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Chris Cannam

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Jun 25, 1993, 8:59:41 AM6/25/93
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Dave Williams [da...@dsbc.icl.co.uk] writes:
:
: Rap is GARBAGE. It is RUBBISH. It cannot be called MUSIC.

Thank you, O alt.flame's resident maestro.

Rap is, of course, music. It certainly can be music of
considerable merit. Whether or not you personally happen
to like it is hardly the point.

Perhaps you're confusing the concept of "music" with that
of "a pleasant tune"?

Dave Williams

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Jun 25, 1993, 7:25:07 AM6/25/93
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Chris Cannam (Can...@sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE) wrote:
: Thank you, O alt.flame's resident maestro.
: Perhaps you're confusing the concept of "music" with that

: of "a pleasant tune"?

Perhaps I am, Chris. That's entirely possible.

--
Dave Williams - da...@oasis.icl.co.uk - da...@dsbc.icl.co.uk
These opinions are my own. I do not purport to represent my employer in any way

688...@lmsc5.is.lmsc.lockheed.com

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Jun 25, 1993, 9:34:34 AM6/25/93
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>>Rap is G*RB*GE. It is R*BB*SH. It cannot be called M*S*C.

>Rap is, of course, music. It certainly can be music of
>considerable merit.

>Perhaps you're confusing the concept of "music" with that
>of "a pleasant tune"?

Rap good. Rap cool. Rap hot. Rap.... NOT!
--
6

Andrew Clayton

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Jun 26, 1993, 10:54:36 AM6/26/93
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In article <CANNAM.93J...@dagobert.sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE>, Chris Cannam writes:

>
> Dave Williams [da...@dsbc.icl.co.uk] writes:
> :
> : Rap is GARBAGE. It is RUBBISH. It cannot be called MUSIC.
>

> Rap is, of course, music. It certainly can be music of
> considerable merit. Whether or not you personally happen
> to like it is hardly the point.

No, Chris, the point -is- that people don't like it, and say so.

The people who do like rap, get irritated at someone having the
gall to hold a different opinion, and rapidly sink into one of
several lines of stereotypical reasoning, ranging from 'you're
just a compunerdygeek, whaddya you know about *real* music', thru
'you're just racist' and straight on to 'me and my pals will
gladly rearrange your face if you bother us with your opinions.'

The evidence points to congenital deficiencies leading to a
liking of arythmic noise. But I'm sorely biased, and merely
stating my outrageous opinion. If I were to threaten phsysical
violence, then I would be no better than the attocebraic loons
who offer their words of wisdom to the world in the form of 'me
and my friends will bash you'.

Lucky for me, eh, otherwise I'd be a hypocrite.

Instead of asiam and friends, who are merely brainwashed idiots.

> Perhaps you're confusing the concept of "music" with that
> of "a pleasant tune"?

Music, sound of some kind, the range is staggering. Popularity
of certain kinds of music is certainly faddish. Who professes to
like the 'big band' sound these days? Who is getting down to The
Platters, The DelTones, and several hundred other recording
artists? Not many people who _buy_ new CD's, tapes, etc. And
the MARKET is everything. Old doesn't sell well.

Bleeding edge rap is technically superior these days to its sad
and tawdry beginnings, and to some extent is has even affected
the musical mainstream; however, it still depends upon arythmia,
inane keywords, and a blindness to the variety of humanity.

Music for 'young people'.

They're welcome to it. What irritates is the quasi-religious
monomania in wanting to -push- Rap music onto others. Just as
people balk at biblebashing, there is a section of the community
that -thrives- on it, and to be a member of that society, one
must be seen to believe.

Rap music about about empowering people with something that many
others dislike. Rap music is about rebellion. Rap Music is
about being a member of a group, and anyone outside the group is
deemed -against- the group.

Pocket analysis, free, this month only.

I still intensely dislike Rap. And freely admit to lumping
house, hip-hop, techno, and variations, into the same basket.

Dac
--
d...@prolix.apana.org.au David Andrew Clayton. // _| _ _
d...@prolix.sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au Canberra, Australia \X/ (_](_](_

Ananimuz

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Jun 27, 1993, 11:10:12 PM6/27/93
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Andrew Clayton (d...@prolix.apana.org.au) wrote:

I listen to Hip Hop, Rock N Roll, Jazz, Classical, and the Blues, to me
you're the phucking idiot, you'd never say this shit in my face so i'mt
taking your shit as bullshit and thats it, just another dumb ass thinking
he has some power on the computer, geek.

That was in Alt.flame idiot, if you can't read the name of the newsgroup
then you're probably ignorant enough to understand.. But I guess you're
less intelligent than a rock, so excuse me Mr. Intelligence like a little
boy's toy.

Sean Kristopher Person

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Jun 28, 1993, 3:24:14 AM6/28/93
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Don't worry, I didn't quote the post because it was too long. For all that
writing you did you only conveyed two points:

1. You don't like rap
2. You feel that people who listen to rap are respond inappropriately
to folks who don't like rap.

Simply writing this could have saved us an incredible amount of time. Now to
my point. I love hip-hop. About the only other form of music I listen to
other than that is Jazz. I really don't care about your opinions because
they are yours. Now I think I have followed your criteria, I didn't respond
with physical threats, and I simply stated my opinion. Happy now . . . chump!

PS> For all the vocab you spit, you still don't understand the meaning of
ignorance. Ya might wanna look that up . . . mate.

-Dredhead

dudley

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Jun 28, 1993, 11:45:07 AM6/28/93
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In article X...@prolix.apana.org.au, d...@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton) writes:
-> In article <CANNAM.93J...@dagobert.sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE>, Chris Cannam writes:
->
-> >
-> > Dave Williams [da...@dsbc.icl.co.uk] writes:
-> > :
-> > : Rap is GARBAGE. It is RUBBISH. It cannot be called MUSIC.
->
-> Rap music about about empowering people with something that many
-> others dislike. Rap music is about rebellion. Rap Music is
-> about being a member of a group, and anyone outside the group is
-> deemed -against- the group.
->

Yes, rap music is at the point that rock and roll was in the early
50s. It is funny how one hears the same arguments now, about rap,
as one heard in the 50s, about rock.

Dudley
.

Ray Shea

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Jun 28, 1993, 2:03:57 PM6/28/93
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In article <c3b8t*X...@prolix.apana.org.au> d...@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton) writes:
|In article <CANNAM.93J...@dagobert.sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE>, Chris Cannam writes:
|| Dave Williams [da...@dsbc.icl.co.uk] writes:
|| : Rap is GARBAGE. It is RUBBISH. It cannot be called MUSIC.
|| Rap is, of course, music. It certainly can be music of
|| considerable merit. Whether or not you personally happen
|| to like it is hardly the point.
|
|No, Chris, the point -is- that people don't like it, and say so.

No, Andrew, the point -is- that people don't like it, so they say it isn't
music. Which is, of course, stupid.

|The evidence points to congenital deficiencies leading to a
|liking of arythmic noise.

Strange. Most rap haters complain that it's nothing *but* rhythm.

|Music, sound of some kind, the range is staggering. Popularity
|of certain kinds of music is certainly faddish.

How long does something have to be around for it to not be a fad?

|Music for 'young people'.

eewwww, young people. how utterly revolting.

--
Ray Shea "To fail is to be a victim, to be a victim
UniSQL, Inc. of my choice...maybe partying will help."
unisql!r...@cs.utexas.edu
DoD #0372 : '88 Hawk GT

Jason Hsu

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Jun 28, 1993, 4:33:12 PM6/28/93
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In article <c3b8t*X...@prolix.apana.org.au> d...@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew
Clayton) writes:
> The evidence points to congenital deficiencies leading to a
> liking of arythmic noise. But I'm sorely biased, and merely
> stating my outrageous opinion. If I were to threaten phsysical
> violence, then I would be no better than the attocebraic loons
> who offer their words of wisdom to the world in the form of 'me
> and my friends will bash you'.

