Gounod's Faust
EM
purchase of Gounod's Faust. My questions are:
Is it worth the investment and what are the recommended recordings
(and why)?
Eltjo M.
letrouvere
FAUST is well worth the investment. I recommend either of the
recordings with Victoria de los Angeles, Nicolai Gedda, and Boris
Christoff. Victoria de los Angeles and Nicolai Gedda have very good
French for non-native speakers (or should I say "singers"?), and they
sing very well, to say the least. Christoff is IMHO the most
interesting Mephistopheles to have recorded the role.
--
My web page:
http://www.angelfire.com/ma2/calmaviva
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
andre35
There are a few Faust recordings floating around. My favorite is the
12/31/49 performance at the Met.
No, it isn't particularly idiomatic, Warren and Tajo under perform,
Kirsten is more than adequate.
But, Di Stefano is glorious in this performance. Remember in '49 he had
not yet ruined his voice.
Of all the Fausts I have heard, Di Stefano falls easiest on my ear.
Everyone has a favorite, simply put, this one is mine.
It is available on Arkadia MP 478.2 The sound is adequate, good for '49.
I thank the person who told me about it.
no pasaran
andre35
andre35
Faust is one of the most recorded operas, as you know.
My personal favorite is the Met recording of 12/31/49.....right..'49
I think the cast is uneven, in that Warren and Tajo under perform
their roles.
Kirsten does her usual lovely work, no problems there....nothing
stellar.
Ah, but Di Stefano in '49, what a wonder. His singing is nothing
short of gorgeous. Concerning Di Stefano, I don't have a humble opinion.
His French is idiomatic and clear, the voice itself not yet "played
out" with heavier roles.
As I write, I am playing the recording, and loving it.
You've no doubt figured out this is my favorite Faust.
It is available on Arkadia MP 478.2, and I thank the person who put me on
to the CD. I had a 4-Track tape.
I hope you enjoy the one you choose as much as I enjoy this one.
andre35
Enrique Eskenazi
(EM) wrote:
>Continuing my quest of 19th century French music I am considering the
>purchase of Gounod's Faust. My questions are:
>Is it worth the investment and what are the recommended recordings
>(and why)?
1930: Vezzani, Berthon, Journet, Busser cond. (Malibran Music): the most
idiomatic rendition I know, with a poserfull almost heroic Faust, and a
Mephistopheles who, even past his prime, is still elegant.
1940: Crooks, Jepson, Pinza, Warren, Pelletier cond. (live Met, Naxos):
Exciting performance with a lyric Faust, Pinza's Mephistopheles and Warren's
Valentin.
1949: Di Stefano, Kirsten, Tajo, Warren, Pelletier cond. (live Met,
Arkadia): ravishing Faust of Di Stefano.
1959: Gedda, De Los Angeles, Christoff, Blanc, Cluytens cond (EMI): almost
classical recording. A ravishing Marguerite, a good Faust.
1973: Kraus, Scotto, Ghiaurov, Ethuin cond, (live Tokyo, Gala?). Great cast,
unconventional Marguerite and Kraus' stylish approach.
1980: Kraus, Freni, Ghiaurov, Pretre cond (live Chicago, Myto). This
performance exists also on video. Again, Kraus is top-notch and the
performance is exciting.
Regards
---
Enrique
eske...@teleline.es
Io chi sono? Eh, non lo so.
-Nol sapete?
Quasi no.
BachelorTX
stereo -- nothing tremendous happens here, but all is well vocally and
stylistically. I happen to like a live performance with Leopold Simoneau on the
VAI label, but some find it too slow and heavy (and there's no libretto, as
with most live sets). Many big-voice enthusiasts like the easily available
London recording with Sutherland, Corelli and Ghiarov, but lovers of French
style will seek elsewhere. So, Cluytens then (it's reasonably priced, too).
BachelorTX
well stylistically -- Christoff is no one's ideal of a French Mefisto. But he
has a big, secure, evil-sounding voice, and the other singers provide the right
style, so it's still a good compromise.
G Riggs
<19991028165900...@ng-cn1.aol.com>...
And sadly he remains the least satisfying Mephisto. IMO, he really is a ham
here -- and I write as someone who really admires his King in Don Carlo, his
Fiesco in Simon Boccanegra, etc. It could have been that in the French
tongue he just felt compelled to counterbalance the implicit strictness in
language and style with a sheer communicative (but ultimately anti-musical)
flamboyance that, in the end, unbalanced the entire work.
While appreciative of Enrique Eskenazi's list of distinguished performances,
there is yet another one that is my current favorite: a well-transcribed MET
b'cast from 1943 on the RADIO YEARS label, featuring Raoul Jobin, Licia
Albanese, Ezio Pinza and John Charles Thomas under Sir Thomas Beecham.
Miracle of miracles, they are all in excellent voice and acting up a storm.
For a precis of this and two or three other worthwhile Fausts, view
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023/faust.htm
Cordially,
Geoffrey Riggs
--
==============================================
The Collector's Guide to Opera Recordings and Videos
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023
The Collector's Guide to Books on Opera
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023/reading.htm
==============================================
Matthew B. Tepper
pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>While appreciative [sic] of Enrique Eskenazi's list of distinguished
>well-transcribed MET b'cast from 1943 on the RADIO YEARS label, featuring
>Raoul Jobin, Licia Albanese, Ezio Pinza and John Charles Thomas under Sir
>Thomas Beecham. Miracle of miracles, they are all in excellent voice and
>acting up a storm.
I wonder how this compares with Sir Thomas' two (!) commercial recordings
of this opera?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Enrique Eskenazi
bache...@aol.com (BachelorTX) wrote:
>I happen to like a live performance with Leopold Simoneau on the
>VAI label
Could you tell de cast and the date of that performance? I haven't heard
Simoneau as Faust and being an admirer of that wonderful singer I'm very
interested...
BachelorTX
>>VAI label
>
>Could you tell de cast and the date of that performance? I haven't heard
>Simoneau as Faust and being an admirer of that wonderful singer I'm very
>interested...
