Is Joe Jackson Homophobic?
Robert Christopher Chesnavich
However, on his most popular album "Night & Day" (which produced the
song "Steppin' Out"), he has a song which bother me. The song is called
"Real Men"; it's the third song of four on the B-side. The lyrics
trouble me because it is about homosexual men. The problem is that I
can't figure out whether he's saying something against them or in their
defense. If anybody who knows this song, or Joe Jackson, or would just
like to take a stab at it would do do, it would be appreciated.
"Real Men"
Take you mind back,
I don't know when.
Sometime when it always seemed to be
Just us and them.
Girls that wore pink,
And boys that wore blue,
Boys had always grown up
into men like me and you.
What's a man now?
What's a man mean?
Is he rough or is he rugged,
Is he cultural and clean?
Now it's all changed;
It's got to change more,
'Cause we think it's getting better
But nobody's really sure.
And so it goes, go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are.
See the nice boys,
Dancing in pairs,
Golding earring, golden tan, and
<blowing?> in their hair.
Sure they're all straight
Straight as a line.
All the gays are macho.
Can't you see their leather shine?
You don't want to sound dumb,
Don't want to offend.
So don't call me a faggot
Not unless you are a friend.
Then if you're tall,
And handsome and strong,
You can wear the uniform
And I can play along.
And so it goes, go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are.
Time to get scared.
Time to change plans.
Don't know how to treat a lady
Don't know how to be a man.
Time to admit
What you call defeat.
'Cause there's women running past you now
And you just drag your feet.
Man makes a gun!
Man goes to war!
Man can kill and man can drink and
Man can take a whore.
Kill all the blacks.
Kill all the reds.
And if there's war between the sexes
Then they'll be no people left.
And so it goes, go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are.
The first two verses don't seem to have any tone except a slight
anti-gay tone when he asks "What's a man now?"
The second two verses seem very anti-gay, although that makes me wonder
if he's actually patronizing those who are anti-gay.
The third two don't seem pro-gay, but they seem pro-sense in a sense.
It doesn't seem conclusive either way, but I can't believe he would
simply put a factual song about gays on his album without saying
something.
Any guesses people?
-Rob "RAIN MAN" Chesnavich
Jay Cagle
either gay or bi.
This could explain the reason for this song. :-)
I remember someone quoting the lines "So don't call me a faggot / Not
unless you are a friend" and saying that one of his albums (presumedly
this one) was basically thought of as his coming out album.
Hopefully this won't deter you from your enjoyment of his music. I
can't tell from the tone of your post.
Here are some comments on the lyrics...
(Remember these are just my interpretations. If you don't like to see
lyrics picked apart, then stop reading now.)
> "Real Men"
> Take your mind back,
> I don't know when.
> Sometime when it always seemed to be
> Just us and them.
> Girls that wore pink,
> And boys that wore blue,
> Boys had always grown up
> into men like me and you.
> What's a man now?
> What's a man mean?
> Is he rough or is he rugged,
> Is he cultural and clean?
> Now it's all changed;
> It's got to change more,
> 'Cause we think it's getting better
> But nobody's really sure.
It sounds like he's saying when he was little it was easy: there were
boys and there were girls. Boys grew up to be men - straight men -
meaning no one ever grew up into a gay man. Of course that's not
true, but I think what he's saying is that when he was young you never
heard of openly gay men.
In the second verse he's saying that now it's not so clear what a man
is (i.e. now there are publicly gay men). Sounds like he's commenting
on the fact that society is getting more tolerant of gays, but that
more has to be done.
> And so it goes, go round again
> But now and then we wonder who the real men are.
> See the nice boys,
> Dancing in pairs,
> Golding earring, golden tan, and
> <blowing?> in their hair.
> Sure they're all straight
> Straight as a line.
> All the gays are macho.
> Can't you see their leather shine?
I think here he's making fun of certain gays and the images they cling
to. 1) Cute young things who obsess over their looks, and who spend
all their time going to clubs and dancing. 2) Gay men who wear
leather to show how macho they are (despite the fact that they're
gay). NOTE: I am not denigrating people who fall into these
categories; I'm just trying to interpret what he's saying.
> You don't want to sound dumb,
> Don't want to offend.
> So don't call me a faggot
> Not unless you are a friend.
> Then if you're tall,
> And handsome and strong,
> You can wear the uniform
> And I can play along.
The third and fourth lines refer to the fact that when a straight
person calls someone gay a "faggot" it's usually meant as an insult.
But it's alright for someone gay ("a friend") to call someone else gay
a faggot.
It sounds like, in the remaining lines, he's again talking about
image problems -- that if you are straight acting, masculine, etc. we
can be friends (or lovers?). But no fats or fems, etc.
Better yet -- I think he's saying that you can wear the uniform of the
straight acting gay and no one will know, and that I'll play along all
not out you.
> And so it goes, go round again
> But now and then we wonder who the real men are.
> Time to get scared.
> Time to change plans.
> Don't know how to treat a lady
> Don't know how to be a man.
> Time to admit
> What you call defeat.