You are no better than those "attocebraic loons." Either you like
rap or you don't. It is purely a matter of taste.


>
> Bleeding edge rap is technically superior these days to its sad
> and tawdry beginnings, and to some extent is has even affected
> the musical mainstream; however, it still depends upon arythmia,
> inane keywords, and a blindness to the variety of humanity.
>

An Allan Bloom wannabe. Sorry, wrong newsgroup. Try
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh.


>
> They're welcome to it. What irritates is the quasi-religious
> monomania in wanting to -push- Rap music onto others. Just as
> people balk at biblebashing, there is a section of the community
> that -thrives- on it, and to be a member of that society, one
> must be seen to believe.
>

If you do not like rap, don't listen to it. It is as simple as
that.

> Rap music about about empowering people with something that many
> others dislike. Rap music is about rebellion. Rap Music is
> about being a member of a group, and anyone outside the group is
> deemed -against- the group.
>

Next thing I know, this Allan Bloom wannabe will find subliminal
messages in Kenny G's music.

Bill Heiden

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Jun 28, 1993, 3:08:04 PM6/28/93
to

>Yes, rap music is at the point that rock and roll was in the early
>50s. It is funny how one hears the same arguments now, about rap,
>as one heard in the 50s, about rock.

Yeah, all those songs about beating up Korean store owners, rape fantasies,
drive-bys, gay bashing, and killing cops had the parents of the 50's in
an uproar.

bi...@ent-img.com

Jeff Dauber

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Jun 28, 1993, 6:13:50 PM6/28/93
to


Let's see....


From my personal musical youth, we have some of the following songs/bands:

MDC - Dead Cops
with the lyrics
"Dead Cops, Dead Cops, Dead Cops, Down on the Street, I think
it's neat"

Wiseblood - Stumbo
with the lyrics
"She told me she was pregnant, then fell backwards downstairs,
something died in that womb"
The song is about killing a 14 year old after finding out she
was pregnant.

Dead Kennedies - I Kill Children
"I Kill Children, Like to see them die, I kill children, watch
their mama's cry"

GBH - Necro
"No Remorse, Screw the Corpse"


Stranglers - Bring On The Nubiles
"let me, let me, fuck you, fuck you, let me, let me, fuck you
fuck you"

Vandals - HB Hotel
"She was a cunt, she was a bitch, she left me with a goddam itch"
(this one gets much more extreme, but I cannot remember the
lyrics offhand.

Scratch Acid - Crazy Dan
"This guy doused his wife in gasoline, then he went and set the
bitch on fire"

Shall I go on? I can probably dig through my vaults of old 50s rock and
roll rarities and come up with a lot of things which are just as bad.
You only hear the sanitised shit on the radio.... There were a lot of
bands out there that were really nasty who did not make it to "oldies"
radio...


FWA

R o d Johnson

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Jun 28, 1993, 6:27:00 PM6/28/93
to
In article <asiamC9...@netcom.com> as...@netcom.com (Ananimuz) writes:

>shit in my face

Glad to!

>so i'mt
>taking your shit as bullshit and thats it

Well said! Note the skilled use of internal rhyme.

>That was in Alt.flame idiot,

That's alt.flame.idiot. . . idiot.

>if you can't read the name of the newsgroup
>then you're probably ignorant enough to understand

This should be engraved over the portal at Usenet Headquarters, so
that all of us who walk those hallowed precincts every day can look
upon them and ponder.

>..

This is my favorite punctuation of the week.

>But I guess you're
>less intelligent than a rock, so excuse me Mr. Intelligence like a little
>boy's toy.

But what about the puppy? And finally, to sum it all up:

>

But what about the *puppy*?

--
Rod Johnson * "if you can't read the name of the newsgroup
r...@umich.edu * then you're probably ignorant enough to understand."
--as...@netcom.com

Stephanie Linton u

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Jun 29, 1993, 12:04:42 AM6/29/93
to
I know that you are all interested and all:

I like rap and house.


*kisses to my phantom*


Naz Reyes

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Jun 29, 1993, 3:20:23 AM6/29/93
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In article <c3b8t*X...@prolix.apana.org.au>, d...@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew

Clayton) says:
>
>In article <CANNAM.93J...@dagobert.sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE>, Chris Cannam
>writes:
>
>Pocket analysis, free, this month only.
>
>I still intensely dislike Rap. And freely admit to lumping
>house, hip-hop, techno, and variations, into the same basket.
>
>Dac

You've only proven one point. You don't know how to dance and
hate everyone that knows how to dance. Case closed.

-Naz the beatboy

Phillip Lashley

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Jun 29, 1993, 5:53:18 AM6/29/93
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In article <c3b8t*X...@prolix.apana.org.au> d...@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton) writes:
>Pocket analysis, free, this month only.
>
>I still intensely dislike Rap. And freely admit to lumping
>house, hip-hop, techno, and variations, into the same basket.

NOTE: much rambling deleted.

>
>Dac
>--
>d...@prolix.apana.org.au David Andrew Clayton. // _| _ _
>d...@prolix.sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au Canberra, Australia \X/ (_](_](_

Rass man. I've still got 100 and 1 posts to read
to katch up, and already a sukah for the kill file.
What is the world coming to....
just cant pass by this typa thing.
But buddys entitled to his opinions, yes?
gone.
phil.

ass connected to the brain stem. P.E

Andrew Clayton

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Jun 28, 1993, 9:27:29 AM6/28/93
to
In article <dredheadC...@netcom.com>, Sean Kristopher Person writes:

> Don't worry, I didn't quote the post because it was too long. For all that
> writing you did you only conveyed two points:

You can't handle article length, because it goes against your
grain to have to stop for a while and think about an argument [or
a series of them]. You confuse length with blather, and length
with unreasonable behaviour. Anus-i-am is confident of his
ability to survive in alt.flame - my deconstruction of his
posting into alt.rap was for demonstration purposes only.

I have no bone to pick with people who want to discuss rap in
alt.rap - only with deadheads who want to gyre and gimble in
alt.flame. Then, they are targetted. And if that interferes
with your enjoyment, then it may in your best interests to get
Anusman to stop his petulant bawling in alt.flame. Until he
goes, I stay!

It's a kind of threat, you see. Peer pressure and all that. :-)

> Simply writing this could have saved us an incredible amount of time.

Feh. It takes you an 'incredible amount of time' to read a mere
5K or so of _explanation_ as to why someone dislikes rap? If I
had merely said 'rap sux', I get fifteen catcalls of 'yeah, prove
it, and then me and my mates will bash you'. Either way you cut
it, Sean, the unreasonableness factor cuts in, and the sauce
starts appearing in many people's editors, ready to pour on the
cooking suckling piglets who are, ever so lamely, trying to push
over their limited point of view to the wider audience.

> PS> For all the vocab you spit, you still don't understand the meaning of
> ignorance. Ya might wanna look that up . . . mate.

Ignorance, my dear fellow, is personified in rapheads braying
their vacuous challenges in alt.flame.

Take them away, and all will be well. Resistance is useless.

Andrew Clayton

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Jun 29, 1993, 7:27:10 AM6/29/93
to
In article <asiamC9...@netcom.com>, Ananimuz writes:

> Andrew Clayton (d...@prolix.apana.org.au) wrote:
>
> I listen to Hip Hop, Rock N Roll, Jazz, Classical, and the Blues, to me
> you're the phucking idiot, you'd never say this shit in my face so i'mt
> taking your shit as bullshit and thats it, just another dumb ass thinking
> he has some power on the computer, geek.

Your problem is that you confuse a willingness to play the
flame-game, with some type of superiority complex; there is no
gain to be gotten from proving that you're good at anything.

There is gain to be eked from putting snotnosed fuckheads like
you through the mill of alt.flame, and watching you spew
illogical refutations back, as though you had some kind of
solution to the problem of your immeasurable dimness.

The sad fact is that you're playing basketball, whilst the people
in alt.flame are hunting with shotguns - and its rapper season!

