RFD: rec.music.tori-amos
John M. Grohol
The First Request For Discussion (RFD) on the Creation of
................... REC.MUSIC.TORI-AMOS ......................
Note: Discussion on this RFD should occur on "news.groups"
Introduction
------------
Tori Amos is a singer/songwriter who has been on the
"alternative" music scene for the past couple of years.
It has only been recently, though, that she has gained worldwide
attention with her first major-label solo album, Little Earthquakes,
released in 1991 (Atlantic, 7 82358-2). Since then, she has released
numerous singles and another album, "Under the Pink."
Few singer/songwriters exist today that capture the raw emotion in
both the studio and especially in live performances as does Ms. Amos.
It is perhaps because she writes and sings about emotion-laden topics
(such as being sexually abused) that she has gained such attention.
Or perhaps it is because of the near-religious silence that is
the norm for her audiences during her live performances, as she sits
in front of a piano singing her lyrics. Whatever the reason,
Tori Amos has become a popular singer and enjoys a loyal and large
following throughout the world.
Rationale
---------
Fans of the female singer, Tori Amos, have enjoyed their own
mailing list for over the past 3 years (r...@gradient.cis.upenn.edu)
(rdt stands for Really Deep Thoughts, a lyric from a song of hers
and the name of her fan magazine). In that time, the list
has grown to include 974 subscribers and averages anywhere
from 30k to 60k of messages per day of messages in digest form. Once
this digest was always one part; now it's always a two-parter, and
sometimes three parts of 20-30k each. In digest form, this
discussion on Tori Amos is difficult and time-consuming to read
and no longer is an efficient way to carry on discussion of
Tori Amos. Average digests have approximately 800 messages/month,
or about 27 messages/day.
No gateway between the mailing list and the proposed newsgroup
is included in this proposal because of the resources needed and,
more importantly, because the mailing list's digests are already
too large. Adding every post posted to a mainstream Usenet newsgroup
to the digest would make it virtually unreadable and increase
the trafffic on the mailing list anywhere from a minimum of
100% to 500%. Past evidence also suggests that this might not be
very successful.
The name, rec.music.tori-amos is preferred over the more obscure
rec.music.rdt because the guidelines suggest names that are clear
and easy to find in relation to the subject matter which is discussed
in the newsgroup. While at least one other mailing list cum newsgroup
decided to keep it's cryptic mailing-list name, rdt relays very little
information except to "in" fans of Tori Amos. As a newsgroup, we'd
like to attract all fans, especially those who might not recognize
the newsgroup's name otherwise.
This serves as the formal Request For Discussion (RFD)
on the creation of rec.music.tori-amos.
Proposed Charter
----------------
Name: rec.music.tori-amos (unmoderated)
Description: Discussion of the female singer/songwriter Tori Amos.
Charter:
This newsgroup is for the discussion of the female
singer/songwriter, Tori Amos, and her works. Topics for discussion
can range from her latest album, cover songs she has performed,
recent live performances, B-sides, her personal life,
upcoming concert dates and information, interviews with Ms. Amos,
rare albums and any non-commercial Tori Amos-related items
for sale by private individuals. Flames and non-Tori Amos
related topics would not be appropriate subjects for this newsgroup.
Notes on this Request For Discussion (RFD)
------------------------------------------
This RFD is being posted on July 27, 1994 to the following newsgroups:
news.groups
news.announce.newgroups
alt.music.alternative
alt.music.alternative.female
and the Tori Amos mailing list:
r...@gradient.cis.upenn.edu
and may be freely distributed to any other groups or mailing lists
where it might be of relevance. Please leave the Followup-To:
header intact. Persons not able to communicate or post directly
to Usenet may mail their comments or questions to:
gro...@alpha.acast.nova.edu
** All pertinent disucssion relating to this RFD **
** should take place on news.groups, hence **
** follow-ups have been directed there. I strongly **
** urge readers to limit their discussion on this **
** RFD to news.groups, as is the recognized **
** convention. **
Call For Votes (CFV)
--------------------
The CFV is expected to be posted in approximately 30 days,
on or around July 27, 1994.
The CFV is expected to be conducted by an independent vote-taker,
arranged through Ron "Asbestos" Dippold (rdip...@qualcomm.com).
The CFV will be sent out to the same newsgroups (listed above)
and mailing list (r...@gradient.cis.upenn.edu)
as the RFD was sent to. Details on voting will be posted in the CFV.
-jmg
Ethan Douglas Straffin
Brian Bloom <bri...@netcom.com> wrote:
>I think rec status is uncalled for and would vote no for this
>group. Since there is no proposed gateway between the rdt list
>and the USENET group, you'll have two complete forums based on
>Tori Amos. Either settle for an alt-group or leave it as just
>a list...
Brian, I understand your reservations. Are you on the Tori list? I
ask because I know we're both on Ecto (the Happy Rhodes list) and
there's a good deal of crossover. Unfortunately, I have almost never
read the Tori list recently, for two reasons:
1) It's available as a digest only, which makes it almost impossible
to keep up with conversations and reply conveniently, and
2) With almost 1000 people on the list, the traffic has gotten
completely out of hand.
