Blatant rip-offs of other music
Mr M N Raines
I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
Schumann's 4th symphony.
Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
Please post or e-mail them.
Thanks
--
-Matt Raines
e-mail : M.N.R...@warwick.ac.uk
URL : http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~fruml/
Tel : +44 (0)1203 692092 (Room 101)
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
The 963 Classical Hour Thursdays 11am 106.1 FM
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
W963 FM - University Radio Warwick
Broadcasting to Coventry, Kenilworth and beyond
W. Scott Kardel
Well,
I always felt that Leonard Rosenmans's main theme to Star Trek IV was VERY MUCH like his own
theme to The Lord of the Rings. If ripping off yourself and the audience is OK for this show.
- Scott Kardel
In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
Carl Tait
In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
Mr M N Raines <fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
>off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
"Mars" from "The Planets" by Holst was clearly the basis for
"Darth Vader's Death Polka" (or whatever the hell it's called)
from John Williams's score for _Star Wars_.
Liberace's once-popular song "Sincerely Yours" is a direct (and
uncredited) steal from Chopin's "Aeolian Harp" Etude, Op. 25/1.
Then there are all of those commercials that have added their own
words to well-known music: the song "Tangerine" became "Figurines"
(diet food, not statuettes), and Planter's Peanuts appropriated
the big tune from Beethoven's Ninth as the basis for their 25th
anniversary song. Mr. Peanut gleefully conducted the chorus as
Beethoven whirled madly in his grave.
--
Carl Tait IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
ta...@watson.ibm.com Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
Ellen B. Edgerton
Mr M N Raines (fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk) sez:
: I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
: blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
: opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
: Schumann's 4th symphony.
I assume you're referring to the Rhenish Symphony? I always thought that
was Symphony No. 3?
Brian W Ralston
> In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
> fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines) wrote:
>Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
>off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
John Williams E.T. Score - the Chase scene at the end of the movie.(E.T.
SDTK extended release, (MCA-11494), Track 17. Compare this with Howard
Hanson's Symphony No. 2 "Romantic", 3rd Movement, Allegro con fuoco.
The best recording of this I have found is performed by the Seattle
Symphony, conducted by Gerard Schwarz. (Delos-D/CD3073)
The similarities are almost note for note at times. Williams just
reverses the rhythm every few measures. You will see what I mean.
Hope this helps,
Brian W Ralston
bral...@u.arizona.edu
Michael Chance
Dear Mr. Raines,
I would like to say this. Just about every well known, highly respected
film composer has ripped off from an earlier classical work. John
Williams did it in _Star Wars_, James Horner is guilty again in _Glory_.
etc. I'm not condoning it, but I would wish to point a few things out.
1) as with any art form (painting, sculpture, theater) one artist
sometimes builds from the success and/or inspiration of a former. History
is full of examples. 2) Many times, a writer or director of a film will be
very specific in the kind of music he/she wants to compliment the scene,
citing various contemporary and classic works as "blueprints". This puts
the composer in an awkward struggle between creative originality and
professional duty. For this reason, I will defend the following
musical thiefs:
1.James Horner- Glory ; Carl Orff- O Fortuna, Carmina Burahna
2.Alexander North- Original score to 2001; Strauss- Thus Spake Zarathrustra
3.James Newton Howard- Waterworld ; James Horner- Willow
4. John Williams- Star Wars; Holst- The Planets (Mars) & Pictures at an
Exhibition (The Hut of Babba Yagga)
5. Cliff Eidelman- Star trek VI; Holst- The Planets (Mars)
I would like to add that I am a filmmaker who places a STRONG emphasis on
music as a fundamental element towards achieving an aesthetic response in
an audience. I live and die for music of all periods and categories. My
favorite composer is James Horner (one of the most singled out
plagiarists*) and would give just about anything to meet him in person.
Sincerely,
M.G. Chance
In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines) wrote:
> I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
> blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> Schumann's 4th symphony.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
dav...@earthlink.net
Mr M N Raines wrote:
>
> I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
> blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> Schumann's 4th symphony.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> Please post or e-mail them.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> -Matt Raines
>
> e-mail : M.N.R...@warwick.ac.uk
> URL : http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~fruml/
> Tel : +44 (0)1203 692092 (Room 101)
>
> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
> The 963 Classical Hour Thursdays 11am 106.1 FM
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> W963 FM - University Radio Warwick
> Broadcasting to Coventry, Kenilworth and beyond
The worst rip-off that I can think of, one that actually had me cringing
in the theatre, was James Horner's lift of the Gayane Ballet adagio at
the beginning of Aliens.
--
dav...@earthlink.net
"All you can take with you is that
which you have given away."
- IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE
Alan J. Briker
dav...@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Mr M N Raines wrote:
> >
> > I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
> > blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> > opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> > Schumann's 4th symphony.
> >
> > Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> > off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> > Please post or e-mail them.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
Listen to the Battle of the Ice from Alexander Nevsky. Then listen to
Phantom of the Opera.
One Hand, One Heart- from West Side Story, copied from Wagner.
alan
Milo D. Cooper
Mr M N Raines wrote:
>
> I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
> blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> Schumann's 4th symphony.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> Please post or e-mail them.
John Williams is one of my favorite composers, BUT: his
famous five-note mothership communication motif from _Close En-
counters_ is very much like the recurring five-note motif of
the third movement of Shostakovich's well-known tenth symphony,
firstly and loudly stated by a French horn. As well, his
_Jaws_ theme sounds significantly like "Les augures printan-
iers" from Stravinsky's famous _Le Sacre du Printemps_. Of
this same work, "Introduction" of part two ("Le Sacrifice")
sounds quite like Williams' Tatooine desert music in _Star
Wars_.
Then there are the two or three (or more) times that
Horner made use of Khatchaturian's _Gayaneh_ adagio. Examples
are easily heard in the opening credits of _Aliens_ and during
_Clear and Present Danger_.
--
/|___Milo D. Cooper___|\
\| mdco...@cts.com |/
Michael Rush
Mr M N Raines <fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> writes
>Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
>off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
>Please post or e-mail them.
The Prologue from Disney's Beauty and the Beast is almost identical to
the Aquarium from Carnival of the Animals.
It's so close, I could never understand why there isn't a mention in the
credits!
--
E N D O F L I N E
Mike
bill fraser
In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines) wrote:
> Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> Please post or e-mail them.
Here's two:
Perry Como's "Hot-Diggity Dog-diggity Boom What You Do To Me" comes from
Waldteufel's "España", which sounds an awful lot like Chabrier's "España"
"La Vie En Rose" comes from Stravinsky's "Rites of Spring"
;)
John M. Miano
In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>, fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines) wrote:
>blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
>opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
>Schumann's 4th symphony.
>
>off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
>Please post or e-mail them.
Willow is a great example.
From movie music I'd suggests
Conti's "The Right Stuff" (Academy Award Winner) - Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto
John Williams "Love Theme from Superman" - Strauss "Death and Transfiguration"
If you want something really subtle outside of the movies you might compare
the opening to the Bruckner 8th Symphony to the opening of the Beethoven 9th.
The rhythm of the opening them is the same although the notes are
sufficiently different to put asside plagurism in this case.
Let us know what your final list is!
John
------------------------------------------------
Yes my child, but if the computer industry were
driven by the "best" technology Bill Gates would
be washing car windows outside the Lincoln
Tunnel.
James Kahn
: blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
: opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
: Schumann's 4th symphony.
Charlie Chaplin's music in "The Kid" seems pretty close to Tchaikovsky's
"Pathetique" symphony (I believe the credits say music by Charlie Chaplin).
--Jim
====================================================================
ka...@troi.cc.rochester.edu Department of Economics
http://kahn.econ.rochester.edu University of Rochester
Rochester, NY 14627
Jeremy Berman
In <32FE57...@mail.idt.net> "Alan J. Briker" <ala...@mail.idt.net>
writes:
>Listen to the Battle of the Ice from Alexander Nevsky. Then listen to
>Phantom of the Opera.
>One Hand, One Heart- from West Side Story, copied from Wagner.
>
my favorite musical. However, "Somewhere" lifts the theme of the second
movement of Beethoven's Emperor Piano Concerto.
lanza
bill fraser wrote:
>
> In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
> fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines) wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> > off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> > Please post or e-mail them.
>
>
> Perry Como's "Hot-Diggity Dog-diggity Boom What You Do To Me" comes from
> Waldteufel's "España", which sounds an awful lot like Chabrier's "España"
>
> "La Vie En Rose" comes from Stravinsky's "Rites of Spring"
>
> ;)
One, it would help if you people would give precise passages involved.
If you're going to talk about plagiarism, at least be specific about
it. I suppose by Rite of Spring you mean the opening bassoon passage?