"Shh. Be vewwy vewwy qwiet, I'hunting wappers!"

BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM.

... and before you can say 'metobolically challenged', you're so
much juiced phlegm.

You aren't doing your alt.rap newsgroup much good, keeping the
followup set to alt.rap and alt.flame.

I don't subscribe to alt.rap, so any appeals for peace from that
quarter, will be falling upon deaf ears.

Take your agenda, and your ghettoblasted pinhead self, and shove
off to parts where you're talking the same fucking language.

> That was in Alt.flame idiot, if you can't read the name of the newsgroup
> then you're probably ignorant enough to understand.. But I guess you're

Evidence: Newsgroups: alt.flame,rec.music.misc,alt.rap

But this assumes that monumental dorks called 'Anusman' can grasp
the consequences of inciting riot and flamewars by crossposting
alt.flame into any other newsgroup.

You're just so much angst and dried up shit, asiam, and there is
*no* stopping your headlong dive into oblivion.

Andrew Clayton

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Jun 29, 1993, 8:07:45 AM6/29/93
to
In article <93180.0...@auvm.american.edu>, Naz Reyes writes:

> You've only proven one point. You don't know how to dance and
> hate everyone that knows how to dance. Case closed.

One point?

;know how to dance'
;hate everyone who knows how to dance.

Seems like you dorks aren't mereky just musical-taste
challenged, but you're actively short on counting-ability.

Maybe you need a small holiday.

###### ## #### ### ###
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> -Naz the beatboy

More like:

"bento haze baby"

Dac
--

Leo Breebaart

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Jun 29, 1993, 4:27:20 AM6/29/93
to
d...@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton) writes:

> And the MARKET is everything. Old doesn't sell well.

Try telling *that* to the Black Crowes.

> Bleeding edge rap is technically superior these days to its sad
> and tawdry beginnings, and to some extent is has even affected
> the musical mainstream;

"To some extent"?

Yeah, and 'disco' is just a crazy fad that will fade away in a couple
o' years, huh? Dream on boy, dream on...

--
Leo Breebaart (leo @ cp.tn.tudelft.nl)

Robert C.Haushalter

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Jun 29, 1993, 10:11:17 AM6/29/93
to
Please shut the fuck up bonehead. Aren't you leaving for the summer
soon?

--
The opinions are mine..not my company's.
Actually, everything is more complicated

Sean Kristopher Person

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Jun 29, 1993, 2:09:16 PM6/29/93
to
Andrew Clayton (d...@prolix.apana.org.au) wrote:
: You can't handle article length, because it goes against your

: grain to have to stop for a while and think about an argument [or
: a series of them]. You confuse length with blather, and length
: with unreasonable behaviour. Anus-i-am is confident of his
: ability to survive in alt.flame - my deconstruction of his
: posting into alt.rap was for demonstration purposes only.

I read the damn article. I prefered not to incorporate all the shit you
talk because I was too lazy to type that many keys. Anyway, is he wants
to project his views on alt.flame then he is intitled to. There are no
guidelines that say "no rap enthusiast" in alt.flame. So, except his
presense on a newsgroup you idolize so much, and get the fuck off alt.rap!

Regardless of how many differentt way I explain how rap is a legitimate art
form, you will continue rambling about this and that. Playing devil's
advocate is easy, so stop spewing irrelevent points, especially if they
take up a whoping 5k.

Rap is music. All disbelievers exit stage left.

-Dredhead

The Big Maaan

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Jun 29, 1993, 10:20:29 PM6/29/93
to
In article <c3b8t*X...@prolix.apana.org.au> d...@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton) writes:
>In article <CANNAM.93J...@dagobert.sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE>, Chris Cannam writes:
>
>>
>> Dave Williams [da...@dsbc.icl.co.uk] writes:
>> :
>> : Rap is GARBAGE. It is RUBBISH. It cannot be called MUSIC.
>The evidence points to congenital deficiencies leading to a
>liking of arythmic noise. But I'm sorely biased, and merely
as well as wrong. I enjoy Bach _as well as_ ATCQ & Large Professor & T-Bone,
etc. (although I was down w/rap before i took a liking to classical)
>stating my outrageous opinion. If I were to threaten phsysical
definitely outrageous.

>
>> Perhaps you're confusing the concept of "music" with that
>> of "a pleasant tune"?
>
>Music, sound of some kind, the range is staggering. Popularity
>of certain kinds of music is certainly faddish. Who professes to
>like the 'big band' sound these days? Who is getting down to The

ME. I dig Duke as well as rockers & ska & jazz & metal & industrial

>Platters, The DelTones, and several hundred other recording
>artists? Not many people who _buy_ new CD's, tapes, etc. And

man. I'm still jamming to my old Isley Bro.'s tape. is that far back
enough? oh yeah, also my Sam Cooke.

>the MARKET is everything. Old doesn't sell well.

I only buy CD's that are of tha oldies or non-rap (Earth, Wind & Fire, 'Trane, Bird, Kings X, Hollow Men, etc.) Rap's not too good for sampling. :)
speaking of that, i'll use the age old (very TRUE) argument that if it
wasn't for rap, some of these old cuts _wouldn't_ be bought.


>
>Bleeding edge rap is technically superior these days to its sad
>and tawdry beginnings, and to some extent is has even affected
>the musical mainstream; however, it still depends upon arythmia,
>inane keywords, and a blindness to the variety of humanity.

_a_rythmia? maybe you can't dance.


>
>Music for 'young people'.

I guess so. I'm only 21.


>
>Rap music about about empowering people with something that many
>others dislike. Rap music is about rebellion. Rap Music is
>about being a member of a group, and anyone outside the group is
>deemed -against- the group.

well, kinda. in my past, it was like that, but for _me_, no more.

>I still intensely dislike Rap. And freely admit to lumping
>house, hip-hop, techno, and variations, into the same basket.

my beef's w/ country. stuff's too "twangy" for me. :)


>
>Dac
>--
>d...@prolix.apana.org.au David Andrew Clayton. // _| _ _
>d...@prolix.sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au Canberra, Australia \X/ (_](_](_


--
-jon madison
jmad...@etsun.tech.iupui.edu
DJ AllStar of True Soldiers...w/ a phat single:
Mr. Christian/Can u git lyvah?

Naz Reyes

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Jun 29, 1993, 11:22:31 PM6/29/93
to
In article <NU79t*w...@prolix.apana.org.au>, d...@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew

Clayton) says:
>
>In article <93180.0...@auvm.american.edu>, Naz Reyes writes:
>
>> You've only proven one point. You don't know how to dance and
>> hate everyone that knows how to dance. Case closed.
>
>One point?
>
>;know how to dance'
>;hate everyone who knows how to dance.
>
>Seems like you dorks aren't mereky just musical-taste
>challenged, but you're actively short on counting-ability.

Apparently, you don't know a DAMN THING about me. If you did
you wouldn't be saying what you just said. Coming from a heavy
metal band and a black gospel choir I'd say I know what the
FUCK I'm talking about. Now, why don't you LEARN how to DANCE
and enjoy yourself before you have a CARDIAC ARREST, buddy boy? :)

-Naz

Naz Reyes

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Jun 30, 1993, 12:09:43 AM6/30/93
to
In article <NU79t*w...@prolix.apana.org.au>, d...@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew

Clayton) says:
>
>
>Maybe you need a small holiday.

Looks to me like *you* need a PERMANENT HOLIDAY. How about
a permanent holiday in the GRAVEYARD, EH? :-) Seriously,
though, you need holiday in a DANCE CLUB. I'm sure you
clogged arteries will thank you in the long run.

-Naz

dx

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Jun 30, 1993, 2:47:50 AM6/30/93
to
Andrew Clayton...

> .... Who professes to


> like the 'big band' sound these days? Who is getting down to The
> Platters, The DelTones, and several hundred other recording
> artists?

