J S Bach / Paul Simon
Dan Schmidt
"American Tune" and a Bach chorale which occurs a few times in his St
Matthew Passion (for example, "Erkenne mich, mein Hueter" (#15) and
"Ich will hier bei dir stehen" (#17))?
Dan Schmidt dsch...@athena.mit.edu
Dennis J. Kosterman
>
>Has anyone noticed the remarkable similarity between Paul Simon's
>"American Tune" and a Bach chorale which occurs a few times in his St
>Matthew Passion (for example, "Erkenne mich, mein Hueter" (#15) and
>"Ich will hier bei dir stehen" (#17))?
Yes, I've noticed it, and I don't believe that Simon was unaware of
the similarity. The question then becomes: why didn't he credit Bach as
co-author? (Note that he's under no obligation to do so -- the copyright,
if there even was such a thing in Bach's day, would be long expired by now.)
Two possibilities come to mind:
(1) Simon is an unprincipled sleazebag; he's trying to pass off Bach's
tune as his own (I have a lot of respect for Paul Simon, and don't really
believe this).
(2) He was merely 'quoting' Bach, and assumed that everyone would
recognize the quotation. This also seems strange -- I'll bet there are
a lot of people who have never heard the "St. Matthew Passion" and who
think Simon actually wrote the tune.
So what's really going on here? Has Simon ever talked about this
in interviews or anything?
Dennis J. Kosterman
uwvax!astroatc!stubbs
Mike Lawless
>"American Tune" and a Bach chorale which occurs a few times in his St
>Matthew Passion (for example, "Erkenne mich, mein Hueter" (#15) and
>"Ich will hier bei dir stehen" (#17))?
Sort of like the amazing similarity between the main theme of Tchaikowsky's
violin concerto and the main theme of "The Right Stuff," which BTW won an
Oscar for Best _Original_ Score! I'm sure others have noticed the similarity,
because I once saw a commercial (for a financial institution or brokerage
house or some such thing, I think), ripping off the ripoff. Mimicing the
scene from the movie in which the 7 astronauts are shown walking down a long
corridor toward the camera, all in spacesuits, accompanied by the main theme
music, this commercial depicted workers in a IC wafer fab plant in their
clean-room suits, and the music used was the Tchaikowsky.
And, yes I have noticed the similarity you mention. The Bach tune is perhaps
better known by the title of the hymn derived from the Passion, "O Sacred
Head" (in hymnals, the tune is referred to as the "Passion Chorale").
Interestingly enough, the same chorale tune also occurs (more than once, I
think) in Bach's _Christmas_ Chorale. It sure got my attention the first time
I heard it, after all those years of associating that melody with Good Friday.
--
Mike Lawless, NCR E&M Wichita, Box 20 (316) 636-8666 (NCR: 654-8666)
3718 N. Rock Road, Wichita, KS 67226 Mike.L...@Wichita.NCR.COM
{ece-csc,hubcap,gould,rtech}!ncrcae!ncrwic!Mike.Lawless
{sdcsvax,cbatt,dcdwest,nosc.ARPA}!ncr-sd!ncrwic!Mike.Lawless
Tom Gallo
Would someone please give a recomendation for a recording
on St. Matthew's Passion on CD?
Thanks,
Tom Gallo
--
| (UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!fstvax.dec.com!gallo |
| (ARPA) gallo%fstva...@decwrl.ARPA |
| (BITNET) ga...@fstvax.dec.com |
| Opinions expressed here are my own,not those of my employer!!! |
J. Alfred Prufrock
writes:
>In article <12...@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> dsch...@athena.mit.edu (Dan Schmidt)
writes:
>>
>>Has anyone noticed the remarkable similarity between Paul Simon's
>>"American Tune" and a Bach chorale which occurs a few times in his St
>>Matthew Passion (for example, "Erkenne mich, mein Hueter" (#15) and
>>"Ich will hier bei dir stehen" (#17))?
>
> Yes, I've noticed it, and I don't believe that Simon was unaware of
>the similarity. The question then becomes: why didn't he credit Bach as
>co-author? (Note that he's under no obligation to do so -- the copyright,
>if there even was such a thing in Bach's day, would be long expired by now.)
