
and
> that for many people out there "Satisfaction" is more relevant to their
> lives than "Aida".
> I prefer Aida any day, but I respect who likes anything else, and if a
given
> service is paid with public money the majority of the public has to be
served,
> this is much worse if it is a company trying to make a profit, because
> the paying clients are the ones that mold these decissions.
>
> If classical music will become an obscure pleasure of a few so be it, I
believe
> that eventually people will rediscover the value of classical music and
that
> eventually a lot of "pop" music will be considered classical because it
> undoubtly has artistic value.
>
> >How is this situation elsewhere?
>
No Name
>
>
>No Name wrote:
>> We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
>different [ ... ]
>
>BALONEY!! That IS the mistake: High culture IS better than the
>pop 'culture'.
How it is better? Why is better my excitment and sometimes even tears
when listening to Aida than the paroxism that invades somebody
listening to Mick Jagger? Why my happines and pleasure is better than
that of others?
"High culture" as you call it is just one way in which humans manifest
their artistic needs and I don't see a single objective reason to say
that one kind of manifestation is superior to others.
> When you say they are merely 'different', that
>CONSTITUTES the dumbing-down.
Why "dumbing down"? I know brilliant and cultivated people that love
pop music but can't stomach classical music, I also have friends that
can't live without Beethoven, Wagner or Stravinsky but have not read
any book bar the latest best seller. So who is dumber?
Why "classical music" is superior? It is just different, technically,
conceptually, I even conceed that even spiritually. If the greatest
aspiration of somebody is to have "drugs, sex and rock" I am nobody
to impose my values to that person, and since I believe in democracy
I accept that the majority could choose something different to what I
like. I just don't watch/read/listen to it.
> Some people have more refined taste
>than other people - they should not apologize for that.
How do define "refined"? And nobody is asking for apologies, but respect.
And in the moment I say "my passion is better and superior than yours"
I am showing very little refinment.
>
>I feel that much of this harmful process of continually seeking
>the lowest common denominator results from empty phrases of bad
>18th-century philosophy (like 'all men are created equal').
That is incorrect of course (genetic Engineering can probe that in
10 minutes), but what about if you say:
"All human beens are equal in front of the law". That was also said, and
I don't think it is bad philosophy. So if we have to vote between
stop classical music broadcasts and pop music proadcasts we would
have to live with the sad reality that we are in the side of the loosing
minority, but I would never dare to impose my views to others.
> The
>fact is there are smarter people and less-smart people.
To listen to classical music does not make anybody smarter or dumber.
To love classical music does not improve your IQ or your views
(otherwise all classical music composers would have been models
of good, compasionate, exemplar behaviour).
Classical music is just one of many forms Music uses to please us,
and we are part of the lucky minority that have such a beautiful
lover.
> There are
>many more stupid people than smart ones, and when everyone's
>opinion counts equally, you obtain the bad results which we
>presently observe.
>
>
And what is your proposition? To be ruled by a bunch of unelected
notables that will tell us what is good for us? Would you like
soviet USSR or McCarthy's USA?
Democracy is far from perfect, but it is the lesser evil because
the rights of each individual are respected (I know, I know, at least
in theory).
They can stop
classical music broadcasts, but I can always go and buy a CD, go to
a concert buy a video and if the situation is do bad, I can whistle.
The day any of these activities becomes illegal you and I have an
appointment to bring down the tyranny.
Enough said, Shostakovich awaits in my CD player.
PK
>
> but that is a lesser evil compared to be told what is good for us to listen
> ( soviet realism anyone?).>>
> I wouldn't write off communism unless you are fully acquainted with the many
> faults of capitalism. We have lived for far too long with the illusion that
> the licenced greed trumpeted by the forces of free enterprise is 'good for
> us'. Such greed, apart from incidental flaws like destroying the planet
> through rampant consumerism (not something we should entirely ignore
> although most politicians seem happy to), is leading to the setting up of
> global trading institutions with 'rules' that are coming uncomfortably close
> to the sort of protectionism that typified the Soviet Union. Remember
> Seattle a few months ago? When it comes to the arts, they traditionally did
> well under 'protectionist' regimes like the Soviet Union which, surprise
> surprise, protected them educationally and financially. It's now that the
> famous ballet dancers and circus artists of the Soviet Union are taking to
> the streets. I'm not saying I buy communism. I'm saying I just don't buy
> capitalism either, and I'm getting very allergic to its perrenial and
> incessant spin in my middle age.
I'm sorry, I know this is way out of the line of rmcr, but I
simply cannot let these things go unanswered.
Chronologically :
The "destroying of the planet" aspect is far worse in the
Soviet Union, plus all of the countries formerly occupied
(you should have seen the state in which the Soviets have
left their vast, military bases in these countries), simply
because the very idea of social control was banned. Have you
ever heard of the Nikitin trial? Do a search. Even now, it's
considered a betrayal to declare obvious and public things,
and you can be tried for it.
The global trading institutions with rules seem to me a
little better than no global trading institutions and no
rules altogether. This is a new straw man.
As for the arts, read, for instance, Ashkenazy's book about
it ("Beyond frontiers", Hamish Hamilton 1984). First and
foremost, the arts were "protected" and "supported" as
"shopping windows" for the system (which was literally sick
of competitive obsession in its relationship with the West).
Some arts were especially protected (music, ballet etc)
because they had no political content. Others were tolerated
rather than not, mostly for propaganda reasons. Otherwise,
generally speaking, the choice is between being
"over-protected" (censorship included) and "out in the
open".
The collapse of the state protection (in absolutely all
domains) is not due to the new system, but to what was left
of the old system. Nothing. It was a system that did not
produce goods, and therefore was not earning money to pay
for the state protection. The support of the arts (juste
like everything else) would have collapsed anyway, rather
sooner than later. If the Bolshoi, to quote one example, is
in the shape it is, it's because there is no money to pay
for it anymore, since an economy is to be reconstructed
where there was no economy to speak of. The Russians aren't
making a very good job of it, and it's a different problem,
but in the countries who work better, the situation of
state-supported arts is also better. Fiction has been
replaced with reality, and reality hurts.
And, as the last objection : the opposition between
"communism" and "capitalism" is a traditional, communist
propaganda trick. "Capitalism" is an economic notion,
"communism" is a political notion, both exclusively. Using
this opposition suggests that there is such a thing as a
communist economy (there isn't), and that capitalism is a
political system (it isn't). It creates an illusion of
"alternative" where there isn't any.
PK
David Grayshan
Unconstrained Communism = Unconstrained Capitalism = Totalitarianism (it hardly
matters who is running the show, does it?).
There is no virtue in any kind of extremism or fundamentalism, it is all tyranny.
There is plenty of tyranny to be found in the US today, just as there was in the
USSR and still is in Russia..... and as for US tyranny outside the USA, don't get
me started on that..... remember Sturgeon's Law? It is as valid today as when its
progenitor worded it.
Regards,
David.
Karen Mercedes
of these operas? I'm very curious about some of these "Glorifying the
Proletariat and the Indomitable Soviet Spirit" type operas by Khrennikov
(e.g., Matia), Inatschek (e.g., E Padtscheritsa - The Stepdaughter),
Khalminov (e.g, Optimistitscheskai Tragedii - Optimistic Tragedy),
Kreitnera (e.g., Tania), etc. Are these works all too propogandistic to
have any real artistic value? Or could it be possible that we'll start
seeing some of them turning up again in, say, 25 years as Nostalgia
pieces?
Karen Mercedes
=====
There is delight in singing,
tho' none hear Beside the singer.