There's some debate about the date of the performance. The booklet lists 1963;
other sources I've come across say 1957. I tend to believe 1963, since this
Viennese studio-broadcast (no audience present) is in stereo (okay sound except
for occasional echo and reverberation). Simoneau is in great shape here; his
wife Pierette Alarie is very good; and Heinz Rehruss is a bit dry-voiced and
thin on top but has the right French style for Mefisto. Rivoli's tempos are
kind of heavy and slow, but they seem to make more sense once you get used to
them. It's VAIA 1143-3, and costs about 34 bucks at Tower.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Thu, 28 October 1999 10:03 AM EDT
>Message-id: <3818560...@news.wanadoo.nl>
>
>Continuing my quest of 19th century French music I am considering the
>purchase of Gounod's Faust. My questions are:
>Is it worth the investment and what are the recommended recordings
>(and why)?
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FAUST is an essential part of any opera collection. Gounod provides, imho, the
first really sensual love music in opera. Where Verdi is chaste (OTELLO) or
simply enthusiastic (BALLO), Gounod has an almost libidinous and yet poetic
expression in "O nuit d'amour". Puccini's magic is anticipated.
I have at one time or another owned about 7 different recordings of this opera.
None is perfect in the sense of the great De Sabata / Callas / Gobbi /
DStefano TOSCA.
My favorites are (in descending order):
(3) Bjoerling / Soederstroem / Siepi / Merrill conducted by Jean Morel (MYTO)
(2) Gedda / de los Angeles / Christoff / Blanc conducted by Cluytens (EMI)
(1) Domingo / Freni / Ghiaurov / Allen conducted by Pretre
Domingo was captured in exceptionally fine voice with. He is best heard in his
duets rather than in the solo (where DiStefano is unsurpassed). But as good as
all these tenors are, for me this opera is distinctive because of the bass -- a
character who combines the charm of Don Giovanni and the relentless force of
the Commendatore. Nicolai Ghiaurov is superb here (although he was even better
in an earlier Decca/London recording opposite Corelli and Sutherland.
De los Angeles is far and away, imho, the loveliest executant of Marguerite.
Mirella Freni is a distant second, but still second -- better than Soederstoem,
Kirsten, Te Kanawa, Sutherland.
Pretre is livelier than Cluytens or Bonynge or Davis (who made a rather weak
recording). I hope we get a chance one day to hear Gergiev tackle this score.
The Busser (1931) recording I find terribly overrated. Journet is weak, almost
infirm. Vezzani lacks sensuality. Busser seems to resort to fast tempi in
order to get the opera on as few 78's as possible.
By the way, there is a Caruso / French opera disc that contains about 30
minutes worth of FAUST. I strongly recommend it. It reveals the marvelous
baritonal warmth that made Caruso's voice sound so virile. There is a throb
in his singing of this role that I have found in only one other singer: Placido
Domingo.
==G/P Dave
Grant Menzies
>>From: emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl (EM)
>>Date: Thu, 28 October 1999 10:03 AM EDT
>>Message-id: <3818560...@news.wanadoo.nl>
>>
>>Continuing my quest of 19th century French music I am considering the
>>purchase of Gounod's Faust. My questions are:
>>Is it worth the investment and what are the recommended recordings
>>(and why)?
>>
>>Eltjo M.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>FAUST is an essential part of any opera collection. Gounod provides, imho, the
>first really sensual love music in opera. Where Verdi is chaste (OTELLO) or
>simply enthusiastic (BALLO), Gounod has an almost libidinous and yet poetic
>expression in "O nuit d'amour". Puccini's magic is anticipated.
What about all three acts of TRISTAN UND ISOLDE, particularly the
second? I don't think it's too left-field to state that Wagner said
far more and far better about sensual love in this opera than Gounod
ever came close to saying in anything he wrote. On the other hand, I
think Gounod's R&J a far more affecting representation of love than
anything in FAUST. (I admittedly am not a FAUST fan ;-)
Grant
>==G/P Dave
>
Grant Menzies
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Il faut choisir
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
andre35
Of course, only one has Di Stefano..........talk about sensual music...........
no pasaran
andre35
Tom Kaufman
>What about all three acts of TRISTAN UND ISOLDE, particularly the second? >>
Dave had written that Faust was the first opera to have really sensual love
music. That is probably correct, since Tristan came several years <I><later</I>
<< I don't think it's too left-field to state that Wagner said far more and
far better about sensual love in this opera than Gounod ever came close to
saying in anything he wrote. >>
De gustibus.
<< On the other hand, I
>think Gounod's R&J a far more affecting representation of love than
anything in FAUST.>>
Again, De gustibus.
<< (I admittedly am not a FAUST fan ;-)>>
I can see that.
Again, De gustibus.
Dom Tomas
Tom Kaufman
URL of web site:
www.geocities.com/Vienna/8917/index.html
David Shengold
----------
In article <19991029095712...@ng-fr1.aol.com>, tomk...@aol.com
(Tom Kaufman) wrote:
>Dave had written that Faust was the first opera to have really sensual love
>music. That is probably correct, since Tristan came several years <I><later</I>
Funny, at 18 I found TRISTAN more aptly sensual- now I think Gounod in FAUST
and ROMEO is on to something more *mutual*, less merely paired narcissism,
than Wagner ever managed.
Also, Verdi in BALLO ( premiered a month before FAUST) gets cooking in the
Act II duet ("Ebben... si - t'amo..."). But to me this note is first
introduced into opera by Meyerbeer in the Grand Duet in Act IV of HUGUENOTS
(1836) with the "Tu l'as dit" section.
-David Shengold
Grant Menzies
music question. Besides, the score of TRISTAN was completed in 1859,
the year FAUST premiered. So they were coexistent, on paper if not on
the stage.
