A word on Gosta Windbergh
REG
Mike had posted on his site a few weeks ago, from Mozart to Wagner's David
to L'Arlesiana. Grateful though I am for Mike making this available, I don't
quite share as much enjoyment in his singing as others seem to - primarily,
I think, because there's just not much vocal quality. It's all musical
enough, well-pronounced, not shouted and well phrased, but I don't hear any
real distinguishing sound, much less any beauty of voice at all. Not sure if
he sounded different in the house, but it's hard to see anything really
unique in the sound.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
excellent. After the run...he went to Europe and I believe before any/many
performances...he had a heart attack. Well...that's what I heard. I met
him that year...and the year before when he sang in a Mozart opera...don't
remember which at this moment.
I think he looked good on stage...and sounded very good from the house...in
both the Mozart and the Wagner.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LVdJe.685$x43.4...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Niels U. Kristiansen
Hi REG
Last Thursday I saw the the best Meistersinger I have ever seen. Gösta
Winbergh wonderfull, but the real meister was Brendel as Sachs. And of
course Götz Fridrich for directing this masterpice.
best
Niels
Zum 75. Geburtstag von Götz Friedrich am 04.08.2005
Richard Wagner: Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Aufzeichnung aus der Deutschen Oper Berlin 1995.
Inszenierung: Götz Friedrich, Dirigent: Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos,
Mit Wolfgang Brendel (Hans Sachs), Gösta Winbergh (Stolzing) und Eike
Wilm Schulte (Beckmesser).
REG
him live....I am curious, what kind of tone quality comes across from him
in the house? That's the major detriment on the recordings I've been
listening to.
Thanks in advance.
"Niels U. Kristiansen" <niels.u.k...@mail1.sstofanet.dk> wrote in
message news:42F5BA...@mail1.sstofanet.dk...
Ken Meltzer
I really admired the way the Winbergh was able (unlike many others) to
make a successful transition from the lyric to the heldentenor roles.
I thought his Walther, Tristan, and Florestan were all outstanding,
very well sung and acted. And yes, I like the quality of his voice
very much too.
His death was a real loss to the opera world, IMO.
Best,
Ken
Leonard Tillman
>I really admired the way the Winbergh was
> able (unlike many others) to make a
> successful transition from the lyric to the
> heldentenor roles. I thought his Walther,
> Tristan, and Florestan were all outstanding,
> very well sung and acted. And yes, I like the
> quality of his voice very much too.
I appreciated his sound all the more, when his '87 L'elisir with Bonney
was played yesterday on wqxr-fm. He had both charisma and finer vocal
material than most lyric tenors of his era.
>His death was a real loss to the opera world,
>IMO.
There can be no disputing this, expecially given its untimeliness and
loss to his family as well.
We can only imagine what other roles Winbergh might eventually have
sung.
LT
Ken Meltzer
Leonard Tillman wrote:
> I appreciated his sound all the more, when his '87 L'elisir with Bonney
> was played yesterday on wqxr-fm. He had both charisma and finer vocal
> material than most lyric tenors of his era.
I haven't heard that L'elisir in quite some time. I think I'll go back
and give it a listen.
Best,
Ken
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
the Mozart he sounded somewhat elegant and perfectly at ease. So I was
quite surprised when I saw him billed to sing 'Parsifal'...and yet...his
voice also sounded nature in that role. Full sound with no apparent
problems with the top notes or breathing...always sounded at ease with the
vocal line. It really surprised me that he ranged so well in the operatic
literature of two such diverse composers.
I think he was supposed to sing the last 'Florestan' LOC did...Kim Begley(?)
did it instead...and while good for the most part...the upper notes at the
end of 'Gott welch dunkel hier' were a bit pushed. But then the only person
I ever heard sing that with no problems was Jon Vickers. Beethoven is hard
on tenors...in any of his vocal works.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BBmJe.6660$%w.3...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
REG
sopranos in the chorus singing the IXth, with something like 18 bars of
continuous A'! A A friend of mine said that when you listen to the vocal
writing, that's when you realize that the man was losing (and then lost) his
hearing!
Best
"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:poadnRUurtS...@giganews.com...
Leonard Tillman
From: comm...@aol.com (Ken Meltzer)
>Leonard Tillman wrote:
GW is its best feature, IMO. Bonney, while vocally gorgeous, lacks some
of the appeal now shown by such as Netrebko and Gheorghiu in the same
role.
Bernd Weikl is perfect as Belcore, as he was in the
Dvorsky/Popp/Nesterenko set a few years earlier, - and Panerai managed,
effectively, to shade his usually burnished voice, sounding like a
clever and Continental version of Homer Simpson: An interesting
interpretive choice for Dulcamara.
BB, btw, has said she's related to another Bonney - named Billy (The
Kid).
LT
Little Jimmy Olsen
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote
< and Panerai managed,
effectively, to shade his usually burnished voice >
Just what is a "burnished voice" exactly?
Leonard Tillman
Stinky b.:
>Just what is a "burnished voice" exactly?
Exactly what you never had, Stinky. Nor ever will.
LT
Little Jimmy Olsen
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17916-42F...@storefull-3338.bay.webtv.net...
Of course. But please do tell us what a "burnished voice" is. If it is just
one of those OperaLite terms that has no real meaning we will understand and
just move on. So, what is it?
