summary (Re: pROTOpUNK...)
Alan McBride
...a summary of discussion on protopunk. Thanks
for some really interesting stuff.
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From: amcb...@axion.bt.co.uk (Alan McBride)
...what is protopunk? Who, when and where?
All I have is a description of the new york
dolls as being protopunk.
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From: EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu
It means they were doing something that looked or sounded kind of punk
before punk was a recognized style.
I'd say the main reason New York Dolls would be proto-punk is becuz they
were managed by Malcom McLaren prior to his manging the Sex Pistols.
There are many many bands which could be described as proto-punk from
the Ramones on down to Iggy, the Troggs, Eddie Cochran, and the Bauhaus band
(the one from the 1930s, not the newer band) ;)
That's really the problem: there are too many proto-punk bands that people
have labled as proto-punk after the fact. At the time, they were mostly all
just rock bands of one sort or another.
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From: gala...@nyu.edu (Philip Galanter)
EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu writes:
|I'd say the main reason New York Dolls would be proto-punk is becuz they
|were managed by Malcom McLaren prior to his manging the Sex Pistols.
|There are many many bands which could be described as proto-punk from
|the Ramones on down to Iggy, the Troggs, Eddie Cochran, and the Bauhaus
|band (the one from the 1930s, not the newer band) ;)
McLaren only managed the Dolls towards the end of their career, such as it
was, after the Dolls had already made their mark.
Proto-punk is vague, but it should in part mean "before punk" and I see
the Ramones as being the first punk band and not being before punk. In
fact the British punk scene was spawned in large part as a reaction to a
Ramones performance there. This is according to what I have read various
members of the Sex Pistols and the Clash said. For example, Sid Vicious
idolized Dee Dee Ramone and wanted to play bass after seeing the Ramones
for the first time.
The New York Dolls played a key role in that they served as a bridge from
Glitter Rock (Bowie, T-Rex, Gary G., etc.) to Punk. They moved from a
softer to harder guitar sound (compare the Dolls demo tapes to the final
Rundgren (!) produced first album) and made explicit the seedy and dark
side of trans/bi/gutter-sexuality and hard drug use that was always a
given too soft a focus by the Glitter Rockers.
I saw the New York Dolls perform in Chicago at the Aragon Ballroom and it
changed my life.
Also, no discussion of proto-punk would be complete without mentioning the
Velvet Underground and Iggy Pop and the Stooges.
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From: DSTE...@cmsa.gmr.com
gala...@nyu.edu (Philip Galanter)writes:
>Proto-punk is vague, but it should in part mean "before punk" and I see
>the Ramones as being the first punk band and not being before punk. In
>fact the British punk scene was spawned in large part as a reaction to a
>Ramones performance there. This is according to what I have read various
>members of the Sex Pistols and the Clash said. For example, Sid Vicious
>idolized Dee Dee Ramone and wanted to play bass after seeing the Ramones
>for the first time.
This point is disputed in Glen Matlock's book "I was a Teenage Sex Pistol."
He says they (the actual Pistols-Jones, Cook, Rotten, and Matlock) saw the
famous Ramones show and like them, but thought they were trying to do
something different (like, be a comedy band). He also claims the Clash were
much more influenced by the Pistols than anyone else. Then again, Matlock is
hardly an disinterested party.
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From: EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu
gala...@nyu.edu (Philip Galanter) writes:
> EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu writes:
> | I'd say the main reason New York Dolls would be proto-punk is becuz they
> | were managed by Malcom McLaren prior to his manging the Sex Pistols.
>
>McLaren only managed the Dolls towards the end of their career, such as it
>was, after the Dolls had already made their mark.
Whatever... He did manage them, one way or another, and then went on to
England to manage a boutique, and then the Sex Pistols.
Don't get me wrong! I'd definitely call the NY Dolls protopunk!
>Proto-punk is vague, but it should in part mean "before punk" and I see
>the Ramones as being the first punk band and not being before punk. In
>fact the British punk scene was spawned in large part as a reaction to a
>Ramones performance there. This is according to what I have read various
>members of the Sex Pistols and the Clash said. For example, Sid Vicious
>idolized Dee Dee Ramone and wanted to play bass after seeing the Ramones
>for the first time.
That is what I heard too. I also heard that the first genuine punk tune
was "New Rose" by ... um... can't remember....Stranglers?? I dunno...
Since the punk movement did not exist in the US as it did in England, I'd
say by default the first punk was British. I saw a movie of Jerry Lee lewis
and other rockers playing in England in 1972-73, the auidence was filled
with neo-rockers, Eddie Cochran wannabees, hippies, and one person who was the
spitting image of the punk bondage/spiked-hair fashion ala Sex Pistols--
clearly this was a look in search of a sound.