Grant
Grant Menzies
>----------
>In article <19991029095712...@ng-fr1.aol.com>, tomk...@aol.com
>(Tom Kaufman) wrote:
>>Dave had written that Faust was the first opera to have really sensual love
>>music. That is probably correct, since Tristan came several years <I><later</I>
>Funny, at 18 I found TRISTAN more aptly sensual- now I think Gounod in FAUST
>and ROMEO is on to something more *mutual*, less merely paired narcissism,
>than Wagner ever managed.
I suppose in some matters I'm still stuck at 18 ;-)
>Also, Verdi in BALLO ( premiered a month before FAUST) gets cooking in the
>Act II duet ("Ebben... si - t'amo..."). But to me this note is first
>introduced into opera by Meyerbeer in the Grand Duet in Act IV of HUGUENOTS
>(1836) with the "Tu l'as dit" section.
>-David Shengold
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Fri, 29 October 1999 10:51 AM EDT
>Message-id: <3819...@news.nwlink.com>
>
>Quality rather than chronology seemed more apposite to the sensual
>music question. Besides, the score of TRISTAN was completed in 1859,
>the year FAUST premiered. So they were coexistent, on paper if not on
>the stage.
>
>Grant
>
>
>*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
>Il faut choisir
>*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Wagner's sensualiity I find mainly in the libretto rather than in the music, no
matter how many times the tenor and soprano bellow their repetitiions of
"ewig".
A startling aspect of FAUST is to find that it was appreciated -- and
especially the Garden Scene -- by Berlioz, a severe critic and a composer who
had written a dramatic cantata on the subject. Berlioz thought Gounod's phrase
"Quel trouble en mon coeur" especially inspired.
MIREILLE is yet another opera I dealy love, but after any prolonged hiatus
between hearings, I am always surprised to find how much lovely melody, harmony
and orchestration there is in Gounod's opera.
"Il faut choisir"? J'ai choisi: Gounod -- bien sūr! toujours! Wagner --
peut-źtre (de temps-en-temps).
Je suis complčtement en accord avec Monsieur Tom Kaufman (un vrai genilhomme)
quand il dit: "Chacun ą son goūt".
:-) G/P Dave
Grant Menzies
>>From: scot...@europa.com (Grant Menzies)
>>Date: Fri, 29 October 1999 10:51 AM EDT
>>Message-id: <3819...@news.nwlink.com>
>>
>>Quality rather than chronology seemed more apposite to the sensual
>>music question. Besides, the score of TRISTAN was completed in 1859,
>>the year FAUST premiered. So they were coexistent, on paper if not on
>>the stage.
>>
>>Grant
>>
>>Grant Menzies
>>
>>*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
>>Il faut choisir
>>*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Wagner's sensualiity I find mainly in the libretto rather than in the music, no
>matter how many times the tenor and soprano bellow their repetitiions of
>"ewig".
I have to confess that for me it's precisely the opposite -- the music
says so much more than Wagner's often convoluted verbiage ever does,
that words and music are sometimes locked in mortal combat and cause
their own tension unrelated to that so superbly created by the score.
That's really the trouble with the TRISTAN score. It is such a
miracle, really, and though Wagner's dramatic pacing is very
impressive, the libretto just doesn't match the music idea for idea.
Yet the words probably called forth the music as much as the other way
round. As always, there's as much to admire in Wagner as to find
puzzling.
>A startling aspect of FAUST is to find that it was appreciated -- and
>especially the Garden Scene -- by Berlioz, a severe critic and a composer who
>had written a dramatic cantata on the subject. Berlioz thought Gounod's phrase
>"Quel trouble en mon coeur" especially inspired.
I still would like to hear what Verdi might have done with the FAUST
story.... I think I'd like it better than Gounod's.
>MIREILLE is yet another opera I dealy love, but after any prolonged hiatus
>between hearings, I am always surprised to find how much lovely melody, harmony
>and orchestration there is in Gounod's opera.
>"Il faut choisir"? J'ai choisi: Gounod -- bien sûr! toujours! Wagner --
>peut-être (de temps-en-temps).
Es tut mir sehr leid, aber... über den Geschmack lässt sich nicht
streiten.... ;-)
>Je suis complètement en accord avec Monsieur Tom Kaufman (un vrai genilhomme)
>quand il dit: "Chacun à son goût".
>:-) G/P Dave
Mark D. Lew
wrote:
> Quality rather than chronology seemed more apposite to the sensual
> music question. Besides, the score of TRISTAN was completed in 1859,
> the year FAUST premiered. So they were coexistent, on paper if not on
> the stage.
I don't know about "quality vs chronology", but it's true that TRISTAN was
written the same year Faust premiered. Similarly, WALKÜRE was written in
1856, even though it too wasn't performed till much later.
Interesting that no one has proposed any candidates for "first really
sensual love music in opera" other than Gounod or Wagner. I think the real
pioneer work is SAPHO, not FAUST, but that's still Gounod.
I've seen arias by Halévy (eg, Reine de Chypre) which I'd call "sensual",
but I don't know about "love music".
mdl
(who think FAUST is OK, but most other Gounod operas are better)
andre35
But assuredly not more popular, or doesn't that count?
I understand that was not the subject under discussion, but should be taken
into account.
best
no pasaran
andy
Enrique Eskenazi
>FAUST is an essential part of any opera collection. Gounod provides, imho,
the
>first really sensual love music in opera.
The first really sensual love music in opera I know is that of Monteverdi's
L'Incoronazione di Poppea'. And it hardly has been surpassed IMO. Of course,
it is not "romantic" music, but it has all the fire AND sensuality
imaginable.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Fri, 29 October 1999 09:52 PM EDT
>Message-id: <381A4F71...@bellsouth.net>
Andre,
This may ruin what is left of both of our reputations, but I am beginning to
think like you.
When I read mdl's cute little parenthetic remark, my viscera squirmed. He must
have said that while sipping tea with a pinky tastefully raised.