- Walter Savage Landor
-----
MY WEB PAGE: http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
MY NEIL SHICOFF PAGE: http://www.radix.net/~dalila/shicoff/shicoff.html
dtritter
of a collection of mental delinquents, who managed not only to fail
music appreciation, but history and civics as well. from what i've read
so far on this thread, it's quite apparent that wilde's observation that
education has had no effect whatever [fill in the blanks as to locus of
that vain effort] was eminently correct.
if one must reveal one's ignorance on the social construct of various
nations, there must be more appropriate newsgroups. at least i haven't
read here [recently] of the virtues of joe mccarthy and j edgar
crossdresser. or did i speak too soon?
dft
Andy Evans
> of a collection of mental delinquents, who managed not only to fail
> music appreciation, but history and civics as well.>>
the Royal Academy of Music and part of an Oxford history degree. Where you
do degrees in 'civics' I have no knowledge of, but if it's the USA I'd like
to know how much of the history of communism is in the syllabus.
> if one must reveal one's ignorance on the social construct of various
> nations, there must be more appropriate newsgroups>>
standards, blah blah.
Why do many people in what was the Soviet Union seek to restore communism?
Are they ignorant cretins? The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a
standard of education which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
samir ghiocel golescu
On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Andy Evans wrote:
> but that is a lesser evil compared to be told what is good for us to listen
> ( soviet realism anyone?).>>
> I wouldn't write off communism unless you are fully acquainted with the many
> faults of capitalism. We have lived for far too long with the illusion that
> the licenced greed trumpeted by the forces of free enterprise is 'good for
> us'. Such greed, apart from incidental flaws like destroying the planet
> through rampant consumerism (not something we should entirely ignore
> although most politicians seem happy to), is leading to the setting up of
> global trading institutions with 'rules' that are coming uncomfortably close
> to the sort of protectionism that typified the Soviet Union. Remember
> Seattle a few months ago? When it comes to the arts, they traditionally did
> well under 'protectionist' regimes like the Soviet Union which, surprise
> surprise, protected them educationally and financially. It's now that the
> famous ballet dancers and circus artists of the Soviet Union are taking to
> the streets. I'm not saying I buy communism. I'm saying I just don't buy
> capitalism either, and I'm getting very allergic to its perrenial and
> incessant spin in my middle age.
As a man who experienced both societies, I have to repeat the truism that
capitalism sucks, but Communism (totalitarianism in general) sucks
infinitely more. There is simply no comparison between the two, even if,
for some individuals, the transition from one to another is difficult to
tragic. The famous ballet dancers are taking to the streets in the former
Soviet Union not because Russia became a capitalist country, but because,
right now, it is not horse, not pig, I'm afraid.
regards,
SG
Matthew B. Tepper
>
> The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a standard of education
> which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
Many US high schools ARE burger bars.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Harry K. Thaw
EM wrote
>I think I need that bottle of Italian red vino now.
>
You mean 'European Community' blended red alcoholic beverage.
Andy Evans
It's pretty evident that the mood on this newsgroup is that we are between a
rock and a hard place when it comes to the two. I can't claim to have lived
under a communist regime, and I bow humbly to the opinions of those who
have. I studied Russian in school and university for a few years, visited
many Eastern blok countries, grew to respect Slav culture very greatly (I
have no allegience as such to 'communism', except that many of the Eastern
blok countries adopted it or had it forced on them), together with its
traditions and intelligence, and finally married a Serb, so my son is half
Serbian. I then had to live through ten years of the illegal and immoral
NATO strategic manipulation of the Balkans, culminating in the bombing of my
wife's country and the resultant killing of some of her friends and
relatives. Finally, after my marriage had broken up during this period (my
country was, after all, at war with hers) I had to suffer the ultimate
indignity of this totally cynical NATO bombardment being referred to as 'The
First Humanitarian War in History'. Needless to say, I am deeply sceptical
of the whole way the Western alliances are going. It goes without saying
that my experiences are nowhere near the sufferings of many Americans who
had to go through Viet Nam.
>The famous ballet dancers are taking to the streets in the former Soviet
Union not because Russia became a capitalist country, but because,
right now, it is not horse, not pig, I'm afraid.>>
I'm sure that's true.
Harry K. Thaw
Andy Evans wrote in message ...
> ... capitalism sucks, but Communism sucks infinitely more.
>
Who came up with the 'capitalism vs. soviet realism' thread? For
the last eight years in the U.S. we have been under the most
left-leaning, socialist, ANTI-capitalist regime this country
has ever suffered. Between politically-correct 'goodthink' and
the government harassing the manufacturers of legal products, we
are as close to Communism as I ever want to get. That's why
WHOEVER is ultimately the Republican candidate must be supported,
rather than let Gore continue dismantling America.
dtritter
>
[snip, snip, snip, but never enough...]
> we> are as close to Communism as I ever want to get. That's why
> WHOEVER is ultimately the Republican candidate must be supported,
> rather than let Gore continue dismantling America.
mr. thaw, evelyn nesbitt was a snare and a delusion too. it's quite
repulsive that you continue the pathology of this mental patient scores
of years after his demise...i do not support gore, but for rational
reasons, not this noxious unreason...
dft
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Stan White
dtritter wrote
>...i do not support gore, but for rational
>reasons,
>
You are right! Clinton and Gore have moved this country far
toward the socialist ideal.
Jim Curtis
dtritter <dtri...@bway.net> wrote in message
news:389B13C7...@bway.net...
f joe mccarthy and j edgar
> crossdresser. or did i speak too soon?
I'm thinking of composing an opera celebrating the life of the bravest, most
patriotic and greatest U.S. politician of this century....Joe McCarthy. I
might write Hoover into the script for comedy relief...although he was a
great commie hater also and I'm still not certain that the whole
crossdressing thing isn't an invention of the lefty media. I have this scene
imagined where he is in the forest and all of the creatures of the forest
floor gather around and he sings them something purty.
Jim Curtis
Andy Evans <arts.ps...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:zvFm4.11494$M47.125588@news1-hme0...
The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a
> standard of education which made many US high-schools look like burger
bars.
And now those students wish they could get a job flipping burgers.
>
>
samir ghiocel golescu
On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Andy Evans wrote:
> > As a man who experienced both societies, I have to repeat the truism that
> capitalism sucks, but Communism --totalitarianism in general--sucks
infinitely more. >>
> It's pretty evident that the mood on this newsgroup is that we are between a
> rock and a hard place when it comes to the two. I can't claim to have lived
> under a communist regime, and I bow humbly to the opinions of those who
> have. I studied Russian in school and university for a few years, visited
> many Eastern blok countries, grew to respect Slav culture very greatly
Thank you for your civil reply. You don't have to bow to "our"
opinions... many of us, Eastern Europeans, as you said, regret Communism
and this is very sad for me. It is not ignorance or cretinism *only*, it
is something much worse, a deterioration of the simple humanly healthy
instincts... imagine a Germany where Nazis governed for 70 years and
people were induced to believe that everything is happening is normal,
good and desirable... I am not a politician, neither a specialist in
history, but I have to say, by first-hand experience, that it was
nothing, NOTHING at all good about Communism, as it was NOTHING good about
Nazism. That people were enjoying art in Communism, that a Furtwangler was
conducting in the Nazi Germany, these were things that were happening
despite the essence of the regimes themselves... because no Earthly power
of darkness is perfect...
I do respect the Slav culture and I deplore that some of my compatriots,
for political reasons, despise everything Russian. Another truism:
Tchaikovsky was as little a Communist as Beethoven was a Nazi...
Regarding the Serb tragedy, I share your compassion for the fate of
individual Serb people that suffered because of "Milo"'s paranoia, but I
do not blame, at least I do not blame *primarily*, the Western powers for
what happened. Clinton, Major & Co. made major, some of them tragic,
errors, but the root of the whole tragedy can be found within the Serb
regime itself, IMUninformedO.
regards,
SG
revenant
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Jim Curtis
Harry K. Thaw <th...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:87fmnc$d6a4$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
. That's why
> WHOEVER is ultimately the Republican candidate must be supported,
> rather than let Gore continue dismantling America.
Perhaps, but McCain has let slip some collectivist jargon that would
probably make Ted Kennedy blush. No wonder the media is so in love with him.