Leonard Tillman
>please do tell us what a "burnished voice" is.
Same as it was when you asked previously: Exactly what you never had
and never will, Stinky.
>"OperaLite is just one of my inane bollcrap
>terms that have no real meaning.
Of course, since you, likewise, have no real meaning, eh, Stinky?
Please answer at the soonest. Or not.
LT
Little Jimmy Olsen
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17916-42F...@storefull-3338.bay.webtv.net...
>
>>please do tell us what a "burnished voice" is.
>
> Same as it was when you asked previously: Exactly what you never had
> and never will, Stinky.
>
That's fine, Leonard. Being unable to explain the meaning of a word that you
used so authoritatively is not a criminal offense. It's just shallow. Carry
on.
Leonard Tillman
>That's fine, Leonard, that you know I'm an >a-hole!
It's a shared knowledge, Stink, so I can't take credit for that.
>Being unable to admit that my ridiculous slurs >to you, Mr. T, my
Lovegod, are without
> meaning - as am I - is part
>of the "boll-tone mystink"
Ordinarily, Stinky, that would be "m-y-s-t-i-q-u-e", - but in your
case....you know....
>My shaloowness[sicK] is a criminal offense.
Indeed, Stinky, you're just a shallow criminal, but _perhaps_ after your
"Nups" and the accompanying connubial bliss with handlefutz, you'll
mature, going on to become a "deep criminal". eh, Stinky?
LT
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
everyone...I'd forgotten the gals turning red in the face during
performances of 'die Neunte'.
But oh...the Divine results!
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:proJe.6666$%w.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Stephen Jay-Taylor
Walther it was actually funny to listen to the pair of them. In short order
he became a Mozart/Donizetti tenor of great distinction, recording a really
lovely "L'Elisir" under Ferro, and Muti's "Don Pasquale". The next time I
heard him live was as Idomeneo, in Madrid, with Caballé as Elettra, and had
less trouble singing "Fuor del Mar " in the original killer version than
anybody I've encountered live or on disc before or since. At that point -
early 90s - I thought his voice the perfect jugenddramatische instrument,
poised, just as Wunderlich's was when he died, to make the transition to
sterner stuff. It had a slightly reedy quality, but was flawless in
execution, and had real heft in the theatre.
Four years later he sang Lohengrin at Covent Garden, with Mattila as Elsa,
under Gergiev, and simply caused a sensation : bright, ringing,
evenly-produced and tireless, the man's voice had reached its peak in his
later forties. There is a disc of long extracts from "Lohengrin" recorded by
Swedish CBS/Sony with Helena Döse as Elsa from this time which provides the
finest Wagner tenor singing on disc since the 1950s. I last heard him as Don
José at the Met, with Uria-Monzon, in Zeffirelli's dreadful production, at
which point he still sounded mellifluous, but with powerfully heroic edge,
and sang the most extraordinary Flower Song of my experience, taking the
final climb to the B-flat as a continuous diminuendo, arriving at an
exquisitely floated and sustained top note of magical beauty and
wistfulness, adumbrating José's sorry fate in the process.
He was contracted to sing Siegfried in the concerts and discs of the
Decca/Dohnanyi/Cleveland "Ring" - abandoned after the less-than-rapturously
received "Walküre" - and would, I am quite sure, have become the Tristan of
dreams, what he was clearly working towards all along. His death was a
terrible loss, and I doubt Heppner would have had the career he has if
Winbergh had lived.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Jon E. Szostak, Sr. wrote:
> His last series of completed performances were in LOC's 'Parsifal'...he was
> excellent. After the run...he went to Europe and I believe before any/many
> performances...he had a heart attack. Well...that's what I heard. I met
> him that year...and the year before when he sang in a Mozart opera...don't
> remember which at this moment.
>
> I think he looked good on stage...and sounded very good from the house...in
> both the Mozart and the Wagner.
He did Lohengrin with Los Angeles Opera, the season before
his death. I liked him very much - he certainly LOOKED the
dashing knight, and I thought sang well, too.
The only other time I heard Lohengrin "live" was a
performance the San Francisco brought here, many years ago,
with Sandor Konya as the Lohengrin. I don't even remember
how I felt about Konya's singing, but he looked as though he
were so obviously enamoured of himself that he wasn't aware
anyone else onstage existed. Winberg was a consumate actor
(actually, one would HAVE to be, to make Lohengrin anything
but a pompous, self-satisfied ass), so perhaps my assessment
of Konya was a bit unfair.
alanwa...@aol.com
Sighs...well 19 posts in all as this is written, thanks for at least
giving a mention to the conductor, a somewhat venerable and forgotten
old chap these days - Rafael Fruhbeck of Burgos I think. Does he get
an okay in this piece?
Brilliant musician in all sorts of things but cannot say about his
Wagner.
Dare I ask if his orchestra get on okay? Sorry to interrupt.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
wkas...@comcast.net
REG wrote:
> It's interesting that both you and Jon have such enthusiastic impressions of
> him live....I am curious, what kind of tone quality comes across from him
> in the house? That's the major detriment on the recordings I've been
> listening to.