If that's plagiarism, then Edith Piaf deserves credit for disguising the
relationship in her performance of the song.
As for the Como song, plagiarism is not the same as adaptation. There
are plenty of those (Como also recorded "Til the End of Time" (Chopin's
Polonnaise in A-flat) and "No Other Love" (Rodgers' Victory at Sea).
"Como's" song is no more plagiarism than W's was of Chabrier, who simply
took the melodies from you-now-where anyway (incidentally, their
versions were almost contemporaneous, although C's was first).
This is by no means the only message making these errors; but, please,
if this thread will have any value, you've got to be specific; you can't
just say "stole from Wagner" (as a previous post said of a Bernstein
tune).
--
******************************
"MUSS ES SEIN? ES MUSS SEIN."
--LvB
******************************
lanza
My own contribution to this list, and a very blatant one indeed, is
Brodzsky's song, "I'll Never Stop Loving You" (nominated for an Academy
Award, 1955, from the film, "Love Me Or Leave Me"). The chorus is, note
for note, taken from the trio of the march from the Brit film, "The Dam
Busters" (music by Eric Coates). Speaking of Coates, his "Sleepy
Lagoon," famous for the BBC series, Desert Island Disks, was adapted for
the Platters' hit, "By the Sleepy Lagoon." But that, as I've said
previously, is not plagiarism, but adaptation.
MovieToons
:I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of
What's the point of this? Is this going on your resume you will submit to
HardCopy?
I am really interested in what the point of doing a show like this is.
Will you do the show with a positive attitude or a negative one? Either
way, you'd better have your chops prepared!
Kevin
ka...@troi.cc.rochester.edu (James Kahn) wrote:
>Charlie Chaplin's music in "The Kid" seems pretty close to Tchaikovsky's
>"Pathetique" symphony (I believe the credits say music by Charlie Chaplin).
Right. Chaplin wrote the music for all (or at least most) of the
feature-length films. I never noticed the connection to Tchaikovsky
before, but that's probably because I'm not such a big fan of
Tchaikovsky's.
Mr. Mike
lanza <la...@mail.ncku.edu.tw> writes:
> One, it would help if you people would give precise passages involved.
>If you're going to talk about plagiarism, at least be specific about
>it. I suppose by Rite of Spring you mean the opening bassoon passage?
>If that's plagiarism, then Edith Piaf deserves credit for disguising the
>relationship in her performance of the song.
Interesting that you bring up The Rite of Spring in a discussion of plagiarism.
You should check the following article:
Lawrence Morton. "Footnotes to Stravinsky Studies: `Le Sacre du
Printemps'". *TEMPO*, No. 128 (March, 1979), pages 9-16.
In the article, Morton puts the various folk tunes as they appear in a
Polish anthology next to the themes from The Rite Of Spring. They are
not just close, they are identical.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out my home page: http://web20.mindlink.net/a4369 -- The home
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Eric Barnhill
In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines) wrote:
> I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
> blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> Schumann's 4th symphony.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> Please post or e-mail them.
>
Billy Joel stole the theme of the slow movement of Beethoven's
"Pathetique" piano sonata, op.13, for his pop tune "This Night" on the
album "An Innocent Man".
Eric
_______________________________________________________
Eric Barnhill -- Peripatetic Pianist -- barn...@bway.net
Jan Staff
Mr M N Raines wrote:
>
> I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
> blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> Schumann's 4th symphony.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> Please post or e-mail them.
>
Wasn't the trumpet theme from the Godfather movie(s) a rip-off?
(Sorry, can't remember who wrote the original tune...)
And without the *classical* sticker:
The first Emanuelle-movie stole King Crimson's "Lark Tnogue in Aspic",
got sued by Robert Fripp and lost. :)
Jan
____________________________________________________________________
"- Dette er min mening, og den støtter jeg fullt ut!"
Jan Staff, st...@sn.no, http://home.sn.no/~staff/
Daniel F. Tritter
I suppose a composer is entitled to use his own music more than once.
Let's not assign blame to a crooner of some worth, e.g., Perry Como. In
fact "No Other Love" is the theme from "Victory at Sea," which composer
Richard Rodgers then used in his coolly received musical with Oscar
Hammerstein II, "Me and Juliet" (1953, as I recall it).
In my lifetime, the use of classical themes for pop songs can be traced
to Freddy Martin deriving "Tonight we Love" from Tchaikowsky's Piano
Concerto #1, first movement. Probably a lot earlier, but I can't think
of them at this moment.
dft
lanza
Daniel F. Tritter wrote:
>
> I suppose a composer is entitled to use his own music more than once.
even once, if we are to believe these threads!
> Let's not assign blame to a crooner of some worth, e.g., Perry Como.
Where did you get the idea I was assigning blame? I'm fond of Como;
and, in any case, how can a singer be faulted for the song?
In
> fact "No Other Love" is the theme from "Victory at Sea," which composer
> Richard Rodgers then used in his coolly received musical with Oscar
> Hammerstein II, "Me and Juliet" (1953, as I recall it).
Yes, that's right; but I acknowledged authorship and source in my own
posting. I don't understand what this has to do with my posting (did
you get me confused with somebody else?).
>
> In my lifetime, the use of classical themes for pop songs can be traced
> to Freddy Martin deriving "Tonight we Love" from Tchaikowsky's Piano
> Concerto #1, first movement. Probably a lot earlier, but I can't think
> of them at this moment.
Well, Russ Columbo adapted the Chopin polonnaise for "'Til the End of
Time" (subsequently identified with Como after Columbo's premature
death). And, yes, "Tonight We Love" was one of the biggest hits of the
decade, followed by "Full Moon and Empty Arms," "Wrong," "Night"
(remember Jackie Wilson's adaptation of the Saint-Saens love duet?).
Listen, I'm not complaining about "plagiarism," which is as rampant in
the music business as in the joke business (that doesn't mean that the
music business is a joke). Composers have been stealing ever since they
went from single note melodies to multiple note tunes; only we've lost
the pedigree in history. The question, as I've repeatedly said, is not
whether you steal or not but how well you make it your own. It doesn't
matter where Stravinsky got the tune from Petrushka, or Copland from
Appalachian Spring: they made it their own! Just like Brahms and
Rachmaninov made the Paganini caprice their own, while some composers
didn't.
W. Scott Kardel
Actually, Billy Joel credits Beethoven as writing the music to this one. Its not a steal this
time!
- Scott Kardel
Stefan Pilczek
Mr M N Raines wrote:
>
> I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
> blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> Schumann's 4th symphony.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> Please post or e-mail them.
>
The song 'I don't know how to love him' from Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Jesus
Christ, Superstar" and the slow movement of Mendelssohn's Violin
Concerto.
Stefan Pilczek
Benjamin E. Buck
dav...@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Mr M N Raines wrote:
> >
> > I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
> > blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> > opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> > Schumann's 4th symphony.
> >
> > Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> > off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> > Please post or e-mail them.
> >
> >
> > --
> > -Matt Raines
> >
> > e-mail : M.N.R...@warwick.ac.uk
> > URL : http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~fruml/
> > Tel : +44 (0)1203 692092 (Room 101)
> >
> > \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
> > The 963 Classical Hour Thursdays 11am 106.1 FM
> > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> > W963 FM - University Radio Warwick
> > Broadcasting to Coventry, Kenilworth and beyond
>
> The worst rip-off that I can think of, one that actually had me cringing
> in the theatre, was James Horner's lift of the Gayane Ballet adagio at
> the beginning of Aliens.
> --
> dav...@earthlink.net
>
> "All you can take with you is that
> which you have given away."
>
> - IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE
Don't forget the trio from Juppiter (Holst's planets) in BraveHeart as
Mauren's theme! (Ok, so maybe it's a stretch, but the first few notes
are the same)
Mr. Mike
"Milo D. Cooper" <mdco...@cts.com> writes:
> John Williams is one of my favorite composers, BUT: his
>famous five-note mothership communication motif from _Close En-
>counters_ is very much like the recurring five-note motif of
>the third movement of Shostakovich's well-known tenth symphony,
>firstly and loudly stated by a French horn.
No, it is like a theme from Der Rosenkavalier...
> As well, his
>_Jaws_ theme sounds significantly like "Les augures printan-
>iers" from Stravinsky's famous _Le Sacre du Printemps_.
No, it sounds like Dvorak's New World Symphony ... No, it sounds like
Moussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain...
";-/
John M. Miano
In article <32FFA1...@fc.bilston.ac.uk>, Stefan Pilczek <stefan....@fc.bilston.ac.uk> wrote:
>Mr M N Raines wrote:
>>
>> I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
>> blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
>> opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
>> Schumann's 4th symphony.