>
>
BubbaMike
Indeed! Anyone to the left of Mark Hanna should be deported to Communist
Germany! We must beware the Red Korean Troops now stationed in Canada
preparing to invade us, rape our woman and childern and force Communism
upon us! Watch out for the black helicopter and arm yourself before it is
to late. Remember avoid all foreign music it is a plot to polute the vital
bodily fluids that make the American Male so manly. The polution of these
fluids is part of the commie plot lead by Clinton and the Ultra-liberal
Carpetbager Bush of Texas.
Watch Red Dawn and find out the truth!
Bubba
--
"The perfect computer has been developed. You just feed in your problems
and they never come out again." -- Al Goodman
Edward A. Cowan
> I guess we can't hope that the sacking and hiring of the old and new
> conductor (respectively) op the Dallas Symphony Orch. would draw the
> same media attention?
I'm afraid not...
-- E.A.C.
Grant Menzies
PK is correct -- arts support used as "shopping windows" by the Soviet
government, and consequent financial disarray we see today, hits the
nail on the head. It's true that now that Communism has received its
deserved stake through the heart (always subject to being revived by
the vampire lovers among us, please note), many organizations that
used to receive lots of funding are not receiving it any longer.
There are museums where funding has all but dried up -- the people who
work there do so for the love of it, or they wouldn't bother simply
for self-preservative reasons. The country simply wore its economy
and its people out trying to prove itself to the West and maintaining
its demogogical fantasies in the approved politically correct fashion.
But the problem with Russia has *always* been the spongers that
surround anyone in power, from the Muscovite dynasty down to Nicholas
II and the quasi-Tsar, Stalin. Yeltsin was certainly wise to
predicate his resignation on immunity from future attemps at
prosecution. The thuggery continues in form of a systemic mafia.
Money for the arts won't be forthcoming while there are Russian robber
barons. And what always has been in Russia will probably always be.
As a scholar of the post-1917 emigration and the fates of both émigrés
and the relatives they left behind, I could add plenty of data re: how
lovely it was to live in or deal with the Soviet Utopia which so
impressed GB Shaw and blinkered liberals of his ilk, but this is
already off topic.
Grant
Grant Menzies
>> it's really quite wonderful to read the posts here, as if anyone cares,
>> of a collection of mental delinquents, who managed not only to fail
>> music appreciation, but history and civics as well.>>
>In random order you have been following the threads of a music degree from
>the Royal Academy of Music and part of an Oxford history degree. Where you
>do degrees in 'civics' I have no knowledge of, but if it's the USA I'd like
>to know how much of the history of communism is in the syllabus.
>> if one must reveal one's ignorance on the social construct of various
>> nations, there must be more appropriate newsgroups>>
>All Hail, O wise one, bearer of the truth, sole arbitor of educational
>standards, blah blah.
>Why do many people in what was the Soviet Union seek to restore communism?
>Are they ignorant cretins? The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a
>standard of education which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
They had lots of great things. Factories! Ballet companies!
Hen-pecked geniuses like Shostakovitch and Prokofiev! And what drove
all the rides of the soviet amusement park? Stalin's tyranny. He
couldn't even be called a communist leader -- we're talking despotism,
regardless of the label slapped on it by kremlin lackeys, to the
highest power. Anyone in Russia now who would welcome communism back
is ignorant *and* shiftless. As are the whiners in the former East
Germany who can't get their act together in modern society and pine
for the good old days of socialistic diaper-changing.
PK
>
> > As a man who experienced both societies, I have to repeat the truism that
> It's pretty evident that the mood on this newsgroup is that we are between a
> rock and a hard place when it comes to the two. I can't claim to have lived
> under a communist regime, and I bow humbly to the opinions of those who
> have. I studied Russian in school and university for a few years, visited
> have no allegience as such to 'communism', except that many of the Eastern
> blok countries adopted it or had it forced on them)
The is no "or". All of them had it forced on them. Without
exception.
> together with its
> traditions and intelligence, and finally married a Serb, so my son is half
> Serbian. I then had to live through ten years of the illegal and immoral
> NATO strategic manipulation of the Balkans
Any details about that, maybe? Something about Milosevic
being a NATO agent?
PK
PK
>
> > it's really quite wonderful to read the posts here, as if anyone cares,
> > of a collection of mental delinquents, who managed not only to fail
> > music appreciation, but history and civics as well.>>
> In random order you have been following the threads of a music degree from
> the Royal Academy of Music and part of an Oxford history degree. Where you
> do degrees in 'civics' I have no knowledge of, but if it's the USA I'd like
> to know how much of the history of communism is in the syllabus.
> > if one must reveal one's ignorance on the social construct of various
> > nations, there must be more appropriate newsgroups>>
> All Hail, O wise one, bearer of the truth, sole arbitor of educational
> standards, blah blah.
> Why do many people in what was the Soviet Union seek to restore communism?
> Are they ignorant cretins? The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a
> standard of education which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
I'm really sorry you didn't care to answer any of my
arguments.
PK
Brian Cantin
> Andy Evans wrote:
> >
> > The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a standard of education
> > which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
>
> Many US high schools ARE burger bars.
US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
and regimentation the students suffer.
--
Brian Cantin
An advocate of poisonous individualism.
To reply via email, replace "dcantin" with "bcantin".
Brian Cantin
<snip>
> Finally, after my marriage had broken up during this period (my
> country was, after all, at war with hers) I had to suffer the
> ultimate indignity of this totally cynical NATO bombardment being
> referred to as 'The First Humanitarian War in History'. Needless to
> say, I am deeply sceptical of the whole way the Western alliances
> are going. It goes without saying that my experiences are nowhere
> near the sufferings of many Americans who had to go through Viet
> Nam.
If you give a politician, any politician, a dollar he will use the
money to kill or enslave somebody. While he is doing the dirty
deed, he will use another of your dollars to convince you that
he did it for your benifit.
Ancona21
The tart in the red velvet swing.
Ancona21
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
only instance I can think of, off hand, of "government
harassing" manufacturers of (alas) still legal products.
"Harry K. Thaw" wrote:
>
> Andy Evans wrote in message ...
> > ... capitalism sucks, but Communism sucks infinitely more.
> >
> Who came up with the 'capitalism vs. soviet realism' thread? For
> the last eight years in the U.S. we have been under the most
> left-leaning, socialist, ANTI-capitalist regime this country
> has ever suffered. Between politically-correct 'goodthink' and
> the government harassing the manufacturers of legal products, we
> are as close to Communism as I ever want to get. That's why
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
period? (Or is that, perhaps, what you want?) "Let people
pay for whatever education they want" only works if everyone
possesses the financial means to do so. Most of us do not -
what would you suggest we pay WITH? Our school systems
(many of them) may be in a sorry state these days, and the
quality of education they provide may not always be very
high, but at least it's SOMETHING. You would prefer,
perhaps, a nation of illiterates? (But of course, you very
well might - they're easier to control when they haven't
been exposed to rational thought.) One of the greatest
prizes of our democracy is the guarantee of an education -
we may fall short of the Jeffersonian ideal of "a free
people, fully informed", but everyone capable of learning at
least has the chance to do so!
Brian Cantin wrote:
>
> US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> and regimentation the students suffer.
>
Mark D. Lew
> I'm sorry, I know this is way out of the line of rmcr, but I
> simply cannot let these things go unanswered.
>
> [...]
>
> [...] First and
> foremost, the arts were "protected" and "supported" as
> "shopping windows" for the system (which was literally sick
> of competitive obsession in its relationship with the West).
Well, as long as we're running off topic, I must point out that the arts,
while they may have been figuratively sick, were not literally sick.
mdl
Mark D. Lew
<dca...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> and regimentation the students suffer.
Public education is only socialist if you assume it exists to serve the
students and their parents, but that is a false assumption. Students are
not the beneficiary of the education system, any more than criminals are
the beneficiary of the justice system. Public education exists to serve
the public -- specifically, that public's interest in seeing that everyone
else in society is "educated".