> 'Cause there's women running past you now
> And you just drag your feet.
Sounds like he's talking to someone who's gay but doesn't want to
admit it to himself.
> Man makes a gun!
> Man goes to war!
> Man can kill and man can drink and
> Man can take a whore.
> Kill all the blacks.
> Kill all the reds.
> And if there's war between the sexes
> Then they'll be no people left.
> And so it goes, go round again
> But now and then we wonder who the real men are.
And here attacking the societal image of men.
I think the whole song is about the images of men -- the trouble with
societal images and expectations of men, and the difficulty gay men
have because of them. Not all of it makes sense as a whole.
Anyway, just some of my thoughts.
My roommate told me that this was a big song when it came out. I'd be
curious as to other people's impressions of it.
Hmmm. I may have to look into getting this album now...I really like
"Stepping Out".
Erland Sommarskog
>Joe Jackson in the last few years has become one of my favorite artists.
>However, on his most popular album "Night & Day" (which produced the
>song "Steppin' Out"), he has a song which bother me. The song is called
>"Real Men"; it's the third song of four on the B-side. The lyrics
>trouble me because it is about homosexual men. The problem is that I
>can't figure out whether he's saying something against them or in their
>defense. If anybody who knows this song, or Joe Jackson, or would just
>like to take a stab at it would do do, it would be appreciated.
There was a good interpretation in another article, and I don't
have much to supplement it with. (Although that poster believed
that Joe Jackson was gay or bi. He may be the latter, but there are
two many songs like "Is She Really Going Out With Him", "Fools
in Love" and "Be Muy Number Two" that I would believe that he
would be gay.) I don't think it is right to take the song homo-
phobic. You can also compare with "Fit" and "Pretty Boys" on
"Beat Crazy".
It seems like the song is from a homosexual's perspective and
tries to describe the problem of identity a homosexual might
have. He might not always feel like "a real man".
--
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
One likes to believe in the spirit of muzak.
Jeff Beck
>Joe Jackson in the last few years has become one of my favorite artists.
>However, on his most popular album "Night & Day" (which produced the
>song "Steppin' Out"), he has a song which bother me. The song is called
>"Real Men"; it's the third song of four on the B-side. The lyrics
>trouble me because it is about homosexual men. The problem is that I
>can't figure out whether he's saying something against them or in their
>defense. If anybody who knows this song, or Joe Jackson, or would just
>like to take a stab at it would do do, it would be appreciated.
Well, I'll give it a shot. I have never heard the song, but the lyrics
are what are relevant here.
>"Real Men"
>Take you mind back,
>I don't know when.
>Sometime when it always seemed to be
>Just us and them.
>Girls that wore pink,
>And boys that wore blue,
>Boys had always grown up
>into men like me and you.
This verse sounds like he is somewhat confused and disenchanted about
all of the gay people. Not that he has anything against them, but he
is doesn't like having to deal with more than two "sexualities".
Those being men who like women and women who like men. Now, there would
be a total of four or even five, if you count bi-. It sounds like
it just threw a wrench into his way of thinking.
"Back when men were men and women were women". I'm sure you've all
heard that phrase before.
>What's a man now?
>What's a man mean?
>Is he rough or is he rugged,
>Is he cultural and clean?
>Now it's all changed;
>It's got to change more,
>'Cause we think it's getting better
>But nobody's really sure.
This verse seems to support the basic theme of the first. It seems that
at least part of his definition of "men" includes their sexual tendencies.
In other words, part of "being a man" means that you like women. There are
stereotypical definitions of men: 1. Being "rough and rugged", kindof
like the John Wayne type. 2. Being a "dream guy", ie. well-educated,
suave,...a "respectable" man, the kind that would respect a lady, etc.
It seems that the 3rd. and 4th. lines reference this.
The last four lines seem to imply that this is no longer true and that
he is not sure if this is good or bad.
>And so it goes, go round again
>But now and then we wonder who the real men are.
This verse just seems like he is saying that
you can't recognize "men" anymore because he is not considering
gay men to be men because they don't fit into his
definition of a man.
>See the nice boys,
>Dancing in pairs,
>Golding earring, golden tan, and
><blowing?> in their hair.
>Sure they're all straight
>Straight as a line.
>All the gays are macho.
>Can't you see their leather shine?
This verse is a simple description of stereotypical gay men from his
point of view. But the end sounds sarcastic, at least the last four
lines. Paraphrased, "Yeah, sure, they're all straight ....straight as
a line". It sounds like that's what he meant.
>You don't want to sound dumb,
>Don't want to offend.
>So don't call me a faggot
>Not unless you are a friend.
This is pretty good. Lots of times it seems that when referring to some
kind of a minority, people don't use deroggatory terms like "faggot",
"nigger", etc., but sometimes *will* use them jokingly with people
who fall into that category and who are those friends. I have seen it
happen. Men and women do it. Most of you have probably heard men
making sarcastic jokes about women in front of them in some sort of
good humor. "Damn women drivers :-)", etc. Women have done the same,
"too bad men can't keep it up for more than 2 min.", etc.