The Ramones describe(d) themselves as rock and roll (New York's premier
rock and roll band, as I recall).
Anyway, Sid was the second bass player after Glen (Gene?) Matlock who played
on Nevermind...
>The New York Dolls played a key role in that they served as a bridge from
>Glitter Rock (Bowie, T-Rex, Gary G., etc.) to Punk. They moved from a
>softer to harder guitar sound (compare the Dolls demo tapes to the final
>Rundgren (!) produced first album) and made explicit the seedy and dark
>side of trans/bi/gutter-sexuality and hard drug use that was always a
>given too soft a focus by the Glitter Rockers.
Don't forget Brian Eno's cross-dressing with Roxy Music as early as '69.
I'm sure there were several Femme-impersonators singing in Berlin before
WWII, as well. ;)
>I saw the New York Dolls perform in Chicago at the Aragon Ballroom and it
>changed my life.
>Also, no discussion of proto-punk would be complete without mentioning the
>Velvet Underground and Iggy Pop and the Stooges.
Velvet UG? Nice folk-ish music fron NYC, but not punk IMHO.
I did mention Iggy, above. I'm from Detroit, but I'm not going to claim punk
started here.;-) Or Ypsilanti (Flint?) Michigan, for that matter.
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From: sw...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann)
In article <80...@rphroy.ph.gmr.com> DSTE...@cmsa.gmr.com writes:
>
>This point is disputed in Glen Matlock's book "I was a Teenage Sex Pistol."
>He says they (the actual Pistols-Jones, Cook, Rotten, and Matlock) saw the
>famous Ramones show and like them, but thought they were trying to do
>something different (like, be a comedy band). He also claims the Clash were
>much more influenced by the Pistols than anyone else. Then again, Matlock
>is hardly an disinterested party.
I heard a quote once from Joe Strummer that went (this is as close as I
can remember it): "When I saw The Sex Pistols, they didn't know how to
play their intruments or anything, but they were up there saying SO FUCKIN'
WHAT? And I thought 'I can do that'. "
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From: gala...@nyu.edu (Philip Galanter)
DSTE...@cmsa.gmr.com writes:
| I heard a quote once from Joe Strummer that went (this is as close as I
| can remember it): "When I saw The Sex Pistols, they didn't know how to
| play their intruments or anything, but they were up there saying SO
| FUCKIN' WHAT? And I thought 'I can do that'. "
But keep in mind that Strummer was in bands before the Pistols were
formed...its not like he saw the Sex Pistols and then decided to buy a
guitar...
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From: gala...@nyu.edu (Philip Galanter)
In article <80...@rphroy.ph.gmr.com> DSTE...@cmsa.gmr.com writes:
|
|gala...@nyu.edu (Philip Galanter)writes:
|>Proto-punk is vague, but it should in part mean "before punk" and I see
|>the Ramones as being the first punk band and not being before punk. In
|>fact the British punk scene was spawned in large part as a reaction to a
|>Ramones performance there. This is according to what I have read various
|>members of the Sex Pistols and the Clash said. For example, Sid Vicious
|>idolized Dee Dee Ramone and wanted to play bass after seeing the Ramones
|>for the first time.
|This point is disputed in Glen Matlock's book "I was a Teenage Sex Pistol."
|He says they (the actual Pistols-Jones, Cook, Rotten, and Matlock) saw the
|famous Ramones show and like them, but thought they were trying to do
|something different (like, be a comedy band). He also claims the Clash were
|much more influenced by the Pistols than anyone else. Then again, Matlock is
|hardly an disinterested party.
Interesting enough, and I realize that you may or may not agree with
me or Matlock, but the fact remains that the Ramones preceded the
British punk scene and started the CBGB's punk scene. The gap between the
Ramones and the Pistols is much smaller than, say, the gap between the
NYDolls and the Ramones. A lot of folks seem to think that punk was a
British invention, and thats just not so...although the British version of
punk is a British invention.
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From: gl...@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Clayton Glad)
gala...@nyu.edu (Philip Galanter) writes:
>[...] the fact remains that the Ramones preceded the
>British punk scene and started the CBGB's punk scene.
Well, not quite. At least not alone. Hell and Verlaine literally built
the stage at CB's in order to have somewhere to play. This was circa
1974.
>The gap between the Ramones and the Pistols is much smaller than, say,
>the gap between the NYDolls and the Ramones.
There wasn't too much "gap" between any of the three. Dee Dee played in
an early version of the Heartbreakers, and Johansen and Sylvain were still
gigging as the Dolls by the time the Ramones were Bowery regulars. Some
version of all three bands existed in 1976.