There are good reasons to believe that education/indoctrination of others
in society is a useful service for a government to provide to its public.
There are also good reasons to believe that such education/indoctrination
is inappropriate in a free society. But neither of these is served by
pretending that education is a benefits program for citizens with children.
This is why those voucher ideas are so stupid. They simply take an
institution which still retains some semblance of a public service, and
turn it into an unmitigated entitlement.
mdl
dtritter
[i once met sterling hayden, a terrific guy]
you've identified the enemas of mrka.
but what about those lurking to detroy the brits?
poster bob sims wails about them, but in the immortal words of the late
walt kelly, "we have met the enemy and he is us."
sims exhibits a selfless disregard for his vital bodily fluids. as to
the solids, he gives them to us in profusion.
dtritter
>
> "Legal products" like cigarettes, I presume? That's the
> only instance I can think of, off hand, of "government
> harassing" manufacturers of (alas) still legal products.
i guess yiou must be talking about the harassment of subsidizing tobacco
farmers...surely albert gore jr. knows something about that.
David Grayshan
PK
Mybe my formulation was awkward and unclear, but I most
certainly meant the system to be "sick", not the arts
(though, some of it...).
PK
PK
Do I hear an interesting echo of "Another brick in the wall"
here?
PK
David Grayshan
bitterly, I am forced to agree with you, since you are clearly both stupid and
ignorant.
Twit.
David.
Brian Cantin wrote:
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <o...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Andy Evans wrote:
> > >
> > > The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a standard of education
> > > which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
> >
> > Many US high schools ARE burger bars.
>
> US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> and regimentation the students suffer.
>
David Grayshan
politician with presidential ambitions in disguise: for it is a
characteristic of this person that he cannot spell, and this gives your
secret identity away:
Brian Cantin wrote:
> (Snip) benifit.
Need I tell you how to spell it?(Snip)
David Grayshan
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque) wrote:
> Yes, but would it not also bring an end to education, period? (Or is
> that, perhaps, what you want?)
*Of course* that is what they want. A nation of illiterates, a true "Great
Unwashed*, is that much easier to control and manipulate.....
> (Snip) You would prefer, perhaps, a nation of illiterates? (But of
> course, you very
> well might - they're easier to control when they haven't been exposed to
> rational thought.) (Snip)
You say it yourself. If you want to understand what is going on you have to
look at it from the viewpoint of those who (want to) rule. They want a
bunch of financially hyperactive politically docile real-estate agents for
a population. That is what they are trying to develop and they are
succeeding admirably. If you try to look at what these people want with
some idealistic-coloured glasses on you will never understand what is going
on. Think "flat, two-dimensional, power-oriented mind" and you will get
there.....
Regards,
David.
Andy Evans
Eastern blok countries adopted it or had it forced on them)
> The is no "or". All of them had it forced on them. Without exception.>>
<< NATO strategic manipulation of the Balkans>>
> Any details about that, maybe? >>
Croatia and Serbia sat down at a table (figuratively or literally) and
discussed how to divide up the Balkans. While Croatia (old ally of Germany)
was happy to guarantee European integration and commercial rights, Serbia
was not. Commercial rights would include crucially important Oil and mineral
issues (minerals in Kossovo). The oil issue would include future oil and gas
pipelines up to Europe from the Southern NATO countries - Turkey and Greece.
If you look at the geology of the region(here, a map helps see what this is
about, and bear in mind that going up the Danube encounters large cliffs for
part of the way), such pipelines would go through Kossovo and Bosnia. NATO
got a better 'deal' from the Moslems, so they went with them and "contrived"
the whole war strategically to look as if it was all Serbia's fault (read
"The Prince" on conquering and occupying countries - it's almost word for
word what NATO did). Of course Milosovic did use power and aggression and
his own part of the army did commit atrocities - nobody is denying this. It
may help to see the Balkans as two wars - first the civil war in which
Milosovic took action within what was, of course, his own country,
Yugoslavia, and at other points attacked parts of Croatia. Remember here
that Croatia ethnically cleansed all the Serbs out of the Kraina and the
West did not bat an eyelid. The second war was the war where NATO was the
aggressor. This is the war NATO does not want us to understand too well, and
it is this war that has been covered by elaborate spin from Jamie O'Shea.
The goals for this second 'strategic' war were a land corridor for the free
passage of NATO troops (troops the correct word, not 'peacekeepers') from
N.Europe down to Greece and Turkey, commercial access to the Balkans, and
in-principle agreements for oil and gas pipelines. Serbia was placed in an
impossible situiation in this 'second' war, and constantly maintained in
interviews with Western TV stations that it was defending itself, which was
of course the case. Its crime? Partly, to be a Non-Aligned Nation. The
Non-Aligned group, as you probably know, includes China, India, Libya....
Friends of the USA? I think not. It's not easy to determine which the USA
can't stand the most - communists or non-aligned powers. In terms of trade,
Seattle showed that countries non-aligned with its trading interests were
anathema. It could be assumed that where America's trade goes, its politics
go. That's what I mean about Oil in the Balkan war. Think about
it...........
Brian Cantin
> Yes, but would it not also bring an end to education,
> period?
Who do you think pays for education now? Does it come from
free from heavens like manna?
> (Or is that, perhaps, what you want?) "Let people
> pay for whatever education they want" only works if everyone
> possesses the financial means to do so. Most of us do not -
> what would you suggest we pay WITH?
If you were not paying for state supported schools, what would
you do with the money?
> Our school systems
> (many of them) may be in a sorry state these days, and the
> quality of education they provide may not always be very
> high, but at least it's SOMETHING. You would prefer,
> perhaps, a nation of illiterates? (But of course, you very
> well might - they're easier to control when they haven't
> been exposed to rational thought.)
Let's see. You support a system where money is coerced from people to
support an educational system where control taken away from those that
are paying. There are also laws that make it compulsary for children
to attend. So, you want to accuse me of wanting to control people?
Brian Cantin
> In article <wk66w4x...@earthlink.net>, Brian Cantin
> <dca...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> > public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> > Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> > standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> > and regimentation the students suffer.
>
> Public education is only socialist if you assume it exists to serve the
> students and their parents, but that is a false assumption. Students are
> not the beneficiary of the education system, any more than criminals are
> the beneficiary of the justice system. Public education exists to serve
> the public -- specifically, that public's interest in seeing that everyone
> else in society is "educated".
>
> There are good reasons to believe that education/indoctrination of others
> in society is a useful service for a government to provide to its public.
> There are also good reasons to believe that such education/indoctrination
> is inappropriate in a free society. But neither of these is served by
> pretending that education is a benefits program for citizens with children.
>
> This is why those voucher ideas are so stupid. They simply take an
> institution which still retains some semblance of a public service, and
> turn it into an unmitigated entitlement.
>
> mdl
I am not assuming that public schools are there to benifit the
students. Quite the contary, I think you have identified the issue.
Public schools exist to indoctrinate students. Both the history of
the development of public education and ongoing direction of the
system show what the goals are. The reason that public schools do
such a poor job of what is ordinarily thought of as education is that
education is not a goal.
If vouchers were implemented, the goverment would use funding as an
excuse to extend even more control over private schools.
Roland van Gaalen
: Money rules everywhere. The unaccetable side of capitalism?
Yes "money rules" and this means that an _unprecendented_ variety of those
wonderful historical recordings is available in major cities all over the
world. (To understand how this works, I recommend that you read the famous
essay by F.A. Hayek on the role of prices in conveying information in a
market economy.)
I don't think that this would be possible in an economy ruled by
central planners or the kind of democratic committees that just decided to
abolish your favorite classical radio stations. (Also see The Road to
Serfdom, also by Hayek).
As regards the dumbing down of Leiden -- much of this town's fame is
due to the university, but its population is notoriously stupid anyway.