It's a problem for me, since I used to enjoy RDT way back when, and I
contributed to it regularly. Now I get tens of kilobytes of digested
RDT mail every day, and it's a tremendous hassle to try to separate
the wheat from the chaff. Reading the whole thing is out of the
question. Posting is seldom worthwhile because I know I'll miss out
on a great deal of context from both before and after my post.
I know these problems won't magically disappear with a newsgroup, but
at least we'll have better tools at our disposal for dealing with the
flood, such as threading and killfiles. And I'd also suggest that the
expected levels of interest and participation in this group are far
too great to justify the lousy propagation that an alt group would
provide. Finally, a Usenet history lesson will show that the idea of
creating an alt group and moving to rec if interest demands it is
right out.
While I share the concerns about splitting of the rec.music hierarchy,
I think it's justified by this amount of traffic, and would support it
regardless of my personal feelings about the artist. I urge those of
you who are planning to vote on this group to do the same.
Ethan
Joy Division
You wanna take up more space to have ravings about Tori Amos? Give me a
BREAK!
You think that because it's tori amos that she deserves extra space on
the net? Fuck that.
you are majorly lame.
get a life and quit worshipping some woman that you don't even know
you fucking loser.
JD
Michael Handler
> You wanna take up more space to have ravings about Tori Amos? Give me a
> BREAK!
Yep. We'd like our own space, so we don't get bothered by
rantings from morons like you.
> You think that because it's tori amos that she deserves extra space on
> the net? Fuck that.
No, it's because her mailing list has over a thousand people on
it, and is becoming near-impossible to read.
> you are majorly lame.
Yes, but at least we can form sentences with words of more than
one syllable, as well as coherent and sensible arguments.
> get a life and quit worshipping some woman that you don't even know
> you fucking loser.
[ Oops, "worshipping" has more than one, my mistake... ]
Wassa matter, huh? Pissed off because you couldn't get
rec.music.joy-division passed or something? Why don't you get a life, and
stop ranting when you have no justification.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Brandt Handler <gre...@netaxs.com>
Philadelphia, PA <mh...@andrew.cmu.edu>
Currently at CMU, Pittsburgh, PA PGP v2.6 public key on request
Boycott Canter & Siegel <<NSA>> 1984: We're Behind Schedule
Molly Bowling
>You wanna take up more space to have ravings about Tori Amos? Give me a
>BREAK!
>You think that because it's tori amos that she deserves extra space on
>the net? Fuck that.
Hmmmm, if you don't like it, skip articles with the word "Tori" in them?
Kill files aren't all *that* difficult, either.
--
[X] Molly Bowling
m...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu
Why do I put my two cents in, while you give me a penny for my thoughts?
Someone's making a penny here.
Michael Handler
> dpa...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Joy Division) writes:
> >You wanna take up more space to have ravings about Tori Amos? Give me a
> >BREAK!
> >You think that because it's tori amos that she deserves extra space on
> >the net? Fuck that.
> Hmmmm, if you don't like it, skip articles with the word "Tori" in them?
> Kill files aren't all *that* difficult, either.
Personally, I think the funniest part about Mr. Division is that
he obviously objects to all the Tori traffic on USENET, yet he is against
a newsgroup that would virutally ensure that he would never see any of it
unless he wanted to.
Then again, maybe just the knowledge that it exists out there
galls him...
Ethan Straffin
dpa...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Joy Division) writes:
:You wanna take up more space to have ravings about Tori Amos? Give me a
I assume you're responding to me, Mr. Division. Clearly this is
flamebait, because nobody who actually wanted to be taken seriously would
accuse somebody of "worshipping" a musician, then turn around and post
using a band's name as his own. But I'll bite, because I'm curious. I
don't recall crossposting to alt.stupidity. Where exactly did you pick up
this thread?
Perhaps you're not familiar with the RFD which I was discussing. I'd be
glad to email you a copy. Keep posting this kind of crap, and somebody
will probably send you several hundred.
Ethan
--
Some Ethans may look alike. Please have your claim check ready.
Tay Jin Shandy
: You wanna take up more space to have ravings about Tori Amos? Give me a
: BREAK!
Where dear? Your pasty face? Much obliged! *POW!* :)
: You think that because it's tori amos that she deserves extra space on
: the net? Fuck that.
Well, it beats fucking YOU! ;)
: you are majorly lame.
Just a micro-infarction on the right tibia. We'll get better toots. Can't
say the same about your face (or that atrocious attitude of yours *tut
tut*)...|>
: get a life and quit worshipping some woman that you don't even know
: you fucking loser.
..and that coming from a total idiot who has nothing better to do than
to lug around that soooo-very heavy flame-thrower of his. Hey JD, don't
you ever get hernia? By the way, most of us happen to be intelligent
sentient beings who lead happy healthy lives unlike some malcontent
loser. =]
: JD
And he calls himself joyful. Not even a smirk when he flamed...:}
"So if he died today he'd not be the happy phantom!"