>>
>> Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
>> off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
>> Please post or e-mail them.
>>
>
>
>Christ, Superstar" and the slow movement of Mendelssohn's Violin
>Concerto.
Doesn't one of the slow songs from Phantom of the Opera (sung by the
Phantom) have the same tune as the second theme from the second movement of
the Bruckner 7th?
Mike Coldewey
Mr M N Raines wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> Please post or e-mail them.
IMHO, some of the music from Land Befor Time, also by James Horner,
sounds a lot like the Faure Requiem.
Mike
Frank Van den Heuvel
given the right references.
Another story I heard was on the Visconti film "Death in Venice"
with music by Mahler (mainly adagio from the fifth). Apparantly
one of the producers who looked at the film to acquire it for
the American market was not impressed with the movie, but asked if he
could hire the composer. True or urban legend?
Frank
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Frank Van den Heuvel Ph.D. vand...@kci.wayne.edu
Karmanos Cancer Institute Voice: (313) 745 24 66
Wayne State University Fax: (313) 745 23 14
3990 John R.
Detroit, MI 48230
HFMnet
Interesting topic! Why not expand it to include wholesale stylistic
rip-offs--e.g., The Black Stallion (Carmine Coppola and Shirley Walker),
which, while very pretty, is a complete pastiche of Satie (probably the
classical composer most plagiarized by soundtrack composers, because so
much of his stuff sounds like it was written for a film). Stanley Meyer's
lovely title theme for The Deer Hunter, as well as the Sarabande from the
same album, is another direct Satie copy. And of course there are tons of
rip-offs of Herrmann's Psycho theme and Williams' Jaws theme.
Tom Daish
MovieToons wrote:
>
> :I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of
> :music blatantly copied from someone else.
>
> HardCopy?
Well actually, I am the presenter of the programme this is going to be
on. It is my own film music radio show. The idea was just a bit of fun
and to show where composers get their inspiration and in some cases take
that inspiration a bit far.
> I am really interested in what the point of doing a show like this is.
> Will you do the show with a positive attitude or a negative one? Either
> way, you'd better have your chops prepared!
Since the listenership of hospital radio is hardly record breaking, the
likelihood of any complaints is minimal. The attitude will probably be a
fairly indifferent one. IT is just to show that it is difficult to write
totally original music. As a budding composer as well as DJ, I know the
difficulties associated with composing original music as there is always
some influence in what you write from music that you like to listen to.
There are hints of John Williams, Danny Elfman as well as James Horner
in most of my music. There are no blatent rip-offs in any of the themes,
they just sound very similar in style. Hell, I may very well play some
of my music such as a "Flying" piece I wrote which is in many ways
inspired and stylistically similar to Hook's flying music.
Tom.
David Brooks,139,7233
I'm not sure which Wagner you're thinking of, but "I Have a Love" is a
clear reference to the Redemption By Love theme from the Ring. I find that
singularly appropriate.
--
David Brooks, QA Manager, Desktop Engineering dbr...@opengroup.org
The Open Group <URL:http://www.opengroup.org/~dbrooks/>
Commit planned giving and daily acts of compassion.
David Brooks,139,7233
Michael...@baylor.edu (Michael Chance) writes:
>4. John Williams- Star Wars; Holst- The Planets (Mars)...
I have never been able to understand why people hear so much Holst in the
Star Wars music. I recommend a listen to the Walton film music and his
marches -- especially Orb & Sceptre. Then tell me where you think John
Williams gets his British-sounding harmony and orchestration.
Personally, I don't fault JW for references to the style of other
composers. Movie composers write in a cultural context, shared by us all,
even if we don't remember hearing anything by Walton at all (if you sat
through the Olympics opening ceremony, you heard both Coronation marches).
It's not the job of the movie composer to say something new; it's their job
to appeal to our emotions.
Now, if Williams's concert hall work contained unacknowledged references
and lifts, then I would ahve a problem. But, then. I haven't heard said
music.
Matthias Schneider
Isn't the descending line (E-D-C-G, in case of C major) in Clint Eastwood's
main theme to "The Bridges of Madison County" from Brahms' symphony no. 1?
Gabriel Yared used whole passages note-by-note from Prokofiev's "Romeo and
Juliet" in either his film music score for "Wings of Courage" or "Map of the
Human Heart" (I don't remember right now which one it was). The name of
Prokofiev is not mentioned in the soundtrack CD booklet.
Matthias Schneider
Jan Staff
Speaking of Satie: His music has been worn to threads in the most
mollesting
ways in at least millions off commercials. Regretably.
Luckily his music can stand most of these rapes and is well worth a
listen
every now and then in it's original form.
But I digress... :)
Jan
--
James Kahn
In article <5dm97b$o...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Jeremy Berman <jell...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <32FE57...@mail.idt.net> "Alan J. Briker" <ala...@mail.idt.net>
>writes:
>>
>>Listen to the Battle of the Ice from Alexander Nevsky. Then listen to
>>Phantom of the Opera.
>>
>my favorite musical. However, "Somewhere" lifts the theme of the second
>movement of Beethoven's Emperor Piano Concerto.
I don't think this really qualifies as a rip-off. I take it you refer to
the rising (diminished) seventh in "There's a place for us", and the
second part of the theme in the Beethoven. But the song modulates on "us",
and is on a different note from the concerto, which returns to the first
note, as I recall. And after that it's all different.
In another post, Stefan Pilchzek had written:
>The song 'I don't know how to love him' from Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Jesus
>Christ, Superstar" and the slow movement of Mendelssohn's Violin
>Concerto.
Same point here: There's a certain similarity, but I wouldn't call it
a ripoff, much less a blatant one. Just my opinion, of course.
Speaking of blatant ripoffs: Within classical music, what about
the Brahms Rhapsody Op. 79/1 and Grieg's "Peer Gynt" suite. They
were both written around the same time, and both have this tune
starting out with "1-4-5---1-4-5---etc." that's essentially identical.
What's the story here?
John Grabowski
In <5dm5g0$b...@mtinsc02.worldnet.att.net> Ami...@worldnet.att.netZ
(John M. Miano) writes:
>From movie music I'd suggests
>
>Conti's "The Right Stuff" (Academy Award Winner) - Tchaikovsky Violin
Concerto
I forget the reason why, but the theme was lifted deliberately.
>John Williams "Love Theme from Superman" - Strauss "Death and
Transfiguration"
Nope. Check out the respective scores. But no one seems to want to,
though I've posted this a thousand time before.
John
John Grabowski
> John Williams is one of my favorite composers, BUT: his
>famous five-note mothership communication motif from _Close En-
>counters_ is very much like the recurring five-note motif of
>the third movement of Shostakovich's well-known tenth symphony,
>firstly and loudly stated by a French horn.
You're not listening very carefully (at all?). First of all, the notes
are not the same or even close. They go "up" and "down" at the same
point, but that's about it. And it's not first stated by the Fr h.
It's stated at the very beginning in the long string melody, which is
then broken up by many instruments, the Fr h taking that part.
As well, his
>_Jaws_ theme sounds significantly like "Les augures printan-
>iers" from Stravinsky's famous _Le Sacre du Printemps_.
(Funny, I always thought Jaws sounded like the finale of Dvorak's New
World Symphony. :-)
You gotta be kiddin! Because they both start on basses-celli? Are
*any* of the notes even the same as the shark theme? Just one?
Williams has said many times where the idea of the Jaws theme came
from: Spielberg wanted a counterpoint to the shark, a tickling delicate
piano melody (I suppose if Williams had done that, you'd say he's
ripped off Debussy), but Williams said no, you need something like a
heartbeat to give shape to the nervousness and fear the audience was
feeling...and he hummed his idea...BOOM-boom-BOOM-boom-BOOM-boom.
Of
>this same work, "Introduction" of part two ("Le Sacrifice")
>sounds quite like Williams' Tatooine desert music in _Star
>Wars_.
Superficially for the first few bars. If you're going to call *that*
plagiarism, then how about the opening bars of the second movement of
Rachmaninoff's 3rd Symphony...sounds very close to the love theme from
"Chinatown" by Jerry Goldsmith.
How about "Raiders" ripping off the theme from "Patton." No, I don't
think it does, but it sounds about as much like it as "Star Wars" does
to Mars/Born Free/the Star Spangled Banner/all the other idiotic
comparisons.
> Then there are the two or three (or more) times that
>Horner made use of Khatchaturian's _Gayaneh_ adagio. Examples
>are easily heard in the opening credits of _Aliens_ and during
>_Clear and Present Danger_.
Oh for crying out loud. Horner didn't "rip off" the Gayne in Aliens.
It's used outright, and is clearly labeled in the credits. Geeze, I
guess Alex North ripped off "The Blue Danube" for 2001, then, eh?