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
Thomas Deas
"PK" <pro...@cybercable.fr> wrote in message
news:389C1505...@cybercable.fr...
> "Mark D. Lew" wrote:
> >
> > In article <389AEB8F...@cybercable.fr>, PK <pro...@cybercable.fr>
wrote:
> >
> > > I'm sorry, I know this is way out of the line of rmcr, but I
> > > simply cannot let these things go unanswered.
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > [...] First and
> > > foremost, the arts were "protected" and "supported" as
> > > "shopping windows" for the system (which was literally sick
> > > of competitive obsession in its relationship with the West).
> >
> > Well, as long as we're running off topic, I must point out that the
arts,
> > while they may have been figuratively sick, were not literally sick.
>
> Mybe my formulation was awkward and unclear,
Not at all.
PK
>
> I have no allegience as such to 'communism', except that many of the
> Eastern blok countries adopted it or had it forced on them)
> > The is no "or". All of them had it forced on them. Without exception.>>
> Excluding the Russian Revolution, I think you will find.....
The "Russian Revolution", as you call the bolshevik "coup",
was just as much forced on the Russian people who has
expressed their will in the first and only free election to
the Constituant, dissolved by force by the Bolsheviks. And I
don't know what you mean by "you will find" - there is none.
> << NATO strategic manipulation of the Balkans>>
> > Any details about that, maybe? >>
> Yes, with pleasure. My take on the Balkans is that at the start NATO,
> Croatia and Serbia sat down at a table (figuratively or literally)
Literally? Where and when, could you tell me? If you cannot,
all the rest of your story falls to pieces as a pure
political fiction, ignoring bare, historical facts.
> and
> discussed how to divide up the Balkans. While Croatia (old ally of Germany)
> was happy to guarantee European integration and commercial rights, Serbia
> was not. Commercial rights would include crucially important Oil and mineral
> issues (minerals in Kossovo). The oil issue would include future oil and gas
> pipelines up to Europe from the Southern NATO countries - Turkey and Greece.
> If you look at the geology of the region(here, a map helps see what this is
> about, and bear in mind that going up the Danube encounters large cliffs for
> part of the way), such pipelines would go through Kossovo and Bosnia. NATO
> got a better 'deal' from the Moslems, so they went with them and "contrived"
> the whole war strategically to look as if it was all Serbia's fault (read
> "The Prince" on conquering and occupying countries - it's almost word for
> word what NATO did). Of course Milosovic did use power and aggression and
> his own part of the army did commit atrocities - nobody is denying this. It
> may help to see the Balkans as two wars - first the civil war in which
> Milosovic took action within what was, of course, his own country,
> Yugoslavia, and at other points attacked parts of Croatia. Remember here
> that Croatia ethnically cleansed all the Serbs out of the Kraina and the
> West did not bat an eyelid.
Formerly, the West did not bat an eyelid when the Serbs
massacred in Vukovar and Srebrenica.
> The second war was the war where NATO was the
> aggressor. This is the war NATO does not want us to understand too well, and
> it is this war that has been covered by elaborate spin from Jamie O'Shea.
> The goals for this second 'strategic' war were a land corridor for the free
> passage of NATO troops (troops the correct word, not 'peacekeepers') from
> N.Europe down to Greece and Turkey, commercial access to the Balkans, and
> in-principle agreements for oil and gas pipelines. Serbia was placed in an
> impossible situiation in this 'second' war, and constantly maintained in
> interviews with Western TV stations that it was defending itself, which was
> of course the case. Its crime? Partly, to be a Non-Aligned Nation. The
> Non-Aligned group, as you probably know, includes China, India, Libya....
> Friends of the USA? I think not. It's not easy to determine which the USA
> can't stand the most - communists or non-aligned powers. In terms of trade,
> Seattle showed that countries non-aligned with its trading interests were
> anathema. It could be assumed that where America's trade goes, its politics
> go. That's what I mean about Oil in the Balkan war. Think about
> it...........
And, of course, nothing happened in Kossovo prior to that,
etc, etc...
I'm sorry to say that, but this is all sheer nonsense which
should be answered almost phrase by phrase. Not to occupy
this group by a detailed account of what has actually
happened, I most strongly recommend the BBC documentary
called "Yugoslavia : the suicide of a Nation", where the
actors speak, and tell quite a different story.
PK
jacqueline laroche
Brian Cantin wrote:Let's see. You support a system where money is coerced
from people to
> support an educational system where control taken away from those that
> are paying. There are also laws that make it compulsary for children
> to attend. So, you want to accuse me of wanting to control people?
>
> --
> Brian Cantin
> An advocate of poisonous individualism.
> To reply via email, replace "dcantin" with "bcantin".
let's see now. cantin wants to pay taxes for school s and control them.
does he also want to pay taxes for defense and control our armed forces
and how they train, purchase wage war, and the like. i think the last guy
that had control like that was a fella named stalin. or was it hitler? or
was it napoleon? whoops, almost forgot good old fidel.
one of the blessings of a democracy is that you give up a certain amount
of power for the good of all of us. don't like that "good." turn the
rascals out and get someone you like...of course there's always that
desert isle.
Peter T. Daniels
society in which education was limited to the elite who could afford it.
David Grayshan wrote:
>
> Since you are clearly a product of the system of which you complain so
> bitterly, I am forced to agree with you, since you are clearly both stupid and
> ignorant.
>
> Twit.
>
> David.
>
> Brian Cantin wrote:
>
> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <o...@earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> > > Andy Evans wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a standard of education
> > > > which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
> > >
> > > Many US high schools ARE burger bars.
> >
> > US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> > public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> > Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> > standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> > and regimentation the students suffer.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Jack W. Hart
Brian Cantin wrote:
>
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <o...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Andy Evans wrote:
> > >
> > > The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a standard of education
> > > which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
> >
> > Many US high schools ARE burger bars.
>
> US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> and regimentation the students suffer.
>
> --
Brian Cantin
<snip>
> let's see now. cantin wants to pay taxes for school s and control them.
> does he also want to pay taxes for defense and control our armed forces
> and how they train, purchase wage war, and the like.
Cantin does not want to pay taxes for schools or defense. I am not any
more interested footing the bill to kill foreigners than I am in paying
to indoctrinate children.
Andy Evans
> etc, etc...
in WW2?
> I'm sorry to say that, but this is all sheer nonsense>.
This is not nonsense, it is a genuine disagreement, and there are plenty of
intellectuals on my side. A war takes place where there are irreconcilable
differences of opinion. Does it surprise anyone that there should continue
to be irreconcilable differences of opinion after the war? I have given you
my take on the war, you have given me yours. I assume we are both
intelligent people. We disagree. Leave it at that.
>I most strongly recommend the BBC documentary called "Yugoslavia : the
suicide of a Nation", where the actors speak, and tell quite a different
story.>
which is where most of them should be dumped. Of course actors tell
stories - what do you expect?
dtritter
>
> jacqueline laroche <jlar...@bway.net> writes:
> <snip>
> > let's see now. cantin wants to pay taxes for school s and control them.> > does he also want to pay taxes for defense and control our armed forces> > and how they train, purchase wage war, and the like.
> <snip>
>
> Cantin does not want to pay taxes for schools or defense. I am not any> more interested footing the bill to kill foreigners than I am in paying> to indoctrinate children.
looks like it's that desert island for you, cantin, unless you are a
masochist who enjoys a society that wants to help. by the way, how are
you on the subject of police and fire and sanitation services? or should
we only protect some citizens, put out selected fires and collect
garbage on an occasional street.????
Marc Perman
>
>> >>Here in NYC we have plenty of pop, much less porn under the Giuliani
>> >>administration, and hardly any soccer.
>
>Suggesting the honorable Carlo Maria Giuliani is responsible for the
>soccer crisis in NYC is a bit of an unsustainable allegation!! (-:
Well, as an Italian who has spent many years in the US, what *has*
Giulini done for soccer in this country?