- almost Tori Amos
Bob MacDowell
Every once in awhile, you come upon words so potent, so well considered,
so compelling that there is, really, no discussion left to make. Words
that deserve, well, more than a .sigline, a *bronzing*, if there is such
a thing. These are such words.
Joy Division, I am speechless. Your profound argument has reversed my
position, nay, set it in stone. I can no longer support this group.
-Bob
P.S. I'm KIDDING
Chris Gonna' Find Ray Charles Tate
digest, due to its size. I don't have that kind of time to throw around
winding through 50K/day of text just to find the few nuggets of interest.
But newsgroups are considerably easier to navigate; I *would* read
a Tori Amos group, were one to be created.
I say go for it. Give us rec.music.tori-amos. The only alternative
I can see, which would be to gateway the digest to someplace like
rec.music.gaffa (whose charter ostensibly supports discussion of any
'alternative' music; Tori gets mentioned there fairly frequently), is
absurd; the volume on the mailing list is unmanageably high.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Tate | "There are 0 grams of fat in Mountain Dew.
MSD, Inc. | That means it's good for you, right?"
fi...@faxcsl.dcrt.nih.gov | - Mike Wellman, in c.s.m.p
Brian Bloom
>But newsgroups are considerably easier to navigate; I *would* read
>a Tori Amos group, were one to be created.
>I say go for it. Give us rec.music.tori-amos. The only alternative
>I can see, which would be to gateway the digest to someplace like
>rec.music.gaffa (whose charter ostensibly supports discussion of any
>'alternative' music; Tori gets mentioned there fairly frequently), is
>absurd; the volume on the mailing list is unmanageably high.
No, go for alt.music.tori-amos. I doubt that you will get
enough support for a rec. group. I personally would vote 'no'
for it.. And I *like* Tori!
--
__ ____ __ ____ __ __ (__==__)
/\ \ / \_\ / /\ / \ \ / |\ / /\ (oo) ( moo.)
/ \_\ / /\ |_| / / /| /\ \ \ / ||/ / / /-------\/ -'
/ /\ | |\ \/ /_/_ / / / \ \/ \ \ / |/ / / / | U.T.||
/ \/ |_| \ __ \_\ /_/ / \ /\ \_\ / /| / / * ||----||
/ /\ ./_/ \ \ \/_/_\_\/ \ \ \/_// / | / / ^^ ^^
\ \/ |_| \ \_\ /_/\ \ \_\ /_/ /|_/ / Br!an Bloom
\__/_/ \/_/ \_\/ \/_/ \_\/ \_\/ bri...@netcom.com
.. but music hides me so well, ..and reveals me.. oh well - HR
Michael Handler
> No, go for alt.music.tori-amos. I doubt that you will get
> enough support for a rec. group. I personally would vote 'no'
> for it.. And I *like* Tori!
There are over 1000 people on the mailing list, and so far the
reaction to the proposal has been overwhelmingly positive. We Have Enough
Support For A Rec Group (TM).
Bob MacDowell
>I say go for it. Give us rec.music.tori-amos. The only alternative
>I can see, which would be to gateway the digest to someplace like
>rec.music.gaffa (whose charter ostensibly supports discussion of any
>'alternative' music; Tori gets mentioned there fairly frequently), is
>absurd; the volume on the mailing list is unmanageably high.
Hmmm. This gives me an idea.
While it's certain that gatewaying the RDT mail list to the newsgroup
would be a BAD idea, I don't really see anything wrong with posting
the digest to the newsgroup. Two or three 500-line postings per day,
that people could drop in their killfiles if they wanted to, or sidestep
near as easily.
-Bob
Michael Handler
> While it's certain that gatewaying the RDT mail list to the newsgroup
> would be a BAD idea, I don't really see anything wrong with posting
> the digest to the newsgroup. Two or three 500-line postings per day,
> that people could drop in their killfiles if they wanted to, or sidestep
> near as easily.
Interesting. Originally, I was for the gated newsgroup idea -- I
have since dropped the idea because no one else wanted it. When the idea
came up, people said that they wanted the newsgroup and the mailing list
to evolve into two separate entities. Certainly, there is a family
feeling on RDT (or at least there was...) and we'd like to keep that.
Also, sometimes people make offers for mailing list members that they
wouldn't want to post to newsgroups [ like Jason B. does... ] because
they'd be swamped with requests. Also, it seems kind of strange, because
the people without Usenet access would never see the responses to their
messages on the newsgroup....
The way it seems to be evolving is this: everyone on the Net has
access to the mailing list, and they can subscribe if they want. OTOH,
not everyone has News access. Me and and a few others have volunteered to
forward interesting posts from the newsgroup to the digest. I think it
could work that way.
Anthony, if you're reading this -- what do you think? Personally,
I'd want to see what RDT thinks as well...
David Johnson
: Brian Bloom (bri...@netcom.com) wrote:
: > No, go for alt.music.tori-amos. I doubt that you will get
: > enough support for a rec. group. I personally would vote 'no'
: > for it.. And I *like* Tori!