>Then if you're tall,
>And handsome and strong,
>You can wear the uniform
>And I can play along.
What uniform? The "uniform" of a man without *really* being one?
I think that's what he meant, maybe. "I can play along" probably
means that he can "play along" with the gay man's charade of being
a "man" (by his definition). In other words, he can just pretend
that the guy is a man. This sounds anti-gay to me.
>And so it goes, go round again
>But now and then we wonder who the real men are.
Same as
above.
>Time to get scared.
>Time to change plans.
>Don't know how to treat a lady
>Don't know how to be a man.
>Time to admit
>What you call defeat.
>'Cause there's women running past you now
>And you just drag your feet.
Now, who is this verse directed at? Gays perhaps? Straight people?
Probably gay people. It sounds like he is talking about...no, maybe
it is directed at straight people. the first two lines could be
homophobic. The 2nd. and 3rd. could refer to the prementioned confusion
that comes from men not fitting into his definition of "men".
"What *you* call defeat"...the "you* is important. It implies that
it is someone else's views. Defeat in what? Keeping gay people
down? Now they cannot be discriminated against and are considered
to be like anyone else. Possibly. The last two lines probably
are referring to gay men as women. They say that straight people
are getting beaten out by "women" (gay men) and stereotypical views
of many men are that they should all be better than women in most
things.
>Man makes a gun!
>Man goes to war!
>Man can kill and man can drink and
>Man can take a whore.
>Kill all the blacks.
>Kill all the reds.
>And if there's war between the sexes
>Then they'll be no people left.
The first four lines imply he is referring to his definition of a "man".
"Man can take a whore" implies a male having sex with a female, so he
is not including gay men here. A war between the sexes could mean between
straight people and gay people. In which case, since gay men are males
it would wind up killing both straight people and gay people.
>And so it goes, go round again
>But now and then we wonder who the real men are.
Same thing here.
He is confused.
>The first two verses don't seem to have any tone except a slight
>anti-gay tone when he asks "What's a man now?"
The anti-gay thing about the first verses and the whole song for
that matter, is that he is defining gay men to be women. He is
defining people based on their sexual preferences, rather than on
their sexual organs.
>The second two verses seem very anti-gay, although that makes me wonder
>if he's actually patronizing those who are anti-gay.
I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. See above.
--
******************************************************************************
* Jason Bold - Madison,WI= [(rutgers||ames)!uwvax||att!nicmad]!astroatc!bold *
* "A strawberry mind, a body that's built for two" - Michael Hedges *
******************************************************************************
Alan McNeely
>Also sprach Robert Christopher Chesnavich (rc...@andrew.cmu.edu):
>>trouble me because it is about homosexual men. The problem is that I
>>can't figure out whether he's saying something against them or in their
>>defense. If anybody who knows this song, or Joe Jackson, or would just
>>like to take a stab at it would do do, it would be appreciated.
>
>There was a good interpretation in another article, and I don't
>have much to supplement it with. (Although that poster believed
>that Joe Jackson was gay or bi. He may be the latter, but there are
>two many songs like "Is She Really Going Out With Him", "Fools
>in Love" and "Be Muy Number Two" that I would believe that he
>would be gay.) I don't think it is right to take the song homo-
>phobic. You can also compare with "Fit" and "Pretty Boys" on
>"Beat Crazy".
I always interpreted it as a homosexual's frustration with the
expectations of society. He knows how he feels, but he can't
shake the values that were drilled in his head as he grew up. I
think it's a positive song - not homophobic at all.
Also: "Be My Number Two" has no references to males or females, does
it? In this way it's similar to "A Slow Song." Most people would
assume it was a Male/Female relationship being described, but I
don't think there's anything in the lyrics to force it to be that way.
I once noticed that Joe's first four original albums all had references:
Look Sharp: In Sunday Papers, he says "If you want to know about the
gay politician" and a background voice goes "Yeah!"
I'm The Man: In Don't Wanna Be Like That, something about centerfolds
leaving him "cold, and that ain't 'cause I'm a fag."
Beat Crazy: Fit, already mentioned.
Night and Day: Real Men.
Oh well. Who knows. It seems to have stopped being an issue with him
since then.
Alan McNeely
mcn...@bigb.columbia.ncr.com
Bill Dennen
Australian Rugby team... after their incredible triumph a few days ago...
So, I'm not quite sure if he's homophobic. Maybe he's saying that no matter
what your sexual preference is: you're still a real man.
I don't know. It's a good song, though!
-Bill
the machman
>If you've heard Joe Jackson's LIVE album, he dedicates this song to the
>Australian Rugby team... after their incredible triumph a few days ago...
>So, I'm not quite sure if he's homophobic. Maybe he's saying that no matter
>what your sexual preference is: you're still a real man.
i'm sure joe jackson is definitely NOT homophobic; in fact, he's more than
likely quite homosympathetic, if you know what i mean. just listen to some
of his songs and you'll get the idea (for example "Real Men" from Night and
Day).
-- the machman