>A lot of folks seem to think that punk was a
>British invention, and thats just not so...although the British version of
>punk is a British invention.
A lot of folks also find a lot more in common between the American and
Brit versions than was really there. There's no doubt that the Dolls
especially, the Stooges, and the Bowery groups must have influenced the
first BritPunk bands -- Steve Jones' guitar is completely unimaginable
without Thunders', for instance -- but there are plenty of dissimilarities,
too. And there was maybe even more influence travelling the other direction
across the Atlantic after 1977.
McLaren admitted that the image he sold in London had been lifted
wholesale from Richard Hell, but the Bowery scene was a lot more diverse
than people seem to remember, and not too many of those bands can really
be seen as precursors to what came to be known as (you'll excuse the
expression) the mainstream of punk.
Even the Ramones, the band lots of people count as the first punks, called
themselves "the Beach Boys of New York," and always wanted to be known as
a "pop" band. CB's around 1975-1978 didn't feature thrash band after thrash
band as it does today. In fact, of the Bowery groups one could reasonably
call "punk" it's hard to think of one outside of the Ramones that's had
much lasting impact. The influential Bowery bands were the "artists" who
were the target of a lot of Rotten invective.
Which is part of the reason they threw him out on his ass when he came
into CB's.
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From: pos...@cms.cc.wayne.edu
EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu writes:
>That is what I heard too. I also heard that the first genuine punk tune
>was "New Rose" by ... um... can't remember....Stranglers?? I dunno...
^^^^^^^^^^
WHAT A F*UCKING POSEUR! It was THE *DAMNED* dammit! *Not* the Stranglers
as you claim. I suggest you get the facts straight before you spew!
Get a life! Or spread your disinformation elsewhere! :)
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From: sme...@milton.u.washington.edu (William Warner)
gala...@nyu.edu (Philip Galanter) writes:
>The New York Dolls played a key role in that they served as a bridge from
>Glitter Rock (Bowie, T-Rex, Gary G., etc.) to Punk. They moved from a
>softer to harder guitar sound (compare the Dolls demo tapes to the final
>Rundgren (!) produced first album) and made explicit the seedy and dark
>side of trans/bi/gutter-sexuality and hard drug use that was always a
>given too soft a focus by the Glitter Rockers. I saw the New York Dolls
>perform in Chicago at the Aragon Ballroom and it changed my life.
>Also, no discussion of proto-punk would be complete without mentioning the
>Velvet Underground and Iggy Pop and the Stooges.
I agree with all of the above, but not having been there I can say with
out any embarassment that I can't stand The New York Dolls or any of the
solo stuff released later. Also weird about David Johansen/Buster Poin-
dexter.
Though the timing is a little different, the Velvet Underground is proto-punk
for the same reasons cited above, I think. An added bonus is that you can
listen to a whole album and not throw up.
I think the Ramones were the first punk band. For those who never could
understand the attraction of the Ramones, I encourage you to listen
again. They grow on you (unlike the Dolls!). The first punk song has to
be 'Search and Destroy' by Iggy and the Stooges.
For the original poster, if you thought protopunk was some cool new sound,
sorry to disappoint. The whole subject is motivated by search for more
good punk rock, which punk rock bands like the Ramones, the Damned, and so
on quit delivering long ago. Even if we pass the mantle to later bands like
the Birthday Party and Siouxie and Mission of Burma and Black Flag, we still
wind up frustrated after a couple of choice disks. Trying to find out why this
happens, and hopefully discovering a few good songs, causes people to start
digging in the past. Eventually, everyone discovers the Jazz era, which is a
little less frustrating.
A really interesting topic; can anyone recommend any books?
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From: sn...@cad607.intel.edu (Scott Neal)
I'm surprised that people in this newsgroup haven't gone
WAY back to some of the '60s punk bands such as the Chocolate Watchband,
Standells, Sonics (from Seattle, no less!), Litter (from Minneapolis),
Thirteenth Floor Elevators, Electric Prunes, Seeds, Misunderstood, etc.,
as prime inspiration for MANY contemporary alternative bands.
Talk about ProtoPunk...
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From: EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu
sn...@cad607.intel.edu (Scott Neal) writes:
> I'm surprised that people in this newsgroup haven't gone
>WAY back to some of the '60s punk bands such as the Chocolate Watchband,
>Standells, Sonics (from Seattle, no less!), Litter (from Minneapolis),
>Thirteenth Floor Elevators, Electric Prunes, Seeds, Misunderstood, etc.,
>as prime inspiration for MANY contemporary alternative bands.
> Talk about ProtoPunk...
OK, I will...