: There are over 1000 people on the mailing list, and so far the
: reaction to the proposal has been overwhelmingly positive. We Have Enough
: Support For A Rec Group (TM).
Actually, I tend to disagree. We'll have to wait for a vote
to see, though. Over a month ago Anthony, the mailing
list owner, took a poll of subscribers in favour of
a newsgroup. I seem to remember him posting that the response
was weak at best. He didn't get enough "yes" support to have
a rec group pass and that was on a mailing list full of fans. Also
the "no" support was quite strong compared to the "yes" support.
Personally, I don't like the idea. Even 1000 fans do not
warrent a newsgroup propegated over all of USENET to such
a huge potential audience.
Also, it was mentioned in alt.config that alt.music.alternative.female
exists as a place where Tori could be discussed but the group
isn't exactly bursting.
I'm a big Tori fan, I collect every single I can get, but
I will vote no.
A better idea would be to find a site willing to re-instate
the bounce format of the Really Deep Thoughts mailing list.
(Sorry for the poor spelling/typing. I shouldn't be
posting this late.)
David Johnson
Owner of the Melissa Etheridge and the Melissa Ferrick mailing
lists
James Alexander Chokey
>enough support for a rec. group.
Well, there's only one way to find out for sure. Clearly, there's
been enough support shown in this discussion to justify moving this proposal
to a CFV, and I suspect that the group-proposer will do just that. Then
we'll know for sure how much support there is for it.
> I personally would vote 'no'
>for it.. And I *like* Tori!
Well, I would vote 'Yes' for it, and I *don't* like her! As far as
I'm concerned, there's no reason not to create this group. There's more
than enough traffic to make it viable, the mailing list for the group is
widely accepted to be at critical mass, the charter is basically sound,
and the creation of the group would not signficantly affect any other
group in the big-7, nor would it create any new subhierarchies or set any
precedents. In fact, it's one of the soundest proposals I've seen on news.
groups in the past couple months.
-- Jim C.
==========================================================================
| James A. Chokey jch...@leland.stanford.edu |
| |
| Alas! Coquettes are but too rare. |
| -- Disraeli |
==========================================================================
James Alexander Chokey
Bob MacDowell <bob...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>While it's certain that gatewaying the RDT mail list to the newsgroup
>would be a BAD idea, I don't really see anything wrong with posting
>the digest to the newsgroup. Two or three 500-line postings per day,
>that people could drop in their killfiles if they wanted to, or sidestep
>near as easily.
This is an *excellent* idea. The same thing is done on rec.crafts.
brewing with the digest of the home-brewing mailing list. A copy of the
entire digest is posted as a single article on the newsgroup. Those who
want to read it there can, and those who don't can skip over it. It's
a marvelously simple, almost ingeniously simple, answer to the gateway-
or-no-gateway question.
James Alexander Chokey
David Johnson <dave@hundun> wrote:
>
>Personally, I don't like the idea. Even 1000 fans do not
>warrent a newsgroup propegated over all of USENET to such
>a huge potential audience.
Well, yes and no. Historically, the voting guidleine that
stipulates that there must be at least 100 more yes votes than no
votes was designed to insure that there was more enough interest
in a given topic to make the creation of a group viable. The standard
answer to the question "When does a mailing-list become large enough
to merit consideration as a newsgroup?" had, until very recently, been
"Once it reaches 100 subscribers."
Of course, the net has grown dramatically since in the past couple
of years, and is growing at an exponential rate, according to most major
newspapers. Many people have felt that the increased number of net-users
means that the minimum "threshold number" for the mailing-list-to-newsgroup
shift be raised. Others have argued that the numbers should be left
just as they are. The fact that there are more users, so the argument
goes, means that narrower-topic newsgroups are even more viable than they
have been in the past and things should be left just as they are.
It's an interesting debate, and I'm not sure exactly where I
come down on it. However, one thing that I feel very sure about is
that 1000 readers on a mailing list is a whole *damn* lot. I'd be willing
to consider the possibility that the "threshold number" should be raised
from 100. How high should it be raised? To 150? Maybe. To 200? Perhaps,
but that might be pushing it. To 1000? That would be patently ridiculous,
even the staunchest news.groups nay-sayers would agree. (Can you imagine
amending the guidelines so as to require 1000 more YES vots than NO votes
in order to get a group to pass a CFV?) But even if you did raise the
threshold limit to 1000, RDT would *still* meet qualify as worthy of
consideration of movement to a newsgroup. And when one considers that
this is not simply a list with lots of subscribers, but on on which an
inordinate number of subscribers are regular posters, it becomes clear
that the proposal to create rec.music.tori-amos is certainly one which
deserves to be seriously considered and to to be taken to a CFV.
-- Jim C.
==========================================================================
| James A. Chokey jch...@leland.stanford.edu |
| |
| Alas! Coquettes are but too rare. |
| -- Disraeli |
==========================================================================
>
chris williams
Since rec.music.gaffa was mentioned in the previous post, I have to
ask *which* newsgroup you're talking about.