How come we don't scrutinize classical composers among themselves as
carefully as we do film composers? You'd think no film composer can
think up a four-bar melody and they have to have a stack of classical
CDs at their elbow whenever they go into the screening room. Has
anyone on this group ever accused Beethoven of "ripping off" Mehul (or
vice-versa) with the first movement of LvB's 5th vs. the last movement
of M's 1st? Or how about Beethoven "ripping off" Mozart in their
respective E-flat major symphonies? ....Didn't think so. (I know
that's not what *this* thread is about, but *nobody* ever discusses
that.)
All this "ripping off" discuss shows me is that many people here don't
listen to music very carefully--"classical" or film.
John
Dave Gittins
John M. Miano <Ami...@worldnet.att.netZ> wrote in article
<5dnlhi$s...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net>...
> In article <32FFA1...@fc.bilston.ac.uk>, Stefan Pilczek
<stefan....@fc.bilston.ac.uk> wrote:
> >Mr M N Raines wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
> >> blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> >> opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> >> Schumann's 4th symphony.
> >>
"Memories", from "Cats", begins with the opening of Ravel's "Bolero" and
it's rhythmic pattern is very close to "Someday", from "The Vagabond King".
Somebody said that the secret of writing a popular song is to write a new
tune that everybody has heard before. Lord Andrew has taken this to heart
in a big way.
Dave Gittins
Roberto Barrueto-Cabello
> > >> I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
> > >> blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> > >> opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> > >> Schumann's 4th symphony.
> > >>
The theme that we all know from the Natural which sounds almost exactly
like Fanfare for the Common Man but isn't. I'm not sure if Copland
got credit at the end but the movie was not using the exact Fanfare for
the Common Man.
Roberto A. B-C
John Grabowski
In <1997Feb10.2...@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>
ka...@troi.cc.rochester.edu (James Kahn) writes:
>
>In article <5dm97b$o...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Jeremy Berman <jell...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <32FE57...@mail.idt.net> "Alan J. Briker"
<ala...@mail.idt.net>
>>writes:
>>>
>>>Listen to the Battle of the Ice from Alexander Nevsky. Then listen
to
>>>Phantom of the Opera.
>>>One Hand, One Heart- from West Side Story, copied from Wagner.
>>>
>>Jeremy writes: Not to purposely pick on West Side Story, after all
it's
second
>>movement of Beethoven's Emperor Piano Concerto.
>
>I don't think this really qualifies as a rip-off. I take it you refer
to
>the rising (diminished) seventh in "There's a place for us", and the
>second part of the theme in the Beethoven. But the song modulates on
"us",
>and is on a different note from the concerto, which returns to the
first
>note, as I recall. And after that it's all different.
>
>In another post, Stefan Pilchzek had written:
>
>>The song 'I don't know how to love him' from Andrew Lloyd Webber's
"Jesus
>>Christ, Superstar" and the slow movement of Mendelssohn's Violin
>>Concerto.
>
>Same point here: There's a certain similarity, but I wouldn't call it
>a ripoff, much less a blatant one. Just my opinion, of course.
Whoah...you're getting technical here. Gonna lose half of 'em. ;-)
J
Don Patterson
Carl Tait wrote:
>
> In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
> Mr M N Raines <fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> >Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> >off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
>
> "Mars" from "The Planets" by Holst was clearly the basis for
> "Darth Vader's Death Polka" (or whatever the hell it's called)
> from John Williams's score for _Star Wars_.
I hear a similarity, but I don't see that it is a blatant rip-off.
--
Don Patterson <don...@erols.com>
"The President's Own"
United States Marine Band
The views expressed are my own and in no way reflect
those of the U.S. Marine Band or the Marine Corps.
Don Patterson
Michael Chance wrote:
>
>
> 1.James Horner- Glory ; Carl Orff- O Fortuna, Carmina Burahna
> 2.Alexander North- Original score to 2001; Strauss- Thus Spake Zarathrustra
I believe Herr Strauss was credited here.
> 3.James Newton Howard- Waterworld ; James Horner- Willow
> 4. John Williams- Star Wars; Holst- The Planets (Mars)
Similar, yes. Rip-off, no. The two themes are quite different. Just
because they both protray a menacing figure does not make them
identicle.
& Pictures at an
> Exhibition (The Hut of Babba Yagga)
????? Where do you hear this? In the Star Wars trilogy, I hear stylistic
tidbits of Stravinsky, Holst, Mendelssohn, and a host of others. I just
don't hear any direct quotes.
dav...@earthlink.net
John Grabowski wrote:
> > Then there are the two or three (or more) times that
> >Horner made use of Khatchaturian's _Gayaneh_ adagio. Examples
> >are easily heard in the opening credits of _Aliens_ and during
> >_Clear and Present Danger_.
>
> Oh for crying out loud. Horner didn't "rip off" the Gayne in Aliens.
> It's used outright, and is clearly labeled in the credits. Geeze, I
> guess Alex North ripped off "The Blue Danube" for 2001, then, eh?
>
Hmmm...I think we'd better double-check this one. I am a composer and
well-versed musically speaking, and I am quite familiar with the Adagio.
As I remember, this was a very close approximation of Khachaturian, not
the actual piece. If there is credit given to old Aram at the end,
that's fine, but I distinctly remember hearing an "homage" to 2001's
Discovery scene that grated on my nerves because it seemed a little too
close for comfort. Anyone else see that credit?
Jeffrey Wheeler
Mr. Mike <a02...@giant.mindlink.net> wrote:
>"Milo D. Cooper" <mdco...@cts.com> writes:
>> John Williams is one of my favorite composers, BUT: his
>>famous five-note mothership communication motif from _Close En-
>>counters_ is very much like the recurring five-note motif of
>>the third movement of Shostakovich's well-known tenth symphony,
>>firstly and loudly stated by a French horn.
>No, it is like a theme from Der Rosenkavalier...
No, it is like a theme from two or three Britten pieces that for the
life of me I can't remember the names of...
In all honesty, I don't think Williams would go to the trouble of
consulting a mathematician, composing over 200 five-note ditties, and
then composing another 150 arrangements of Spielberg's favorite
five-note ditty when all he had to do was take a pencil and a slip of
paper over to his LP collection.
>> As well, his
>>_Jaws_ theme sounds significantly like "Les augures printan-
>>iers" from Stravinsky's famous _Le Sacre du Printemps_.
>No, it sounds like Dvorak's New World Symphony ... No, it sounds like
>Moussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain...
No, it sounds like Hampton's The Primitives... No, it sounds like
Herrmann's Psycho... No, it sounds like the timpani part from Strauss'
Also sprach Zarathustra...
I'm starting to wonder, is Williams exempt from being accused of
plagiarism since so many 'legit' composers beat him to it?
Anyway, to share a little non-cinema related 'borrowing' that I
spotted today. Hancock's Introit for a Feast Day features a theme not
at all unlike the late appearing 'Timothy, Mark, and John movement,'
for lack of the proper title (I obviously find Britten unmemorable
when it comes to titles), in the St. Nicholas cantata. Just add a
pushing march behind Hancock's orchestrations and it's almost eerie!
Jeffrey Wheeler
sha...@bellsouth.net
Andrew Kim
In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines) wrote:
> I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
> blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> Schumann's 4th symphony.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> Please post or e-mail them.
The absolute most blatant ripoff in movie soundtracks that I've heard
(outside the omnipresent "Mars" theme from The Planets) is in Michael
Kamen's "The Dead Zone".
Kamen's main theme is lifted note for note from the 1st theme of Sibelius'
Symphony No. 2, 2nd movement. Only the metre is slightly different. What's
more, it's played on an english horn, which often iterates the theme in the
symphony as well. Kamen gives no acknowledgement or thanks in the liner
notes of the recording or the credits in the movie. Feh.
- Drew
--
Andrew Kim
Coordinator of Special Services
Brown University Police and Security
Box 1842
Providence, RI 02912
dre...@brownvm.brown.edu
Bill Zick
One widely recognized similarity in composition exists between George
Gershwin's
"I' ve Got Rhythm" and the third movement of William Grant Still's earlier
"Symphony
No. 1 (Afro-American)". Everyone who has heard the pieces played in quick
succession in my presence has perceived striking similarity between them.
bill fraser <i...@lanminds.com> wrote in article
<ian-090297...@ppp27.lanminds.com>...
> In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
> fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines) wrote:
>
>
> > Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
> > off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> > Please post or e-mail them.
>
> Here's two:
>
> Perry Como's "Hot-Diggity Dog-diggity Boom What You Do To Me" comes from
> Waldteufel's "España", which sounds an awful lot like Chabrier's "España"
>
> "La Vie En Rose" comes from Stravinsky's "Rites of Spring"
>
> ;)
>
Kevin
fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines) wrote:
> For example, I will play the
>opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
>Schumann's 4th symphony.