I haven't listened to the St. Matthew Passion for a while (I'm probably the
only Bach freak I know who prefers the St. John), and I don't know Paul
Simon's music at all: I don't know what tune you mean. It's probably a
hymn tune that Bach didn't even originate.
My addled memory thinks that it is perhaps the 76.76D ``St. Theodulph,''
usually given the words ``All Glory, Laud, and Honour.'' That, or
the ``Passion Chorale'' (``O Sacred Head Surrounded'') or else ``Now Sleep
Ye Woods.'' (Three very different tunes: I am known for hedging bets.)
The first of these is based on a very old secular tune (Dowland wrote a
setting for _My Lady Neville's Book_, c. 1600, and it was old then).
In any of these cases, the tune is not original with Bach, either, though
he was an amazing arranger. Some of the chorale settings in the cantatas
(e.g., the ``Vater Unser'' tune that concludes BWV 90) are astounding.
Mark.
michael.l.siemon
> I haven't listened to the St. Matthew Passion for a while (I'm probably the
> only Bach freak I know who prefers the St. John), and I don't know Paul
> Simon's music at all: I don't know what tune you mean. It's probably a
> hymn tune that Bach didn't even originate.
Well, I more or less agree on the John vs. Matthew Passion -- there is nothing
I know quite as wrenchingly powerful as the opening chorus of the Johannes
Passion. As to the original of the "Passion Chorale" it was Hans Leo Hassler's
tune (and appears in the new Episcopal Hymnal with a Hassler harmonization as
well as (one) of Bach's) for "Herzlich tut mich verlangen." The new hymnal
has quite a few of the 16th and 17th century versions of tunes we have become
too surfeited with to hear very well in their Bachian forms (which are often
over-regularized in their rhythm compared to the originals, IMHO.)
--
Michael L. Siemon "Inflict Thy promises with each
contracted to AT&T Bell Laboratories Occasion of distress,
att!mhuxu!mls That from our incoherence we
standard disclaimer May learn to put our trust in Thee"
James Jones
I simply think that Simon wanted to take advantage of the connotations
of the old tune.
I ran into something once that bumped my respect for Paul Simon's musical
knowledge quite a bit--I was chugging through the *Oxford Book of Carols*
looking for some good period (pre-1600) songs to sing, and ran into the
French carol "Nous Sommes Ici Dans Le Ville" (apologies to speakers of
French; I'm doing this from memory!), which, in translation had the lines
...We seek out the poorer quarters
Where the ragged people go.
(Everybody remembers the line from "The Boxer," right? OK, just in case :-)...
"...Laying low,
Seeking out the poorer quarters
Where the ragged people go....")
James Jones
Tom Betz
|In article <21...@astroatc.UUCP> stu...@astroatc.UUCP (Dennis J. Kosterman)
|writes:
|>In article <12...@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> dsch...@athena.mit.edu (Dan Schmidt)
|>writes:
|>>
|>>Has anyone noticed the remarkable similarity between Paul Simon's
|>>"American Tune" and a Bach chorale which occurs a few times in his St.
|>>Matthew Passion (for example, "Erkenne mich, mein Hueter" (#15) and
|>>"Ich will hier bei dir stehen" (#17))?
|>
|> Yes, I've noticed it, and I don't believe that Simon was unaware of
|>the similarity. The question then becomes: why didn't he credit Bach as
|>co-author? (Note that he's under no obligation to do so -- the copyright,
|>if there even was such a thing in Bach's day, would be long expired by now.)
Simon has acknowledged this source in several pieces I have seen.
--
"There are no magicians. There are no hidden | rutgers!lilink!upaya!tbetz
people or gurus somewhere in secret. You have | Tom Betz, Greyston Foundation
already been given the teaching by the greatest | 114 Woodworth Ave.
illuminated sages born." - Gopi Krishna | Yonkers, NY 10701-2509
Stephen M. Dunn
$Billy Joel's "This Night" from the "An Innocent Man" album is one
$example -- it's based on some classical piece (a piano sonata?), though
$I have no idea what the original source is.