I'm begging anyone who might do it to *not* post it to rec.music.gaffa.
That newsgroup is gatewayed into a mailing list and whoever does it
will get flamed-broiled so quickly and so badly by mailing list readers
that they won't know what hit them. It will Be Bad.
alt.music.alternative.female? yes, or maybe, depending on reaction.
rec.music.gaffa? NononononoNONONONO, never!
Btw, alt.music.ecto would welcome the digests if people flame it here.
It isn't gatewayed to the mailing list so there wouldn't be the rmg
problems.
Vickie (temporarily using Chris's account)
Chris Gonna' Find Ray Charles Tate
>fi...@faxcsl.dcrt.nih.gov (Chris Gonna' Find Ray Charles Tate) writes:
>>
>> I say go for it. Give us rec.music.tori-amos. The only alternative
>> I can see, which would be to gateway the digest to someplace like
>> rec.music.gaffa (whose charter ostensibly supports discussion of any
>> 'alternative' music; Tori gets mentioned there fairly frequently), is
>> absurd; the volume on the mailing list is unmanageably high.
>
>No, go for alt.music.tori-amos. I doubt that you will get
>enough support for a rec. group. I personally would vote 'no'
>for it.. And I *like* Tori!
I will not vote for alt.music.tori-amos. Some of us *can't* read alt.
groups, remember?
Point: polling the RDT mailing list about whether the members support
the creation of a newsgroup blatantly ignores the population who reads
USENET, likes Tori Amos, and doesn't know about the existence of the
RDT list. Like me, for example, until recently....
If people on the mailing list are happy with the thought of posting
digests to a newsgroup (e.g. rec.music.gaffa), then that is a somewhat
less demanding (in regards to machine resources used) solution. IMHO
it still has the problem of forcing people to sift through the digests,
rather than using the nifty thread-following approach of newsreaders.
I suspect that a rec.music.tori-amos group would attract a good deal
more readers than the RDT list has. That's a good reason to make it
a real newsgroup.
Someone has already pointed out that there's something of a "community"
feeling on RDT, which some subscribers may feel uncomfortable giving
up - as may happen if RDT is gatewayed directly onto USENET. It's
unclear, however, what the fate of RDT would be were rec.music.tori-amos
to be created. Thoughts?
Bradley M. Kuhn
>But newsgroups are considerably easier to navigate; I *would* read
>a Tori Amos group, were one to be created.
I fell the same. I am on the RDT mailing list and want to get off as soon as
there is a newsgroup. There is lots of interest, and Tori Amos won't be going
away. She is drawing fans from all musical interests and walks of life. This
is definitely a good idea. I would vote yes.
--
-- Bradley M. Kuhn
EMAIL: bk...@cs.loyola.edu, bk...@loyola.edu, bk...@rhlab.com
SNAIL: 100 West Cold Spring Lane, Box: 146, Baltimore, MD 21210
PHONE: 410-617-4356
Michael F. Haynes
^^^^^^^^^^^^
This brought to you by a person who apparently identifies more with a
band than, well, himself...
Well, Mr. Division, presumably you don't much care for Tori Amos' music
much. I take no particular issue with that but find it odd that you can
have such venom and anger towards people "that you don't even know" who
happen to be fans of "some woman that you don't even know."
FWIW, I'd have to agree that the digest is unwieldy at this point. Then
again, so is the National Midnight Star and there's no rec.music.rush
yet. I have no problem with single-artist/band groups if there's
sufficient interest. I'd guess that there's about 20-40 such
groups/artists running around at the moment MANY less than there are
soc.culture groups. So, I would gladly support the creation of r.m.t-a
and I'd even read it too! :)
--
Math Major Michael F. Haynes Bowling Green State U.
UCS Microsupport Technician mha...@andy.bgsu.edu College Bowl Captain
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cut myself on angel hair and baby's breath..."
Sharon Fisher
mammoth 500-line posting eliminates all the advantages of putting it
into news -- which, I thought, was so people could use tools such as
killsfiles on it.
David DeLaney
In fact, this is done currently on rec.music.a-cappella; the Barbershop
mailing list digest is regularly posted there by a subscriber, and nobody
seems to be unhappy with it.
Dave "also, discussion is to take place *only* on news.groups, so I'm setting
followups there; please respect them" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO; VRbeableFUTPLEX
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ for net.legends FAQ+miniFAQs; ftp: cathouse.org
con...@muvms6.wvnet.edu
> Molly Bowling (m...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu) wrote:
>> dpa...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Joy Division) writes:
>
>> >You wanna take up more space to have ravings about Tori Amos? Give me a
>> >BREAK!
>
>> >You think that because it's tori amos that she deserves extra space on
>> >the net? Fuck that.
>
>> Hmmmm, if you don't like it, skip articles with the word "Tori" in them?
>> Kill files aren't all *that* difficult, either.