Marc Perman
Marc Perman
>No Name wrote:
>> We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
>>that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones, but that they are
>different [ ... ]
>
>BALONEY!! That IS the mistake: High culture IS better than the
>pop 'culture'. When you say they are merely 'different', that
>CONSTITUTES the dumbing-down. Some people have more refined taste
>than other people - they should not apologize for that.
>
>I feel that much of this harmful process of continually seeking
>the lowest common denominator results from empty phrases of bad
>18th-century philosophy (like 'all men are created equal'). The
>fact is there are smarter people and less-smart people. There are
>many more stupid people than smart ones, and when everyone's
>opinion counts equally, you obtain the bad results which we
>presently observe.
For further reading on this subject, do a Deja.com search by plugging
in the words "disgust" and "Vroon."
Marc Perman
samir ghiocel golescu
I dare guess adding "rancid" and "rotten" would focalize better the
search(:
ffolliott
samir ghiocel golescu wrote in message ...
>
>I dare guess adding "rancid" and "rotten" would focalize better
the
>search(:
>
Certainly would they as well focalize upon your English the usage.
Brian Cantin
> looks like it's that desert island for you, cantin, unless you are a
> masochist who enjoys a society that wants to help. by the way, how are
> you on the subject of police and fire and sanitation services?
I don't consider police and fire services to be any different than
and other service.
> or should we only protect some citizens, put out selected fires and
> collect garbage on an occasional street.????
What has "we" got to do with it?
If you want to provide for the needy, go ahead. I might even chip in.
But don't pretend that resources extorted at the point of gun have
anything to do with helping.
Marc Perman
I was referring to the conductor, not to hizzoner.
Marc Perman
I didn't know "doing something for soccer" was part of the job
>description for Mayor of New York City. Had he known, perhaps he wouldn't
>have run for office.
>Andre Edouard
>"God will forgive me. C'est son métier." -HH-
Jim Curtis
andre35 <and...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:389C7EB4...@bellsouth.net...
> Conspiracy theorists are a dime a dozen. That's about the right
> price.
Sounds like a conspiracy theory if I ever heard one. What color are their
helicopters? Are they out to get you?
Jim Curtis
EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote in message
news:oqpl9sgqn7u14f5uo...@4ax.com...
> I guess we can't hope that the sacking and hiring of the old and new
> conductor (respectively) op the Dallas Symphony Orch. would draw the
> same media attention?
Maybe if they hired Jimmy Johnson.
Peter T. Daniels
But what the hell is this discussion doing on three classical music
groups?
Brian Cantin wrote:
>
> dtritter <dtri...@bway.net> writes:
> > looks like it's that desert island for you, cantin, unless you are a
> > masochist who enjoys a society that wants to help. by the way, how are
> > you on the subject of police and fire and sanitation services?
>
> I don't consider police and fire services to be any different than
> and other service.
>
> > or should we only protect some citizens, put out selected fires and
> > collect garbage on an occasional street.????
>
> What has "we" got to do with it?
>
> If you want to provide for the needy, go ahead. I might even chip in.
> But don't pretend that resources extorted at the point of gun have
> anything to do with helping.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Mark D. Lew
<and...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I never thought I'd agree with you so wholeheartedly on any issue.
> Let's make a vow never to let it happen again
I am as shocked as you are!
mdl
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
rather hope - I'm as much a cynic as anyone) that the
majority of people are decent "men of goodwill" (and women,
of course), who won't let that kind of tragedy happen
again. Britain had her share of Nazi sympathizers until
(and during?) WWII, but whatever their reasons, and whether
or not they were "manipulated", the decent folk won out, and
most of those of us who were around then still admire them
for taking a stand, even when it appeared they were on the
losing side! America may have provided a lot of material
aid, even before we got into the conflict, but we were
shamed into helping by the gallantry of the inhabitants of
that little island surrounded by hostile forces. (That's
why I find people like the EU obsessed Mr. Sims so hard to
take - I expect better of the Brits!)
David Grayshan wrote:
>
> Evelyn, Evelyn,
>
> Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque) wrote:
>
> > Yes, but would it not also bring an end to education, period? (Or is
> > that, perhaps, what you want?)
>
> *Of course* that is what they want. A nation of illiterates, a true "Great
> Unwashed*, is that much easier to control and manipulate.....
>
> > (Snip) You would prefer, perhaps, a nation of illiterates? (But of
> > course, you very
> > well might - they're easier to control when they haven't been exposed to
Mark D. Lew
(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Yes, but would it not also bring an end to education,
> period? (Or is that, perhaps, what you want?) "Let people
> pay for whatever education they want" only works if everyone
> possesses the financial means to do so. Most of us do not -
> what would you suggest we pay WITH? Our school systems
> (many of them) may be in a sorry state these days, and the
> quality of education they provide may not always be very
> high, but at least it's SOMETHING. You would prefer,
> perhaps, a nation of illiterates? (But of course, you very
> well might - they're easier to control when they haven't
> been exposed to rational thought.)
In fact, people are NOT easier to control when they have not been exposed
to rational thought. That's precisely why public education was invented:
because it's easier to maintain an ordered society when all citizens have a
certain amount of common ground in their thinking
> One of the greatest
> prizes of our democracy is the guarantee of an education -
> we may fall short of the Jeffersonian ideal of "a free
> people, fully informed", but everyone capable of learning at
> least has the chance to do so!
One needs to make the distinction between education and learning. Public
schools really aren't about learning. If they were, then it would be the
students who would come in with a goal and would grade the teachers on
their performance, rather than the other way around. If school were about
learning, it would be a public resource that individuals could avail
themselves of as they choose, sort of like a library. Such public
resources for learning do exist -- including some programs within the
education system -- but the major institutions that we're talking about
when we say "the education system" (ie, high schools, pursuing a degree in
college, etc) are something different.
mdl
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
Brian Cantin wrote:
>
>
> Who do you think pays for education now? Does it come from
> free from heavens like manna?
We do, of course - but that is one of the few uses of my tax
dollars of which I fully approve.
>
> If you were not paying for state supported schools, what would
> you do with the money?
Oh, I'm sure our governments would find SOMETHING. (You
aren't really naive enough to think WE'D get it back, are
you?)
>
> Let's see. You support a system where money is coerced from people to
> support an educational system where control taken away from those that
> are paying. There are also laws that make it compulsary for children
> to attend. So, you want to accuse me of wanting to control people?
It is an unfortunate consequence of "civilization" that some
form of government is necessary. Like any other enterprise,
governments require money to operate. Whatever form
taxation takes, that appears to be their only means of
raising necessary funds. We are therefore "coerced" to
support many far less worthy endeavors than public education
- from which, BTW, most of us (in the U.S. at least) have
benefited immeasurably. The laws making school attendance
compulsory are, I believe, among those intended to protect
children's rights while they are too young to fight their
own battles. That is not exactly "coercion" unless your
viewpoint is totally skewed.
And can you possibly deny that education in the modern world
is a MUST? My grandfather managed quite nicely with less
than an eighth-grade education, my mother was among the
minority of her contemporaries who finished high school, and
a college education was not yet required for landing a
decent job when I received my B.A. But times have changed,
civilization has changed - would you have America descend to
third world status because her youth lack the educational
tools to function in the world they inhabit? And face it,
if education were an elective thing, a great many parents
would prefer to spend the money on other things - especially
now so many are products of the "me" generation!
By way of illustration: How many people of moderate income
"saved for their old age" before Social Security became
law? True, that's not MUCH of a "safety net", but it's
certainly better than nothing at all, and keeps many older
people from being dependent either upon the goodwill of
younger relatives, or support from society (via our tax
dollars).
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
pre-WWII "Isolationist"! Wants to live in his own little
world and ignore the rest of humanity! Let's find him a
nice, private desert island and encourage him to leave
modern eudcational tools like the internet behind! (Maybe
then we can get back to discussing music?)