He may have sounded different in the house than on recordings, but to
be honest, I think that we're well into the realm of the subjective
with respect to Winbergh's tonal quality. Like Ken, I find it very
attractive, particularly in some of the heavier repertoire that he took
on later in his career. That tone quality, combined with the seeming
lack of effort that always marks his singing, and his "musicality" are
what set him apart for me. He also possessed a level of vocal control
that many tenors lack; he was among the very, very few tenors capable
of singing the B-flat at the end of Jose's "Flower Song" softly, as
written (as he did in a broadcast Met performance a year or two before
his death).
Bill
wkas...@comcast.net
Ken Meltzer wrote:
> I haven't heard that L'elisir in quite some time. I think I'll go back
> and give it a listen.
It's not among the better Elisirs around, nor is it among Winbergh's
best recordings. Nemorino needs, among other things, a vocal tone that
"smiles", and that's one feature that I've always found lacking in
Winbergh's singing.
The rest of the cast is nothing special, either. I yield to no one in
my worship of Barbara Bonney, but at that point in her career, her tone
was really too light even for Adina, and it was never a particularly
Italianate sound. Weikl is, as usual, ugly of tone and prosaic of
manner, leaving the veteran Panerai to supply whatever Italianita there
is on the recording. The only reason I've kept the set around is
because I'm a Bonney and Winbergh completist.
Bill
Ken Meltzer
Bill-
I'm of two minds about Weikl. I enjoy a lot of his work in German
opera, particularly in the early years. OTOH, I do find his work in
Italian opera very stiff, although not as unattractive tonally as do
you.
Best,
Ken
Leonard Tillman
Ken Meltzer wrote:
>I'm of two minds about Weikl. I enjoy a lot of
> his work in German opera, particularly in the
> early years. OTOH, I do find his work in
> Italian opera very stiff, although not as
> unattractive tonally as do you.
He's not "Italianate", yet, for an Austrian, managed quite nicely as not
only Belcore, but Rigoletto, in his commercial recording.
LT
Little Jimmy Olsen
Leonard Tillman
His voice is.
LT
Mike Richter
> He was contracted to sing Siegfried in the concerts and discs of the
> Decca/Dohnanyi/Cleveland "Ring" - abandoned after the less-than-rapturously
> received "Walküre" - and would, I am quite sure, have become the Tristan of
> dreams, what he was clearly working towards all along. His death was a
> terrible loss, and I doubt Heppner would have had the career he has if
> Winbergh had lived.
He did sing Tristan and while it was not yet a fully developed
interpretation, he maintained his characteristic sound and strength
throughout. He was scheduled for his first Siegfried in Zurich but
cancelled just before rehearsals were to begin. In the event, he passed
away before the first performance of the run.
Ken Meltzer
Mike Richter wrote:
> He did sing Tristan and while it was not yet a fully developed
> interpretation, he maintained his characteristic sound and strength
> throughout. He was scheduled for his first Siegfried in Zurich but
> cancelled just before rehearsals were to begin. In the event, he passed
> away before the first performance of the run.
>
> Mike
I agree with Mike that there is a lot to enjoy in that Tristan. Maybe
it isn't the final word in interpretation, but Winbergh does sing
beautifully, dramatically, and with remarkable stamina. Someone else
mentioned Winbergh's Swedish Sony Classical Wagner recital. That is
well worth hearing, as is a companion CD of other opera arias.
Best,
Ken
Little Jimmy Olsen
> >is he burnished?
>
> His voice is.
>
Really? What does that mean exactly?
Leonard Tillman
>Really? What does that mean exactly?
"Really", or "that"?
LT
Little Jimmy Olsen
I asked you for your meaning of "burnished" as applied to the human voice.
You cannot answer the question. Take away your cliches and all that remains
is Tillmanese, a language known only to yourself.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
interested. I thought him a most gifted artist...and was greatly moved by
his portrayal of 'Parsifal' at LOC...even in the crap production he had to
endure. I remember Thielemann conducted...and I loved the orchestral and
singing performances.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Mike Richter" <mric...@cpl.net> wrote in message
news:dd6p2d$1h4o$1...@madmax.keyway.net...
Leonard Tillman
>I asked you for your meaning
Why _my_ meaning, specifically, Stinky? According to the Ancients,
"meaning" is shared by all.
>You cannot answer the question.
No, Stinky, I choose not to answer the question, as its answer is known
already to all - even you, though you coyly pretend otherwise, but I'm
not buying, Stinky..
>Take away my cliches
Like "OperaLIte", eh, Stinky?
>and all that remains is nada.
At most, Stinky.
LT
wkas...@comcast.net
Ken Meltzer wrote:
> Someone else
> mentioned Winbergh's Swedish Sony Classical Wagner recital. That is
> well worth hearing, as is a companion CD of other opera arias.
There's also a third Swedish Sony CD, of duets with Hakan Hagegard,
also recommended. And I don't know if it's still available, but for a
while Berkshire had copies of Winbergh's Strauss lieder CD on
Nightingale - also recommended, particularly since there are so few
really good tenor recordings of these songs.
Bill
wkas...@comcast.net
Leonard Tillman wrote:
> I choose not to answer the question, as its answer is known
> already to all -
Apparently not. Since you are obviously better informed than the rest
of us, perhaps you (or one of those other so-called "betters") would
provide a working definition for "burnished" when used to describe a
voice?