Which big bands... the originals, the latter-day orchestral works of
the 50's? The rehashes of the 60's and 70's? Personally I profess to
like the band works of the 50's (Martin Denny, Arthur Lyman, Augie
Colon, Esquivel, Dick Hyman, David Carroll, Les Baxter, et al.). The
Platters - well, which version? The Deltones - Dick Dale's Deltones?
Sure, favorites of mine too.

> Not many people who _buy_ new CD's, tapes, etc. And
> the MARKET is everything. Old doesn't sell well.

Really. I guess if you define 'well' as the level attained by the top
few percent of records, that's true. If you define 'well' as making a
profit, then you might want to explain to Rhino, DCC, Bear Family, See
For Miles and a host of other oldies-only or mostly-oldies labels that
their productions aren't selling. You might also want to remind all of
the majors that their reissue programs are losing money.

Old music sells quite well, actually. And that's old music that was
once very popular (Beatles, Beach Boys, etc), and old music that was
obscure even at its time of issue (check out the overflowing racks of
jazz reissues).

-dx
--
--
"Some corrective historical lenses should dispel your current
sense of apocalyptic vertigo." -Gregory A. Taylor

falk...@cnsvax.uwec.edu

unread,
Jun 29, 1993, 9:59:38 PM6/29/93
to
In article <dredheadC...@netcom.com>, dred...@netcom.com (Sean Kristopher Person) writes:
> Rap is music. All disbelievers exit stage left.

Please explain and defend the above statement...

I mean, for all the money that people seem to throw to rap, with just a few
weeks' practice [if I chose to waste my time on it], heck, I could become just
as good of a rapper as these guys. There's no talent required, just a gimmick
to get you saleable...

That's garbage, my friend, not music.

Mike Falkner
FALK...@cnsvax.uwec.edu

R Clement

unread,
Jun 30, 1993, 7:22:59 AM6/30/93
to
In article <1993Jun29....@cnsvax.uwec.edu> falk...@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
> I mean, for all the money that people seem to throw to rap, with just a few
>weeks' practice [if I chose to waste my time on it], heck, I could become just
>as good of a rapper as these guys. There's no talent required, just a gimmick
>to get you saleable...

This is *exactly* what people used to say about pop/rock music back in
the 50s/60s (not that I was there to hear it for most of that time). I was
pleased to see someone noting this in a previous post.

To expand, sure, there are some crappy rap artists who are saleable, but this
is true in almost any type of music. You claim to be able to quickly become
as good as any of them. To this; I say "bullsh*t".

And, an important part of rap is to write your own lyrics. Very few (I can't
think of any off-hand) serious rappers rap other's lyrics. If you believe
you can be "as good as any of them", please write some lyrics and post
them for our evaluation.

> That's garbage, my friend, not music.

Ho hum.

>Mike Falkner
>FALK...@cnsvax.uwec.edu

Cheers,

Ross-c

David Chung

unread,
Jun 30, 1993, 12:05:32 AM6/30/93
to
Is anyone else sick of this ongoing "debate" about dissing peoples music?
Lets squash this and start some real dialogue...

{>ML<}
AKA
{>DC Creep

Robert C.Haushalter

unread,
Jun 30, 1993, 10:59:45 AM6/30/93
to
In article <dave...@podbox.UUCP> da...@podbox.UUCP (David Chung) writes:
>Is anyone else sick of this ongoing "debate" about dissing peoples music?
####### #

Yes almost as sick as your "spelling".

Chris Cannam

unread,
Jun 30, 1993, 1:18:57 PM6/30/93
to

Robert C.Haushalter [haus...@research.nj.nec.com] writes:

: In article <dave...@podbox.UUCP> da...@podbox.UUCP (David Chung) writes:
: >
: >Is anyone else sick of this ongoing "debate" about dissing peoples music?
: ####### #
:
: Yes almost as sick as your "spelling".

Go on then, hit us with it. What's wrong with his spelling?

dudley

unread,
Jun 30, 1993, 11:48:06 AM6/30/93
to
In article 28...@gps.leeds.ac.uk, ros...@scs.leeds.ac.uk (R Clement) writes:
> In article <1993Jun29....@cnsvax.uwec.edu> falk...@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
> > I mean, for all the money that people seem to throw to rap, with just a few
> >weeks' practice [if I chose to waste my time on it], heck, I could become just
> >as good of a rapper as these guys. There's no talent required, just a gimmick
> >to get you saleable...
>
> This is *exactly* what people used to say about pop/rock music back in
> the 50s/60s (not that I was there to hear it for most of that time). I was
> pleased to see someone noting this in a previous post.
>
I was the one who noted the similarities between the arguments used against
rock in the 50s and rap in the 90s. I was around for all of the 50s, and I
can remember it well.

In the 50s, we saw the end of the big band era. Big band was, in its time,
progressive, however as it aged, it moved into the maistream and lost its
edge. Rock was born to fill the void created by the shift. Rock was rebel
music, and many felt threatened by its appeal because they didn't understand
it and because they didn't want to see a change in the status quo. It is a
common human reaction to lash out at change.

Now we are in an age where rock has become mainstream. It has lost its edge.
Look at television, which uses rock to sell beer and cars. This was unheard
of in the 50s, but now that the masses are comfortable with rock, it is
perfectly acceptable.

Now rap has filled the progressive music void formerly held by big band and
rock. Those who feel comfortable with rock now feel threatened and so, lash
out at rap. In most cases, they know very little about it except that it is
different. It is a common human reaction to fear that which is different.

dudley
.

Fedde Engler

unread,
Jun 30, 1993, 12:23:32 PM6/30/93
to
da...@podbox.UUCP (David Chung) writes:

>Is anyone else sick of this ongoing "debate" about dissing peoples music?
>Lets squash this and start some real dialogue...

If people just could ignore the alt.flamers it could be done...

--
Fedde Engler
Email : fe...@bern.docs.uu.se
Comp. Sci. Student (D89), Uppsala University, Sweden

The Big Maaan

unread,
Jun 30, 1993, 2:36:30 PM6/30/93
to

Ananimuz

unread,
Jun 30, 1993, 4:25:51 PM6/30/93
to
David Chung (da...@podbox.UUCP) wrote:
: Is anyone else sick of this ongoing "debate" about dissing peoples music?

: Lets squash this and start some real dialogue...

Shit yeah, I think this shit should've stayed in Alt.flame where it started
in the first place.

: {>ML<}
: AKA
: {>DC Creep

Ananimuz

unread,
Jun 30, 1993, 4:26:30 PM6/30/93
to
Chris Cannam (Can...@sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE) wrote:

Too RAPPY for them.

Gregory Taylor

unread,
Jun 30, 1993, 9:44:02 AM6/30/93
to
Sounding like his dad, Bill Heiden writes:
> Yeah, all those songs about beating up Korean store owners, rape fantasies,
>drive-bys, gay bashing, and killing cops had the parents of the 50's in
>an uproar.

Way to sniff out those analogies and falsify 'em, Bill. No one with a pair of
neurons to rub together would be so stupid as to imply that social conditions
or the kind of speech that accompanies it are precisely the same. I daresay,
for example, that the dire predictions of 50s R&B fostering "race mixing"
would mean much to you [ if you're a Limbot, you can put in a gratuitous
complaint about Black Separatism here, of course ]. I'd also guess that the talk
of gang violence [ "rumbles" in those days. Quaint. ] would count for much,
either. Or the discussions that this rebellious music was somehow connected
to the Communist Threat menacing our youth and sapping the moral strength of
our great nation. So that *does* require a little imagination; I'll bet that
any well chosen 18th century literature disparaging the work of upstart
composer as a malcontent who causes riots and disorder wherever his work is
played would also seem less threatening to you. But that's what folks who pay
attention to history try to account for. As I've said before, some historically
corrective lenses would do a lot to dispel your sense of apocalyptic vertigo.

And, yes, I don't care particularly for the depiction of women in rap *or*
[name music of choice - opera. metal. country]. But it would seem to me that
you might be a bit more reflective about using that single excuse to label an
entire genre. We do, of course, trust that you've a sizeable enough sample to
recognize that the form is broader than you imply [ it ain't *all* body count
clones, pal ].