Brian Cantin wrote:
>
> jacqueline laroche <jlar...@bway.net> writes:
> <snip>
> > let's see now. cantin wants to pay taxes for school s and control them.
> > does he also want to pay taxes for defense and control our armed forces
> > and how they train, purchase wage war, and the like.
> <snip>
>
> Cantin does not want to pay taxes for schools or defense. I am not any
> more interested footing the bill to kill foreigners than I am in paying
> to indoctrinate children.
>
jj
most appropriate, regarding the arts or anything else. It is, IMO, the
balancing act between majority vs. minority. This issue is prominent in
classical music due to the decrease of knowledgable people running
classical music divisions. While this may be a result of rampant
capitalism, it doesn't necessarily make it the only reason for the
decline. In the days when the BBC was well-funded, one of its executives
complained that the biggest question there was whether to program what
people wanted (Blackadder), or what they needed (LSO).
Regards.
EM wrote:
>
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2000 23:27:17 +0100, Johan van Veen <jvv...@casema.net>
> wrote:
>
> >The criticism regarding people who obviously know nothing about about and
> >care even less about classical music is justified. Why should classical
> >music be elitist? Everything which some people know more about than others
> >- be it classical or rock music, or even football (AE: soccer) - is
> >elitist. So what? What gives people the right to decide what others should
> >hear?
> >But we should also be fair. The radio and tv stations play their role in
> >the whole process. Both BBC 3 and WDR 3 have in a way 'popularized' their
> >programmes in an attempt to be less 'elitist' and attract more listeners.
> >I have never believed that this is going to work. But by popularizing they
> >contribute to the trivialization of their programmes. It is the same
> >tendency you see everywhere. In an attempt to compete with commercial
> >radio and tv the public channels start to be like these. In doing so they
> >are in danger of losing their right of existence.
> Money rules everywhere. The unaccetable side of capitalism?
>
> >It is also the directors of public radio and tv who play their part in it.
> >Last week their was a report in a Belgian newspaper that the directors of
> >Belgian radio were considering fundamentally changing the classical
> >channel, or even to abolish it altogether. It will be interesting to see
> >what happens there.
>
> More depressing news from the dumbing down front! I guess the final
> outcome is a United States of the Globe with one homogenized mass of
> dumbed down brain dead consumption slaves all wanting exactly the same
> entertainment, the same fast "food" and the same material goodies,
> speaking the same sort of global-american "English" and ruled by
> TimeWarner-Micro$oft-Sony-UnitedOilCompanies-UnitedTeleCom-etc., aided
> by an army of corrupt politicians.
> I think I need that bottle of Italian red vino now.
>
> Eltjo Meijer
William C. Watson
music? With the super abundance of radio stations surely there should be
room for broad range classical music availability.
In article <20000202014751...@ng-fn1.aol.com>,
harpsic...@aol.com (Harpsichordist) wrote:
> >But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by the
> >majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
> >difficult" classical music?
> >How is this situation elsewhere?
> >
> Living here in the States, its Dumb Central. Our classical stations where I
> live (Washington, DC) play an endless parade of Top 40 classical selections
> (how many times in your life do you really want to hear Brahms Academic
> Festival Overture again?). Fortunately , if you have a RealPlayer, radio
> stations all over the country are available on the net.
Johan van Veen
EM wrote:
> On 5 Feb 2000 13:30:18 GMT, Roland van Gaalen <r...@xs4.xs4all.nl>
> wrote:
>
> >In rec.music.classical.recordings EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote:
> >: Money rules everywhere. The unaccetable side of capitalism?
> >
> >Yes "money rules" and this means that an _unprecendented_ variety of those
> >wonderful historical recordings is available in major cities all over the
> >world. (To understand how this works, I recommend that you read the famous
> >essay by F.A. Hayek on the role of prices in conveying information in a
> >market economy.)
>
> I've read the economy textbooks. Hayek was a notorious fascist imo.
> I don't want a centrally planned economy. Neither do I want a scociety
> ruled by large corporations and big money, and dominated by senseless
> consumerism, vulgar entertainment and loud noise.
> >
> > As regards the dumbing down of Leiden -- much of this town's fame is
> >due to the university, but its population is notoriously stupid anyway.
> >
> >Roland van Gaalen
> >Amsterdam
>
> And that insult from someone who lives in a city whose brain dead
> pseudo-intellectuals complained when the moronic CNN and RAI were
> taken off the cable.
>
> Eltjo M.
>
> Visit: http://www.geocities.com/rmozes/Classicradio.html
This whole thread becomes more ridiculous by the day. Offended as I am by what
happened in Leiden, and which was the original subject of this thread, several
contributors have politicized it, which is total nonsense.
The fact of the matter is that what happened in Leiden is the result of a
social development which has not been started by politicians of whatever
colour. What causes such a development is difficult to determine. Why are
certain things "in" and suddenly "out" after some time? One can only guess. The
point is that today people have a very limited capacity to concentrate. They
want to be captivated immediately, otherwise they go away. That is why news
items on tv have to be very short and therefore superficial - if it is too
long, the viewers zap away.
That is why classical music doesn't attract new audiences - the number of
listeners to classical radio stations doesn't grow, nor does the number of
people attending concerts. Most classical music asks for concentration and time
to understand what it is about. Most people just don't have the patience to sit
down and to listen carefully and quietly.
Apart from that there is a growing tendency that people only want to pay for
things which they are interested in. So it is only natural that they say: why
should I pay for tv and radio channels I don't watch or listen to? The result
is that the taste (or lack of it) of the majority is decisive.
What about the politicians then? Well, most of them don't have any ideology or
clear convictions anymore. Others have, but keep quiet about them, because they
believe most voters are not interested in that sort of things - and they are
right. The main aim is to get (re)elected, so they conform themselves to what
they think the voters want. They don't have a message, and they don't lead, but
just follow the mood of the moment.
The politicians are not the cause but the result of the social development.
The fact that Margaret Thatcher invited people like Georg Solti in Downing
Street and Tony Blair surrounds himself with ageing rockstars has nothing to do
with their political colour but with the fact that politicians don't dare to be
different from their voters anymore.
So: what's the solution for the problem? There is none. The only thing we can
do is just wait and hope for people to get sick, tired and bored of all the
superficial things they are watching and listening to and start to feel empty
and begin to ask for some substance.
--
Johan van Veen
Utrecht (Netherlands)
jvv...@casema.net
ubi deus ibi pax
jan winter
wrote:
(good stuff giving no hope snipped)
>So: what's the solution for the problem? There is none. The only thing we can
>do is just wait and hope for people to get sick, tired and bored of all the
>superficial things they are watching and listening to and start to feel empty
>and begin to ask for some substance.
Now that's why Eltjo needs that Italian red so much.
--
regards,
jan winter, amsterdam
(j.wi...@xs4all.nl)
music is the healing force of the universe
(Albert Ayler)
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
afraid you are correct. Many American music lovers
(including me) have consoled ourselves for the plight of
classical music in this country by assuming it was still
alive and healthy on the European continent. If that is not
true, then what hope is there?
> So: what's the solution for the problem? There is none. The only thing we can
> do is just wait and hope for people to get sick, tired and bored of all the
> superficial things they are watching and listening to and start to feel empty
> and begin to ask for some substance.
>
Peter T. Daniels
there will be programs dedicated to "American Song" -- the promos make
it sound as though it's going to be all-Ella all the time, but that
seems unlikely. Both will be presided over by Jonathan Schwartz, who
already has a similar program on Saturday night and an actual
all-Sinatra program on Sunday evenings.
WNYC-FM's classical service must be in major trouble -- a few months ago
they started giving incredibly dumb promos by Margaret Junthwaite for
each weekday afternoon's program into the WNYC-AM talk show during the 1
o'clock hour. (At 2:00, AM switches from local to NPR; there are in fact
just four hours of local programming per weekday.)