Bill
Leonard Tillman
Kazzy, quoting me:
>the answer is known already to all -
>Apparently not.
Apparently yes, kazzy. I don't say "definitely", making allowance for
the ignorant and the those who pretend ignorance solely to argue.
Which group might you find yourself in, btw?
>Since you are obviously better informed than
> the rest of us,
Thank you, but it's just _some_ of you, really, - not literally "the
rest of you/us".
But I do appreciate it.
LT
Little Jimmy Olsen
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11043-42F...@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
>
>
>>the answer is known already to all -
>
>>Apparently not.
>
> Apparently yes, kazzy. I don't say "definitely", making allowance for
> the ignorant and the those who pretend ignorance solely to argue.
>
If that is true - that the meaning of "burnished voice" is known to all
except the ignorant - perhaps some of those knowledgeable posters will step
forward and tell us what it means.
That way, Tillman can try to get his nuts out of the vise by declaring, "Yes
yes! That's it! That's what I meant!"
Until then, I remain content in the belief that it is a word that has no
objective value in describing vocal qualities, but one that is quite useful
to Tillman whose impoverished descriptive powers leave him gasping for le
mote juste in the faint hope of appearing to be anything more than an
OperaLiteWeight.
Jeffrey Meyer
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11043-42F...@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
on 'burnished'. Some type of visual metaphor would
suffice.
IMO, LJOs and Bills requests for clarification are totally fair.
--
Jeffrey
Mike Richter
> interested. I thought him a most gifted artist...and was greatly moved by
> his portrayal of 'Parsifal' at LOC...even in the crap production he had to
> endure. I remember Thielemann conducted...and I loved the orchestral and
> singing performances.
You should have little trouble locating a tape of the 9 October 2000
broadcast from Vienna under Bychkov with Waltraud Meier.
Leonard Tillman
StinkyShorts Bollmann, trying to muddle:
>duhh, the meaning of "burnished voice" is
> known to all except the ignorant
Since you, Stinky, are exacly that, it's your problem. Deal with it.
>My Lovegod Mr.Tillman can try to get his nuts
> out of my mouth, but I like the flavor too
> much to let go. Slurpp.
Whoa,
You're fantasizing again, Stinky - I already decllined your offer of
fellating my dog amd me.
So eat your nonexistent heart out.
>Yes yes! That's it! That's what I meant!
_As I just indicated_, Stinky! Now close your mouth and stop
salivating.
>I remain content in the belief that it is a word
>that has no objective value in describing vocal
>qualities
Total Boll-shit, Stinky. Your "objective value" "debates" are
consistently, like yourself, a load of steaming crap.
>My impoverished descriptive powers and my
> stupidity leave me no choice but to gasp and
> grasp at any chance to make a greater
> asshole of myself, lamely "debating" Mr. T,
> and my other countless betters.
>Moreover, I am the OperaLiteWeight here.
But, to compensate, Stink, you are Shit-Heavy.
At least you'll always have that.
>Yes, I am.
Yes, you am.
LT
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
the subject is tenor Gosta Windberg. Why SHOULD there be
any mention of a conductor in the ensuing discusssion?
Leonard Tillman
>Leonard, I'd like to chip in here by asking for
> your take on 'burnished'. Some type of visual
> metaphor would suffice.
Okay since you put it that way, rather than the absurd and clearly
Bollmanurian attempt at impugning my post:
You're correct - it was a visual metaphor to begin with.
I meant a bright-sounding (or "burnished", as in "shining") - as
opposed to covered, dark, heavy - tone,
eg, Stracciari or Merrill (or the young Panerai), compared with such as
Apollo Granforte or Warren. Visual metaphor, not some psychotic
idiotic, and arbitrary boll/kaz insistence on "objectivity", is the
idea, Jeff, when discussing such impressions
>IMO, LJOs and Bills requests for clarification
> are totally fair.
In their cases, not even infinitessimally fair, given their uncivil
posting-record with me and others.
However, your question was stated inoffensively, and I answered it
thusly,
LT
Jeffrey Meyer
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11043-42F...@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
>
> > your take on 'burnished'. Some type of visual
> > metaphor would suffice.
>
> Okay since you put it that way, rather than the absurd and clearly
> Bollmanurian attempt at impugning my post:
>
> You're correct - it was a visual metaphor to begin with.
>
> I meant a bright-sounding (or "burnished", as in "shining") - as
> opposed to covered, dark, heavy - tone,
> eg, Stracciari or Merrill (or the young Panerai), compared with such as
> Apollo Granforte or Warren. Visual metaphor, not some psychotic
> idiotic, and arbitrary boll/kaz insistence on "objectivity", is the
> idea, Jeff, when discussing such impressions
>
Someone once compared Jussis silver to Carusos golden sound - not
in terms of relative value, rather in terms of colour. That's where
I first read of visual metaphor - a most descriptive tool.
--
Jeffrey
Leonard Tillman
>"You're correct - it was a visual metaphor to
> begin with.
