McDonna Fans Confuse Facts and Opinions was,Re: McDonna and Writing
Rick Kleffel
A couple of weeks ago, I posted a brief message indicating the fact that
a credit on a song does not mean the person so credited neccessarily had
anything to do with the writing of that song. I said this at the end of a
long and at that time becoming tedious debate with a couple of real die
hard McDonna fans, in response to their informing the world that because
her name appeared on several, not all of the songs, she was involved in
the writing. It was merely a data point, and I said so, and again, as usual,
I offered no facts, since I don't spend my free time immersed in the life
of some sleazy celebrity, but rather, tending to things outside of Usenet.
In this debate, I've tried to offer reasons that the point of view that
"McDonna is an empty product, full of sound and money, signifying nothing",
is in fact a reasonable and understandable point of view, which of course,
is something that's *way* beyond the understanding of most McDonna fans.
Typically the responses have been, well where are your facts to back up your
opinions. Frankly the only facts about McDonna are her sales figures, her
net worth, her charts ratings etc. None of these facts support the
statements, made in between insults, below. My question for the McDonna
fans is this: Where are the facts to support that she writes all the songs
she is credited for? So far, all you've offered is assertions. I offer
that her name on the credit is not enough. Do you have something beyond this?
But this prelude aside, let's jump in and see what our oh-so-level-headed
friends have to say this morning....
t...@mthpgc.ATT.COM (Tom Wu) writes:
>da...@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DANIEL AGOSTINHO OLIVEIRA) writes:
>>
>> How does Madonna choice which songs she will use Her "CLOUT" on and declare
>> herself co-writer? Is it arbitruary? Or Does she say "Oh I think I co-wrote
>> about eight songs on this album?
>
>That's basically the same point I brought up in my response. Dismissing
>someone's credits as some sort of industry "standard practice" is logically
>vacuous without evidence.
I simply offered a suggestion that would readily explain why her name appears
on the song to which she may have contributed nothing. What you're doing
is dismissing my hypothesis without offering any evidence of your own.
>> Someone comments that an Artists writes songs. They receive a response
>> that Madonna writes songs. So now you say "oh she doesn't really write the
>> songs she just puts her name on it.
So you say, "DOES SO!"
>> Where is you EVIDENCE to back up your statements?
And yours?
>They have none, as usual.
Are you denying that:
1. Big name stars put their name on material they never co-wrote by virtue of
their being big stars? Can you say "MILLI VANILLI"?
2. McDonna put her name on material she never wrote, by virtue of her being
a big star?
3. That it is possible that McDonna might have put her name on a song to which
she contributed nothing, without your knowledge?
>Rick, in particular, believes so strongly
>in his opinion
I'm sure that those whose individual identities have been subsumed by the
the McDonna mentality -- and I'm not saying that either of these posters,
has, I'll leave that problem as an exercise for the student -- would not like
to see folks with strong opionions, especially strong opinions that run counter
to theirs.
>about M that he's willing to prejudge (to list a few things)
>the credits on her albums, the artistic merit of acts whose music he's
>never heard (I'm referring to Maverick records), her acting ability, and
>her motives for her career.
That's about it. No denying it. Or, to put it from my point of view, I'm
willing to view all these things ("prejudge") them with the same healthy,
or again from the fanatics' point of view, unhealthy, scepticism. Nope,
I don't believe everything I read, do you?
>BTW, he's not the only one.
Oh my gosh! This couldn't be! Someone else who doesn't think McDonna is the
the bees knees of pop music. [OBPOPMUSIC FLAME: As if this is something to
be proud of.]
>> With discussions of Madonna, Prince, and Debbie, you will say anything
>> regardless of whether or not it has a grain of truth to it just to raise
>> your opinion and degrade other people's opinion.
This in fact seems to be the MO of the McDonna fans. There have been lots
and lots of comments which some folks might take as nasty insults, but
for the fact that they came from the mouths of McDonna fans.
My opinions are merely opinions, as I stated repeatedly. I attempt to offer
different paradigns (you can shoot me for using the p word) with which the
woman you view as a goddess or pop savior or whatever may be viewed as yet
another money-grubbing capitalist. She's incredibly rich. She's a pop
singer. She reeks of manufactured controversy over age-old problems. Which
do you think it is more likely that she is? Capitalist or artist?
--
Rick Kleffel*System Administrator*E-Mu Systems, Scotts Valley, Ca*ri...@emu.com*
Tom Wu
>
> I offered no facts, since I don't spend my free time immersed in the life
[snip]
> In this debate, I've tried to offer reasons that the point of view that
> "McDonna is an empty product, full of sound and money, signifying nothing",
> is in fact a reasonable and understandable point of view, which of course,
> is something that's *way* beyond the understanding of most McDonna fans.
It's a point of view, granted, but why should we believe it? You yourself
just stated that it's an opinion, backed by neither facts nor evidence.
You can express your opinion all day till your keyboard breaks, but you
won't sway anyone without evidence.
> fans is this: Where are the facts to support that she writes all the songs
> she is credited for? So far, all you've offered is assertions. I offer
> that her name on the credit is not enough. Do you have something beyond this?
Innocent until proven guilty. Milli Vanilli's behavior cannot be
construed as either acceptable or commonplace. They have gotten what
they deserved. Madonna, a much more public and controversial figure,
has not been accused of the same. Why accuse just Madonna? Why not
go ahead and accuse everybody in the music industry of faking their
credits? Or were you going to get to that later? :-)
> I simply offered a suggestion that would readily explain why her name appears
> on the song to which she may have contributed nothing. What you're doing
> is dismissing my hypothesis without offering any evidence of your own.
Bingo! Boy, you learn fast!
My evidence: Madonna has credits on the album.
Your evidence: Well, that doesn't prove anything.
So it's a credibility issue. While I don't believe everything I read,
I find the album credits more credible than you. Back yourself up and
you might have a chance at changing my mind.
> Are you denying that:
>
> 1. Big name stars put their name on material they never co-wrote by virtue of
> their being big stars? Can you say "MILLI VANILLI"?
As I stated earlier, that's "guilt by association". Doesn't work.
> 2. McDonna put her name on material she never wrote, by virtue of her being
> a big star?
Possible, but I don't have reason to believe it.
> 3. That it is possible that McDonna might have put her name on a song to which
> she contributed nothing, without your knowledge?
Possible but unlikely. The risks are too great. Witness your own example,
Milli Vanilli.
> >about M that he's willing to prejudge (to list a few things)
> >the credits on her albums, the artistic merit of acts whose music he's
> >never heard (I'm referring to Maverick records), her acting ability, and
> >her motives for her career.
>
> That's about it. No denying it. Or, to put it from my point of view, I'm
> willing to view all these things ("prejudge") them with the same healthy,
But that's the problem. You haven't viewed them *at all*. You admitted
never hearing the music of any Maverick artists yet you were willing to
condemn them as, how did you put it, "vacuous acts to numb the brain".
Your words, not mine.
> do you think it is more likely that she is? Capitalist or artist?
Both. They aren't mutually exclusive.
--
Thomas Wu "My motherboard just had daughtercards."
Internet: t...@mtgzfs3.att.com ** Printed on 100% recycled electrons **