And finally, I expect that it's pretty hard to get to the heart of the fact
that what *really* made the Bill Heidens of the 1950s upset about that
"caterwauling of jungle beasts" was that those nice white kids were listening
to and enjoying the music of those pesky Negroes. Outsiders. Folks with little
access to the society they were locked out of. And, as *any* dominant cultural
paradigmista will tell you, no one makes non-music like an outsider.

If you're generally interested in the subject for reasons other than arguing
the historical uniqueness of your cultural biases, I'd recommend that you try
Charlie Gillette's book "The Sound of the City: the rise of rock n' roll 195?-
195?. It won't put you off right away because it's about a larger set of issues
about cultural change [i.e., Charlie's not just out to prove *my* point], and
it's a great social history of the time.

Kevin Walsh

unread,
Jul 1, 1993, 9:35:04 AM7/1/93
to
I don't think popping "E"s all night in a dance club would help
anyone's clogged arteries. Pulling out his 9mm and sending
people to the graveyard probably wouldn't help his future
health either.

All in all a good idea. Send the dacman to the dance club.

BTW: If Dac pulled out his 9mm, I doubt if he'd be arrested
for indecent exposure. The police would be killing themselves
laughing.

Hey, don't most rap songs have "cop killing" in them somewhere
alongside "pulling out the nine?" Nice one, Dacman; you're looking
more like a rap artist all the time.

Go ahead, sample my day.

--
_/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/
_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ Professor Kevin Walsh
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ ke...@cursor.demon.co.uk
_/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/

falk...@cnsvax.uwec.edu

unread,
Jun 30, 1993, 6:03:33 PM6/30/93
to
In article <1993Jun30.1...@gps.leeds.ac.uk>, ros...@scs.leeds.ac.uk (R Clement) writes:
> In article <1993Jun29....@cnsvax.uwec.edu> falk...@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>> I mean, for all the money that people seem to throw to rap, with just a few
>>weeks' practice [if I chose to waste my time on it], heck, I could become just
>>as good of a rapper as these guys. There's no talent required, just a gimmick
>>to get you saleable...
>
> This is *exactly* what people used to say about pop/rock music back in
> the 50s/60s (not that I was there to hear it for most of that time). I was
> pleased to see someone noting this in a previous post.

Puh-leeze don't let rap get to the same heights as pop/rock did in the
50's/60's, else I may as well trash my radio...



> To expand, sure, there are some crappy rap artists who are saleable, but this
> is true in almost any type of music. You claim to be able to quickly become
> as good as any of them. To this; I say "bullsh*t".

Note my quote, Ross. I said specifically that with some practice I could
become as good as these guys, and lyricism would be a part of it...

I mean, all you need today is the right publicist, and the money comes
running in for you... You don't need talent. I mean, throw in 50 different
words for "sex" and 40 ways to kill cops, and you got a lot of rap music
today.. *PUKE*

> And, an important part of rap is to write your own lyrics. Very few (I can't
> think of any off-hand) serious rappers rap other's lyrics. If you believe
> you can be "as good as any of them", please write some lyrics and post
> them for our evaluation.

Ross, you're shrewd... Very shrewd... You just can't seem to accept you and
your blessed music have been found out for what they are. If I have some time
to waste, I certainly may take you up on it.

[Though trying to come up with "rap" would be a complete waste of time
compared to coming up with actual music...]

Mike Falkner
FALK...@cnsvax.uwec.edu

R o d Johnson

unread,
Jul 1, 1993, 12:36:02 PM7/1/93
to
In article <1993Jun30....@cnsvax.uwec.edu> another one of
those undergraduates from an nth-tier state school, this time one
falk...@cnsvax.uwec.edu, the Orpheus of Eau Claire, writes:

[He hates rap music, you've heard it all before many times, try to at
least *look* awake]

>In article <1993Jun30.1...@gps.leeds.ac.uk>, ros...@scs.leeds.ac.uk (R Clement) writes:
>> If you believe
>> you can be "as good as any of them", please write some lyrics and post
>> them for our evaluation.

>Ross, you're shrewd... Very shrewd...

No, little guy, he's just, like most of us here, heard losers like you
make this boast over and over before. And when challenged, they
*always* dry up like piss stains on a rock in a hot wind and are never
heard from again. Now if you *are* different (you're not), prove it.
Or press the 'shut up' key.

>You just can't seem to accept you and
>your blessed music have been found out for what they are.

How melodramatic. Let me guess, you work for UNCLE, right?

>If I have some time
>to waste,

You've already wasted a fair amount of ours--why not go for it?

> I certainly may take you up on it.

S u u u r e you will. . .

Tell you what. I'll chip in five dollars to the "send Mike Falkner to
college" fund if you write and record a rap. Now I'll bet we could
get a couple hundred others here to do the same, just for the pleasure
of laughing at the ultimate product. How's that for incentive?

> [Though trying to come up with "rap" would be a complete waste of time
>compared to coming up with actual music...]

I would be shocked if you could do either.

Charles L Isbell

unread,
Jul 1, 1993, 10:05:47 AM7/1/93
to
d...@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton) writes:
|In article <dredheadC...@netcom.com>, Sean Kristopher Person writes:
|> Don't worry, I didn't quote the post because it was too long. For all that
|> writing you did you only conveyed two points:

|You can't handle article length, because it goes against your
|grain to have to stop for a while and think about an argument [or
|a series of them]. You confuse length with blather, and length
|with unreasonable behaviour.

And you confuse length with a cogent argument. So what?

Take it somewhere else.


--
Peace?
"True peace is not the absence of tension,
it is the presence of justice"
- Martin Luther King, Jr
-\--/-
Don't just adopt opinions | \/ | Some of you are homeboys
develop them. | /\ | but only I am The Homeboy From hell
-/--\-

Charles L Isbell

unread,
Jul 1, 1993, 10:23:27 AM7/1/93
to
In article <1993Jun29....@cnsvax.uwec.edu> falk...@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
|>I mean, for all the money that people seem to throw to rap, with just a few
|>weeks' practice [if I chose to waste my time on it], heck, I could
|>become just as good of a rapper as these guys. There's no talent
|>required, just a gimmick to get you saleable...

Sounds like what peopel say abotu *every* form of music.

Anyway, I don't believe you. Do it. I'll expect a good single by
July 31. Mail to my MIT AI lab address. I write reviews, I'll do a
review of yours.

And after you get major play and become a big star, I will personally
admit to the universe that you were right.

Ray Shea

unread,
Jul 1, 1993, 11:31:31 AM7/1/93
to
>In article <dredheadC...@netcom.com>, dred...@netcom.com (Sean Kristopher Person) writes:
>> Rap is music. All disbelievers exit stage left.
>
> Please explain and defend the above statement...

For it to be music, it must have one or more of: melody, harmony, and rhythm.

The proof that rap is indeed music is left to the reader as an exercise.

> I mean, for all the money that people seem to throw to rap, with just a few
>weeks' practice [if I chose to waste my time on it], heck, I could become just
>as good of a rapper as these guys. There's no talent required, just a gimmick
>to get you saleable...
>
> That's garbage, my friend, not music.


Let me get this straight. You seem to be arguing that "if I, Mike Falkner,
can do it, then it must be crap." OK, if you say so.


Unless you want to explain and defend the statement that "rap is not music",
drawing, of course, on your vast knowledge of Jamaican "toasting", african
griots, nyabinghi, the Free Jazz movement, musique concrete, Gysin's "cutups"
methods, Warhol's appropriation of pop icons, Industrial music, dub poetry,
the Mothership Connection, the history of bebop, hip-hop culture, the Black
Panthers, John Cage, and white mainstream attitudes towards rock'n'roll in the
early fifties, I suggest you do a little more thinking about why you find the
need to so easily dismiss something which you obviously know so very little
about.


I'm so tired.