FAUST has fared better than ROMEO ET JULIETTE and my beloved MIREILLE for some
good reasons. First, I think FAUST operates on many levels. Anchoring the
work is the characterization of the devil as a suave gentleman who sings
drinking songs and serenades (like Don Giovanni) and veils his spite in mock
"politesse". In Siebel we have a recrudescence (in romantic garb) of
Cherubino. Valentin sings an aria that was worthy of heralding the "Lassie"
show. Marguerite intones a ditty that sounds like it could have come out of
the middle ages "Il était une roi de Thulé". And she has soaring music all
along, including her part in the church scene and in that glorious final trio
"Anges pur anges radieux". Now, as for Faust himself, well I agree and
disagree with him. By all means: "A moi les plaisirs" but beware of the price.
mdl in his offhand remark is just showing us how "awwfully mawr" sophisticated
his tastes are than those of the hoi polloi.
FAUST is in the judgments of most (though curiously not of its composer)
Gounod's chef d'oeuvre.
But Andre you said all that with considerably less prolixity than I.
==G/P Dave
Mark D. Lew
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
> mdl in his offhand remark is just showing us how "awwfully mawr" sophisticated
> his tastes are than those of the hoi polloi.
Dave, you know me better than that. I do not lie about my preferences, nor
do I design those preferences based on an agenda of being "sophisticated".
If I say I like R&J better than Faust, it's because I like R&J better than
Faust.
Of course I realize that most people consider Faust Gounod's best work. I
respect that. I just happen to like some of the others better.
mdl
Mark D. Lew
> FAUST is in the judgments of most (though curiously not of its composer)
> Gounod's chef d'oeuvre.
Aha, so Gounod and I agree. Do you happen to know which of his works
Gounod did consider his best? I'm curious. Probably not R&J either, huh?
mdl
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sat, 30 October 1999 06:29 AM EDT
>Message-id: <markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>
As a matter of fact, I believe your hunch, Mark, is correct: ROMEO ET JULIETTE
was the work that Gounod held in highest esteem.
Gounod had great affection for MIREILLE, too. He journeyed to Arles around
1862. This was in an early attempt to provide authentic local color. I
believe he discussed his ideas with Mistral, who wrote the dramatic poem, but
not the libretto. The bearded and kindly Gounod played (and sang) excerpts of
his new opera for the townsfolk and they loved it.
Gounod was frankly puzzled by the success of his FAUST. It actually was, for
most of the late 19th century, the most popular opera in the world along with
IL TROVATORE. It opened the Met in 1883 and was performed so often, that the
building was referred to as a "Faustspielhaus".
The baritone aria (a post-premiere addition to FAUST) was written to an English
text by Charles Santley (Valentin at the the first London offering of the
opera).
There are puzzles about this opera the solutions to which are in the hands of
the Gounod heirs, who refuse to give scholars access to the precious
manuscript. Richard Bonynge, to his credit, tried to give us a complete
recording, but he, too, was denied access to the manuscript. Bonynge did
include Siebel's rarely heard second aria.
Another mystery surrounds the authorship of the rather piquant ballet music.
It was probably orchestrated by Leo Delibes, but many believe that Delibes
wrote the whole thing. (It sounds like music suitable for SYLVIA).
FAUST evolved over many years. It began as opera-comique (with spoken
dialogue, of course). Gounod, as they say, "musicked" the recitatives and that
permitted the opera to enter the international repertory. (I'd wager anything
that Bizet -- had he lived -- would have done the same for CARMEN. I just hate
the yada-yada in otherwise splendid works like FREISCHUETZ, FIDELIO, PERICHOLE
-- not to be confused with the wondrous secco recitatives in Mozart's
comedies).
At any rate Gounod probably distanced himself from FAUST because its popularity
obscured the merit of his other operas.
You probably know that Gounod was the Khedive's second choice to write AIDA
(the third choice was, believe it or not, Richard Wagner).
By the way, it was Gounod's brother-in-law who got him to insert the Soldier's
Chorus -- the first item I ever related to in this opera (the tune was used as
an anthem in "color war" [Green vs. Gold] at Camp Deerhead in 1944).
Originally the scene contained only the "Déposons les armes". It is the
splendidly bumptious "Gloire immortelle de nos aieux" that was added.
Ah, my dear Mark, I cannot doubt your sincerity, but I believe if you would
study FAUST and put out of your mind the impressions derived from too many
mediocre performances, I think you might find yourself leaning in the direction
of regarding it as Gounod's most siginificant contribution to the world of
opera.
A last word -- most snobbish are the mystical Germans who insist on titling the
opera MARGUERITE, lest it besmirch the reputation of Johann Wolfgang Goethe. I
have news for them. I'll bet that Goethe's fame has gone around the world on
the shoulders of Gounod's music.
It still amazes me that crotchety Hector Berlioz could recognize and salute the
gleaming light in his rival's opera. That would be like Leoncavallo
appreciating Puccini's BOHEME or Paisiello hailing Rossini's BARBER.
All the best,
==G/P Dave
Tom Kaufman
list a few favorite excerpts from Gounod operas---and the two that come to mind
right away are the soldier's chorus in Faust, and the tenor aria: Assistez-moi,
race divine from Reine de Saba.
Other good ones are Siebel's first aria in Faust, Si les filles d'Arles sons
reines in Mireille, the church scene in Faust (maybe because it's so
Meyerbeerian, the Faust waltzes, Vulcan's air from Philemon et Baucis, and
Source delicieuse from Polyeucte.
I guess Faust wins.
Eduardo J Baez
Cluytens, cond.), in the EMI label, is still the best IMO and certainly
worth getting.
EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote in message
news:3818560...@news.wanadoo.nl...
Capa081348
>From: grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE)
>Date: Sat, 30 October 1999 08:49 AM EDT
>Message-id: <19991030084910...@ng-cm1.aol.com>
>A last word -- most snobbish are the mystical Germans who insist on titling
>the
>opera MARGUERITE, lest it besmirch the reputation of Johann Wolfgang Goethe.