>" I meant a bright-sounding (or "burnished",
> as in "shining") - as opposed to covered, dark,
> heavy - tone, eg, Stracciari or Merrill (or the
> young Panerai), compared with such as
> Apollo Granforte or Warren. Visual metaphor,
> not some psychotic idiotic, and arbitrary
> boll/kaz insistence on "objectivity", is the idea,
> Jeff, when discussing such impressions "
>Someone once compared Jussis silver to
> Carusos golden sound - not in terms of
>relative value, rather in terms of colour.
I've seen that and similar references, and they're correct, according to
my and many others' impressions.
>That's where I first read of visual metaphor - a
> most descriptive tool.
Yes, - and other methods of description have their value to some, but
are neither better nor worse than visual metaphors or recognizable
similes, in conveying the idea to a listener or reader. It's, of
course, most effective, as well as most enjoyable to read -
for those of us who've heard the singers under discussion, whether in
person or on records.
--
>Jeffrey
LT
donpaolo
"bronzelike" sound, ideally with squillo (Caruso, DelMonaco, Pertile,
Tucker, Labo) & even lacking squillo (PD). These are contrasted to the
"golden"/"silvery" brighter voices of Martinelli, Lauri-Volpi, Corelli,
Bjoerling.
DonPaolo
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11043-42F...@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
david...@aol.com
by resorting to precious material substances. Flagstad was a diamond,
Traubel a ruby. Caruso's voice was gold, Bjoerling's silver. More
notoriously, comparing Mme. Callas to Mme. Tebaldi was like comparing
champagne to Coca Cola.
We all use a mixture of figurative and literal language all day long
without giving it a thought, at least until a breakdown in
communication takes place. Such breakdowns generally occur when Person
A unexpectedly takes Person B's figurative speech literally. Once
when Edith Bunker embarked on the project of tying Archie's bowling
shoes, she managed to exasperate Archie by asking whether he'd prefer
for her to tie them over or under. Visibly irritated, Archie
responded, "What difference does it make?" Now any of us
apprehending this rhetorical question as Archie intended would realize
that it made no difference to him whatsoever, but, taking Archie's
question literally, Edith began to explain the difference in pains
taking detail, further delaying the project of tying Archie's bowling
shoes and further exasperating Archie.
Even many terms that are subject to strict formal definition, terms
that we consider to be "objective terms," originated as metaphors,
including many terms routinely used by mathematicians and physicists.
Musicians refer to a phenomenon known as line, but the line is only
metaphorically a line. You can draw a line on paper or draw a line in
the sand, but you can't make a line in vibrating sound.
Nevertheless, the metaphor is far from arbitrary and highly suggestive.
In music, a succession of notes forms a "line" when each note in
the succession purposefully follows the other forming a single
perceptible unidirectional shape. Similarly, physicists working on
string theory don't literally study strings. They only study
"strings." We resort to the physical material plane in minting
metaphors for obvious reasons. The musician and physicist count on our
experience of material reality in resorting to the figures line and
string.
Of course, some physical materials are more rare than others and some
are worth more money than others for that very reason. Our metaphors
describing Flagstad, Traubel, et al depend on the fact that human
beings place a higher cash value on some material substances than
others. Strings may be quotidian objects, but diamonds, rubies, gold,
and silver are worth money. In comparing Traubel to Flagstad or
Bjoerling to Caruso, our metaphors suggest that the singer to emerge
later was worth less than his or her predecessor. Traubel may be a
gem, but she's only a ruby. Bjoerling's voice may be silver, but
Caruso had already set the gold standard.
These metaphors don't so much refer to distinctive qualities of voice
as to a lowering of the gold standard, which is most obvious from the
comparison of Callas to Tebaldi. If we are to trust Mme. Callas's
metaphor, the standard for the beverage market has sunk pretty low:
Mme. Tebaldi is worth no more than Coca Cola. In short, metaphors of
this kind depend not so much on qualities of the material plane as on
crass materialism.
-david gable
capa0...@aol.com
=====================
Nice post, David, but I would pick one nit.
"Only" a ruby?
Ruby (the red variety of corundum, the same mineral from which
sapphires are produced) is the rarest of all gemstones. A good-sized
ruby will generally be more costly than a similar-sized diamond {or
emerald or whatever} of the same quality.
Pat
REG
good day still as having a burnished sound, although it's hardly light in
sound.
"donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:ramdnbol7uu...@rcn.net...
REG
What is mostly being talked about is ekphrasis. Your comment (and I am not
being critical at all) is more about using terms in connection with a kind
of relative rank order, but I think that is one step away from the initial
question.
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123541134.9...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
REG
REG, politically incorrect once again.
<capa0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123543515.0...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
capa0...@aol.com
========================
A small voice.
I rented a burnished one room apartment during my junior year in
college. I could barely turn around without bumping into the
furniture.
Pat
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
capa0...@aol.com wrote:
I never COULD understand why a diamond is supposed to be so
special! (I'll choose rubies or emeralds over diamonds any
day - or sapphires or opals.)
>
> Pat
>
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
david...@aol.com wrote:
> There used to be a vogue for making metaphorical comparisons of singers
> by resorting to precious material substances. Flagstad was a diamond,
> Traubel a ruby. Caruso's voice was gold, Bjoerling's silver. More
> notoriously, comparing Mme. Callas to Mme. Tebaldi was like comparing
> champagne to Coca Cola.