--
Ray Shea "To fail is to be a victim, to be a victim
UniSQL, Inc. of my choice...maybe partying will help."
unisql!r...@cs.utexas.edu
DoD #0372 : '88 Hawk GT

Ray Shea

unread,
Jul 1, 1993, 12:32:05 PM7/1/93
to
In article <1993Jun30.1...@research.nj.nec.com> haus...@research.nj.nec.com (Robert C.Haushalter) writes:
>In article <dave...@podbox.UUCP> da...@podbox.UUCP (David Chung) writes:
>>Is anyone else sick of this ongoing "debate" about dissing peoples music?
> ####### #
>
>Yes almost as sick as your "spelling".


Excuse me? What's the right way to spell it?

R Clement

unread,
Jul 1, 1993, 4:07:12 PM7/1/93
to
In article <1993Jun30....@cnsvax.uwec.edu> falk...@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jun30.1...@gps.leeds.ac.uk>, ros...@scs.leeds.ac.uk (R Clement) writes:
>> In article <1993Jun29....@cnsvax.uwec.edu> falk...@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>>> I mean, for all the money that people seem to throw to rap, with just a few
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>>weeks' practice [if I chose to waste my time on it], heck, I could become just
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>>as good of a rapper as these guys. There's no talent required, just a gimmick
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>to get you saleable...

>
>> To expand, sure, there are some crappy rap artists who are saleable, but this
>> is true in almost any type of music. You claim to be able to quickly become
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> as good as any of them. To this; I say "bullsh*t".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>
> Note my quote, Ross. I said specifically that with some practice I could
>become as good as these guys, and lyricism would be a part of it...

Go ahead, split hairs, make my day.

It *is* what you said. Claiming to be able to become as good as them in "just a
few weeks" is definitely 'quickly'. Do you disagree? Do you say that "a few
weeks of practice" is 'slow'? That would be miracuously fast to become a
skilled performer ('as good as any of them') in any field.

> I mean, all you need today is the right publicist, and the money comes
>running in for you... You don't need talent. I mean, throw in 50 different
>words for "sex" and 40 ways to kill cops, and you got a lot of rap music
>today.. *PUKE*

No, quite a lot of rap lyrics are very cleverly written. Look at De La Soul,
Songs about incest, ending with a daughter pulling a pistol on Santa Claus
(her abusive father). That's pretty heavy stuff. But, oh, that's just another
word for "sex" isn't it? Songs about their own brother destroying himself
through drugs, etc. Arrested Development? Tons of protest songs with the
energy that some of the angry young folksingers used to have. Young MC?
Well, lyrically a bit pro-establishment, but streams of conciousness
described in a more imaginative way than I've ever heard before (*). Listen
to Moby's "Curse" from the Recoil album "Bloodline", those are some great
lyrics. There are bad rap lyrics, but it certainly is not a meaning impaired:)
musical form. PM Dawn? Listen to 'Plastic', a dig at the musical press and
other commentators that Elvis Costello would be proud of.

(*) Well, come to think of it, I'll put Roger Waters ahead of Young MC here.

>> And, an important part of rap is to write your own lyrics. Very few (I can't
>> think of any off-hand) serious rappers rap other's lyrics. If you believe
>> you can be "as good as any of them", please write some lyrics and post
>> them for our evaluation.
>
> Ross, you're shrewd... Very shrewd... You just can't seem to accept you and
>your blessed music have been found out for what they are. If I have some time
>to waste, I certainly may take you up on it.

I find it very difficult to accept the argument that '[I] and [my] blessed
music have been found out for what they are' when it is presented without
support in an argument with holes large enough to drive the bluesmobile through.

E.g. you mention the lyrics not being very good. Since I'm aware of a lot
of rap music with excellent lyrics, I find it very hard to accept that rap
has stupid lyrics as a general principle. If I gave up on all genres of music
that had examples of crap lyrics, what would I be listening to?

E.g. you claim that anyone could do it (with the right promoter etc). Sure,
the music industry is slick enough to promote talentless artists to a lot of
success in some fields (and has done so). That doesn't mean that all, or even
most, music in those fields is bad. Again, if music X has some bad examples
(talentless artists) does that mean that all music X is bad?

And your claim that you could do it as good as any of them in just a few
weeks has two consequences. (i) you have an amazing natural capacity for
rap, far above average. Or, (ii) you knowth not of what you speaketh.

>Mike Falkner
>FALK...@cnsvax.uwec.edu

Cheers,

Ross-c

PS: I will be away for over a week and will not be able to reply to any
retort posted too soon (will be deleted before I see it). Here's your chance
to get 'the last word' :-)

random bitch

unread,
Jul 1, 1993, 5:00:13 PM7/1/93
to
In article <20n3m3$e...@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> dud...@treefort.Corp.Sun.COM writes:
>In article X...@prolix.apana.org.au, d...@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton) writes:
>-> In article <CANNAM.93J...@dagobert.sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE>, Chris Cannam writes:
>->
>-> >
>-> > Dave Williams [da...@dsbc.icl.co.uk] writes:
>-> > :
>-> > : Rap is GARBAGE. It is RUBBISH. It cannot be called MUSIC.
>->
>-> Rap music about about empowering people with something that many
>-> others dislike. Rap music is about rebellion. Rap Music is
>-> about being a member of a group, and anyone outside the group is
>-> deemed -against- the group.
>->
>
>Yes, rap music is at the point that rock and roll was in the early
>50s. It is funny how one hears the same arguments now, about rap,
>as one heard in the 50s, about rock.

a remarkable similarity is that they both were black creations
taken into the mainstream and commercialized by whites.

only thanks to Marky Mark and Vanilla Ice do a lot of smalltown america
12 year old girls call themselves "rap" fans. unfortunately, that
gives a bad impression of what rap is all about if that's all people
hear of it.

so much for my idea of ever getting an alt.music.rap newsgroup...
if people argue over whether or not it's even *music* god forbid, they'd
let us have our own group. it sucks that to get a newsgroup you have to
have people who wouldn't even be reading it voting on whether or not it
should exist. I'd never read a country & western group or an opera
group but I think they should be there for people who care enough.
Of course, my solution would be to bring the alt.rap crowd
over to the current rec.music groups & do their posting there to the
point where people got sick of all the rap posts & INSIST we get our own
rec.music group.

Terra

Gregory Taylor

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Jul 1, 1993, 3:51:02 PM7/1/93
to
It's halfwit vs. halfwit!

haus...@research.nj.nec.com (Robert C.Haushalter) writes:
>In article <dave...@podbox.UUCP> da...@podbox.UUCP (David Chung) writes:
>>Is anyone else sick of this ongoing "debate" about dissing peoples music?
> ####### #
>
>Yes almost as sick as your "spelling".

At this point we turn from the ring (where the boys are slugging it out) to
the judges. Haushalter was asleep during that time when the verb "dish" made
its way out of gay culture and dropped the h and doubled the s. He loses some
points on the punctuation here, too ("Yes almost" instead of "Yes, almost" or
even the popular "Yes. Almost"). Looks like David Chung's the winner on
the judge's decision, although he's clearly got some possessive or contraction
difficulties.

Next up, yet another lame-O challenger from the heartland who could "rap"
better than the brothers with only a few short hours or days of effort....


random bitch

unread,
Jul 1, 1993, 5:08:52 PM7/1/93
to
In article <C9CIH...@ent-img.com> bi...@ent-img.com (Bill Heiden) writes:
>In article <20n3m3$e...@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> dud...@treefort.Corp.Sun.COM writes:
>
>>Yes, rap music is at the point that rock and roll was in the early
>>50s. It is funny how one hears the same arguments now, about rap,
>>as one heard in the 50s, about rock.
>
> Yeah, all those songs about beating up Korean store owners, rape fantasies,
>drive-bys, gay bashing, and killing cops had the parents of the 50's in
>an uproar.

How come you hear those messages in rap songs but you fail to note
the songs about racism, the educational system's decline, teenage pregnancy
and abortion, anti-drugs, pro-God (Run DMC's "Down with the King"),
self-respect? Not to mention the songs that aren't about poliical or
social messages at all but that instead just give respect to certain
aspects of american culture like early jazz musicians, strong black women
and role models? Seems that you selectively take in the aspects that
you want to stereotype rap with.