>I
>have news for them. I'll bet that Goethe's fame has gone around the world on
>the shoulders of Gounod's music.
>
>All the best,
>==G/P Dave
-------------------------------------------
Hi, Dave
As one who didn't grow up with opera, I'm not sure that I can agree with that.
Although it may be that Faust, like Milton and Proust, just to name two, is far
more respected than read. Aside from the ancient Greeks and Romans, I think
many critics of literature and drama (in this country, at least) would rank
Goethe with Moliere, Racine, Ibsen and Chekhov in the very top tier of
dramatists who did not write in English. (With apologies to Lope de Vega,
Calderon, Corneille, Beaumarchais, Schiller, Strindberg, Rostand, Molnar,
Pirandello, Brecht, Ionesco and others very near that august level).
There have been a number of interesting points raised on this thread.
Regarding the first "really sensual love music in opera", I would propose the
Hymn to Venus in Tannhaeuser. If the judges rule that that is "lust music"
rather than love music, my slightly later choice would be the Wintersturme/Du
Bist der Lenz etc. sequence that closes act I of Walkure, the music of which I
believe was written in the
mid 1850's, although not performed for many years thereafter.
Kraus was my favorite Faust; de Los Angeles my favorite Marguerite.
Regarding your colloquy with Mark about the popularity of Faust, I would say
that you both make good points. Faust has to be one of the easiest operas to
fall in love with quickly, because of the fascination of its age-old story, its
almost non-stop melodic beauty, and IMO, the most glorious finale in all of
opera (when performed by three great singers).
On the other hand, the musical beauties of Faust seem to me to be all on the
surface (but what a surface!), while Mozart, Verdi, and especially, Wagner
offer more complex musical strata to explore. I need to give Faust a long rest
in between listenings to *really* enjoy it; I can listen to Mozart and Wagner
every night and not tire of them.
This last may be more of a comment on the consistenly high level of the
operatic output of the mature Mozart, Verdi, and Wagner than anything else.
Best Regards,
Pat Finley
Der Reine Tor
Mike Richter
principals but Ernest Blanc's Valentin gets the palm for performance,
though the sound is better on the later issue. However, the choice here
is between two excellent recordings and neither can be faulted overall.
Mike
--
mric...@cpl.net
http://mrichter.simplenet.com
CD-R http://resource.simplenet.com
Commspkmn
principals but Ernest Blanc's Valentin gets the palm for performance,
though the sound is better on the later issue. However, the choice here
is between two excellent recordings and neither can be faulted overall.
Mike >>
Mike-
I'm a bit confused by what you wrote. Are you saying that Ernest Blanc sings
Valentin on the first or second EMI issue? As I recall, Jean Borthayre is the
Valentin on the 1953 mono recording, and Blanc the Valentin for the 1958 stereo
issue.
Ken Meltzer
Jon Davis
>principals but Ernest Blanc's Valentin gets the palm for performance,
The earlier mono version is the one with Jean Borthayre as Valentin. The
stereo one is with Ernest Blanc.
Jon Davis
An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys.
Mike Richter
Mike
Commspkmn wrote:
>
> << A slight disagreement here. The monaural version with the same named
> principals but Ernest Blanc's Valentin gets the palm for performance,
> though the sound is better on the later issue. However, the choice here
> is between two excellent recordings and neither can be faulted overall.
>
> Mike >>
>
> Mike-
> I'm a bit confused by what you wrote. Are you saying that Ernest Blanc sings
> Valentin on the first or second EMI issue? As I recall, Jean Borthayre is the
> Valentin on the 1953 mono recording, and Blanc the Valentin for the 1958 stereo
> issue.
> Ken Meltzer
--
andre35
God bless you Sir, and thanks for the roses. Does this mean we're engaged?
Seriously, ostentatious erudition is one of the curses of rmo. For example, one
needn't know the publishing dates. One need only make note of who comes out of a
performance whistling or humming what, and perhaps feeling better than before he
entered.
This is not to say that Mark is wrong in any way, but we always seem to fall
away from the real issues into minutiae and dates etc. Very good for musicologists,
not for baseball fans. Er, opera fans.
Pace
Andre
GRNDPADAVE wrote:
> mdl in his offhand remark is just showing us how "awwfully mawr" sophisticated
> his tastes are than those of the hoi polloi.
>
> FAUST is in the judgments of most (though curiously not of its composer)
> Gounod's chef d'oeuvre.
>
Eduardo J Baez
Mike Richter <mric...@cpl.net> wrote in message
news:381B1590...@cpl.net...
> A slight disagreement here. The monaural version with the same named
> principals but Ernest Blanc's Valentin gets the palm for performance,
> though the sound is better on the later issue. However, the choice here
> is between two excellent recordings and neither can be faulted overall.
>
> Mike
>
> Eduardo J Baez wrote:
> >
> > The 1959 stereo recording with de Los Angeles, Gedda and Christoff
(Andre
> > Cluytens, cond.), in the EMI label, is still the best IMO and certainly
> > worth getting.
> >
> > EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote in message
> > news:3818560...@news.wanadoo.nl...
> > > Continuing my quest of 19th century French music I am considering the
> > > purchase of Gounod's Faust. My questions are:
> > > Is it worth the investment and what are the recommended recordings
> > > (and why)?
> > >
> > > Eltjo M.
>
Gail Mrozak
>
> At any rate Gounod probably distanced himself from FAUST because its popularity
> obscured the merit of his other operas.
If that's the reason, he had plenty of company. Seems like a lot of
composers distance themselves from their highly popular works, if said
works overshadow the rest of their oeuvre.
> A last word -- most snobbish are the mystical Germans who insist on titling the
> opera MARGUERITE, lest it besmirch the reputation of Johann Wolfgang Goethe. I
> have news for them. I'll bet that Goethe's fame has gone around the world on
> the shoulders of Gounod's music.
I thought the Germans did this to indicate that the work only covered
_part_ of Goethe's work.
Reminds me of a joke (which is better told than written). Stop me if
you've heard it before!