I really don't fault Horner for this. Directors very often tell
composers to write in certain styles. Blaming the directors seems more
appropriate to me.
That said, Horner's score to "Clear and Present Danger" is said to
have a bit that sounds like the third movement of Shostokovitch's
Fifth Symphony. Never seen it myself,
Doctor Gonzo
Frank Van den Heuvel <vand...@kci.wayne.edu> wrote:
>Obviously the score to 2001 was not a rip-off. All composers were
>given the right references.
Have you ever heard North's _original_ score for 2001? The one
Kubrick trashed in favor of the music he'd selected for the "guide
tracks"? It's on Varese-Sarabande... and it sounds VERY Straussian,
too much for comfort (but then, that's what Stan asked for)!!
The Doc
Check out a mind-bending "separated at birth?" discovery at
http://www.pipeline.com/~drgonzo/sab/sab.htm
Gordon Shumway
Handel's "And He shall reign for ever and ever." theme from the
Halleleujah chorus turns up almost unchanged in the finale of Mahler's
Fifth Symphony.
The first theme of the second movement of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony turns
up as the triumphal trombone entrance theme in Beethoven's Fifth
Symphony.
lanza
> > "All you can take with you is that
> > which you have given away."
> >
> > - IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE
"And,
In the end,
The love you take
Is equal to the love you make."
--The Beatles, *Abbey Road*
--
******************************
"MUSS ES SEIN? ES MUSS SEIN."
--LvB
******************************
John Grabowski
In <32FFD2...@erols.com> Don Patterson <sd...@erols.com> writes:
>
>Carl Tait wrote:
>>
>> In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
>> >
>> >Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
>> >off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
can!
>>
>> "Mars" from "The Planets" by Holst was clearly the basis for
>> "Darth Vader's Death Polka" (or whatever the hell it's called)
>> from John Williams's score for _Star Wars_.
>
>I hear a similarity, but I don't see that it is a blatant rip-off.
I'm curious what piece the original poster is talking about. If he
means "The Imperial March," that one wasn't even in "Star Wars." And
there's plenty of other classical music that sounds a lot closer to it.
John
lanza
> No, it sounds like Dvorak's New World Symphony ... No, it sounds like
> Moussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain...
Okay, we're humorously hitting on an important truism here: whether
something "sounds like" something else and actually has a pedigree to
something else are two different things. I've always said, people don't
speak with an accent, they HEAR with an accent (only actors speak with
accents, because they do so deliberately). The same applies to the
issue of plagiarism: the plagiaristic relationship is not in the music,
but in the audition of the music! Obviously somebody who was hearing
only his second symphony would claim that, say, Mahler was "stealing"
from Haydn, since the two symphonies sounded so much alike ("Hey! They
both had four movements! Hey! Those are the same violins I heard in
that other symphony I heard oh about 9 years ago! He must have stolen
it from that guy, um, what's his name, um, Hey Don!").
John Grabowski
In <32FFD4...@erols.com> Don Patterson <sd...@erols.com> writes:
>
>Michael Chance wrote:
>>
>>
>> 1.James Horner- Glory ; Carl Orff- O Fortuna, Carmina Burahna
>> 2.Alexander North- Original score to 2001; Strauss- Thus Spake
Zarathrustra
>
>I believe Herr Strauss was credited here.
>
>> 3.James Newton Howard- Waterworld ; James Horner- Willow
>> 4. John Williams- Star Wars; Holst- The Planets (Mars)
>
>Similar, yes. Rip-off, no. The two themes are quite different. Just
>because they both protray a menacing figure does not make them
>identicle.
>
>& Pictures at an
>> Exhibition (The Hut of Babba Yagga)
>
>????? Where do you hear this? In the Star Wars trilogy, I hear
stylistic
>tidbits of Stravinsky, Holst, Mendelssohn, and a host of others. I
just
>don't hear any direct quotes.
That's because there aren't any. The only direct quotes are from other
movies: "Psycho," (3 note-motiff) and a section deliberately lifted
from one of the 1940s gangster-type Humphrey Bogart movies (might be
"The Big Sleep," don't remember) that was done deliberately to pay
hommage to classic Hollywood, with permission of the estate of whomever
was involved.
And it's interesting that all the musicological geniuses on this
newsgroup hear all this "plagiarism," but don't hear these two
acknowledged liftings. :-)
John
lanza
> I'm not sure which Wagner you're thinking of, but "I Have a Love" is a
> clear reference to the Redemption By Love theme from the Ring. I find that
> singularly appropriate.
--
Bernstein and the Wagner, except the relatonship that is obvious from
people using the same diatonic scale. In this scheme of things, The
Sun Also Rises is a blatant ripoff of the Bible!
However, what about the startling duplication of notes in Eastwood's
Unforgiven melody against the melody from A Place in the Sun,
popularized by Stevie Wonder decades ago.
bill fraser
> A number of points:
> One, it would help if you people would give precise passages
involved.
> If you're going to talk about plagiarism, at least be specific about
> it. I suppose by Rite of Spring you mean the opening bassoon passage?
> If that's plagiarism, then Edith Piaf deserves credit for disguising the
> relationship in her performance of the song.
> As for the Como song, plagiarism is not the same as adaptation. There
> are plenty of those (Como also recorded "Til the End of Time" (Chopin's
> Polonnaise in A-flat) and "No Other Love" (Rodgers' Victory at Sea).
> "Como's" song is no more plagiarism than W's was of Chabrier, who simply
> took the melodies from you-now-where anyway (incidentally, their
> versions were almost contemporaneous, although C's was first).
> This is by no means the only message making these errors; but, please,
> if this thread will have any value, you've got to be specific; you can't
> just say "stole from Wagner" (as a previous post said of a Bernstein
> tune).
Perhaps you missed the
;)
at the end of the message... for future reference, that denotes "just
kidding" or "joke" or "just pulling your leg."
But since you're splitting hairs, When you say "Rodgers' Victory at Sea,"
I suppose you mean the pleasant little ditty that is played during the
South Seas paradise sections, hmm? Oh, and Richard Rodgers wrote both
Victory at Sea and No Other Love (From Me and Juliet") so it seems like a
silly example of plagiarism. A simple glance at the program notes of any
appropriate album will tell you he was dying to put words to the music and
squeeze it into a musical.
lanza
> Oh, and Richard Rodgers wrote both
> Victory at Sea and No Other Love (From Me and Juliet") so it seems like a
> silly example of plagiarism. A simple glance at the program notes of any
> appropriate album will tell you he was dying to put words to the music and
> squeeze it into a musical.
plagiarism going around who knows who's being serious or kidding any
more. Sometimes I wonder if these people heard only a half dozen
concert works, the way they're happily going about finding similarities
among everything else. Let's face it, to a child every symphony sounds
alike! As for the Rodgers, please, please I know the Tin Pan Alley
canon inside out; I know Rodgers' work very well; I know the Victory at
Sea score; I know he later adapted the song for one of his less
successful musicals. I was merely do what you claim you were doing;
pointing out the absurdity of this plagiarism thread.
--
Carl Tait
In article <5dp22b$2...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
I was thinking of the music that's played whenever they show
Darth Vader tromping around. I'll have to agree with both of you
that it's not "a blatant rip-off," only that it was "clearly the basis"
for the Williams piece. Imitation would have been a better word
than plagiarism here -- in the same sense that the slow movement
of Ginastera's Piano Sonata No. 2 imitates "The Night's Music"
from Bartok's "Out of Doors." The similarity is close enough to be
immediately recognizable, but there is no note-by-note copying.
On the other hand, Liberace's "Sincerely Yours" and Eric Carmen's two
songs that steal from Rachmaninoff *are* "blatant rip-offs." Liberace
definitely concealed his source; did Eric Carmen? And how about the
composers of songs like "Tonight We Love" (Tsch PC 1), "Full Moon and
Empty Arms" (Rach PC 2), and "I'm Always Chasing Rainbows" (Chopin's
Fantaisie-Impromptu)? Was there ever any acknowledgement of the
composers who actually wrote the melodies?
--
Carl Tait IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
ta...@watson.ibm.com Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
Jim_...@transarc.com
dav...@earthlink.net writes:
> The worst rip-off that I can think of, one that actually had me cringing
> in the theatre, was James Horner's lift of the Gayane Ballet adagio at
> the beginning of Aliens.
I don't think this is a rip off, or at least not a direct
one. Goldsmith used the same music in the first Alien film, in the
same context: sleepers in suspended animation. And Goldsmith was
making a cinematic reference in doing so. This was the same music
that's used in 2001 (and credited, by the way) when we see the folks
in suspended animation on the Discovery.