>
> Personally, I think the funniest part about Mr. Division is that
> he obviously objects to all the Tori traffic on USENET, yet he is against
> a newsgroup that would virutally ensure that he would never see any of it
> unless he wanted to.
you have a strong point. At least the little dry-lipped raggity ann
won't be here anymore...but then again, we still have people talking about
Nirvana, and they have their own net. But shouldn't first priority be given to
the Cure? I mean we've been whining for that since mad Bob has had Mary...
echo
Pete Hartman
>sufficient interest. I'd guess that there's about 20-40 such
>groups/artists running around at the moment MANY less than there are
>soc.culture groups.
Culture generally isn't as transient as pop music.
Pete Hartman
>I fell the same. I am on the RDT mailing list and want to get off as soon as
>there is a newsgroup. There is lots of interest, and Tori Amos won't be going
>away. She is drawing fans from all musical interests and walks of life. This
>is definitely a good idea. I would vote yes.
This same argument was made for Nirvana. I think Kurt Cobain "went away"
pretty effectively, actually.
Until an artist has actually succeeded in demonstrating their staying power
there is absolutely no way to predict it. I think Kate Bush makes another
good counter example. rec.music.gaffa was primarily (though by no means
exclusively) created as a discussion forum for Kate's music, which at the
time it was created was exciting, original, and drawing increasing attention.
Today, many of the old fans don't care any more. Her music still has something
special about it, but I'd bet a large part of that specialness is nostalgia
for an outdated image of Kate herself. At this point, to claim she has
staying power or influence in any way comparable to the beatles, dylan, or
the grateful dead seems to be ridiculous hyperbole. She had a career that
included some incredible albums, but is on its way down the slope of slop.
Tori hasn't reached that slope yet, and may not; but who can tell? I never
would have thought the same person who released _The Dreaming_ and _The
Hounds of Love_ would release some of the junk that's been on the last
couple of Kate albums.....
Mark Miller
>: There are over 1000 people on the mailing list, and so far the
>: reaction to the proposal has been overwhelmingly positive. We Have Enough
>: Support For A Rec Group (TM).
>
>Actually, I tend to disagree. We'll have to wait for a vote
>to see, though. Over a month ago Anthony, the mailing
>list owner, took a poll of subscribers in favour of
>a newsgroup. I seem to remember him posting that the response
>was weak at best. He didn't get enough "yes" support to have
>a rec group pass and that was on a mailing list full of fans. Also
>the "no" support was quite strong compared to the "yes" support.
The RDT must be full of interesting information if their own
subscribers are voting no. Making a newsgroup would significantly
decrease the S/N ratio to almost zero.
>Personally, I don't like the idea. Even 1000 fans do not
>warrent a newsgroup propegated over all of USENET to such
>a huge potential audience.
This is a very good point. Everyone will be wanting a newsgroup for
their favorite musician/band. Several sites simply do not have the
space for this kind of use.
>I'm a big Tori fan, I collect every single I can get, but
>I will vote no.
Same here.
--
Mark Miller "In a world full of people only
ma...@kaiwan.com some want to fly, isn't that crazy?" --Seal
John M. Grohol
>David Johnson <dave@hundun> wrote:
>>Michael Handler (gre...@netaxs.com) wrote:
>>: There are over 1000 people on the mailing list, and so far the
>>: reaction to the proposal has been overwhelmingly positive. We Have Enough
>>: Support For A Rec Group (TM).
>>Personally, I don't like the idea. Even 1000 fans do not
>>warrent a newsgroup propegated over all of USENET to such
>>a huge potential audience.
>This is a very good point. Everyone will be wanting a newsgroup for
>their favorite musician/band. Several sites simply do not have the
>space for this kind of use.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen one iota of proof to back up this
assumption.
>>I'm a big Tori fan, I collect every single I can get, but
>>I will vote no.
>Same here.
And I have yet to see one argument based upon the specifics of *this*
newsgroup proposal. People are instead choosing to argue based upon
assumptions and generalizations which have little basis in reality,
and have even less to do with this proposal. If individuals have some
difficulty with a) the current voting guidelines, b) the propegation of
smaller, more specific groups, c) fill_in_your_gripe_here, then they
should take it up in news.admin.misc.
Plus, I really want to thank everybody who has respected keeping this
discussion on news.groups. I have once again set Followups to that
newsgroup. Please respect the followup line and keep this thread off of
other newsgroups.
-jmg
--
John M. Grohol Co-moderator sci.psychology.research
Center for Psychological Studies, Nova Southeastern University, Florida
gro...@alpha.acast.nova.edu gro...@psy.psych.nova.edu
"Four years and $60,000... Where has it all gone?"
James Alexander Chokey
John M. Grohol <gro...@alpha.acast.nova.edu> wrote:
>ma...@kaiwan.com (Mark Miller) writes:
>
>>This is a very good point. Everyone will be wanting a newsgroup for
>>their favorite musician/band. Several sites simply do not have the
>>space for this kind of use.
>
>Unfortunately, I haven't seen one iota of proof to back up this
>assumption.