An Englishman was telling another about Goethe, giving his best effort
to pronounce it as the Germans do--Guh-tuh. His American companion was
confused; never heard of this fellow. Finally the man said, "He wrote
Faust."
"Oh," said the companion, "In America, we pronounce it Goo-noh."
Don't blame me! My husband told me this joke!
--
Gail Mrozak
"You play that cling cling cling jazz
or you won't get PAID tonight!"
--Stan Freberg, "The Great Pretender"
Lee Southgate
"San Francisco", starring Clark Gable and Jeanette MacDonald in which
Jeanette M. plays a singer who becomes an opera star.
In the movie the big feature is Gounod's Faust. (Gable does not sing.)
Jeanette M. and a supporting cast sing several of the principal arias of
Faust.
They are really beautifully sung and visually quite amazing. The finale
is as good as any I have ever heard. (IMHO)
If you can get the video of this movie you can judge for yourself. I do
not know if the
score of the movie is available on LP, Casettes, CD --or other...
Does anyone else remember the movie itself from 1936 (you'll have to be
pretty old, too)--or perhaps seen the video --the latter readily
available at video stores?
Interested in any replies.
Thanks,
LS
Enrique Eskenazi
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
>ROMEO ET JULIETTE
>was the work that Gounod held in highest esteem.
I'm glad to know that. Of the few Gounod's works I know (Faust, RJ and
Mireille), Romeo is my favorite as well...
Enrique Eskenazi
<GLAU...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Blanc is in the 1959 version! I've heard both and prefer the 1959.
Why? I'm interested in knowing the differences between both performances. I
only know the 1959...
Capa081348
>Date: Sun, 31 October 1999 06:50 PM EST
>Message-id: <17534-38...@storefull-131.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
I seem to remember a film whose climax is the San Francisco earthquake/fire --
is that the one? I believe Caruso was in San Francisco at the time of the
disaster; was that how the opera scene tied into the film?
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, 31 October 1999 06:50 PM EST
>Message-id: <17534-38...@storefull-131.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>This may seem a little far out, but in 1936 there was a Hollywood movie,
>"San Francisco", starring Clark Gable and Jeanette MacDonald in which
>Jeanette M. plays a singer who becomes an opera star.
>
>In the movie the big feature is Gounod's Faust. (Gable does not sing.)
>Jeanette M. and a supporting cast sing several of the principal arias of
>Faust.
>
>They are really beautifully sung and visually quite amazing. The finale
>is as good as any I have ever heard. (IMHO)
>
>If you can get the video of this movie you can judge for yourself. I do
>not know if the
>score of the movie is available on LP, Casettes, CD --or other...
>
>Does anyone else remember the movie itself from 1936 (you'll have to be
>pretty old, too)--or perhaps seen the video --the latter readily
>available at video stores?
>
>Interested in any replies.
>
>Thanks,
>LS
>
What memories! The only movie that starred both Spencer Tracy *and* Clark
Gable!
The film has terrific special effects in recreating the 1906 earthquake.
I remember MacDonald singing "San Francisco" -- (a much better song than that
puerile thing Tony Bennett has made popular). But I don't recall excerpts from
FAUST in that movie.
There is a French comic strip "Tintin" with a wonderful character named La
Castafiore. Her specialty consists of singing "L'air de bijoux". This strip
is drawn so well that you can almost hear La Castafiore warbling the great runs
in that aria.
If the music is on the surface (as Pat Finley) likes to observe -- that surface
is more attractively feminine than those humongous harridans that Herr Richard,
for the most part, parades as putative parcels of pulchritude.
Happy Hallowe'en.
==G/P Dave
Matthew B. Tepper
capa0...@aol.com is reputed to have iterated as follows...
>
>I seem to remember a film whose climax is the San Francisco
>earthquake/fire -- is that the one? I believe Caruso was in San
>Francisco at the time of the disaster; was that how the opera scene tied
>into the film?
I once saw a film called "Hello, Frisco, Hello," but it didn't have any
mention or Caruso, only a (presumably fictional) stuck-up tenor who called
himself "the great Ciambini."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
John Bowker
You're in for a treat! There were two other Gable/Tracy movies besides
SAN FRANCISCO. There weren't more supposedly because Tracy didn't want
to keep getting second billing; another view though was that Gable got
tired of Tracy stealing the films away.
One of the two was BOOM TOWN, about oil-explorers (in Houston) with
Claudette Colbert and Hedy Lamarr.
The other was TEST PILOT with Myrna Loy & Lionel Barrymore.
Those who dine on the song "San Francisco" might also look out Judy
Garland's rendition many years later. She replaced the verse that
MacDonald sang in the movie with one that began:
"I never will forget,
how the great Jeanette..."
and I'm sorry, the rest of it is a bit confused in my mind.
The Gable/ Tracy pairing was terrific in all three movies. I guess the
only chance to see them now is on the Turner Classic Movies channel.
MGM's fim vault, unlike some others, was kept in good climatic shape so,
if it hasn't already happened, maybe Turner will get them re-mastered
and onto DVD.
Jack
keupons
emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl (EM) wrote:
> Continuing my quest of 19th century French music I am considering the
> purchase of Gounod's Faust. My questions are:
> Is it worth the investment and what are the recommended recordings
> (and why)?
>
> Eltjo M.
The best version ? Here in France, the debate is closed. There is
the unanimity about the Emi version. Plasson/ Leech, Van Dam, Studer
and Hampson. And not only because the french music-lovers can
understand at last the singers !
eric
Enrique Eskenazi
<keu...@claranet.fr> wrote:
> The best version ? Here in France, the debate is closed. There is
>the unanimity about the Emi version. Plasson/ Leech, Van Dam, Studer
>and Hampson. And not only because the french music-lovers can
>understand at last the singers !