Which was which? I concede that Callas was a superb artist,
and certainly helped spark the renaissance of Bel Canto
opera, but Tebaldi was an equally fine artist in her own
métier, and IMO had by far the more beautiful voice.
(Callas may have had a fine instrument when she was a young
singer, but her technique was never anywhere near the equal
of Tebaldi's, and it began to show in the voice quite early
on.)
david...@aol.com
Miss VogtGamble: the statement comparing Callas to Tebaldi as
champagne to Coca Cola was made by Callas herself. For the purposes of
my little discussion, it hardly matters which was which just so long as
one was one and the other the other.
I disagree with you, however. I do not consider Tebaldi a great artist
by any stretch of the imagination. Her singing exhibits considerable
warmth and apparently she had a very likeable personality that came
across in the theatre. She also had a gorgeous voice, but she also had
a mediocre sense of pitch and phrasing. She certainly never exhibited
anything like the artistry of a Jose Van Dam. I will, of course, be
attacked for expressing this opinion by those whose sense of pitch is
not good enough to notice how poorlyTebaldi sang in tune: she simply
did not have a truly great ear. (At least a couple of her admirers at
rmcr are honest enough to admit that her intonation was suspect, and I
don't just mean her short top. And of course she wasn't entirely
devoid of a sense of pitch. No entirely tone deaf person could ever
have a career as a singer. But among the celebrated professional
singers of the past century, Tebaldi had one of the more mediocre
ears.)
-david gable
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Weren't you thinking of 'furnished' Pat?
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<capa0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123545771.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Traubel was worth her weight in rubies and opals...forget the diamonds.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dd8u9...@news1.newsguy.com...
capa0...@aol.com
manner.
Weren't you thinking of 'furnished' Pat?
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
==========
You know, Jon, I looked it up and you're exactly right.
To burnish, it seems, means to polish.
It was foolish of me to try to slip a 'polish' joke past a guy named
Szostak.
Best,
Pat
david...@aol.com
>This part of the discussion is different than the concept of 'burnished'.
Yes, it is, REG. I was really writing in response to the poster who
mentioned the old gold and silver comparison of Caruso to Bjoerling and
going off on a tangent--how's that for a metaphor borrowed from
geometry?--because, for some insane reason, the relationship of
figurative to literal language and the whole question of usage
fascinates the hell out of me. I love the fact, for example, that
people routinely use the word "literally" metaphorically. "I was so
surprised my jaw literally fell to the floor." "I was so scared I
literally wet my pants" (spoken when you didn't wet your pants). "She
was so mad I literally thought she was going to have a cow." People
uttering such things don't in fact mean what they say literally. Nor
do they use the term metaphorically because they don't know what it
means. They use it because of its rhetorical force, although the force
actually derives from the literal meaning. When you use "literally"
metaphorically, you mean something like "I really mean what I'm saying.
I'm not exaggerating or joking." The speaker means it every bit as
much as he would if he were speaking literally although he isn't.
With the metaphorical use of "literally," one connotation of the
term ("I really mean what I'm saying") and its rhetorical power are
preserved, but not the literal meaning.
Then again, the term literal itself originated as a metaphor:
"Literally" originally meant respecting "the letter" of the law rather
than its "spirit," and both letter and spirit are metaphors.
Spirit is a metaphor unless you believe the law is a living breathing
thing. Attorneys, judges, legislators, and historians tell us it is,
but, again, they're speaking figuratively.
Usage has laws of its own that neither the rules of grammar nor
dictionary definitions can account for. Neither grammar nor the
definition of the words accounts for how a rhetorical question like
Archie Bunker's "What's the difference?" works. The question is in
fact grammatical and we do have to understand the meaning of the words
for the question to work, but how it works is a question of rhetoric
and usage, neither of which is arbitrary.
How about the differences among these three pronunciations of a single
sentence where different words are pronounced more forcefully and with
the pitch raised:
John said that to MARY?????? [He had the nerve to say that to her of
all people?]
John said THAT to Mary?????? [I thought the use of such language was
inappropriate in front of Mary.]
JOHN said that to Mary????? [I thought somebody else said it.]
-david gable
La Donna Mobile
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
Me too. My engagement ring is ruby; some people say that that's all
wrong, but I have met a few other people with ruby engagement rings, and
we agree that they look so much nicer than the more usual ones.
(Although I do have tiny diamonds embedded in the band)
>>
>> Pat
>>
>
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
alci...@aol.com
Opals are considered bad luck to receive or buy for yourself, unless
they are
your birthstone, as they are mine (hint hint). Actually, I was told
that this was a belief started by the diamond industry to discourage
people from buying them in lieu of diamonds, but I have always liked it.
alci...@aol.com
I have this, and have been listening to it as a result of this thread.
Though I would prefer a more dynamic variety in some of the songs, and
interpretively there
are no surprises, it's a strong, virile lyric sound.
Jeffrey Meyer
> by resorting to precious material substances. Flagstad was a diamond,
> Traubel a ruby. Caruso's voice was gold, Bjoerling's silver. More
> notoriously, comparing Mme. Callas to Mme. Tebaldi was like comparing
> champagne to Coca Cola.