The chorus from "This Night" is taken from a Beethoven sonata (Billy acknowledges
this on the album). You may remember a song called "Midnight Blue" a couple
of years back - not a rock song, though; it got quite a bit of airplay on
MOR stations; it was also taken from the same piece.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
! Stephen M. Dunn ste...@ziebmef.UUCP ! DISCLAIMER: Who'd ever !
! My puppy died late last fall ! claim such dumb ideas? !
! He's still rotting in the hall (O.E.) ! I sure as heck wouldn't !
zan...@mva.cs.liv.ac.uk
writes:
>In article <12...@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> dsch...@athena.mit.edu (Dan Schmidt)
>writes:
>>
>>Has anyone noticed the remarkable similarity between Paul Simon's
>>Matthew Passion (for example, "Erkenne mich, mein Hueter" (#15) and
>>"Ich will hier bei dir stehen" (#17))?
>
> Yes, I've noticed it, and I don't believe that Simon was unaware of
>the similarity. The question then becomes: why didn't he credit Bach as
>co-author? (Note that he's under no obligation to do so -- the copyright,
>if there even was such a thing in Bach's day, would be long expired by now.)
Has anyone noticed the suspicious similarity between The Mindbenders' "A Groovy
Kind Of Love" and the Rondo in the fifth of Clementi's Six Sonatinas (i.e. Op.
36, No. 5, Part III)? I say "suspicious" because in the introductory theme (i.e.
enough for one verse of the song) ONE note is changed (raised by a major third).
Is this sufficient to get out of any copyright hassles :-) ?
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
! Peter Anderton Janet: ZAN...@UK.AC.LIV.CS.MVA !
! (aka Zanussi or Internet: ZANUSSI%MVA.CS.L...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU !
! The Motorway Pervert) UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!zan...@uk.ac.liv.cs.mva !
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
These are my opinions, and mine only, since no-one ever agrees with me.
L. Talstra
>As to the original of the "Passion Chorale" it was Hans Leo Hassler's
>tune (and appears in the new Episcopal Hymnal with a Hassler harmonization as
>well as (one) of Bach's) for "Herzlich tut mich verlangen."
If I remember well from what I read a long time ago, the Hassler
harmonisation was written in 1601 to an existing popular love-song of
which the first line read "Innsbruck, ich muss dich lassen"
(Innsbruck (= city in Austria), I have to leave you).
Isn't amazing: the melody of a 16th century love-song (probably older)
is incorporated in some of the "momuments" of the religious music
of the 18th century, finds its way to several hymnals in Europe as
well as in America and returns to the 20th century popular music.
(I don't know P. Simon's music either, but I guess it belongs to the
last category :-) ).
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
# Louw F Talstra DC&N/B Philips TDS Apeldoorn, The Netherlands +31 55 433146 #
# domain: tal...@idca.tds.philips.nl uucp: ...!mcvax!philapd!talstra #
J. Alfred Prufrock
>m...@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (michael.l.siemon) writes:
>>goo...@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov writes:
>>> I haven't listened to the St. Matthew Passion for a while (I'm probably the
>>> only Bach freak I know who prefers the St. John)
>... In my opinion the two Passions just don't compare.
>Having sung both on numerous occasions I feel that the Matthew is infinitely
>superior; if the last chorus of the Matthew doesn't make one's spine tingle
>then
>one must be dead from the feet up! As for the first chorus of the John being
>powerful, I find it a real drag to sing; the first chorus of the Matthew is
>far more emotional. Is it only me who thinks that the John sounds like it was
>written on the back of a proverbial envelope (and why stick a chorale on the
>end - aaaaaargh!)? Mind you, my favourite oratorio is Mendelssohn's "Elijah",
>so who am I to comment?
>
>> Michael L. Siemon
>! Peter Anderton
Talk about diversity of opinion...well, as a cantata freak I'm used to the
chorale at the end, and the harmonization of that one is stunning. (Bach and
occasionally Buxtehude can transcend the treacle of virtually any hymn). I
think I've never heard a really good performance of the St. Matthew (any
pointers to recordings? I have finally broken down and bought a CD player,
and expect to be bankrupt presently), and that I might grow more fond of it
if I did.