******************************************************************
Jim Mann jm...@transarc.com
Transarc Corporation
Technical Writer -- Encina Programming Documentation
The Gulf Tower, 707 Grant Street, Pittsburgh, PA 15219 (412) 338-4442
http://www.transarc.com/~jmann/
John Grabowski
In <5dqjib$a...@ground.cs.columbia.edu> ta...@news.cs.columbia.edu (Carl
Tait) writes:
>
>In article <5dp22b$2...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>John Grabowski <joh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <32FFD2...@erols.com> Don Patterson <sd...@erols.com> writes:
>>>
>>>Carl Tait wrote:
>>>> "Mars" from "The Planets" by Holst was clearly the basis for
>>>> "Darth Vader's Death Polka" (or whatever the hell it's called)
>>>> from John Williams's score for _Star Wars_.
>>I'm curious what piece the original poster is talking about. If he
>>means "The Imperial March," that one wasn't even in "Star Wars." And
>>there's plenty of other classical music that sounds a lot closer to
it.
>
>I was thinking of the music that's played whenever they show
>Darth Vader tromping around.
That'd different depending on what movie you're talking about. They
didn't have "The Imperial March" in the first film, yet Darth does a
lot of tromping around.
>On the other hand, Liberace's "Sincerely Yours" and Eric Carmen's two
>songs that steal from Rachmaninoff *are* "blatant rip-offs." Liberace
>definitely concealed his source; did Eric Carmen? And how about the
>composers of songs like "Tonight We Love" (Tsch PC 1), "Full Moon and
>Empty Arms" (Rach PC 2), and "I'm Always Chasing Rainbows" (Chopin's
>Fantaisie-Impromptu)? Was there ever any acknowledgement of the
>composers who actually wrote the melodies?
I've always heard them acknowledged as such when people mentioned them
to me, but whether such acknowledgements are on the actual original
published score or not I don't know. Good question.
However, many a classical composer has lifted a tune from another
composer's work for his own piece.
John
John Grabowski
In <Yn0AFUqSMUF=1cp...@transarc.com> Jim_...@transarc.com writes:
>
>dav...@earthlink.net writes:
>> The worst rip-off that I can think of, one that actually had me
cringing
>> in the theatre, was James Horner's lift of the Gayane Ballet adagio
at
>> the beginning of Aliens.
>
>I don't think this is a rip off, or at least not a direct
>one. Goldsmith used the same music in the first Alien film, in the
>same context: sleepers in suspended animation. And Goldsmith was
>making a cinematic reference in doing so. This was the same music
>that's used in 2001 (and credited, by the way) when we see the folks
>in suspended animation on the Discovery.
That's correct. Sigh...I'll say it again: the Gayne was used note for
note, a la Stanley Kubrick in 2001, and credited at the end. That's
not the same as a "rip off."
Perhaps the trouble is not with all the composers, but with some people
on this group who need to get to their Websters and look up the
definition of "rip off"?
John
Dylan NICHOLSON
>firstly and loudly stated by a French horn. As well, his
>_Jaws_ theme sounds significantly like "Les augures printan-
Hadn't noticed that, compares better with last movt of Dvorak's no.9!
Dylan
Dylan NICHOLSON
>Nope. Check out the respective scores. But no one seems to want to,
>though I've posted this a thousand time before.
C'mon, there is a pretty obvious similarity - rising appegio in the
tonic (major), falling to chord on the 2nd with a raised 4th (I wouldn't
be surprised if this piece of music inspired William's love of the
lydian mode).
Dylan
andrew harmantas
Daniel F. Tritter wrote:
>
> I suppose a composer is entitled to use his own music more than once.
> Let's not assign blame to a crooner of some worth, e.g., Perry Como. In
> fact "No Other Love" is the theme from "Victory at Sea," which composer
> Richard Rodgers then used in his coolly received musical with Oscar
> Hammerstein II, "Me and Juliet" (1953, as I recall it).
>
> In my lifetime, the use of classical themes for pop songs can be traced
> to Freddy Martin deriving "Tonight we Love" from Tchaikowsky's Piano
> Concerto #1, first movement. Probably a lot earlier, but I can't think
> of them at this moment.
>
> dft
It predates even Freddy Martin, all the way back to Verdi, where some of
his melodies were taken from popular tunes and then re-introduced in the
production, and re-adopted by the public. Sort of a "blatant-rip-off"
in reverse, except it isn't really all that blatant, nor is it a
rip-off, as musicians have been doing this since music began. Much of
Stravinsky's music is based on folk themes and popular songs, and he was
only one of many. If you are familiar with the origins of folk melody,
you will see (or hear) this practice by nearly all the greats, from
Brahms, Bartok, Beethoven, and several other B's, except for perhaps
Bach. Does this interaction detract from the greatness of their music?
No, certainly not. All communication relies, to some extent, on idiom,
or, a medium of exchange. It's more basic than a common language, and
it's the aceptance or rejection of what we hear in the music we listen
to. Or at least it seems that way to me, Andrew Harmantas, Artist,
Illustrator, Lecturer, World Traveler, and Bum, still trying to find
music by Prokofiev where he ripped off another composer...
Gee..Prokofiev and Bach...the only exceptions to the rule...
John Grabowski
James Southall
Kevin wrote:
>
> Matthew Nesfield Raines wrote:
>
> > For example, I will play the
> > opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> > Schumann's 4th symphony.
>
> I really don't fault Horner for this. Directors very often tell
> composers to write in certain styles. Blaming the directors seems more
> appropriate to me.
I would have thought that in this instance, though, the director (Ron
Howard) would not have had much say in the matter, and it would have
been George Lucas who was calling the shots.
And I don't really think that GL would have asked for the main theme to
sound like Schuman's third.
> That said, Horner's score to "Clear and Present Danger" is said to
> have a bit that sounds like the third movement of Shostokovitch's
> Fifth Symphony.
Isn't "Apollo 13" just meant to be "Clear and Present Danger", with very
little attempt to mask the changes?
I don't have the score to the latter, so I couldn't comment, but the
trailer for A13 was scored with C&PD music...
--
James
VISIT THE TERRY WOGAN SHRINE!
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ma6jes/wogan.htm
Kevin
joh...@ix.netcom.com(John Grabowski) wrote:
>However, many a classical composer has lifted a tune from another
>composer's work for his own piece.
True. Mahler's First Symphony quotes many previous works, but he has
talent to back it up. The same can't be said about John Williams.
John M Conway
In article <01bc17b6$6e830be0$0735a098@default>, wz...@rc.net says...
> One widely recognized similarity in composition exists between George
> Gershwin's
> "I' ve Got Rhythm" and the third movement of William Grant Still's earlier
> "Symphony
> No. 1 (Afro-American)". Everyone who has heard the pieces played in quick
> succession in my presence has perceived striking similarity between them.
Wasn't Gershwin's IGR also the "chassis" on which the Flintstones' theme
melody was built??
JMC
Petrushka
In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk> fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines) writes:
>From: fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines)
>Subject: Blatant rip-offs of other music
>Date: 9 Feb 1997 18:25:46 GMT
>I'm doing a radio show over Easter which will feature cuts of music
>blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
>opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
>Schumann's 4th symphony.
>Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
>off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
>Please post or e-mail them.
>Thanks
>--
> -Matt Raines
> e-mail : M.N.R...@warwick.ac.uk
> URL : http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~fruml/
> Tel : +44 (0)1203 692092 (Room 101)
> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
> The 963 Classical Hour Thursdays 11am 106.1 FM
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> W963 FM - University Radio Warwick
> Broadcasting to Coventry, Kenilworth and beyond
You could always try the thievery of Borodin's Polovetsian Dances...the slow
theme was used for the 30's (?) pop song "Stranger in Paradise." Both pieces
should be quite easy to find.
Petrushka
Don Patterson
Of course it can. His talent lies in a different genre. Stop comparing
apples and oranges.
--
Don Patterson <don...@erols.com>
"The President's Own"
United States Marine Band
The views expressed are my own and in no way reflect
those of the U.S. Marine Band or the Marine Corps.
T.G. Rouse
Fumio Hayasaka's score to Seven Samurai (Kurosawa, 1954) borrowed the
main theme from Sibelius' En Saga, Op. 9 (1893/1902).
Rob Hudson
In article <5dob5c$c...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>, joh...@ix.netcom.com(John
Grabowski) wrote:
> Oh for crying out loud. Horner didn't "rip off" the Gayne in Aliens.
> It's used outright, and is clearly labeled in the credits. Geeze, I
> guess Alex North ripped off "The Blue Danube" for 2001, then, eh?