That's not surprising, since the claim is simply not true. There
are currently only six single-artist newsgroups in the rec.music.* hierarchy,
and they've been created at a rate of one, or maybe two, per year. The
fear that everyone on the net is going to try to create a rec.music.* group
for his/her favorite band simple is false, pure and simple. No deluge
occured after rec.music.phish (the last single-artist group created in rec.*)
almost two years ago. None occured when rec.music.gaffa was created a year
before that. The "deluge argument" against the creation of this group simply
has no basis in reality whatsoever.
William McBrine
: No deluge occured after rec.music.phish (the last single-artist group
: created in rec.*) almost two years ago.
What about rec.music.rem just a few months ago?
--
William McBrine
wmcb...@clark.net
wmcb...@cap.gwu.edu
James Alexander Chokey
William McBrine <wmcb...@clark.net> wrote:
>
>James Alexander Chokey (jch...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>
>: No deluge occured after rec.music.phish (the last single-artist group
>: created in rec.*) almost two years ago.
>
>What about rec.music.rem just a few months ago?
One group created 20 months later constitutes a deluge? Obviously
this must be some strange use of the the word "deluge" with which I was
previously unfamiliar.
DeLoach
>bk...@greed.loyola.edu (Bradley M. Kuhn) writes:
>Until an artist has actually succeeded in demonstrating their staying power
>there is absolutely no way to predict it. I think Kate Bush makes another
>good counter example. rec.music.gaffa was primarily (though by no means
>exclusively) created as a discussion forum for Kate's music, which at the
I guess this opens up a can of works (or at least a collection of net posts)
on the topic of "Whats makes a good rec.music. group"? Well as long
as there are fans that participate ....then I would say any group/person/
musician would make a good canidate. I wouldn't try to gauge an artists
"staying power" because it is enevitably the FANS that write the net...
if an artists puts out 4 great albums and 5 poopy ones...so be it...but
if there are FANS of an artists who still will "keep the faith" then
it should be a newsgroup. Unfortunately...a lot of people lose interest
in artists and confuse devote fan with gee I like 'em a lot right now but
if they don't give me the product I expect then I'm outta here..
The moral...the artist oriented newsgroup will go on as long as there
is a base of true fans (ie alt.music.frank-zappa...he's EVEN DEAD but
you'll never find more devote Frankheads)that function/post to inform
whats happening with EVERYTHING (not just tour dates/ videos/ imports/
fresh gossip). It should be a place of 48 % information, 48 % personal
injection, and 4 % silly-stuff/misc....
Just my onion,
gcr...@sage.cc
PS I have only heard Toris last two albums and I like them alot...although
I would browse rec.music.Tori....I doubt I would post (maybe for tour dates
and to see who won that Mtv thang :) ) and my intrerest might fade.....
But I don't consider myself a true fan but I know many of you do! so good luck
(bad spelling/grammar/ and all!.....)
William McBrine
: >: No deluge occured after rec.music.phish (the last single-artist group
: >: created in rec.*) almost two years ago.
: >
: >What about rec.music.rem just a few months ago?
: One group created 20 months later constitutes a deluge?
No, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that; just that you missed it when you
referred to the "last single-artist group created". Actually I'm all for
rec.music.tori-amos.
But it does look like the creation rate of such groups is accelerating...
James Alexander Chokey
William McBrine <wmcb...@clark.net> wrote:
>James Alexander Chokey (jch...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>
>: >: No deluge occured after rec.music.phish (the last single-artist group
>: >: created in rec.*) almost two years ago.
>: >
>: >What about rec.music.rem just a few months ago?
>
>: One group created 20 months later constitutes a deluge?
>
>No, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that; just that you missed it when you
>referred to the "last single-artist group created". Actually I'm all for
>rec.music.tori-amos.
I guess I did leave that out. Mea culpa. In a previous post, I
had referred to rec.music.rem and then referred to rec.music.phish as
"the last single-artist group created before that", almost two years
before. I must have dropped the "before that" this time. In any case,
I think the point was clear-- I just hope it didn't get lost in the
confusion.
Tim Stevens
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^
: >You wanna take up more space to have ravings about Tori Amos? Give me a
: >BREAK!
: >You think that because it's tori amos that she deserves extra space on
: >the net? Fuck that.
: >you are majorly lame.
: >get a life and quit worshipping some woman that you don't even know
: >you fucking loser.
: >JD
: This brought to you by a person who apparently identifies more with a
: band than, well, himself...
Take it easy many. Tori is great and the people who like her music have as
much right to have a forum to discuss that music as you have a right to
access the net. I would love to have a group where Tori's music could be
discussed - what ever it is named. Is there a news letter? Anyone with
info, let me know how I can get it please.
Bob MacDowell
>In article <bobmacdC...@netcom.com> bob...@netcom.com (Bob MacDowell) writes:
>>fi...@faxcsl.dcrt.nih.gov (Chris Gonna' Find Ray Charles Tate) writes:
>>
>>>I say go for it. Give us rec.music.tori-amos. The only alternative
>>>I can see, which would be to gateway the digest to someplace like
>>>rec.music.gaffa (whose charter ostensibly supports discussion of any
>>>'alternative' music; Tori gets mentioned there fairly frequently), is
>>>absurd; the volume on the mailing list is unmanageably high.