I've sung ``Elijah'' (humble member of the chorus) and think it's great
fun, but not on a par with Bach or Handel. After hearing ``Is not His word
like a fire,'' I always want to start singing ``And He shall purify,'' from
_Messiah_. (But some of those choruses...very good music, and I admit to a
sentimental fondness for ``Heilig is Gott der Herr''). I will always revere
Mendelssohn for rediscovering Bach, and beg forgiveness for snickering at the
choral movement of his 2nd symphony (``Lobgesang''), which strikes me as
almost comic in its melodrama (``Hueter, ist die Nacht bald hin? Ist die
Nacht bald hin?''). Also, that harmonization from the 2nd of ``Nun danket''
appears in every blasted hymnal I have ever opened, and I still think that
others have done a better job. But I ramble.
Mark.
zan...@mva.cs.liv.ac.uk
> In article <12...@edison.ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov>, goo...@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (J. Alfred Prufrock) writes:
>
>> I haven't listened to the St. Matthew Passion for a while (I'm probably the
>> only Bach freak I know who prefers the St. John), and I don't know Paul
>> Simon's music at all: I don't know what tune you mean. It's probably a
>> hymn tune that Bach didn't even originate.
>
> Well, I more or less agree on the John vs. Matthew Passion -- there is nothing
> I know quite as wrenchingly powerful as the opening chorus of the Johannes
> Passion.
Oh well, it must be me then. In my opinion the two Passions just don't compare.
Having sung both on numerous occasions I feel that the Matthew is infinitely
superior; if the last chorus of the Matthew doesn't make one's spine tingle then
one must be dead from the feet up! As for the first chorus of the John being
powerful, I find it a real drag to sing; the first chorus of the Matthew is far
more emotional. Is it only me who thinks that the John sounds like it was
written on the back of a proverbial envelope (and why stick a chorale on the
end - aaaaaargh!)? Mind you, my favourite oratorio is Mendelssohn's "Elijah", so
who am I to comment?
> Michael L. Siemon
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Jack Brand
>In article <21...@astroatc.UUCP> stu...@astroatc.UUCP (Dennis J. Kosterman)
>writes:
>>In article <12...@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> dsch...@athena.mit.edu (Dan Schmidt)
>writes:
>>>
>>>Has anyone noticed the remarkable similarity between Paul Simon's
>>>"American Tune" and a Bach chorale which occurs a few times in his St
>>>Matthew Passion (for example, "Erkenne mich, mein Hueter" (#15) and
>
>usually given the words ``All Glory, Laud, and Honour.'' That, or
>the ``Passion Chorale'' (``O Sacred Head Surrounded'') or else ``Now Sleep
In my hymn book it is entitled "O Sacred Head Now Wounded", which may
be the same as the one you mentioned (... Surrounded).
I remember my Composition teacher in school sitting me down at his
piano to have me play the first few bars of that and then playing
the first few bars of the Simon tune so I could notice the
similarity.
Just FYI, a couple others:
"Whiter Shade of Pale" (Procol Harum), from a Bach Chorale Prelude
"Never Gonna Fall in Love Again" (Eric Carmen) from Rachm. Symph (#2?)
Jack
Teenage Mutant Ninja DXer
>> whole bunch of stuff deleted...
>
> Billy Joel's "This Night" from the "An Innocent Man" album is one
For those who may have an interest, "This Night" comes partly from
Beethoven's Sonata No. 8 in C Minor, Op. 13 (a.k.a. Pathetique),
second movement.
It surprised me when I first heard Billy Joel's song--Pathetique is
the only piano sonata I know!