Check your credits again. Horner never acknowledges his Khachaturian lift
(also used in Patriot Games and Clear and Present Danger), nor does he
credit the Shostakovich 14th Symphony lift from the same film, or the
Prokofiev "Ivan the Terrible" or the Faure Requiem from Glory, or the
Shostakovich 5th (3rd movement, note for note, several shameless minutes
long) from the Clancy films. If that isn't "ripping off", then I don't
know what is.
Maybe you're think of Goldsmith's CREDITED use of the Hanson Romantic
Symphony at the end of the original Alien film.
-- rob
___ __
/ _ \ ___ / / Rob Hudson .................. rhu...@why.net
/ , _// _ \ / _ \ .............................................
/_/|_| \___//_.__/ ............. http://www.why.net/home/rhudson
John Grabowski
In <33010452...@news.netnitco.net> ke...@fisinet.mail.com (Kevin)
writes:
>joh...@ix.netcom.com(John Grabowski) wrote:
>
>>However, many a classical composer has lifted a tune from another
>>composer's work for his own piece.
>
>True. Mahler's First Symphony quotes many previous works, but he has
>talent to back it up. The same can't be said about John Williams.
What's that supposed to mean? Mahler wrote symphonies. Williams
writes film music. They require two different "talents." Mahler's
music as it stands wouldn't make good film music. To give another
example, many great writers found (to their surprise) that they could
not make it as advertising copywriters, even though they could write
novels. Two different sets of talents.
John
John Grabowski
In <3300E6...@geocities.com> James Southall
<jsou...@geocities.com> writes:
>> That said, Horner's score to "Clear and Present Danger" is said to
>> have a bit that sounds like the third movement of Shostokovitch's
>> Fifth Symphony.
>
>Isn't "Apollo 13" just meant to be "Clear and Present Danger", with
very
>little attempt to mask the changes?
>
>I don't have the score to the latter, so I couldn't comment, but the
>trailer for A13 was scored with C&PD music...
Trailers aren't scored. They are usually cut before the music has been
finished, and often either outside source music or other film music is
used for them (i.e., "Angels in the Outfield" had music from "The
Natural.")
John
John Grabowski
In <S1078395.7...@cedarville.edu> S107...@cedarville.edu
(Petrushka) writes:
>
>In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>
fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines) writes:
>>From: fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M N Raines)
>>Subject: Blatant rip-offs of other music
>>Date: 9 Feb 1997 18:25:46 GMT
>
>>blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
>>opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
>>Schumann's 4th symphony.
>
>>Does anyone have any suggestions of music that is blatantly ripped
>>off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
>>Please post or e-mail them.
>
>>Thanks
>
>>--
>> -Matt Raines
>
>> e-mail : M.N.R...@warwick.ac.uk
>> URL : http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~fruml/
>> Tel : +44 (0)1203 692092 (Room 101)
>
>> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
>> The 963 Classical Hour Thursdays 11am 106.1 FM
>> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>> W963 FM - University Radio Warwick
>> Broadcasting to Coventry, Kenilworth and beyond
>
Dances...the slow
>theme was used for the 30's (?) pop song "Stranger in Paradise." Both
pieces
>should be quite easy to find.
>
>Petrushka
How's about Borodin being "ripped off" for the Broadway show "Kismet"?
It *was* acknowledged, however.
John
Patrick Lien
In article <32FFD2...@erols.com>, sdf...@erols.com wrote:
> Carl Tait wrote:
> >
> > In article <5dl4ra$g...@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
> > Mr M N Raines <fr...@news.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > >off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> >
> > "Mars" from "The Planets" by Holst was clearly the basis for
> > "Darth Vader's Death Polka" (or whatever the hell it's called)
> > from John Williams's score for _Star Wars_.
>
For an even more striking (and actually documented) similarity to
"Mars," try Edelman's Overture to Star Trek VI (under the opening
credits). Both utilize a percussive, martial beat rhythm in triplet,
presented first in the percussion (snare drum in Trek, timpani and
strings col legno in Mars), to be taken up subsequently by brass.
Not only that, but Edelman also borrows from Stravinsky's Firebird
introduction through the use of a meandering bass line, also in
triplet, in the minor mode. In both cases, measure 2 is a repeat of
measure one; measure 3 offers a variation, and then back to the
original pattern in measure 4. Though in Firebird the bass line moves
down then up, and in Trek 6 the bass line moves up then down, the
similarity is unmistakable. (The beginning of the Overture to Trek 6
also throws in a choir singing in an appropriately "cosmic" manner.
From Neptune perhaps? :-)
Why is this "documented?" Because in the soundtrack album liner
notes, the director Nicholas Meyer writes about his collaboration with
Edelman and how he mentioned the opening to Firebird as the "sort of
foreboding sounds I had in mind," and how this film was markedly
darker and more martial than previous Trek installments. Meyer
originally tried to adapt "The Planets" suite as the soundtrack, but
that ultimately proved economically (if not artistically) unfeasible.
The bottom line is, many film composers are given "direction" and
suggestions by a film's director. These directors often temp track
with classical music, and in some cases play classical music on the
movie set to establish the mood for a scene. The composer, in an
attempt to avoid the label of being "difficult to work with," will
give the director what he wants. [In the case of Kubrick/North and
2001, Kubrick ended up using the classical pieces he temped in the
actual soundtrack, in lieu of North's commissioned score, much to the
dismay and surprise of the composer at the film's premiere. (Anecdote
possibly apocryphal. I can't remember where I read it)]
===========================
Patrick Lien
pl...@ct2.nai.net
pl...@skandia.com
http://w3.nai.net/~plien/
ULS: uls2.microsoft.com
Bradley Kent
On 11 Feb 1997 20:32:25 GMT, joh...@ix.netcom.com(John Grabowski) wrote:
>In <Yn0AFUqSMUF=1cp...@transarc.com> Jim_...@transarc.com writes:
>>
>>dav...@earthlink.net writes:
>>> The worst rip-off that I can think of, one that actually had me
>cringing
>>> in the theatre, was James Horner's lift of the Gayane Ballet adagio
>at
>>> the beginning of Aliens.
>>
You need to see "The Hudsucker Proxy" Khachaturian's Spartacus and Gayane
are used with great effect throughout the movie. Odd movie but I'd recommend
it for the music if nothing else. (I didn't watch the credits).
Back to film music. I'm a big Danny Elfman fan, but the begining of the
Batman theme equals the beginning of Hindersmith by Mathis der Mahler (or is
that Mathis der Mahler by Hindersmith?)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Bradley Kent + Home-Page: +
+ kbr...@math.okstate.edu + http://www.math.okstate.edu/~kbradle +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael P. Mossey
Disney's _Fantasia_ has a whole *bunch* of music that's just darn
similar to things I've heard elsewhere. The stuff really reminds me
of _Rite_of_Spring_, _Night_On_Bald_Mountain_, some Bach, jeez who
wrote the score?
MM
Richard Wiseman
Matthias Schneider wrote:
> Gabriel Yared used whole passages note-by-note from Prokofiev's "Romeo and
> Juliet" in either his film music score for "Wings of Courage" or "Map of the
> Human Heart" (I don't remember right now which one it was).
I was just wondering... I saw WINGS OF COURAGE last year (that's the
IMAX thing, right?) and I'm sure I thought how good the soundtrack was,
although it might have been a different IMAX (the Grand Canyon one).
Well, anyhow, does anyone know the music to either of these, because
I'm sure one of them was really good?
I may have asked in a music shop whether the soundtrack was available
and been told it wasn't because the demand wasn't enough. Sorry to be
so vague, but in 48 years I'll be 70, so my memory's starting to go...
--
Richard
Jeffrey Wheeler
ke...@fisinet.mail.com (Kevin) wrote:
>joh...@ix.netcom.com(John Grabowski) wrote:
>>However, many a classical composer has lifted a tune from another
>>composer's work for his own piece.
>True. Mahler's First Symphony quotes many previous works, but he has
>talent to back it up. The same can't be said about John Williams.
Through what means did you come by this hypothesis?
Jeffrey Wheeler
sha...@bellsouth.net
Tom Daish
> > 3.James Newton Howard- Waterworld ; James Horner- Willow
I have both Willow and Waterworld and can't for the life of me identify
any blatent rippping off. There is certainly some similarity, but that
is because they are both fantasy adventure scores.
Tom.
Galeazzo Ciano
In article <S1078395.7...@cedarville.edu>, S107...@cedarville.edu
(Petrushka) wrote:
> You could always try the thievery of Borodin's Polovetsian Dances...the slow
> theme was used for the 30's (?) pop song "Stranger in Paradise." Both pieces
> should be quite easy to find.