>>
>>Hmmm. This gives me an idea.
>>
>>While it's certain that gatewaying the RDT mail list to the newsgroup
>>would be a BAD idea, I don't really see anything wrong with posting
>>the digest to the newsgroup. Two or three 500-line postings per day,
>>that people could drop in their killfiles if they wanted to, or sidestep
>>near as easily.
>Since rec.music.gaffa was mentioned in the previous post, I have to
>ask *which* newsgroup you're talking about.
The one under proposal. rec.music.tori-amos.
>I'm begging anyone who might do it to *not* post it to rec.music.gaffa.
>That newsgroup is gatewayed into a mailing list and whoever does it
>will get flamed-broiled so quickly and so badly by mailing list readers
>that they won't know what hit them. It will Be Bad.
Uh, yeah. What Vickie says. Never post large postings to a mail list;
never do it to a newsgroup unless you *know* it's not gatewayed. (and
you'd be amazed the ones that are: rec.railroad is, which drives the
e-mail recipients nuts everytime a railfan photographer posts a gif...)
>Btw, alt.music.ecto would welcome the digests if people flame it here.
>It isn't gatewayed to the mailing list so there wouldn't be the rmg
>problems.
Exactly. I hadn't thought of posting the RDT digests anywhere but
rec.music.tori-amos, but yeah, that would work.
-Bob
Bob MacDowell
dave@hundun (David Johnson) writes:
>: Brian Bloom (bri...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: > No, go for alt.music.tori-amos. I doubt that you will get
>: > enough support for a rec. group. I personally would vote 'no'
>: > for it.. And I *like* Tori!
Just out of curiosity, *why*? If the reason is you don't think it'll get
the votes, then that sounds somewhat self-fulfilling.
>Actually, I tend to disagree. We'll have to wait for a vote
>to see, though. Over a month ago Anthony, the mailing
>list owner, took a poll of subscribers in favour of
>a newsgroup. I seem to remember him posting that the response
>was weak at best.
Actually, polls of mailing list members are not terribly meaningful.
Although they're fans, they tend to be cozy where they are, and many
will misunderstand the proposal as _replacing_ the mailing list, so they
see it as a threat.
>Personally, I don't like the idea. Even 1000 fans do not
>warrent a newsgroup propegated over all of USENET to such
>a huge potential audience.
If alt.fan.debbie.gibson is any indication... the mail list had about
100 readers, and the Arbitron reports a.f.d.g's readership, despite ots
wrectched propogation, as 12,000. That 120:1 ratio between readers and
fans serious enough to get on a mail list.
A conservative 50:1 ratio would put rec.music.tori-amos's readership at
about 50,000. This starts to look more like a newsgroup.
>I'm a big Tori fan, I collect every single I can get, but
>I will vote no.
Why, in general, are fans opposed to this newsgroup?
-Bob, really, I've not understood this and I would like to know.
Vickie Mapes
me>> Since rec.music.gaffa was mentioned in the previous post, I have to
me>> ask *which* newsgroup you're talking about.
bob> The one under proposal. rec.music.tori-amos.
Ok, I was pretty sure that's what you meant :)
me>> I'm begging anyone who might do it to *not* post it to rec.music.gaffa.
me>> That newsgroup is gatewayed into a mailing list and whoever does it
me>> will get flamed-broiled so quickly and so badly by mailing list readers
me>> that they won't know what hit them. It will Be Bad.
bob> Uh, yeah. What Vickie says. Never post large postings to a mail list;
bob> never do it to a newsgroup unless you *know* it's not gatewayed. (and
bob> you'd be amazed the ones that are: rec.railroad is, which drives the
bob> e-mail recipients nuts everytime a railfan photographer posts a gif...)
I've seen the two (rdt digest/rec.music.gaffa) linked more than once,
so I just wanted to be sure that no one takes it upon themselves to
post the digest there. (I didn't know that rec.railroad was gatewayed.
You learn something new every day on the net!)
me>> Btw, alt.music.ecto would welcome the digests if people flame it here.
me>> It isn't gatewayed to the mailing list so there wouldn't be the rmg
me>> problems.
bob> Exactly. I hadn't thought of posting the RDT digests anywhere but
bob> rec.music.tori-amos, but yeah, that would work.
The door's propped open in alt.music.ecto in case it's needed.
Btw, Anthony Kosky, the mailing list adminitrator, asked the rdt readers
their opinions of posting the digests to a newsgroup, but he hasn't yet
told us the response.
Vickie (who will vote yes for rmt-a, as long as it isn't gatewayed)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Vickie Mapes It lives! "My ears are lucky to hear
vic...@pilot.njin.net alt.music.ecto these glorious songs" HR
_________
"Imagination sets in, then |_ _ | _ The Happy Rhodes mailing list
all the voices begin" KB |__|_ ||_| ecto-r...@ns1.rutgers.edu
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