--
======================================================================
Bob Schreibmaier K2PH | UUCP: att!dxis!k2ph or k2...@dxis.att.com
(Teenage Mutant Ninja DXer) | ARPA: k2ph%dx...@att.arpa
Middletown, N.J. | ICBM: 40o21'N, 74o8'W
James Jones
sound a lot like the bass line in "Air on a G String?" (semi-:-)
(A while back, I heard Uriah Heep's "Easy Livin'" for the first time in a
*long* time, and it occurred to me that one could merge that song with
Schubert's "Erlkoenig" pretty easily--the riff in "Easy Livin'" could
replace the one in "Erlkoenig" with no trouble at all.)
James Jones
Michael Connelly
>"American Tune" and a Bach chorale which occurs a few times in his St
I've noticed this too. There are a couple of other similar instances
that I've heard, though usually they don't stand out in my memory.
Billy Joel's "This Night" from the "An Innocent Man" album is one
example -- it's based on some classical piece (a piano sonata?), though
I have no idea what the original source is. Two examples from the 60's
are Allan Sherman's "Hello Mudduh, Hello Fadduh" which is based on
Ponchielli's "Dance Of The Hours", and "A Lover's Concerto" (ah!) by
the Toys, whose source is Bach's Minuet in G.
Then there's always Emerson, Lake & Palmer! They tend to be less blatant,
however, and at least give credit where credit is due. :-)
(P.S. to the person that was posting the "Dates To Use & Lose" -- where'd
they go? Send more!)
Mike Connelly | "Can it core a apple?" Ed Norton (Chef Of The Past)
Bellcore, Piscataway, NJ | TIGER STADIUM:
..!bellcore!ctt!mike | "Where every night is Old-Timers Night"
Michael Siemon
(L. Talstra) writes:
>If I remember well from what I read a long time ago, the Hassler
>harmonisation was written in 1601 to an existing popular love-song of
>which the first line read "Innsbruck, ich muss dich lassen"
>(Innsbruck (= city in Austria), I have to leave you).
The Innsbruck tune is from circa 1500 and is attributed to Heinrik Isaac
at roughly the time of his association with the court of Maximilian I.
It's a lovely song and the Episcopal hymnal version (by Bach, to an
adaptation called "O Welt ich muss dich lassen") is quite pedestrian by
comparison.
I suppose it's possible that Isaac's tune (or Hassler's which is *not*
the same) could well have originated as a popular song, but don't know
of any evidence for that.
>Isn't amazing: the melody of a 16th century love-song (probably older)
>is incorporated in some of the "momuments" of the religious music
>of the 18th century, finds its way to several hymnals in Europe as
>well as in America and returns to the 20th century popular music.
>(I don't know P. Simon's music either, but I guess it belongs to the
>last category :-) ).
>--
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
># Louw F Talstra DC&N/B Philips TDS Apeldoorn, The Netherlands +31 55 433146 #
># domain: tal...@idca.tds.philips.nl uucp: ...!mcvax!philapd!talstra #
--
Michael L. Siemon Inflict Thy promises with each
Occasion of distress,
That from our incoherence we
Richard S D'Ippolito
>The Innsbruck tune is from circa 1500 and is attributed to Heinrik Isaac
>at roughly the time of his association with the court of Maximilian I.
>It's a lovely song and the Episcopal hymnal version (by Bach, to an
>adaptation called "O Welt ich muss dich lassen") is quite pedestrian by
>comparison.
>
>I suppose it's possible that Isaac's tune (or Hassler's which is *not*
>the same) could well have originated as a popular song, but don't know
>of any evidence for that.
The song is still popular, and originated with Isaac in the last five years
of the 15th century. It was converted to a dance "Wo bistu" published
(1551) by Susato in Antwerp, copied by Florentinius Maschera in the song "La
Maggia" (1584), which was adapted for keyboard by Johannes Woltz (1617), and
was used by Bach in "O welt ich muss dich lassen" as noted above, and also
in "Nun ruhen alle Walder".
What's interesting is that it seems related to the "Susanne" (in major)
melody by Lupi, as Janequin also refers to both melodies at the same time in
a song called "Tresves damours" (1535).
Rich
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
When arrogance blooms, it bears the fruit of doomed R...@sei.cmu.edu
infatuation, when it reaps a harvest rich in tears.
Ghost of Darius, The Persians, by Aeschylus