I'm startled to know that (some) French music-lovers cannot understand the
singers in the Busser's 1930 recording: Vezzani, Berthon, Journet, Musy. I'm
also startled to know about unanimity in France! Well, I guess that here in
Spain we are more undisciplined, bc. unanimity rarely -if once- arises :-)
andre35
known a french debate to be over........Jamais.
no pasaran
andre35
Mark D. Lew
> Ah, my dear Mark, I cannot doubt your sincerity, but I believe if you would
> study FAUST and put out of your mind the impressions derived from too many
> mediocre performances, I think you might find yourself leaning in the
direction
> of regarding it as Gounod's most siginificant contribution to the world of
> opera.
I have studied FAUST, but not recently, so perhaps it's time for a revisit.
To answer a few questions both in this thread and in a private email from
Grandpa Dave: Although my original comment (that I "think FAUST is OK, but
most other Gounod operas are better") was not motivated by snobbery, it was
a gross exaggeration. Of Gounod's 12 operas, there are three I know well
(Romeo, Faust, Mireille), four I know from excerpts (Sapho, Reine de Saba,
Baucis et Philemon, Cinq-Mars), and five that I don't know at all (the
others). Thus, I'm no position to pass judgment on "most" of Gounod's
operas. That's why when responding to GP Dave the next time I focused on
R&J, which I know thoroughly, rather than all the rest.
My first exposure to FAUST was singing in the chorus for a production with
Oakland Opera about ten years ago. It's a distant memory, but I'm pretty
sure it was better than mediocre. That was back when OO was still able to
recruit some really good singers. Bill Lewis, a one-time Wagnerian tenor,
had recently taken over the company as artistic director. He directed the
show and played Valentin, and I'm sure it was through his influence that
Jerome Hines (also semi-retired by then, I think) was persuaded to sing
Mephistopheles. Mr Hines and the others were great, but I still found the
work thoroughly boring.
Over the ensuing years I gradually came to better appreciate FAUST (and
Gounod, generally), but I still find the work incomplete. It has several
nice tunes, but overall I don't find them noticeably better than other
Gounod tunes. There's nothing in FAUST that, for me, matches either "O ma
lyre immortelle" (Sapho) or "Nuit resplendissant" (Cinq-Mars). Closest is
Marguerite's "Il ne revient pas", which I love -- to me that's the one
FAUST number that represents Gounod doing what he does best, and I regret
that there isn't more like it in the opera. I like both "Salut" and the
Thule/Jewel aria very much, but I don't think they're obviously better
than "Leve-toi soleil" or Mireille's aria. (I do like the jewel song better
than Juliette's waltz, which, in addition to being less subtle, is
thoroughly out of character for Juliette.) Siebel's two arias,
Mephistopheles's serenade, the soldiers chorus, the offstage folk chorus in
the first number, and the quartet that everyone loves so much all strike me
as very nice but not really outstanding. All the other choruses (including
that dreadful kermesse) I still think are completely insipid, which is
probably why I had such a bad first impression of the opera. The golden
calf song also does nothing for me. The final trio is terrific, but
unfortunately it is inevitably spoiled by that atrociously banal apotheosis
chorus tagged on to the end. It's such a terrible anticlimax that it rather
ruins the story for me. If that's what heaven is like, I'd rather stay
home.
The love duet is nice, but it runs on too long for me. It's very sweet, for
a while, but by about "O nuit d'amour" I'm starting to think, "Geez, just
kiss her already, you dumb schmuck." The common rap against ROMEO ET
JULIETTE is that it's an interminable string of love duets, but with R&J,
they always leave me longing for more; whereas the FAUST duet, even though
I know it's probably shorter, somehow manages to give an unintended
significance to that "eternelle" that they keep repeating.
The similarity of FAUST and R&J makes them easy to compare. The common
critical opinion is that R&J was an unsuccessful attempt to copy the
success of FAUST, but for me it's just the reverse. To me it feels like
FAUST was a promising practice run, but R&J is the real thing. R&J isn't
perfect either, but it's much closer. I think Gounod's original vision is
better than the standard today: that is, I could do without the jewel song,
and I'd prefer to keep the ballet (especially the choral ensemble at
Juliette's wedding to Paris -- the most beautiful music in the whole opera,
but it's frequently cut!). I could do without that page (his song is
pleasant, but not enough to justify adding an extraneous character) and
some of the ponderous Friar Laurence runs a bit long, but I love all the
duets, which is the heart of the piece, and basically everything for the
title characters (except the jewel song). Also, the whole story of the
warring families, Tybalt, Mercutio, etc, works for me and holds my interest
in a way that all that junk in FAUST, about the drinking buddies and
Valentin going to war, doesn't.
I guess another issue here is that I just don't find the FAUST story all
that interesting. I see in this thread and elsewhere talk about "one of the
greatest stories of all time", or that Mephistopheles is one of the
greatest characters, and so forth. I just don't get that at all. I fail to
understand the great appeal of the Faust legend. Bargaining one's soul to
the devil seems so dry and abstract, as opposed to, say, a pair of
star-crossed lovers. German literature frequently leaves me cold. And all
that ewig-weibliche stuff, which drives Goethe and other German romantics
to such intellectual ecstasy -- what's up with that? I'm much more
interested in real weiben than any eternal redeeming principle.
Gounod further compounds the error by concentrating on the *least*
interesting part of the myth, that little subplot about Marguerite et al.
That sort of makes sense, since what Gounod does best is romantic
sentimentality, but since the Faust story is not really about romantic
sentimentality, it doesn't quite work. The parts of the Faust story that I
do like are the overeducated humorous wit and the religious grandeur. The
wit is captured excellently in the Berlioz version, in both the libretto
and the music, but I don't find it at all in Gounod's version, where even
Mephistopheles seems too serious. I love what Boito does with the
"Arrestati, sei bello" thing, and all his grandiose Catholic visions of
heaven and hell. I wish Gounod would have done more with that.
mdl
Disclaimer: This entire discussion is intended solely as a discussion of my
personal reaction to the Gounod operas. It is not an argument to persuade
others who may feel differently.