>
> Petrushka
It seems to me, and I may be incorrect, that the rip-off was much larger
than just one song. Borodine's (with Rimsky-Korsakoff and Glazounoff)
opera "Prince Igor" - the source of the Polovetsian Dances, was
transmogrified into the musical "Kismet," music and all.
ciano
Rogerio Brito
ta...@news.cs.columbia.edu (Carl Tait) wrote:
>"Mars" from "The Planets" by Holst was clearly the basis for
>"Darth Vader's Death Polka" (or whatever the hell it's called)
>from John Williams's score for _Star Wars_.
It seems that "Mars" is also the basis to the song "Am I
Evil?", by Diamond Head.
[]s, Roger...
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Rogerio Brito - rbr...@ime.usp.br - http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito
"Master, Master, where's the dreams that I've been after?
Master, Master, you promised only lies!
Laughter, laughter, all I hear or see is laughter.
Laughter, laughter, laughing at my cries."
James Hetfield (Metallica), Master of Puppets
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Graham Sanders
Galeazzo Ciano wrote:
Borodine's (with Rimsky-Korsakoff and Glazounoff)
> opera "Prince Igor" - the source of the Polovetsian Dances, was
> transmogrified into the musical "Kismet," music and all.
>
> ciano
Not just Prince Igor. 2nd String Qt wound up as 'Baubles, Bangles and
Beads'. Kismet aka Borrowed From Borodin.
Mark Starr
Here are two example that are NOT blatent rip-offs.
Russian-born conductor Igor Markevitch was also a composer of note. His
best known score is the ballet "Icare," which he composed for Njinsky's
Ballets Russes. Bela Bartok heard a performance of Markevitch's
"Icare," and was more than impressed with it. Subsequently, Bartok
wrote Markevitch a letter (I have seen the original) explaining that he
was fascinated by one particular musical idea in the ballet and also
Markevitch's innovative way of developing it and organizing it. He said
that the section in "Icare" had stimulated his imagination to come up
with a similar idea and a similar techique for utilizing it--and he
specifically asked Markevitch's permission to use this idea and
technique in a new work he was currently composing--"Music for Strings,
Percussion and Celeste." And if one compares the two scores today, one
can indeed find sections with beneath-the-surface (but not easily
audible) similarities. What is interesting is Bartok's exquisite
sensibility in asking Markevitch's permission to include this small
section of music that only vaguely follows a procedural idea by another
composer.
The other example is equally interesting, but unfortunately I don't
remember all the key facts. As I recall, Rachmanninov did not compose
the famous "Big Tune" in his Second Piano Concerto (a.k.a. "Full Moon
and Empty Arms.") He borrowed the melody from some obscure piece by
some obscure Russian composer--whose name completely escapes me for the
moment. While he supposedly openly acknowledged and credited the
composition of this melody to the other composer, for some reason no
such credit appears in my orchestral score of the concerto.
Regards,
Mark Starr
David Brooks,139,7233
joh...@ix.netcom.com(John Grabowski) writes:
>>You could always try the thievery of Borodin's Polovetsian
>Dances...the slow
>>theme was used for the 30's (?) pop song "Stranger in Paradise." Both
>pieces
>>should be quite easy to find.
>>
>>Petrushka
>
>It *was* acknowledged, however.
Umm, Stranger in Paradise *is* from Kismet.
As others have pointed out, Kismet also mined from the 2nd String Quartet
(twice, with a meter change for "And This is my Beloved"). Plus, as I
haven't seen listed yet, "Only Lovers Know" from "On the Steppes of Central
Asia".
And, so what. The show's authors were open about the borrowing. I don't
know whether that would qualify Kismet for the original author's request,
or disqualify it.
After all, if a borrow isn't obvious, than it would be no good for the
radio show. And, if it is obvious, the borrower would not be able to claim
originality for long.
--
David Brooks, QA Manager, Desktop Engineering dbr...@opengroup.org
The Open Group <URL:http://www.opengroup.org/~dbrooks/>
Commit planned giving and daily acts of compassion.
Peter Craig
The Goonies sounds a lot like The Flight of the Bumblebee by
Rimsky-Korsakov. Well, at least the music when the kids are going down
the water slide sounds like the bumblebee song. Just listen to the bass
of the bumblebee song.
Justin Craig
pcr...@ix.netcom.com
Cramnella
Hindersmith?
Kevin
pl...@ct2.nai.net.--- (Patrick Lien) wrote:
>For an even more striking (and actually documented) similarity to
>"Mars," try Edelman's Overture to Star Trek VI (under the opening
>credits). Both utilize a percussive, martial beat rhythm in triplet,
>presented first in the percussion (snare drum in Trek, timpani and
>strings col legno in Mars), to be taken up subsequently by brass.
Didn't that sci-fi serise "V" use music similar to the opening of "The
Planets"? Or maybe it was "The Planets" . . . I never watched the
show.
Mike Coldewey
Actually, at present writing John Williams has lots more talent than
Mahler, who is dead, and has none.
Mike
Adam C. Komisaruk
A few more items:
(1) The soundtrack to Ken Russell's film "Crimes of Passion" uses themes from
Dvorak's "New World" Symphony. Never could quite fathom that one.
(2) Delius' "A Mass of Life" has a melody at one point that sounds an awful
lot like "Blue Moon" (which he could have heard during his years in Florida as
an orange farmer)!! It's just after the big choral opening to Part II.
(3) Composers stole material not only from each other, but from themselves
(Handel's "Zadok the Priest" / "Hallelujah" comes to mind).
Sashi Alexandra German
First, I'd like to say that I have enjoyed the discussion on the "rip-off"
aspect of music. Very informative.
Second, one of the big ones I recall is a track from James Horner's "Star Trek
III: The Search for Spock." It's when Kirk & Co. are stealing the Enterprise
-- the sequence begins with about 30 seconds taken right out of the Perkofiev
ballet "Romeo & Juliet." It's so unbelievebly a blatant rip-off,
note-for-note.
My problem is that Romeo & Julet is excellent... and a good action part was
taken...
Then there's always Horner (as much as I like him) ripping off his OWN music
time and time again. Very sad (and boring at times).
--
-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-
SASHI ALEXANDRA GERMAN
Commodore, USS Thagard, Philadelphia, PA (USA) Star Trek Club
Starfleet Region-7 Chief of Staff
Member of "Now Voyager" - that fantastic Kate Mulgrew fan club!
sa...@feith.com
-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-
Graham Sanders
Mike Coldewey wrote: John Williams has lots more talent than
> Mahler, who is dead, and has none.
>
> Mike
Dunno. Heard he's still de-composing.
Richard Wiseman
Mark Starr wrote:
>
> Here are two example that are NOT blatent rip-offs.
>
Is that, they're not rip-offs or they're not blatant? ;-)
--
Richard
Mark Starr
That one piece of music may recall in a listener's mind another piece by
a different composer does not necessarily mean that the "ripper" copied
or even knew about the other piece. When claims of plagiarism get to
court, the first fact that either side must establish is the reality of
a deliberate act of copying, not just a resemblence. For example, I've
always heard a strong resemblence between the first few notes of John
Williams' famous theme for "Jaws" and the advance of the Teutonic troops
in the equally famous "Battle on the Ice" from Prokofiev's music for
Eisenstein's film "Alexander Nevsky." Even though one could easily make
up a case for means, opportunity and possible motive, I--and I believe
also a judge and jury--would never accept a charge of plagiarism in this
case.
Regards,
Mark Starr
Tom Daish
Alan J. Briker wrote:
> > > blatantly copied from someone else. For example, I will play the
> > > opening of the _Willow_ theme by James Horner, then the opening of
> > > Schumann's 4th symphony.
> > >
> > > off (I use this phrase because I can't spell plagiarism)?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
>
> Phantom of the Opera.
I was under the impression that "Battle in the Mutara Nebula" from Star
Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn by James Horner was also very similar to the
Prokofiev piece.
Tom.
Mike Coldewey
Jim_...@transarc.com
ke...@fisinet.mail.com (Kevin) writes:
> joh...@ix.netcom.com(John Grabowski) wrote:
>
> >However, many a classical composer has lifted a tune from another
> >composer's work for his own piece.
>
> True. Mahler's First Symphony quotes many previous works, but he has
> talent to back it up. The same can't be said about John Williams.
Nonsense. Williams may not be on Mahler's level, but he certainly does
have talent. He's written a number of very good movie scores.
******************************************************************
Jim Mann jm...@transarc.com
Transarc Corporation
Technical Writer -- Encina Programming Documentation
http://www.transarc.com/~jmann/
Where would conversation be, if we were not allowed to exchange our
minds freely and to abuse our neighbours from time to time?
-- Dr. Stephen Maturin
John Grabowski
In <330329...@asset-intertech.com> Mike Coldewey
HEY! That's plagiarized!!!!!
John