Actually, i was thinking about mentioning the Fugs. Certainly _Kill for Peace_
is as punk as anything the Sex Pistols ever did (not to mention the
Velvet UG ;) The Fugs had the real underground following (since they were
a real underground band), the silk-screened bootleg-style album covers
(remember _Never mind the Bollocks_?), the New York beatnik connection with
Allen Ginsberg, the anarchy thing, the whole nine yards.
Somehow Elec. Prunes' _Mass in B minor_ just doesn't seem punk by comparison.;)
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From: sn...@cad607.intel.edu (Scott Neal)
EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu writes:
|> Somehow Elec. Prunes' _Mass in B minor_ just doesn't seem punk
|> by comparison.;)
Despite the smiley, I still feel a need to defend one of the '60's greatest
(and most misunderstood) bands, the Electric Prunes...
The Prunes first burst onto the scene in early '67 with their second single,
"I Had Too Much To Dream (Last Night)", a feedback-drenched excursion into
nocturnal emissions that was a moderate hit on both coasts. This was
followed by another amazing single, "Get Me to the World On Time" which
is best described as Bo Diddley through a fuzz box and a Leslie speaker
while on Acid! Next came their debut album on Reprise (the brilliantly
titled "I Had Too Much to Dream Last Night/Get Me to the World On Time")
which contained 6-7 incredible songs and 4-5 songs that should have been
thrown in the trash.
Later in '67 (May-June?), another Reprise album came out called
"Underground"--the back cover shows a solarized picture of the band with
the caption "The Electric Prunes travel Up to the Underground"! This
album is fantastic, despite one or two songs that are only good. Absoulte
must-hears include "Hideaway", "Long Day's Flight", and "I Happen to Love
You".
These guys use effects that I've never heard anywhere else--a really unique
sound. They even used an Autoharp (piped through a Leslie speaker in true
Prunes fashion.)
Unfortunately, through some shady business dealings, the band lost the
use of their name to Reprise, who still wanted to cash in on their success.
This resulted in three truly terrible albums, none of which featured any of
the original members of the band. These include the aforementioned "Mass
in F Minor" and also "Release of an Oath" and "Good Old Rock and Roll
Music", each of which should be avoided like the plague.
To get the cream-of-the-crop output of the Prunes, get the Edsel Records
album "Long Day's Flight". I have it on vinyl, but I've seen the CD also.
It contains 18 or 19 songs (total of about 50 minutes) and completely avoids
all of the garbage songs released under their name.
Ahhhhhhh, I feel much better now :-D
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From: sme...@milton.u.washington.edu (William Warner)
EIV...@cms.cc.wayne.edu writes:
>sn...@cad607.intel.edu (Scott Neal) writes:
>>I'm surprised that people in this newsgroup haven't gone
>>WAY back to some of the '60s punk bands such as the Chocolate Watchband,
>>Standells, Sonics (from Seattle, no less!), Litter (from Minneapolis),
>>Thirteenth Floor Elevators, Electric Prunes, Seeds, Misunderstood, etc.,
>>as prime inspiration for MANY contemporary alternative bands.
>>Talk about ProtoPunk...
>Actually, i was thinking about mentioning the Fugs. Certainly _Kill for Peace_
>is as punk as anything the Sex Pistols ever did (not to mention the
>Velvet UG ;) ) The Fugs had the real underground following (since they were
>a real underground band), the silk-screened bootleg-style album covers
>(remember _Never mind the Bollocks_?), the New York beatnik connection with
>Allen Ginsberg, the anarchy thing, the whole nine yards.
And the Sonics _Strychnine_. MC5 were involved with a revolutionary group
in the 60's called the White Panther Party.
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From: speterse%peruvian...@cs.utah.edu
sme...@milton.u.washington.edu (William Warner) writes:
>A really interesting topic; can anyone recommend any books?
As it happens, I just finished *England's Dreaming: Anarchy, Sex Pistols,
Punk Rock, and Beyond* by John Savage which I thoroughly enjoyed. It
does get a little sociological in places, but mostly it's a really good,
well researched history of punk thru 1979, focusing on McClaren and the
Sex Pistols. Also included is an excellent discography.
I wasn't "there", so I can't vouch for the book's authenticity. However,
practically everything rings true, and I didn't catch any obvious factual
howlers (on the "Hendrix invented feedback" level).
I highly recommend the book, which looks to be the definitive book on the
subject for a long time to come.
Are there any Bromley Contingent folks (or for that matter, any pre-Bill
Grundy punks) on the net who care to comment?
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e-mail: amcb...@axion.bt.co.uk (Alan McBride)
Phone: +44 473 646077 Fax: +44 473 644605
Mail: sdd, g61, b81, btl, ip5 7re, uk
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