>
> We all use a mixture of figurative and literal language all day long
> without giving it a thought, at least until a breakdown in
> communication takes place. Such breakdowns generally occur when Person
> A unexpectedly takes Person B's figurative speech literally. Once
> when Edith Bunker embarked on the project of tying Archie's bowling
> shoes, she managed to exasperate Archie by asking whether he'd prefer
> for her to tie them over or under. Visibly irritated, Archie
> responded, "What difference does it make?" Now any of us
> apprehending this rhetorical question as Archie intended would realize
> that it made no difference to him whatsoever, but, taking Archie's
> question literally, Edith began to explain the difference in pains
> taking detail, further delaying the project of tying Archie's bowling
> shoes and further exasperating Archie.
>
> Even many terms that are subject to strict formal definition, terms
> that we consider to be "objective terms," originated as metaphors,
> including many terms routinely used by mathematicians and physicists.
> Musicians refer to a phenomenon known as line, but the line is only
> metaphorically a line. You can draw a line on paper or draw a line in
> the sand, but you can't make a line in vibrating sound.
I don't suppose an oscilloscope cuts it, hm, as it's only a visual
representation thereof?
Solid post, Dave.
--
Jeffrey
Jeffrey Meyer
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dd8u9...@news1.newsguy.com...
>
>
Agree.
--
Jeffrey, who hails from De Beers country.
Jeffrey Meyer
<capa0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123543515.0...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
So, would Verdi be an emerald?
--
Jeffrey
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
david...@aol.com wrote:
> devoid of a sense of pitch. No entirely tone deaf person could ever
> have a career as a singer. But among the celebrated professional
> singers of the past century, Tebaldi had one of the more mediocre
> ears.)
"Ear" I can't argue - When Tebaldi was in her prime, I was
an aspring opera singer who heard only the excellent
technique and the lush sound (and she was never as glaringly
off-pitch as Schnaut). However, Callas was never all that
precise in her pitch, either (In fact, some of her
recordings have a few rather noticeable off-key moments.)
I had no intention of sparking a rabid either/or debate
about the two singers. I have come to appreciate Callas
(although in my younger days it was Tebaldi, no contest),
but they were two different singers, each with her own
strengths and weaknesses - why must one choose between them?
(Wherever it originated, I consider the
champagne/Coca-Cola comment unwarranted.)
>
> -david gable
>
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Jon E. Szostak, Sr. wrote:
> Evelyn: I tried sending you an email in answer to an earlier post...but got
> a message stating that I had fill-in a request form...or something of the
> sort.
>
> When I clicked on the supplied link...all I got was-
> ---------------------
> ERROR: Unable to process Allowed Sender request.
>
> We're sorry. Because your original message to the recipient is
> no longer available, we cannot process this Allowed Sender request. Your
> message may have expired, or the recipient may have accepted or deleted it.
<snip>
> Does this mean you aren't accepting emails? Or just mine in particular?
I monitor my "suspect E-mail" before I delete it, so I'm
sure I saw your message, even though I may not have replied
to it. (I thought I had you in my "address book", but since
Earthlink has "improved" that function so it adds any
address I write to, I have to clean it out every once in a
while, and must have inadvertently removed your name.)
Sorry - I'll make sure you get added again.
Evelyn
>
Geoffrey Riggs
Leonard Tillman wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
I tend to think of something like polished mahagony when I use
"burnished" -- which isn't necessarily bright. Be that as it may, I
agree with Leonard Tillman's take on what makes Panerai's Dulcamara so
intriguing. Another fine singer today who presents Dulcamara in a
similar manner, IMO, is the very talented Erwin Schrott.
Best,
Geoffrey Riggs
david...@aol.com
>So, would Verdi be an emerald?
I don't ,know, but I once saw a cartoon in the New Yorker that showed a
morose and dejected seeming Verdi moping in the corner. "He's been
like that ever since he found out his name in English is Joe Green."
-david gable
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Touché monsieur Pussycat!
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<capa0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123558623....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
capa0...@aol.com
No, but he was jaded, I hear, after the first couple of weekends with
La Strepponi.
Mr Gem-utlicheit
Jeffrey Meyer
<capa0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123617015.0...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
*groan*
--
Jeffrey
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42F8CD65...@earthlink.net...
Jeffrey Meyer
> Interesting; but my take on the "burnished" concept is that of a darker,
> "bronzelike" sound, ideally with squillo (Caruso, DelMonaco, Pertile,
> Tucker, Labo) & even lacking squillo (PD). These are contrasted to the
> "golden"/"silvery" brighter voices of Martinelli, Lauri-Volpi, Corelli,
> Bjoerling.
>
> DonPaolo
>
>
came to mind.
--
Jeffrey
donpaolo
DonP.
"Jeffrey Meyer" <mer...@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:ddckep$dt$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
Leonard Tillman
>Interesting; but my take on the "burnished"
> concept is that of a darker, "bronzelike"
> sound, ideally with squillo (Caruso,
> DelMonaco, Pertile, Tucker, Labo) & even
> lacking squillo (PD).
To me, "burnished" tone almost always goes with the presence of squillo.
>These are contrasted to the "golden"/"silvery"
> brighter voices of Martinelli, Lauri-Volpi,
> Corelli, Bjoerling.
I consider these to burnished, as well, Martinelli a bit less than the
latter three.