Just like rock-n-roll. I can't count how many songs I've heard about
heroin, suicide, Satan, not to mention, "niggers and faggots" as Guns N
Roses calls them? Obviously, songs aren't going to be abut the same
things as they were in the 50's because unlike the days of the Mickey Mouse
Club and the Boy Scouts, young adults growing up today have to deal with
slightly more sophistocated and dangerous situations, not who to ask
to prom or what kind of car the girl from Pasadena happens to drive.


> bi...@ent-img.com


Terra

Ben Casey McDonald

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Jul 1, 1993, 5:34:14 PM7/1/93
to
In article <20vj8t$c...@scratchy.reed.edu>, te...@reed.edu (random bitch):

>only thanks to Marky Mark and Vanilla Ice do a lot of smalltown america
>12 year old girls call themselves "rap" fans. unfortunately, that
>gives a bad impression of what rap is all about if that's all people
>hear of it.

Ah, yes. "tis much better they should hear about Dr. Dre' dragging
female DJs around by their hair, or keep a scorecard of what rap
star is doing time in a court room this week.

>so much for my idea of ever getting an alt.music.rap newsgroup...
>if people argue over whether or not it's even *music* god forbid, they'd
>let us have our own group. it sucks that to get a newsgroup you have to
>have people who wouldn't even be reading it voting on whether or not it
>should exist. I'd never read a country & western group or an opera
>group but I think they should be there for people who care enough.
>Of course, my solution would be to bring the alt.rap crowd
>over to the current rec.music groups & do their posting there to the
>point where people got sick of all the rap posts & INSIST we get our own
>rec.music group.

Wild.

"I don't think you'll *let* us have a news group"
"I, of course, would be *fair* about it, so you are being unfair to me."
"Therefore, we will flood other groups until we get what we want."

Nice way to behave, bitch.

+-- Sylvia --------------------------------------- syl...@cvi.hahnemann.edu --+

dudley

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Jul 1, 1993, 6:06:12 PM7/1/93
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In article 83...@cnsvax.uwec.edu, falk...@cnsvax.uwec.edu () writes:
> Puh-leeze don't let rap get to the same heights as pop/rock did in the
> 50's/60's, else I may as well trash my radio...

Unfortunately, rock has fallen from those heights. The ideals haven't,
they are still alive in rap, while rock has become mainstream music to be
used in beer commercials. You should trash your TV as well.

Dudley
.

Adam Bradley

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Jul 2, 1993, 1:11:03 AM7/2/93
to

>only thanks to Marky Mark and Vanilla Ice do a lot of smalltown america
^^^^^^^^^^^
I especially like the start of ICE ICE baby ... not

dx

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Jul 2, 1993, 2:02:24 AM7/2/93
to
R o d Johnson...

> Tell you what. I'll chip in five dollars to the "send Mike Falkner to
> college" fund if you write and record a rap. Now I'll bet we could
> get a couple hundred others here to do the same, just for the pleasure
> of laughing at the ultimate product. How's that for incentive?

Are you kidding? Only $5. I'd happily chip in that much to get a canonical
example of the sort of lame rap that the typical bigotted Usenet poster would
produce. It could become the key in my radio arsenal of bad music.

Count me in, Rod.

-dx
--
--
"Some corrective historical lenses should dispel your current
sense of apocalyptic vertigo." -Gregory A. Taylor

Ray Shea

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Jul 1, 1993, 5:49:42 PM7/1/93
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> Ross, you're shrewd... Very shrewd... You just can't seem to accept you and
>your blessed music have been found out for what they are.

Fortunately for us, you're gonna blow the lid off the whole conspiracy, right?

Don't you have some homework to do?

> [Though trying to come up with "rap" would be a complete waste of time
>compared to coming up with actual music...]


"I could beat you up if I wanted to, I just don't want to." GodDAMN, man,
how old are you?


I got $5. We're up to $10 so far, plus free exposure in New Jack Reviews,
and the chance to finally prove all of us rec.music.misc bullies WRONG.
How could you possibly pass that up?

--
Ray Shea "To fail is to be a victim, to be a victim

UniSQL, Inc. of my choice...maybe partying will help." --d.boon
unisql!r...@cs.utexas.edu "As any dominant paradigmista will tell you, no one
DoD #0372 : '88 Hawk GT makes non-music like an outsider." -- g.taylor

Clayton Glad

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Jul 2, 1993, 11:22:21 AM7/2/93
to
d...@netcom.com (dx) writes:

>R o d Johnson...

>> Tell you what. I'll chip in five dollars to the "send Mike Falkner to
>> college" fund if you write and record a rap. Now I'll bet we could
>> get a couple hundred others here to do the same, just for the pleasure
>> of laughing at the ultimate product. How's that for incentive?

>Are you kidding? Only $5. I'd happily chip in that much to get a canonical
>example of the sort of lame rap that the typical bigotted Usenet poster would
>produce. It could become the key in my radio arsenal of bad music.

Ray:

> I got $5. We're up to $10 so far, plus free exposure in New Jack Reviews,
> and the chance to finally prove all of us rec.music.misc bullies WRONG.
> How could you possibly pass that up?

I've got a better idea, guys. I'm willing to offer Mr. Falkner
studio production time and the opportunity for a live freestyle on
the second-longest running hip-hop program on the air. I'm putting
up $50 towards airfare, he's welcome to stay at my place while he's
in town. No doubt dx will demonstrate similar hospitality.

So that's $65. Not much more until we're able to broadcast proof
of the hip-hop hoax to the entire Bay Area. Of course I'll be
happy to make a tape of the event available to other net.broadcasters
so that the Truth May be Told.

-- Clay

Kevin Scott

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Jul 2, 1993, 3:14:59 PM7/2/93
to
> Now we are in an age where rock has become mainstream. It has lost its edge.
> Look at television, which uses rock to sell beer and cars. This was unheard
> of in the 50s, but now that the masses are comfortable with rock, it is
> perfectly acceptable.
>
> Now rap has filled the progressive music void formerly held by big band and
> rock. Those who feel comfortable with rock now feel threatened and so, lash
> out at rap. In most cases, they know very little about it except that it is
> different. It is a common human reaction to fear that which is different.
>
> dudley
> .
>

That's fairly blunt. Say what you will about rock, rebel or not, there
was at least music involved. Rap is rhythm and lyrics and music is a
complete nonentity. Because I listen to music for music's sake and
couldn't care less about lyrics, there is nothing appealing about rap for
me at all. It has nothing to do with fearing it.

Kevin

pp...@newsit.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com

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Jul 2, 1993, 7:17:08 PM7/2/93
to

>> Now we are in an age where rock has become mainstream. It has lost its edge.
>> Look at television, which uses rock to sell beer and cars. This was unheard
>> of in the 50s, but now that the masses are comfortable with rock, it is
>> perfectly acceptable.
>>
>> Now rap has filled the progressive music void formerly held by big band and
>> rock. Those who feel comfortable with rock now feel threatened and so, lash
>> out at rap. In most cases, they know very little about it except that it is
>> different. It is a common human reaction to fear that which is different.
>>
>That's fairly blunt. Say what you will about rock, rebel or not, there
>was at least music involved. Rap is rhythm and lyrics and music is a
>complete nonentity. Because I listen to music for music's sake and
>couldn't care less about lyrics, there is nothing appealing about rap for
>me at all. It has nothing to do with fearing it.


THAT'S IT! Rap isn't rhythm and lyrics, it's rhythm and paraphrasing
^ ^ ^
(get it, r-a-p?). Never mind.

But I do agree with the last poster. Fear has nothing to do with it.
I hate rap because the artists don't sing, they chant, and badly at
that. I just like singing in my music. It also has nothing to do with
the era involved. I like singers from decades ago such as Billie Holiday,
and current singers like Sam Phillips and Sade. By the first poster's
reasoning, I should hate today's music because it is not my era (I'm
pushing 40).