Matthew B. Tepper
>
>never known a french debate to be over........Jamais.
>no pasaran
>andre35
Paris, Texas and St. Cloud, Minnesota? ;--)
Eduardo J Baez
two versions would not be the correct means to illuminate you on the
differences between both performances. You will need to hear both for that,
and derive your own judgment. But, at any rate, here goes: Clutytens' way
with the Gounod score is more expansive, stately and unforced in the 1958
(or '59) version than in the 1953, where it is acceptable, but a touch
boring, with a tendency to plod. I think that it is partly that his work in
the latter version is a little more incisive,his execution marginally
livelier. And also, the spread and depth of the stereo engineering (of
which this is an splendid early example) serve Cluytens' reading of the
score particularly well. It is rich and warm. The singers reprise the
roles well, and Blanc, in my opinion, is better than Bothayre. There you
have it. I hope you get to hear both and get to decide for yourself.
Enrique Eskenazi <eske...@teleline.es> wrote in message
news:7vhmfq$4ol$2...@talia.mad.ttd.net...
> In article <7vg8ed$5p8k$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>, "Eduardo J
Baez"
> <GLAU...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> >Blanc is in the 1959 version! I've heard both and prefer the 1959.
>
> Why? I'm interested in knowing the differences between both performances.
I
> only know the 1959...
Anthony Ames
properly, it is one of the most gorgeous tenor lines in opera.
I do think that comparing FAUST/TRISTAN is definitely comparing apples and oranges,
though...
regards,
Anthony
GRNDPADAVE wrote:
> >From: scot...@europa.com (Grant Menzies)
> >Date: Fri, 29 October 1999 10:51 AM EDT
> >Message-id: <3819...@news.nwlink.com>
> >
> >Quality rather than chronology seemed more apposite to the sensual
> >music question. Besides, the score of TRISTAN was completed in 1859,
> >the year FAUST premiered. So they were coexistent, on paper if not on
> >the stage.
> >
> >Grant
> >
> >Grant Menzies
> >
> >*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
> >Il faut choisir
> >*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Wagner's sensualiity I find mainly in the libretto rather than in the music, no
> matter how many times the tenor and soprano bellow their repetitiions of
> "ewig".
>
> A startling aspect of FAUST is to find that it was appreciated -- and
> especially the Garden Scene -- by Berlioz, a severe critic and a composer who
> had written a dramatic cantata on the subject. Berlioz thought Gounod's phrase
> "Quel trouble en mon coeur" especially inspired.
>
> MIREILLE is yet another opera I dealy love, but after any prolonged hiatus
> between hearings, I am always surprised to find how much lovely melody, harmony
> and orchestration there is in Gounod's opera.
>
> "Il faut choisir"? J'ai choisi: Gounod -- bien sūr! toujours! Wagner --
> peut-źtre (de temps-en-temps).
>
> Je suis complčtement en accord avec Monsieur Tom Kaufman (un vrai genilhomme)
> quand il dit: "Chacun ą son goūt".
>
> :-) G/P Dave
andre35
no pasaran
andre35
Karen Mercedes
> GrandPa Dave wrote:
>
> >FAUST is an essential part of any opera collection. Gounod provides, imho,
> the
> >first really sensual love music in opera.
>
> The first really sensual love music in opera I know is that of Monteverdi's
> L'Incoronazione di Poppea'. And it hardly has been surpassed IMO. Of course,
> it is not "romantic" music, but it has all the fire AND sensuality
> imaginable.
In a different vein, I also find Zerlina's "Vedrai, carino" from Mozart's
DON GIOVANNI quite sensual, particularly the coda.
KM
=====
There is delight in singing,
tho' none hear Beside the singer.
- Walter Savage Landor
-----
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
Karen Mercedes
> This may seem a little far out, but in 1936 there was a Hollywood movie,
> "San Francisco", starring Clark Gable and Jeanette MacDonald in which
> Jeanette M. plays a singer who becomes an opera star.
>
> In the movie the big feature is Gounod's Faust. (Gable does not sing.)
> Jeanette M. and a supporting cast sing several of the principal arias of
> Faust.
>
> They are really beautifully sung and visually quite amazing. The finale
> is as good as any I have ever heard. (IMHO)
If you liked those scenes, check out ROSE MARIE with Jeanette and Nelson.
She delivers a very enjoyable "Je veux vivre", and Allan Jones joins her
for a quite well-sung death scene from ROMEO ET JULIETTE.
Of course, the real chuckle of the film is when she sings the
parapet-leaping scene from TOSCA. Some things a light soubrette really
shouldn't do without a net.
Both films are readily available on video (they're both MGM). Also, if
you get Turner Classic Movies, it tends to broadcast most of the Jeanette
MacDonald classics every few months.
Jeanette MacDonald did have operatic aspirations at once time. Sadly, she
suffered all her life from a heart condition that forced her to give up on
the idea of a career in the opera house (she did sing operatic arias in
her recital tours, as well as in several of her films.) Nelson Eddy, of
course, had a successful if truncated opera career, mainly in
Philadelphia, before going to Hollywood. Anyone who thinks he was probably
an operatic lightweight should know that he not only sang Amonasro and
Wolfram, but he debuted the Drum Major in the Met premiere of WOZZECK.
Not exactly lightweight repertoire!
For some well-researched, exhaustive information on all of MacDonald's
(and Eddy's) films and careers, check out:
http://www.dandugan.com/maytime/index.html
Finally, can anyone shed more light on Ramon Novarro's operatic ambitions?
I recently purchased the book HURRELL'S HOLYWOOD PORTRAITS, and it
features a set of photos of Novarro in various operatic/singerly attitudes
and costumes, and talks a bit about his vocal/operatic aspirations. I've
only ever heard him sing in THE CAT AND THE FIDDLE (with MacDonald) - he
had a pleasant tenor voice, but hardly what I'd consider operatic calibre.
Does anyone know if there's some information about his musical background,
training, activities, etc. out there?
Karen Mercedes