>DonPaolo
LT
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11043-42F...@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
I wrote:
"You're correct - it was a visual metaphor to begin with.
" I meant a bright-sounding (or "burnished", as in "shining") - as
opposed to covered, dark, heavy - tone, eg, Stracciari or Merrill (or
the young Panerai), compared with such as
Apollo Granforte or Warren. Visual metaphor, not some psychotic idiotic,
and arbitrary boll/kaz insistence on "objectivity", is the idea, Jeff,
when discussing such impressions "
>Someone once compared Jussis silver to
> Carusos golden sound - not in terms of
>relative value, rather in terms of colour.
"I've seen that and similar references, and they're correct, according
to my and many others' impressions.
>That's where I first read of visual metaphor - a
> most descriptive tool.
"Yes, - and other methods of description have their value to some, but
are neither better nor worse than visual metaphors or recognizable
similes, in conveying the idea to a listener or reader. It's, of course,
most effective, as well as most enjoyable to read -
for those of us who've heard the singers under discussion, whether
in person or on records. "
--
>Jeffrey
LT
Geoffrey Riggs
Little Jimmy Olsen wrote:
>
> "Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:17916-42F...@storefull-3338.bay.webtv.net...
> >
> > Stinky b.:
> >
> >>Just what is a "burnished voice" exactly?
> >
> > Exactly what you never had, Stinky. Nor ever will.
> >
> > LT
> >
>
> Of course. But please do tell us what a "burnished voice" is. If it is just<SNIP>
Leonard Tillman
>I tend to think of something like polished
> mahagony when I use "burnished" but now
> prefer <SNIP>, my new word-fave.
To each his own, Snippo.
LT
capa0...@aol.com
came to mind.
--
Jeffrey
Yes, or a dark gold.
Despite my silliness about the 'burnished apartment' earlier, and its
golden/coppery meaning, burnished is a word with a 'sterling' history.
Shakespeare used it in the most poetical passage of the play which
some have argued, contains his most superb verbal imagery. In the last
of his great tragedies, Shakespeare's every line assails our senses as
Enobarbus describes Cleopatra's majestic passage down the Nile:
Enobarbus :
I will tell you.
The barge she sat in, like a burnish'd throne,
Burn'd on the water; the poop was beaten gold, 224
Purple the sails, and so perfumed, that
The winds were love-sick with them, the oars were silver,
Which to the tune of flutes kept stroke, and made
The water which they beat to follow faster, 228
As amorous of their strokes. For her own person,
It beggar'd all description; she did lie
In her pavilion,-cloth-of-gold of tissue,-
O'er-picturing that Venus where we see 232
The fancy outwork nature; on each side her
Stood pretty-dimpled boys, like smiling Cupids,
With divers-colour'd fans, whose wind did seem
To glow the delicate cheeks which they did cool, 236
And what they undid did.
Agrippa: O! rare for Antony.
Enobarbus:
. Her gentlewomen, like the Nereides,
So many mermaids, tended her i' the eyes, 240
And made their bends adornings; at the helm
A seeming mermaid steers; the silken tackle
Swell with the touches of those flower-soft hands,
That yarely frame the office. From the barge 244
A strange invisible perfume hits the sense
Of the adjacent wharfs. The city cast
Her people out upon her, and Antony,
Enthron'd i' the market-place, did sit alone, 248
Whistling to the air; which, but for vacancy,
Had gone to gaze on Cleopatra too
And made a gap in nature.
Agrippa: Rare Egyptian!
Anthony and Cleopatra, Act II Scene II
Pat (I'm almost certain that it's out of copyright) Finley
David Melnick
Poor Enobarb: Those systolic numbers are running awfully
high. Or could they even be heart rate!
;-)
dav
Geoffrey Riggs
Little Jimmy Olsen wrote:
>
> "Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote
>
> > He's not "Italianate", >
>
> But is he burni <SNIP>
I tend to think of something like polished mahagony when I use
Geoffrey Riggs
Leonard Tillman wrote:
>
> Snippo Riggso declares: <SNIP>
I tend to think of something like polished mahagony when I use
Leonard Tillman
>But is he burni <SNIP>
Now that you mention it, I haven't heard a really good burnisnipped tone
in ages.
LT
Leonard Tillman
Snippo Riggso declares:
><SNIP>
As do I.
>I tend to think of something like polished
> mahagony when I use "burnished" -- which
> isn't necessarily bright.
Wtth enough polishing, it's bound to attain that quality, sooner or
later.
>Be that as it may, I agree with Leonard
> Tillman's take on what makes Panerai's
> Dulcamara so intriguing. Another fine singer
> today who presents Dulcamara in a similar
> manner, IMO, is the very talented Erwin
> Schrott.
Yes, a star-to-be, with a vocal quality reminiscent of the young
Raimondi.
LT
donpaolo
DonPaolo
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28825-42F...@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
Leonard Tillman
>Is that like a cr-r-r-a-a-a-cked note???
The same, - but with fifty per cent more sq-q-q-i-i-l-l-lo!!!
>DonPaolo
LT
- Avoiding burnsnipped tones, in all fachs.
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28825-42F...@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
>But is he burni <SNIP>
"Now that you mention it, I haven't heard a really good burnisnipped
tone in ages.
LT"
LT