Pete

Robert J. Racusin

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Jul 3, 1993, 7:15:56 PM7/3/93
to
I gotta agree with Pete on this. Rap has a good beat, but thats about
it. I listen to music not just for the lyrics, but also for the
instrumental part. Bands like the Dead, Eric Clapton, and Led Zeppelin
have very talented guitarists and other musicians as well as vocalists.
Sure some of these folks might cover other people's songs sometimes,
but rappers don't even bother to cover songs, they just "sample" from
them (that is, play one line from somebody else's good song,over and
over, and talk in front of it.) Pete summed it up well when he said he
likes to hear *singing* in his music.
Flame me if you must, I also have to add that this new grunge/thrash
stuff all sounds the same. Gimme the oldies any day.
Jess Racusin
"Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if
you look at it right" --Hunter/Garcia

Gregory Taylor

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Jul 4, 1993, 4:29:44 PM7/4/93
to
Lordy, this young man's sure set up his picnic table cloth right in the centre
of the old minefield. Clearly, he's brought along a full thermos of testosterone
in the bargain. And it seems as if every time this comes up, the ante goes up a
little more: Money, production time, discounts toward a plane ticket, *and* a
live spot. Not even the shrillest lame white dude has ever gotten this far. Is
it shrewdness? Thousands wonder, and dozens more are plainly amused.

But hey - he *could* lay down the noise better than Public Enemy....if he wanted
to. He could write an 8-part fugue, too. Local knowledge, local ignorance.

Plus ca change [and kicking in *my* 5 big ones],
Gregory.

Richard Caley

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Jul 2, 1993, 9:24:36 PM7/2/93
to

Oh god, not again.

You'd think that the net.reactionaries would at least be able to pick
up on something less than a decade old to complain about.

--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<

Ray Shea

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Jul 5, 1993, 5:41:13 PM7/5/93
to
In article <oJo36B...@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> ke...@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Kevin Scott) writes:
>
>That's fairly blunt. Say what you will about rock, rebel or not,
>there was at least music involved. Rap is rhythm and lyrics and
>music is a complete nonentity.

That's fairly blunt. I'm curious, Kev: first you say "rap is rhythm"
and then you say that "music is a complete nonentity" in rap. It makes me
wonder if you are possibly working from a definition of "music" that
is different from the commonly accepted one. Care to fill me in? What
definition of music are you using that excludes rap but still manages to
encompass all of the "non-Western" (for lack of a better term; loaded, I
know, but let's not get into it right now) music of the world with which
I'm sure you are quite familiar?

>Because I listen to music for music's sake and >couldn't care less
about lyrics, there is nothing appealing about rap for >me at all.

Maybe you just don't like music that isn't easy to hum along to. It's OK, I
used to have a problem with rhyhmically uninteresting music myself, but I got
over it.

>It has nothing to do with fearing it.

Although it may have something to do with a wee bit of cultural tunnelvision.

Ray Shea

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Jul 5, 1993, 5:46:44 PM7/5/93
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In article <C9K8oK.5np@da_vinci.it.uswc.uswest.com> pp...@newsit.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com writes:
>THAT'S IT! Rap isn't rhythm and lyrics, it's rhythm and paraphrasing
> ^ ^ ^
>(get it, r-a-p?). Never mind.

Possibly Rhythm And Paraphrasing is for kids today what
Race-mixing & Outright Communism, Kiddies, was 40 years ago? Dunno, I'll
have to think about it.

Kevin Scott

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Jul 6, 1993, 4:36:23 AM7/6/93
to
r...@unisql.UUCP (Ray Shea) writes:

> In article <oJo36B...@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> ke...@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Kevi


> >
> >That's fairly blunt. Say what you will about rock, rebel or not,
> >there was at least music involved. Rap is rhythm and lyrics and
> >music is a complete nonentity.
>
> That's fairly blunt. I'm curious, Kev: first you say "rap is rhythm"
> and then you say that "music is a complete nonentity" in rap. It makes me
> wonder if you are possibly working from a definition of "music" that
> is different from the commonly accepted one. Care to fill me in? What
> definition of music are you using that excludes rap but still manages to
> encompass all of the "non-Western" (for lack of a better term; loaded, I
> know, but let's not get into it right now) music of the world with which
> I'm sure you are quite familiar?
>

I use the term "music" to mean melody (I'm not pretending to define it,
as you so colorfully put it). Something which you don't get a lot of on
the radio anymore, least of all on your favorite rap or Top-40 station.
Rhythm is fine. And I'm aware of the roots of rhythm. But I don't like
it by itself any more than you probably don't like gregorian chant which
is completely devoid of rhythm (but all melody).

> >Because I listen to music for music's sake and >couldn't care less
> about lyrics, there is nothing appealing about rap for >me at all.
>
> Maybe you just don't like music that isn't easy to hum along to. It's OK, I
> used to have a problem with rhyhmically uninteresting music myself, but I got
> over it.

Sometimes. I also like music with bizarre melodies. What I find off-
putting about rap is not just the fact that it's devoid of melody, but
the fact that the lyrics can get preachy. That's not why I listen to
music, to have centuries of race guilt dumped on me. It might be someone
else's cup of tea. It's not mine. OK? Nor am I denying its impact on
society, nor its popularity. I just don't personally like it and it's
not because I'm AFRAID of it.

>
> >It has nothing to do with fearing it.
>
> Although it may have something to do with a wee bit of cultural tunnelvision.

I think not. Forgive me for having an opinion; I have one on occasion.

Kevin

dudley

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Jul 6, 1993, 11:11:37 AM7/6/93
to
In article oJo36B...@sys6626.bison.mb.ca, ke...@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Kevin Scott) writes:
> > [...stuff about fearing what one doesn't understand removed...]

>
> That's fairly blunt. Say what you will about rock, rebel or not, there
> was at least music involved. Rap is rhythm and lyrics and music is a
> complete nonentity. Because I listen to music for music's sake and
> couldn't care less about lyrics, there is nothing appealing about rap for
> me at all. It has nothing to do with fearing it.

If you don't fear it, why are you being so reactionary? Music, as defined
by Webster's, is "the art and science of combining vocal or instrumental
sounds or tones in varying melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre, especially
so as to form structurally complete and emotionally expressive compositions."

I don't know what rap artists you have been listening to, but those I consider
my favorites surely meet the criteria for music. Can you back up your statement
with some facts? Have you ever listened to a rap album from start to finish?

Dudley
.

dudley

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Jul 6, 1993, 12:02:47 PM7/6/93
to
In article 5np@da_vinci.it.uswc.uswest.com, pp...@newsit.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com () writes:
>
> But I do agree with the last poster. Fear has nothing to do with it.
> I hate rap because the artists don't sing, they chant, and badly at
> that. I just like singing in my music. It also has nothing to do with
> the era involved. I like singers from decades ago such as Billie Holiday,
> and current singers like Sam Phillips and Sade. By the first poster's
> reasoning, I should hate today's music because it is not my era (I'm
> pushing 40).

Maybe you don't think you reactionary feelings are a result of fear, but
your ignorance is surely showing with your blanket statement about rappers
chanting badly. How can we value the judgement of someone who has obviously
listened to very little of the art form they are trying to condem?

Oh, and age has nothing to do with it. I passed 40 years ago, but I have kept
an open mind. Sure, I thought rap was pretty awful when my only experiences
were listening to if from the bass-blaster in the car next to me at the traffic
light, but I decided that there must be something there if it was becoming so
popular. Rather than dismiss it, I studied it. I read reviews and articles
about rap music. I bought a few albums. I listened carefully...

Quess what. I found some of it to be very good. Some contained carefully
worded and thoughtful lyrics. Some contained excellent instrumentals. Some
contained danceable rhythms.

Sure, some of it is commercial trash, but much of it is excellent. You are
free not to listen, but don't go passing off your ignorance as fact.

dudley
.