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque) wrote:
>
> You paint a very bleak picture, Mynheer van Veen, yet I'm
> afraid you are correct. Many American music lovers
> (including me) have consoled ourselves for the plight of
> classical music in this country by assuming it was still
> alive and healthy on the European continent. If that is not
> true, then what hope is there?
No Name
The only think I can add is a phrase of one Mexican writer called Tomas Mojarro
who says "History, my friends, is a big zopilotera and a disgusting stink".
By the way, zopilotera is were the vultures feed, and you know what they eat ...
On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:54:40 -0000, Andy Evans <arts.ps...@cwcom.net> wrote:
>> As a man who experienced both societies, I have to repeat the truism that
>capitalism sucks, but Communism sucks infinitely more. >>
>It's pretty evident that the mood on this newsgroup is that we are between a
>rock and a hard place when it comes to the two. I can't claim to have lived
>under a communist regime, and I bow humbly to the opinions of those who
>have. I studied Russian in school and university for a few years, visited
>many Eastern blok countries, grew to respect Slav culture very greatly (I
>have no allegience as such to 'communism', except that many of the Eastern
>blok countries adopted it or had it forced on them), together with its
>traditions and intelligence, and finally married a Serb, so my son is half
>Serbian. I then had to live through ten years of the illegal and immoral
>NATO strategic manipulation of the Balkans, culminating in the bombing of my
>wife's country and the resultant killing of some of her friends and
>relatives. Finally, after my marriage had broken up during this period (my
>country was, after all, at war with hers) I had to suffer the ultimate
>indignity of this totally cynical NATO bombardment being referred to as 'The
>First Humanitarian War in History'. Needless to say, I am deeply sceptical
>of the whole way the Western alliances are going. It goes without saying
>that my experiences are nowhere near the sufferings of many Americans who
>had to go through Viet Nam.
>
>>The famous ballet dancers are taking to the streets in the former Soviet
>Union not because Russia became a capitalist country, but because,
>right now, it is not horse, not pig, I'm afraid.>>
>I'm sure that's true.
>
>
>
No Name
>
>
>Andy Evans wrote in message ...
>> ... capitalism sucks, but Communism sucks infinitely more.
>>
>Who came up with the 'capitalism vs. soviet realism' thread?
I don't know, it began with something about Leiden not having enough
classical music ....
> For
>the last eight years in the U.S. we have been under the most
>left-leaning, socialist, ANTI-capitalist regime this country
>has ever suffered.
Ha,ha,ha! That is a very good joke.
In the serious side, you don't know what socialism is, if your were
living in a socialist regime two things will not happen:
1.- US companies would not exist.
2.- You could not express yourself here.
3.- You would be a state worker, whatever you do.
4.- You would not be so rich (with your salary, whatever that is, you
would be surprised how much good you could do in any 3rd world country).
Ok, they are 4 things, sorry.
> Between politically-correct 'goodthink' and
>the government harassing the manufacturers of legal products, we
>are as close to Communism as I ever want to get.
Which legal products? Could you mention so we share your anger?
> That's why
>WHOEVER is ultimately the Republican candidate must be supported,
>rather than let Gore continue dismantling America.
>
Good grief! Let me get some share of the dismantling please!
Stock market soaring, unemployment lowest than ever, salarie higher than ever,
most people owning a house than ever before and all this without
needing a war to artificially create jobs.
Send Clinton to my country any day!
>
No Name
> but that is a lesser evil compared to be told what is good for us to listen
>( soviet realism anyone?).>>
>I wouldn't write off communism unless you are fully acquainted with the many
>faults of capitalism.
I thing we have anough evidence by now that communism does not provide the
material and intelectual satisfactors a human been requires to pursue the
best life she posibly can, this is completely independent of how good or bad
is to live in a capitalist society.
> We have lived for far too long with the illusion that
>the licenced greed trumpeted by the forces of free enterprise is 'good for
>us'.
It is "better for us" than communism. I had had the chance to see how people
live in capitalist and communist societies, and people in capitalist
ones fare far better in the material, intelectual and even spiritual sense.
If there is something better it has not been invented yet, so I stick to
what is working better.
> Such greed, apart from incidental flaws like destroying the planet
>through rampant consumerism (not something we should entirely ignore
>although most politicians seem happy to), is leading to the setting up of
>global trading institutions with 'rules' that are coming uncomfortably close
>to the sort of protectionism that typified the Soviet Union. Remember
>Seattle a few months ago?
Here I don't follow your logic: the ones that were for protectionism were
the protesters, most free-market oriented goverments are pushing against
protectionism (at least against the cynical one, most goverments have still
the odd thing they don't want to let go).
Now, the environment is far better in countries were the consumer can decide
with her voting dollars to buy less polutant goods. In countries were there
are not such incentives they are still breathing lead from their car's petrol,
just to mention one example.
And comming back to the communists, do you remember Chernobyl? The lack of
protection for the environment in communist regimes is appaling. Go to
VietNam, North Korea or China. While in the UK for example the Thames has fish
again in VietNam the Saigon river is maybe one of the dirtiest in the world.
> When it comes to the arts, they traditionally did
>well under 'protectionist' regimes like the Soviet Union which, surprise
>surprise, protected them educationally and financially.
Yes, if you forget the freedom of expresion issue. They could dance, sing,
write and play as much as they wanted as long as everything was in line
with the state's line of thougt. One little bit a bureacrat decided you
were out of order and your work will not be published/performed anymore.
No thank you, I don't want that kind of protection for the arts.
One music teacher, and sometimes TV producer, used to tell us the history
of how he had the honor to interview Shostakovich for a certain TV program.
The composer was almost crying of pleasure because for the first time in
a long time he was talking about his music for the sake of it adn not about
politics. The "friends" of the composer (bodyguards for his protection of
course) demanded after the recording of the program to get all the tapes
because they could not afford that such an interview could get into the
communist world. The TV station refused. The tapes disapeared a few weeks
later anyway .....
> It's now that the
>famous ballet dancers and circus artists of the Soviet Union are taking to
>the streets. I'm not saying I buy communism. I'm saying I just don't buy
>capitalism either, and I'm getting very allergic to its perrenial and
>incessant spin in my middle age.
They are facing reality, and I am convinced they will come out of the
experience stronger as artists and as persons. Lets hoep they have the
endurance to go through this difficult time.
Roland van Gaalen
: wrote:
:>In rec.music.classical.recordings EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote:
:>: Money rules everywhere. The unaccetable side of capitalism?
:>
:>Yes "money rules" and this means that an _unprecendented_ variety of those
:>wonderful historical recordings is available in major cities all over the
:>world. (To understand how this works, I recommend that you read the famous
:>essay by F.A. Hayek on the role of prices in conveying information in a
:>market economy.)
: I've read the economy textbooks. Hayek was a notorious fascist imo.
: I don't want a centrally planned economy. Neither do I want a scociety
: ruled by large corporations and big money, and dominated by senseless
: consumerism, vulgar entertainment and loud noise.
To some extent I agree with you -- but that Hayek was a "fascist" is news
to me.
:>
:> As regards the dumbing down of Leiden -- much of this town's fame is
:>due to the university, but its population is notoriously stupid anyway.
: And that insult from someone who lives in a city whose brain dead
: pseudo-intellectuals complained when the moronic CNN and RAI were
: taken off the cable.
Of course we should take it with a grain of salt -- but Leiden _does_ have
that reputation! And yes, Amsterdam has a certain reputation, too.
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
Rinze Mozes
wrote:
>Of course we should take it with a grain of salt -- but Leiden _does_ have
>that reputation! And yes, Amsterdam has a certain reputation, too.
>
I remember there was a survey in the 70's after the average IQ of the
Dutch citizens. The inhabitants of Leiden scored the lowest, including
the students it was said. Despite the students, I always thought, but
now I understand it was because of.
Rinze Mozes
krazy kat
th...@nospam.net says...
> High culture IS better than the
> pop 'culture'.
>
--
Frank
operamail.com is where it's really @